>While having one side be the angels and one side be the demons isn't exactly good writing, giving the angels a handful of token demons and vice versa is far worse. When you pick it apart, it's not actually any more nuanced or complex. It's just more convoluted and nonsensical. For true moral complexity, each side should have universally shared beliefs, or at least loyalties, that bind them together, with a wide spectrum of people on each side. For one side to be "good" and the other to be "evil," the author must demonstrate that it's these motivations themselves that are ultimately noble or harmful, not the individuals fighting for them. For example, the existence of people like Rommel or Speer (even if we ignore the awful things both of them did) does not make the Nazi cause itself any less monstrous.
Discuss
>>44044758
What does that mean
>Nazis
>Monstrous
>>44044758
I kinda disagree....
Angels? Absolutely. They are suppose to be envoys and enforcers of their gods, right?
Demons on the other hand have always been depicted as some sort of free thinking cunt rag who just does malevolent shit because he feels like it. There's no upstairs management to blame for their actions. Or 'downstairs' in their case.
So, really, all you technically have to do is separate the demons as something much more defiled than a murderous human who might do exactly the same thing given the opportunity.
>>44044836
I meant metaphorical angels and demons.
>>44044970
Same deal, if I understand you correctly anyway...
Good people tend to gravitate to higher purpose, higher calling, and selflessness for whatever reason, and become champions in that respect.
'Evil' people tend to actively depose those purposes and instead rely on their own desires and gratification, and some even their own convoluted and misshapen dreams. Hitler himself didn't want to just burn it all to the ground, he had a genuine plan for the world.
>>44044758
I think this is ultimately pretty spot-on, but like all prescriptive thought of this sort I don't think it's 100% accurate. For instance, a character on the "side" of the heroic faction who is using his position to profit for himself personally and harm the heroes' friends, but can't simply be killed due to his position, is creating good conflict and not necessarily muddying the waters.
A good example of "angels with demons and demons with angels" is I think, the anime Legend of the Galactic Heroes, which does a fantastic job portraying the two sides in that series' war as one of opposing but not necessarily morally evil societies drawn into conflict with one another, both sides receiving their fair share of goodies and baddies.
>>44044758
I agree with you, OP. Best way to make a compelling character-driven narrative is to have good people connected to ideologically separate groups and forced to ally with bad people.=
>>44044758
Who are you quoting?
>>44045201
>For instance, a character on the "side" of the heroic faction who is using his position to profit for himself personally and harm the heroes' friends, but can't simply be killed due to his position, is creating good conflict and not necessarily muddying the waters.
I think we agree, actually. I was trying to express two semi-related ideas and I don't think I did a good enough job differentiating them:
1. Having one or two token "bad guys" on the side of good is not the same thing as moral complexity, for the same reason that tokenism isn't the same as diversity. You should show a wide range of people on both sides, even if one kind of person is more likely to be attracted to one cause than another.
2. It's the aims and beliefs of each faction that ultimately condemn or vindicate them, not the motivations and conduct of individuals. The good guys aren't the good guys because they're good people, but because of what they fight for.
>>44044758
Makes sense to me.
>>44044758
>>44045014
There are many who have designs upon this world
And dream of wild and vast reformations
I have heard them talking in their sleep
Of elegant mutations
And cunning annihilations
I have heard them whispering in the corners of crooked houses
And in the alleys and narrow back streets of this crooked creaking universe
Which they with their new designs were made straight and sound
But each of these new and ill conceived designs
Is deranged in it's heart
For they see this world as if it were alone and original
And not as only one of count with others
Whose nightmares all precede
Like a hideous garden grown from a single seed
I have heard these dreamers talking in their sleep
And I stand waiting for them
As at the top of a darkened flight of stairs
They know nothing of me
And none of the secrets of my special plan
While I know every crooked creaking step of theirs
>>44045839
Current 93, how strangely appropriate.
8/10, would approve of again
