How do you add bird people/characters capable of flight into a game, /tg/?
It's seriously hard to design encounters, dungeons, or even just general storylines if one or more of the players can fly? It's the same reason why I restrict or just erase spells like 'flight' entirely, it's too powerful, so how would a race without limitations on their flying abilities even be able to function?
>>44037057
Well, first off, you can add bird people to your setting whenever you feel like, you only need to design for it when somebody actually plays a bird character. Then it just comes down to designing for the party. Give the bird character some things to do that only a bird character can do just like how you would give everyone else something to do. Don't bother making puzzles for people who can't fly if you already have somebody that can fly as a prerequisite.
>>44037057
Flight is actually pointless in most dungeons, because the ceilings are actually rather short(most of the time)
Flight becomes OP in Wilderness encounters.
The easiest way to ban non-magical flight, is to say that flying is exhausting, or you have to turn/maintain forward motion.
It doesn't work for shit in DnD because flight is completely broken.
Mostly because the scaling of Climb, Jump and other physical feats have no real scaling.
If you are jumping forward, 1 skill rank = 30cm, this has somewhat working scaling. Except it turns into a 1/3 scaling of just running, which again would scale with flight.
If you are jumping up, 4 skill ranks = 30cm.
A flying creature, even if it will descend each round towards 1 feet over ground, would still have the equal to 50 ranks of jump just moving upwards.
So flying creatures are broken merely by existing alongside such a broken skill system
>>44037359
>flying trumps climbing for moving upwards
No shit?
>>44037377
Seeing how many ranks flying movement is worth? Its not that obvious is that much more effective.
Its worth more than 3x its scaling in Jump, and a full flying movement is equal to a 240 skill check of Jump.
Its insane.
>>44037388
The purpose of the flight skill is to show how well a character can function when they get the MAGICAL POWER OF FLIGHT
Of course its going to be a huge number, its not something you are normally capable of doing. Flight isn't jumping with your normal weight and restriction, what the hell are you even on about?
>>44037388
Again, that flying trumps jumping for aerial movement is taken as given. It's FLYING.
I think the problem is perhaps that flight is too easy an option. Should either have penalties or a high cost. If you want to be a flying race, you have to pay for that in a huge way.
Why gliding is used a compromise for winged races I guess.
>>44037412
That skills in DND does not scale for shit.
Flight should be worth 35DC of Jump, not 240.
Flying isnt OP because it exists, its OP because its worth more than a tenfold of normal skills.
>>44037443
Because it's FLYING. It's unlocked late game and yes, basically shits all over jumping and climbing for moving upwards because it is typically free magical movement through the air.
This is like complaining that your lategame Tiger fucks over early-mid game cats and hamsters.
No. Fucking. Shit. It's for the point where your character has a pet Tiger- I mean magical flight.
To actually further discussion, there should perhaps be different forms of flight. Magical flight is basically just super-movePlus as it is currently.
But then you get Winged flight, Mounted flight and say, Artifice flight. All of which have various penalties and effects. Winged flight takes effort and concentration, plus wings are huge targets.
Mounted flight is using a flying mount. Mounts can be attacked independently and may have their own movement preference. Less personal penalties as winged but require a specific skill to operate effectively and require a healthy, rested and fed flying mount.
Artifice flight uses a magical device to fly, which needs to be operated while in the air and may require fuel. It's hard to concentrate on combat while operating a broom.
Probably overthinking, but I'm just spitballing here. Seeing what sticks.
>>44037057
You need severe limitations on their flight. They can only do it for so long, or they can only fly while flying (no "I fly and then shoot them with my bow"), or something.
With unlimited flight, they'd need to be penalized hard elsewhere to make up for it as a playable race.
>>44037523
>It's unlocked late game and yes, basically shits all over jumping and climbing
Please learn reading comprehension. It doesn't "shit over jumping and climbing", it "makes any physical skill checks completely redundant".
Compared to a DC of just 70ish to find a untraceable object with Spot & Listen.
>>44037334
>>44037057
As the pic shows, the creatures still have 4 limbs: if their "arms" are wings, then their manipulatory limbs must be their feet and/or beak. Since they need at least a leg to stand on, and because it's generally hard to adapt a limb that' say the same time optimum for fine manipulation and optimum for mobility AND bearing the body's weight; they're very limited regarding precision manual work and land movement.
Theoretically these limitations don't apply while flying but when you fly you must move forward, manouver etc so you can't exactly deactivate a trap with both your feethands while floating in place with your wings; for instance.
Spells with somatic components would be limited just the same: you can't cast a somathic Spell and move the same round since you need one feethand to stand.
Shouldn't be to hard. If the mission is to commit a covert murder at a masquerade ball flying won't help too much, and neither will it help much in a cramped necromancer's cave complex. Besides, anything human-sized that flies will be slow, have a wingspan of some 6-7 meters, and likely be forced to lift off with a running start.
If they're not made of metal then they are surprisingly fragile.
Make a random effect table for crits, enjoy broken wing'd characters walking about while their wings heal.
>>44037546
Hummingbirds.
Casting somatic with your feet-talons.
Basically, you'd be playing a Pixie race. If you've got a Pixie in your party then ... well, you just gotta adapt as a DM as normal.
>>44037546
They could have claw-wings like bats.
>>44037546
>if their "arms" are wings, then their manipulatory limbs must be their feet and/or beak.
Naw, if they have pterosaur type wings they get to to have a thumb and two fingers, or possibly three if their pinkies constituted the outer wings instead of ring fingers.
>>44037546
Okay, I hear what you're saying but the third post has a dragon on it.
Six limbed races exist in D&D.
I like the idea of a winged race that uses it's wings as pseudoarms on the ground and uses it's feet while in the air as a bird does though. Sounds workable.
>>44037608
>>44037614
>>44037618
>>44037636
People, i know it's not the only option; however the OP fears a flying race would be too strong and wanted a way to make a race with no limitations on their flight function.
That was my take on how to do it.
>>44037706
Might fit in your setting, but I'd just do a huge con penalty and make crits have a good chance of maiming wings for a period of time.
>>44037706
Bro, I am OP and I suggested the wing claws.
I just made the thread for the same reason as why it is hard to make an undead race; it becomes very difficult to think up interesting dungeons and stuff because they can bypass much of it. Undead a more extreme example then bird person, but still relevant.
>>44037706
>>44037846
Give them hollow bones and veins through their feathers, like actual birds.
If you hit them, they will break.
>>44037057
Well you see...
There's this MMO called Guild Wars, I basically just ripped the Tengu from that. Flavored down a little.
>>44037910
>veins through their feathers, like actual birds.
There's only blood in the feathers when they're just growing out.
>>44037057
I was planning on adding bird/bat people to my Adventurer Conqueror King game, actually. And having them probably replace the elves. It's easy to say that the whole "humanoid and big," deal means that humanoid creatures capable of flight are probably clumsier and slower than similarly sized but totally avian/flight adapted creatures.
In the D&D game i'm in we fluffed our druid casting while flying around as a bird as intricate air maneuvers that require more time than your average casting. Basically his cast time is doubled but he gets a slight AC bonus and a 1-in-10 chance for incoming attacks to miss, akin to being in a fog cloud
>>44037523
I think that's a pretty good way to go about balancing things.
If you give characters an innate ability that normally requires lategame characters to achieve, balance it out by making it unfavorable in enough situations that it couldnt be abused, and give characters enough of a weakness to balance out the advantage.
of course, then you risk falling into the "pet-race/pet-class" trap.
>>44038781
Honestly, I'm not sure D&D could support a flying race. Flying spells are just made for higher level characters.
You could maybe patch things with a higher racial power curve, everyone gets something. Perhaps most of the race can only glide and they gain flight later.
But really, if you want to do it right you'd have to rebuild a fair bit from the ground up, likely including flight as a whole.
>>44039042
I think it could work with a custom setting/campaign and a DM who's willing to bend the game to accommodate it, but you're too right in saying that D&D as it is now won't really work with a flying race.
Too many things that need to be changed to make flight balanced, and you'd have to change quite a few things to make it feel like flying isn't just tacked on.
>>44037846
Make them Large,
To where they have to crawl in dungeons.
Or underground, or in castles, or caves, or cities.
It's a lot more balanced if all they can do is overland flight.
Large wingspan is the same thing.
>>44037057
Altitude limit.
>>44040064
Sounds like Fantasy Craft's Drakes.
Here are some badass bird people
>>44040850
those are concepts for what >>44037944 mentioned.
Tengu are pretty cool, they can't fly though.
>>44040850
>>44037846
So give them arm-wings, but make a blanket rule saying they can't do anything else while flying. What's the problem here?
>but verbal-only spells
It's a blanket rule for the sake of balance. If a player insists on "making sense", inform him that his wings are now 30 feet long, and he can't use them without running in a straight line for momentum.
>>44045635
or make him take twice as long to use them, or other penalties. I imagine if you're flapping about, you've only got so much breath, right?
though on the other hand, I wouldnt let them just take off mid battle without a running start in most cases, in the exceptions I'd give them super fragile bones to make them light enough to be able to do that.
I guess in hindsight it really all depends on how players are expected to play them, right?
>>44037057
If it works with the storyline and setting you just do.. Be creative, find interesting pros and cons to play around with and challenge the character, the players and build natural events through out the story based on the properties of any character. Friend played a fairydragon in a BRP game and it was awesome.
>It's seriously hard to design encounters..
Maybe if you're stuck playing D&D with its rigid system of rules and board game playstyle, but most other RPGs would have no issues with it.
It's not about success, it's not about solving a combat and gaining loot and experience from it (then it's a resource managmenet board game).
It's all about the stories and the players experiences. Make it fun. Remind everyone that you're all there to make sure every one has fun together.
