So at what point (whether edition, certain book or expansion, change of staff) did 40k became objectively worse than its previous history?
>>44021355
When they retconned Ol' Pius.
>>44021355
When they decided to cater more to miniature collectors than tabletop wargamers despite knowing they have such a large audience there are tournaments held, and so since they care less and less about the mechanics they keep making it more and more unbalanced schlock.
In short...when did you start needing glue for something smaller than your thumb...on purpose?
>>44021355
40k was never good to begin with.
>>44021355
After 4th edition when they started stripping armies of the plethoras of options they had. Remember when when chaos lords could get non-artefact daemon weapons? How about unmarked daemon princes? Or when walking hive tyrants could get a 2+ save?
>>44021928
It's also the same time writers started circle jerking/shitting on armies they did or didn't like respectively and changing the fluff. Look at Ultramarines and Necrons and the shift in power between factions.
>>44021355
When Chapter Approved died.
>>44021355
Read Rogue Trader. Sure, it's nostalgic, but is it actually good? No.
Second Edition was worse.
Third Edition was mildly better.
Things improved until Sixth, when it plateaued.
Seventh has tried to make it a competitive wargame, rather than a fun one where 3/4 of said fun is building your army.
>>44021355
I think around 4th. That's the point where things became less fluffy and they started limiting options and focusing on models.
Things have stepped back up since then, but whether it's as good as the earliest editions is tough to say.
Personally, I'm still looking to homebrew rules for some of the new factions and try running them in the 2e rules. Not sure how to best do point values though.
>>44022153
>Seventh has tried to make it a competitive wargame
What? Seventh murdered competitive 40K.
>>44022441
He didn't say it was a successful attempt
>>44022463
True, though I don't think it was even an attempt. Even GW can't fuck up this bad. I guess.
I am still curious on whether or not dawn of war caused the downfall of 40k
>>44022153
>things improved until 6th
>implying 5th was good
5th was literally everyone power gaming to the max with "free melta guns" space wolves, "I kill everything with blood lance" blood angels, "we are the best at everything" grey knights, or "130pts vendetta" spam imperial guard
>>44023354
good times
You'll have people say that 5th edition was the best and it got worse from there. Then you'll have people who say that 5th edition was when it became shit and 3rd or 4th was the best. To me 1st and maybe 2nd edition was where it was at. What makes 40k so unique is its parody Sci Fi style. It took a concept initially made big by Judge Dredd to a whole new level cover not just cyberpunk but all of Sci Fi. But then when it decided to forgo the parody style for grim dark that's when things got worse because then instead of having a unique style 40k decided to start copying off other fiction stuff and started having shitty ripoffs of other Sci Fi.
From a sheer war gaming perspective 40k was the best as Epic because Epic and its Fantasy counterpart Warmaster were Warhammer at its most tactical and honestly fluffy, too.
>>44022153
What is bad about Rogue Trader/1st? Let's forget the nostalgia factor for a minute here. When looking at it for what it is from today's perspective, Rogue Trader has all of what makes 40k unique rather than the many things it ripped off from elsewhere. Rules wise it is unique because there was a combination of both Roleplaying and Wargaming happening and it did it the right because instead of having poster boy Herohammer bullshit like we have today the role playing had the actual people involved. We as players were like the Rogue Traders. Today there isn't that high a level of real player involvement like there was back then. Hell back then you most of the time did need a third player whose job was something in between a war gaming referee and an RPG Dungeon Master. The only thing genuinely objectively worse back then was the quality of the models themselves cuz it's 80s shit.
>>44023354
Is there an edition that just had bad core rules and wasn't ruined by the codexes?
>>44023458
From what my friends have told me, fifth with melee was basically like seventh with shooting. There was assault from deepstrike all over the place, shooting armies were generally tabled and folks like Tau were at their lowest point ever.
On the flip side you had armies like Blood Angels and Grey Knights being top tier (funny how things change). And they were annoyingly so, with Blood Angels murdering the fuck out of everything before it could fight back and Grey Knights being unkillable or some shit.
I remember somebody said you could randomise grey Knights actions each turn and still win easily, though that was probably exaggerated.
But again Dark Eldar got their huge update this edition and were apparently really fun and powerful to play.
>>44023458
didnt 6th and 7th buttfucked assaults? theres no real reason to have an assault orientated army (outside of the bizarre khorne dameonkin)
4th heavily favored minimal troops
>>44023626
DE in 5th were definitely top tier
not broken like blood angels or grey knights, but I'd rank them up there with space wolves and IG.
necrons were the weird one out. on one hand they had INSANE builds since their 5th/totally not 6th codex was so wonky. Canoptek and Tesla spam were top tier.
on the other hand their elite infantry were overpriced garbage that made khorne beserkers look downright decent picks
>>44023682
oldcrons sucked dicks.
>we have one troop choice
>and one vehicle
>and one HQ
>and we disappear after you kill half of us
99% of oldcron list was the same, not because of meta, but because they literally had no choices
if you mean the fluff well go suck on a ctan dildo
>>44023447
5th was OK if your army wasn't on the writer's shit list or even great if they liked the faction. But if you liked your fluffy 'nid army, like myself, it was shit. This was the era of Ward and Cruddace, when codex writers played favorites.
>>44023521
6th vehicle rules (aka: get a transport and die from planes)
>>44023521
You forgetting about 3e Rhino rush?
>>44023869
I remember the salt even for those who had anti air
>skyfire=makes your anti air shit BS1 on ground targets
B-B-B-BUT MUH HYDRAS!
and thus leafblower was forever dead
reminder
>>44021355
When it was first conceived.
I started playing in 5th edition, so I like 5th the best, 6th was ok, if a strange change, and 7th alienated me.
Ruleswise I liked 5th the best
Now codex wise, it seems like everything has crazy power creep since late 5th edition.
I started with tau, orks, and tyranids in 5th, each of their codexes werent great. But were fine, 6th edition made things bad for orks. Good for tau, and made hormagaunts horrifying out of synapse, and broke some units until the tyranid codex where they made tyranids underpowered, and boring.
Orks
>old codex worked, assault footslogging army, slow weak ranged, strong flamethrowers and powerful melee.fearless in groups and laugh at morale
>new codex no more fearless, no more of alot of good stuff, need to buy weapons, cant buy this, No more zoggwart, even if he couldnt use spells because BS 0. No more mek shield spam, sucks to be you
Tau before
>pew pew strong
Tau now
>pew pew pew pew pee fuck that unit, i have mecha now whooooo overwatch
Tyranids then
>this is my area. I like this area...and that area...also look out for trygons and those genestealers in that rock
Tyranids before new codex
>see this area. Fuck my area Raaaaaaaaaage chaaaaaaarge take pants, rend, claw haha fuck you.fail morale, tyrant swoops in to auto stop fleeing, continue charging
After codex
>artifacts wut...
>see this area...its mine plz dont kill my syapse plz no...i didnt mean no harm.
>i use parasite of mortrex....a what? Not real haha loser
>you have no spores, but now you do.i lied.
>also fuck genestealers. Ymgarl is a lie.
>and anything in melee fuck that too.
>and you know what, why dont you kill half your own unit.
>also buy more of them
>and fuck you
>>44021355
Formations.
>>44023989
What are you talking about Tau were weak in 5th edition their shootiness was not powerful enough to hold back all the melee from wrecking their faces.
Fuck this topic's really made me realize that Warhammer is like the pop music/Twilight of tabletop. Really fucking popular in its field but shit it's awful.
>>44024056
Its true, the tau were on the low end in 5th edition. Their things just cost a little to much. The 6th edition tau codex was very well put together except for vespid, heavy rail gun broadsides, and smart missile systems.
>>44023934
> mfw my time as a Chaos Player
JUST
FUCK
MY
SHIT
UP
>>44021928
This. Fluff started spiralling during 5e. I dunno when during 5e but it was definitely during 5e. The change in tone between the 5e and 6e main rulebooks is jarring
>>44023913
They could shoot at full BS vs skimmers and such but there was lots of whining. I'd much prefer them to the new Hydras that suck ass even against flyers. Why the fuck did they remove the "ignores jink" saves. It was the only thing they had going for them. Smart players could use actual cover vs them, and they actually felt like real SPAAGs. Now they just suck.
>when Grey Knights were awesome
>>44024277
>5e
For people who started in 3-4e, maybe. To others there was a resurgence of old stuff and return to form in some sense.
I remember when Witch Hunters came out and took a steaming Wardian dump on the fluff of Sisters by making them the errant boys of the Inquisition, for example. And lets not forget 4e Chaos with its "always existed and never". Nor the C'tan, who were the Be'lakors of their day, behind everything.
>>44024056
>>44024132
Let me explain tau vs orks in my experience.
>2 squads of rifles hiding behind cover.
>1 commander and 3 crisis suits with flamers twinlinked. Missile pods.
>hammerhead or 3 broadsides.
>2 tiny squads of carbine tau
Crisis jumping twinlinked flamers taking down half a squad per burst, rifles finishing off squads, or taking their mob rule away carbine tau pin, rinse repeat
Tau vs space marines.
>2 squads of plasma hide behind cover
4 crisis suits 1 commander, missile pods fusion blasters
>2 hammerheads
>3 broadsides.
Optional markerights to help the 1 shots.
One shot captain, psyker, terminators, anything at all.
Maybe all of the 40k players I know are just retarded players, but tau were always near the top of every tourney we did, unless necrons did some bullshit. Or the ork player played kamikaze burna trukks/looted wagons
Only edition I played in was 5th. Bit from what I understand I got into 40k when it was still fresh, and fell out shortly before 6.
I played Deathwing Termies with the 4th Edition DA codex and I was able to beat most of new cheese armies like Blood Angels and Grey Knights. It was fun
>>44024277
Fluff didn't start spiralling due to anything the codexes did. Fluff started spiralling when Black Library started getting taken seriously
when you get down to it
as a GAME....40k was NEVER good
the first few editions were written by a bunch of fantasy mongers who had one too many at the pub
and later editions were written by a bunch of people who tried to appeal to video game players even though they dont know a thing about balance
>>44024154
>>44024378
..God dammit...
>>44023934
Yeah, spacewolves were bullshit all around in 5th. They definitely started shifing Marine costs cheaper and cheaper. Not to mention their psyker power bullshit.
Also
>Missilefang spam
Now instead of just being a Marine offshoot they're just packed full of weird ass shit with their non-stc flyers and wolf chariots and other bizzare shit.
>>44024501
Or, more to the point, when BL just became an extra marketing arm of GW releases, instead of doing their own thing. BL novels were always a bit shit, but when it's a story of a nobody in a big galaxy, their experiences can be chucked to "it's a large galaxy" or just subjective views. But when it's primary characters and the events are canonical, then the problems become greater. Or when it's a quickly slapped together, types by the numbers filler novelization of a release, like a campaign or just a new codex, it's even more jarring.
3rd edition.
>>44024594
> The quality of the new art
Jesus fucking Christ.
>>44024501
The codices did do wrong though. It was belakor's dataslate that gave us the no undivided princes shit.
>>44024670
Pretty sure the daemon codex had already made that impossible. And at the same time gave marks to Furies.
40k is dead
go proxy play warpath or gates of antares
Fluff-3rd went from grimdark to grimderp (overly serious)
Gameplay: bad in 3 and 4 (kind of) better in 5th, back to bad in 7th
Modles are p good tho
>>44024697
Still puts a damper on his "Black Library did everything!" viewpoint. The decline of fluff has been across the board, though steeper with BL perhaps
>>44022153
>Things improved until Sixth
Fuck you. Fifth was trash, and sixth was worse. Making true line of sight a thing is the absolute cancer.
>>44024594
The art on the left looks like something I could find on DeviantArt
The art on the right is also something I could find on DeviantArt, but stuff of that quality is few and far between
>>44021355
Well, personally I played 2nd to 5th and as much as I didn't like 5th, I'd say 6th killed it for me. 3rd and 3.5th generally had the most options, especially with Chapter Approved allowing Kroot/DC/etc. and things like Craftworld armies. Forgeworld did help a bit with Badab War options and the Red Scorpions but in general, I'd say there were more options previously.
>>44024800
Nah, they just did it wrong. The current versions of measuring from any point to any point makes sure you no longer get situations where you can to shot at but can't retaliate. And the change that you can only kill models you can see.
>>44021433
They arent catering to collectors, thats lip service designed to confuse retards.
Are formations catering to collectors. Do collectors buy 6 Razorbacks so they can run the latest cheese? Are strength D designed for collectors? If this game is just beer + pretzels or for fun - then what the fuck is GW doing with this arms race? Why limited editionformation bundles with exclusive rules?
Protip: GW knows exactly what they are doing. The rules and balance drive sales as much or more than pretty models do. Dont fall for the propagandist bullshit. If the game stopped tomorrow, model sales would plummet. They know who their audience is, and they are cleverly playing to them.
>>44021402
Never happened. There never was a retcon. Pius was only ever an in-universe legend invented to inspire the Guard. Everything else is pure fanon.
you know for as much shit as AoS gets
at least the players who play it probably give no fucks about balance, just fun
40k players just cling on to some out of place hope of balance that the game will be like fancy chess
>>44025098
>the players who play it
but the people who played fantasy almost completely abandoned it. Fantasy is dead and AoS is the leper shitting on its grave
>>44023816
Jesus. And people say it's their favorite edition. Giving Codex writers so much power was one of the worst things to have happened to wargaming shit. Too much power to codex writers -> too much power to the miniatures -> the power of the player mattering a lot less so tactical skill starts to get thrown out the window and so does balance
>>44025098
That's bull cuz not enough has been released in AoS to determine balance so there's no room for complaining on that end at the moment. There's only room to complain for sure though at the end of the fact that it's all miniatures and little to no player action.
>>44024154
>infiltrate as a purchasable skill for veterans and characters
>Daemon Weapons
>10 gifts for each patron
Dark Gods, I miss the old days
>>44023447
This. GW used to be proud of the fact that it was bringing together bits of so many different settings and novels as a melting pot of sorts. I don't know if it was always supposed to be a parody, as much as just a bit tongue in cheek, but it used to be a bit more light-hearted, and GW used to know its audience a lot better. Flip through and old White Dwarf, and you can really feel the level of detail and love that used to be in it.
>>44024154
>tfw you will never put a Blastmaster and Sonic Blasters on a Predator tank
>>44025098
The 40k players claiming balance are typically the ones playing Eldar, Necrons, SM, or Tau.
If you accept that 40k's 'gameplay' is a joke - then you devalue those all important tabletop wins. The best solution is to play fluff/themed matches with like monded people, or play HH.
40k as a game had relegated itself almost exclusively to retards. Its unplayable as a casual pickup game.
>>44024594
That atrocity on the left has no place in official 40k books. Defending it by saying "hurrdurr its for paint scheming hurrdurr" is inexcusable. You dont have to use childrens drawings to demonstrate a paint scheme. FW manages to use legitimate illustrations, theres no reason GW should be using this garbage. Shameful shekel-hoarding.
>>44025470
>The 40k players claiming balance are typically the ones playing Eldar, Necrons, SM, or Tau.
This. If you're not one of the "protagonists", you're a punching bag.
That's why I love ork players, they pretty much always play for fun.
>>44024514
Yeah, its always had its shortcomings. But there is so much wrong with its current iteration, you'd have a tough time making a case for any edition being worse than $hoothammer 40k: Formation Edition.
Buy more and bigger kits, and also these few shitty ones if you want a better shot at winning? Who the fuck is still playing this shit? You have tobe either retarded, or hopelessly addicted to 40k to still be ponying up for this travesty.
>>44024594
GW has been trying to go really minimalist for some reason, especially with the mini-dexes.
>>44025577
"Hey, people like that space marine painter on Bolter&Chainsword, let's just copy that for the books. We can just send a cease and desist if they complain"
>>44025671
I get cheap 'nids off eBay, strip the paint, and repaint for my fleet. I just play fluffy lists with my friends and enjoy converting and painting.
As if it's, you know...
a hobby
The better question for this thread is "When did 40k stop being fun for you than in the past and what are you doing to fix that?"
>>44025963
>what are you doing to fix that
30k
>>44025963
It stopped becoming fun for me when I moved and the local scene was very different from my own. Everyone here gets behind the pay to win mentality and what I've built and own literally has no chance on the table to do anything. So it's either dish out money for all new stuff, or continue scooping models every game.
>>44021928
i miss the 3.5e Chaos Codex, where you could give your havok's Champion a Kai Gun and make them even more Killy
>>44022153
Rogue Trader and 2nd were good as small scale skirmish games, it was trying to use them for big battles that they fell apart
well that and reading it being more disjointed than a paraplegic that's fallen down a flight of stairs
>>44022140
this
>>44023458
3 was fairly balanced if you stuck to the army lists in the bbb
>>44025963
>"When did 40k stop being fun for you than in the past and what are you doing to fix that?"
30k, trying out Infinity, trying out Kings Of War, trying to find people to play 1st edition 40k and 3rd edition fantasy with our newer models as after giving every codex a read and experimenting with some rules I found those two to be my favorite in every way, and last but not least hoping GW will bring back Epic/Warmaster.
>>44021355
NEVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
>>44025470
Which is pretty impressive, the biggest company in wargaming currently releases no major products that work as pickup games.
>>44026926
>no pickup rules
Cost of entry has become so prohibitive, 40k doesn't need them ...
OT: The peak of 40k's customer engagament occurred in v3.5, with every rulebook and codex released being objectively better for customers than those that had gone before.
40k's death spiral began in October 2007, with the release of the Gavdex for Chaos Marines. This "streamlined" book signalled that a new production paradigm had been mandated within the company by meddling faggots in upper management who thought The Hobby ought to be all about what THEY wanted. Customer influence ceased to existat this time because fuck you, that's why. Welp ...
The sad dumpster fire that is GW's recent history is a direct result of Kirby killing the Golden Goose by choking it with unwarranted hubris.
So what edition is best for good old HQ and a few troop squads plus a vehicle or two type of play.
No massive games with retarded giant walkers everywhere and no flyers.
>>44027286
Probably older editions like second. That tended to be the more standard sort of game
Nice containment thread, thanks OP
>>44027286
1st or 2nd.
>>44021355
When Forge world stuff and flyers became common place
>>44027286
First or second edition if you like the rulesets. Third or fourth if you prefer something a little closer to the modern incarnation. Play a 500 point combat patrol with third edition rules, and you'll see that the game can be fun, rather than retarded.
>>44027244
I cancelled my subscription to White Dwarf around the time the Gav 'dex was in it. I'd started with the issues where Chaos 3.5 had just come out, and there were all these really interesting, detailed articles from Pete Haines and Andy Chambers, as well as a step-by-step pretty complex 'eavy metal tutorial for Ahriman and Abbadon. Comparing the two really showed how bad things had gotten over the years, and from what I gather the magazine only got worse from there.
>>44027605
You read Gav's rant about how you're stupid for expecting him to make good rules for you and you shouldn't be in the hobby if you can't just houserule everything you want?
http://gavthorpe.co.uk/2009/09/10/differences-of-opinion/
>>44025668
>be me, 15
>Orksforlife.jpg
>1500 points of bikes, buggys and trucks filled with boyz
>play a edgy metal loving chaos player
>takes everything far to seriously
>Spend the whole game speeding round dropping 20 boys onto each of his squads, gunning around and popping APCs. The returning fire from my opponents defilers kills half of my stuff in exchange
>laugh my tits off all game cause orks gotta ork
>barely win
>kid never plays me again cause I was too 'weird'
Mate when I played I just had fun. Some people cant just relax and enjoy the experience, they need to win to have fun. Never will understand them
>>44027682
>http://gavthorpe.co.uk/2009/09/10/differences-of-opinion/
>This approach has two main problems. Firstly, it creates a mindset of false legitimacy. This isn’t just in gaming, it’s in wider society as well. Some people feel entitled to place all responsiblity on the rules-makers (or lawmakers…) with the argument, ‘Well, the rules say I can do it.’ This fundamentally diverts the choices a person makes onto somebody else, absolving them of blame (in their mind). By moving away from a set of rules that tries to legislate for every single possibility, and instead return to the original idea that these books are as much a guide to players as they are rulebooks, we sought to bring back both the responsiblity and the power for players to make the decisions for themselves. They are a framework for players to collect an army of miniature soldiers not a dictat on the way they must do so.
Hilarious.
Does anyone know where I can find scans of White Dwarf from around 1987-1990 time? So like 1st edition 40k 3rd edition Fantasy time.
>>44027682
>>44027902
I'd be more okay with houseruling if they actually had guidelines for what stats and rules were worth what points.
I've heard Nercomunda and second edition had tighter balance and actually followed a system. No idea what it was like, but it sounds perfect for homebrewing.
>>44028051
Nah, man, it's not their jobs to tell you what you can and cannot make. Now pay them $50 for the rules, but don't think you're entitled to receive any actual rules, you shitlord.
>>44028127
It'd be one thing to expect them to spell out points values, which would make homebrewing easy, but I'd see why they'd not want to write it down.
It's another thing entirely to not even have an internal system for how much a 3+ save is worth compared to a 4+
>>44027716
I'd throw my hive fleet against your WAAAAAGH any day, brother
>>44028320
7 years ago, your fleet would have been burnt, chopped and ground into the dust but those days are over for me friend. My Waagh has died down a far bit.
>>44021355
Early 3rd edition was a massive come down from second, though they steadily brought options up to speed and rules in order.
Then there was the ~'06 era of Codices, you remember them mainly as Dark Angels and Chaos Marines. They're why everyone thought the 6th edition codices were fucking amazing.
Then came 6th edition which shoehorned fliers into the main rules, provided little access to viable anti-air, and just all around mucked shit up on that front.
Then came 7th. 7th is a fucking clusterfuck which sticks its foot in a pile of design decisions the company had already learned not to step in during the first 5 years of the century. And makes a pile of nonsensical changes on top of it.
Overall the game has been in a downhill slide since 3.5 and early-mid 4th. It hasn't been steady, there have been upticks, but it keeps sliding and probably will until it's too late.
Then again GW is making some good moves lately, so maybe things will change.Haha, no they won't.
>>44028512
Do you still have your army?
>>44028601
Some where. I had 3, IG(just 2 starter packs that i never go tround to painting), SM (my first I didn't know any better) and ORKS(funny actually the kid I talked about had about ~800 points worth of orks and sold them to me for £40)
Must have spent £450 on it over 2/3 years that I played
>>44025671
The players are the worst. Me and my friend have some good games by virtue of playing standard force org and not spamming formations with the most broken stuff. Impossible to play pick-up games of 40k because everyone insists on feeding the machine and bringing all the obnoxious shit that make the game unfun by virtue of being unkillable (2+ rerolls), untouchable (invisibility) or just formations with boatloads of the most cost-effective units. Meanwhile, if you play the shittier armies against each other using old school force org the game becomes a lot more even.
>>44026234
The reason 30k works is simply because there are no gimmicky xenos and psykers, everyone just has the same crappy land raiders and 3+ spam, so it doesn't feel horribly one-sided unless you're a total idiot. Also lovely Forgeworld models with actual detail instead of overpriced plastic characters or cruddy finecast.
>chinacast
please don't do this btw, yeah it's expensive but fw are genuinely nice guys, their staff is great unlike the gw cardboard cutouts
>>44026468
3rd was shit, but it was THE shit.
>>44028743
Would you ever get your Orks together and find people to play again? Everyone still loves ork players because we can all just have fun.
The WAAAAGH never dies as long as you're enjoying it.
>>44027605
Blasting from the pasting.
>>44028928
I have been thinking about it on and off for years but I just dont know.
Yes if I found an alright group(doubtful considering where I live), I properly would have fun. However I struggle with free time as it is (engineering student) and couldn't get the money together for the paints to finish some of the stuff I never got round to doing.
Moreover the job I'm going for is the kind that consumes your life completely so there's that (military) e.g. difficult to lead/keep respect when your troop knows you play with models on the weekend
I appreciate what you are trying to do, I really do. But I just think it wouldn't workout if I committed myself again. I loved my time and continue to enjoy the lore and vidya.
WAAAAGH on brother
>>44021355
I think a lot of Horus Heresy stuff is dumb, but I kind of like the more serious mood they've been going for. The Dreadknight and the new mega-Dreadnought are low points, though. Same for the uber-terminator armor.
>>44023447
Epic had no detail, it was all abstractions, no chance to see the units up close
>>44028812
You underestimate the amount of Mechanicum and Imperial Army players.
FW also has been wise enough not to put out batshit nuts abilities, ignore formations altogether, and more heavily restrict alliesand detachments.
>>44029320
>ignore formations altogether
This right here is why my local shop doesn't allow 30k - the 40kids all complained that they couldn't decurion or wraithhost or whatever, so the shop owner banned 30k to appease the ones who spend more money.
>>44029320
It's a shame. The idea of Formations as fluffy squads outside of the normal Force Organization to let you customize a force was good, but the benefits are way to powerful for what you have to do to get them.
>>44026234
> 40k no xenos allowed edition
I happen to like playing Necrons
>>44029485
Good. Stay there with the rest of the undesirables.
>>44029533
how are xenos players undesirable? without us its literally nothing but imperium wank
>>44021355
The exact moment when 40k forgot that it was a parody and started taking itself seriously.
>>44021355
>objectively
Impossible to answer
>Subjective Answer
After 4th edition
>>44029403
It was a good idea, the execution was just P2W.
It could have been a real boon to weaker codices and units that provided good reason to take some of the more rarely seen units.
>>44029320
There's always going to be more Space Marines than Imperial Guard in 40k, so by extension there will be more Legion than Imperial Army players by a huge margin. Also, 40k Mechanicus are not wholly compatible with 30k Mechanicum in terms of models, making the initial cost much more daunting.
That isn't to say that neither exists, but rather that they're never going to be as common as the big-name Legions.
>>44029361
This sounds alien to me, but whatever. If true, the shop owner is a fag.
>>44029403
Exactly. Formations could have allowed for some fun and fluffy armies, but people use them to put Skitarii in drop pods and other shit that makes little to no sense lorewise. I much prefer the Legion-specific rules and Rites of War in 30k.
>>44029606
Yeah. If the Tau Codex had formations that included Flyers or Vespids alongside some of the stronger units for benefits those would work, or if the Eldar army had some variable Wraith formations so an Iyanden list was still possible.
>>44029182
That's the one. Second ever WD I ever bought. I should try and find the other one from Gav 'dex to compare again.
5th edition was when things were no longer just different kind of shit, but worse shit.
4 fucking words:
True line of sight
>>44021355
Sometime around 5th I think, I personally liked that edition but if you look at the progression of the game you'll see that in 4th and 5th the game was moving towards a more clean and streamlined rulebook, then they kicked Alessio out and 6th and 7th is just GW going back to a much more convoluted, not very streamlined and with a ton of special rules for everyone and I think its this reaction that ruined 40k a bit for me as it makes every army ignore the rulebook. I still enjoy 40k but personally I think the game needs to be re-done from the ground up because theres just so much baggage in the rulebook from shit that gets copypasted from like 3 editions ago that no longer work the same.
>>44029553
Don't worry, anon, GW loves money too much to let FW keep the game Marine only. They'll find a way to squeeze in some post-Fall Eldar, Orks, etc. Tyranids and Tau are shit out of luck, though.
>>44029553
gimmicky bullshit that distracts fromw hat the setting is truly about, the Imperium's struggle against chaos, all players outside that perview are holding the setting down with there superfluous garbage and the game would improve vastly the moment they all got squatted and replaced with more Imperial factions
>>44029800
Couldn't you pretty much run Eldar as-is? Their tech hasn't really changed at all since forever ago, so technically what they have should be what they had.
>>44029702
I own it. Don't bother.
>>44021402
This. Pius was boss. The "muh eternals" fanfic-tier shit out of the current sty of BL authors is beyond shitty.
>>44023626
>>44023626
>>44023626
>>44023521
Can confirm:
5th was a vehicle edition primarily, and shooting armies outside the leafblower were shit.
Tau could actually pull off 100% win/tie on objective maps though, as in they could beat any other army arrayed against them.
Issue was they gave literally 2x the kill points of any other army.
>>44029800
>Tyranids and Tau are shit out of luck, though.
Their player on the other hand will probably get something near enough to counts as.
>>44029803
>>44029990
>implying truth is bait
you are part of the problem for supporting them
>>44029803
>the problem with the rules is the lore
Let me guess - the joke's on me, you're only "pretending" to be retarted.
>>44029803
>>44029990
It's not bait if it's true, you space elf hedonist fuck.
>>44030032
no the xenos factions have terrible rules and should be dumped
>>44029838
DE probably weren't as fucked up with their biological constructs right after the Fall and CWE were just big ships fleeing the empire, they had not yet assumed the rule they have today. Would assume aspect warriors to be very limited, etc. Maybe some now lost high-tech marvels still functioning at their disposal.
Have to remember that like the Imperium, CWE ended up using the most (cost) effective stuff they could and their society was built around the aspects to control their emotions and keep the gay away. In the aftermath of the Fall everything was probably fucked up and there was no direct course of action.
>>44030075
so if anything the most on top factions would be Exodites and Corsairs
>>44030060
So 30k but with Sisters? No Orks, or Eldar, or Tau, or even Tyranids? No way. That's just boring.
>>44030117
Exodites are fucking Amish that can't defend their own planets without carftworlds. They probably relied on the defence systems to keep them safe after they abandoned the core worlds.
Don't know what was the deal with corsairs back then. Often they're ex-craftworlders. Maybe there's some corsair style fleets roaming space and they probably have shit better together. If anything, they're probably the most likely factions to be encountered. Craftworlds and DE probably kept low and tried to survive.
>>44030279
I bet he also thinks historicals are boring, because all the factions are just dudes with guns and tanks.
>>44029803
What? You know that Xenos have been there since first edition right? That ORKS were the main enemy of Rogue Trader. Chaos were added later as a more elite enemy. Elders were there, too but were like Mercenaries. Squats, Tyranids, those Z things I can't remember the name. They have always been a part of the setting since day one.
>>44030279
>needing gimmick factions to have fun
Child detected
>>44030439
that was before the writers had a focus, then they knew what they wanted but had to keep making gimmick crap on the side
>>44030464
>Being the literal no items, fox only, final destination of 40k
No anon, you are the children, if you want to play pew pew pew the game, go play something else.
>>44030377
If I want to play historicals, I'll play historicals. I wouldn't want every game to be like a historical because part of what I want is variety. Just like how some people want a game like Malifaux or Flames of War, I want a game like 40k - even if right now the rules suck - partially because of the huge setting, and how the different factions have different general strategies and ways of doing things that you can't always express with flavors of human and evil human.
>>44030548
how about you play a more random game and stop harming mine by your mere presence xeno kid
>>44030117
The Eldar list would probably look more like a Corsair list. The Craftworlders and Commorites were still reeling from The Fall and hadn't really branched off and become truly separate groups yet.
By which I mean Guardians in Raiders all day everyday.
>>44030553
>doesn't want every game to be historical
>prefers the part of 40k that filled with the most autistic "that's not accurate to the lore" faggots where giving your legion the "wrong" type of armour will get shit on
>wants variety
>in a game where 90% of the armies are different shades of Marine with little variation in core rules, but majority of their units and rules are shared between them
>>44030491
But they weren't gimmicky side things. I just said that Orks were the main and most common enemy of the Imperium. Not gimmicky. Eldar and Squats were as common as Elves and Dwarves in a fantasy setting so not a side gimmick. Things like Catachan Devils and Tyranids weren't side gimmicks but not main guys either just things you would find in space. Chaos was still daemons and other more unique things instead of watered down Space Marines for the most of it. Imperium vs Chaos was far from the main conflict back then and it's still far from being the main conflict now. Just go play 30k; even when it was good, 40k isn't for you.
>>44030683
better idea, how about they squat 40k and focus entirely on 30k
>>44031536
You know... I thought this was bait, but then I stopped and thought about it.
>No Necrons, no Tau, no Tyranids
>Can do fluff development without it having to be "end of the everything, so we can't go forwards"
>Chance to do some different takes on factions
I wouldn't even be mad.
>>44031656
>Horus Heresy moving beyond Siege of Terra
Good one, anon.
>different takes on factions
You mean Legions becoming Chapters and Army becoming Navy and Guard?
>>44021433
I've never seen any evidence that tournament players make up even a large percentage of 40k players, at best they're simply one of the most vocal groups.
>>44021928
If you're mainly concerning yourselves with Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh, which the CSM and Daemon codices do, then Undivided should not be something everyone and their mother gets rewarded for. It should be reserved for special characters.
>>44023989
Why is morale being even more of a non-factor a good thing? The fact that GW has tried to make morale matter a tiny bit more is an improvement.
>>44024594
Not sure everyone wants to pay $100 for codices.
>>44029910
Blame the people who took a piece of propaganda seriously because muh HFY muh everyman.
The only BL is guilty of is pandering to such people in a way that is somewhat plausible. A lone Imperial army soldier somehow tagging along with the Emperor, two Primarchs, and a Custodial guard on to a living nightmare of a ship with denizens strong enough to kill the aforementioned guard who are supposed to be above even SM is just not plausible without some kind of help.
>>44031759
>because muh HFY muh everyman.
Dude, all Pius does is die like a bitch. It's a wonderful HFY story because he does his duty and dies standing to buy a second of time, but he's not supposed to be some sort of badass soldier or even noticed by the Emperor.
People liked it because Pius was a nobody who did the right thing and paid the ultimate price for the ultimate achievement.
Next you'll tell me BL was right to make Tallarn a major logistics and transit hub.
>>44029990
That's the truth though, GW themselves have said that the Imperium is the center of 40k around which all other factions revolve.
>>44030661
FW has actually done a decent job giving some breathing room for those who want it in HH. Go into the HH generals and you will be told that all of the Legions made use of every type of armor, with at most having a preference for a certain mark.
>>44032148
Yes and they liked it so much that they got mad when it turned out that such a thing being reality just isn't possible. They couldn't handle it being just propaganda or some Imperial myth.
So again, blame those people or blame BL for pandering to them if you want to get mad about what happened to Pius.
>>44030661
My argument was against taking out the factions that weren't flavors of marines. Say what you will about xenos, but most of them aren't like marines at all.
>>44031759
>If you're mainly concerning yourselves with Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh, which the CSM and Daemon codices do, then Undivided should not be something everyone and their mother gets rewarded for. It should be reserved for special characters.
What about Undivided Warbands? Undivided Legions? Why should I have to dedicate my Iron Warriors Daemon Prince to a specific power?
I want to play MY dudes, not "special characters", and I want them to be Undivided without being losing access to what few upgrades remain.
>>44021355
It was a long decline, but to me there is one clear marking of the apex of the curve where it passed the point of no return
TLOS
L
O
S
>>44033773
Really, GW needs to remember the different between Undivided and Chaos Ascendant.
>>44031536
No. Like I said, since I never find anyone to play 1st edition 40k or 3rd edition fantasy with, most of my play time goes to 30k. I will NOT let GW ruin 30k. Keep it FW.
>>44033773
>What about Undivided Warbands? Undivided Legions?
Those can exist, but you don't get any benefits just for being Undivided.
>Why should I have to dedicate my Iron Warriors Daemon Prince to a specific power?
Because it was likely one of those gods that made him a Daemon Prince in the first place.
>I want to play MY dudes, not "special characters", and I want them to be Undivided without being losing access to what few upgrades remain.
Well then just have certain units in your army worship a particular god, come up with something that works within the rules.
Undivided blessings not being special cases makes sense when you remember how much the lore stresses that the Chaos gods do not like each other, are monstrously selfish, and rarely work together for long. That's pretty much shit on when you have a galaxy full of Warbands who apparently have a special mark that carries the blessings of all four and Daemon Princes who owe no particular allegiance when the whole point of Daemon Princes is for the Chaos gods to obtain new tools.
>>44021355
3rd > 4th > 5th > 6th > 7th
I haven't played Rogue Trader. While I really enjoyed 2nd edition it's too different of a game to really compare.
A lot of what I dislike about modern 40k crept in at the back end of 4th edition. I don't think the game was objectively bad until 6th edition however.
>>44022153
2nd was great. It's just a different type of game.
Small skirmish game, not 100 dudes vs 100 dudes.
The first few years of 4th were really solid with the best Tyranid and Tau codices we've ever had and also the new release of Black Templars. We had the Medusa V campaign and still had fluff/modelling/scenario articles on the GW website.
On the other hand the final year of 4th gave us the abomination of the CSM codex and the split between marines and demons. While Apocalypse was a really fun release at first did set us down the slope towards today where superheavies and flyers are considered acceptable for general play.
All downhill from there. My answer to your question OP would be 5th. All the bad of the latter half of 4th without the initial good.
My time as a Tyranid player
>2nd
Cool it's like I'm the starship trooper bugs
>3rd
Oh hell yeah everything looks waaay better now
>4th
oooooh baby i'm in heaven
>5th
JUST
>6th
FUCK
>7th
MY
>8th
???
>9th
???
>>44027286
2nd edition was designed for small skirmishes like that.
Combat patrol can work if that's too dated though.
>>44034572
>a special mark that carries the blessings of all four
That's Chaos Ascendant
Undivided was the generic mark of lesser gods and princes, worshipers of the pantheon, and daemon princes that had built themselves up over continual gifts and mutations reaching critical mass.
As opposed to those like Abbadon and Belakor who are straight up champions of all the gods and have the power vested in them as such.
Hell, you can even see it in MoCU's ability in comparison to the god specific marks.
>>44032148
That plus the fact that Horus utterly destroying Pius is an important bit of characterization for Horus as well. It shows just how darkside he's gone at that point.
>>44035215
Yes I'm aware of the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, but the marks are generally signs of blessings from the gods, what else can Undivided stand for then blessings from all four, particularly since most Undivided warbands worship all of the gods in some way?
I could see there being an Undivided mark and Undivided Daemon Princes if maybe the codices focused on things besides the Chaos gods, but they don't. If you want an Undivided Warband just don't take any marks or take whichever mark seems fitting for a particular unit.
>>44036263
>generic mark of lesser gods and princes, worshipers of the pantheon, and daemon princes that had built themselves up over continual gifts and mutations reaching critical mass.
It's literally generic chaos worship, with generic chaos gifts, coming from whatever warp power you are aligned with at the time.
Most followers of chaos are only vaguely aligned with the powers and flit from favor to favor.
>>44035126
As a tyranid player who joined in 3rd edition, I feel your pain, 3rd and 4th were great, its been a steady and steep decline since then
>>44021355
>>44021803
>>44021928
>>44022140
>>44022153
>>44024514
>>44027244
Warhammer 40k was never particularly good. I'd argue that the only games that I'd play without being a fag for the lore and setting is Necromunda, Mordehim and Epic Armageddon, and out of those I only really think Armageddon is balanced and challenging.
GW was only ever the top dog because they had good timing, there was never a golden age where their games were amazing feats of games design.
What I think has gone to shit though is the player base, and I blame the internet a lot. When a typical 40k group consisted of a bunch of friends who got started together in their teens and did other nerdy shit together things were great, because it's a hobby and an outlet for creativity more than it's about competition.
Now you can't make ANYTHING without having 12000 rabid armchair general scream about balance or shilling or whatever. Miniature wargaming is, in my opinion, a hobby that is a lot better off without the internet hivemind theorycrafting powerlists, much like D&D is better off without forums devoted to "build guides"
They won't make fluffy lists and army entries with tons of potential for creativity or conversions any more because the vocal part of the player base doesn't give a shit. If you gave them the cutest codex possible where every entry is dripping with fluff and potential for unique miniatures, they'd just shit on it anyway if it wasn't better than Eldar or whatever people call OP these days, because lets face it, a lot of 40k player use the game as an outlet for a competitive streak they can't exercise elsewhere because they're autists. It's like playing rpgs with "system mastery" spergs, the player base has too many people who really should be playing starcraft or chess, but they don't, because in those games they can't spend more money to win more or abuse the shitty balance.
>>44032250
>Go into the HH generals and you will be told that all of the Legions made use of every type of armor, with at most having a preference for a certain mark.
I'll also be told that not using FW kits cheapens the hobby, that, for example, Fists in nothing but Mk. 2-3 is wrong, etc.
>>44024594
Its been a long time since i bought the last SM codex, is the left one from the current codex? Like from the real codex and not from some painting tutorial in the white dwarf?
I remember the codex pics being better than that. maybe not as good as the FW book (obviously, since its probably 3 times the price) but still better than that.
>>44024800
>Making true line of sight a thing is the absolute cancer.
It was a thing in every edition except 4th newfag.
>>44037806
it's from the latest codex, yes
>>44021355
When they removed Squats.
>>44036263
When a god marks you, they claim you as theirs. You are branded to be the property of a certain god. Undivided is merely the gods acknowledging your contribution to their cause.
Anyone can claim to fight for Chaos and paint signs on their armour, but in my view what separates a mook from someone devoted to the cause of Chaos is the mark of Undivided. Heretics who have yet to claim any notoriety from the gods do not have any marks. Forces that devote themselves to a certain god get markes by the god. Forces that dedicate themselves to just pure Chaos and the Great Game, and get noticed for their actions by the gods, would get their blessing in some shape or forms, but it wouldn't be as concrete as a dedicated mark. In exchange you get to keep your independence.
In the old fluff undivided princes were free to roam the Chaos wastes and not tied to any one deity, but in turn they were not as powerful. So why keep them around? Because of the animosity between the gods. An undivided prince with no allegiance to one god over the rest made good generals and intermediaries for multi-god armies.
Marked troops tend to be puppets to their masters and take upon them the aspects of their deities. It seems even the Marks of Chaos Ascendant has that. In the fluff where Horus and Emperor fought, the Emperor drove out the dark gods from Horus and for a brief moment sanity returned to him. It would seem that he was not fully in control of his own actions. Possible neither is Abaddon, no matter how much he thinks he's using Chaos to further the goals of humanity.
>>44037842
>It was a thing in every edition except 4th newfag.
I can't remember rogue trader's terrain/shooting rules off-hand, but second, third and fourth editions had almost identical line-of-sight systems.
You fucking retard.
Heresy story ruined 40k. It used to be a universe full of diversity and the unknown. Every sci-fi trope mashed together, and even left holes for you to fill yourself - missing primarchs etc. But the more they flesh out the story, the smaller the universe seems. Like now, if you're not with the Imperium, you're with Chaos. The more they describe, the more it feels like the story is complete and you can't add it. The more units they have, the more your homebrew custom units don't fit with the "40k aesthetic".
>>44022153
2nd was awesome, you fucking child. 3rd took everything cool about 40k and murdered it.
>>44029182
maaan
Those pics evoked long forgotten emotions
That chaos codex was the first I ever bought
>>44021355
>BS3
>>44024629
Its more or less on par with Insignum Astartes, except it doesn't come in a separate book now and more than just marines have them.
>>44040204
>Like now, if you're not with the Imperium, you're with Chaos.
No, it's "If you are a renegade or traitor to the Imperium, you will inevitably turn to Chaos as a means to protect yourself or find sanctuary".
>>44032250
>In reality dying like a bitch to buy one second isn't possible.
u wot m8
>>44040702
Feral Orks have to be better shots to provide food in a hostile world before a proper Orkonomy has developed.
They were BS3 and good at dakka.
>>44021355
When people like Virt started the hobby.
>>44029182
> "There's more to Chaos Space Marines than Veterans with infiltration"
They don't even have that anymore.
>>44021355
Man, Large Squiggoths are much better value than the others. Who wrote those rules?
Being truthful, I don't think any edition of 40K has ever been noticeably better or worse than any other. Games Workshop has devolved into a more inbred and delusional shitshow and its hurt factors like the models, rule output and diversity and so on, but these are mostly tangential factors to the actual game itself. 40K has always been good but flawed. The particular ways and reasons why it's good but flawed have only barely shifted over time.
>>44021433
Worse than that, Games Workshiop has never actually catered to miniatures collectors in any intense manner. It's just their flimsy excuse for not making workable fun rules.
>>44041717
>Who wrote those rules?
Chambers and Haines.
>>44042012
I'll make a note under "boring and imbalanced rules writers" in my brain for the future. Unless that was an anti-fluke.
>>44041537
options aren't fun
people want gargantuan creatures
>>44038651
I just thought of something. What happens in the current Chaos codex if a Champion without a mark rolls on the boon table and becomes a Daemon Prince? Do you still have to choose one?
>>44042578
The game ends, the miniatures and the table is folded into a bin and both players need to erase all traces of their existence before venturing into the wild to be devoured by nature.
>>44042482
Have we really reached a point where people don't recognize Andy Chambers? I mean Haines is one thing, but Chambers?
Pic related three of their codices from around the time of the Feral Orks list.
>>44021355
>So at what point did 40k became objectively worse than its previous history?
With 5th editions true ling of sight bullshit.
For real. Go read LOS rules of 4th ed. shit was cash.
You could use terrain to make the game more like chess then the current trend checkers.
>>44038651
>Undivided is merely the gods acknowledging your contribution to their cause.
Why would deities as selfish as the Chaos gods deign to notice someone who isn't actively working in their specific favor? They're more likely to court the individual, try and get rid of them lest they turn to another god, or just ignore them.
Again, Undivided Princes are pretty much worthless because first and foremost the gods are going to care about gaining another asset for their cause. Off the top of my head, all the of the gods besides Tzeentch usually try to advocate for someone devoted to them to be the leader of a multigod army.
>>44040821
More that a normal human would never survive to reach the bridge.
>>44042976
If the capricious and chaotic gods of the warp ignored the services of those who advanced their cause how would they ever tempt the unaligned into their service?
Also Pius was never on the Vengeful Spirit, he died on Terra.
>>44042747
>That Imperial Guard codex
>Them Regiment customization rules.
God I miss that time.
>>44042976
>Why would deities as selfish as the Chaos gods deign to notice someone who isn't actively working in their specific favor?
Same reason you can have an army of Khorne daemons led by a Keeper of Secrets. Or Lord of Change opening portals to let in Nurgle daemons.
Because that's what you get now that Undivided is not a thing. You got all the talk about the Great Game and how the gods come together for a common cause when there's Chaos to be done, but on the other hand it's completely useless to imagine they'd have anything in common or any ability to work together for anything.
>>44043045
>he died on Terra
Back when the fight between Horus and Emperor was fought on Terra. Then it was moved to orbit, but the ship was not named, so the terminator didn't die on Vengeful Spirit either.
>>44043047
I like the current order system more to be honest. I like my unit buffs to be active rather than passive.
>>44042747
I'll admit that I haven't read any of those codecies for years and didn't look at the author credits back when I used to use them (remember we're talking 12 years back or so). CSM and EoT will always be dear in my heart but IG didn't do much for me beyond the Create your own Regiment bit (which was still imbalanced).
>>44042797
Frankly Area Terrain was a brilliant idea. The only problem was that I mainly played with my older brother, and the dumb fuck literally couldn't wrap his head around it.
>>44043112
Haines was also responsible for the 4th edition marine codex, which was well loved for obvious reasons.
>>44043045
>If the capricious and chaotic gods of the warp ignored the services of those who advanced their cause how would they ever tempt the unaligned into their service?
I probably should have worded it better, I meant to say why would they deign to bless someone who isn't entirely devoted to them unless it's an extremely special case such as with the Primarchs or Abaddon?
>>44043055
>Same reason you can have an army of Khorne daemons led by a Keeper of Secrets. Or Lord of Change opening portals to let in Nurgle daemons.
Could easily be fluffed as following a particular daemon through a rift, being bullied into following, temporary truce, etc.
>You got all the talk about the Great Game
Which is entirely about the Chaos gods competing with each other for dominance.
>and how the gods come together for a common cause
Only in special circumstances do they all come together.
>>44021355
4th Edition was the last good edition. After that everything was fucking awful. Either stupidly broken and pointlessly refluffed (Grey Knights, Necrons, IG [Oh I'm sorry, Astrum Militarum, fucking stupid bullshit]), or shat on because they had a nice thing once (Tyranids, Chaos, Orks)
>>44043157
That was the one with the chapter creator right? It was better than the one that came after it, that's for sure.
>>44043173
>Could easily be fluffed as following a particular daemon through a rift, being bullied into following, temporary truce, etc.
That's not how it was told in the book.
>Which is entirely about the Chaos gods competing with each other for dominance.
And binding their actions. The gods can't escape it. If the Great Game ceases to be, so do the gods. It is as much a product of the gods as the gods are the product of it.
>Only in special circumstances do they all come together.
Like when furthering the goals of Chaos.
>>44043134
How shooting went in 4th ed
>this template represents a building
>you cant shoot through it.
How shooting has worked since then
>my lascannon guy can see through the joing gap in this building
>the window of that building
>inbetween the dreads arm and body
>under its cable
>through the window of that building
>under the limb of this forest template
>and it can see a glimmer of the side of your tank
>so im going to shoot that
>LOL ITS COOL DO CUS YOU GET A 5+ COVER SAVE FOR ALL THAT!!!!
I would be fine with TLOS if you started with a base cover save of 5+ and got a +1 mod for every thing blocking the path and if you ever get to 1+ it becomes a 2+ with a reroll.
But that adds another table to the game that is not needed.
Why not just go back to LOS rules that were logical and practical for gaming.
A proper forest template now is an actualy fucking forest that you cant move minis though. Looks cool and is what is needed for TLOS. but super impractical for gaming.
>>44043245
>Like when furthering the goals of Chaos.
Very few of which they all share in common.
>>44043227
Yep. It was basically an evolution of the doctrines from his guard book.
I personally prefer 2nd as a game, but with Haines, Chambers and Hoare knocking heads together, they made 3rd and 4th really fucking fun too.
>>44043173
>I meant to say why would they deign to bless someone who isn't entirely devoted to them unless it's an extremely special case
Because if Khorne doesn't grant Skargar the Manflayer superstrength he's liable to declare for Slaanesh, because Slaanesh gave Skargar knife hands. And you wouldn't want Slaanesh to get a promising young warlord like Skargar would you?
Champions don't just declare for Khorne out of nowhere, they either get brought in by a Khornate cult/culture or Khorne has to win them over by showing how generous and powerful he is in comparison to his rivals. Besides, it's fucking super strength, shit's dime a dozen amiright?
And a thousand years later the dude's 15' tall, has knife hands, fly wings, magic Naruto eyes, squats tanks, breathes both fire and acid, and dispenses pheromones that either make you love him or fill you with berseker rage depending on the lunar phase of a moon that makes no sense.
And Skargar the Manflayer is really hoping they stay convinced that they only need one little push and they'll have him for good, and don't get miffed and spawn him for his temerity.
>>44043304
>Chaos gods don't have anything in common with Chaos
Good one.
>>44043278
Just agree with your opponent. It's not that hard.
At game start:
Me: all ruins are 4+ area terrain?
Opponent: Sure.
Me: Cool.
Was that so friggin hard?
>>44043415
If someone has already been blessed by Slaanesh then they're likely already too far gone for Khorne to give a damn about them.
>>44043438
Other than overthrowing the materium, what other common goal do all of the Chaos gods share?
>>44043278
Mmm, in a game where the size and scale of everything is innaccurate and abstract using a measure like TLoS is stupidity folded a thousand times over. Why not force players to drop bomb models on enemy pieces and say it's "True Damage"?
>>44043278
>adding more modifiers for cover saves
Oh fuck no cover whoring is too big of a problem in current 40k. We already have too much of "1/4th of my tank is behind that bit of wall, camo netting and stealth give me a 2+ lol"
Going back to old rules is definitely a better solution than that.
>>44043306
A better evolution I might add, although still not quite balanced.
It occurs to me that the three Andys basically created the chapter/legion/warband rules feature that has always drawn me to armies and factions in games. (for Warhammer that is, other games may have done that earlier)
>>44042519
Didn't cultists used to not be a thing?
>>44043497
You don't understand. Area terrain blocked LOS completely. (or more accurately, blocked LOS completely, but units could see in and out of it 2")
That is considerably different to a blanket 4+ cover save, which is what 5th edition did.
>>44043564
Cultists used to be their own damned army until GW axed them.
>>44043497
>getting everyone opponent to agree to a diviation from the rules is as easy as using the rules straight out of the book!
This is a corrolary to the logic behind Age of Sigmar having no points costs.
>>44043564
No, they were a thing in the 3.5 book. Specifically an Alpha Legion thing.
Personally I thought giving it to just the legion and not the word bearers as well was a bit of a missed opportunity. But the bearers went more for the daemon summoning angle.
Cultists didn't exist in the first third edition book, but they were definitely a part of second edition's chaos codex.
>>44043519
How about all the goals that got to do with Chaos winning? When has one god let the good guys win and fuck with Chaos, unless it was for an ulterior motive?
Also, why is there such a thing as a Chaos star, if it has no meaning? What purpose does it serve? Why isn't it just the marks of the gods, because clearly that's all there is and claiming otherwise is just dumb.
>>44043519
>If someone has already been blessed by Slaanesh then they're likely already too far gone for Khorne to give a damn about them.
If that was the case Slaanesh would bless everyone and crush Khorne.
>>44043587
They're still their own army, they have a list in Imperial Armor 13 and maybe Siege of Vraks.
>>44043622
"Winning" doesn't always mean the same thing to each god, Khorne's idea of winning likely isn't the same as Slaanesh's nor is Nurgle's the same as Tzeentch's.
They have very few causes they all share in common, it's more likely that two or three of them will form a temporary pact to accomplish some goal and that usually doesn't cross the line of Khorne working with Slaanesh or Nurgle with Tzeentch.
The Chaos star is something they knicked from Moorcock.
>>44043667
Need to prove yourself worthy.
>>44043597
It's exactly what every 40k rulebook tells you to do regarding terrain.
>>44043566
It was 6" in, 6" within, and never through. Unless one of the models was taller than the area terrain.
Also base Cover being 4+ was a horrid idea, 5+ should be the generic cover save.
>>44043760
>"Winning" doesn't always mean the same thing to each god, Khorne's idea of winning likely isn't the same as Slaanesh's nor is Nurgle's the same as Tzeentch's.
But all can recognize when Chaos isn't doing good. By your logic, there's no reason for the gods to ever have created Be'lakor, supported Horus or Abaddon, etc. What does Abaddon do that serves all the gods vs. them just supporting their own champions? Because clearly there's nothing Abaddon can do that would please them all.
>The Chaos star is something they knicked from Moorcock.
That doesn't answer my question.
>>44037736
>what I think has gone too shit though is the player base
This sums it up perfectly. If those assholes who constantly circle jerk over how powerful and broken they can make their armies never showed up the game would still be playable and fun. GW decided ruleswise they wanted to cater to those faggots and keep making everything more and more powerful so they would go out and buy the newest most powerful army to stay on top. The 40k scene at my local gaming store has been ruined by guys like that who bring only the most powerful lists and get together to make fun of anyone who doesn't play the best army or field things the most optimized way.
>>44043546
Going back to what worked and did not have an issue is always better then making more charts and rules.
>>44043865
And it's always been ass.
I agree than 5+ is a better base cover however.
>>44043566
Which add more of a tatcial element to a game.
>Being able to shoot damn near everything on the table but LOL 5+ COVER SAVE!!!!
OR
>using terrain to your advantage to deny the other guys shots while you position your troops while at the same time trying to not get yourself out positioned and having to worry about taking out enough of the other guys forces so that you will have an advantage late game
Im not saying 4th was flawless. escalation deployment sucked balls. winning a combat and being able to charge into another unit and fight again was stupid as fuck.
But 4ths LOS rules were hands down the best the game has ever seen and it would make current 40k MUCH better if they would just go back to them.
>>44044035
Here here.
I reckon we should make a shortlist of each feature worth incorporating from older editions of 40K as replacements to the current 7th. It won't be long but with examples like ALoS it's worth it.
>>44043867
Notice how two of your three examples serve the common cause of overthrowing the materium and in the case of all three are special characters.
I haven't been saying that they absolutely nothing in common, just that such a list is very small and may just be limited to the aforementioned over throwing of the materium.
In the case of Horus and Abaddon it's also a case of them being able to rally together a cohesive force where the gods can't.
In a way I did answer your question, the Chaos star is something knicked from Moorcock and doesn't have any real meaning other than representing the infinite possibilities of Chaos or representing the eight winds of magic in Fantasy.
>>44021355
WOT IN DA NAME'A MORK DID U JUST ZOGGIN' SHOOT AT ME, YA LITTLE GROT?? OI'LL 'AVE YEW KNOW I GRADJEWATED TOPPA ME KLAN, AN' 'AVE BEEN INVOLVED IN NUM'ROUS WAAAAGH!!'S ACROSS DA GALAXY, AN' OI GOTS ME OVA 300 KUNFIRMED KRUMPS. OI'M TRAINED TA FOIGHT DEM FANCY SPAIC GORILLAS IN WAAAAGHFARE AN' OI'M DA TOP SHOOTA IN DA ENTIRE KLAN. YER NOTHIN' TA ME BUTTA NOTHA TA'GET. OI'LL KRUMP YA DA ZOG OUT WIT DAKKA DA LOIKS A' WHICH 'AVE NEVA BEEN SEENT BEFOAR IN DIS WAAAAGH!!, MARK ME ZOGGIN' WORDS. YA FINK YA KEN GETTAWAY WIF SHOOTIN' DAT SPIT AT ME OVA DA BATTLEFIELD?! FINK AGEN YA GIT. AS WE SPEEK OI'M WRANGLIN' UP A BUNCHA BOYZ ACROSS DA SYSTEM AN' YER PLANET IS BEIN' TARGETTED ROIGHT NOW SO YA BETTA PREPARE FER DA STORM, YA LOUZY GROT. DA STORM DAT WIPES OUT DA PATHETIK LITTLE FING YA CALL A KLAN. YER ZOGGIN' DEAD, GIT. OI CAN SHOOT AT ANYTHIN', IN ANY DAREKSHUN, AN' OI CAN KRUMP YA IN OVA SEVEN HUNDRED WAYS, AND DATS JUS' WIF ME CHOPPA. NOT ONLY AM OI EXTENS'LY TRAINED IN UNFAIR KOMBAT, BUT OI 'AVE ACCESS TO DA ENTIRE ARSE IN ALL OF DA BAD MOONZ KLAN AN' OI WON'T FINK TWICE BEFOAR USIN' IT. AS A MATTR'A FACT, OI'M NOT EVEN FINKIN ROIGHT NOW! IF ONLY YA COULDA KNOWN WHAT ORKY RETRI-LOOT-ION YER LITTLE "CLEVER" SNAPSHOT WUZ GONNA BRING DOWN ON YA, MAYBE YA WOULDA HELD YER ZOGGIN' MUG SHUT. BUTCHA COULDN'T, YA DIDN'T, AND NOW YER PAYIN' THE PROICE, YE ZOG-DAMNED GROT. OI'LL SPIT DAKKA ALL OVA YE AND YU'LL DROWN IN IT. YER ZOGGIN' DEAD, M8.
>>44044152
charges being a fixed distance
I don't know how most people feel about it, but I personally hate the random dice roll for that.
>>44043889
I'd agree with you on that for 6th, but between unbound, formations, gargantuan creatures/superheavies, GW's complete lack of interest in using 0-X anymore, invisibility, codex creep, and various other factors 7th has completely fucked balance to hell and back to the point that Timmy who shows up for a pickup game with his cool theme list is liable to be running an unstoppable sledgehammer of doom.
>>44044472
Sniper and barrage weapons cause pinning.
Ordnance barrage weapons also cause -1 leadership on the test.
Direct fire non-ordnance blasts don't scatter and can hit flyers.
Owning player removes casualties as he wishes, but must remove template/blast casualties from below the template. Look out sir possibly removed for balance purposes.
No penalty for refusing a challenge, some characters (Emperor's Champ, Lucius) have the ability to force acceptance.
Can charge after disembarking a transport that didn't move in the movement phase.
>>44044372
>such a list is very small
Out of the 9 legions that fell to Chaos, only 4 were dedicated to a god. The rest were undivided. That's not "small". That's not something you can easily just brush under the rug by claiming logic and market appeal.
>In a way I did answer your question
That's not an answer. If there is nothing but the 4 gods, then why is there a symbol for something that's not the 4 gods?
>>44044729
What does the number the of Traitor Legions have to do with the Chaos gods not having many things in common? Lorgar got raised to daemonhood for causing the Heresy and Perturabo for the role he played.
>>44021355
It was def when Feral Orks stopped being tournament legal, then GW turned around and gave everyone 6 point boyz anyways.
>>44045128
>What does the number the of Traitor Legions have to do with the Chaos gods not having many things in common?
Then why isn't there 1 undivided and 8 marked? Why do non-descript Chaos forces just have Chaos stars on them, instead of the marks of their gods? If gods have so little in common, why is there generic Chaos that's not sided with one of the four? Why even keep entertaining the idea, instead of just getting rid of such archaic notions in the first place and replacing the Chaos stars with symbols of the four gods?
>>44044472
I have lost best overall at 3 different tourneys because i rolled 2 inches for a charge distance.
Nothing was wrong with fixed 6 inch charge. you just need to remove premausering from the game.
It was so exciting when i would try and bait someones big badass CC unit out with a target.
Which one of use can measure distances better by looking? Will your CC termies smash my HQ to bits or will you be left in the open for me to drown you in bolter and plasma fire?
>>44042976
Then did Perturabo become a demon prince? Why did Lorgar?
>>44043564
Alpha Legion had them. They also had their own list in the Eye of Terror codex.
Then axed near the end of 4th edition.
>>44046605
Lorgar because he sowed the seeds of the Heresy.
Perturabo I'm guessing because of his actions. He doesn't really seem to be full Chaos at the moment but maybe that changes, if not during the Heresy than the Scouring.
Lorgar and Perturabo and my opinion are good example of Undivided Daemon Princes since they accomplished quite a bit and are powerful enough that the god want them on their side. I'm not saying that Undivided can't be a thing, just that there shouldn't be any benefits for going Undivided and that Undivided Daemon Princes should be limited to special characters.
>chaos
3.5 > 5 > 6 > 4
>tau
4 > 3 > 6
>orks
3 > 4
>marines
4 > 3 > 5 > 6
>necrons
5 > 3
>imperial guard
3.5 > 5 > 6
>dark eldar
3.5 > 5
>inquisition
3 > 6 > 5
>eldar
3 > 4 > 6
>tyranids
4 > 3 > 5 > 6
poor orks
>>44021355
It never did. I started with 2nd, and that shit took forever. Even 5th was better.
40k's problems are all about GW's inability to do more with the setting. Gotta expand to new stories (where's the "Rise of Gazghul" trilogy already) gotta think broader about possibilities.
>>44043563
Chambers also did it for Eldar with the Craft World Eldar book.
Whenever Forgeworld shit became legal use without permission from your opponent.
Fuck flyers and superheavies.
>>44047060
AFAIK Lorgar is fairly unique in being a Daemon Prince without regrets. Perturabo is tormented, Magnus is brooding and vengeful, Angron lost his humanity to escape his mistakes.
Lorgar went into The Truth of Chaos head-first.
>>44047080
>>dark eldar
>3.5 > 5
5>3.5>AoS>6
>>44047060
>there shouldn't be any benefits for going Undivided and that Undivided Daemon Princes should be limited to special characters
The benefit of being Undivided is that you're not a fucking lapdog to the gods, but free to be your own master for the glory of Chaos. The downside is that you skip on the benefits of being more dedicated.
Undivided troops should be the norm, since they're just worshiping all the gods as one pantheon and maybe in time pick a side to focus on. Then you got dedicated troops that have proven their worth to their gods. Undivided princes can be rare, since achieving daemonhood as an Undivided is surely a tricky road, but the benefits are great for one who truly wants it. Limiting it to special characters is stupid.
>>44047169
Fulgrim seems to have gone that route as well.
>>44047540
You could argue that Undivided is currently the norm, but what some people seem to want is a return to being rewarded for remaining Undivided, which supposedly was present in all of one edition for both 40k and Fantasy.
I say limit Undivided status to special characters because there is really no other way mechanics wise to show that it is a rarity other than perhaps making it cost more as an option. Alternatively if someone wants and Undivided Daemon Prince so bad they could just talk it over with their opponent and say they're going to forgo all the benefits that come with being the Daemon Prince of a specific god.
>>44047637
>yfw
As I said already, there's a difference between just being a rebel or a traitor working for Chaos forces, and being blessed in your devotion to the pantheon. Undivided was never much of a reward, but it was to rise you above the rabble. I fail to see how having it back is destroying what you think Chaos is.
>Alternatively if someone wants and Undivided Daemon Prince so bad they could just talk it over with their opponent and say they're going to forgo all the benefits that come with being the Daemon Prince of a specific god.
Fuck off, Gav, your codex was shit and you're shit.
>>44048101
It's my point of view that you shouldn't get blessings just because, if they made it clear that they're mutations or some such that would be something else, but there should be no Mark of the Undivided.
As I said, it shits on Chaos in my view because Chaos is supposed to be all about how the gods don't like each other and rarely agree. Having a Mark of the Undivided and Undivided Daemon Princes be a relatively common thing would mean that they apparently agree quite a bit.
>>44048417
Chaos is also supposed to be about the innumerable lesser powers seething around the feet of the big 4.
Forcing Chaos into being 4 dudes and strict structures does the entire faction and cosmology a disservice.
