I was planning on asling this on /his/, but you guys are probably going to be more useful, and I'm half of /tg/'s posters interlap with /his/ anyway.
I'm looking for someone to explain to me or point me to sources of early russian history... mainly how bronze age came to be, and major happenings, social/political/economical/religious/folkloric oranization, local legends and myths, views on witchcraft if any.
I'd also be thrilled if some good art and representations of the people and tools;
/weapons were posted, I'll be posting some myself.
Please, no 1500 pages treaties on russian pottery... I'm looking for a good weekend read for setting building purposes.
I'm also less interested, but still mildly curious about the siberian populations that came to be asian russia, and whatever you might think it's interesting.
That's pretty much it for now... sorry for the watermarks, I'm on my phone since captcha is bugged on my laptop.
By the way, any movies about mythology and heroes are welcome.
The Russians made a movie about Alexander Nevsky. It's heavily romanticized, but hey, it's the Rus.
>>43995250
Seems interesting enough, I'll give it a go
>>43992351
How far do you want to dig, OP? Because what (and how much) you find will depend highly on the time periods and locations in question.
There are some very distinct strata in "Russian" history, and a lot of it has been whitewashed and retconned from the top down to suit later rulers. The process is happening right now with the Russia's internal perception of the 20th century; the only reason it's noticeable is because there are other parts of the world which remember that history a bit differently. Putin's Russia is still grasping around for a national idea, pulling at the memories of tzars and communists alike, but it's already excising or altering "undersirable" information. If the process runs its course with no outside contradictions, a lot of information will be lost - the same way that communists "deleted" things that didn't fit in their world a hundred years ago, and the same way orthodox Christians did with the pagan stuff they supplanted.
So what you have with Russia is, first of all, a territory about which (for a very long time) no one cared, which means a lack of external references and travelogues. Second, you have unreliable history, because it was constantly edited by whoever was in charge. Third, you'll also run into arguments of what "Russia" actually is - Kievan Rus? Muscovy? Novgorod? Do the Poles, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Siberians, or the Caucasus states count - as in, are they part of "Russia" (regardless of whether they are running away screaming from or towards it right now) as "Russia" is defined in your historical query? WHERE, WHEN, and WHO COUNTS will all skew your results differently.
We had a similar thread before (pic related). If you can track it down, there might be something useful to you in there.
>>43992351
>half of /tg/'s posters interlap with /his/
fuck I hope not
>>43995887
Read this, and damn, bruv, it seems to be a thing.
Honestly, lost history touches a raw note inside, mostly because I'm a descendant of a people who have lost their history and had it replaced by something less (let the guessing games begin).
Regarding this, then, are outside sources really the only reliable ones? What is currently being buried by the new purveyors of historical "fact"?
>>43995921
>What is currently being buried by the new purveyors of historical "fact"?
That's the point. We're not going to know.
Orthodoxy buried a lot of the prior religious customs. These didn't die, however - they retreated into the areas away from major population centers. Russia has a bit of a "tradition" of people who disagree with something saying "fuck that" and moving somewhere just to live according to their own customs. (There are stories of WW2 troops retreating from the Germans into a Russian village, only to find its inhabitants had no idea Soviet Union exists.)
Where the pagan stuff is still alive the most is in superstitions, both in terms of mythological creatures (domovoi, rusalka, leshy) and general "things you don't do". You don't put your keys on a table or whistle indoors - that's a way to lose money. You don't eat a slice of cheese or meat you've just cut straight off a knife - only evil people do that. Instead of just avoiding broken mirrors, you don't even brush your hair when the reflection is dark or distorted - it's implied dark forces will come at you from the other side when the reflection isn't clear because you're letting your guard down. You don't shake hands across the threshold of a house - either invite the person inside, or step out towards them. If you ever have to come back inside because you forgot something, look in a mirror - to flip your fate back to its good side (and/or wink to your reflection too, just in case). You don't predict bad things for others - and when your words can be taken as such, you spit three times quickly over your left shoulder and/or knock on wood to prevent them from coming true.
These are all personal anecdotes from my childhood. Now they can easily be dismissed as simple superstitions, but at some point they might have tied into a larger belief system. That connection is lost to me personally, but there might be ethnographers or anthropologists who have tried to research this.
>>43996039
On the political side of things, nothing is probably more indicative of the revisions than the different ways Russian regimes have attempted to legitimize themselves. The founding myth of Kievan Rus and other "Russian" polities is that varangians were "invited" to come rule Russian towns due to constant Russian in-fighting. And that's the "good", "official" story! Non-Russian historians think what really happened was that some vikings who went down the now-Russian rivers decided to settle in, or more likely conquer, existing communities along major trade/pillage routes, creating a foreigner ruling caste over a population they didn't share language, religion, or customs with. (Some Russian names can be traced back to Scandinavian roots, so cultural transfer did eventually happen (potentially both ways, with the ruling caste intermarrying natively).
So, first, you have Kievan Rus, the elite of which is essentially vikings doing the general northern European thing - have land, watch land against neighbor, kick neighbor for their land and/or cash when sitting in one place gets too boring. (This is right about where official records start, because Cyrillics gets introduced sometime around here.) Then you add Christianity into the mix, and suddenly there's a push among these princes, as they call themselves, to be the one to unite all Rus (still Kievan) under God. With fire and sword Rus is christened, a thousand years ago, and it works - but doesn't hold, because the princes keep splitting up the lands of their fathers on the fathers' deaths, as is the custom. So you end up with a lot of tiny little princedoms all vying for power and trying to claim the grand crown, and when one succeeds he just doesn't live long enough for it to matter in the long run.
And into this picture you enter the Mongols, who were incredibly ruthless but savvy conquerors. Sure, they looted and pillaged, but even then they knew - no one wants to willingly stay in Russia. (Con't...)
>>43996160
>The founding myth of Kievan Rus and other "Russian" polities is that varangians were "invited" to come rule Russian towns due to constant Russian in-fighting. And that's the "good", "official" story!
I would like to add that right now there's a strong push in Russia to revise this story, making the Varangians Slavs from what is now Northern Germany.
>>43996160
So the Mongols roll through all the princedoms, sack Kiev, loot everything - no one can stand up against them. But they don't want to stay and rule here, so fuck off east and get lazy. They tell the Russians to collect the loot for the Mongols on their own, and then bring the loot over, with the implication that if this doesn't happen they'll get off their asses and wreck the princes again. The Mongols then have the princedoms fight among themselves for the HONOR of bringing the loot over, and one particular princedom keeps winning - Moscow. It's a late-comer to the game, having been founded about 300 years after Kiev, but it keeps having consistently long-lived rulers who provide stability while the rest of the princedoms squabble. Eventually, as Moscow pulls more and more formerly independent princedoms under itself, the Muscovites realize something: why, exactly, are we bringing all this loot over to the Mongols, when we could just keep it? So they start rallying whoever's not directly under them by claiming to be "defending Rus from Mongols" and eventually, after being wrecked progressively LESS badly, they effectively tell the Mongols to fuck off.
And this is where the rest of the world notices, because one of those Muscovite Great Princes happens to marry a daughter of the fading Byzantium, right before Constantinople falls. Suddenly, these savages from god-knows-where who were just paying off the Mongols are claiming they are "the last bastion of true Christianity" (orthodoxy) in the world, with a direct rulership continuity back to Rome through that marriage (effectively the Third Reich idea, but about 500 years earlier). Europe basically wakes up to a massive state suddenly appearing on its eastern border. To put it into perspective, imagine if the unifications of Germany or Italy happened without the other European powers noticing until the new states opened diplomatic relations.
This is when Russia goes into the imperial state. (Con't)
>>43996160
>>43996273
>so educational
>totally copying this down
>>43996273
The best comparison I can make to Russia's imperial expansion is the USA. Both expanded into territory that was technically occupied, if not necessarily settled in the "civilized" understanding of the word. Both fought wars against populations which were seen as their lessers to gain said territory. And when both went up against other similarly imperialist countries, things usually devolved into a long-term clusterfuck rather than quick victorious war. But in the cases of fighting against the "indigenous populations", the result was that the dominant culture spread and the locals were marginalized, subsumed, or assimilated. Pockets still exist, of course - Russia is fucking big - but few people have cared enough to go hunting for old customs and religions and legends.
>>43996243
Wouldn't put it past Putin. He was a KGB functionary in East Germany, could have picked up on the local slavs while there. This actually reminds me of the Russian Empire's justification for wars into Europe - pan-slavism. Basically, when nationalism was bubbling up in Europe, Russia went a step further and said all slavs should be under one rule - Russia's, of course. The Balkans would not have been as much of a powderkeg for WW1 if Russia hadn't been feeding its own loyalists in there. Of course, Russia's been obsessed with, first, a port that doesn't ice over in the winter (hello Black Sea campaigns against turks) and then control over the straits into the Mediterranean. So on top of pan-slavism you get the same rhetoric about Constantinople as Putin recently voiced about Crimea and Kherson: "this land is sacred to us because that's where our Christianity comes from". With a history stretching a thousand years and ties to lots of foreign lands one way or another, there's plenty of historical facts to dust off and tout as casus belli.
>>43996304
History degrees, how do they work?They don't.
>>43996386
Anyway, to loop us back to OP's topic and relevance to board: what you get out of "Russia" will differ wildly and depend on a) time period, b) geographical location, and c) which sources you're using/choosing to believe.
If you're setting a game (or using inspiration from) "Russia" before 800ish, you probably want to look up Slavic mythology. Also, as a personal suggestion, search for Russian superstitions. Even if the sources of the customs are lost, throwing random spooky shit at your players is great for atmosphere. Mythological creatures fold right into this as well.
If you're looking at 900s, you have the beginnings of the written record (Cyrillics gets brought in by monks) and Christianization. You have a wonderful dychotomy here: the ruling class isn't really vikings any more, they've settled down and accepted the fact they rule over these stupid (remember, different language and culture and so on) peasants who just happen to maintain a city on a major trade route. The ruling class wants Christianity, because a book religion is the way to get recognized as *somebody* (remember what's happening in Europe at this time). The locals are superstitious. The land is dangerous. The nobles are tied to the cities they live in, limited to lashing out against their neighbors. If you leave for another town, you might as well not exist, unless someone meets you along the trade route and brings news back. This is perfect for adventuring.
By the 1000s the population is more or less Christian by force. Pagan customs have been pushed back, at least publicly. Doesn't mean the land is any less dangerous, or the mystical creatures have ceased existing, though. The peasants are basically between two flames - the nobles are pushing Christianity on everyone, but the old customs too demand obedience. So old customs devolve into superstitions, and fairy tales, and vague stories of danger that waits for your immortal soul. Nobles war, trade flows, peasants live.
>>43996386
>So on top of pan-slavism you get the same rhetoric about Constantinople as Putin recently voiced about Crimea and Kherson: "this land is sacred to us because that's where our Christianity comes from"
Recently I've heard Putin say exactly the same thing about Syria.
>>43996468
Sovietbro, since you are here, and this is relevant... what alcoholic drinks are Russian basics outside vodka?
Like, what is a common beer type? Wine? Is meade still in production?
Seriously, this is important.
>>43996468
1100s are a time of strife among the nobles, which would actually make a great setting for a kingdom-builder. Remember, Moscow doesn't get founded until 1147, so in theory you could have a group of players be a band of minor nobles, or adventurers led by one, seeking to settle their tribe (or take over the leadership of one, assuming they can get together an army) and build their own princedom with as much claim on the Grand Prince title as the others. You'd be building on the outskirts of the "settled" lands, the way Moscow was, but you might just luck out.
1200s are where everything goes to shit. Mongols. How do you defend against an undefeatable foe? Do you run? Do you bargain? Do you turn on your fellow princes? This isn't 20th century warfare, with its fronts and its trenches; you have a large mass of people roll through your land, like a wave, hit your city and then leave.
1300s are the Mongol yoke. Political dickery among the princes, angling for power but not too much power, or the next time you deliver the loot to the Mongols your delegation will end up slain in the night. (There's a rumor I heard about the Mongols forcing Russian princes to drink lots of alcohol, so that any who would seek the Mongols harm would have their tongues loosened and be betrayed. As the Russian saying goes, "what the sober man has on his mind, the drunk has on his tongue".) Can you put together an army and actually win on the battlefield, like at Kulikovo Pole?
1400s are basically the start of imperial politics. The Mongols are less a threat and more a land source. Byzantium has fallen, and Russia is in position to pick up the purple mantle. Expand your land to back up your claim, have the princes bow down to you - by cunning or by force. Make the Europeans acknoweldge you.
>>43996500
It will sadden you to know that I personally do not drink. (Bad example in the family.) That said, I can go into more detail on alcohol in a moment.
Russian rulers podcast, if you feel like putting in a lot of time. It is doing an excellent job. Though he is a bit biased feeling strongly for his own russian background.
>>43996574
>Bad example in the family
Naw, bro, I don't hold it against you.
I have some members of the family that take to the sauce too damn easily. My father was one of them, but he kept it low key enough to not stop him from being a good dad.
This тoвapищ here is spot on. Although I wouild argue that modern Russia in indeed heir of old princedoms due to fact nobody else having a anyform of legitimate claim. Kind of similar to modern "Persia" in a way.
>>43996574
Educational as fuck. Thanks based Rusbro!
>>43996488
Politics. The further you dig into history, the easier it becomes to justify anything. Hell, right now Russian media is in a hysteria over the sudden rediscovery of an ancient foe - the turk.
>>43996500
On the subject of drinking, what you must consider is that Russians do not drink the way Westerners do. You do not go to a bar to drink socially, no. You go to a restaurant (if you have money), or more likely you get together at someone's place. If you've never been to a Russian restaurant, imagine a multi-course meal where everything is on the table at once - and once you're done with the appetizers, there's another course being brought out, and then again as you move to the main course, and then again for dessert. The reason food is important is because Russians toast - say what, exactly, they are raising their glasses for - then drain them AND CHASE THE DRINK DOWN WITH FOOD. This is incredibly important, because you get drunk on an empty stomach much faster. Because of this, Russians can sit together drinking and talking and eating for hours. Being exposed to alcohol in this context over years builds up a tolerance as well.
Wine is not a Russian thing, because most of Russia isn't good terrain for it. South of Ukraine (Crimea included or excluded, based on your preference), Moldova, and especially the Caucasus region are/were the big wine spots in the Soviet Union. Unfortunately, when Comrade Gorbachev decided to fight general drunkenness as part of Perestroika, local dumbasses took this as a cue to start cutting down the vines. I shouldn't need to tell you this shit does not come back right away.
Vodka is the most popular drink, bar none. (During the 90s, I remember hearing jokes about it being the only stable unit of currency.) Beer is common too, and that does get imbibed the way it does in the west. It's looked down upon during the "sit-down" gatherings, in my experience, partly because it does not mix well with harder stuff. (Cont)
>>43996667
>education CONTINUES
Now, I have a Russian friend whom I am close with (and whose mom wants my dick, it's scary mang), and when we were drinking, she looked askance at how the rest of us were drinking, ie sips during the meal, whilst she murdered her shit in one go, earning light applause from the boys, then ate.
>>43996667
Good, informative & entertaining read. Thank you for that.
Any info on historical alcoholic drinks? I once read the drink referred to as vodka in earlier history doesn't have too much in common with the drink of today - is there any truth to this?
>>43996667
This guy really knows his shit. Im a history major and he is summing this shit up greatly. I tend to ramble.
>>43995896
This desu senpai.
>>43996667
>>43996627
Cognac, champagne, port wine (or whatever the non-proprietary names are nowadays) see table space too, but they're mostly used due to preference. Champagne specifically is reserved for festive occasions, though the rich may be more frugal with it, as the rich do. Vodka is the "lingua franca" of drinks - everyone drinks it, so you can't go wrong bringing it.
Mead, interestingly enough, was definitely a thing. References to "med-pivo", literally "honey-beer", exist in folk sayings and have made it into Pushkin's writing (the great Russian poet who happens to be a descendant of a black servant brought by Peter the Great from Europe, murdered in a duel if you believe forensic investigations conducted 150 years after the fact). Point is, mead was most likely a drink that was popular and widespread, due to the fact that Russian terrain has an easier time with apiaries than grapes. If you're looking for other, low-to-no alcohol stuff that would definitely be drunk in not!Russia, check out kvass and kefir.
>>43996657
Not actually Russian. I'm trying to be as professional as I can and am leaving my personal feelings on what the Kremlin is doing to my country of origin at the door, but please don't call me that. I'll explain if you want, because there is relevant history in there, but I don't want to go /pol/ on anyone.
>>43996704
That's how it goes (with the drink, wouldn't know about your dick). Russian shots are generally measured to 100ml, and commonly referred to as "stopka" or "100 gram". Some people may drink half a shot per toast, but most will drain theirs. And when you're drinking for those who aren't with us (generally assumed to be those who have passed away), you drain it to the bottom regardless.
>>43996829
Oh I understand, but please carry on. I have learned stuff that I didn't know from this thread.
>>43996829
Yes, senpai, aid me in wooing Russian women.
>you Ukranian? It would explain a bit, especially now
>or Chechen, shit, can only imagine what they think of Russia
>>43996829
Regarding the alcoholic beverages, I think the jury-rigged drinks from the time of Gorbachev's Prohibition warrant a mention.
Basically, alcohol-starved Russians invented a ton of ways to get drunk, from stealing medical or technical alcohol, to drinking cologne or car antifreeze, to extracting alcohol from rubber glue. Of course, moonshining too was a really big industry at that time.
>>43996722
Possible. I once read that what Jews now call matzos isn't actually matzos. These days, it's a hard, straight sheet of bread matter that crumbles under too much pressure, but there are historical texts where rabbis were asked what to do when the matzos and the bread had been lying together and caught mold and you couldn't tell which is which. So at some point, matzos looked so much like regular bread that Jews couldn't tell the two apart, but the matzos being produced on the industrial scale today is radically different...and no one has any idea what the original matzos was supposed to be any more.
>>43996732
Look at the time between my posts. It takes forever to type and self-edit this.
Anyway, I went digging through my wiki bookmarks because I remembered something that can illustrate my point about the dearth of and disparity between sources. Check the wiki article for Rus' Khaganate.
Now this thing jumped out at me because Khaganate, as a term, was not something I'd ever encountered in the context of the Rus itself. Mostly, I'd seen it in reference to the states south and east of (we're talking Kievan at the moment) Rus. But, if you look at the outside sources referencing the territory in question, it seems they talk about a Rus Khaganate as a "thing".
Why? Who the fuck knows. Maybe "Rus" was at that time settled by the same kind of tribes as the ones to the south and east, and used the same type of title as a result. Maybe "Rus" didn't actually have a title for its leader, so the Byzantines used the same thing for them as for their neighbors. Maybe rulers of "Rus" appropriated that title, in order to seem on equal footing with their neighbors. This is the kind of stuff that is relegated to conjecture, and sadly there are just so many blank spots like this.
>>43996903
>you Ukranian? It would explain a bit, especially now
Bingo.
>or Chechen, shit, can only imagine what they think of Russia
FUCK. NO. Chechens are crazy. Do not get me started.
>>43996903
Be rich and let her think you will marry her. That's all you have to do.
>>43996927
>Chechens are crazy
Dude, I'm muslim.
I KNOW some of my brothers, Prophet help them, are fucking psycho, and while no one really says it out loud, there is the undercurrent of "Why do you DENSE FUCKERS got to make our lives harder?".
But you gotta keep it hush, because the overarching feeling is that if we don't back our own, the West will destroy us all outright, no matter what you do or how hard you try to be a regular person because muslim.
>>43996829
>kefir
Had cherry kefir once.
It was overly sugary, tasted like some fake shit that someone labeled kefir, like Bunratty mead (oh god no).
>>43996829
>Russian shots are generally measured to 100ml
I don't have an adequate reaction image in my folder.
Also, I probably would not survive a russian meal.
>>43996940
I'm about 17 years her junior, broke, and black.
I don't see this ending well for either of us.
And her daughter, my friend, is a rampaging feminist.
>>43996958
Helping you, bro.
>>43996972
Tough luck.
Russian women can of course be wooed in any number of conventional ways, but those who live abroad most likely emigrated seeking a better life, and the simplest road to it is getting married to a rich man.
>>43996922
Oh absolutely. My dad, an engineer (like many others), actually designed and built his own still on a balcony. Didn't really produce anything worthwhile, but he tried.
>>43996940
>truth
Russian girls always have money on their mind. Regardless of the degree of love she feels for you, she's been taught to evaluate potential husbands for their financial viability.
>>43996952
>Chechens
Not what I meant. The second Chechen war "ended" with Putin calling a guy in gym clothes into his office and giving him the Hero of Russia medal. Same guy was a Chechen rebel 6 moths prior. Same guy is now the undisputed ruler of Chechnya - as in, you dispute it and you cease to exist. The murder of Boris Nemtsov (opposition politician who was feeding west data on whom to sanction in connection to Crimea/etc) has been traced to security forces in Chechnya, and the Russian justice system IS NOT BEING ALLOWED to come in to Chechnya to interview persons of interest, to say nothing of actually arresting them.
Putin basically put the most loyal bandit in charge, and now each of them is pretending Chechnya is part of Russia.
>>43996972
Where is a fucking Descartes image when you need one.
>>43997025
>Putin basically put the most loyal bandit in charge, and now each of them is pretending Chechnya is part of Russia.
Is this another case of "He's a bastard, but he's MY bastard" coming into play?
That said, honestly, I don't see too many other ways to deal with the situation without wholesale slaughter or cutting ties entirely. One will have the world turn on you outright, the other is not an option due to misplaced pride.
>>43996952
They really do make things much harder for the rest of you.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who has some cognitive disconnect between "my Muslim coworkers are nice people" and "it seems once a week there's a new Islamic extremist motivated terrorist attack, why can't they just coexist with those who are different from them?"
>>43997010
She came to the states legit, but divorced. Apparently, the father is a right twatcunt, so that isn't a issue. She has a nice old fashioned house in the boondocks with a LOT of liquor in the basement. I killed a bottle of cognac from 78 there once.
>>43997025
>Where is a fucking Descartes image when you need one.
Will this work?
>>43997060
Dude, I work in a quiet office building in Jersey overlooking the river.
After that shootout happened in Cali, I'm getting looks, and I have the distinct feeling I'm not being told about this years Christmas party.
Like, really guys? Really? I was fucking SANTA CLAUS last year for the party.
>>43997086
Oh, yeah. I can only imagine being in your position. I'm sure you're a good guy, but everyone's still nervous as fuck, right?
I try really hard to not be nervous around my coworkers, because they're nice decent people, and I know that, but it's kindof hard not to be given the circumstances.
>>43997086
Sucks. Since the 13 of November I have at least one armed military patrol passing each hour in my street.
>>43996927
Anyway, Ukraine (and possibly my last post, gotta DM in the morning).
We talked about Kiev. It's been called "the mother of all Russian towns" due to Kievan Rus and everything. But the SOUTH (and east) of Ukraine have always been sparsely settled. By the time Russian Empire decided it wanted a year-round (aka non-frozen) port on the Black Sea, the land between Russia and it was being controlled not by the ottomans, but by Crimean Khanate. Russia eventually ate it, but then discovered the vast majority of this land wasn't settled. Some of it was, sure, but mostly by the people who were running away from the slavery - err, indentured servitude? well whatever, they were peasants nailed to the land - into the specifically not-settled parts. The Russian solution was to drag whole villages of people into the south to settle the lands, and it mostly worked.
Cities were a bit trickier to build, so Russians basically put out an open call to any Europeans who wanted to get in on the ground floor of an enterprise, and that helped. (Same thing worked again after the revolution when the Soviets needed people who knew how to actually build shit, and again in the 90s - but those last two times were rather quickly followed by periods of "tightening the bolts", one of which was in full swing even without the sanctions...but I digress.)
My point is, much like with USA's expansion west, the native population was displaced or marginalized and the dominant culture was the transplanted one. On top of this you layer WW2, which did a massive number on Ukraine with both the actual fighting and the evacuations beforehand, then the new wave of transplanted population back in, then the post-war years of indoctrination into the Soviet paradigm (multiple peoples but a single nation with a dominant language/culture because communism means we are all the same) and you end up with a population which, in many cases, identifies more closely with Russia (language, culture, etc).
>>43997143
>gotta DM in the morning
What are you running?
>>43997136
>I have at least one armed military patrol passing each hour in my street.
Fucking hell, where are you at, man?!
The worst I have to worry about is being pulled aside when I got to the airport, because we are all the same, and they check my goddamn shoes.
>>43997160
>Fucking hell, where are you at, man?!
France. It's paranoid central now.
>>43997169
>France.
I will pray for you.
It'a about the best I can do.
Can I recommend moving? I mean, unless you have a solid community, the French government at least hates you outright, and has no issue with making your life shit because hurr muslim/arab/immigrant (take your pick, get the tictactoe).
>>43997186
I'm not an arab tho.
Polics found half a kilo of military-grade explosive 500m away from my parents home yesterday.
>>43997143
On top of that, you need to understand that it became instantly "trendy" and "fashionable" in the political sense to be ultra-Ukrainian once USSR fell apart. And when there's a massive push from above, there's going to be an equally massive backlash from below. So there were definitely grounds for some parts - like Pridnestrovie in Moldova - to WANT to say with Russia, but Ukraine's south (can't speak for the east or Crimea personally) essentially had the stance of "who I am and who I'm with don't need to be the same". As in, you can be a Ukrainian patriot without giving up Russian cultural identity that was established in the Soviet years and/or prior.
But Crimea was definitely not the same. Russia had negotiated to keep its Black Sea fleet there, and was actively supporting local "outrage" whenever NATO wanted to do any joint exercises with Crimea as the base. And then everything got fucked politically because politicians are corrupt always but sometimes it's worse because there's a bigger fish and there are money deals and...
Fuck this shit, we're talking about Russian gaming. If you want to use the Black Sea region, basically endless steppe, massive rivers with some trade settlements, ancient not!Greek or whatever ruins, and foreign rulers establishing surprisingly "civilized" lands within (look for Principality of Theodoro or Genoese colonies on Crimea).
>>43997086
Fear is the liberty killer.
>>43997160
Pathfinder Rise of the Runelords. Session is in...6 hours. Great. THIS is what my history degree is good for.
>>43997064
Nice. Though I have seen a rather large number of melanin-enriched gentlemen with women of my ethnic group, your age gap is beyond the scope of my experience. IMO she just wants a fling and/or is having a midlife crisis.
...and now I need those thread caps of /tg/ helping anons get dates.
>>43996643
Goddamn I meant to respond to this.
IMO modern Russia is exactly the same as it was 1000 years ago. There is a ruling class that rules not because of any particular reason, but because no one challenges their right to rule (despite this, they still look for ways to legitimize themselves). There are the regular people who just want to work the land and be left alone, but they need the ruling class to keep out the other ruling classes of other places. There are still smart/clever/lucky underlings who can sometimes make it into the ruling class, the land still bears bogatyrs and fools, the vast majority of terrain is still inhospitable, and those who scream about religion's importance are more than likely to be using it for political purposes (look at how many former atheist communists are now visiting churches "for their constituents' sake").
And though there are no wild spirits or old gods or dangerous beasts in the big cities, a single step off the beaten path will have you finding ancient ruins, long-forgotten shrines, grandiose abandoned constructs, or isolated villages stuck in time.
>>43997060
I don't really have the disconnect because as far as I'm concerned, the reason why you have a lot of terroriest groups coming from middle east is because of the geopolitical situation, rather than anything to do with the dominant religion.
Religion is a good motivating/recruiting tool for terrorist groups since you can justify any action with "God wills it" and establish an "us versus them" attitude by making your enemies to be infidels or heretics, but if you replaced the muslims in the middle east with christians but kept everything else about the geopolitical situation the same, you can bet you'd get just as many terrorists, only this time they'd be talking about a new crusade rather than a jihad.
>>43997025
>Not what I meant. The second Chechen war "ended" with Putin calling a guy in gym clothes into his office and giving him the Hero of Russia medal. Same guy was a Chechen rebel 6 moths prior. Same guy is now the undisputed ruler of Chechnya - as in, you dispute it and you cease to exist.
Hey, that's as good as Bush Junior's solution - he just picked two people he knew from oil-deals that fell through.
>>43997060
>I'm sure I'm not the only one who has some cognitive disconnect between "my Muslim coworkers are nice people" and "it seems once a week there's a new Islamic extremist motivated terrorist attack, why can't they just coexist with those who are different from them?"
Pretty certain that there are more mass-shootings annually than there are muslims in the US.
>>43997256
>IMO modern Russia is exactly the same as it was 1000 years ago.
It probably isn't, but the basic politics are still the asian ones the Muscovits adopted from the Mongols. The ones that proposes that one person in the realm holds all the rights and all the lands and everybody else's rights and posessions are a temporarily bestowed upon them.
>>43992351
>about the siberian populations
What part of Siberia you interesting?
>>43995896
swagfag detected
I've had a not!Russia in my setting for a while, but in light of this info, I've decided to revise it a little. Constructive criticism appreciated
>to the north, there's a region you just don't go into
>everyone who does just does not come out
>almost unnaturally cold, random-ass storms tend to just blow out of it
>is generally avoided
>big crisis in not!Celtic lands
>ethnic conflict, famine, you know the shit
>anyway, a group of about 20,000 people just decide "fuck this shit" head north
>people think they're fucking insane, word is they've received a prophecy from some strange entity that they'll find a new life up there in Death Bad Cold Land
>disappear beyond the horizon of the never-come-back zone
>this was about 1000 years ago
>everyone assumed they were just #rekt
>one day, strange news spreads
>people have been seen coming out of the death zone, bearing an unknown sigil and claiming to represent "the Czar at Marthorod"
>then the story starts to take shape
Cont.
(don't have many vaguely Russian images, this is the Sweden-Finland border)
>>43997970
So their story goes
>when the first entered DeathBad Cold Land, nothing was immediately
>it was pretty cold, but they dealt with it
>there was game, a little farmland, and enough lumber
>life was hard, and they couldn't leave, but apart from a few "wtf" possibly supernatural incidents, not much happened that they couldn't handle
>kids were born, houses were raised, crops harvested, shit was aight enough
>that lasted for about 70 years
>then, the supernatural shit started getting worse
>occurrences would happen in individual villages at least once every two months
>people started seeing strange figures at the edge of the firelight, many literally out of their nightmares
>troubled youths were found with strange sigils carved into their flesh, chanting in unknown languages, or performing animal (and in some cases human) sacrifice
>people started dying mysteriously and horribly mutilated, or their corpses were "arranged" in hellish, macabre displays
>as a people, they had started to see the truth
>whatever had killed travelers in Death Bad Cold Land before had turned it's eye to them
>a moot was called, to determine what should be done
>one person there got a weird look in their eyes
>said in an inhuman voice that it spoke for "the Jotun", all the humans here would die horribly, yadda yadda
>then the attacks started happening
>groups of ten-foot-tall figures would show up, burn down a building, kill a few people, and take a child away for unspeakable purposes
>livestock would grow sick
>crops would become toxic
>strange, grotesque suicides
>essentially, pseudo-eldritch things had declared war on these people, and seemed to be enjoying it
Cont.
pic vaguely related
>>43997960
the fuck is that even supposed to mean
>>43998107
I don't know but I'm saving the bears.
>>43998091
>a way to fight the Jotun was scrambled for, but nothing seemed to work
>conventional magic seemed to do nothing, and even the druids could do little
>there were no armies to find, the raiding parties disappeared into the wilderness, and the happenings could come from anywhere
>then, someone had an idea
>if this old magic the Jotun had was so powerful, why not study it?
>"only to learn how to defend against it of course..."
>this was an ugly thing to do, but they needed something
>affected youth were studied, a vague understanding of this witchery began to form
>they got the jump on one of the raiders, tortured it to gain information, used it's body in rituals
>learned how to hold their own, if only a little
>then the Jotun stepped their game up
>they brought in wild things, great armies of those raiders, increasingly darker magicks, allowing in tribes of centaurs to aide them, things seemed at their worst
>3 centuries of conflict followed, the humans seemed to face extinction
>then, one woman "cracked the code" on the Jotun magic (considered the first "witch" by these people)
>this changed everything
>the Jotun were dragged into this plane permanently, they and their forces could be killed permanently
>and the people set out in doing exactly that
>centuries pass, the Jotun prove almost as resourceful in surviving as the humans
>almost
>they and most of their dark menagerie were wiped out (some of their creatures survived, and haunt Marthorod to this day)
>the centaurs are still being fought, the people at this point are working off almost a millennia of fuck-you
>the state had to heavily centralize to effectively rally it's resources, leaving a central figure (the Czar) at the top, with his base of operations at Marthorod having become the center of life for the people
>with the Jotun dead, they suspect they can leave, and send scouts/envoys out to confirm to the world that, yes, they're alive
>this was 200 years ago
Cont.
>>43992351
Rus doesn't have really any written records before 800 AD, so finding reliable information about anything earlier than that is all but impossible. Much of their early history after 800 is being conquered by various other powers, particularly the Mongols, and being envious of Finland's many boats. Also they built St Petersburg three times because it kept sinking into the swamp.
>>43998241
>by 100 years ago, they had either wiped out or subjugated all of the centaur clans, exploiting a custom in Centaur culture to bind the entire race into a blood-oath with the Czar
>to their credit, the centaurs embraced it fully, and are now some of the Czar's staunchest supporters, with a path to citizenship through military service
>the centuries-long war had made this people a bit... aggressive
>they are generally seen as a sleeping giant, ready to jump into expansionism if enough provoked
>many thought they would launch a full scale invasion of Goblin territory when a territorial dispute broke out over some iron mines, but other nations stepped in to prevent a massive bloodletting
>with a recent international interest in the uncharted lands to the East, many suspect Marthorod will enter period of pioneering/empire in that general direction
>already, they pay adventurers to chart those lands and make inquiries about the native races
>and the giant begins to stir
What do y'all think?
It's not perfect, obviously, I wrote this at least half off-the-cuff. I have the general idea of how I want their war with the Jotun to feel, but I need to iron out the details to say "costly, brutal war with a race of death gods that ends with holocausting the death gods" more effectively. (or maybe not give many details, just say "it was a chaotic time, little records survive, we suspect this this this because that that that etc."?)
>>43998311
>conquered by various other powers
Like who?
>>43998342
I think the best way to show off the brutality of the Jotun war is in making the descendants of the victors casually vicious and very accepting of death. Make the players believe that yes, these people slew giants armed with nothing but swords, a bit of magic, and their own massive balls.
>>43998342
Sounds cool
>>43998342
It's a fine piece of worldbuilding, though I don't see how it is a not!Russia.
>>43998409
>very accepting of death
>fell into a river
"At least it wasn't the Jotun that got me!"
>stabbed by a bandit
"At least it wasn't the Jotun that got me!"
>dying of old age surrounded by family
"At least it wasn't the Jotun that got me!"
>about to be executed for crimes against the Czardom
"At least it wasn't the Jotun that got me!"
>stubbed your toe
"At least it wasn't the Jotun that got me!"
>>43998451
I meant more of deaths in others, like "eh, shit happens," and a funeral ritual that involves about five minutes and doesn't require moving the body from where it fell to avoid providing the Jotun with a fixed target.
>>43998470
Well in that case, it's
"At least it wasn't the Jotun that got them!"
It's probably like some sort of catchphrase. Maybe an entirely new set of superstition sprung from that.
"Remember kids, if you have bad luck, just blame it on the Jotun! That way you can send your bad luck to them!"
>>43998436
I agree.
It's nice, but the only sort of evident not!Russia bits are "northern region" and "it's cold there" and you could get rid of these without affecting the rest of worldbuilding.
I also meant to better convey that their "methods of warding off Jotun witchery shenanigans" were the result of an odd, inscrutable system of superstitions. I've always liked that idea about Russia, and I think any not!Russia is less without it.
PS: I also had Assholia in my mind while writing this, if it wasn't obvious
>>43998409
I like that, though I don't want to make them act *too* differently. I like them being very marked by their experience, but I really hate races or cultures that revolve around a single idea or concept, i.e evil races, barbarian races, savage races, etc.
I do like what >>43998451 says, seems very "Russian", at least to an American pig like myself.
>>43998417
Thanks
>>43998436
I don't know, it's a bunch of people who said "fuck that darkie shit I'm out" and fucked off to the edge of the world, took literally everything the world threw at them plus Mongols, and came out swinging, pissed, and paranoid. How is that NOT not!Russia?
>>43998470
Them being preternaturally good at moving on is a good idea, I just don't want them to be that callous about it. More like,
>" goddam that sucks, lets use this as an excuse to relax, have a drink, remember the good shit Ivan did, and honor his memory by not winding up fucking dead tomorrow. no, don't walk into the woods to bury him, use him as bait to lure one of the dickwolves, it's what he would've wanted"
>>43998515
You have a heavily romanticized image of Russians as a people who relentlessly fight incredible hardships.
Actually, their response is not so much to fight as to tough it out and hope for the better, while screwing over their neighbors to give themselves better chances.
>>43998615
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that actual Russians are mythically hardy people who drink all the time and wrestle bears for recreation.
This is a romanticized take on it, I wouldn't even want to deny. But most of my concepts for fantasy races/cultures are a realistic take on a romanticized view.
Being totally realistic, most people would just be constantly trying to find ways to dick over other people without them realizing or themselves feeling bad about it, with the occasional urge to eat, sleep, relax, and fuck filtered through biological, cultural, and personal variables. And to some extent, that should be present, but it's oh so very boring, don't you think?
Maybe I'm being overly idealistic, but I'll take the Orc who wants to become chief because he believes he has the ability to be a good chief and bring glory to his people and the Orc who wants to kill his enemy's child because he's secretly afraid of that enemy and wants him to stand down, over both those figures doing the same thing because complex cultural constructs convince them that doing so will help them fuck and impregnate more people. Like, who wants to play that?
>>43998376
It's eastern Europe, pick any other country in the bloc and Russia probably had beef with them before the Soviet era. They also had intermittent exchanges with Scandinavia, particularly the Finns, everyone in the Baltics, and those goddamn Pollocks. And the Ottomans of course who decided Russian orthodoxy needed to be brought back in.
>>43998805
Russia has long military history, that's true, but you said it was conquered many times.
Wow, didn't expect the thread to turn to this overnight.
I'll take a time to read everything and then answer ok?
>>43998515
Would probably be more Russialike if the Jotun's forces were even more of plainsmen and not!Russians mostly fought them in a guerrilla war.
Or if there was a third independent natural force hostile to both humans and the Jotun,
but humans managed to gain it's trust and/or understanding of it's ways and used it to fight the Jotun and learn their enemy's old magic.
>>43998805
>not bringing up the glorious swedish russian wars
>>43998881
The Centaur are meant to be kind of the Turkic/Cuman peoples, getting dragged into the conflict by the Jotun in desperation (centaur possibly worshipped the Jotun but this would be just conjecture in-setting)
The existence of their specific brand of witchery is supposed to be the remnants of them weaponizing the Jotun's own magic against them, as are most of the "things that go bump in the night" in the region and their folklore.
I really do want to keep the Jotun as semi-death gods, rather than just barbarians with powerful dark magic. It's a slight distinction, but important, at least to me.
>>43998817
An exaggeration. The whole of it was under Mongol control for a long time and then individual parts of it, like Kiev, got snipped off. After the Mongols, no one else actually got to Muscovy, but they sure tried. When Russia wasn't busy burning it to the ground themselves.
Question about the Chechens.
Their ethnonym IIRC is Nokh, right? Isn't this also a term associated with languages like Georgian? Are the two ethnolinguistically related? Are Chechens indigenous Caucasians?
>>43999000
>The whole of it was under Mongol control
Mongols never reached Novgorod and prince of Novgorod Alexander Nevsky did a lot to unifaction of Rus.
>>43999229
Didn't the Novgorodians get a special deal with the Golden Horde and acted as sort of mediator/primus-inter-pares/tax collectors among the other Rus states on behalf of the Khan?
IIRC Nevsky was also personal friends with one of the Khans, but I forget the details.
>>43999249
Not only was he a Khan's friend, he violently supressed any kind of anti-Mongol sentiment in Novgorod (with eye-gouging). Russian books tend to gloss over it.
>>43999312
Well fuck me. Captcha went weird and I posted too early by accident.
Uuchlaräi, my name is Alexander-Noyan.
I’m a 27 year old Rus' bogatyr (Mongol fan for you Oros). I draw Oirat script and battle scenes on my parchment, and spend my days perfecting my art and playing superior Mongol games. (killing Russians, shaking down peasants for tribute, hunting game)
I train with my composite bow every day, this superior weapon can shoot clean through steel because it is laminated over a thousand times, and is vastly superior to any other weapon on earth. I earned my bow license two years ago, and I have been getting better every day.
I speak Mongolian fluently, both Pags-Pa and the Buryat dialect, and I write fluently as well. I know everything about Mongol history and their baatar code, which I follow 100%
When I get my Mongol visa, I am moving to Sarai-Batu to attend a prestigious yurt to learn more about their magnificent culture. I hope I can become an enforcer for the Great Khan or a keshik!
I own several ponies, which I ride around town. I want to get used to riding them before I move to the Golden Horde, so I can fit in easier. I bow to my elders and seniors and speak Mongol as often as I can, but rarely does anyone manage to respond.
Wish me luck in Sarai-Batu!
>>43999249
Nah. At the time Rus was under direct threat from Western Europe. Mongols on other hand would leave you alone as long you paid good tribute.
>>43999344
Zdravstvuyte, my name is Temur-batyr.
I’m a 27 year old Mongolian khan (Rus fan for you gadaagyn). I draw lubok on my beresta, and spend my days perfecting my art and playing superior Russian games. (Lapta, Pryatky, Impaling series)
I train with my Mech-Kladetets every day, this superior weapon can cut clean through stone because it is folded over a thousand times, and is vastly superior to any other weapon on earth. I earned my sword gramota two godynys ago, and I have been getting better every day.
I speak Russian fluently, both Novgorod and the Kiev dialect, and I write fluently as well. I know everything about Rus history and their Chest' code, which I follow 100%
When I get my Russian yarlyk, I am moving to Kiev to attend a prestigious shkola to learn more about their magnificent culture. I hope I can become an voyvoda for Prince or an izba designer!
I own several rubahas, which I wear around stan. I want to get used to wearing them before I move to Rus, so I can fit in easier. I bow to my elders and seniors and speak Russian as often as I can, but rarely does anyone manage to respond.
Wish me luck in Rus!
>>43995887
>>43996039
>>43996160
>>43996273
>>43996386
>>43996468
>>43996574
>>43996667
>>43996667
>>43996829
>>43996927
>>43997025
>>43997143
>>43997212
>>43997256
Holy shit man, that's S-grade stuff. Thanks for taking all the time to write it down.
I do feel sad that there isn't much history of before christian times, as I was more interested in the pagan side of it.
>>43997935
Mainly.... how the fuck could people live there at all. What did they wear, what did they hunt, what did they defend against.
So, anyone's got pics and stuff portraiting clothings, early constructons, farming, weapons and tools, armor?
I plan on making a setting set on a huge continental mass with sparse population pockets, lead by an absent king engaged in a faraway war(like in Gene Wolfe's new sun books).
Adventurers are largely drawn to local conflicts, with primitive weapons and armors since the good stuff is all dedicated to the war. A chainshirt is worth 3 times it's wearer, full-plates are stuff of kings.
I really want this duality between the religiously unified kingdom warring near the warmer borders, and the cold land of adventures on the other side, where people don't care about religion and the outcome of war since they have to deal with man-eating witches kidnapping their children, and mabe some vicious megafauna.
>>43992351
short version:
forest ninjas
>>43998091
Woah this is fucking awesome!
>>43997960
>>43998125
>you came to the wrong iceberg.jpg
>>43998311
>kept sinking into the swamp
Hell yes. Imperial Russia is grimdark. Peter the Great's "modernizing" of it was probably as traumatic as the initial Christianization, but a little easier to find records on. St. Petersburg is literally built on the bones of the people used in the construction - a tradition that was proudly continued during Soviet times (and due to de-Stalinization is also slightly better documented).
But, if you know anything about Russian history and Novgorod, I'd like to blow your mind with a swamp-sinking-related tidbit. Novgorod also sits on swamps. There was never any pavement on the streets; instead, Russians just cut down huge trees and plopped them down for their roadways. The trees kept sinking into the swamp, so the Russians kept dropping more trees on top. Pretty standard practice.
Well these sunken tree trunks were actually rather well preserved - well enough to have their year rings be readable. This is important because Russia has a shitload of wooden churches and actual records of when these churches were built. Some historians compared the year rings to establish a timeline for Novgorod based on how the sunken trees compare to the trees used to build the churches, and the weird thing is that the timeline does NOT match up. Their conclusion is that either the whole tome chronicling the establishment of the churches is wrong, or Novgorod is actually much younger than initially thought, and the Novgorod being mentioned in old chronicles was not where the current Novgorod is.
Now, there could simply be a lack of evidence going far enough due to the oldest tree trunks not being preserved, or the practice not starting right away with the city's founding, but there are other places where established Russian history is being contradicted with more recent findings - but these are not the kinds of things that help the establishment of a unified national narrative.
>>43999811
>Holy shit man, that's S-grade stuff. Thanks for taking all the time to write it down.
Gotta do something with that degree, you know.
>how the fuck could people live there at all.
There's an old Russian joke about a city dweller visiting a village.
>Where do you clean yourselves?
>In the river.
>And during the winter?
>It's not long.
Basically, as long as people were physically capable of existing in Siberia, they did. By and large they didn't move there willingly - imperial Russia used prisoner/exile populations to establish Siberian towns; Soviets moved people there for specific purposes. "Mono-towns" (known as such due to a single, town-forming enterprise that they were built around) are actually a problem for Russia right now, because once the factory closes the town is SOL.
>What did they wear
Animals.
>what did they hunt
Animals.
>what did they defend against.
Animals.
And cold. But mostly you've got a shitload of wilderness and the natives with incomprehensible customs who tend to give you a wide berth, and absolutely nothing to do for massive stretches of time except work and huddle for warmth. Is it any wonder drinking is a national pastime, especially when anything that might cause people to THINK about their situation in any way ends up being discouraged and/or outlawed?
And now I really must get going.
>>44000248
Wait, just remembered a specific example. In the 1970s, Soviet geologists doing a survey of the Siberian taiga found something that looked like cleared land - as in, a field. The team they sent there found a single hut and a five-member family that had been living there for decades, basically moving further and further away from civilization in stages due to experiencing religious persecution. (Think Protestant/Catholic divide rather than between different faiths.) The family related some years being so bad they were down to a single grain of wheat from which to grow their crop, but they prayed and it worked. In the end, the family was undone not by the environment but by the Soviet explorers themselves - or, more specifically, the diseases they brought with them, which the family hadn't been exposed to or immunized against.
I really wish I had the link for you, because while this family's experience was on the extreme end of Russian colonization of Siberia, the hardships they faced were described in detail. (Though I don't remember if the article was in Russian, which would help you a bit less.)
As far as the *indigenous* population of Siberia goes, though, Russian sources are few and far between. There may be some anthropological or geographical surveys from Russia's imperial times, "cataloging" the ways of life of the people who live under Russian rule, which might contain more info. Some of these people's lives were largely unchanged by both the Russian empire and the Soviets, though, so what you have now is effectively equivalent to the cultures of the far north in America - tribal people living in family groups with the same hunting, building, and cultural ways as their ancestors. (Though being eroded by the modern world, for sure.)
>>44000347
Are you talking about these?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lykov_family
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/for-40-years-this-russian-family-was-cut-off-from-all-human-contact-unaware-of-world-war-ii-7354256/?no-ist
>>43995921
No one started to guess.
So who are you? German?
>>44000378
No.
>>44000489
Native of Southwestern US?
>>44000135
thanks babe
>>44001839
No, but I figured that would have come up a lot sooner.
