Does it make sense to anyone that dexterity governs lockpicking in most games?
It should honestly be wisdom; you are manipulating the tumblers and looking for subtle clues they've been opened. The motor control is secondary to this.
>>43979984
Dexterity, in most games that have such a stat, is really just a stand in for literally naming the stat Rogue-ish Things Number, or at least the physical half of it, with Charisma being the other half.
So doing rogue-ly things with your fingers falls under Dexterity, since they couldn't justify it under Charisma and didn't want to split Rogue Things between 3 stats.
>>43979984
Does it make sense to anyone that dexterity governs lockpicking in most games?
It should honestly be intelligence; you are using memorized knowledge of locksmithing and determining how to counter lock construction without a key. The motor control is secondary to this.
>>43979984
Does it make sense to anyone that dexterity governs lockpicking in most games?
It should honestly be strength; you are forcing the lock open and tearing the hinges apart. The motor control is secondary to this.
>>43979984
Does it make sense to anyone that dexterity governs lockpicking in most games?
It should honestly be constitution, you are ramming your finger in the lock and hoping the tumblers break before your bones.
>>43979984
Does it make sense to anyone that dexterity governs lockpicking in most games?
It should honestly be charisma; you are persuading the lock to open and pacifying the machine spirits. The motor control is secondary to this.
Does it make sense to anyone that wisdom governs lockpicking in most games?
It should honestly be dexterity; you are manipulating the tumbers with a small piece of metal to finesse them into place. The listening is secondary to this.
Memes asside you can get so much mileage out of a rake and a torsion wrench that I like to think that rouges just do that or play the game of get the pick past the wards.
>>43979984
Does it make sense to anyone that rules govern lockpicking in most games?
It should honestly be fluff; you are using theater of the mind and forging a narrative with the other players. The die rolls are secondary to this.
>>43979984
The ability to listen and feel the tumblers is represented by your ranks in an appropriate lockpicking skill. The reason Dexterity modifies that is because "looking for subtle clues" doesn't mean much if you don't have the manual dexterity to properly manipulate the tumblers in the first place.
>>43979984
I'm not into roleplaying, but my two cents are that a bare minimum of dexterity is all that's need to pick a lock. The rest is knowledge and specific skills.
Lots of stats do not make sense in RPGs. Bows requiring dexterity is the worst.
>>43980052
>pacifying the machine spirits.
40k pls.
>>43980504
The ability to listen and feel the tumblers is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
>>43980052
kek
>>43980639
>Bows requiring dexterity is the worst.
Why? All the power in the world is worthless if you haven't got the coordination to aim the shot.
>>43980707
Why? All the coordination in the world is worthless if you haven't got the power to fire a killing shot.
>>43981433
Technically, if you have perfect coordination and aim, then you can shoot to wound, at particularly soft areas of the body.
But honestly, stats aren't 100%representative of a specific attribute. They're designed with archetypes in mind. Bows are dexterity because they're a ranged weapon, not because of any physical requirements to wield a bow.
>>43981433
Why? All the power in the world is worthless if you haven't got the wisdom to know when and where to shoot.
>>43980707
It's not that Dexterity isn't useful, but like the lockpicking example once you have a minimum of ability it's enough. The real asset in firing a bow is Strength; both as a base minimum and as a facillitator of an increased fire rate, firing under unusual circumstances, firing bows with big arrows extra far and so on, Strength is by far the more relevant stat.
>>43979996
that about covers it.
especially in a game like d&d.
3.5 may be my favourite system but i will fully admit the stats make no fucking sense and they dont in the other editions either.
>>43981483
Why? All the wisdom in the world is worthless if you haven't got the intellect to learn how to make a shot.
>>43981546
Why? All the intelligence in the world is worthless if you haven't got the charisma to coerce the arrow shaft deep into your targets soft, moist flesh
>>43981584
Why? All the charisma in the world is worthless if you don't have the bear knowledged needed to identify the juiciest, tenderest portion of its loins.
>>43981584
>>43981609
Okay, this is getting weird. Please tell me the CON one will steer clear of ERP territory.
>>43979984
Stats are more about enforcement of archetypes than anything, it makes sense in that context.
Why is combat linked to dexterity in so many systems? It should rely on Wisdom instead, since you need a clear awareness of your surrounding and the ability to draw from past experiences.
>>43981618
What's erotic about shooting bears in the dick? That's hilarious man.
>>43980579
Bows have nothing to do with strength after having enough to pull the string.
>>43981677
>What's erotic about shooting bears in the dick
Man, what's NOT erotic about shooting bears in the dick? You get off to bear genital mutilation porn too, right?
>>43981687
Ah, but what if you're shooting a BIGGER and BETTER bow with BIG FUCKOFF ARROWS?
This is fantasy after all.
>>43981720
Nah, just bear mutilation, both on and by.
I mean, they're cute when they're little. But you have to put them in their place, the way you'd put anything in it's place.
>>43979984Hello, I was once a locksmith. I also happen to play role playing games.
Most of lockpicking really does require a careful hand. There is a little bit of knowledge required about each lock, but the basic principle applies to undoing most locks (Those in fantasy or medieval settings, especially).
I'd say that Dexterity is more accurate to the skill though, unless your character is dismantling or building locks.
>>43979984
Intelligence is used to acquire extra skill points to be put into lockpicking; this is learning the know-how
Dexterity is used when picking the actual lock. Knowledge of lock construction is not going to do you lot of good if you can't manipulate the picks with your fat fingers.
>>43981507
Thing is, the main way strength affects accuracy (which is the only thing your attributes modify for bows, barring damage with composite bows which IS strength) is by preventing/mitigating fatigue in sustained use. Most fights in RPGs are quick, bloody skirmishes, over in a matter of 30 seconds or less, where fatigue really isn't a factor...and for longer fights, most games don't bother to model the effects of fatigue regardless.
Dexterity, your precision and coordination to put the shot where you want it, is perfectly reasonable as the key stat for determining if your arrow hits or not.
>>43979984
Well, when you put it that way, Attributes seem kind of dumb.
>>43982941
Any system of abstraction seems kind of dumb when you think about it too hard. Nothing actually fits neatly into discrete categories like how games represent your stats. But that sort of thing is necessary to avoid having your game become Physics: The Computer Modeling.
>>43982919
>strength affects accuracy
This is where you're thinking about it wrong. Strength is the ability to pull back the drawstring and keep the arrow straight against the bow at all. It's also how far back you can pull the arrow, which determines the speed and distance of its flight and the force it carries as well as how straight it flies.
>Dexterity, your precision and coordination to put the shot where you want it
There's only a certain amount of Dexterity needed to a) notch an arrow b )put the arrow flat next to the bow, perpendicular to the curve c) pull back the string d) release. Spatial awareness - which is indeed an issue for many people - is more important to accuracy in this process than dexterity.
Dexterity would come in handy if you want to backflip while shooting a bow or contort yourself around a wall or cover to take a cheeky potshot.
>>43983021
There's no perception stat, so stuff like spatial awareness and every other factor like it involved in aiming would be dexterity.
But how it works in real life doesn't mean jack fucking shit to game designers. Ranged weapons use DEX because Melee uses STR, and you can't have a stat that's useless in combat.
>>43983021
There's only a certain amount of strength necessary to draw the bow back and hold it in place while you take aim. Having more strength won't help you aim any more precisely, except -- as noted -- insofar as it helps you avoid deterioration of your ability to hold steady due to fatigue.
And spatial awareness is generally considered part of Dexterity, given that it is the stat governing eye-hand and gross body coordination, both of which rely heavily on spatial awareness.You skipped the most crucial step between C and D, which is aim the arrow at the target. This is absolutely Dexterity, as you need to not only know where you need the arrow to be, but have enough coordination to get it angled just right. Even a very small discrepancy one way or another will mean the difference between a hit and a miss. Precision is the name of the game, and precision in matters of physical tasks is solidly Dexterity.
Put it this way: When I was in Boy Scouts, the one thing that kept me from earning the Archery merit badge was the target shooting requirement. I didn't fail that because I was too wimpy to draw the bow, but rather because I wasn't coordinated enough to keep it pointing the arrows properly. Pumping iron to build my arm strength wouldn't have helped me to meet the accuracy requirements; developing my eye-hand coordination and fine motor skills to aim more precisely would.
Of course, realistically, what's most important is neither raw, generalized strength nor raw, generalized dexterity, but training and familiarity with the weapon. Which is in fact how it typically goes; your stats are a factor, yes, but generally not as major as your bonus in attack/proficiency/weapon skill/whatever the game uses.
>>43979984
Does it make sense to anyone that dexterity governs lockpicking in most games?
It should honestly be Perception; you are manipulating the tumblers and looking for subtle clues they've been opened. The motor control is secondary to this.
Nah. I've done it and it's all fine motor skills until you find the last tumbler, then it's even more fine motor skill. I would say intelligence would help for knowing you're on the last tumbler, based on your knowledge of locks, maybe. If you slip past it without realizing you may be there a while.
>>43980052
>you are persuading the lock to open and pacifying the machine spirits. The motor control is secondary to this.
Surely that IS motor control
From a realism standpoint nearly ANY task that isn't purely physical would be Intelligence; I'm sure everyone here has worked with/known at least one person in their lives who have trouble getting ANYTHING right because they're as dumb as a fencepost, regardless of how supposedly physical the task is.
Shit, you could even say higher Intelligence acts as a bonus or lower as a penalty for certain physical tasks; I used to work for one guy who could lift shit just fine but lifted it in least possible efficient way and would sometimes complete the wrong task.
But it's not simulationism you're talking about here; it's D&D, and D&D uses Dex for different reasons.
>>43982167
I'll stick with what the locksmith says is important to picking locks.
>>43983671
Well what does a locksmith say about picking locks?
>>43980504
>Rogues keep opening my tumbler locks
>Since I replaced um with tumblr locks instead nobody's had the nerve to break in.
>>43983724
I'm guessing he says this >>43982167
>>43982167Former juvenile delinquent here. I also happen to play roleplaying games.
This pretty much. Contrary to popular belief, stealing things rarely requires a lot of thought. The theoretical technique for pretty much all forms of theft is very simple, but practice goes very, very far in making it actually work. I don't know shit about fancy locks but I used to get into lockers and stuff and when you're working with makeshift shit, you can definitely make something unpickable by breaking stuff inside.
>>43983166
>There's no perception stat
Then we have a second weakness with this system, whatever it is.
>spatial awareness and every other factor like it involved in aiming would be dexterity.
That's very stupid. Like there are so many people good at one of these things but bad at the other it's not even funny. Huge hole.
>how it works in real life doesn't mean jack fucking shit to [BAD] game designers.
Fixed that for you. Games and simulations are meant to be simplifications of reality, but they cannot be completely disconnected. In a very limited game rolling spatial awareness into Dexterity could fly, but the way the stats are used (just seeing them in threads on here alone, nevermind elsewhere and irl) makes this utterly unusuable.
>>43983176
>There's only a certain amount of strength necessary to draw the bow back and hold it in place while you take aim.
Nope, the more strength you have the more stable you can keep the arrow, the further back you can pull the string, and the quick you can notch and pull the string back, let loose and set in another one. Not to mention the longer you can go doing this, especially at a good pace, without exhaustion.
>>43984230
>Contrary to popular belief, stealing things rarely requires a lot of thought.
Which is the reason why the overwhelming majority of all theft is conducted by unintelligent people, and also on unintelligent people. It's a game of risk more than thought and planning.
>>43979984
Agility/dexterity and similar is almost always a poorly handled stat where all sorts of things that are really just acquired skills rather than a physical attribute get lumped together.
Strength makes sense because you're either strong or not, but agility governs a ton of different skills that really have nothing to do with each other.
Anyone understands that being able to lift or throw really heavy things translates reasonably well into being able to hit stuff hard, but how does being good at dancing or tightrope walking somehow also indicate that you're good at picking pockets or throwing knives?
Anyone can see how someone might be a clumsy lardass but also an amazing locksmith or dart player, but nope, in rpgs they're both related.
>>43981609
Why? All the bear knowledge in the world is worthless if Climate change has already broken all the bear dicks.
>>43985907
Why? All the climate change in the world won't stump the Trump.
>>43981433
Which is why bows usually still apply any Strength penalties to damage.
>>43979984
Have you ever picked a lock? Knowing how locks works is a major part of it, but it also takes a fair amount of dexterity
>OP has never picked a lock
>>43987373
You are a gentleman and a scholar.
Or a rogue, possibly.
>>43987476
No reason it can't be all three
WHY THE FUCK IS FIRING A BOW DEXTERITY
>>43987476
>>43987495
>gentleman, scholar and rogue
Calling me?
>>43987524
A thought, would aiming a turret be dexterity?
Maybe attack rolls are dexterity, but you need a minimum strength to use a bow. Higher strength gives a higher damage modifier when using one. Mister 16 STR's arrows hit a little harder than Mister 12's. But 12 has higher DEX and hits more reliably.
>>43987524
I think they reason it as a matter of aiming, and also as a way to balance the Attributes with melee vs ranged weaponry.
If STR was the only thing that gave you combat advantages, then there would be no combat niches for DEX characters.
The other attributes are all tied to spellcasting at least, and CON is good for anyone.
So I think it's a tradition that started to give DEX a gimme
If anything, it should be your To-Hit gets modified by DEX, and damage gets modified by STR for all weapons
>>43983221
>>43987524
Because modelling real-life archery skills would be far too complicated for an archetype-based system. Bows are Dexterity based because the traditional fantasy archetype of an archer is an agile, quick, lightly-armored character, and making Dexterity the primary attribute for firing a bow helps to support that archetype.
>>43987585
Dexterity governs hand-eye coordination, which is what you need for aiming most man-operated direct-fire weaponry.
>>43979984
no it's dex. a high wisdom character would go find the fucking key.
or go get a job that doesn't carry a high risk of getting caught.
>>43983844
That's because there's too much fat obscuring the point of entry. Besides, it'll probably just piss them off to the point of torching the door.
>>43988039
A high WIS character would know the hinges on the door can be undone with a screwdriver, the wood of the door is both flammable and prone to being broken by axes or similar implements, and that he probably doesn't need the thing on the other side if he has time to think about it anyway.
>>43988124
LOCKPICKING IS RAPE. LOCKS ARE NONGENDERED. CHECK YOUR FUCKING PRIVILEGE.
>>43988275
And that's when I set fire to the door and jerk off onto the lock.
>>43988580
Sir, you are violating the lock's private space. The lock is feeling threatened by your prescence. Please step away from the lock.
>>43988603
>Takes lock to the adeptus mechanicus and leaves it with the sleaziest tech-priest I can find.
>>43988637
The lock will remember this, anon. The lock will remembeeeeeeeeeeeer
>>43987694
So, we're agreed? Bows demand a strength score and damage is influenced, but attack rolls remain purely dex.
I guess crossbow damage remains dex as well, you can't really crank those any further back than they're designed to crank. Strength determines rearming speed?
Guns demand some str to lift and compensate for recoil, but are purely dex in damage. Con is needed to use for prolonged periods of time without minor penalties.
>>43988678
See, the issue with this is that you're quicklæy turning something that will happen often very very complex.
>>43983844
You're lucky noone has tried, tumblr locks are way to easy to trigger.
>>43988724
Bow. Prerequisite on use; training and X STR or suffer untrained penalties.
Base attack roll is XdX+DEX. Base damage roll is XdX+STR.
Seems simple enough aside from the gun/con thing.
sounds like /tg/ is making a new edition of AD&D in here
>>43987585
A naval turret operation should be INT and WIS based.
>>43988828
DEX to determine crit and the crit rate. Base damage is STR.
What's the difference between base attack roll and base damage roll?
>>43980680
Then why are you still in jail, Vader?
>>43983176
On a tangent, you should just shoot lots. Archery muscles are better built by shooting archery than lifting weights. You develop those muscles, cultivate muscle memory, practice form and from there you become consistent, which lets you become accurate. It may be too late to get that merit badge, but it's never too late to become a good shot.
Contributing to the argument, Wisdom modifying an attack roll is kind of credible if you're talking about instinctive, unsighted archery. Unconscious judging of distance and incline and utilisation of muscle memory to hit stuff without thinking about it, that sort of thing.
>>43987585
Outside of a general "accuracy with projectiles" score, I don't think there's anything really comparable to firing an automatic turret. It really deserves its own skill.
(the h key on my keyboard just broke, does anybody have any immediate advice?)
>>43989877
I think wisdom is pretty conscious, it'd be ability to apply your own abilities that you understand more practically than a novice.
Unconscious ability to apply stuff is instinct, or rote training which is dependent on innate adaptability in any case.
>>43989877
>Archery muscles are better built by shooting archery than lifting weights.
Doing both is faster and more efficient than just doing one or the other though.
>>43990071
I agree with you there, I do both myself - I reckon if you're new to it you'll benefit more from the practice though. What do you shoot?
>>43979984
If it were to make absolute sense, all learned skills (lockpicking, driving, fighting efficiently/effectively, reading, writing, etc) should all involve an INT check, and a WIS check, with higher rolls on each granting higher bonuses, and the threshold for succeeding getting gradually lower.
>>43990141
It's been more than a decade since I last shot a bow. Was member in an archery club in middle school and even went to a couple of tournaments, though I wasn't very good.
>What do you shoot?
Some recurve bow with a wooden stock and glassfiber limbs.
>>43990584
You can't have been too bad if you shot tournaments. I shoot compound myself, trying to slog my way towards master bowman classification atm and to find somewhere to hunt into the bargain.
>>43990777
I'd be inclined to do it as a hobby if I lived somewhere I could shoot on my own property, but that's pretty unlikely to happen.
>compound bow
Those are undeniably cool.
>>43980483
this desu
>people who confuse wisdom with straight up knowledge
Nice thread, OP. It got exactly what it deserved.
>>43990849
20 metres is enough for form practice with a compound and (at least for me) plenty of distance for trad bow practice. Obviously not happening if you live in an apartment or something, but still. Since I started shooting I've found that there's a great satisfaction and joy in archery. Worth thinking about picking up again, even if you need to find a club or something.
>>43987588
>your To-Hit gets modified by DEX, and damage gets modified by STR for all weapons
Back in AD&D, STR had damage and to-hit adjustments for all weapons, and Dexterity had an additional to-hit adjustment for ranged weapons only.
>>43992978
>People who think it should be anything else
>>43994687
>people who can't tell the difference between INT and WIS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cio4Bx_9A8k&index=14&list=PLbV4TIdyfSzaKfCv8AAKwOKVoSvCdMz5v
>>43994706
>people who can't tell the difference between INT and WIS, indeed.
>>43979984
FOR YOU, OPDexterity shouldn't even be a thing in raged combat rolls. Your fingers don't do fine manipulation to aim.
Carpentry, pickpocketing, lockpicking, trap disarming, etc require Dexterity.
Dexterity in ranged combat is a crutch so that the Rouge's main stat actually carries over into combat.
If anything, dexterity penalties in combat should just extend the critical failure range. Actual fumbles.
>>43994826
>Dexterity in ranged combat is a crutch so that the Rouge's main stat actually carries over into combat.
Sure. Just out of curiosity thou, what would you suggest is be based on?
>>43979984
>The motor control is secondary to this.
Literally don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
'looking for subtle clues' means you have to feel it ya dingus.
>>43994826
>cherrypicking definitions to justify your interpretation
bad sport
>>43994870
Not that guy, but I'll take your bait. Find a definition of dexterity that does support it's use in ranged combat.
>>43979984
wouldnt that be more a perception thing then?
i mean, im plenty dextrous, and im full aware of HOW the lock works, yet i try to lockpick and its like my hands suddenly have no feeling and im deaf
>>43994899
>yet i try to lockpick and its like my hands suddenly have no feeling and im deaf
Not sure what you are trying to describe Anon, but if the use of your hands causes numbness and deafens you I think you should see a doctor. With a condition like trying to get yourself off must be an interesting experience.
>>43980639
>>43980707
shouldnt endurance or something similar be involved? i mean you ever try to fire more than a couple dozen arrows in one setting, with any kind of significant draw strength?
that shit really wears on your accuracy quick, especially if youre taking the time to really line up your shot
>>43994870
>>cherrypicking
HAVE THEM ALL
>>43994888
>Dexterity - skill in performing tasks
shooting is a task
>>43994826
>trying to cluestick-bash the OP with the specific definitions he was already using
Your pwnage is underwhelming.
>>43994974
CHERRY PICK THIS YOU FUCK
>>43994969
What if Dexterity measured coordination and accuracy and such, and a new stat, Guile, which is kinda like a hybrid of DEX and CHA, measured Rougeishness? Probably too much MAD, methinks.
>>43983021
have you ever used a bow in real life before? release, consistency, and follow through are extremely important, just like with guns and basketball
and the way i always thought about it with strength wasnt that you cant pull the string back if you dont have enough, its that youre using a bow with a lower draw force already so you CAN pull it back. so the more strength you have, the more powerful a bow you can upgrade too, its implied your always gonna be using a bow with an appropriate draw strength to allow your dexterity to make you more accurate
>>43994943
thats why i said "like"
i dont literally go numb and deaf, im just not getting enough useful feedback when i lockpick, so for the purpose of lockpicking, its LIKE im numb and deaf
>>43994850
>Sure. Just out of curiosity thou, what would you suggest is be based on?
1) Ability to hit:
Weapon *skills* instead of character stats
Melee:
- Balanced (most blades)
- Unbalanced (Blunt, axe, heavy blades, shitty quality blades, etc)
- Balanced Polearms (short spear, quarterstaff, etc)
- Unbalanced Polarms (glaive, pikes, etc)
- Short (Dagger, tonfa, blackjack, whip, etc)
Ranged:
- Drawn (Bow stuff)
- Thrown (duh)
- Fired (crossbows and guns)
Exotic:
- Flexible (Flail, rope dart, rope-sword, etc shit that's halfway to a yo-yo)
2) Failures:
Character stat penality
eg -2 dexterity means 2,3,4,5 is a **fumble** failure, keeping 1 as regular crit failure
3) Damage:
Margin of success AND weapon damage stat. Make weapon damage stat smaller and preferably a single flat modifier.
Is dexterity just the hands-down most important and necessary skill that can never be a dump stat?
>>43995178
it can be a dumpstat under some very specific circumstances, but usually shouldn't
>>43981687
>Bows have nothing to do with strength after having enough to pull the string.
confirmed to have never ever used a bow before.
drawing the string more easily massively stabilizes your shooting and makes it significantly easier to aim.
Eventually you get to diminishing returns, but when using a warbow a human can't get strong enough for extra strength to not matter
>>43979984
>It should honestly be wisdom; you are manipulating the tumblers and looking for subtle clues they've been opened. The motor control is secondary to this.
This would be the case for an untrained lockpicking attempt where you are trying to reinvent the wheel so to speak. Once you have picked a few locks and know what you are doing then wisdom is taken out of the equasion and it is purely an exercise in dexterity.
>>43988678
>>43988828
>Longbow
>Description: You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a longbow. If you have a Strength bonus, you can apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow (see below), but not when you use a regular longbow.
>Longbow, Composite
>You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular Strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can't effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow.
So when attacking with a bow you use 1d20+dex mod+base attack bonus+whatever miscellaneous modifiers. Damage is 1d8-Str mod or 1d8+Str mod.
You're morons who don't understand how the game works and are going off so much misinformation it's fucking hilarious. You're literally reinventing the wheel.
>>43995840
Something people like you never seem to understand, not all bows are English warbows. Those are covered by rules for Composite Longbows.
>>43996402
>Something people like you never seem to understand, not all bows are English warbows. Those are covered by rules for Composite Longbows.
I said WAR bow not LONG bow you faggot. That was not a misspelling on my part you piece of shit.
I was not, in fact, referring to english composite longbows.
Warbows are any bow used for war, those differ from competition bows in that they are meant to harm people rather than just put an arrow in a bullseye. Competition bows typically have a 15lbs draw weight. War bows have a significantly higher draw weight. First result on google for mongolian bow
http://www.coldsiberia.org/monbow.htm
>The Mongol bow is not as large and long as the English one, but it is vastly more powerful. The draw weight of an English longbow averages around 70-80 pounds, whereas the Old Mongol bow had a pull that, according to George Vernadsky, averaged at around 166 pounds. Chambers states that the pull varied from 100 to 160 pounds.
first result on google for egyptian bow
http://margo.student.utwente.nl/sagi/artikel/egyptian/egyptian.html
>On the other hand the bows with which they were found - both the doubly convex self longbows, and the composites - look as though they drew about 40 lb. (178 N);
>At first sight, these seem very low values. A standard table matches an arrow with this amount of spine with a bow drawing 60 lbf (270 N) and it might look as though the arrow should buckle as soon as it is released.
Literally the first result in google for draw weight of chinese bow
http://www.manchuarchery.org/bows
>“The Manchus had long emphasized mounted archery... ...when they first established their state their archery was as follows: they used bows of eight li draw weight [approx. 106 pounds]
>>43996876
>First result on google for mongolian bow
>first result on google for egyptian bow
Correction, the search was "draw weight of mongol bow" and "draw weight of egyptian bow".
>>43996876 cont
first result of "draw weight of roman bow"
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?topic=13567.130;wap2
>Using bows with 110, 140 and 150 pounds draw weight
first result of "draw weight of norse bow"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_Age_arms_and_armour
>A yew bow found at Viking Hedeby, which probably was a full-fledged war bow, had a draw force of well over 100 pounds. Replica bows using the original dimensions have been measured to between 100 and 130 pounds draw weight.
etc
>>43988124
Not funny. Learn from >>43988731
>>43980052
Warforged bard pls.
>>43996876
Apparently I need to spell it out since you are fixated upon the names.
In D&D there's only three types of bow. The shortbow, the longbow, and the composite longbow.
The shortbow covers all smaller types of bows that could be fired from horseback or were of the same rough dimensions.
The longbow covers all other types of bows with the Composite Longbow covering the most powerful of these.
Its an abstraction of all the various small differences and types into a simple and much more manageable system for a game where such complexity is unwanted or needed. Its not GURPS fer chrissakes.
I do not claim its perfect, in fact the names should be different to not cause the same sperging out you have presented, but this is the way it is. In addition, its a fucking fantasy world full of magic where physics takes a regular vacation, so you getting your panties in a knot over the minutia of the various types of bows is rather ridiculous.
>>43997111
>Hurr durr its RAW dnd
What an epic backtrack and goalpost shifting.
RAW dnd is totally irrelevant to the argument. The premise of the thread and literally that the RAW should be changed because realism. Literally every post by every person thus far in relationship to this bow argument was about realistic representation rather than dnd raw.
>>43997154
No, they were trying to reinvent how the relationship of bows, Strength and Dexterity worked on a faulty understanding of how rules actually worked. Basing it off a weird hyperfocus on what dexterity meant based on faulty logic stemming from use of the dictionary instead of consulting the actual rule book, and an overbroad idea of what strength was for.
All of this based on a shitty understanding of what the rules for D&D are and more specifically what the attributes actually mean and their role within the game. I merely informed them of just how fucking stupid they were, and how their ideas were merely a shitty attempt to come up with a better version of the rules.
Then you sperged out at the names that are used to represent the three broad categories of bow within the game.
That realism was called out for being well, unrealistic. Based on faulty understanding of just what was meant by the name, but also by the level of detail inherent within the stat. It was called out and settled fairly early on by multiple people, from archers to locksmith/thieves. And it was settled that Dexterity was meant for ranged and lockpicking as the stat is a fairly broad take on general coordination, agility, and reflexes, whereas strength is about brute force and its applications.
Being able to use a bow is already handled in the rules in a way that makes playing the game fun, makes sense if you give it even a moment's thought toward why its abstracted that way, and not needlessly complex to satisfy some weird realism boner that far too many morons here have. Its D&D not GURPS fer chrissakes.
>>43997332
Well, at least you have earnestly given in to your pre-conceived notions.
Nothing could ever contadict them, but you're honest about it.
>>43996876
Are you the same guy who can't read English in every thread?
>>43994826
>>43995154
Everyting you say makes sense and isn't worded faggily. Best poster in this thread.
>>43994974
The wole point of defining characters by a range of differing stats is to determine their levels of "skill in performing tasks" (which is a baffling saying as what other kind of skill is there?). Having one stat that just covers all ability is retarded. If you want an overall measure of a character's ability look at his level.
>>43995038
>have you ever used a bow in real life before?
Yes, have you?
>release, consistency, and follow through are extremely important
Factors which I've considered. Strength is again more important that dexterity.
>release, consistency, and follow through are extremely important
That's a big and baseless assumption. You don't have any idea what kind of bow you're character's using. If there's a range of bows in the shops with different Strength demands then allowing your character to pick the most effective one for his Strength is exactly the point of tying Bow Use and Strength to each other - to facillitate a simple realism in the game.
Furthermore, if this "youre already using a bow like that" logic applies to Strength, it also applies to Dexterity. Except as already explained, you only need a certain about of finger ability and general bodily coordination to line up an arrow in a bow. Extra dexterity might allow you to maintain your NORMAL accuracy in unusual circumstances but it won't improve your accuracy when stood in a NORMAL ideal position, nevermind over the long run - while bodily strength definitely will keep you accurate as you keep on firing.
>>43995178
By the game's usage of dexterity to determine stuff like bow accuracy, I have no idea.
By more realistic logic, their are dozens of ways for an adventurer in various settings to perform well with below average dexterity. Big tough dude with a hammer and lots of patience and good manners. Sneaky sniper who only picks on lonesome targets he can take out with one kill. Dilettant with magic powers. And so on.
>arguing D&D design
We Special Olympics now.
>>43998608
>talking about PnP and board games is retarded
Why are you here?
>>43998546
It's just, at least in D&D, Dexterity governs a majority of skills, gives bonuses to AC, reflex, CMD, and initiative. I'm always going to be noticeably worse off as a melee character with below average or average dex, compared to a character that has much higher dexterity as well as strength and all the gear a fighter, paladin or a barbarian can get.
And even in a game like Shadowrun, the closest equivalent - agility - is really necessarily if you want to be able to shoot a gun. The only game I know of that doesn't really have you rely too much on that is Deathwatch, since your weapons and ballistics skills are separate skills, and your armor is the only AC you really get. Agility is only used for maybe dodging on top of that.
>>43999374
Yeah I gathered all that. There are good simplifications of reality for game purposes and there are bad ones; DnD Dex is among the latter.
>>43999709
It might have been intended to make characters that didn't rely on strength or large weapons still good in a fight, but they didn't take into account a barbarian with good dex.
>>43981479
That doesn't really mean much if the arrow won't even reach the target because you don't have enough strength to pull the string far enough.
>>43983166
>Ranged weapons use DEX because Melee uses STR, and you can't have a stat that's useless in combat.
There are systems were Melee and Range use both DEX and STR, though.
>>44000430
>There are systems were Melee and Range use both DEX and STR, though.
There's also a ton of systems that say Dexterity when the mean Agility and say Agility when they mean Dexterity.
>>43984524
>but how does being good at dancing or tightrope walking somehow also indicate that you're good at picking pockets or throwing knives?
Which is why DEX and AGI are different things in a lot of systems.
>>44000464
No, huge bloat is why those are separate stats.
>>43980483
Agreed, I think coming up with a plausible method to open a crate or door could work.
>>44000335
Far from might, it was the almost-explicit purpose. You can understand why the designer's did it from a "let's hack this simple and thoughtless system to accomodate for prominent situations we didn't predict" perspective.
>>44000508
They are different things however. It's sort of bloat because Dexterity is a (major skill), it shouldn't be a core stat.
>>43984524
Because you're clearly a dirty gypsy bastard.
>>43979996
Which, I suppose is where skill-ranks come in, since they're governed by Int and a set-class value.
Hell, In pathfinder, it's possible to have +4 for it at level 1, effectively equaling the generally highest stat bonus available.
Hello, this is the tabletop complaints department, before we begin I have to ask you... have you tried NOT playing D&D?
>>44000464
they don't, all of those things are skills.
a person can have a 20 in dex and no training in lockpicking and be just as incapable of picking a lock as a barbarian with arthritis.
>>44001795
This.
Puzzle and memory studies show that people are best at what they practice.
In a very specific sense too, you playing "brain training" games doesn't do shit for tasks other than playing those games.
>>43981609
In my new system, Charisma will be used for lockpicking and Knowledge (Bears) will be used for missile attacks.
>>43988731
Severely underrated post
What stat should the skill Climbing be governed by?
>>43994826
Ranged aim does require hand-eye coordination in stressful situations, especially when you switch from bows to firearms. As a clumsy person, I know this because I have no problem aiming a bow or gun at a target when I'm in the correct stance. I have a problem hitting a moving target because I'm always subconsciously moving my body around in retarded ways that keep me off balance.
>>43996993
Samefag, that guy way way funnier than you.
>Not playing an archer who is 6 foot 5 240 pounds and clad in steel plate with the strongest longbow he can pull
dexfags pls
>>44001795
No, but a person who is naturally agile is going to have a much easier time learning/mastering acrobatic feats and the same is true for a naturally dexterous people learning how to pick locks.
>>43980052
Dreamspeaker plz.
