I hold that there doesn't exist a class that you couldn't spec a bard to be 80% as good as.
Bards make absolutely trash necromancers.
Barbarian
>>43976055
What is skald
>>43976042
>not playing Dirgesinger
>not reanimating the dead through the power of METAL
>not playing best support class
>>43976061
A dude who couldn't make it as a sick-ass warrior and stays at home telling tales of heroes because he couldn't go out and make the legends himself.
Assume so.
Bards are 80% as effective as every class.
It follows, then, that bards are 80% effective as bards
Bard = .8 * Bard
Bard - .8 * Bard = 0
.2 * Bard = 0
Bard = 0
Since we assume that bards are 80% effective at any class
Any class = .8 * Bard
Any class = .8 * 0
Any Class = 0
Therefore all classes would be equal.
Since we know this is not true, OP's premise does not hold.
>>43975617
Truenamer, because any build the Bard makes is at least three times better than what the Truenamer can do.
Depends what you mean by "80% as good as"
I agree that a bard can be specced to be at least 4/5 as good as any top tier class overall.
I also agree that they can fulfill the general archetypes of melee, ranged, caster, support etc.
If you go for specific situations/mechanics, they can't come close to punching and running fast and being hard to hit without armor, spells, or prep, like a monk/barbarian
>>43976097
I'm surprised it's not a archetype for bard yet. I think it could fit in with some of the shadow themed archetypes they have come out with.
>>43976097
Yeah, it's really trash compared to other necromancers. Cleric, Wizard, and Witch blow it out of the water by a wide margin. It isn't 80% as good, it isn't even 50%.
>>43976118
That's some damn fine numberin', sir.
>>43976142
unless your will save is higher than a Bard's Perform (it's not), a dirgesinger can instantly force you to collapse crying like a little girl with Song of Grief. For 5 rounds. Can also blanket 1d6 Str/Dex drain as early as level 10. They also get one of the better early reanimates and if the party has another necromancer they can basically make their undead unturnable.
>>43976118
I was going to name a specific class for each edition of D&D to contradict OP's claim, but in light of your information, that is no longer necessary.
Glaive Sentinel Rape Paladins
Evocation School Rape Wizards
WouldyoulikesomeACwithyourAC Fighters
There are a few things. But i bet you couldnt spec a bard to be 80% as useless as a tomes warlock.
>>43976118
he has a sound base case and inductive step i can't disagree.
>>43976268
That's nice, except he is still shit at raising the dead. So he's still a shit necromancer. Bruh, you're still not 80% of what a wizard or cleric necromancer is.
Hell, from what I'm looking at I can't even find song of grief.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dirge-bard
>>43975617
Synthesist.
>>43976141
In 3.5 it's a prestige class.
>>43975617
But I don't want to be a bard.
>>43976900
>Wizard or Cleric Necromancer
>Not going Sorcerer/Oracle into Mystic Thaumaturge and then becoming a Lich for complete SAD on Cha while having 4 times the animate dead hit dice pool.
>>43976118
>logic
oh my god you are the gayest person ever
>>43976900
It is in D&D, not Pathfinder.
>>43976946
Mystic Theurge* my mistake
>>43976118
OBJECTION!
What OP stated is that a Bard COULD be statted to be 80% as effective as any other class.
A bard statted to be 80% as effective as a bard is possible: Just have him use an unoptimized or gimped array or even get himself Cursed until he functions less effectively.
This creates a Bard that is 80% effective as a Bard while having other Bards be 80% as effective as other classes!
This thread reminds me of Dragon Quest Starry Skies and their vocation system. I had a blast playing the minstrel class as a straight all-rounder, getting to 14 in most classes and taking all of the first four perks way early in the game. The character was just above shit at any one given thing but contributed still. That being said, I've always really wanted to play a Factotum. Like, I'd sell my body to play in a decent game as a Factotum.
>Play as bard
>Friends laugh at me because they think doing nothing but status shit is lameshit
>At least half of the campaign
>Better healer than cleric
>Better ranged attack than ranger
>Smooth-tongued pussyhound
>Bros with fellow pally
Being a bard is the best thing ever.
>>43976900
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dirgesinger_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)
1:
>playing Pathfinder. Ever.
2:
Cleric and Wizard necromancers, but ESPECIALLY Wizard necromancers, have very little to do with raising the dead. Its usually death-related magic including debuffs and save-or-die spells. "Undead army" stuff tends to be prestige or splatbook classes.
3:
Song of Awakening is one of the few spells you can have at level 11 that raises the dead with all their abilities, stats, and memories. Better, in fact, than most animate spells a wizard or cleric has access to at that level, and it can last as long as you can keep up perform. As good as a wizard or cleric at necromancy? Maybe, maybe not. But easily 80%
He will never know honor, loyalty, or duty....
Or the joy of 150+ damage on a mounted charge attack.
>>43977330
Oh, and I forgot to mention that no bard spells require onyxes or other physical components and don't need to be prepared beforehand. With a decent level bard, his songs per day should pretty much never run out.
Bard/monk
Technician.
Tao.
WeaponMaster.
Mentalist.
WarriorMentalist.
WizardMentalist.
>>43977330
>"Undead army" stuff tends to be prestige or splatbook classes. Mostly it's the cleric since it's basically the most broken class that you could ever fucking make.
FTFY boytoy.
>>43976136
>Without armor, spells
good thing they actually have that then
>>43975617
Sublime chord, bitch.
>>43975617
But what aboutanything I might want to play?
>>43977376
But he could well know the joy of 120+ damage on a mounted attack.
As for the first three when the fuck did paladins monopolize that shit?
Come to think about it, what about a setting where conservation of alignment is a law of nature? Where there can only be a certain number of lawful good beings in the universe?
>>43975617
This
http://pastebin.com/ZqSGrwwT
>>43975617
That's fancy.
As a DM, I frequently push my players to 100% of their character's classes max potential abilities. Which would leave you 20% short in any given situation.
Your move.
>>43976141
In Pathfinder at least, it's literally a Bard archetype.
One I had great fun with. Had plans to go full Lich eventually and steal another Lich's mountain to turn into a rock hall.
>>43975617
If you have to spec into that class, why not choose the class from start and get 100%?
>>43975617
That's always been the point. Bard is red mage, not "was based on red mage", Red Mage was an AD&D Bard with the numbers filed off.
>>43981188
Except the remaining 20% of the bard is "lord high everything else". You can fill about any hole in a party. You're the redundancy.
