>One of our many goals since the game began was making the game feel more inclusive for women. Game playing has historically been more thought of as a male activity and when the game started we wanted to strongly express that Magic was not just a game for men which is why we used “he or she” rather than “he”. Another ramification on changing “he or she” to “they” is losing “she” in text on cards. While we have come a long way (our last big deep dive showed female players up to 38%), we still have more work to do and losing “she” would be us taking away one of our strongest indicators in text on the cards themselves that we want women to feel welcome playing Magic.
Okay, let's cut the crap. We all know that most /tg/ hobbies are, IN GENERAL, unfriendly towards women.
>but my playgroup
>women don't deserve to play because
>muh 38%
Let's avoid anecdotal evidence and complaints about "totally fake" statistics. The fact is that, while you and your group may be perfectly civil towards women, the hobbies as a whole are not. And, no, women aren't just looking to control/dominate/be fawned over by gamers, they're actually interested in playing the damn games. So one woman wasn't? I can point to lots of men who aren't, either.
So, the question is...why? Game companies are going out of their way to make women feel welcome, game stores don't have "No girls allowed" signs, and I can't think of any reason that the subject matter would innately lead to misogyny. Why, then, is it considered somewhat groundbreaking--to the extent that people have called the numbers fake--that a little over a third of a game's playerbase belongs to the gender that makes up a full half of the species?
Is it really just that we're all actually that autistic?
>>43933136
>Is it really just that we're all actually that autistic?
Yes.
>>43931463
...huh.
I finally figured out why it bugs me when nonbinary people campaign to make everything use "they" as a singular pronoun, in place of the "he or she" construction that is in common use. Using "they" erases gender entirely, which is what the nonbinary people want...but doing so is just as short-sighted as asking "Well, why can't these people just file themselves under the 'or' in 'he or she'?" There are people for whom their gender is very important--transmen and transwomen come to mind.
Why is the nonbinary person's right to not have the words "he" and "she" in print more important than these people's right to identify with their chosen gender and receive affirmation through the use of the appropriate gendered pronouns?
>>43933136
>Why, then, is it considered somewhat groundbreaking--to the extent that people have called the numbers fake--that a little over a third of a game's playerbase belongs to the gender that makes up a full half of the species?
Well, OP, consider that you (probably a dude) decided to screencap a tumblr blog in order to use it as your picture for a bawwwwthread.
>>43933189
Epicene "they" has existed since Chaucer, long before non-binary gender was mainstream in the West. It's standard English and people bitch when we use pronouns like "co", "thon", and "zhe".
>>43933190
...huh? If anything, he's complaining about the fact that women and other groups aren't welcome in the hobby. In what possible way does "someone asked why women aren't welcome" explain the fact that women aren't welcome"?
>>43933136
Maybe women just don't like card games?
>>43933240
Language changes and evolves. Singular "they" is no longer correct in the same way that "you" is no longer exclusively plural. Hell, the American South has "y'all," which is a plural form of a word that was originally a plural form.
We don't write with þ or ð, but instead use the th digraph for both sounds, and those letters were part of English since long before Chaucer.
>>43933136
Please name an aspect of /tg/ hobbies that make them unfriendly towards women.
>>43933388
The playerbase.
>>43933136
In my experience I have come to realize a number of things which can explain this phenomenon.
1) A disproportionate number of men who enjoy card games are intolerable spergs who are incapable of human interaction without screeching like a chimp or getting Cheeto dust everywhere.
2) An even greater number of men who enjoy card games have become inured to these spergs and tolerate them far, far more then they should.
3) Most women are not interested in card games. The few who are are driven away by the spergs in point 1, and the people in point 2 refuse to toss out the spergs on their asses for being spergs.
Even without the spergs, I doubt we would ever reach the magical 50/50 ratio everyone cites as the target of equality, because not that many women care about nerd shit.
>>43933298
Maybe the players of these games are sex-starved wankers that make women uncomfortable with their unacceptable conduct towards them.
Which is a problem with the individual. Not the game.
>>43933189
Because #donttriggerthetranny #checkyourprivilege #safespace #diversity
>>43933429
I challenge you to find a community that practices fat acceptance with greater enthusiasm.
>>43933352
>Singular "they" is no longer correct
Except that it is.
>>43933136
All I know are the stereotype that there are so few women in these hobbies that the foreveralone guys who populate them get so creepy toward the occasional woman who does wander in that they drive her away, and the fact that I have yet to meet any such guys.
Come to think of it, it may also be that, because of the stereotype of them being "guy stuff" people tend to assume that any given woman won't be interested and so won't do anything to try to get her into the hobbies.
>>43933429
See, that's the players, not the game. If someone shows crude behavior, then that's their problem as an individual. Manchildren never grew up, and like all children, should not be seen as a representation of anything except their parents.
>>43933388
the hobbyists.
>>43933436
>not that many women care about nerd shit.
This argument has always baffled me. Not that many PEOPLE care about nerd shit. Dungeons and Dragons is the only game most people have heard of, and it's still generally viewed as something that only weirdos do.
People need to remember that, for most people, the stereotype for a college-age male is a frat boy. Not someone hanging out in the basement rolling dice with his buddies.
So, since not that many men care about nerd shit...the fact that not that many women do, either, is irrelevant.
>>43933470
Not according to most style guides, it isn't.
>Hobby full of fatties, autists, poorfags and beta white knights.
>Absolutely refuse to kick these losers out because it's important to be 'inclusive'.
>Women don't want to hang around with losers.
>Better be more 'inclusive', that will fix things.
When will people figure out that most women don't actually give a fuck about 'misogyny' or feminism of female-friendly language or any of that identity politics bullshit. Most women want to hang out in social groups that have attractive dudes and lots of social power. Subcultures which focus on being awesome and macho and not giving a shit about inclusiveness have loads of women; musicians, bikers and martial artists are all rolling in pussy even though their cultures are all the things which supposedly keep women away from gaming.
The basic truth that nobody wants to accept is that gaming doesn't appeal to girls because it's full of fucking nerds.
>>43933489
>>43933481
>>43933453
>>43933436
>>43933429
Aren't they there because they've been chased away or excluded from every mainstream hobby?
Is it really okay to destroy the safespace of a bunch of socially anxious, barely functioning autistic wrecks? Would your answer be different if they were averagely attractive girls instead of ugly men with poor personal hygiene?
>>43933554
>and it's still generally viewed as something that only weirdos do.
And how many women on this planet care about their reputation in an irrational and over-the-top manner because society fucked up in teaching them that nobody really gives a fuck?
I think we've solved the problem boys: Nerd games are "weird" and women are raised to take extreme pride in their reputation while "boys will be boys".
>>43933489
...and? OP was asking why the hobbies have a culture of that exact kind of shitty behavior.
Whether or not you like it, those people are a majority of the playerbase, and that means that they ARE a representation of it.
>>43933136
>Let's avoid anecdotal evidence and complaints about "totally fake" statistics. The fact is that, while you and your group may be perfectly civil towards women, the hobbies as a whole are not.
Explain how this is a more valid interpretation of the statistics than, for example, "women just aren't as interested in the hobby as men".
>>43933576
>muh style guide
Fuck off, faggot. if you want to tell someone how to write something, then you can write it for them.
I bet you get salty over people saying "fortnight" as well.
>>43933599
So, traditional games communities are shit because society itself is shit?
>>43933136
Stop being a SocJus faggot and just play the game
>>43933136
Despite what the gender-crusaders say, there are differences between men and women that are not programmed in by society, we are an asymmetric species, deal with it. And for what it's worth, most women are not as competitive as most men
>>43933436
Has a descent point. All it takes is a few neckbeards to scare away new players while everyone else ignores them. New players won't know who the assholes are and it takes a while for other players to warm up to you since a lot of new players last a few months. no matter the gender.
>>43933453
Please be a troll. "They" is super ambiguous and can be plural and therefore cannot be used when the card needs to refer to a singular person which is enough of a problem to cause too many problems with card interactions.
>>43933594
>Is it really okay to destroy the safespace of a bunch of socially anxious, barely functioning autistic wrecks?
I'm a socially anxious autistic wreck and I say that their "safe space" is a place called "Their bedroom".
I don't care if you're autistic, black, PTSDed, Jewish, a holocaust survivor, or a wheelchair-bound cripple. Your safe space is on your property where you have the legal right to dismiss all visitors and to lock the door to deny entry.
Any safe space outside of one's property deserves to be mocked, ridiculed, and disrupted until they toughen up.
>>43933586
>gaming doesn't appeal to girls because it's full of fucking nerds
god bless the pasty masses
shame gaming companies don't get it and keep trying to change everything to get more shekels
>>43933615
>those people are a majority of the playerbase
Bullshit, that's like saying someone having a giant ballot form is worth more votes than everyone else.
>>43933627
So, what you're saying is that use of thorn and eth instead of th is correct, we should be saying "thou" when we use "you" to a single person, and there are no negative connotations to the word "nigger"?
>>43933672
Chill, I'm just playing doubles advocate.
There's nothing wrong with reverting the ideology of inclusivity to defend those it persecutes.
>>43933576
Meh. Nobody I know uses "he or she". They either use "s/he" or "they".
>>43933594
Does that averagely attractive girl get Cheetos dust all over my stuff and scream like a chimp while smelling like a week old McDonald's dumpster in hundred degree weather?
If no, then hell yea I would prefer her, if yes, she can get the fuck out.
>>43933136
Women will spend excessive ammounts of time seeking, comparing, analizing and aquiring the products that actually interest them.
That they don't do the same for games spells utter disinterest in them.
The best way to increase female participation is not in pandering but in formatting a section of the brand's publicity in a way that makes them feel welcome. Girls who want to play won't complain about Liliana's boobs. That's an excuse women who don't want to play use to not be bothered further.
>Marketing executive.
>>43933709
>doubles advocate.
Mistakes like this are a diamond dozen
>>43933647
Pretty much. There's entire books on how people's perceptions of others have strong influences on their actual behavior in life by subliminally causing them to live up to expectations.
I'm actually going through a training course on this subject at work this week.
>>43933713
I have legitimately heard someone say "lol" out loud. That doesn't make it right.
I actually don't know many people who use singular they. It's far more common for them to just pick one of the two genders or be speaking in pluralities anyway.
>>43933724
In this doggy dog world it's best to stick to your gums.
>>43933703
Welcome to the written word, which allows us to express ourselves in any means we wish. Even if it means using outdated, archaic, or outright wrong words.
If that gets you upset, then get on board the pity train. File all complaints with Quitcher Fussin.
>>43933586
Seconding this. Women don't want to be in gaming circles because of the nerds. Transfags just get fucking asswrecked no matter what but they hang around because most of them are nerds as well.
>>43933719
>Women will spend excessive ammounts of time seeking, comparing, analizing and aquiring the products that actually interest them.
>All men like football.
>If a man sees a woman and doesn't immediately think about having sex with her, he's gay.
>>43933703
Who died and left you in charge of the English language?
>>43933801
Then you admit that any argument that using "they" in a singular sense is "correct" is utterly without merit?
After all, if it doesn't matter whether or not something is correct, then correctitude is irrelevant to use.
>>43933586
The real fun comes when some specially fucked up person AKA an FTM tumblr tranny snowflake tries to join one of these groups of losers and expects to be tolerated simply because everyone else there is a weirdo as well.
It's a special kind of insanity, like universities adding ethnic minorities to the scope of the LGBTBBQ because they all suffer from oppression. The black students don't want to be lumped in with the demi-sexual panda-kin.
>>43933436
Many women like to be treated like pretty special princesses and snowflakes.
They're about as bad as a certain breed of spergs but when they do it, it's "cute".
As you may or may not know, spergs can enter into deadly conflict if one threads upon the others' territories, and that my friend is the phenomena we observe when n3rdy women meet autist fa/tg/uys.
>>43933719
If a product tries to target me (or my demographic) when it did not do so in the past, I immediately feel uncomfortable and singled out because of it, which drives me away faster than GW prices.
>>43933831
Sir William English, esquire, the inventor of the language. He died recently when he and Christopher Lee overdosed on opium, but the media hushed up the drug angle of Lee's death and didn't report English's.
He left me the language in his will, though, which is pretty sweet. By the way, ending a sentence with a preposition? Totally allowed.
>>43933905
>By the way, ending a sentence with a preposition?
That's pretty cool until.
>>43933871
Honestly, those princess snowflake women should be tossed out on their asses just the same. It's a goddamn card game, not a dating service. Instead of wasting all their time and effort pandering to people who don't care about the hobby, they should focus on upping their standards of behavior in their tournaments.
>>43933871
The difference is that no one wants to stick his dick into autist fa/tg/uys. Girl gamers have a bargaining card.
>>43933962
Well, once we start tossing out the male spergs, then we can toss out the female ones. But too many fa/tg/uys seem happy to throw out all women because of a few female spergs, all while putting up with the male ones.
>>43934063
but then who would we play card games with
>>43933436
Say what you like about BBT, they had us dead to rights with the Sheldon/Leonard/Penny thing.
>>43933790
I'm taking all the posts in this thread with a grain assault.
>>43934079
Women have been pitting their man against his friends before nerd stuff as we know it existed
>>43934079
>>43934128
wait what is this?
>>43933672
I wouldn't go that far, but a safe space has to be something that people enter into willingly, and can only be imposed on a place you have some claim of ownership to in the first place. A bunch of people can get together and create an internet community that's a safe space even if it's public, because it's ultimately their space to run how they see fit. What you don't get to do is declare an entire hobby (or, worse and more accurately, a bunch of hobbies arbitrarily lumped together) a safe space, whether it's from racism or basic standards of hygiene.
>>43933586
Do people who blame misogyny not ever bother thinking through their own logic? So, apparently, there's this huge number of women who get interested in tabletop, experience enough misogyny ruin their interest entire, then leave for good, all without leaving any compelling evidence of having been there in the first place? If that's somehow the case, why aren't there more all (or nearly all) female MtG or RPG groups?
I really admire what WotC is trying to do, but it's not going to create demand that doesn't exist. I'm convinced that the chauvinism in our hobby (and if you don't think it exists, you're fucking kidding yourself) is a result of the lack of women, not the other way around. Less cheesecake and more well written female characters may make the women already involved feel more welcome, but it's not going to draw people in. What we really need are more card games and RPGs aimed at (and preferably designed by) women, which are then marketed to women in a way that isn't pandering or insulting.
>>43933136
>Why, then, is it considered somewhat groundbreaking--to the extent that people have called the numbers fake--that a little over a third of a game's playerbase belongs to the gender that makes up a full half of the species?
The game has existed for over 20 years and STILL a female is a relatively rare sight. I see 100-150 magic players a week and one of them is female. The 'player base' being 38% probably counts anyone who has ever laid hands on a card in their life, including people who stock shelves in big box stores.
>>43934194
>If that's somehow the case, why aren't there more all (or nearly all) female MtG or RPG groups?
...there are. The problem is that it's a niche subset of a niche subset of society.
Lady Planeswalker's Society is totally a thing, though.
>>43934108
No need to be a pre-Madonna about it.
>>43934261
You do. At least, enough to bump the thread.
See, a lot of this rhetoric strikes me as very weird. A large aspect of what makes up a hobby or activity is the userbase/fanbase/playerbase, and more often than not you will find that a certain hobby/activity will attract people with shared hobbies and interests.
Why would there be a need to include people who are not comfortable with the activity or its userbase? Would you benefit from having people you do not get along with complaining about not liking what you are doing? If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to engage in it.
If there's a lack of women in gaming it might be because it's female unfriendly. Doesn't mean it should change. doesn't mean the playerbase should change. If a woman liked the game well enough they'd tolerate the userbase, or vice versa.
If the lack of females in gaming is such a problem because they don't like the fans or the games, then maybe the games should be made that suit them. Then they can get the fanbase that suits them and they want in the first place. Boom, everyone's happy.
>>43934218
I know they exist, but they're a small minority. People act like the initial interest level is the same between men and women and that the community is the reason the gender ratios are so imbalanced, but I've yet to see any compelling evidence of that.
>>43934279
That's not exactly a good measure of emotional investment. Plus, sage is invisible these days.
>they're actually interested in playing the damn games.
This is literally not true. Ever.
>>43934281
>Why would there be a need to include people who are not comfortable with the activity or its userbase?
$$$
>then maybe the games should be made that suit them
That takes effort, imagination and a good deal of luck and money. Much easier to just try and lump them into your existing (and profitable) games.
>>43934281
>maybe the games should be made that suit them
what would that game be like?
>>43934148
Leonard is friends with Sheldon. Sheldon is too autistic for Penny to get along with. Penny is too stupid for Sheldon to respect. They basically play Swingball with Leonard because he can't say no to either of them. All the nerdy stuff is incidental to the plot, because the writers don't really get it either.
>>43934194
And how exactly is the fact that a chick made it going to make it more popular with women? There are plenty of female game devs in vidya, and most of them make things that then end up being the first to get called out by feminists as sexist stereotypes because the female game devs are more often then not making characters with the biggest boobs and firmest asses.
>>43934328
>$$$
If video games have shown anything it's that there is no actual market for SJW-pandering media. They just don't buy things, even if those things are built specifically to market to them.
So the concept that traditional games like M:TG would make more money by somehow pandering to women and non-gamers is fallacious in the extreme. They don't buy things, they don't WANT TO buy things. They just want to complain about things until it's ruined for the people who they felt were "keeping them out", and then move on to the next thing while leaving the hobby they just ransacked in ruins.
>>43934358
Is wizerds Leonard swinging back and forth to try and get the other two's money in this analogy?
>>43933136
>we NEED to make our game cater to like the 0.2% of the general population that doesn't identify as either a he or a she even if that means making the cards less readable.
fuck off.
>>43934328
Which can mean risking part of the original userbase, and perhaps a net loss.
From the point of view of the company making the game I can understand it, of course, trying to reach a bigger market. But what I don't understand is this kind of attitude from the fanbase. Are you willing to compromise your hobby because, let's be honest here, you want to get your dick wet?
>>43933594
I'm not trying to take away anyone's ability to have a safe space, but I expect people to behave (and smell) in a relatively normal manner when out in public or meeting new people.
If you want a safe space, go hang out with your friends. When you go to a FLGS or someone says they're bringing someone new, make sure you take a shower beforehand and try not to scare them off with "chimping out," creeping on people, or autism (unless you actually have autism, in which case do your best and hopefully the other person/people will understand).
>>43933136
Have you considered that MAYBE girls don't WANT to play games?
>>43934197
Don't forget girlfriends who will tag along every now and then just to appease and/or investigate their nerd boyfriends.
>>43933136
>Let's avoid anecdotal evidence
>Entire argument is predicated on anecdotes.
You're really bad at this.
>>43934417
>tfw no lilliana
>>43934471
>115 dollars a day
This might not even be the most ridiculous thing on there.
>>43934417
Companies in general. have very, very short memories, and worse than that, they never hold any loyalty to their customers once they've gotten money from that customer. Remember, they don't like you, they like your money. But once they have your money, they don't care about your feelings or opinions.
Which is why it's tempting for a company to survey the landscape and see an "untapped" market like women, and see only dollar signs as far as the horizon, without a thought that maybe this might cause a rift between them and their previous customers. Many companies will happily say "Fuck you" to their old customers if they see the potential to make more money in a new demographic, because their projections tell them "If we just pander to this new market, we'll gain more customers", which has literally NEVER FUCKING WORKED OUT.
>>43934364
>because the female game devs are more often then not making characters with the biggest boobs and firmest asses
It's always great when they bitch about anime or manga being pervy then neglect that women make stuff like this.She's an equal opportunity pervert, the gay stuff she draws is off the charts
>>43934471
I hate all this 'negging' and 'subtle insult' shit, because it's encouraged a bunch of idiots to act like assholes to women and more importantly has brought teasing under suspicion.
>>43934364
I'm gonna need examples anon
>>43934444
>make sure you take a shower beforehand and try not to scare them off
I'm not advocating people not shower, but why exactly would anyone want to behave differently just in hopes of maybe keeping someone new around?
If the person was going to fit in, they'd fit in without everyone around them having to suck in their gut and hold their tongue lest they offend the new person.
>>43934495
I know a shit-ton of loli manga and porn that is drawn by women.It makes it more fappable.
>>43934508
IIRC Bayonetta was designed by a woman
>>43934495
>It's always great when they bitch about anime or manga being pervy then neglect that women make stuff like this.
You do realise that uncle toms are a thing, right?
>>43934557
She was, but the male dev told her all the stuff she had to have. She did, however, design the female villain all by herself.
>No one should shame people away from a group where they feel comfortable.
>Except for this particular group of people, whom we personally dislike.
It keeps happening.
>>43934573
The technical term is 'sexually liberated female'
>>43934557
And she's held up as a good example because she "owns her sexiality"
Some sjws don't like her bit I've mostly seen positve talk about her
>>43933136
>And, no, women aren't just looking to control/dominate/be fawned over by gamers, they're actually interested in playing the damn games.
You know that's an interesting perspective, but every time, literally EVERY time, we have tried to treat a woman as one of the guys she's ended up trying to control the dialogue. I'm like a lot of fa/tg/uys outside of jokes; I've got a good job, a long term girlfriend and a decent social circle. However I have noticed that every time we've tried to engage with women socially and include them they've tried to femiform the environment more to their liking.
>>43934364
Partly it's because they'll have a better, more intuitive, understand of what appeals to women. Also, as much as I know it's stupid to claim that things like race and gender don't matter then claim there should be more diversity in the people creating media, people like to see people who are like them. For example, I have two Indian roommates, so I have some passing familiarity with my school's Indian student population. I've noticed that Master of None is fairly popular with that crowd. Would it be nearly as popular if there wasn't an Indian-sounding name in the creator's slot, and if it were instead about the child of Russian immigrants? Somehow, I kind of doubt it.
It's silly, but it's just how people how are
>>43934573
>Uncle Toms are a thing
Only to tribal retards who think minor disagreements are grounds for excommunication.
>>43934610
Not when she is brainwashed.
>>43933469
5 star post desu
>>43934644
And now we have /pol/ here as well. Great.
>>43934639
oh man but for serious master of none is hype af desu
>>43933709
>>43933724
>>43933790
>>43934108
>>43934234
>>43934654
>women have to be brainwashed to like ass and titties
Are you forgetting that sexuality is non-binary Anon? ;^)
>>43933594
To be honest, as a roleplayer, wargamer, Magic player, sysadmin, ex computing student and all round bona fide old-school paid up nerd most of the socially maladjusted people I see actually treat men and women identically. The shoddy treatment they hand out is gender neutral but women, being raised to socialise differently, are not used to encountering that behaviour.
>>43934396
>So the concept that traditional games like M:TG would make more money by somehow pandering to women and non-gamers is fallacious in the extreme.
I don't think that is necessarily true. You can market to women. What you can't do is market to women by doing what feminists tell you to do.
Women generally want to get into stuff which successful women are into, even more so than men. This means they usually want lots of imagery of fit, healthy women being either pretty and rich or sexy as fuck.
Fat acceptance and all that shit turns most women off. Only the real fuck-ups are willing to actually embrace something which makes them associate with losers.
>>43934685
How the fuck is criticizing the "stop having your own opinions" concept that is the contemporary image of Uncle Tom /pol/?
>>43934709
YEs but if you disagree with my views you are brainwashed
>>43934685
>Disagreeing with the use of a racial slur.
>/pol/
>>43934709
It's just the other side of that "power fantasy" you hear about.
Men like to play as buff guys that get all the pussy, and women like to play as big tittied heartbreakers with thighs that can break a carjack.
>>43934781
He probably thought that by "tribal" you meant "negroes"
Basically he's an idiot.
Honestly, this is all just a way for companies to maximize their customer base (in other words, get women to buy their products in addition to men).
As for why women don't participate, we can only speculate. Frankly tabletop games have a much larger general stigma for men and women which women may be more susceptible to. This is partly because and partly results in the people who do participate in tabletop games being mostly low status people that may not be the first choice of people for women to associate with. They can hang out with cooler people easier so why hang out with nerds/losers?
Regardless, I think the idea that women will be out off if "they" is printed on the card instead of "she" is a little ridiculous.
>>43933136
>So, the question is...why?
If you honestly want to know why, it in part likely has to do with the fact that men and women are biologically and socially different. Some hobbies and locations have traditionally been male-centric not merely for the subject matter dealt with but also arbitrarily for its own sake: male spaces existed because men were conscientiously creating them to get away from women.
This is a repeated trend in societies. There are throughout history men's organizations, men's clubs, men's sports, men's games, men's forums, men's eateries, men's lounges, etc etc etc, men's whatever was necessary to get the fuck away from women for two goddamn seconds.
I am willing to openly acknowledge that several women, yes even a majority of them, are not invading these spaces in an intentional effort to ruin them as men's spaces and are genuinely interested in either the men themselves or the subject matter of what they're doing in those spaces. But, that doesn't change that it is invasive in nature, and it is felt as invasive in nature.
Women feel this too when men selfishly invade female spaces. It's not autistic, it's just one of the oldest traditions of civilized society and the way our species has been acting since nearly the dawn of recorded history.
At least if I had to take a guess at why there's a little unfriendliness, that'd be it.
And for every person who gets too offended by women being around, there's another person who get's too offended by the simple desire to not be around women for a moment.
>>43934821
Eh that's a little two tone some men want to be James Bond others want to be like Rambo/John Matrix same thing goes for women.
>>43934822
>>43934781
Don't fucking pretend you didn't, shitlord.
>>43933672
Mainstream society does care about safe spaces if you're a female, though.
>>43934842
>I think the idea that women will be out off if "they" is printed on the card instead of "she" is a little ridiculous.
I personally think the idea that we got away from the gender-neutral he in the first place is a little ridiculous. But whatever
>>43934903
So some want to be strong physically, some mentally but all want to be powerful and hot?
>>43934944
I've had girls who have wanted to play Thrug the Brute and similar characters in games.
My girlfriend has a thing for Ogres and Undead in Warhammer.
Back in the mid 2000s my friend had D&D 3.5 edition core rulebook that was entirely in feminine pronouns
It was kinda odd but was ultimately whatever
>>43933136
/tg/ is the new tumblr containment board
plz nuke it hirohito
>>43933136
>We all know that most /tg/ hobbies are, IN GENERAL, unfriendly towards women.
No, fuck off. There is literally nothing barring women from indulging in a /tg/ hobby.
There is no glass ceiling. There is no patriarchal conspiracy. There is just natural biological tendencies. Most women don't give a fuck about nerdy hobbies.
>B-but this nerd creeped on me
And before he creeped on you, he existed in my general hemisphere, cursing me to look upon his disgusting body, endure his bad breath, and resist vomiting when exposed to his fat flabs. I don't give a fuck and keep playing traditional games.
We're all victims if you try to be one.
Now fuck off tumblr.
At first I didn't get this whole trend of trying to lure women into shit. I never really thought about it, though. Then one day I was idly pondering it and it was immediately obvious.
These people don't give a single flying fuck about women or trans or whatever the SJF flavor of the month is. They just want cash, and you get more of it if you sell to men, women, and delusionals, than just men.
Unfortunately, in their quest for cash, they're willing to sell all the rest of us out.
>>43934148
Sheldon's a sperg, Leonard's a sperg-enabler, and Penny's a woman who is on the periphery of the group and whose interest varies from ulterior motive to genuine interest (despite Sheldon).
All the shit about nerd lore inaccuracies aside, the writers nailed the social balance pretty well.
>>43934471
Man, that's the cringiest thing I've seen in a while.
>>43935111
If you think about it hard enough it all makes sense.
The companies want women to consume their product because it's a new market and more consumers means more money.
The fanbase wants women to be included because they would like to talk to women with the same interests as them.
And the few women who push for inclusion want attention. If they truly cared for the hobby there would be nothing to bitch about in the first place.
>>43935189
>The fanbase wants women to be included because they would like to talk to women with the same interests as them.
I sure as fuck don't.
>>43934944
Well "power fantasy" so yeah I'd imagine you'd want to be powerful, and everyone wants to be attractive it just depends on the person's personal definition of attractive.
Also I'm talking about the power fantasy as the person's ideal version of themselves and not "I want to play a dragon, cause that sounds neat"
>>43935225
Are you the majority of the fanbase anon?
>>43935225
Well the part of the fanbase that wants women to be included. Not the part of the fanbase that meets and talks to women outside of that.
>>43935243
No, but we'd all be better off if I were.
>>43935265
I'm continually glad that my wife doesn't really share in my /tg/ hobbies
>>43933136
Great post OP but is there a character that could even possibly EVEN TOUCH Madara Uchiha? Let alone defeat him. And I'm not talking about Edo Tensei Uchiha Madara. I'm not talking about Gedou Rinne Tensei Uchiha Madara either. Hell, I'm not even talking about Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan and Rinnegan doujutsus (with the rikodou abilities and being capable of both Amateratsu and Tsukuyomi genjutsu), equipped with his Gunbai, a perfect Susano'o, control of the juubi and Gedou Mazou, with Hashirama Senju's DNA implanted in him so he has mokuton kekkei genkai and can perform yin yang release ninjutsu while being an expert in kenjutsu and taijutsu. I’m also not talking about Kono Yo no Kyuseishu Futarime no Rikudo Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan (which is capable of Enton Amaterasu, Izanagi, Izanami and the Tsyukuyomi Genjutsu), his two original Rinnegan (which grant him Chikushodo, Shurado, Tendo, Ningendo, Jigokudo, Gakido, Gedo, Bansho Ten’in, Chibaku Tensei, Shinra Tensei, Tengai Shinsei and Banbutsu Sozo) and a third Tomoe Rinnegan on his forehead, capable of using Katon, Futon, Raiton, Doton, Suiton, Mokuton, Ranton, Inton, Yoton and even Onmyoton Jutsu, equipped with his Gunbai(capable of using Uchihagaeshi) and a Shakujo because he is a master in kenjutsu and taijutsu, a perfect Susano’o (that can use Yasaka no Magatama ), control of both the Juubi and the Gedou Mazou, with Hashirama Senju’s DNA and face implanted on his chest, his four Rinbo Hengoku Clones guarding him and nine Gudodama floating behind him AFTER he absorbed Senjutsu from the First Hokage, entered Rikudo Senjutsu Mode, cast Mugen Tsukuyomi on everybody and used Shin: Jukai Kotan so he can use their Chakra while they are under Genjutsu. I'm definitely NOT Talking about sagemode sage of the six paths Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Super Saiyan 4
>>43934471
>>43935182
It's funnier when you realize that she was over a hundred years older than him, seduced him because she needed his power for a job, and killed everyone he knew on Ravnica in order to try to manipulate him into doing what she wanted. He, meanwhile, never even did so much as read her mind.
Being the Jace in a Jace-Liliana relationship is not a good thing.
>>43935359
that sounds a lot like women in real life WAHEY.
>>43934417
I'm happily married and don't need women in the hobby to get my dick wet.
I do, however, want the hobby to be open and accepting of women because I like it and want other people to have the opportunity to enjoy the things I like.
>>43935414
If you need to change the thing you like so others can enjoy them, can you truly say they're enjoying the same things you are?
By all means, change things to suit you and those around you, but the problem I have with this general attitude comes more often than not from people wanting to change how EVERYONE experiences something in order to better suit them.
>>43935414
>I do, however, want the hobby to be open and accepting of women
Can you point to any laws, social restrictions, or anything of the sort that literally prevents women from getting into the hobby?
No?
>B-but you're not accepting ENOUGH!*
>*Note that I have no measurable metric by which "acceptable levels of acceptance" can be understood to be achieved, so in reality I'm just gunna bitch about my feelings over and over, forever
FUCK OFF.
>>43935515
Explain to me how "having more women in card art" is fundamentally changing the game experience for an already-enfranchised player. Most experienced players spend little time looking at the art, other than using it to identify what the card is. It's the newer and prospective players that pore over it.
It's amazing how these discussions always get derailed right around when kids are getting out of school in America.
>>43935558
i look at the card art if it turns me on like synchopate or treasured find
>>43934526
I'm not trying to silence people or anything like that, just behave around as politely in your FLGS and similar spaces as you would in any other business. Some people will have problems dealing with that, but those people should probably learn how to behave in public.
Basically, if a cashier at some random store would probably be offended by it, probably save that for when you're hanging out with your buddies at one of their houses and not your FLGS.
>I can't think of any reason that the subject matter would innately lead to misogyny. Why, then, is it considered somewhat groundbreaking--to the extent that people have called the numbers fake--that a little over a third of a game's playerbase belongs to the gender that makes up a full half of the species?
When the gender distribution of the people interested is heavily skewed you could have a 100% retention amongst the minority gender and still end up with overall numbers more tilted than 38-62. Misogyny driving away women is hardly the only thing keeping women in clear minority here, so if you want to discuss the misogyny then don't drag in the rest, and if you want to discuss the overall imbalance then don't pretend misogyny is the only factor.
>but my playgroup
So we're supposed to go around to other people's play groups and police them now or something? Hold me accountable for my own actions if you like, but when it comes to the actions of people I'll never meet, well, they'll have to answer for that on their own.
>>43935558
Well, explain to me how having more women in card art is going to make the game more appealing to women in the first place? I know I got into MTG because of the quality of the art, not the ratio of male to female characters.
And honestly, my beef is more with OP's attitude than it is with the article.
>>43935634
The same reason why Oxygen and Lifetime are more appealing to women.
>>43935520
>laws
Nice misdirection. None of this is about the legal system, and you know it.
>social restrictions
Oh, boy, you're either new to /tg/ or you're being willfully ignorant. Do you know how many threads we've had that started off with "So, a girl asked if she could join our game. How do I get her to fuck me?" Because the answer is "far too many." And, in at least one, OP stated that he would not be comfortable if, upon joining a game, the male DM made sexual advances on him because "I'm not attracted to men" and "I'd be there to play the game, not hook up." The irony of this was lost on him.
>>43933136
That's actually a really good answer.
>>43935634
>It's the newer and prospective players that pore over it.
>newer and prospective
In other words, the untapped demographic.
They would see more people like them, while the existing playerbase probably wouldn't even notice.
>>43935720
>A guy existed that may have made this random woman minorly uncomfortable by being a guy who was interested in women
>DON'T WORRY MADEMOISELLE, I'M HERE TO MAKE THIS HOBBY INCLUSIVE AND ACCEPTING FOR YOU, THAT YOU SHANT HAVE TO ENDURE SUCH HARDSHIP
This has to be a joke
>>43935753
Right. You are aware that a more efficient way to do the same thing is to switch out the current art style with anime or tumblr tier stuff, right? Just making more female cards is maybe going to draw in twenty people who would have picked it up regardless.
>>43935720
Honestly I haven't seen a "How to score girls in my gaming group" thread in a very long time the closest to that would've been that
"Your teacher invites you over to here house for boardgames is it ok?"
But the amount of threads where people complain about shitty/"autistic" people ruining games/groups/FNM's is very abundant that I'm surprised so many people are pulling the "B-but then where will these cretins be able to go if they can't be shitty people in their own safe space?" card is very perplexing.
>>43935827
wait how would anime attract women?
>>43935847
not necessarily women but people who might have otherwise not picked it up in the first place.
>>43935827
>Anime sells
Yeah man Yu-gi-oh DBZ and Anima are really trouncing MtG right?
>>43935847
Women love anime stupid. Michelle Obama watches Bakemonogatari.
>>43935314
just wanted to post that, huh?
>>43935871
Don't worry, apparently the established player base won't care because they don't pay that much attention to the art in the first place!
Why can't people just not care about completely unimportant shit?
>>43936002
im a girl
>>43936015
me too
pic related, it's me
>>43933189
Celebrating diversity by destroying it. When everyone is special, nobody is.
Welcome to the 21st century.
>>43933136
>38%
>we still have more work to do
I dunno MaRo that seems like a good number after all it's just a shade away from 40% and the inertia of all those past years plus the fact the wider societywhich, lets be frank is out of your controlwill still discourage female participation I think you could just let it run as it's going.
If I was in your position I'd be damn happy with 40%.
>>43935900
Your post has missed quite a few points anon
>>43936002
Because SJWs literally make a living out of pretending to care about completely unimportant shit, and lots of impressionable youth eager to "belong" get swept up in the current.
Seriously, the entire movement is comprised of useful idiots and conniving conmen.
>>43935622
If the FLGS owner had a problem with his patron's behavior, he'd do something about it. What gives you the right to demand that he change the way he runs his store?
>>43936169
Not really FLGS' are gaping wounds held closed by band aids they're slowly bleeding out so the owners will put up with shit stains a lot easier as long as said shit stains are pumping enough cash into the business until they do something truly outrageousthen they only get a 2 week ban
>>43933189
>Why is the nonbinary person's right to not have the words "he" and "she" in print more important than these people's right to identify with their chosen gender and receive affirmation through the use of the appropriate gendered pronouns?
Because, generally speaking, "they" is something that can cover ALL genders, while he and she together only cover some. And using both he and she tends to be awkward, why not use they which can cover literally everyone with just that one word.
Women and men being interested in different things as dictated by inherent psychological differences is not misogyny.
If a woman wants to join a 'male' hobby then she's free to do so, sure she might face some scrutiny as to her motives due to the disparity between genders. (eg: gamer girls doing it for attention vs gamer girls who actually enjoy videogames), but if she is genuinely interested in the hobby then that shouldn't stop her.
>>43933469
What does that have to do with acceptance of women? Do you think women are just fat men?
The hobby isn't hostile to women, it's that women don't want to play these sorts of games because they're seen as nerdy. And not the hip kind of nerdy.
>We all know that most /tg/ hobbies are, IN GENERAL, unfriendly towards women.
Absolute bullshit.
If women want to do tg stuff, no one is stopping them.
>>43933816
>>All men like football.
>>If a man sees a woman and doesn't immediately think about having sex with her, he's gay.
What's this supposed to mean?
>>43936273
Exactly women fucking pop off on board games and RPG's it's the specialized games that they shy away from mostly
>>43934416
How is using one pronoun rather than some awkward combination of two "making the cards less readable?
>>43936132
The point I was making is that changing the art style drastically is going to have a bigger effect than just having more women in the art.
The assumption of that line of thinking comes from the idea that people will be more interested in something if it contains individuals like them. But imagine for a moment that barbie made a new line of toys, with more male figures than ever before. Would more boys be interested in barbie all of a sudden?
Lego figured out that boys and girls want different things from their lego sets, so the toys are different. Any difference in the ratio of male to female characters is pretty much just a side effect of switching the focus. Because most people don't feel the need for representation innately. Because most people care more about what they're playing than what they're playing as.
>>43936231
If that were true, what gives you the right to demand that he gambles his store's future on the chance that women will flock into his store once he starts enforcing your standards?
>>43936354
How many cards even refer to the player as s/he?
>>43935225
>>43935225
This desu senpai. I suspect most women have better interests than I do.
>>43933653
>Please be a troll. "They" is super ambiguous and can be plural and therefore cannot be used when the card needs to refer to a singular person which is enough of a problem to cause too many problems with card interactions.
Isn't it usually clear from the context whether it's referring to a singular or a plural?
>>43935878
Proof? I'd hate to learn that the first lady watched such a vapid show.
>>43936369
I'm just saying the owner doesn't really have a choice if he had more socially functional people supporting his store he wouldn't need to pander to the lowest common denominator infesting his store.
It's like you think owners love hearing the autistic screams of man children and their store smelling like shit all day.
>>43933189
The modern world ladies and gentlemen
>>43936484
I doubt that many game store owners got into it without knowing what they were in for. Hell, most operate more like game clubs that also sell things than actual stores.
If the FLGS wants to change something, the onus is on him. His store, his rules. It isn't your place to say what kind of behavior is acceptable in his store.
>>43936237
Last I checked, there are only two genders.
You got the dick, and the pussy, and you put them together and it makes a baby. That's how nature works. Your parents probably should have told you this at some point.
>>43936567
DON'T TRIGGER ME SHITLORD
>>43936567
Technically, those are anatomical sexes.
>>43936597
If you saw someone looking at a child with that facial expression surreptitiously moving towards a child, you'd be morally obligated to make sure they don't harm the child.
>>43936648
Same thing. If your 'sex' and your 'gender' don't match, then that indicates either a mental instability or a genetic anomaly.
In other words, you are crazy, a mutant, or a crazy mutant, although according to some studies, most cases are simply a phase that the child quickly grows out of with proper parenting, and in the cases where it isn't a phase therapy is often successful in dealing with the relevant crazy/mutant issues.
>>43936648
And off of tumblr and circles of liberal arts students, those are indeed what genders are as well, because this absurd "redefinition of gender to be inclusive to the mentally ill" thing never really caught on that well.
>>43936555
It's not about demanding owners change their rules. The problem is thinking that "Oh no these maladjusted people are totally fine! Owners love these kinds of customers!!!" Is totally fine.
>>43936746
>In other words, you are crazy, a mutant, or a crazy mutant, although according to some studies, most cases are simply a phase that the child quickly grows out of with proper parenting, and in the cases where it isn't a phase therapy is often successful in dealing with the relevant crazy/mutant issues.
It's my understanding that those studies refer mainly to very mild gender issues, often just mere curiosity about gender. Actual gender issues tend to be significantly more complex and difficult to resolve.
>>43936270
He was making a joke about tolerance
>>43936746
Don't forget that you can just pray away the gay. :^))))
>>43933136
>the hobbies as a whole are not
This is entirely debatable and you should feel bad for this terrible thread.
>>43936953
Well, you're wrong.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8839957
Unless you're going to characterize "actively crossdresses and wants to get his dick chopped off" as "not fucked in the head enough."
>>43933136
What the fuck do I care? I'm not doing it, I'm not going to police other groups. What's left?
>>43937106
>19 year old study
surely you have more (and recent) examples?
>>43937234
With the current political climate around trannies?
No, no I don't, but if you want to dismiss a legitimate and thorough study that doesn't provide evidence for your world view because it's older than you are, and I guess that means it's wrong, then I suppose that's your prerogative.
![[ABSOLUTELY 2015]_1.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/WUcW17n.jpg "[ABSOLUTELY 2015]_1.jpg")
>>43937281
IT'S [CURRENT YEAR]
>>43933136
I'm going to share my experiences as a woman gamer since I was a child in video games, tcgs, and board games. But first to address "they".
I know gender neutral or fluid people who use "they" in a singular sense. I'm the first to correct anyone or rush to their defenses. However, as a designer and a writer, I know the pain of conveyance. Using only "he" makes women feel unwelcome. Using only "she" worked fine for men and women in world of darkness and took a step up for women role players. Using them interchangeably can work (V20th) but is honestly jarring. Using "they" feels more right until ambiguity rears it's head. By "they", you intend the player or players of plural unknown gender. The gender is plural but the number of players is 1-50 or whatever. That's the problem and I hate to say it but English fails at handling this problem. WORSE, when I tried to come up with a way to clarify in each sentence, suddenly I found a hidden ambiguity: they works for people and things. No one wants to be called a thing. When you find yourself using the same word for singular people, plural people, plural items, or even singular items in plural categories, you get so bogged down with clarifying statements you want to scream. You may not even still be clear. It's a problem and English raises the need for a new gender neutral pronoun like I don't know, xhe and xir and xirself, whatever. I'm hoping writers just start doing it randomly and see how it takes. It might even be funny in a meta "we are discussing now the meatbag human things" sort of way that aliens or robots might do in comedy a la New Vegas Old World Blues.
Contd
>>43933136
The simplest way I've seen to handle gender in tabletop RPG books is to alternate every so often, based on viewpoint character or to make different mechanical elements more distinct or whatever.
Of course, even simpler than that is to make like MtG does and use mechanical language that refers to "you" or "a player" or "a character", which is inherently gender neutral.
>>43937281
It sounds much less like you're the one using a study that conforms to your worldview than not, I'm afraid. Find a recent, actual study, peer-reviewed thoroughly, and you'll have a point to consider.
Otherwise, you're literally no different than the average /pol/tard.
>>43937281
Well it just seems odd that you can only provide one example
>>43937106
A sample size of one is hardly conclusive. It's interesting, but doesn't really mean much without further research. And most of what I've read seems to indicate that antipsychotic drugs are generally ineffective in the treatment of gender dysphoria. It seems more likely that this is not "standard" gender dysphoria, but a psychotic condition that manifests in the form of a desire for gender transition. Sure, it's a fairly extreme form of gender issues, but if it has a different cause than what is usually referred to as transsexualism, that would imply its responsiveness to treatments might be different.
>>43937369
>gendered pronouns make women feel unwelcome because it's not their gender
>In WoD, men didn't care because they realize it does not matter
I will never understand why anyone seeks to appeal to people who are so uninvested in the hobby that reading "he" over and over apparently makes them not want to play.
How can anyone possibly be so caught up over something so stupidly trivial? Why does anyone think it's a good business decision to try to appeal to people whose apparent singular variable factor to whether they buy your shit or not is the fucking gendered pronoun being used in it?
>>43937281
More likely they're dismissing it because it's only one study, and numerous equally legitimate studies have found a different conclusion.
>>43937369
>I'm the first to correct anyone or rush to their defenses.
Why? You're only enabling a mental illness. If you actually gave a shit about them as people you would be trying to help them, not encouraging delusion and self-mutilation.
>>43937369
People have tried. Thon was proposed in 1884 at the latest, and Co in 1970. None have caught on. And I don't see the preferred pronouns catch on either, because none so far feel natural.
The best option is to just stick with what we have until something that works comes up. Nothing's really worked in over a century, sadly, so maybe people need to just learn to live with it. That, or start speaking a different language.
>>43937437
Why does its recency matter?
Serious question. "More recent" does not equate to more true.
You've been linked an actual study. Give a reason why you don't believe it other than it triggers your fee fees.
>>43937443
People are ousted from their jobs for uttering things SJWs deem "offensive." What exactly seems odd about the statement that this political climate is less than conducive towards legitimate study on trannies?
>>43937509
Link the studies you have that dispute the effectiveness of pimozide in treating gender dysphoria.
>>43937555
You're kind talking like an SJW anon even if the content is different
>>43937555
Because it's fucking 19 years ago and other legitimate studies have been done since then that state the complete opposite of its findings and call them into question. Besides that, you've only provided a single source.
A single goddamn source. How about you treat it like an actual academic paper and find sources, not just one, that're decently recent, peer-reviewed, [blind, double blind, doesn't matter], and you'll actually provide something worth value and consideration.
>>43937369
Now, as a girl who plays games.
Video games: as a girl growing up no one gave a shit about me or anyone else. They cared if I wanted to trade that Dragonite or could beat Lavos. When about 2006 hit, the x360 ps3 generation started and it seemed like women were actively kicked out. Sure, the industry was never kind to us but the players started being douchey dude Bros about it.
Suddenly we all have to prove our gamer cred or whatever the fuck. Ignoring that I would roast these call of duty nerds at a fast tactical game like Quake 3, it shouldn't need to be said considering guys don't get this treatment in the same frequency. Then oh my fucking god, some women dared to speak of this problem and now there's a veritable social gender war. Fuck video games.
TCGs: similar to video games except that once Pokémon stopped being a fad and Yu-Gi-Oh became a thing, the ousting of girls happened quickly. This was 5 years prior to the doucheification of video games. As soon as the first ban list hit, Yu-Gi-Oh became awful, then Magic soon followed. There was serial harassment at tournaments, tons of banning for treating girls like shit--which the men blamed the women for being picked on and drawing Konami s attention. Magic is getting better lately but tcgs just attract assholes I guess. You know, both got shitty when they went mainstream AND competitive. And only after both. Maybe those are linked.
Board games: played all my life and have never been treated like shit or lesser for being a woman except the occasional ass clown on neo /tg/. War games on the other hand I've been treated the absolute worst. Looks like that's pretty common but from what I've seen women get it gender-targeted.
So guess which ones I don't play anymore? Video games, TCGs, and war games. Despite being raised on all 3.
>>43936270
What does trans acceptance have to do with acceptence of women? The OP lumps them together, so why not fat acceptance?
>>43933136
I think its changing but its a generational change. My grandmother would never have considered sitting in a room with other men because it said something about who she was (or perceived as) a woman.
My granddaughter hopefully will play without any stigma around her gender.
>>43937496
Did you read the article? "They" has been dropped because it is ambiguous, not because of gendered reasons.
>>43937622
Link the studies you have that dispute the effectiveness of pimozide in treating gender dysphoria.
Even one is fine.
>>43937610
Well, if you say so.
>>43937646
Serious question: Why should you not have to prove your gamer cred?
When I went to a fighting game tournament, I once gave my opinion that a particular character was overpowered. A nearby person overheard me and challenged my opinion, asking me how long I had played and what my rankings were.
Why should my opinion have been taken at face value without being able to give credence to it? Why should yours?
>>43937519
>If you actually gave a shit about them as people you would be trying to help them, not encouraging delusion and self-mutilation.
If you're aware of a treatment more effective "delusion and self-mutilation" I'd like to hear about it.
>>43937496
If you're a man, gender representation may not matter to you since most of society caters to you and recognizes maleness as the default. Even when something quaint comes along and references women exclusively, you already know you're allowed in gaming spaces. It's not used systematically to exclude you. However when women read male pronouns, it's just one more instance that it is being used to exclude them. We all wish for the utopian world where we can write any gender and no one feels left out. The harsh reality is that we do not live in it. Extremely small steps like gender representation help women into the hobby and as you might say "what should it matter? "
>>43937781
Well, word according to >>43937106, pimozide may be an avenue worthy of investigation.
Of course, that would necessitate acknowledging that transgenders have mental issues that can potentially be cured, instead of forcing societal-wide delusion and normalization of mental illness, and that is wrongthink. I mean, it's 2015.
>>43937760
>Fighting game player
It's coming together now
>>43937760
If everyone is asked to prove their credibility, lower ranked people will inevitably be alienated - man and woman. It would kinda suck to go to a fighting tournament, register at the front desk, and wear around a red badge that says: "HAS NOT PLACED IN ANY LOCAL, STATE, OR NATIONAL TOURNAMENTS" so that everyone is instantly dismissive of you, right? I would certainly stop going somewhere if everyone immediately disengaged me for being too low rank.
Not to mention, tournaments do (and should) have a totally different atmosphere than casual play. I don't run my table at the FLGS like a tournament and I don't ask my players to provide credentials when they sit down for their first session.
>>43937849
I agree. If I was playing a game with a 70%+ female player base that kept referring to players as "she," I'd probably come to the conclusion that the game was made for girls and would subsequently quit to pursue more manly things.
>>43937849
>If you're a man, gender representation may not matter to you since most of society caters to you and recognizes maleness as the default.
>Muh privilege
Yeah okay.By the way, I'm a girl. You're a fucktard and contributing to women being coddled as if they were stupid children. Women like you should be shipped over to the middle east so you can have some real problems to complain about. I guarantee you no Syrian woman studying engineering lets stupid crap like "gendered language" stop her from pursuing her goals.
>>43937760
There isn't an entry requirement to play a game outside of owning the materials needed to play. There is, however, an entry requirement to criticize a game, and that is experience with and understanding of said game.
If someone tells me they play warframe I'm not going to challenge them asking if they have a gorgon wraith at all, but if someone says "I don't play it but it looks cool" I am going to tear into them relentlessly.
>>43937781
Well, it would likely involve treatment similar to that for people with Body Identity Disorder, in which the patient believes a body part, such as an arm, hand, leg, ect, does not belong on their body for some reason.
Studies have shown that those suffering from this disorder who have successfully amputated that limb are happier than they were before, but doctors still refuse to amputate their limbs on a whim, because it is a product of a mental illness.
Then we have the new age studies that claim to prove the same thing, saying that the crazies who have had their genitalia mutilated are happier then they were before, and for some reason we are expected to accept this as normal, but not the other? That's bullshit and you know it.
>>43937849
What the fuck am I reading? How the fuck does a short fiction vignette with a male protagonist exclude women? How does reading 'he' exclude women? I've seen plenty of tabletops reference, equally, men and women with he and she.
How the fuck does it exclude -anyone- who wants to pick up the hobby? Having a nebulous they works if you're trying to keep the gender ambiguous for certain vignettes or themes in the work, but i really fucking doubt just using 'he' occasionally or 'she' in explaining the rules in setting isn't going to exclude anybody.
They're fucking rules. Who reads the rules, see's one 'he' and goes 'this is obviously not for me and is excluding women!'? What kind of fucking logic is this shit? If you're turned away by the mere presence of pronouns of any sort, I'm sorry but you weren't interested in the hobby in the first place.
If this were video games? Maybe. But this is fucking tabletop and wargaming.
>>43937921
>I'm a woman
Haha well memed friend
>>43937931
Man, BID is awesome.
Repeating flaws in our brain shows exploitable loop holes.
>>43937931
Aren't suicide rates higher among post-op transexuals?
Please correct me if I am wrong, I don't want to be misinformed.
>>43937957
>Dismissing my gender because my opinions don't conform to your preconceptions of what opinions a woman "should" have
What a shitlord :^)
>>43937760
I think she's saying that any time she reveals herself to be a girl, she gets comments saying that girls can't play video games or some such. It's not a matter of discussing opinions, it's a matter of being treated with far more skepticism and hostility than a guy would be.
>>43938038
Some like to imagine what will make them happy.
Grass is always greener until you get there...
>>43938090
>Hostility
Literally never seen it outside of SJW parodies of gamer culture.
If "asking what your favorite character is" is taken as some kind of hostile shittest to see if you're a "real gamer," then that strikes me as overly sensitive behavior.
>>43938038
Nope, they're lower post-op, what you're likely thinking of is a study that compares post-op to the general population. The post-op suicide rate is still higher than the general population, so people often misinterpret it as saying that the operation does more harm than good.
>>43938043
Best way to prove your gender would be "Tits or GTFO" everyone is a boy on the internet until proven otherwise anon
>>43938153
Nice anecdotal evidence you got there. Real solid stuff. And you misunderstood my point, which has nothing to do with questions of any sort.
>>43938038
I do believe it is.
Even higher than BID sufferers who succeeded in amputation attempts if I recall. Don't cite me on that though, I'm not 100% sure.
Either way, post op trannies often claim to be happy in studies, but statistics seem to claim otherwise. Even with surgery they are still the same gender, they only made themselves sterile and mutilated. At least BID sufferers just want to get rid of something instead of having delusions that it should be something else, like wanting your arm to be a giant crab claw. It's just not gonna happen.
>>43938218
>Either way, post op trannies often claim to be happy in studies, but statistics seem to claim otherwise.
I'd like to see some of these statistics.
>>43938214
>Nice anecdotal evidence you got there.
And what do you call "Anytime she reveals herself to be a girl, she gets comments saying that girls can't play video games or somesuch" you impossibly thick fucktard?
>>43937949
>>43937921
see
>>43937914
The text of the card makes an assumption about the player, namely that she is a man. How many other assumptions did the creators make? Is the gameplay and story designed for boys (lots of violence and cool explosions) or does it work for both genders? Do the other players assume they will be playing boys, or is it just the creators? Am I invading their personal space that they hoped would be girl-free? Am I welcome? Will there be girl's toilets?
By specifically not making an assumption about the gender of a player, the game makers are being 100% clear: the game is designed for both girls and boys. Yes, liking magic doesn't make you a tomboy. Yes, we like to see new players regardless of their gender. Yes, there will be women's restrooms. And here's an open game for you - jump in!
>>43938210
2007 called, they want their dank memes back, shitlord.
>>43938163
No, they're higher, however its muddy because that might be due to discrimination against them more than their own self-satisfaction.
>>43938297
Ok bro let me know when your uncle at nintendo calls
>>43934629
I'm not sure I see your point. Are anecdotes considered evidence here? I'm not saying that you've implied that the depth of experience implied by "literally EVERY time" (caps for emphasis duely noted) is admissible as evidence that all women are incapable of enjoying games the way men do...
but if you aren't trying to imply something so fucking stupid, then what was the point of your post?
>>43938261
I call it my interpretation of her argument, which you clearly don't seem to understand since you've missed her point twice. The point is, she feels she gets harassed just for being a girl sometimes when she plays video games. You can doubt her on that, that's fine. But if you bring up some shit about answering questions again, you will officially be king of the retards.
>>43938333
>The point is, she feels she gets harassed just for being a girl sometimes when she plays video games
Which is anecdotal. And therefore just as dismissable as my experience apparently is.
Welcome to my point, boyo.
>>43938310
>No, they're higher
Source?
>>43938277
It's the fucking rules. Nobody is going to read 'he' or 'she' in the rules and immediately make the connection of 'this is for boys.' Literally no one ever has seen the word 'she' in a tabletop game, assumed it was for women, and fucked off -- same for the opposite.
It does not state anything about assuming, a lot of it is for ease of persusal. When referring to actions the player can take, the rules take on a gendered pronoun because they presume you want to know how it'll affect a character -- who may be male or may be female, and give examples of such.
It doesn't exclude anyone unless you're an actual, literal retard that decides to not go into a hobby because someone once, at some point, said 'he' in describing the rules or setting of the play.
>>43933136
>We all know that most /tg/ hobbies are, IN GENERAL, unfriendly towards women.
This is unsourced.
>but my playgroup
>women don't deserve to play because
>muh 38%
Why are you strawmanning a group that hasn't spoken yet?
>Let's avoid anecdotal evidence and complaints about "totally fake statistics".
Okay.
>The fact is that, while you and your group may be perfectly civil towards women, the hobbies as a whole are not
Unsubstantiated claim.
>And, no, women aren't just looking to control/dominate/be fawned over by gamers
Irrelevant, given that your prior claim is baseless.
>they're actually interested in playing the damn games.
That isn't what the data says. The data says that the niche hobby is even more niche among women.
>So one woman wasn't? I can point to lots of men who aren't, either.
I'm sure you can, but we don't make threads claiming that men who aren't interested in playing games are being discriminated against by the hobby.
>So, the question is...why? Game companies are going out of their way to make women feel welcome, game stores don't have "No girls allowed" signs, and I can't think of any reason that the subject matter would innately lead to misogyny. Why, then, is it considered somewhat groundbreaking--to the extent that people have called the numbers fake--that a little over a third of a game's playerbase belongs to the gender that makes up a full half of the species?
>Is it really just that we're all actually that autistic?
Given what you've just said, the most probable conclusion is that women simply aren't as interested in tabletop gaming as men are. I don't know why you consider the notion that men and women differ on how they enjoy to spend their time as a group to be somehow offensive. Maybe the act of gluing together models and rolling dice to make them kill each other just isn't as interesting to women as it is to men.
Not every demographic trend is the result of discrimination, you retard.
>>43938351
No, your point was a bunch of shit about "Well why shouldn't she answer questions." >>43938153
>>43937760
Don't try and hide your awful argument. If you want to doubt her evidence, take it up with her, I was just trying to help you understand her argument, since you're clearly incapable of doing so by yourself.
>>43933136
>Is it really just that we're all actually that autistic?
Well, I went to a weekly university gaming club for four years. In that time, I'd say there were maybe ten, at the most, girls who showed up more than a couple of weeks. There might well have been more than that, I didn't know everyone, but 10 girls to about 30 guys is probably pretty accurate.
Also in that time, I saw four different girls show up and be treated very creepily by guys at the club, two guys in particular, who made them visible uncomfortable with awkward flirting, weird "sexual" advances, off color remarks, attempts at forced hugging from one of the guys, and weirdly misogynistic, often violent comments, from the other.
I knew two other girls who, after the hugging guy weirded out one of them, never showed up again, but kept playing with some other guys I knew outside the club.
And there were three over the years who I became good friends and eventually left the club to join the game I ran at my house. Two of those girls left specifically because of the creepy hugging guy.
So, yeah. In my experience, limited though it may be, it is because we, or at least a visible minority among us, truly are that autistic.
Sad thing is, some of those girls were better roleplayers than any of the male players I met. And none of them smelled bad.
>>43933136
Simple economics. When comparing the population and your market, realizing that half of the population is basically not taking part in the hobby and consuming your products, it seems profitable to try to cater to them, nevermind the reasons. Gendering and "inclusivity" in hobbies are sold as an equality issue, when in truth greed is the sole motivator for change.
>>43938399
Move them goalposts Mr. White-Knight's-himself.
And I'm a different anon, so fuck you.
>>43938399
Different person, retard.
This entire "argument" boils down to you believe a woman who says she's being "omg so harrassed :CC," but you don't believe someone who states that gamers treat women as their fellow gamers, IE not with kids gloves or sycophancy. Apparently one can be dismissed as "anecdotal," but you're a lot more willing to swallow the other load.
>>43938372
People are dumb. A few first impressions ("read this really cool card!") can make or break a player's opinion of the game ("this game is designed for boys"). Take this except from the rules of the My Little Pony trading card game:
>Mary decides to play two cards this turn:
>The first is a Troublemaker card; for 1 action token, Mary places it face-down at the It’s Alive! Problem.
>The second is a Friend card; also for 1 action token, Mary places Noteworthy, Humdinger to the Cloudbursting Problem.
In comparison to magic, this game seeps girlyness. She is making actions to create Friendship and Trouble. The player is a girl. She makes moves. This is probably how girls see magic. (Remember that MTG is full of creatures attacking and killing the other player). I'd never play this fucking game because it sounds fucking gay as shit. I've essentially just been excluded from a game because of the setting and gender of the player referenced by the rules.
>>43938466
I loathe when economists are actually right about the heart of the issue.
>>43934707
You put an end to it like a damp squid.
>>43938419
That's why we need to kick those types of people out of the hobby not for women inclusivity but because those people are a smelly cancer
