>D&D
>player wants to play Orc
>not Half-Orc
>wants to be good aligned
>in D&D
Why do players do this every time?
>>43925678
>Why do players do this every time?
Same reason they want to play non-evil Drow.
Because they understand the alignment system is shit and should be ignored entirely?
Because racial morality a shit
>>43925678
Wants to play a character, not a race
>MUH PLAYERS ARE BAD
ask someone else to DM
>>43925678
Because of Warcraft.
>>43925678
Also, because not everyone wants to play a rape-baby. But honestly, yeah, I think you shouldn't be able to play a race that's usually antagonistic or mostly evil.
It's gonna be quite awkward when you're in a dungeon and fighting orcs, and your guy is an orc too. Or when someone casts a spell that kills all orcs, then he turns around and goes "...Ohhhhh shit. Sorry, Bob."
Because they're completely incapable of creating an interesting character beyond "I'm playing this race, but with all the usual fantasy tropes reversed".
>>43925725
>quite awkward when you're in a dungeon and fighting orcs, and your guy is an orc too
Do you have this problem when you're fighting bandits or pirates of PC races?
>>43925800
Not really, because bandits and pirates are humans who are messed-up, you know? Abnormal. But your 'normal' orc is a raping, killing machine, so it feels weird when you're fighting alongside one against the mainstays of his race.
>>43925701
Aye. Except for Demons/Devils/Yugoloths/Other always-evil extraplanars. For them, it makes sense, because they're physical embodiments of that sort of thing.
Any mortal races should be able to be whatever alignment they choose, I reckon, unless they're constantly under powerful influence of an evil god, like the drow are with Lolth. The first step for an orc to become non-evil is to abandon Bane/Gruumsh, and free themselves of said deity's influence.
>>43925820
This is what can happen if you don't mostly ignore the alignment system, you end up saying retarded things like this.
D&D can't write a coherent society without doing backflips on its own alignment rules. 4e made it simpler, and 5e mellowed how extreme alignments are; but anything before 4e is pants on head retarded.
>>43925863
Agreed. It's perfectly fine if say orcs are generally violent and barbaric though.
>>43925879
You ckearky don't know your D&D history, anon. In earlier editions, good and evil "alignments" were restricted to purely good/evil beings, like angels and devils. Your typical, run-of-the-mill human murderer? Not evil. He may commit evil acts, but he's not "aligned" with the force of evil thevway a devil is. Hell, pre-AD&D didn't even have good and evil, only law and chaos, the forces of which fought for control of the universe.
>>43925863
>The first step for an orc to become non-evil is to abandon Bane/Gruumsh
You can worship Gruumsh and be non-evil. You can easily worship him as a Strength/War god.
>>43925920
It's not a matter of simply worshippong the deity, though. Hell, most drow probably don't actually worship Lolth unless they have to to survive, but the fact is, they have been transformed by her power, and are constantly under her influence. Same goes for orcs with Gruumsh (or Bane). They don't just worship him, they're perpetually influenced by his power, and the first step to escaping his influence is to stop worshipping him, and separate yourself from orc society.
>>43925874
I did read it, and all I got out of it is that you're a shit roleplayer who can't come up with a character more interesting than "an orc, but GOOD".
Reversals on typical fantsy tropes are even more boring, overdone, and devoid of creativity than just playing the race straight.
>>43925919
>pre-AD&D didn't even have good and evil, only law and chaos,
Except Basic and OD&D Law is LG, and Chaos is CE.
>>43925959
>>43925710 isn't me, son, just another anon with sensible opinions.
>>43925959
Depends on how he plays it though doesnt it? He could be rough and violent but still a good guy overall.
>>43925974
Not true. Demons were always chaotic, but so were high elves.
>>43925974
Not true. Demons were always chaotic, but then so were high elves.
>having orcs in any game ever
Let them stay in Lotr, too many people try to turn orcs into a metaphor.
>>43925863
Alignment is also restricted by the circumstances you're living in. If the land you live on is shit and the only way to survive is to raid and plunder other people's shit, you're not going to be able to be good, though you may call yourself good or think of yourself as good. It's easy to be a saint in paradise.
Because people who don't want to be human are basically broken inside and don't understand the idea of stopping before things get stupid. Let them play an elf and they want to play a half-orc. Let them play a half-orc and they want to play a full orc. Allow that and they will want to play a catgirl. Allow that and they will want to play a unique half-dragon catgirl hemaphrodite.
People who want to play this shit don't do it because there is a fixed goal they are heading towards; it's because there is something that they are trying to get away from and that is the concept of being a decent, normal human being. They will push and push until your game is a bunch of autistic tumblrkin jerking off about their furry hybrid characters.
That's why you should ban anyone who wants to play an elf right from the start.
>>43926055
>land you live on is shit and the only way to survive is to raid and plunder
Don't raid and plunder, pretty easy to not be an evil dick.
>>43925997
>>43926012
OD&D: Elves L
Holmes Basic uses both axes
Moldvay, Mentzer, and RC all say Law generally = Good, Chaos generally = Evil.
>>43925678
D&D is not a setting
>>43925693
/thread
>>43925863
Exact. But mortal races being born evil is plain stupid.
Clearly we need to reinvent the alignment system as a 3 axis thing.
one for individualistic/communal thinking, one for altruism/egoism and one for familliarity/foreigness.
>>43925678
I once played the "typical" Evil-aligned aggressive barbarian Orc in a mostly good aligned party. I can't be arsed to go into expicit details about his background, but the short of it was that my character's tribe owed fealty to a human empire, and he was sent to serve in their army as the empire was getting ready to invade a neighbouring nation.
The player characters were all part of a scouting party that was supposed to infiltrate enemy territory. Things got derailed when the officer leading the expedition turned out to be a halfling and my characters simply refused to take orders from him. None of other PCs tried to stop the Orc when he challenged the wimpy officer to a duel, and soon halfling brains was splattered all over the Orc's mighty hands.
Then the Orc took leadership over the troop and started doing what Orcs do best: Raid and Pillage the countryside. Game fell apart soon after that.
>>43926132
>Exact. But mortal races being born evil is plain stupid.
What about those constantly influenced by their god like Drow (Lolth) and Orcs (Gruumsh)? There's certainly a curse over both those races.
>>43926100
>D&D is not a setting
It sort of is if you accept planescape as the default in the manuals, or forgotten realms or greyhawk or points of light, or whatever your favorite edition goes by in the core rules.
Lots of people play pre-mades in other authors' settings.
>>43926077
Something something mercy is the privilege of the strong.
>>43926204
There is a difference between being cursed and being created out of evil energy on the plain of evil. They are still likely to be dicks though.
>>43926224
Bitch you crazy, if you survive solely on rading and plundering you are strong enough to have mercy.
>>43925678
>wants to be good aligned
>in D&D
Not seeing the problem here OP
>>43925678
Because races are not bound to an alignment and everyone is actually lawful neutral according to their own culture
>>43926204
>Lots of people do it this way
That doesn't make it the only way. Honestly, I prefer settings that break the boring fucking standards that D&D set ages ago. And no, D&D is a ruleset. The different settings are not exclusive to the ruleset, and the ruleset is not exclusive to the settings. That makes them different things, anon.
>>43925996
Of course it does. There's nothing inherently wrong with wanting to play a good aligned orc. But when someone makes a idiotic sweeping statement like "if you don't like muh good orc you're a shit dm" I'm not exactly inclined to respond with a well-reasoned, nuanced argument.
>>43926293
Except you are the only one who said that.
>>43926055
>It's easy to be a saint in paradise.
This is a fantastic quote. I just looked up what it's from, and, while I may forget that, I'll definitely remember the quote.
>>43926339
It was implied here:
>>43925710
>>43926077
>Don't raid and plunder
>Starve because the land you live on is shit
>Die
Hey, you're right, that sounds great.
>>43926077
Pretty easy to just let yourself starve?
>>43926238
There's a difference between being able to win a fight and being able to build a perfectly self-sustaining society where you never have to take anything from anyone else. You could have one ability but not the other.
>>43926243
See, this is what happens when orcs try to be good. 95% of them get enslaved or wiped out because good doesn't work for people in their circumstances.
>>43926374
>>43926400
You could always try moving. Or raising something to eat that survives on your land. I mean goats live fucking anywhere, heard them.
>>43926372
While I can see how someone could interpret it that way, I don't think that's what that anon meant by it. I think they meant that, if you're going to make a character, it should be more complex than a simple archetype of a fantasy race. Like anon said, You're playing a character, not playing a race.
>>43925863
Technically the evil outsiders thing is only really true in vanilla D&D. Demons in most mythologies are not made of pure evil. Even in Christianity, demons are just celestial beings that have had an alignment change.
>>43926413
The idea was, if you try to move, there will already be other people living in almost all of the areas you try to move to.
>>43926442
Then raise goats or something. God damn, people can live fucking anywhere and orcs are tougher than people. They could always find some village that will feed big strong fighters to keep monsters away from their homes.
>>43926419
In D&D that would be devils. Most devils were once angels, who are also beings of planar energy. Changing location/allegiance merely changes the nature of that energy.
Demons, on the other hand, are literally the Abyss (swirling primordial evil at the bottom of the Elemental Chaos) given shape.
>>43925678
I don't see anything wrong with it and honestly half-orcs should have never been a thing anyway. It was just a lousy compromise since G-man hated the idea of not murder rape killer Orcs being adventurers.
>>43926469
Alright, fair. But there's still the influence of Gruumsh problem. In LotR, orcs were former elves corrupted by Morgoth. In D&D, they're basically just big goblins. (No, not hobgoblins. Hobgoblins are smarter than both.)
>>43926501
>In D&D, they're basically just big goblins.
I thought those were Bug Bears.
My reaction depends on the system, honestly.
>4e
okay, cool, they have a race write up in one of the monster manuals. You get racial power X.
>AD&D
Sure! I can't wait to hear your back story!
>3.PF
Hmm. Okay, listen, by the standards of the game, the orc race is underpowered, how about we work with the advanced race guide and your back story to bring him up to par with the other races.
>5e
Lemmie check the monster manual... Okay, we're good! Do the rest of character generation as normal.
>>43925820
Imagine being a US Marine in Afghanistan, and your squad mate is named Akbar.
Now, are you going to turn down the aid of a fellow marine? A jarhead in arms? A man who has seen the exact same shit as you have?
No. He's your battle buddy. He's the man in your crew support. He's a marine first, a soldier second, and your drinking buddy third.
>>43925687
What has Drizzt to do with Orcs?
>>43926684
I made alt PF Orc stats
>+2 Str,+2 Con, -2 Int, Cha, OR Wis. Darkvision 60 feet, Ferocity, and Orc Weapon Familiarity.
>>43926070
Care to support your revelations with facts? Because currently you sound incredibly stupid and narrow minded.
>>43926501
Gruumsh does not exist in all settings, nor does he constantly influence orcs to be evil in all settings in which he exists.
>>43926818
That's pretty clearly and obviously trolling anon. Get that bait out your mouth.
>>43926712
Hes still probably thinking "man I wish we were shooting gooks instead"
>>43926469
Why should they be shitty goatherds or menial servants? People with nice things just because of where they were born shouldn't get to keep them if they can't hold on to them.
>They could always find some village that will feed big strong fighters to keep monsters away from their homes.
Except that the monsters they want to keep away ARE the orcs. Both the villagers and the orcs would see that as just paying tribute to the orcs to keep them from sacking the village.
>>43926070
Projecting much? No seriously where the fuck did you come up with this?
>>43926986
>Why should they be shitty goatherds or menial servants?
Why should they kill people and take their shit? People got nice things in the first place through hard work and effort they didn't just land on their front yard.
And If you got a forest full of fucking dire animals or a bog full of undead near your village I doubt you will look too closely at the dental situation of the guys offering to beat the shit out of them for some grub.
>>43926469
>Then raise goats or something.
What if the only lands that don't have people living on it can't even support goats?
>They could always find some village that will feed big strong fighters to keep monsters away from their homes.
What if the village doesn't have enough food to spare?
>>43927058
>hard work
Lol, right. Because Western fantasy feudal systems are totally all about meritocracy. You can work your ass off and it won't matter at all, especially if you don't own the land you work on.
And if we're valuing people by how hard they work, why is it wrong to work hard to kill a bunch of people who aren't working hard enough to defend themselves?
>>43926172
Nice spell tho.
>>43927148
Then relocate to a forest or something and clear somewhere for you to live. Even today there are places that nobody live that can support life. And holy fuck where do you live that goats cant survive? They live on the side of mountains.
>>43927158
You see that big fancy city with its walls and its pretty shops? That was a patch of dirt just like yours once. Then some son of a bitch got a bunch of lads together and built something. And hard work does not equal the ability to defend yourself.
>>43927338
You must think surviving is easy, just find a place, build some houses, find some wild animal to herd and live happily ever after right?
>>43927338
What, so paying someone else to do work for you on land you own because your daddy did counts as doing work yourself, but fighting doesn't? Are you going to tell soldiers that what they do isn't work? Maybe you should stop paying them tribute and see what happens.
>>43927433
You can work hard without being good a fighting you numpty. A farmer in a field works himself to death but if a soldier rolls up for a fight he will get wrecked. No one is saying fighting isnt also hard work.
>>43927383
I mean its only what every civilization in the entire world has done. Some people crossed continents and seas to find some place I'm sure dead hard orcs could manage the same.
>>43926413
In most D&D settings every bit of land that isn't being actively maintained and patrolled by a civilized race or some powerful entity is elbows deep in rape monsters or cursed and completely unlivable to even goats.
>>43927520
And some people saw some land they liked and killed everyone who was already there so they could have it instead. You can't say orcs don't follow the traditions of civilization.
>>43927594
If they did that they wouldn't be stuck on shitty land and thus not need to raid and pillage people to survive.
>>43927520
That's like building a house without a roof because you don't know how to do roofs, then complaining when you get rained on. It doesn't matter how hard you worked on the walls. Different jobs need different kinds of work, and they all need to be defended harder than the people working hard to steal them or else they're forfeit.
>all these people actually defending raiders
>>43926374
Mongols didn't exclusively raid.
What's the Orc's excuse?
>>43927647
Where did I ever say otherwise? All I ever said is that other people worked to get what they have and despite their effort they might not be as good at fighting as others.
>>43927635
They'd also have written language, art, and wouldn't follow dragons and demons.
>>43927718
Gruumsh
Gruumsh demands that they raid, pillage and raid some more
Everything is shit for orcs because Gruumsh is a dick
>>43925820
Implying that the "normal" human is not a raping killing machine...
>>43927718
They have a god screaming in their ear to rape elves and kill dwarves. Also, low intelligence and constantly being pushed off of arable land because it happened to be occupied.
You can only apply so many real-world examples to orc civilization though. They pretty much break logic with how fast they reproduce coupled with how large of an army they can maintain on hunter-gathering in the mountains alone.
>>43925678
Good orcs have been canon since Forgotten Realms was published.
Though TSR hated that so much, that a mandate from above forced the next monster expansion to include a new race of orc-like beings who were naturally good guys.
FR writings on the matter still refer to good orcs however, and that mandated race never received updates.
So are we saying orcs raid because they have to or are all raiders ever evil?
>>43927854
>god screaming in their ear to rape elves and kill dwarves
It's actually murder elves and dwarves, and rape any female, since 5e lore took back the racial feature that humans stole in 3e.
>>43927869
We are saying you always have a choice in what you do but some choices are shittier than others.
>>43927148
>Land
>Cannot support Goats.
Anon confirmed for city slicker.
>>43927885
Wait: half-dwarf half orcs are valid now?
>>43930238
Theoretically.
In pre-3e D&D and 5e, orcs can breed with any humanoid race and produce offspring.
The majority of the time the offspring is pure orc, but exceptions exist.
