The Chaos Gods are boring antagonists.
I agree. Granted, there are in-universe explanations for why they always exhibit the negative aspects of their emotional purviews and never the positive ones but it does sap a lot of nuance from them as characters.
...
/thread
>>43910285
>he threads himself
>>43907877
Agree, let's have them be the protagonists.
>>43907877
Their servants are what make them interesting.
>>43910356
There is LITERALLY nothing wrong with tzeentch
>>43910457
He's an egotistical dick
they are one dimensional and simple because they need to be. It makes them pure in their personification of sins and vices. And why no positive aspects? Tell how much of those positive emotion emanates from WH population? The Imperium itself boosts Khorne to strathosperic levels of power.
>>43910457
>>43910463
Also he's manipulative bastard. Offering gifts and power to change your fate (hope some call it) but on the other hand he seals your fate to his own goals.
>>43910483
>>43910463
>tfw that's me
>>43910515
Maybe you shouldchangethat
>>43910437
This.
How do you go from fighting against a totalitarian state to wearing baby skulls as a necklace? That's the interesting story.
>>43910586;^)no
>>43907877
They aren't antagonists at all. They power antagonists, but that's something else.
>>43910457
>not enjoying life
>>43907877
Why have they forgotten that they have positive aspects in addition to their negative ones?
>>43907877
So are the Tyranids.
Luckily for us we have the Necrons but they don't get much love and stuff from GW.
>>43910636
The baby skulls give you more power due to the fact the Gods are smiling upon you.
The best thing to do is wear a baby skull codpiece.
They're written in a mediocre fashion, but at their core, I really dig the concepts. Chaos seems to be all about change, while the Imperium of Man, and almost everyone else for that matter, is about keeping things the way they are exactly because they fear change. It's a neat way - in my opinion - to do something other than the good/evil dynamic, I just wish they'd do it properly
>>43911058
Eh, nids are a force of nature, that's pretty much it. Alternatively, some kind of blatantly obvious mockery of the way that the Emperor and humanity began gobbling up planets left and right before shit hit the fan
>>43911039
Positive aspects?
>>43912392
Khorne brings ambition, Tzeentch brings change (for good or worse), Slaanesh brings desire which can lead to conquest, and Nurgle I can't remember. Something about stability?
>>43912392
Tzeentch is hope, Khorne is bravery, Slaanesh is love, Nurgle is rebirth or something
>>43912477
"While Nurgle is the God of death and decay, he is also the God of rebirth. After all, decay is simply one part of the cycle of life, without which no new life could grow. In the same way, Nurgle is also the God of perseverance and survival" He is also very "jolly" and seems to actually like/love his followers.
>>43912951
Well yeah, to Nurgle, just existing is praise to him! No matter what you do, you'll eventually rot, and be reborn! Who wouldn't be jolly about that?
>>43911058
>Necrons are bad
I hate this meme
Kinda off-topic.
But does anyone have that video of this crazy maze with floating people and then stuff get's really weird with tentacles and flies everywhere? I'm looking for it and for some reason people on /tg/ or in warhammer threads always have the video because it represents the warp or like a nurgle/tzeench world.
Y'all motherfuckers need Grace
>>43910636
The problem is that GW writers tend to skip the interesting part of their story: the fall. Or, worse and even more boring, they're dicks from the start and just become bigger dicks when they jump over to Chaos (Huron Blackheart, for instance).
The fall of a paragon is a classic and fun tale, but GW seems to skip over that, aside from the Horus Heresy (and even then, about half of the Traitor Primarchs were dicks from the start).
There should be more chaos gods, or sub-factions within the gods armies
>>43911065
>Best thing
But Khorne doesn't care where the blood flows from. Even if he did, why would he approve more of you killing something weak rather than something strong?
>>43914242
Having some examples for Minor Chaos Gods or Daemon Princes who have their own little sub-group would be nice. Just another option outside of the big four.
>>43914242
>>43914338
Yeah, there are supposed to be lesser entities in the Warp, and I was planning to fluff one up myself for my own CSM warband, but it would help if they at least got a LITTLE attention to show that they exist aside from a one-off mention in a sentence.
>>43914411
The only one I can remember is the Chaos entity of Fear that Raptors worship, although I don't think there's much info on him.
I always assumed he had a Bird/Reptile motif and his preferred color was Orange, although that's just more speculation based on the default look of Raptors.
>>43914460
you'd think a god of fear would be pretty strong in the 40k universe.
>>43912477
>>43912585
Get out, heretics.
>>43914500
Considering how much everyone scoffs at the Fear rule because of how useless it is against most things, I kind of doubt it
>>43914500
I think its because most of the minor Chaos gods still technically fall under the big 4 in some way. Like Fear might correlate to Nurgle's despair or Slaanesh's excess.
>>43914500
They're all gods of fear in a while, or fear is an aspect of them. They force you into their service because you're fearful of them. That doesn't work. Khorne corrupts you with the fear of the person you hate the most will kill you one day. Nurgle corrupts you with the fear of death and decay. Slaanesh takes your soul with your fear of imperfection. Tzeentch corrupts you with the fear of change or that your ambition will fail.
>>43907877
If you ignore everything that surrounds them sure.
Like, if you ignore their realms in the warp, the actual climate in the warp itself, their followers and disputes, the realspace that is occupied by Chaos, their real world followers, the strange worlds and societies that can exist so freely with Chaos, oh and their worshipers.
>>43913633
THE GELLAR FIELDS ARE MALFUNCTIONING
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UPUhn9hpTU
I CAN SEE THEM, THEY COME
>>43914627
The problem is Chaos is most commonly depicted as a bunch of spiky things yelling and banging their head against a wall.
Maybe if the faction made 100% by emotion could show some personality it'd go over better.
>>43914627
Yes! Thank you so much for that video.
>>43914543
I disagree.
Subjects of the Imperium live in perpetual fear -fear of being labeled a heretic. Of knowing a heretic. Of living on a _planet_ accused of heresy.
Fascism is great for fear because key is that the subject never really knows the rules. Thoughtcrime like Heresy is 100% part of that package.
Is not praying hard enough at church heretical? Yes, yes it is. Good luck proving you weren't being heretical, HERETIC. "Innocence proves nothing" and all that.
Heresy is an intangible crime; that's why Imperetards love screaming it when they cum. You don't need "proof," you just need to enact retribution -"the Emperor judges, but He only judges the dead." Killed the wrong person? At worst you sent them to an eternity in bliss at the Emperor's side. At best they were actually guilty of something else.
That's the fun part of the "rape the xenos" memes. The Rape isn't heresy, not killing the victim afterwards is. So take that stuck up Eldar cunt, defile her with your "inferior body," and slice her wiiiiiide open in the name of the Emperor afterwards. And get promoted for zealotry -with clusters if you burned her kids.
The Eldar fear Slaanesh. While they try to be aloof they know just fucking up a little means spending forever being drowned in battery acid by a daemon that's wearing your father's face as he screams at you for being a disappointment to the family.
The Tau have no unusual fears, but don't really contribute anything in soul power.
The Orks have no real fear at all, but are claimed by Gork and Mork.
No idea about Necrons.
Sure on TT higher L and whatever is common, but the bulk of souls for noms are found in very mortal creatures that are never far from very mortal terror in a universe where the worse possible outcome could happen at any time. That's the Grim half to the Dark.
Everything bad can happen, is happening, and nobody can do more than delay it by sacrificing someone else.
>>43914912
Chill dude. It was a Joke.
>>43914693
That's only because people don't know how to express emotional extremes to the degree that Chaos servants do, because they more likely than not don't know how to think that way, so they will usually go pants-on-head retard and overdo the craziness or make the fact that they're Chaos servants just background info.
The funny thing about crazy people is that they're usually much more sane than you think.
Source: Work with legit crazy people.
>>43914693
Problem is that it's not about emotional balance.
Khorne could be noble heroism and outstanding courage, but what's more common in 40k between honest guts and rampant slaughter? That's the only real question: what is there more of?
Proto-Daemon Prince Kyras had it right in wanting to make Aurelia into a single titanic sacrifice to Khorne. He knew that all that was required was rage and violence and he could have sponsored a decade's long titanic tournament of arms that gathered epic warriors from across the galaxy.
Or he could start a gigantic fuck-off war, invite everybody, set it in as many inhabited places as he could, and blow the whole thing up.
Quantity > Quality.
Nurgle could claim rebirth, but rebirth happens once. People can spend _decades_ worrying and despairing like miserable mortal batteries with the value-added benefit of possibly dying in a plague as well.
And so what if Nurgle "loves" his followers? Nothing he does manifests a different conclusion then the other 3 -more gifts, more need to sacrifice for power, ultimate self-immolation, possible daemon hood.
>>43914986
If only humor wasn't so subjective...
Wait, there is a Laughing God.
And he's the fucking Joker.
So Grimdark.
>>43915010
Honesty people just need to see the reason behind Chaos but a lot of people don't, it's not that Chaos is inherently crazy it's just after seeing the warp people's notions of sanity are usually broken and they see the world very differently.
>that crotch
I DON'T THINK SHE FELL FOR TZEENCH
>>43915010
Is the "sane crazy" still hard to manage compared to "normal"?
Because as someone diagnosed and medicated as "crazy" I promise you wanting to murder motherfuckers over utter trivia is both personally understandable as psychologically aberrant and an entirely valid-feeling response to whatever latest slight.
I know I'm crazy, but god is it good to have the pills to put that all in check. If feeding my hate with actual power were an option I'd be a long time dead.
>>43915180
>wanting to murder motherfuckers over utter trivia is both personally understandable as psychologically aberrant and an entirely valid-feeling response to whatever latest slight.
There is nothing crazy about this. People really are too stupid to live with some of the shit they get wrong.
>>43907877
they are less antagonist and more ideas. Each of them have personalities yes, but so does the Emperor and we don't see him in any stories. Gods are not interesting because they are very linear. It is kinda like if all there was to you was that you are a gamer. Yes there is a lot to gaming, but it is only one topic that people will grow board of. That is why the God's champions are more interesting because there is a lot to them. The Gods are just stand ins for nature. Is a hurricane an interesting antagonist? no, but i man vs nature story line is interesting because you see how a normal man reacts to the hurricane.
>>43915515
I'd agree, but in my case "triggers" can be shit like internet arguments about 40k lore. Really.
I generally stay away from /tg/ for predictably associated reasons. I like the general fan community, but about the time the trollercoaster starts to fill up I need to be someplace else.
Life is plenty unfair; neurochemically exaggerated nerdrage is really no excuse to hurt someone.
Anyway...solipsism, lol.
>>43913579
I just read pretty much every wiki entry on them and they're way more interesting than I gave them credit for.
I always had them figured for mindless death robots but it's way more complex apparently.
>>43915088
Which just results in the same template of people yelling blood for the blood god and being completely bland and interchangeable.
>>43915767
Necrons are cool as fuck and that's why I painted an army of them.
I wish they had more color schemes, all I'm basically doing is picking the head color and a tube color.
>>43914912
>Heresy is an intangible crime; that's why Imperetards love screaming it when they cum. You don't need "proof," you just need to enact retribution -"the Emperor judges, but He only judges the dead." Killed the wrong person? At worst you sent them to an eternity in bliss at the Emperor's side. At best they were actually guilty of something else.
Toth thought Gab was the corrupted one but did he kill him on the spot? No. He wanted to see if Gab was corrupted which he should know if he really was possessed by a daemon which is theorized. The Inquisitor in Retribution didn't automatically assume the entire chapter of Blood Ravens was corrupted just because Kyras was. Also the Imperium is full of diversity. There are some standard guidelines on what is heresy in the many sects across the galaxy but one priest will disagree with another priest on what is heretical if they're from different sects.
>That's the fun part of the "rape the xenos" memes. The Rape isn't heresy, not killing the victim afterwards is. So take that stuck up Eldar cunt, defile her with your "inferior body," and slice her wiiiiiide open in the name of the Emperor afterwards. And get promoted for zealotry -with clusters if you burned her kids.
Sex with xenos is heresy. Commissar might shoot you for having sex with the xeno and being a rapist because someone he cared about was raped and caused him to hate rapists. Also sounds like a guro hentai with Slaaneshis involved or a teenage Dark Eldar with a human fetish writing fapfiction about herself.
>Heresy is an intangible crime; that's why Imperetards love screaming it when they cum
We do not. We scream "for the Emperor".
>>43911058
how are daemons fighting soulless beings?
>>43915767
They used to be mindless death robots, but that was changed. Now they actually have the capability and a variety of motivations beyond killing things for no reason, but are still capable of that if the player so chooses.
>>43916016
With swords, claws, and massive aces, evidently.
A lot of people that hate the imperium seem to miss the fact that all of their tyranny is essentially a necessary evil.
They're brutal and unfair to psykers, but if they weren't Daemons would possess them and it would be worse for everyone.
They're brutal and unfair to xenos, but if they weren't the xenos would be the ones doing the exterminating.
They're brutal and unfair to their own subjects (sometimes, there's a lot of diversity in the Imperium), but if they weren't the whole thing would fall apart and human worlds would fall to any number of worse forces than the Imperium.
In a universe filled with things like Chaos, Tyrannids, Necrons, and innumerable other utterly genocidal and destructive forces, pretty much any evil is justifiable to preserve humanity.
To think modern concepts like democracy and universal rights can be applied to such a brutal reality is incredibly naive. The fact that today's societies can embrace such concepts is essentially a luxury.
Desperate times call for desperate measures.
>>43916510
The Interex were doing just fine without any of that, and they didn't even have a god-tier psyker leading them.
The Imperium is only a necessary evil now because they screwed up every option that could make things better.
>>43916892
>The Interex were doing just fine without any of that
They had no pyskers. The Daemon Man didn't care for them. they knew that Chaos existed but didn't know the Gods existed. If anything they've only seen a daemon or two and didn't think there was more if them. As for the xeno thing they got lucky.
>>43916959
>They had no psykers
>didn't know gods existed
>they've only seen a aemon of two
Source on that? I don't doubt it, but there isn't that much detail on them. They had quite a few worlds under their belts, so there were surely at least a few Psykers born there.
Either way, that doesn't change the fact that the Imperium is the result of everything going wrong.
>>43916892
>>43916959
>>43917094
If the Interex were so great, why don't they exist anymore?
Survival of the fittest, it's a tough universe.
The Imperium is demostrably the only workable human government at the moment in the 40k universe simply by virtue of the fact that everything else fell, and that they've maintained a more or less united humanity for 10,000 years.
>>43917094
>Source on that? I don't doubt it, but there isn't that much detail on them. They had quite a few worlds under their belts, so there were surely at least a few Psykers born there.
How much did they really know about Chaos? Did they really make it common knowledge for the average joe to know about? Common knowledge about Slaanesh is enough to throw worlds into the depths of depravity because the Average Joe wasn't meant to know about Slaanesh. For all we know they were like the Ethereals.
>Either way, that doesn't change the fact that the Imperium is the result of everything going wrong.
Is this about the Xenos? It's kind of hard to trust aliens after a vast majority of them are jerks. They don't have to be jerks because of no reason. Maybe they're mind controlled by other aliens or need supplies because Orks wrecked them and they don't feel like asking nicely.
>>43917160
>Why don't they exist anymore?
Because the diplomatic envoy from the Imperium had followers of Chaos in it who stole their stuff, and they assumed the Imperium as a whole was allied with Chaos.
Which is yet another diplomatic mission the Imperium has screwed up because they can't even handle chaos in their own ranks.
The Interez were also fighting on even teems with the Luna Wolves, so its not like they were slouches in a fight.
>>43917200
They were 'devoted to fighting it', and they were bog standard humans.
>Is this about the Xenos?
Only the ones that matter. There were plenty of other things that went to hell for them though. Acting like it was some unavoidable tragedy is flawed thinking.
>>43917232
>Which is yet another diplomatic mission the Imperium has screwed up because they can't even handle chaos in their own ranks.
The Emperor was nowhere even near them. Horus got an idea of it, but he's no psyker. He can't sense the corruption of Erebus's soul. Erebus is extremely convincing by the way. He's described as having a diplomatic voice.
>>43917294
>They were 'devoted to fighting it', and they were bog standard humans.
>No psykers that are trained to fight Chaos
>No holy seals and wards to weaken daemons
>No rocks
>Again no rocks
That could only end poorly for them.
>>43916959
>‘Let me finish, Loken. Kaos, when it manifests, is brutal, rapacious, warlike. It is a force of unquenchable destruction. So the eldar have taught us, and the kinebrach, and so the pure men of the interex have stood to check Kaos wherever it rears its warlike visage. Tell me, captain, how warlike do you appear? Vast and bulky, bred for battle, driven to destroy, led by a man you happily title Warmaster? *War* master? What manner of rank is that? Not Emperor, not commander, not general, but Warmaster. The bluntness of the term reeks of Kaos. We want to embrace you, yearn to embrace you, to join with you, to stand shoulder to shoulder with you, but we fear you, Loken. You resemble the enemy we have been raised from birth to anticipate. The all-conquering, unrelenting daemon of Kaos-war. The bloody-handed god of annihilation.’
>>43917347
>No psykers
>No wards
>No source to say they didn't have either
The entire point of the Interex existing is that is shows an alternative where things might no have ended up so grimdark. To make the setting more grimdark by showing that the Imperium wasn't a necessary evil.
>>43917347
Was Erebus also the Chaos-infested present at the diplomatic talks with the Eldar? Because those also didn't go over so well.
>>43917496
>So the eldar have taught us
>mfw
Eldar? Why would the Eldar waste their time with "inferior races" when there was a disaster to recover from?
>ed by a man you happily title Warmaster? *War* master? What manner of rank is that? Not Emperor, not commander, not general, but Warmaster.
He actually has a point there but the name Interex is far more stupid.
> You resemble the enemy we have been raised from birth to anticipate.
Right. That's real smart. Judging an eight tall man in power armor to serve a bunch of gods that only want to destroy reality. No horns, no spikes, no engravings of daemon faces? He's pure as gold.
>The all-conquering, unrelenting daemon of Kaos-war. The bloody-handed god of annihilation.’
They only knew that Khorne existed? Really?
>>43917537
nah. It's more grimdark if the Imperium is a necessary evil.
>>43917594
When did join the legion? That might have been when Lorgar took command.
>>43917634
>This dark empire is the best possible hope for humanity
>This dark empire is all that was left after the best hope for humanity died
How is that more grimdark?
>>43917634
>Eldar? Why would the Eldar waste their time with "inferior races" when there was a disaster to recover from?
To try and prevent other species from making the same mistake as them. Hell, Eldrad tried warning the Emperor that his favored son would betray him, too.
>>43917496
It's not like the Interex were pacifists. They dressed up in metal horse suits to fight, who are they to criticize?
>>43917752
>>This dark empire is all that was left after the best hope for humanity died
>The Interex
>best hope
The Chaos Gods would still find a way to make things grimdark.
>>43917755
He did no such thing. He warned Fulgrim and only Fulgrim. He just had to pick Fulgrim.
>>43917839
>Implying they weren't
They had better tech, fought space marines without being marines, had Chaos under control far better than the Imperium did, and weren't completely against working with Xenos.
>The Chaos gods would have found a way
Hence proving the Imperium is not a necessary evil
>>43917931
>They had better tech
They couldn't build bombs that get rid of Warp storms.
>Hence proving the Imperium is not a necessary evil
A nobody civilization that isn't galaxy wide and knows they exist? Shouldn't take too much. Send in the Changling to stir up trouble, and give him a few tools to use. Tools being dead worshipers who probably fought for the right to be the tools the Changling needs in the stomachs of the Chaos Gods.
>>43917634
>They only knew that Khorne existed? Really?
If you're going to act retarded, at least claim that they thought Khaine was the God of Chaos.
>>43918109
Bloody handed God. Now who could that be?
>>43917817
They knew not to let their guard down around big guys.
>>43918146
Why no Void Dragon, Outsider, Malal, or Raptor God?
>>43918136
Could possibly work as a Son of Horus chaplain with some work.
>>43918135
Khaine.
Or, maybe it was a figure of speech, shitposter.
>>43918233
>Or, maybe it was a figure of speech, shitposter
>shitposter
That's something ban worthy and I have no reason to do that. It's been fun and all but I something to do. Later.
>>43918019
You're missing the point. The Interex as they were had been doing just fine against Chaos. Imagine the Imperium adopting their methods instead.
The Imperium is not a necessary evil. Full stop.
the fact anyone would want a star trek tier future in real life completely baffles me
40k is the ideal future where every common man in humanity has the possibility to achieve great nobility through selfless act and sacrifice in the service of the collective species - dying for your kind and killing those who seek to extinguish it
the extremity of experience and passionate brief state of life must be brilliant, whether to die in agony devoured by demons or whatever, that very short experience in itself is 10 bagillion times the worth of some consumerist decadent tv watching road to eventually dying in a hospital bed
>>43918360
You don't seem to understand the idea of things men weren't meant to know do you?
>>43918180
Other than the Outsider (who is described pretty vaguely) we don't really have any descriptions of what they look like.
There are fan-interpretations based on the name alone and the fluff (most people envision the Void Dragon as a mechanical dragon of some sorts due to its apparent dominance over technology).
Speaking of the Dragon. Do you guys think a Campaign about the Necrons invading Mars to get to the Void Dragon shard would be interesting?
Having a Necron versus Mechanicus centric conflict would be neat imo. And would give an excuse to make models for some of the bigger guns of both armies (like GW wouldn't jump at the chance at making a $100+ model of the Void Dragon). I don't know exactly how you'd justify it fluff wise, but the concept of it is appealing to me.
>>43918360
Essentially nothing is known about the interex though. We can't make that call and the fact that the imperium survived while the interex didn't is the only solid information we have on which works and which doesn't.
What makes an antagonists interesting?
>>43918430
There was at least one shard of him wrecking everything for some Crons. Ask them what he looks like.
>Crons vs AdMech
Could be fun.
>>43918453
Motives, appearance, abilities, personality, history, and am I missing anything else?
>>43918443
Except the Interex didn't fall to Chaos, they fell to the Imperium.
Either way, its beside the point. The Imperium was not some inevitability.
>>43918490
Interactions with the protagonist, or just with others in general. Having a good dynamic with other characters is part of what makes a good antagonist.
In the Chaos gods case they aren't really antagonist's in a traditional story sense. Since they are a higher power, and are out of the primary context of the setting for the most part. They have a major role in events, but due to them not physically taking part in it, they are more of an antagonistic existence than characters.
>>43918534
That's what I'm saying, they fell to the Imperium. Not only that but to only one or two legions. They were obviously the weaker society.
Plus I think being led by a God (even though he denies it, he still qualifies by virtue of being immensely powerful) makes the Imperium somewhat inevitable.
>>43918415
>40k
>ideal future
the "pro" for 40k you just listed is you can kill things or die try
not everyone worships khorne anon
![a44[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/hsHaDev.png "a44[1].png")
>>43918453
Incomprehensible language.
They're never done right. They're treated like dark supernatural gods of evil when they're not.
In my mind, Chaos is a single entity whose many servants aren't even really separate organisms, just limbs it reaches out. From the lowliest fleeting form in the Warp to renegade Guardsmen and Chaos Gods, it's a single-minded entity with the clear and simple goal of survival. It is propagated and exists via sentient creature's emotion. So what does it do? It uses its one method of hunting to keep alive, that is, using psychic ability in sentient organisms to manifest and create the emotions that sustain it. Without any of this, it's inert and lifeless.
Chaos is a parasite, but a clever, cunning parasite. It knows a few things: sentients want power, and since it can do that in our universe, it grants that power for it's own propagation. The angrier that Khornate Berserker is, the better off Chaos is, the more magical and conniving that Tzeentchian Sorcerer is, the more pleasure those Slaanesh cultists feel and the more rabid suffering Nurgle daemons create, all the more emotion there is for Chaos. Worshipping this thing does nothing, because there's no gods, but guess what, that notion is very useful for Chaos, it incites a religious zeal it feeds right off of.
Why does it kill people, then, you ask? Because it's an animal. It's not an all knowing, all seeing force of spooky darkness behind the veil, it's a beast that gets a surge of emotion-food from sentient beings when they die. If Chaos grew to the point it learned that herding and farming sentient beings could potentially create an unlimited source of things to keep it existing, it would have a true endgame in cosmic domination. But these focal points it has, these Chaos Gods, aren't intelligent in any way - they just do their thing because it puts bread on the table and nothing more.
Realize there's no malignant will behind Chaos, just a very, very clever alien mimic breeding its own food in your head.
>>43907877
There is literally nothing horrifying about Chaos, at least in a meta-gaming perspective. There's no sense of mystery. It would be much more interesting if there were multitudes of minor gods instead, each vying for souls and power within the warp.
Chaos will eventually undo itself. If it ever manages to conquer the universe then by the principles of chaos it will undo itself. the "evil" chaos gods will be destroyed by chaos gods of virtue. Ultimately all of existence is cyclical.
>>43916510
Bullshit.
It's the way the setting works, and not a thing more.
>>43920683
That's exactly my point, the Imperium is necessary due to the hostility of the setting. I'm not saying we need the Imperium right now in the real world. But it's necessary in the 40k universe due to the myriad threats facing mankind.
>>43918416
There aren't any such things.
>>43918443
China's been politically cohesive for longer than the West has known how to make soap.
Two centuries ago they were conquered by black powder, opium, and decadence.
You don't know shit about what a "strong culture" is or what can destroy one.
>>43916510
GW is british, so there's alot of pro-empire sentiments in it. It's quite refreshing really, empires are usually portrayed as the 1 dimensional evil force. While historical empires definitely had their fair share of cruel treatment to others, they weren't unambiguously evil. Imagine joining Rome in the height of its power, they were often fair to cities who co-operated, allowing them to keep their own rulers and retain their former tax rates. While they demanded a tithe, the benefits of joining the empire far outweighed the drawbacks.
>>43920784
>There aren't any such things.
You can't be serious. A man who hasn't went through the training Inquisitors, Grey Knights, a Librarian or a Sister doesn't need to know about Chaos because he will acknowledge Chaos's existence. When he does that Chaos will acknowledge his existence if hasn't now and know that he knows about it. His entire life will be the knowledge of the Chaos Gods watching him watching them watching him watching them watching him back. When Angron and his posse arrived on Armageddon their presence drove some of the people mad. Reading heretical texts can drive you mad. Have you forgotten that Chaos drives you insane?
>>43910457
>every ambiguously written god or character is just secretly tzeentch
Worst part of chaos writing
>>43920784
I don't get what your point is. China has been conquered numerous times and been ruled in many different ways. None of them were strong enough to survive more than a few centuries.
The Imperium survived for 10,000 years as an unconquered entity. It's obviously doing a lot right.
>>43920813
One thing I love about 40k is that underneath the very bombastic and goofy surface it's really quite nuanced. Every faction has many facets even though many people (even GW at times) get fixated on a single one. The Imperium can be seen as tyrannical or the saviors of humanity. The Eldar can be seen as a near-perfect race tragically brought low, or as decadent and arrogant fools who brought about their own demise. Even the Necrons have a tragic story that makes them deeper than just being terminator ripoffs.
>>43907877
Thats because they aren't exactly antagonists. Not to say they aren't evil because they are, but an antagonist is usually the thing opposing the hero which the hero eventually overcomes. 40K being as dark as it is the game flatly says beating the chaos gods is impossible, thus they are closer to setting elements than antagonists since the heroes can't reasonably interact with them in any meaningful way.
>>43917755
Amazingly the Eldar, who are sapient, can actually take sapient actions like diplomacy, manipulation, and planning.
Here's a thing I've worked out: be wary of settings where metahumans or near-human aliens only make mistakes when they're not taking "human" perspectives.
For example the Eldar really only get totally fucked when they're doing something very "Eldar" like choosing suicidal pride over pragmatic compromise. Or because "suddenly they're just RAWR WAR KHAINE" when a plain "human" mind can see the value of patience or subterfuge.
When the Banshees run up the middle at the big guns, when the Hawks don't bring parachutes, when the Guardians try to corner CSM in tombs without heavy weapons, when Jain Zar is just too proud to immediately kill an important target she has at her mercy, etc etc.
That's how 40k works; that's the Derp in the GrimDerp.
Given a choice between doing something that'll advance their goals and preserve their numbers and doing something "Eldar" that will cost them thousands of lives who'll spend eternity in all the hells that can exist the setting will take the latter route every time because GrimDerp is it's own reward.
Until it's not, but the apologists keep GW in business.
>>43917496
Fascinating passage. Thanks for sharing.
Hey look, it's the Eldar cultivating proxies against their greatest enemies.
>mfw this confuses someone.
This kind of analysis shows up in at least one other modern HH book -flight of the Eisenstein or it's predecessor.
Amazingly the warrior-monks stripped of everything shred of humanity that the engineers could find look like a kind of weaponized insanity to other cultures.
Whodathunkit?
>>43921052
>Amazingly the Eldar, who are sapient, can actually take sapient actions like diplomacy, manipulation, and planning.
>>43907877
>>43921036
Imagination in the stone age one man said he was going to fight the ocean and you'd still be underestimating Chaos
>>43914298
But doesn't Khorne sort of if not disapprove, at least not reward that kind of thing? I know "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!" but i thought you only got bloody brownie points if you killed something worth killing and not just set an orphanage on fire
>>43921137
I have a goal in life. Thank you friend.
>>43921290
Good luck Caligula
>>43920948
I'm going to walk away. I'm not bothering with someone who talks without thinking.
>>43920993
China also never had a full barbarous reversion like 40k Humanity did.
Despite all those many, awful wars the culture maintained the knowledge of things like paper and gun powder.
Uh, yeah. No. The Imperium is the star of the show. They got dat Plot Armor. That doesn't prove shit about how well it works -though if you'd like a real world taste a travel visa for North Korea isn't actually that hard to get. Just say you're going to worship the lineage of gods that is the Kim family.
Incidentally all those cultures the Imperium takes cues from? Dead.
Stalinist Russia? Dead.
Nazi Germany? Dead.
British Imperialism? Dead.
Anglican Supremacy? Dead.
Turns out psychotic autocracies who's leaders only _think_ they're gods turn out to be inefficient, blindly self-destructive, and riddled with rebellions because humans _don't_ actually want to live in a condition of perpetual terrified submission.
Here's some shit that makes me embarassed to be sharing this fandom with someone who doesn't know it: the Imperium IS tyrannical.
The Imperium claims that by existing as human, even one on the other side of the galaxy, that person is their property. That person is equipment. They're hands that hold a gun or work a job. They're a soul that the God-Emperor owns by right of divinity. They're a tongue that gets cut out if it blasphemes. They're conscripted into a culture that'll kill it's soldiers to prove it's purity and that'll bomb it's cities to prevent a "moral threat."
The Imperium "reserves the right" to send you to any death it thinks serves it's ends. It'll take your children, your future, and your name if it wants to. It'll send missionaries to torture you because you were lost without them. It'll rape every centimeter of your planet because there's something useful there -and if there isn't, it's a penal colony or a grox farm waiting to happen.
>>43921392
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheseAreThingsManWasNotMeantToKnow
>>43920993
>>43921392
I don't know what you think or why, but what the Imperium actually is is a nod to "Dune," to "The Mote in God's Eye," to "Starship Troopers," to "Judge Dread," to "1984," to "Catch 22", and to the idea that the high point of British history was World War 2.
It's the sum of all known human evils and it's reinforced by a setting that makes it look "better" than any alternative because that sells books and models and overpriced codices.
Ironically, supremely fucking ironically, I agree with your second point. When I like 40k it's because it has unplumbed depths of perspective and experience. There's a lot going on, and a lot happening behind the scenes, and a lot of complex motivations attributable to possibly interesting actors.
But it's also the playground of rabid dog-whistle racists, ignorant wannabe fascists, and fucking bolter porn from horizon to horizon.
40k could go a hundred different directions, but what it wants to do most is suck that Spess Mehrine dick just a little harder because that's "what the fans want."
Fuck those fans. They're the worst thing about this hobby.
>>43921568
>but what it wants to do most is suck that Spess Mehrine dick just a little harder because that's "what the fans want."
It's GW, Anon. Don't blame the marines. Blame Games Workshop.
>>43921503
It's actually simple: preconceptions are the problem.
The Emperor lied about the nature of the universe, a cult sprung up in the shadows of that lie, and now everyone is trapped in it because to question it is to court a terrible death.
There's nothing about the torments of the Chaos Powers that sincere, pious Christians didn't believe wasn't also the truth about our real world.
And yet they got the fuck out of bed and did their jobs.
Enlightenment and education had nothing to do with it; 40k loves the idea of profound human frailty but it's bullshit.
People do what their culture tells them to do, and they believe what they have to. The idea of sanity-swallowing cosmic horror is a fantasy started by writers who thought mixed race kids were genetically inferior to anemic, inbred royal families.
So no, there isn't any "Things Man Wasn't Meant To Know."
Ask a fucking Eldar. His ass is probably related to someone Slaanesh is forever, FOR FUCKING EVER, doing it's best guro rule #34 to because their soulstone broke in a skycar accident. He doesn't even have the luxury of ignorance.
But the bread needs baking, so he rolls off his Wraithfuton, pulls on his Wraithboxers, and takes the Wraithbus to the fucking Wraithbakery.
This setting needs to unfuck itself. Noblebright Dan Abnett bullshit doesn't work with Aaron Dembski-Bowden horror and torment. The Anglican Nazi Overdrive faction can't be forever canonized as the "good guys" because the audience is too self-indulgent to actually get into the darkness and misery of everything it is and everything it opposes.
Or maybe it can. Books sell, minis get painted, who cares?
>>43921703
I don't even hate the Marines. I hate the fans.
I hate the selfishness and myopia.
I hate our shameful lust to ruin and murder because waah waah we're out-people let's pretend we wanna rape something.
I hate the cowardice that insists we cling to craven anti-heroes and reflexive tribalism because fuck us if we'll admit we have problems to fix.
I hate us. I hate the nerdrage victimhood.
I hate our need to declaim a profound lack of aspiration.
No wonder we like 40k. It's everything we are.
It doesn't want grow up either.
>>43921790
That's why I like the Eldar, btw.
They don't lie to themselves.
They're wise.
Not good, not kind, not generous.
They're wise.
They know what's going on and what they have to do -except when it's time to do the job and die like dogs so a closeted skinhead can bust his pimply nut knowing fictional people who dared think they were better than his sacred icons are suffering in the worst imaginable ways forever.
Like the woman said, "dignity is not a quality available here."
>>43920589
But then Chaos is just extra dimensional Tyranids
>>43921194
Khorne disapproves of using sorcery to kill, and I think most would agree he has a preference for GLORIOUS MELEE COMBAT.
Except they keep trying to play up how much he doesn't care, when in reality Khorne having preferences for where the blood and skulls come from makes perfect sense and helps makes him and his followers more interesting.
>>43916042
Those mindless robots were better than the copy-pasted space Tomb Kings of now.
>>43923400
Well, the good news is that they still exist. Nothing has been removed.
>>43914045
They've done that with certain CSM Warbands such as the Crimson Slaughter and the Chapter Master who wanted to be able to tell if someone was lying or not.
>>43920589
>They're treated like dark supernatural gods of evil when they're not.
Or maybe they are, can't think of any other reason why one of the books about them would be titled "Slaves to Darkness".
>>43923357
Why should Khorne really care? A skull is a skull and blood is blood. Khorne is said to look favorably upon those who kill those closest to them, because they realize that killing is all that matters.
>>43923400
Tomb Kings are better than a race whose sole inspiration is some movie.
>>43923484
>Why should Khorne care?
>Proceeds to point out another way Khorne cares
That's what I'm talking about. Khorne has plenty of little rules and preferences already.
He clearly cares.
>>43923484
Never said Tomb Kings weren't better than Necrons, anon.
>>43923531
He only cares because the person has realized the profound truth that killing is all that matters to him. Doesn't seem to have anything to do with the quality of those killed and more what been learned from it.
>>43923572
>>43923531
>"Khorne cares not from where the Blood flows."
>"But if you could do it on a battlefield, that'd be great."
>"Oh, and if it isn't too much trouble, make sure you've got some friends on the other side so you can kill them too."
>"Just don't use any Sorcery. That's for cowards."
>"Well, unless you're summoning some daemons, then I guess I can let it slide."
>But you know, 'cares not'. Do whatever you want."
>>43918146
Is this from a video?
>>43918019
>They couldn't build bombs that get rid of Warp storms.
So? The Imperium can't also, retard.
>>43923484
>Tomb Kings are better than a race whose sole inspiration is some movie.
Lovercraftian themes were among the Oldcrons themes (sleeping ancient gods and their minions). Now it's solely wacky Tomb Kings with no variation or subversion. It ain't better.
>>43923924
Yes
Text To Speech Emperor
It's an extra on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq-6aj9sNvo
>>43925223
What was Lovecraftian about the C'tan? They were just beings who before contact with the Necrons had no tangible forms and lived by devouring the energy from suns.
>>43925305
The sleeping dreaming gods whose awakening would bring calamity and death to all.
Also the theme about forbidden knowledge corrupting and driving truth seekers mad.
>>43925203
AdMech can.
>>43921978
>They're wise.
No they are most certianly not. If they were wise Dawn of War would have never happened. A farseer would have seen Kyras's plot five thousand years early, but guess what? He's got what he wanted.
>>43914338
>outside of the big four
Every time i read this I can't help but think of the big 4 compound lifts
T-thanks /fit/Khorne=Deadlift, Tzentch=OHP, Nurgle=Bench, Slaanesh=Squats
>>43925659
They can't, retard.
Their experiments failed with high causalities and they gave up on the project.
