Last thread had some weapons and armor discussion with KM, a little bit of a fecht, and Jimmy revealed he's working on airplane rules for Call of the Void.
Previous Thread: >>43795527
Song of Swords is a realistic fantasy tabletop RPG that draws inspiration from historical fechtbuchs, weapons and armor. Its combat system is fast and it can be used for both fantasy and historical/mundane settings. It is heavily based on the Riddle of Steel system.
Call of the Void is a pulpy sci-fi tabletop RPG about fighting space-nazis and hunting giant whales with harpoons made out of the moon. It is based on the Friday Night Firefight engine for modern firefights in close quarters, and can handle mundane or magical settings.
Here's a .rar archive with the newest version of the rules as well as all related current working documents. At this time the latest version is v1.9.9:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/12xqm1p2q69m392/Song_of_Swords.rar
Here's Ballad of the Laser Whales' latest version: https://www.mediafire.com/?rtbjk51jnm2wv8a
Here's a wiki detailing SoS's fantasy setting, getting filled up bit by bit as Jimmy reveals more details:
http://tattered-realms.wikia.com/wiki/Tattered_Realms_Wiki
There's also a roll20 room where new players are encouraged to try the rules, test new rules, and find game breaking issues: https://app.roll20.net/join/346755/hRKd4w
The room might be empty, but the people who teach the game still browse the thread frequently. If you're looking to learn, post here in the thread. We also play Guy Windsor's card game Audatia in the room.
Right lads, so should we leave Öke's fate uncertain or shall we bring his little adventure closure?
>>43893007
>That look of suffering resignation on left dude's face.
If you want a loog of the future, imagine being stuck in coda longa, forever.
>>43893007
Dead Zells soon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj8HJq067UY
>>43895756
Dead Chirons shall follow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaM3q1Ioj-o
>>43893813
It looked like we'd already got him killed.
7 effective pain with, what, just as many more guys to kill?
SoS does not Hotline Miami very well.
>>43896044
Well, he had only 3 henchmen left to kill, having already caused the boss of the operation to flee and gravely wounded his bodyguard. And Öke doesn't die easy, now.
>>43896044
I knew we should've eaten all the drug candy.
>>43896851
>wanting to go berserk
shiggy diggy
>>43895854
It never fails to amaze me that that fucking plane stayed in service so long.
How do Karthackis fight?
>>43902103
I think the warrior-nobles are big on horse archery and lancing, whereas the foot soldiers favor some sort of hooked spear.
>>43902103
The Genosian stereotype of Kals is as men on horseback in heavy armor with bows. Some of them also use lances or sabers, but bows are the big one.
Most of the Host of Karthack, however, isn't cavalry. The Kals train units of men at arms called Shulkas, who most often fight on foot as spearmen. Some of the provinces are known for different weapons as well. Kar-Druss, for example, is famous for its rustic Kals who prefer to fight on foot, and their levied hill-folk Shulkas, who carry axes with crescent blades and round shields rimmed with bronze.
In war they are very disciplined, and it is very rare for Karthacks to disobey orders or to break ranks. They move with impressive coordination thanks to flag signals and trumpets, and also the use of trained birds, who carry long pennants that can convey certain signals for their masters.
All in all a very effective host, one that has stood the test of time against foes Eastern and Western alike.
>>43902985
Has any western country tried to invade Karthak?
>>43903267
Nobody's really had a venue, though there have been wars before, usually in what is now Kurtiye or Jenoesa back when Karthack's arm was a little bit longer.
The Dacians had a brief conflict with the Karthacks within Cross way, but that was too small-scale to really call a war.
Nobody since the old Ruvian Empire has actually attempted to invade Karthack itself. The idea is almost ludicrous.
>>43903570
>Nobody since the old Ruvian Empire has actually attempted to invade Karthack itself.
So the old Empire did try? Can you tell us about that?
>>43903649
This was a looooong time ago, but Emperor Diomedes led a staggering twelve legions into Karthack to try and subjugate the ancient kingdom. To that end, he conquered what is now Kurtiye, and established a network of fortresses that allowed him to funnel an enormous amount of men and supplies into Karthack from the South.
The war went very well for Emperor Diomedes at first. He burned a significant amount of the southern country and destroyed several great armies sent against him, but eventually the war reached a stanstill at Kar-Karthack itself, where the Emperor's host successfully plundered the city, but were unable to take the Black Fortress at the heart of the city.
The Karthacks continued assembling armies and flinging them at the Ruvians, and eventually it became apparent that even if they successfully conquered Kar-Karthack, the Sorcerer-Princes of the other regions would fight just as bitterly--perhaps moreso--in defense of their own territory. Diomedes accepted very generous terms for his withdrawal from the country, and returned to Ruvia.
There, Diomedes used the money to construct "The Walls of Diomedes," a colossal defensive works/beautification program that still stands to this day. Massive walls covered in marble statues and reliefs that span from one sea to another, towers almost a hundred feet tall decorated with magnificent bronze beasts, and forts as beautiful as cathedrals dotting the landscape.
The idea was that in peacetime, the forts and towers could serve as temples. Today, many of the forts have been converted into churches, but the walls have become all too relevant in Ruvian politics, as any civil war would revolve around them and the provinces they divide.
>>43904202
What a pimp.
Holy shit things are actually moving forward.
Lads, we've made progress. And I mean serious progress. Good news soon, and I mean it this time.
>>43905809
You know the drill. Duck, head, timestamp.
>>43905860
It's me this time. I got word from Bones. We've cleared a major hump and we're almost to the point where we can actually move to the next phase. Don't consider this a promise, since I haven't given a date, I just want you to feel the relief that I'm feeling.
>>43905901
Yeah I bet when you and a Boner look at those anime faces you get a relief 5 minutes later.
>>43905901
>half the bottom row is Nazis
It's Jimmy all right.
>>43905901
W E D N E S D A YAlso>40 and 43You've saved the same fucking anime girl reaction face twice, dongle.
>>43906094
Probably a copying error when I was fucking your mother moving the images from my disk drive to my SSD. It happens sometimes.
>>43906094
As Jimmy is a pleb who doesn't show file extensions, there may be some difference in size or animation we aren't able to notice.
>>43906137
Where are we on air combat? I came for the halberd and I'm staying for the Tomcats.
>>43906162
>Tomcats
That's a few decades out of our range. We're working in WWII tech for now, though I have every intention of trying to carry this into later eras.
Right now we're prop or early-jet. So the Me 262 could still be represented with our rules right now. Maybe (maybe) something like the Vampire or even the Sabre.
That said, this was basically the coolest era of air combat, with the most variety of aircraft, so I think it's the most fun place to start.
>all these WWIIaboos
God damn it, I come on /tg/ instead of /hist/ to avoid this sort of thing.
Fuck me. Jimmy, how did people come up with the idea of voidships in the first place?
>>43906217
>God damn it, I come on /tg/ instead of /hist/ to avoid this sort of thing.
You what?
>>43906248
Me like big swords
/hist/ no like big swords
/tg/ like big swords
Me like /tg/
>>43906217
you'd better start believing in WWII games anon.
YOU'RE IN ONE.
Voidshops started when people noticed that whalebones could float. Laser-Whales occasionally commit suicide by throwing themselves onto shore and sitting there until they die. Aside from that, their bones wash up onto the coast, since they float indefinitely at about the height of most islands.
For whatever reason, man discovered Whalebone and realized its amazing powers. They hoarded it and eventually made ships out of it, and then began hunting other whales for their bones and oil.
>>43906282
>Laser-Whales occasionally commit suicide by throwing themselves onto shore and sitting there until they die.
That sounds like a particularly horrible way to die.
Like committing suicide by burning yourself to death. Is there a particular reason why whales choose to die like that?
>>43906254
Honestly, what's a gun but a very elaborate type of spear shooting smaller spears? In that sense, a tank is simply a modernised version of a knight with a lance.
>>43906305
Never in my life have I been so gleeful to refuse to answer a question.
>>43906305
Protest?
That's why people set themselves on fire IRL.
>>43906345
What the-- fuck you Jimmy.
Is this so that GMs can make up their own super spoopy plot-hook reason, or just because you enjoy playing silly buggers?
>>43906381
>waahhh why doesn't he answer all my questions like a proper catamite
>>43906418
I want to know if it will ever get answered.
If it's so that the GM can make their own plothooks up, then no, it won't be. If it's for some other reason (e.g. he doesn't know the answer himself yet, or given his reaction more likely because it's something that could be the subject of a splat) then maybe we will.
>>43906381
No!
>>43906447
Dealing with Jimmy Rome:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X1VjGsZeyw
>>43906498
>Badhorse
THE COMPANY OF GIZKA
IS WATCHING FUCK YOU NIGGER
NO RHYMING FOR YOU BITCH YOU'D BETTER HAVE MY MONEY
IF YOU DON'T I'LL CUT YOUR DICK OFF, THERE'S YOUR FUNNY LYMRICK
THERE'S NO PUNCHLINE
YOU ARE MY BITCH
GET MY MONEY
OR FUCKING DIE
>>43906518
Ah, blank verse without the verse. The most lazy form of poetry.
>>43906531
AND YOU
YOU ARE NEXT
SERIOUSLY
I'M GONNA FUCK YOUR RIBCAGE
VIOLETS ARE BLUE
>>43906531
Have you learned nothing?
>>43906531
Totally in character. Gizka is the helicopter in Godfather 3.
Been lurking for a while and just started reading the pdf for SoS last night.
So let's say I have 2 people who are always super enthusiastic about table tops and love to learn new systems so games go smooth in 90% of occasions, how clunky is this game?
Also what is the game good at doing?
What are some really good things the system does right or wrong?
Any places where a homebrew decision might be a better choice instead of book rulings?
>>43906631
>how clunky is this game?
The basic system is very straightforward and pretty simple to learn. Most of the complexity stems from the breadth of possible actions you can take, actually resolving those is quite easy.
>Also what is the game good at doing?
Melee combat. Seriously, that's its greatest strength by far, melee combat is amazingly varied and detailed while still being straightforward to resolve.
>What are some really good things the system does right or wrong?
What it does do very right is give the impression that armed combat is really very decidedly dangerous, and not something to be engaged in willy-nilly as the default solution. Even a capable and experienced fighter can quickly find themselves up shit creek if they end up being outnumbered or otherwise in a bad situation. Also, it's very setting-agnostic and can be adapted to almost any setting that involves people mostly fighting with melee weapons.
On the bad side, I'd say that character creation and advancement is still a bit unfocused. While that does make it very versatile, leveling up doesn't have quite the same sense of "damn, this is gonna make a big difference now" that you can find in some other systems.
>Any places where a homebrew decision might be a better choice instead of book rulings?
Melee combat with multiple people in the same bout (i.e. everybody actively fighting everybody else at the same time) is still something of a mess to handle. It might work smoother if you just throw that out and handle turn sequence in whatever way feels most natural at the moment. Also try to pair up people into separate bouts (i.e. 1on1 duels) wherever feasible.
>>43906518
The Company of Gizka
Is coming for you Coon,
No rhyming for you bitch you'd better have my loot,
If not I'll cut your dick off, have that for thy rapport
There's no punchline
You are my bitch
Pay debts or you'll die
Like a Whore
>>43906631
I recommend getting some experienced folks to help you learn the rules in addition to reading them yourself. Most of us who learned Riddle of Steel learned it by playing with Galt on /tg/, and read the rulebook later. It's the same with SoS - it's quite easy to teach the game, and more difficult to learn from the book alone.
>>43906631
It's not very clunky at all, honestly. The worst part starting out is flicking between manoeuvres.
The game is good at narrative (especially intrigue), even if it looks like a crunch-only kind of game. When getting into combat presents an actual, genuine threat, you suddenly don't want to get into it so easily. And when you *do* get into it, you want it to be as far from a fair fight as possible. The game revolves around stacking odds in your favour, ensuring that by the time you get into combat you've ideally already won.
This has another unexpected side-effect. It actually gives weight to morale choices. When going out of your way to challenge the King's men and those Jewish children they were going to pogrom could very well result in your death, making the decision to man up and do something makes your character legitimately good -- and the choice much harder. Likewise, when you could oh so easily kill the King and inherit large lands by poisoning the entire banquet -- you'd also be killing all the other innocents who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or you could take a different, more dangerous route that doesn't kill everyone else. The choice actually matters, and the realistic(ish) combat makes characters that are believable and narratives that are tense as shit.
>Any places where a homebrew decision might be a better choice instead of book rulings?
Probably, but the system tends to be fairly modular. You can just ignore fatigue rules if you find them too record-heavy, for example.
>>43906896
For new players, you probably want to slot things in slowly. First basic maneuvers. Then more complex maneuvers. Then fatigue if you want it. Then TZMs, etc.
>>43900848
That was mostly because Luftwaffe procurement was somehow even more fucked up than the Heer version. It got to the point where the guy who'd been put in charge of it, Ernst Udet, a highly decorated and proven WWI ace, ended up having a number of nervous breakdowns, spiraled into heavy alcoholism, and eventually committed suicide. Udet had been a great proponent of dive-bombing and the Ju-87 in particular, but nobody ever got around to designing a proper replacement. The Me 410 might have been able to do it, but its development had been such a mess that it was never really built in sufficient numbers, especially since most of its airframes were devoted to a destroyer-configuration rather than a bombing one.
>>43895756
Makes me wonder, is a Fecht still called a Fecht when we do it entirely with airplanes? Would it be a Flug instead? A Zirkus, maybe?
>>43909725
Flug objectively sounds best.
>>43909725
Second for Flug.
>>43909725
Well, it could mean Fecht as in Luftgefecht.
But Flug is fine too.
>>43909899
>>43910725
>>43910985
Well in that case, Flug soon. As soon a Jimmy signs off on the rules being pretty enough for general consumption.
>>43906282
Why did you have to make it a WW2 game instead of a WW1/late 20th century game?
>>43912546
Because ever since the end of World War 2, when man has looked up at the stars he dreamed of one thing.
Space Nazis.
>>43913405
I remember trying to have a conversation with my friend after his dad had bought himself Wolfenstein: The New Order.
It was hard to talk, because I constantly heard snippets along the lines of "Look son, I'm shooting Nazis! On the moon! Eat lead you moon Nazis!".
>>43913550
>Wolfenstein: The New Order.
That game really was surprisingly excellent. The ambient lines for the nazis were particularly fun.
"Shit, it's broken. What now?"
"Eh, fuck it. Let's get wasted."
>>43905901
What should I use to model clubbing someone with a pistol?
What's the DTN of bows or crossbows?
Shouldn't there be a section detailing the implications of shield degradation, and the either the cost of repair (if possible), or when I should consider replacement?
>>43908479
> Luftwaffe procurement was somehow even more fucked up than the Heer version
accurate pictorial representation
>>43914360
>What should I use to model clubbing someone with a pistol?
Jimmy has once answered this by saying to treat a pistol whip as if you had metal knuckles or a gauntlet when doing a Straight Punch or Hook Punch maneuver.
>What's the DTN of bows or crossbows?
None, you'll have to houserule that in. Use musket melee stats as a baseline.
>Shouldn't there be a section detailing the implications of shield degradation, and the either the cost of repair (if possible), or when I should consider replacement?
No. With the mechanics as they are now, you'll judge the time to get a replacement by how easy your shield will be to Hew. The cost of repairs can be houseruled easily and without concern.
>>43914996
The Me 262 actually did bring the kind of k/d ratio to the table that it could have changed the course of the war if it had been put into full production earlier. I guess hindsight is 20/20 though, who would've guessed that of all the dumb projects, the jet bomber-hunter would've actually worked?
>>43916958
The Komet sounds like the sort of thing the Burdinadin would make if they tried their hands at planes.
>>43917821
Why does it have a propeller?
>>43918332
Same reason early steamboats have sails.
>>43918616
That propeller does not look nearly large enough to actually propel anything.
>>43918706
'cause it probably isn't. Just there in case the jet engine fails
>>43918706
It's probably for stabilization or to help guide the plane when it's gliding to a landing or something.
>>43915608
The matter of damaged shields is one that is incredibly, heavily implied by the mechanics, and for it go completely unacknowledged by the text is a glaring absence.
We have acknowledgement of how table heavy the equipment chapter is, of the regional nature of prices, of the existence of archetypal armor kits, and other concerns- Why not this one?
And rule 0 is never an excuse for game design.
>>43918861
Don't worry, it's not like the game is ever going to be finished anyway.
>>43918706
It powers a generator for electricity.
>>43919207
B-but Jimmu said
Oh well, Dorf Fort updates tomorrow.
>>43918861
>The matter of damaged shields is one that is incredibly, heavily implied by the mechanics
Nnnnno, it's directly stated. The game doesn't need more rules about minutae. But if you want them, homebrew them for yourself.
>>43919276
>believing Jimmy's lies
Until I have a hard copy in my hands with ink stamps of the dev team's dicks on the back cover, I won't believe a thing.
How do you stat a linothorax?
>>43922378
Depends on what's in it, they were sort of varied. Quilted+Plackart can do the trick for linen+bronze belly band, if you remove the hip defense. For the type with inlaid bronze scaling, lamellar or brigandine should do okay, just crank the cost up to 11 in either case.
Also, ignore the bronze rules, they are literally retarded.
>>43922378
Depends on whose version you believe regarding the armor's composition.
>>43922378
I like 4/4/4 with the textile rule.
>>43916958
Nyeeeh. Even with the limited number already produced they were running critically low on light metals and instead had to look for cheapo alternatives such as constructing the fuselage out of fucking wood. Fuel was also always in short supply. It also wasn't a particularly good bomber anyway, so even if they slaughtered allied aircraft left and right you'd probably still end up with russian tankers drinking schnapps in Berlin while asking people who won the air war.
Basically German was so outmatched on an industrial and strategical level that no one single Wunderwaffe (outside of maybe nuke-carrying accurate ICBMs, I suppose) could have made a meaningful difference to the outcome of the war. Even if, say, the Tiger and Panther had actually been as good as people tend to hype them up, it still wouldn't have mattered because german factories only ever managed building one of those for every 3-4 equivalent allied tanks that the allies could put out.
>>43924154
It was an awful bomber, but if there had been a real counter to Russian Ground Attackers, that might've influenced something.
The point is that if Allied (American/British) bombing had been halted, maybe a more amicable peace could have been reached with the West instead of a Soviet occupation.
>>43918332
As >>43919275 said:
"A small air-driven propeller powered the Me 163's generator, providing electrical current for the aircraft's systems."
>>43918861
>Durability
>Durability refers to the shield’s resistance to physical damage. If a shield suffers damage (from a Hew Maneuver, or similar source) equal to its Durability, it is destroyed. Each time a shield sustains a Hew attempt that does not destroy it, its Durability is permanently reduced by 2. Each time an attack of any sort that lands on a Shield’s protected areas inflicts damage higher than the shield’s Durability, Durability is permanently reduced by 1.
Page 147, mang
>>43917821
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdfaust
>The Komet was so fast that pilots found it difficult to fire enough cannon rounds to destroy a bomber in a single pass. The Jagdfaust was developed to address this problem. A 5 cm shell was mounted in a launch tube held in place by a pair of thin pins. Five such tubes were mounted vertically (to fire upward) in each wing. To ensure it would be fired at the correct time, the weapon featured a simple form of automated trigger in which an optical photocell detected the dark silhouette of an Allied bomber replacing bright blue sky and triggered the firing of the armed Jagdfaust guns. When the weapon fired, the force of the launch would break the pins holding the tube in place and the heavy tube would be ejected downward to offset the momentum of the explosive force of the shell.
jesus christ what the fuck
>>43929264
Overengineering's the name of the game.
It's Tuesday so that means it's time to get ready for disappointment.
>>43927290
That's explaining how shields gets damaged, but it doesn't acknowledge damaged shields.
Refer back to my original point about repairing/replacing a battle-worn shield. It's something that *has* to happen, and with some apparent regularity, but it doesn't even get a throw away line.
>>43930979
Shield loses durability => Shield Breaks => Shield stops working.
Man you are clearly operating on a whole other level from me because I just don't see the issue.
>>43930979
You... replace it like you would literally any other item? You go to wherever people make and/or sell shields in your setting and proceed to exchange currency for goods and services.
>>43930979
I'm pretty sure it's just a matter of buying another. I don't think players need to be told that.
>>43930979
Repairing probably takes crafting which isn't hammered out yet. If they want to get it fixed instead getting a New shield, just charge them half of what a New shield Costs.
>>43930979
What the fuck are you even crying about?
>>43930979
There's nothing to really be said for it. If the shield sustains damage, its durability is permanently reduced. Shields cannot be repaired, the act of doing so would essentially constitute making a new shield.
If your shield is damaged or breaks, you throw it out and buy a new one. That's all there is to it. I don't see why this is such a big issue.
>>43936993
Have you figured out how magical items, or even how silversteel/orichalcum, interact with all of these fancy rules for destroying player equipment?I can't access the book right now.
>>43936993
Laser Whales question, is there any degree of gun control or regulation in Chiron? I'm getting ready to run a game for one of my friends and I want to know whether civilians there would be likely to be armed.
>>43936993
i think anon says about what sort of penalty should a damaged shield have, for example, if it should provide reduced AV because of it
>>43937114
Generally speaking, magical weapons are immune to destruction. In some cases, the haft of a magical weapon can be damaged, but the metal components will remain enchanted.
Grandfather's axe sort of scenario, except not at all because the magic of the magic axe actually tangibly resides in the blade and not as some nebulous concept of identity.
As for special materials, I think they have some effect on durability, which would make them harder to break.
>>43937141
Chiron practices universal conscription, and every citizen is issued and required to keep a rifle during and after their service. There are shooting ranges where every male citizen must register and prove that he has fired X rounds in practice annually or else suffer an impropriety tax.
Personal weapons are more closely regulated, but not by much. Though, of course, criminals, foreigners and "degenerates" (anyone the government sterilizes for being imperfect, incompetent or immoral) are forbidden from owning weapons at all.
>>43937570
Hoy Jombo, what's panic modifier for monsters in Laser Whales?
>>43937570
The problem with "special materials have more durability" is that such is ignored in the case of the Crushing quality- which we have no method of counteracting right now. Get hit, shit is bit.
>>43936993
That's all you have to say. People will ask what to do with a damaged shield. Right now, there is no answer to that question. Outright broken, it's implicit, but damaged? Nothing.
Was the confusion between the interaction with Blood Loss and Sepsis addressed on your end yet?
>>43937631
Panic modifiers aren't quite implemented yet, but basically when you see a monster, or in other situations, you suffer a penalty to attacks equal to the Panic Modifier.
At a certain point it can also cause you to freak out and break cover, which is in some ways worse than not being able to hit anything.
>>43937935
How central to the game do you imagine aerial combat being? Is it like a sideshow or is it going to be one of the big selling points of the game?
>>43939324
If a game about being space/sky pirates in dieselpunk fantasy land doesn't have aerial combat as one of its main selling points, something has gone terribly wrong.
>>43939324
I don't think it'll be idiosyncratic with the game, but it's definitely going to be a selling point.
I did a lot of research to try and find other games that did air combat in any degree of depth, and I came up pretty short. I figure it can't hurt to edge in on that market a bit.
>>43939623
>"It can't hurt to edge"
>Jimmy Rome on game design, December 2015
>>43939623
Was CotV at all influenced by Man in the High Castle? There seems to be a lot of nazi stuff coming out these days.
>>43941865
I've never watched it, but I've heard it's a good show. Mostly we included space nazis because they're cool. Who doesn't like space nazis?
>>43937690
>People will ask what to do with a damaged shield.
You are the only person in two years to ask it. You are making a mountain out of nothing. There's nothing to be said on it, according to both the game developer and everyone else. Just shut up about it already. Keep talking and you'll be a new chainfag.
>>43942133
There's no need to be upset. I don't see what the big deal is, but if someone's concerned about it than they're concerned about it. I'll take note of it and review later.
Bump with space nazis
>>43942133
We aren't here to fucking suck Jimmy's dick, anon. We're here precisely to tear Opaque's game apart. You discouraging the free discourse of problems in SoS is doing the opposite of helping them.
>>43943582
Oh horse shit. Saying that something isn't a problem falls under your free discourse, too.
>>43943678
>Just shut up about it already. Keep talking and you'll be a new chainfag.
Suppressing complaints is a sure-fire way to fuck up a game.
>>43918332
power generator for the electronics.
>>43942133
Maybe no one has said anything in two years because people here mostly play arena style fights, and not campaigns? In such a context, imagining anything outside the bounds of the instanced fight scene would be superfluous to the player. Even the contiguous fechts in the threads mostly jump from fight to fight (kind of the point, after all), and I can't even remember the last one that even included a shield.
Most of the few campaigns I've seen so far, as well, have been near-modern, and the era of pike-and-shot doesn't tend to see much use of shield use.
I've just been trying to have a discussion. The only people getting upset are, well, all of you. And for what reason, I can't say. Until Jimmy actually showed up, there wasn't actually anything being talked about.
>>43942229
It's just a matter of an implied mechanic that's never addressed by the book. I just want it be addressed, is all. Thanks for that.
>>43945001
Karachki's shield. That was the last one. Impressive piece, that.
Don't know whether to feel sorry for shop that has to outfit a new one of those. Must be expensive.
>>43945001
>pike and shot
>few shields
People really don't want to play as the biggest badasses of the era, Rodeleros?
That's a shame.
>>43945681
Everybody loves a landschneckt.
EVERY BODY
>>43945716
A landwhat?
>>43945787
These guys.
>>43945716
You sure? Really, really sure?
>>43945815
>lose a battle
>fly away to safety
Genius.
>>43945816
Sacking Rome is a traditional past time for the Germans, I tell you what.
>>43945816
Everybody that matters.
Posting best baboon girl.
>>43942121
Well, space jews I'd guess.
>>43947494
>Everybody that matters.
The dogs piss on us and we have to say it is raining...
So I'm just very loosely following SoS.
Am I right, that they are working on planes rightnow instead of making the other races playable?
>>43950134
Which other races?
>>43950174
Wait, are the not!elves and shit now playable? I think in the last version I looked at (~1.9.6) there was written that they are not completely playable or something.
>>43950134
Basically they've gotten the rules to the point where they can base the kickstarter on them, but the final draft is currently stuck in editing hell while the editor is frolicking around somewhere in Straya. So with that more or less out of their hands, Jimmy is passing the time by doing planes and spacewhales.
>>43950206
Nigga, they ain't not!Elves, they're elves.
But yes.
>>43948925
>>43950240
>>43950260
Alright thanks. I seem to be retardet from time to time.
>>43950206
The three original varieties of elves are properly playable and reasonably balanced now, the fourth kind of elf is mostly implemented as well, and three varieties of ascended are in there as well.
>>43950292
Well, you did say you were only loosely following SoS.
>>43950280
>>43948925
So who's the big guy? Karachki?
>>43956286
That looks like a Sarturi, what with the blood magic and all.
Disregard this.
Jimmy's asleep, post shields.
Maybe that was Karachki before Gizka turned him. It'd explain why she hates him, he's already killed like three of her clone-girlfriends.
>>43956286
Does Linko have percussion cap pistols?
>>43956286
>person pointing at the giant threat while looking at the viewer
Every single fucking image
every one every single one does this
Stop
>>43960589
>only Gizka looking at the viewer
What.
I'm more concerned with the fact that Gizka looks like donkey dung.
>Wanted to do surprise CotV Fecht based on Miami Shootout
>Fucking SoCalis decide to shoot up a disabled peoples' clinic
I'm multiple stacked layers of pissed the fuck off, because I spent five years being one of those assholes who got shot.
>>43960213
They're supposed to be flintlocks (which are still super-advanced for this era) but unfortunately it's hard to find artists who are tremendously skilled in depicting various premodern firing mechanisms, so they do look like percussion-cap hammers, yes.
>>43961084
I think she looks a bit long in the face, but it's not wrong, exactly. The armor fidelity is excellent. Also notice, this is Gizka pre-facial scar, and definitely pre-Tiber Father Tiber.
>>43961084
>What
Look at any art fantasy or sci-fi where there's a bunch of people fighting or disgusted by a Big Thing. There is always one person looking at the viewer while pointing at the Big Thing.
>>43961355
Oh, I thought you were saying every single person was pointing at the threat in this picture.
It's just an effective composition, that's all.
>>43961381
It is the McDonald's of fantasy art.
>>43961190
I actually go to school in San Bernardino.
The one thing that could've gotten San Bernardino in the news is a mass shooting, regular shootings just dont shock enough to stay in people's memory for very long.
Fucking hate this place. Wish I could move.
>>43949079
Don't worry on that regard. The Space Nazi's have a contract with E.A.S.Y. that unmade the Space Jews so that none exist anymore, their culture is completely removed or re-attributed and their very names are gone from their universe's lexicon.
>>43961512
What is this EASY, and do they do ex-wives?
>>43961798
Elder Abominable Space Yetis?
>>43961798
Isn't easy people doing her the reason she's your ex-wife in the first place?
>>43961830
>>43961512
The Orredin fucking glassed the buggers.
>>43961990
>tfw the Jews have been destroyed in both CotV AND SoS
Connection?
>>43962014
No. Prediction.
>>43962014
There is one.
>>43962101
>not CotV planes in CotV
>>43962101
>6E Skyrim
>>43962109
Are you trying to tell me laser whales have wings and are basically traditional dragons?
>>43962025
>>43962030
>>43962014
>tfw the SoS fandom is a bunch of Nazis, Jews, Socialists and Ancaps united solely by their desire to stab people in the dick
This is some Chaos Undivided level shit here. The fact that these threads still exist is nothing short of a miracle.
>>43962151
Don't forget us Socialist Ancap Jews.
You know that saying; "through dick, unity"?
It applies to *stabbing* things in the dick, too.
>>43962151
And in the background, the distant harmony of accordions.
>>43962186
>Serbposting
This brings me back.
>>43961798
Not at all difficult. Just knock on the door and pay the terrible price. Chrion paid for a significant amount of people, for just one pitiable woman it shouldn't be too much for a country to bear.
did anyone else here catch the Ratko fecht? That shit was kind of messed up.
>>43962439
The one that happened a while ago? And had a confrontation in a mine? Was there another?
>>43962151
now you just need several more miracles and the game may actually get finished
>>43945681
We had orange juice lover.
Which show's better; Sharpe or Hornblower?
>>43961355
I think she's *supposed* to be yelling at the troops.
>>43963213
Now that's a legitimately hard question. Both certainly have that unf-factor with their protagonists.
>>43966220
Guess I'll go with Hornblower then.
>>43966220
Does hornblower also have a burly Irishman with a volley gun or a villain as great as hakeswill? If not then it's inferior.
>>43968373
He has a stutter.
>>43968373
He's got Lieutenant Bush, who has a ridiculously deep voice, and he once served under Jon Irenicus.
Enjoy some Mamluk goodness, courtesy of the Beeb:
>http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06qcs6w#play
>>43962439
Ratko? The little shit who lost everything, went out in a blaze of glory, and ended up on the solar ziggurat with the loving wife he beat to death?
>>43962459
>>43970789
The guy with the poleaxe and the helmet. Fucked a Zell. Killed a bunch of traitors.
>>43971267
Oh, the bishi gargoyle!
Yeah, that was proper fucked. Dude rules though.
>>43962459
That was Vlatko Vlatkovic, the Crow.
Thought you guys might like a look at some reproduction coats of plates made after finds at the mass-graves outside Wisby
http://www.hoashantverk.se/hantverk/hoas_rustningar/index.html
Chapter 9.1 boasts "over 150 weapons". There are 21 different kinds of knives, 57 swords, 28 'blunt' weapons, 43 spears, and over twenty varieties of ranged weaponry.
Why is this necessary? Are the differences between a Dirk, Kukri, and Stiletto so important that they deserve their own separate stat blocks? What value, if any, would be lost by reducing the list of Daggers to two or three, or even to a single weapon?
>>43972195
I think it is necessary because this is exactly what i always wanted, there are very few times you know you are the first stage, early adopter of the target audience, I know I am for SoS and the diffrence between a kukri and a stiletto i fuggin huge irl mate
tl:dr we're spergy little shits and we love it that's why it's neciseary
>>43972195
I fear you may not be in this games target audience friend.
>Dirk
Mostly thrusting weapon with some cutting capability, longer than most daggers but not quite a sword either.
>Kukri
Cutting weapon that can deliver terrible wounds dispite it's small size.
>Stiletto
Narrow thrusting weapon designed to defeat plate and deliver killing blows to downed opponents.
Really you picked three very different weapons.
>>43972195
We're playing and making an RPG whose combat is principally a dueling system, and one that is meant to model most anything found in Europe and the near east through the middle ages (as of the core book). Part of trying to accurately model these martial arts is actually differentiating the various arms used by the cultures and peoples through the mechanics, and trying to structure these mechanics in such a way that players will organically make many of the same decisions as historical warriors did.
The differences between the needle like misericorde, the broad cinquedea, and the common bollock dagger are all *very* relevant to this process.
Why have all these different weapons?
Because that's exactly the point of the system.
>>43972428
>tl:dr we're spergy little shits and we love it that's why it's neciseary
Different strokes for different folks I guess. It still doesn't make it good game design.
>>43972439
>Really you picked three very different weapons.
Pic related. The kukri's curved, so it might be more of a slashing weapon as opposed to piercing, but come on, 'three very different weapons'? A mace and a spear are very different weapons. A Dirk and a Stiletto are almost identical.
>>43972473
>We're playing and making an RPG whose combat is principally a dueling system, and one that is meant to model most anything found in Europe and the near east through the middle ages (as of the core book).
Sure, that's a laudable goal.
>Part of trying to accurately model these martial arts is actually differentiating the various arms used by the cultures and peoples through the mechanics, and trying to structure these mechanics in such a way that players will organically make many of the same decisions as historical warriors did.
>The differences between the needle like misericorde, the broad cinquedea, and the common bollock dagger are all *very* relevant to this process.
But what VALUE does this give your system? How does representing twenty-one different knives with nearly identical statistics and qualities improve your game? What critical elements would be lost by consolidating these weapons into two or three categories of knives?
>>43972195
>Are the differences between a Dirk, Kukri, and Stiletto so important that they deserve their own separate stat blocks?
Yes.
>>43973154
Granularity isn't bad game design or good game design, it's just game design, and in some cases it can be beneficial, in others it can detract from the overall quality of the game.
My case for why it is a good thing this time is simple: Most of the how a character fights and what they can do--basically their "class" in more gamey terms, is determined by their weapons.
So a character with a saber is very focused on the cut, whereas one with a rapier is very focused on the thrust. Mechanically this is a real difference, because cuts have Power Attack and can do more damage, while Thrusts have their initiative bonus, and so favor daring initiative tricks.
Different weapons combine different utilities to create different combat styles. As such, having many of them that are mechanically distinct crates more options. More options means more space for player mechanical creativity. This space is important in any game, and in SoS it is mostly found in choice of armament and talents.
Daggers probably benefit the least from this granularity since they're reserve weapons and ultimately they're too useless for their stats to really matter, but if they did the same thing with swords, maces, spears and polearms but then just ignored daggers it would be conspicuous.
In other words, the options provided by the detailed weapons and their variety makes the game more fun than if weapons were limited to a few broad options.
>>43973154
>The kukri's curved, so it might be more of a slashing weapon as opposed to piercing, but come on, 'three very different weapons'?
>The kukri's curved, so it might be
>it might be
You clearly don't know much about historical weapons. A kukri is very different from a stiletto. They're used in different contexts and in different ways. To argue otherwise is to argue over the definition of "very", and that will lead to nothing.
>But what VALUE does this give your system? How does representing twenty-one different knives with nearly identical statistics and qualities improve your game? What critical elements would be lost by consolidating these weapons into two or three categories of knives?
This is like asking what value a wargame system has in representing 21 different types of tanks instead of consolidating them into just two types. They are different weapons, they are used differently. Song of Swords is a game about historical weapons and armor. Different weapons were used in different periods of time, in different regions around the world. They were not the same; we do not need to treat them the same. What value does reducing the list to two or three weapons have? That sacrifices detail for simplicity. This sacrifice is a design choice and is one that virtually every other roleplaying game makes. If you want to play a game that has only a couple types of assault rifles to cover all assault rifles, or only a few swords to cover all swords, go play one of those. There are dozens of them. But if you want particular weapons from across history represented in some detail, with some meaningful differences, you can play Song of Swords.
>>43973154
First damaged shields, now this. Can't wait to see what so-called problems you complain about next.
>>43973400
There is no reason to presume that those are the same people. It's a legitimate question and it deserves a legitimate answer.
>>43973418
>There is no reason to presume that those are the same people.
Sure there is, they write the same and it's on a similar subject matter in a similar section of the rulebook.
>It's a legitimate question and it deserves a legitimate answer.
No one said it wasn't or didn't.
>>43973418
Also, it's discussion that keeps things alive until the Second Coming of Christ and, shortly after, the Kickstarter.
>>43973893
That's true, on topic discussion is better than none.
>>43973351
Finally, a reasonable answer! Thank you! I really appreciate it.
Granularity can be good. I'm solidly in the camp of game design that thinks anything extraneous or unnecessary should be removed. If you can do the same job with fewer mechanics / equipment / book space then you absolutely should.
I'm not sold on the idea that all these knives are really that different, or that they need different stat blocks. I don't see why 21 options is better than 2-3 options when the differences between them are negligible. More options do not, in fact, lead to more mechanical creativity, not of the options are interchangeable.
>>43973379
>You clearly don't know much about historical weapons.
No, I don't. Should I have to be an expert on historical weapons and armour in order to enjoy your game? That sounds like pretty bad game design to me.
>What value does reducing the list to two or three weapons have? That sacrifices detail for simplicity. This sacrifice is a design choice and is one that virtually every other roleplaying game makes.
Maybe you should be asking why all those game designers make that design choice. Perhaps the answer is because huge tables of weapons doesn't add much (or anything) to the game.
>If you want to play a game that has only a couple types of assault rifles to cover all assault rifles, or only a few swords to cover all swords, go play one of those. There are dozens of them. But if you want particular weapons from across history represented in some detail, with some meaningful differences, you can play Song of Swords.
Fair enough. If you're making a niche product, you have to accept that it's niche and that it won't appeal to the majority. That's fair. It still doesn't make my problems with the system any less justified.
>>43973400
I think you're confusing me with someone else.
>>43974320
>No, I don't. Should I have to be an expert on historical weapons and armour in order to enjoy your game? That sounds like pretty bad game design to me.
>implying law of excluded middle
Don't strawman so hard. No one said you had to be an expert to enjoy the game. Your question only clearly shows you don't know much about it. Hopefully this inspires you to learn more about them.
>Maybe you should be asking why all those game designers make that design choice. Perhaps the answer is because huge tables of weapons doesn't add much (or anything) to the game.
I literally just said why they make that choice.
>That sacrifices detail for simplicity.
The answer is that most games out there are not trying to accurately recreate HEMA combat, so they can make that sacrifice and still achieve their design goals.
>It still doesn't make my problems with the system any less justified.
A "justified" problem? You're "justified" to have any problem you like with anything in the world. You thinking that what you see is a problem, however, doesn't mean it actually is one. Now you should understand why there are so many weapons in the game.
>>43974538
>Don't strawman so hard
You're right, I was fallacious there. I apologize. Here's a different, more valid complaint. If the vast armoury of 150+ historically acurate weapons is one of the game's selling points, and "No one said you had to be an expert to enjoy the game", then why are there literally ZERO descriptions or images of these weapons in the book? Why aren't there paragraph-long descriptions of the weapon's unique characteristics, historical use, and at least some justification for their attributes? The lack of art I can forgive given that the art is in separate folders for now, but why don't weapons get the same treatment that types of armour receive?
Contrary to what you might think, I'm not shitting on this game. I'm trying to improve it. If simplification isn't on the table, at least make it easier for novices to understand WHAT these weapons are and WHY they're all different.
>>43975037
It's still in beta, man. The final product will have a shit ton of descriptions and probably a few less of the out of era weapons like falx and all the different ge and yumi.
>>43975792
Yari. I meant Yari.
Hive lore pls Jimmy-chan
>>43975792
Well then, sounds to me like something the devs should really get working on for the next version of the rules. Best of luck to them.
>>43975856
No, I want to finally finish that fecht instead.
>>43976273
The two are not mutually exclusive friendo
>>43975891
That is exactly what the finished product will be.
>>43975037
We are working on that description list, but because it's non-essential to play, we figured it could wait until later. We've estimated its size, it's going to have to be pretty huge. Still, we are committed to producing that.
>>43975856
Incoming.
>>43976273
The Tanner Fecht? So it shall be. Perhaps not tonight, but before the end of the week.
>>43975037
I've been intermittently trying to write up a guide to the different weapons, so that people know what everything is while Jimmy is in the midst of writing the real guide. Once Finals are over, I may have time to complete it.
So, in the vein of the latest discussion: does anyone have a problem with the extremely narrow range of viable TNs, where 7 is average, 6 is almost OP and 8 is complete shit.
>>43974320
They're all reasonable. You just disagree with them.
>I'm solidly in the camp
There's your problem. You're unable to understand that both have their situational strengths and weaknesses. In this case, it would be a massive failure, as one of the major points of the game is allowing you to use this variety of weapons. Simplification *is* bad, minimalism *would not work*. I fully support the removal of anything not directly useful to the game. This is directly useful to the game.
>>43975037
They're planning on doing that. This is a known problem.
>>43975891
Kickstarter never.
>>43978488
Never, ever trust your life on a TN higher than 7 has been the mantra since day one. I don't think it's a huge issue, but some of the TN8 weapons could do with a few buffs to give them abilities that make up for being kind of shit, though. Like some damage increases, or special rules. I kind of miss when crushing weapons were harder to parry. The balance was kind of fucked, but I felt like it was a good sentiment to make those puny TN6 weapons a bit harder to use on a real battlefield against things like a halberd or other polearms.
>>43978568
>I don't think it's a huge issue
When a good chunk of the weapons in the system is essentially unusable, I think it's a pretty big issue.
>>43978778
It's not really an issue because the perception of "never trust TN 8" is mostly unfounded. It's a psychological thing, statistically TN 8 isn't really that bad, particularly if the weapon has good damage modifiers.
>>43978925
Never Trust TN8 is absolutely true, but only when you're talking about defensive rolls. A better way to phrase it is "Never Trust TN8 alone to save your life." You have much more leeway on the offense, whereas when defending you really want one or more of: a TN7 or better parry weapon, the ability to lower your void TN without huge fatigue costs, or armor that's good enough that your TN8 defense is adequate.
>>43979049
Though this also assumes a relative worst-case scenario where all your opponents have a TN7 weapon that's powerful enough to go through your armour. I mean sure, it's probably a good idea to be a bit pessimistic since your life may depend on it, but depending on the particular setting or campaign it may well be that most of what you'll be up against may be relatively average (i.e. not very strong) enemies wielding unoptimised weapons while you're at least partially in metal armour.
Are shotguns really as bad against armor as they are in CotV? The halving effect makes it almost impossible to hurt people with shot if they have even basic armor.
>>43980137
Shot is low-velocity, low-weight, and obviously not optimized for penetration. A deer slug might work, but obviously a bunch of little pellets aren't going to penetrate armor well.
>>43980137
Depends on a number of factors, but individually a given shot pellet really doesn't carry all that much energy. Assuming the relative standard of a 12 gauge 00 buckshot load, each pellet carries somewhere around 270 joules of energy. That's about as much as a particularly feisty .22 LR round and about half of what even just 9x19 mm has. So unless you're dealing with a particularly brittle armouring material that would crack from having all pellets hit the same general area, you're generally better off going with slugs instead.
>>43980137
Shotguns were never intended to pierce armor, and without specialized ammunition, generally they won't.
>>43973154
"good game design" that is a very contextual word my friend and SoS is a very niche product.
Look at Dwarf fortress for instance it contains so much things that would be considered shit design for a mainstream game but it is really good there because it is addressing a small niche market
I have been told multiple times that the most important thing in game design is the market. So, if the niche market you are selling to want to have "bad" minstream game design then it might not actually be bad for that particular case, SoS is not trying to be DnD or even Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, It is in many ways trying hard to NOT be those, it is very niche and has found an audience
>>43979645
>a good idea to be a bit pessimistic since your life may depend on it
You can't value your life too much
>>43978778
>>43978925
While it's true TN 8 is statistically better than we believe and joke about, the stark differences between TNs has been seen as something to be improved upon for many years. That's why the Bovine people swapped to d12s. It gives more granularity.
How do you mechanically represent a long staredown between two samurai?
>>43983654
blue/blue
>>43983561
They should have swapped to d20. d12 makes too small a difference.
>>43983654
Both throwing blue for several rounds
>>43983847
Dicepool with d20 would be hard, you could fit like three in a dice cup.
>>43983847
d100 is the best if you don't mind digital dice
>>43983847
Don't think I don't see you, Supplamentalist. Get thee behind me, Satan.
>>43983561
Then again they barely seemed to capitalise on it. Outside of a few exceptions, most weapons weapons still ended up falling in a band of the same 3-4 TNs. They mostly just upped the usual amount of successes for all of them.
If nothing else, d10s do have the advantage that it's very intuitive to estimate relative chances of success per TN as well as expected average successes for a given roll.
>>43984617
B A S E T W E L V E
>>43986299
reeeee
>>43984617
Not to be cynical, but I always assumed that the actual reason behind the switch to D12 was to create the illusion that BotIT was something other than a direct clone of Riddle of Steel.
>>43983654
Two guys throwing Blue/Blue over and over again, trying to psyche each other out until one or both snap and throw Red.
>>43989809
Same here
>>43990953
Wouldn't there be a Willpower or a Charisma check, or maybe an pseudo-intimidation check in there too?
>>43991225
This animu crap is not covered by rules. In TRoS you could make Ridicule skill check to mock the other guy and provoke his attack. Wit/Ridicule versus Willpower..
>>43991860
>>43991225
There are intimidation rolls to prevent your enemy from throwing red. That's already in there.
>>43983654
Blue/Blue for as many rounds as desired
>>43991860
>>43991986
So SoS has a thing to stop them from throwing red, but not to stop them from throwing blue. Two men could blue/blue for all eternity.
>>43993099
I see. SoS became anime after all.
>>43983926
>Not using your large manly hands to cup and throw dice
>>43983926
Hypothetically, if we used a d20 dice pool system, what TNs would things have?
>>43996249
I would guess 12-16, ish?
>>43993099
>Two men could blue/blue for all eternity.
Seem reasonable enough to me. Not everyone's cut out to launch himself at the guy sticking a pointy piece of metal his way.
>>43996346
Oh, speaking of which, does anyone have a link to that one clip from a Kurosawa movie where two people run into that exact problem of not wanting to get near the other guy's sword?
Swiped from the desk of Jimmy Rome.
Space-Americans are this settings' Orcs. A bold commentary, or bad prose? You be the judge.
>>43996249
11-17
>>43997599
What is it with Jimmy and teeth?
>>43997668
It's an oral fixation, and not the sexy kind.
