Should Good-aligned paladins kill sentient, intelligent things?
>>43875796
If they're evil, why not?
They should try to avoid it, but no reason it's anathema or anything.
>>43875796
If they ping on Detect Evil, sure.
Also, you don't kill things, you sunder them.
>>43875796
Good-aligned anything shouldn't kill anyone.
>>43875813
>>43875823
If it's intelligent and aware, they can be rehabilitated, no?
>>43875796
If there's no altrernative, yes.
Good is positive energy.
Too much positive energy is harmful.
Therefore, too much Good is harmful.
Therefore, sometimes you have to introduce Evil/Negative energy to counter the Good/Positive Energy, or remove some Good.
>>43875796
If they're evil, yes.
>>43875836
Leave the redemption to the clerics, novice.
>>43875836
They will be rehabilitated in hell
>>43875796
Pointless argument starter.jpg
>>43875891
I'm not sure you understood the question...
>>43875836
Not according to the metaphysics of the Alignment System.
Evil creatures are Evil. As in with a capital E. They were born Evil and they are only capable of Evil. Killing them is a Good act.
No it doesn't make sense. Yes it's absolutist to the point of being ridiculous. But complaints about the 3x3 alignment metaphysics are hardly new.
>>43875926
Go back to your quest thread, then.
This soft-and-slimy, SJW-pandering degeneracy has gone uncountered too often. Time for some words from the master:
"Paladins are not stupid, and in general there is no rule of Lawful Good against killing enemies. The old adage about nits making lice applies. Also, as I have often noted, a paladin can freely dispatch prisoners of Evil alignment that have surrendered and renounced that alignment in favor of Lawful Good. They are then sent on to their reward before they can backslide.
>>43875997
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is by no means anything but Lawful and Good. Prisoners guilty of murder or similar capital crimes can be executed without violating any precept of the alignment. Hanging is likely the usual method of such execution, although it might be beheading, strangulation, etc. A paladin is likely a figure that would be considered a fair judge of criminal conduct.
The Anglo-Saxon punishment for rape and/or murder of a woman was as follows: tearing off of the scalp, cutting off of the ears and nose, blinding, chopping off of the feet and hands, and leaving the criminal beside the road for all bypassers to see. I don't know if they cauterized the limb stumps or not before doing that. It was said that a woman and child could walk the length and breadth of England without fear of molestation then...
>>43875968
>make a really really vague statement
>get defensive when someone calls it out for being so vague that it literally is nothing but a pointless argument starter
Quest threads are shit, but you managed to make something worse than them.
So in answer to your question, yes. In specific circumstances that you never bothered to specify.
>>43876018
Chivington might have been quoted as saying "nits make lice," but he is certainly not the first one to make such an observation as it is an observable fact. If you have read the account of wooden Leg, a warrior of the Cheyenne tribe that fought against Custer et al., he dispassionately noted killing an enemy squaw for the reason in question.
I am not going to waste my time and yours debating ethics and philosophy. I will state unequivocally that in the alignment system as presented in OAD&D, an eye for an eye is lawful and just, Lawful Good, as misconduct is to be punished under just laws.
>>43875945
>>43875891
Different Anon.
He means yes. Sometimes it takes one bad egg to ruin the bunch. In this case, we crack that egg upon the counter of righteousness.
>>43876018
>paying evil unto evil is lawful good
You are insane
>>43875997
>Also, as I have often noted, a paladin can freely dispatch prisoners of Evil alignment that have surrendered and renounced that alignment in favor of Lawful Good. They are then sent on to their reward before they can backslide.
Not a DM, but if I was that would be something for which I would make the paladin fall so fast they would leave a crater. It reminds me of witch-drowning logic
>>43876047
Lawful Neutrality countenances malign laws. Lawful Good does not.
Mercy is to be displayed for the lawbreaker that does so by accident. Benevolence is for the harmless. Pacifism in the fantasy milieu is for those who would be slaves. They have no place in determining general alignment, albeit justice tempered by mercy is a NG manifestation, whilst well-considered benevolence is generally a mark of Good."
-Gary Gygax, 2005
Don't worry anon, in your game those mean patriarchs with their quirky hangups and phallic substitutes can still be NE.
>>43876076
>>43876089
Welcome to the mainstream Western morality that built the civilization you were born into.
>>43875796
>sentient, intelligent things
I believe the word you're looking for is "sapient"
better question:
Why are you following a silly god that cares whether or not the evil you smite is sapient or not?
>>43875796
If they have given them a chance to turn themselves in and it has been declined, then yes, by all means.
>>43875796
Not if they can possibly avoid it. At least how I play them. The slaughter mindset of all evil things I save for holy knights and other no-think killers. Paladins always try to find a solution before violence.
But guess what? D&D is boring garbage and I don't play it.
>>43876116
You forgot to tip your fedora
If evil, smite.
It's as easy as that
>>43875796
It's their job. You're a soldier of God. One doesn't teach a hammer to love nails.
>>43875796
If they're planning a killing spree, no. Arrest them.
If they're actively on a killing spree, and an arrest can be made without any additional loss of life, no.
If they're actively on a killing spree, and they must be killed to stop additional death, no.
If they've been taken prisoner, no.
If they've been taken prisoner, have undergone a trial, and have gone free, no.
If they begin killing again, yes.
If they start posting stupid questions on /tg/ or making stupid comments about how good is evil and bad is good and the West is inherently the greatest evil, yes.
>all these fucking plebs
>paladins serve gods!
>don't even read The Complete Paladin's Handbook
>don't even realize that Paladins serve abstract concepts
>don't even realize that Paladins are not beholden to anything or anyone except for true good
>shiggy diggy doo
>>43876166
>>43876270
Third line should be yes, my apologies.
>>43875836
Rehabilitate if possible, Kill if not possible
My Pally gives them the chance to surrender and repent at the beginning of the fight. Not after it.
Unless they really, really look like they're about to cry, because that would be bullying.
>>43876325
>My Pally gives them the chance to surrender
>exactly 5 seconds to comply.jpg
>>43875836
Why waste time rehabilitating? You could kill like 100 evil creatures in the time it takes to fix 1.
>>43876089
Sounds like someone can't deal with Justice
>>43876353
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acdABwYJqks
>>43876446
Well, the two are not mutually exclusive.
Hell, you can rehabilitate them by making them assist you in killing of other evils.
>>43876281
Nobody understands paladins, everybody thinks they understand paladins and thus shits on everything for their own poor interpretation. No source or setting is specified so everyone might as well be speaking about their own shitty headcanon. Everyone talks past each other, nobody agrees on everything, and everything devolves into shitposting.
Anyway, Paladins are unreasonable, unwavering NO FUN assholes who work for elemental Good but don't actually serve good because they serve elemental Law but don't because they break and twist the rules all the time and fall because of their choices but don't because of mechanical reasons but do because they encounter Catch-22 choices without alternative from shitty GMs but don't because their personal belief in their code and actually do but don't serve good or law dogmatically because they enforce the best or worst parts of Good and Law but don't actually do either because they just serve their God's own religious tenets but don't because they serve abstract concepts instead and wear armor and use swords or don't wear armor and use guns or use guns and armor and swords and maces and shields and maybe a pike but not at all and use divine magic or don't which is divine magic or not magic at all or is belief or not belief or just regular magic from a different source or exactly the same but different and maybe eldritch or not.
>>43875796
It should not be your first recourse, but there's no good reason to make them pacifists.
Sometimes the Dark Lord Despotic doesn't want to talk, doesn't have any seep seated childhood trauma you can heal, and must be killed to save thousands of innocent lives.
>>43875796
I've always thought D&D's alignment system was shallow and silly. I've considered swapping out Evil and Good with Cruelty and Mercy to let players make a more meaningful choice when they pick alignments, one that reflects how their character tends to react to problems, rather than simply which direction they're swinging their sword.
I think that anyone who thinks "Good" should mean anything less than kind-hearted is fucking off their rocker. A truly good-aligned paladin should seek redemption for all but the very most corrupt foes, using destruction as a last resort after mercy. A paladin who acts any other way is just a zealous, crusading smite-knight who believes their deity can justify their slaughter.
>>43876666
This man right here.
>>43876306
rich coming from the god emperor of mankind
>Not playing CN Paladins
Go away
>>43875832
Unless it is totally unavoidable, this.
>>43875948
>No it doesn't make sense
That is because we as humans have no grasp of this concept, as it does not exist in our world, unless you are a religious person who believes it exists beyond our direct perceptions.
>>43876076
Good and evil are only points of view, anon.
I always spend my first round of fighting telling enemies to surrender now, and that I can offer them a new life if they stop being criminals.
All the people working in my mine are former caravan raiders and orcs.
>>43876673
The alignment system dates back to when only entities filled with an exceptional pull towards the good and evil forces of the world were considered aligned. The "average joe" murderers and charity givers (and everyone inbetween) may be judged on a good-evil scale decided by the society surrounding them, but none of them are /aligned/ with the definite forces of good or evil.
As per usual with these things, the meaning changed into an unrecognizable mess in due time.
>>43875796
If they're evil. All this "but if you kill, you're as evil as they are!" is bullshit. You're using deadly force to protect those who can't protect themselves. It's noble and righteous. It's a heavy, difficult burden, but the world is a better place for it.
>>43876629
Shit man that's great idea.
I can Greater Geas some convicts to hunt down other lawbreakers. Bandit problem solved in no time!
>>43875796
Just because you are good it doesn't mean you are a nice person.
>>43876076
Punishing the wicked isn't evil tho
Evil is created when one soul gives up on another.
To kill your target is to give up on them.
>>43877377
You're one of those faggots that try to "redeem" Succubi, aren't you?
>>43877427
>succubi
>souls
>>43877377
Justice is to return unto a man what he is rightfully due.
To slay a murderer is to be just.
>>43877445
Succubi, like all Demons and Devils, are literally nothing BUT souls, you cunt.
>>43875948
you do know that the only creatures evil by default and unable of naturally changing alignment are extraplanars right?
you do very rarely get a risen fiend who is shown the error of there way and truly wishes to repent
>>43878170
Source on the comic?
>>43876076
I'm pretty sure there's a quote talking about good and justice being crazy. And I'm almost certain it was a 40k Thought of the Day quote.
>>43875796
Why would that be a problem?
Good doesn't mean stupid.
I can be good and still make an example of that evil guy by killing him so hard everyone will be dissuaded to attack innocents again.
What's more, always remember that's there's a difference between the Law, and Justice.
The being can be sentient, that makes him even more responsible for his acts.
>>43877960
>filename not WoDhammer_40k
>>43878620
Forgot my picture.
>>43877309
Two wrongs don't make a right.
>>43876076
Gygax's definition of Lawful Good was that it was half-good and half-lawful. Meaning that they dilute each other. Someone who is Lawful Good is less good than someone who is Neutral Good.
>>43875836
Kill them all, God will recognise his own.
[/spoiler] I love medieval [/spoiler]
>>43875891
Positive energy isn't good, negative energy isn't evil. 'less you're on about some custom setting or something, in which case ignore me
>applying real life morality to D&D's alignment system
This shit never works, ever. Stop doing it.
>>43879495
And the reason for not applying actual morals to a morality system is..?
Depends on the teachings of their deity. You know, Ezekiel 25:17 and shit.
>>43879787
The alignment system contributes to the feel of the game. Applying a different morality system alters that.
>>43879787
Actual morals are too complex to fit D&D classification.
The same way actual swordfighting would be too complex to fit "roll To Hit vs Armor Class" system.
Any issue that comes up would be fixed by just not playing DnD. This isn't a meme, everyone knows the way DnD handles alignments is retarded.
Why is Mind Rape considered an evil spell? Why is it evil to force 5 years of rehabilitation and redemption on somebody with one simple level 9 spell?
>>43880329
>Why is Mind Rape considered an evil spell?
>>43875796
Sometimes, just like police
>>43875948
This is utter bullshit. You're thinking of the evil subtype
>>43880462
Yeah, but paladins have to answer to someone.I'll see myself out.
>>43877377
That means a lot coming from a filthy harem accepter.
>>43875796
This is why you should just play a fighter like a paladin
>>43878464
Not sure, but if I had to guess I'd say Prince Valiant.
>>43882316
It is.
>>43877927
and yet everything about that is still completely dumb
>>43875796
Same answer as any good-aligned adventurer. Don't kill when you don't have to. When you do, do it properly.
>>43881436
I do that, sadly it never ends well.
>1st round to disarm the enemy and give him a chance to surrender and or leave the combat.
>party members proceed to erase said unarmed enemy from existence.
>try to capture foes for questioning and offer redemption.
>party executes the few surviving gagged foes in orderly fashion.
I know it's my fault for making such a no-fun idealistic character, and playing D&D, but as a newbie I thought combats and fictional people's deaths could be avoided if possible. Good thing there are plenty of taverns around so my PC can drink his sorrows and gripes away.
>>43875836
See, let me point out something.
A Paladin cannot live, constantly, in what 'might have been'. He cannot know that this evil guy will repent his ways and becoming a saint, if he's spared. Similarly, he's not responsible if the orphan he raises turns out to be a dark knight who murders millions. All he can focus on now is the here and now. In law, we call that 'reasonable liability'.
You aren't responsible for the 'ripple effect' of your actions beyond what you could reasonably predict. Hence, the Paladin isn't under a compulsion to try and redeem everyone.
I'll add: Evil means you're a bad, bad man. Assuming you're going by D&D rules, who's really evil? People of more than 5 HD, which means they're a threat. Worshippers of an evil God. Undead, who are powered by negative energy. Demons, who are made of evil. Being greedy, emo, or an asshole doesn't make you evil: Evil is the woman who keeps a combat knife in her cupboard next to photos of young men. Evil is a child-molestor, or a group of jihadis planning their next attack.
If you can detect someone as Evil, you should watch the fuck out around him. Detect Evil would be useless if EVERYONE pinged evil: Think of it as a Geiger counter, which tells you "Holy shit, this guy is crackling with Evil. There's something deeply wrong with him."
Paladins act. They're not frozen with constant indecision over what might have been. At the end of the day, you do what good you can - Do you really want to spend all that time saving ONE soul, when you could save THOUSANDS? You're just a man, after all - you're not God. There's so little of you to go around, you need to be efficient about it.
>>43876076
It's the Word of Gygax, heretic. The Word from On High.
>>43882848
So, acting in the now, given the choice between saving one close loved one and 1000 innocent strangers, what do you choose following your own system?
>>43875796
Depends on what said sentient, intelligent things are doing.
>>43883003
As myself, I'd save the loved one. I don't give a shit about strangers.
But as a Paladin? I'd be tormented about it, but I'll save the 1000 innocents. Shit, man: That's what God gave you powers for. To make the impossible choices, and to suffer impossibly.
>>43882848
What if said evil worshipers still have some humanity and good within them? they still pinged evil though.
I'm kinda facing that kind of NPC's right now and killing them all after "saving" their children doesn't feel right, if not for them, for their childs.
>>43875836
There is none of that, "Oh well if you're truly sorry, there's nothing I can do." horseshit. No, he coup de graces your ass because he's a goddamn paladin. His job is killing evil. You know what his job doesn't entail? Being a sympathetic ear for every whiny NE or CN or LE douchebag who's only being evil because the world is unfair to him or every punk that lets his own dislikes or laziness overcome his own personality. You know what unfair is? Being able to know what kind of person everyone is before you even talk to them. Smelling evil so potent on a motherfucker that you want to sink your fingers in his chest and pull that tar out until the screaming stops. Having the psychotic urge to murder people that you've never even met, for the sole reason that your God decided that you ought to be his right hand without your choice in the matter, that's unfair.
But unlike Evil McBlacknails over there, that Paladin puts on his helmet, sharpens his sword, and then continues walking through crowds of people day by day, resisting the urge. Seeing evidence of injustice so black it makes him sick. Seeing murderers and rapists walk the street, watching good men hang as evil ones pull the lever. Saving his righteous violence for when the situation exactly, specifically, precisely calls for it. Surgically removing that which is most evil. Because he's a Paladin. And if he gave in to the urge, what would he be? Who will right the true wrongs if not he? It's not about not falling as a Paladin. It's about falling so fucking hard you crash through the planet and stand up on the other side.'
>>43883042
You still kill them. No-one is ever completely evil, the same way no one is ever completely good. But if their dark side is paramount and they're in your way, you'd better kill them.
I mean, why are you fighting them right now? Because they're about to do something genuinely horrible. You're not fighting them because you really like fighting, you're fighting them because they're obstacles. Think about it this way: The burden on their souls is FAR LESS than what it would be if they succeeded in their plan.
>>43883003
This situation is impossible.
>>43883108
It literally isn't.
>>43883092
I don't even know why I'm fighting them, they were being controlled to be not-evil by some dude but the party killed said dude thinking he was evil before he could explain. then they stopped being not-evil and tried to murder us.
>the burden on their souls is FAR LESS than what it would be if they succeeded in their plan
This seems like a good way to think about it though, once I know what their plan is of course.
>>43875796
Sometimes a nigga gotta get got, you dig?
>>43883003
Well in all the super hero movies they try their damnest to save both.
That's really the only right answer regardless of how adamant the villain is.
>>43876666
>that pic
mysides.jpg
>>43875796
>>43875796
If those sentient beings are evil and cannot be rehabilitated than yes.
>>43883284
So how do you proioritize?
>>43884102
>*prioritize
I must be sleepy.
But for real though, how do you choose who to save first? What if it has to be an instant choice?
>>43883060
10/10 righteous post
>>43884153
Good, because I took it from someone else.
>>43884356
Still a fine pasta.
>>43875836
The Paladin's Code deals in punishing those who harm innocents, not in rehabilitation.
If they got atonement, the paladin should still punish them. Paladins care about justice. They care about protecting and avenging the innocent.
Protecting the guilty isn't on their to-do list. OF course, you could say antipaladins do that.
Of course they also have to respect legitimate authority.
>>43875891
Good has not been positive energy since 1e core. The modern Great Wheel cosmology arose mid 1e, and in it positive energy became no longer good.
>>43875948
>Killing them is a Good act
Ever notice how 100% of people who bitch about alignments being ridiculous and not making sense don't understand it, and make up retarded shit like "killing evil beings is a good act?"
>>43884452
Yup, there's another one over here: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Paladin
>>43878464
Honestly found it on here forever ago
>>43876673
>A truly good-aligned paladin should seek redemption for all but the very most corrupt foes
Why exactly should the class that is a martial-ish, holy warrior dedicated to protecting the innocent, instead be some sort of limp wristed protector of the guilty? What you talk about is for good wizards and gods to bother with.
>>43875836
Maybe.
Here's the thing. Say there's a camp of bandits who do the whole murder rape and pillage deal. Paladin arrives, bandits go to attack him.
At what point is there ANY possibility of "rehabilitation" in a scenario a Paladin is made for?
See, anon, what you're forgetting is that a Paladin is a SOLDIER. A soldier of God, sure, but a soldier nonetheless. A Paladin is not a cop who makes arrests, a Paladin seeks out and destroys evil. Now, if these hypothetical bandits decide they can't win and surrender, then sure, haul them to the city and see if the Church or whoever can rehabilitate them. But rehabilitation is not what a Paladin is for.
>>43876076
>Evil unto evil
>Implying that just punishment is evil
Found the butthurt godless heathen.
Yes. Just the same way a modern law enforcement member is authorized to kill in specific circumstances an assaulting criminal.
More importantly yes, within the context of the laws as defined within the world they live in.
The big difference being that they know who is guilty and who is not.
They know with clarity the evil, the malignity, the darkness in who- or whatever they face.
A paladin can kill, so long as their god sees that action as retribution, as a just act.
Gygax has it in the quote above that an eye for an eye is lawful good. Because in that context, a medieval inspired fantasy setting, such behaviour is mandated by the belief of the population and by Heaven such as it is in this context.
That does not mean a Paladin can kill willy-nilly. They can, and should kill within their purview of justice. The existence of a truly despicable person of creature being just cause for their death, as they can perceive it due to their very nature allows them to kill.
In a modern, 21st century setting, beliefs and retributions would be different. But there is no reason for a Paladin not to have a killing mandate. An evil creature, whose sole purpose is to inflict suffering ought to be put down by mandate, then so it shall be.
Now, a Paladin can go above and beyond. He should. But there are no moral opposition to his killing an intelligent being should his mandate authorize it.
>>43875796
If that should be the case the Paladin should have the power change alignments and not smite evil.
>>43876492
That's True Lawful though.
>>43877927
Which is funny, because they noted that even extraplanars are capable of moving along the alignment scale, though pretty much always only by a single step.
>>43876076
Paying evil unto evil is called justice fucknuts. If holy light burns a demon worshipers flesh the same as their dark curses afflict a child then they deserve it.
>>43875796
Why shouldn't they? Dangerous criminals that resist arrest are fair game.
Why exactly are people so desperately determined to neuter Paladins and good people in general and force them to be weak and incompetent in the face of people who want to destroy them? Are you just edgy shits pretending so you can try to justify Paladins being unable to do their job?
A Paladin is a KNIGHT, a holy warrior who has to protect people from evil. He is fully allowed to kill to further those goals, he is also allowed to dispense justice which will include executions for murderers, rapists, evil cultists and others in any setting that makes even a vague amount of sense for the supposed social and technological level.
No matter how much you people try to turn a Paladin into a modern cop combined with a social worker who tries to rehabilitate the poor misguided youth that is not what he is.
>>43879101
>Two wrongs don't make a right.
Let the philosophers and the women rant about wrong and right. Men make it so one wrong isn't done twice.
/r/ing the pic about some biblical scholar talking about how Lawful Good doesn't mean Lawful Pussy.
>>43886745
A Paladin exists in a world where the impossible does not exist. There's no reason to reduce such a wondrous thing into a colour-coded murder machine.
>>43886913
But part of the wonder is the fierce joy of killing, and knowing that you're right for doing so.
>im playing good therefore I can't ever kill anything
>I must strive to try and save everyone
this is why some people aren't allowed to play good characters and why many of my newer players have horrible misconceptions about good characters.
the vast majority of TTRPGs revolve around players killing shit in one way or another
completely avoiding it and striving to save every single life, even the guy that was just trying to rape you isn't fun and makes the game much less fun for everyone else as well.
unless everyone else in the group is ok with the attitude of "we shouldn't kill anything" then just go along with it. Killing evil aligned beings and even neutral or good aligned beings that were doing evil things is ok in the game. Just go with the flow and try to have as much fun as you can without shitting on anyone else trying to have fun. Very simple concept
>>43884129
when the choice needs to be made, you'll know what choice to make in that instant. You can't explain it.
It's called faith
>>43875796
No.
>>43878681
What?
>>43875997
>>43876018
Yeah, Gygax said some really, really stupid shit over his life.
>>43875796
Ask the Gods, not 4chan.
>>43882848
This, plus there's always the "lawful" part of lawful good. If the paladin acts as a representative of a lawful authority (a king, his order or something else), he dispenses the law. Yes, those bandits might've been good men if not for the hunger or plague or elves, but they chose to commit murder. And the penalty for this is death.
>>43893935
I believe the joke is that life of industrially farmed cow is rather grimdark. Most of the things the little shit in the comics talks about are actually happening.
Well, free range isn't that much better, but they, such is the price of progress.
