Instead of le kungfu weaboo fightan purple robes guy, how would a western/Christian monk work in a fantasy setting?
Clerics come into mind, but they are based on Priests. Monks also spent time studying philosophy and sciences.
>>43791316
>Purple
Fuck me, I meant orange.
>>43791316
If you don't want to go the divine magic route, lots of knowledge skills and mundane healing.
>>43791316
Fuck what they're based on, it's what they can function as that matters.
>>43791316
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_order_(monastic_society)
Cloistered cleric if you're playing pathfinder.
>>43791355
Isn't Cloistered Cleric from Unearthed Arcana though
>>43791316
Make it a Jesuit
>>43791316
>not being a Templar
inb4 paladin
>>43791316
I actually tried something like this awhile back. Basically, the monk hand to hand combat was fluffed as Western style boxing, emphasised as a forb of treating the body as a temple and therfore making it a prefect as possible as a means of devotion. Boozing served the dual purpose of getting the monk fit and allowing them to better defend their flock.
They were also typically like Franciscan friars: taking vows of poverty, travelling, and serving as an example of a humble... servant.
The swing never went anywhere, but I still like the idea and have plans to use it in another world I'm working on now
>>43791316
Just use the sage class from fantasycraft
>>43791475
Basically a 'normal' D&D monk but refluffed for western monks.
Not that that's a bad thing. It'd work.
>>43791316
Commoner 1 with skills in scribing documents and farming and stuff like that. Monks were pretty boring, and not really the type that you'd want as a character archetype in a heroic fantasy game. Leave that to the fighting crusader-type guys and wandering priests and whatnot.
Also, Clerics are literally Van Helsing. The Peter Cushing version specifically. Why did you think they had the ability to brandish their holy symbol and drive away the undead?
The spells mostly started out as "what did the various christian prophets do", but later evolved into something different since you need Evil High Priests and whatnot.
Monks, meanwhile, were created by Arnesson since one of his players wanted to play as the martial artists from the The Destroyer novels. In fact, their abilities have gone somewhat unchanged from OD&D to 3E - kind of fascinating, really.
>>43791316
Being occidental doesn't preclude one from wearing purple robes and fighting flamboyantly
>>43791475
Doing it right. Boxing/grappling were traditional peasant sports; having a monastery devoted to them isn't particularly strange.
>>43791316
>how would a western/Christian monk work in a fantasy setting?
Short story: not.
Long story: Christian monks were the scholarly class of medieval Europe, unlikely to go full murderhobo.
>>43791788
Pic related could be a fun campaign
>>43791832
Seems like that'd be a good PC that a party has to protect for an adventure arc. Not sure if I'd want to play as that poor bastard myself.
>>43792044
>PC
NPC. Fuck my stupid fingers.
Go full Cadfael
You go full WIS monster
You can speak at least 5 languages, you can heal, you can alchemy, you know how to fight even if your body is getting a bit old now, you did military service, you are word perfect in scripture and you are very literate.
Basically a cross between the party Knowledge Guy and the Heal-Bot.
>>43791316
+2 to wine making
>>43791788
>Who is Friar Tuck?
>>43791316
Could be like the Monk from The Canterbury Tales, reflecting his noble background heavily and being a man's man who likes riding expensive horses and hunting, and probably, a good fight once in a while.
Or a similar in spirit "Friar Tuck" sort, who also knows how to have a good time, and break skulls with a Quarterstaff.
You could have a very forthright character, or one that was also very much devious and more worldly than they affect. You also have the kind of meddlers prevalent in real world medieval orders, like Jesuits and various other monastic, but well connected and politically active monks.
These especially would be highly intelligent and mixed up in all kinds of shenanigans.
Also true of people in more conventional positions like Cardinals and such, (Richelieu, etc, but it's not like monks were just doing nothing. Even the most homebody Abbey or what not was a major local power and owned considerable amounts of land and had a say in local politics.)
I mean, again, you can't discount the background of a lot of Monks, and Nuns, really. The vast majority came from high birth, and it showed. They were not always the most humble people, and they had serious connections. Many of them treated their religious titles as basically, the religious counterpart to secular titles of power, which they effectively were in many cases.
>>43792044
Protect a monk from a fanatical cult dedicated to keeping mankind in its current state because "It is natural perfection."
Cult is trying to kill him and burn his books which contain massive advances in technology and sciences.
Get monk across the country to the church's headquarters aka giant Cathedral Castle.
Sounds fun.
>>43792541
You could even give him extremely limited caster utility - not enough spell slots to be useful in combat, but between fights he could try patching the party up a little. Just enough that they think he's useful instead of thinking of him as a worthless sack of hit points in an escort quest.
>>43792541
What if there's another difficulty setting where fake-Katana wielding time-traveling historically illiterate neckbeards attempt to kill all the Christians in the name of "science" or whatever ex-biology professor or neuroscientist they worship.
What kind of weapons did Christian monks use to defend themselves, if at all? Take those and bullshit a noble martial tradition passed down in your character's monastery, add some knowledge skills, and boom. You have a monk.
>>43792183
Didn´t many bishops own enough land to pretty much be on par with secular lords? As a Dutchman myself, I vaguely remember something from my history classes about the Dukes of Holland and the Bishops of Utrecht being bitter rivals.
A particularly powerful monk with his own retinue of warriors would pretty much be a fighter with a religious bend. So a cleric by roleplay, but certainly not by class.
>>43791316
Play Warhammer RPG. It has a shit ton of religious non-martial art, non magic careers.
>>43793934
Don't think there ever was such a thing as "monk weapons". If a monk used a weapon, it would be whatever everyone else was using.
>>43794018
Okay, in that case I'd use whatever weapons are normally associated with monks. Quarterstaffs a la Friar Tuck, maces per that one dude in the crusades who people thought used them as a loophole, stuff like that.
>>43793934
They improvise like peasants with tools for the field. Otherwise they run away.
>>43791353
I always wondered if women were barred from these orders, or if regardless women did or didn't join them it just wasn't relevant to history.
>>43794083
The Norman bishop Odo used a sword, swords are now monk weapons :^)
On a more serious note, bishops that were warlike enough to get interested in warfare would probably use equipment of a style and quality that would match a normal knight. They'd probably use some loopholes to syphon church money into their equipment as well. Something about "protecting the interests of the Church" while invading a minor noble's land just because his army is weak.
That actually sounds like a fun character to play: a naïve young man with an incredible talent for learning and scholarship becomes appointed the bishop of a minor bishopric. With great hopes of charity and studies he begins his tenure but he learns that not all secular lords that surround his estates are equally welcoming of his charitable policies. Over time he becomes a ruthless and incredibly cynical politician. Not because he is corrupt, but because he has lost all hope of maintaining any good in this world without resorting to backstabbing and warfare.
>>43794083
I think the pope also once forbade "the use of bows and slings" on other Christians. It was widely ignored by everyone, but if you want to make a monk-themed character you could play on that.
>>43791316
Wizard is one option.
I mean during the dark ages monks were among the only ones in Europe to really do scholarly stuff.
The local dirt farmers wouldn't have the time, skills of access to the materials he would need to study magic, but the monks over at the monastery just might.
>>43794142
IIRC monastic orders were specifically for either Monks or Nuns, so women could only join if there was a order of military nuns.
>>43791316
Monks were mainly about education and partly cherty work, they had not all that much "connection" with nature and the "power within". Want to make one? Make him str based not dex based. He is not jumping around and landing a million blows, he is full bear mode. Maybe not that quick, but once he lands a hit, rocks are shattered. Give him a lot of herbs lore, calligraphy. Homebrew all the zen shit into "holy" stuff, instead of wis you give him int. Instead of standard monk weapons, give him a staff or a club. Add in just enough alchemy to make basic potions and make wine/beer. Very strict, dose not have to be good, HAS TO BE LAWFUL AS FUCK, we are talking dred levels of lawful. Meditation is replaced with prayer, also some basic healing spells would be nice. Also dont use any boxing or some shit like that, they were simple men with simple ways. You dont need boxing to smack a bitch so hard he leaves all his evil ways and becomes a saint
>>43794243
>Want to make one? Make him str based not dex based. He is not jumping around and landing a million blows, he is full bear mode. Maybe not that quick, but once he lands a hit, rocks are shattered.
That's cool and all, but what does it have to do with being a monk?
>>43794213
>Nuns with guns
Stop, just stop.
>>43794207
That's an interesting thought. If we play in a setting with a monotheistic religion then, regardless of whether it is true or not, objectively true magic might be seen as unraveling your deity's mysteries. This could be seen as either the highest for of worship or the worst kind of blasphemy. There might be religious schisms and wars over the topic. Certain magics, such as necromancy and pact-making, might be universally reviled. Anybody else have thoughts on this subject?
>>43794317
Well, you know how, in ye olden times, if a monk healed someone with a bunch of herbs, it was good, holy knowledge, but if an religiously unranked unmarried woman did the same, it was unholy witchcraft? Arcane magic would probably be like that.
>>43794272
Monks did a lot of manual labore espesialy in the poorer regiones. Farming, choping wood, repairing, helping out the locals. Plus they were provided with good food from the locals. Plus in case of attack in some monasterys they were the ones doing the defending. Last and not least, when a king of knight was not listening to god and doing his biding, in most storys monks were the ones to smack a bitch
>>43794380
*king or knight
>Clerics come into mind, but they are based on Priests.
Priests being well known for running around in heavy armour and smashing heads in, instead of staying back home in the church celebrating mass and so on.
>>43794552
>>43791316
I know it's already been said ITT, but Clerics came about in the first place because somebody wanted to play as Van Helsing. That's how Clerics do.
>>43794317
Admittedly whatever setting you decide to use doesn't have to mirror western Europe during the dark ages. But if you do decide to use it as an inspiration I think this list is pretty interesting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medieval_European_scientists
It ranges from about 500 to 1400 ad, and in it you see that pretty much everyone was either connected to the church in some way or was a Muslim scholar. You could pull some inspirations from there.
>>43794819
Neat, thanks. I would like some speculation from those more knowledgeable than I as to how the medieval catholic church would have treated learnable magic such as fireballs or featherfall and such.
>>43794969
Probably the same way they treated science in our world. When they studied science they were discovering how god made the world work. And in a setting where magic is real I'd assume it would be seen as just another facet of the world.
Also with a bit of >>43794362 for whoever wasn't a monk.
>>43794969
Evocation would probably be fine after a trial period to make sure you weren't going to become a mage lord on the Church's dime.
Invocation would almost certainly be right out. Even angelic invocation, John Dee wasn't exactly heralded as a conduit to the heavens.
>>43791316
You'd need a game less focused on traditional adventuring, with room for stuff like scientific study, political maneuvering, etc.
Very often in history priests were the first boots on the ground in any foreign exploration scenario. Jesuit priests infiltrated the living fuck out of Japan. The only reason we have a good picture of Oda Nobunaga is because he liked the Jesuits and let them draw him and bring him tiny pianos and shit.
Now a large part of this was that Nobunaga fucking HATED buddhist monks, because they had thwarted his shit like a dozen times, sometimes in a military fashion. So pacifist Christian monks who had never touched a naginata in their lives, and indeed who held pacifism in the face of death and violence to be sacred, were like a dream come true to the budding dictator. He probably humored them so much because it pissed the native monks off.
But little stuff like that, or like priests who made early headway with the natives in the Americas, or in Africa. There were white pastors at Rorke's Drift ON THE ZULU SIDE watching events, because the idea of killing them had never occurred to the Zulu king. Why would he? They're priests, not soldiers. They also sent monks to try and talk it out with the Mongols a few times, and while they never succeeded, there are no records of him killing any of them.
So you could think of priests as scholars with a sort of diplomatic immunity. Maybe in a fantasy context, even orcs wouldn't hurt a priest without provocation. And of course, not all priests are honest, so maybe you could work an espionage angle in there. Metal Cross Communion: Tactical Jesuit Simulator.
Everyone loves a murder mystery
>>43795261
80k Mongols of the initial hordes were Nestorian Christians. Temujin's uncle's entire tribe.
>>43791316
I know that 3.x had a "Cloistered Cleric" which was a less martial more skill focused cleric based off of monks and theologians.
>>43795261
>Maybe in a fantasy context, even orcs wouldn't hurt a priest without provocation
The French colonized Vietnam because 10 priests were killed. Let me rephrase that: 10 dead priests = 100 years of bending the knee to a foreign ruler and letting him rob your people blind.
Perhaps priests had diplomatic immunity because it was known that killing one was a perfect way to piss Christians off. A lot.
>>43795546
Well they were often scions of your peoples' nobility and trained in many of the arts of statesmanship and natural philosophy. 10 priests is a significant investment of education years and knowledge.
>>43792803
That'd be a great flavor for spicing up sessions.
Be a circumcellion, a donatist preacher for martyrdom and beating passers-by with clubs.
Because swords are against God's will.
Try to get a true Christian Death.
>>43791316
Cannon Fodder
Meat Shields
Perfect replacement for Firewood
>>43795546
Fucking vietkucks deserved it imo
>>43794673
>somebody wanted to play as Van Helsing.
Not even that - Arnesson was running an evil players vs. good players campaign of sorts, and Sir Fang the Vampire was fucking unkillable.
Hence Clerics being Van Helsing. It's just something that appeared in response to a need in the game, like Thieves being a thing since players wanted to hire anti-dungeon specialists who were masters of unlocking and whatnot.
>>43794142
>I always wondered if women were barred from these orders
>I always wondered if women were barred from these orders made up entirely of celibate men
>>43794552
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegfried_II_of_Westerburg
>>43797311
Maybe they let women in, but all secret-like. It was more important for everyone else but them to be celibate anyways.
>>43795261
>And of course, not all priests are honest, so maybe you could work an espionage angle in there.
See also: the history of Jesuit agents in post-Henry VIII England. There's precedent for this shit
>>43797393
>It was more important for everyone else but them to be celibate anyways.
To put it simply, you're wrong.
Many warrior monks fought bravely against the Vikings
Boxing priest with brass knuckles. Left hand, knuckles say "heaven". Right hand? Hell.
>>43798332
Sauce? That sounds badass.
>>43794290
Do we still have religious military orders?
>>43799459
There a few recognized heirs to the Knights of Saint John (the Catholic Maltese one and the protestant English, German, Dutch and Swedish ones). They mostly do aid work and hospital stuff
War Priests are still totally a thing guys.
>psst, this isn't just an Orthodox thing; western chaplains do stuff like this too
>>43800726
Orthodox priests look like fucking Wizards sometimes
>>43799838
There is still a Catholic Order of the Teutonic Knights in Bavaria who are traditionally descended from the knights who where like "Guys, what we are about to do is a bad Idea. Let's not do that."
>>43791316
I remember an obscure RPG Called Dragon Warriors, made by two British misanthropes to be as unrelentingly cruel as possible. Originally released in the 80's and later rebooted in the 00's by mongoose, they made some online supplemental material detailing additional classes. One of these was the Friar, a mundane wandering sort who apart from being alright fighters had two sort of talent pools. They could learn skills, such as surgery, building and architecture, knowledge about local folklore, and flagellation to improve their toughness and allowing them to skip sleep. They also have charisms, which are supernatural but more subtle. God is only capable of benevolent actions except against demons and undead, so most charisms generally give a social or defensive bonus like something out of the new testament. You can also trade in a charism skill point to get a miracle, which is a get out of jail free card as long as it protects or aids innocents. Perform 3 miracles, and you might be a candidate for sainthood. I enjoyed playing my friar, who was more of a scholar and skillmonkey.
>>43791316
>Fantasy
>Christian monk
Normally by being a monk, freelance class with some history, medicine, oratory and other unrelated secondary skills, level averanging to 2-3 tops with some on the high 7 to 8 if they're pontiff and similar. Not much combat skills by the general rule (maybe some on the low 100s).
>>43800726
This.
Or outright fighting, although that's more common in pre-civil war Spain, since they used to be the most catholic country on earth, maybe after the vatican (and that's debatable).
>>43791316
Punch vital organs with your voice.
Absolute muscle control(prana-bindu conditioning)
>>43800726
Those jets are adorable.
>>43804742
>Punch vital organs with your voice.
The Weirding Way is superpowered martial arts drawing on that same total control of the body god dammit!
Fucking movie with its fucking laser-voice-box-things and it's fucking literal rain on Arrakis at the end presented as a good thing even though rain on Arrakis would be a complete ecological disaster.
>>43805231
Yeah, but martial arts in the conventional style, isn't what OP wanted. He wanted alternatives(although considering that Dune borrows from every facet of human culture, it may not be the best suggestion).
>>43791316
They use swords instead of unarmed fighting. Thats about it.
Western monks were pretty good at passing on martial skills, and besides, Knights Templar, Knights Hospitaller etc. were monastic orders.
>>43805767
Not entirely true. Knights in those orders typically took vows of poverty and chastity and such, but they were NOT ordained clergy.
>>43804187
>(and that's debatable)
I want to make a joke about an alternate history where Spain invades Vatican City for not being Catholic enough, but chances are that actually fucking happened during one of the many, many anti-papacies.
>>43791316
You say you never played as a Christian monk?
Be the scholar of your party. Be the healer of your party. Be the detective of the party. Be the perfect spy of your party, because who will treat a monk seriously. Be a cunning mastermind, because you are 3rd son of a wealthy noble.
And so on and so forth. Options are limitless, especially when compared with kung-fu dudes that punch and kick things
>>43791408
Which century and in what part of the world?
Makes a HUGE difference on what and how the Jesuit will turn out.
>>43805973
The Borgia papacy for one, not to mention all the Spanish ambitions in the Sicilies.
>>43805767
The Bible specifically prohibits clergy from taking up the sword.
This is the reason that the few clerical orders who've taken to arms have usually used maces and quarterstaves - bladed weapons are too Scripturally dubious, but blunt weapons have been used a lot because they're not specifically forbidden.
>Random abbey in the middle of nowhere
>Bandits start terrorizing the countryside
>Local ruler don't give a fuck, because fuck peasants and muh decadence
>Monks decide someone's gotta do something
>Don't got weapons or shit
>Start re-purposing farming implements into weapons, training how to fuck people up with their bare hands
>Train super fast and efficiently because of disciplined, devotion and faith
>Kick the shit out of the bandits
>Brotherhood of 'Don't fuck with my flock or I'll break your fucking teeth, I swear on me Lord' is born
>They're styled after Franciscan/Dominicans/Benedictan or whatever
>>43806003
Go for the modern world and have it be in the Chick Comic universe.
Jesuit secret agents in every government secretly starting Communist and Islamic uprising whilst worshiping Mary and Satan.
Why isn't Mr Chick in a padded cell?
>>43806076
>Jesuit secret agents in every government secretly starting Communist and Islamic uprising whilst worshiping Mary and Satan.
>mfw
Mad cuz you don't have a Pope, Chick?
![Armand-Jean_du_Plessis_Richelieu_1[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/pQT6lRN.jpg "Armand-Jean_du_Plessis_Richelieu_1[1].jpg")
>>43806076
>Jesuit secret agents in every government secretly starting Communist and Islamic uprising whilst worshiping Mary and Satan.
Ignoring the Mary and Satan worship, diplomatically speaking a lot of highly ranked clergymen had dubious relations with both their monarch and the church. For example, Cardinal(!) Richelieu was obviously loyal to Louis XIII (or if we're more skeptical, he was his puppet master) to the point where he, a Catholic cardinal, got Catholic France to fight on the Protestant side of the Thirty Years War just to knock the Catholic Habsburgs down a peg, but on the other hand he had a lot of priests and bishops who were loyal to him (and employed them as spies in especially Habsburg lands).
Cardinals (whether loyal to the Church or another nation) could easily use lower ranked clergymen as spies and informants. A lone priest overhearing some battle plans could lead to the enemy appearing exactly where you don't want them to be.
>>43806211
They were hardly secret.
Don't get me wrong the Church was politically on the side of the Church above little kings and their little wars and I wouldn't have bought a 2nd hand car from any of them but it wasn't secret
![uTjwn8u[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/W3do6Yj.jpg "uTjwn8u[1].jpg")
>>43806073
>Brotherhood of 'Don't fuck with my flock or I'll break your fucking teeth, I swear on me Lord' is born
They must have the most amazing technique
>The "Get the fuck out of here or I'll snap your fucking neck"
>The "That's my cousin you fucking asshole you're not walking out of here alive"
And my personal favorite
>The "Scripture doesn't say anything about kneecaps, sucker"
>>43806272
>>43806073
Glorious. I'm going to use this in a game at some point.
>>43791316
Depending on how fantasy you want, Priest or Keeper in FantasyCraft could be a mundane Christian monk
Priest if they actually have divine powers and receive guidance through prayer and shit
Keeper if they're just a mundane scholar with a good understanding of things like crafting and medicine and literacy.
>>43809367
>Keeper if they're just a mundane scholar with a good understanding of things like crafting and medicine and literacy.
>understanding of literacy
I'm imagining someone who is very understanding of literacy but is not literate.
>>43791316
>Chinese culture
>weeaboo
You dun' full gooftard.
>>43806073
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_the_Black
