How would players react to a villain that can't truly be killed?
Say he comes back after a few villains with a new plan, or again with a new set of characters, or maybe he butts heads with another antagonist and the players are caught up between them.
My first time GMing will be this weekend, any general tips?
Probably either
>Then we'll find a way to kill him for good!
or
>Then we'll just keep killing him until he dies.
>>43789675
It depends on the nature of his immortality, really. If he simply can't be killed, you can throw him into space or lock him in a coffin. If he heals no matter what you do to him, that's more versatile - But he can still die.
It reminds me of Nethack, where I ran out of ways to kill a troll - So I ate the corpse, out of sheer desperation.
>>43789726
>>43789743
Just so we're clear, I'm talking about Diablo here.
Imprisonment was the general goal of Diablo 2, and killing him was the goal of 3.
I really like the idea of an unkillable foe. You can destroy his body, but he'll come back on his own in a century or so. And he can be imprisoned, at least until some madman frees him from his crystal prison.
Depending on how you handle it could be interesting or just really frustrating.
I know I wouldn't like the idea of my DM ever going "No, you can't ever truly beat him." because it would make all the characters efforts seem really futile. I get that works as a narrative thing but it's immensely demoralizing in a TTRPG or RPG.
>>43789675
If you can't beat 'em...
>>43789675
Unless you're running a very unusual game, defeating something for a century isn't actually any different than permanently defeating them. The players ended the threat and they will never encounter it again.
That is to say, unless there's an intergenerational or time travel angle the fact that your BBEG will eventually return is just a question of aesthetics. Do your players prefer bittersweet victories or outright triumphs? That's the real question.
If this is your first GM don't use him in the first session your campaign is statistically not gonna make it thru a few more villans for him to come back, and anyone capable of coming back from the dead is gonna be a badass even if not a combatant just because of the amount of connections and just as planned you can set in motion.
Also if the first villan they beat isn't actually beaten it kinda reduces the importance of their actions, especially if that's the only villan they beat cuz the game falls apart.
Also how are you gonna explain the villan getting stronger every time to keep up with the party? And can they be sealed? I loved the diablo lore with mephisto sealed in the one bro battling him forever.
PreDiablo 1: Diablo exists. The horadrim kill him and stick his soul into a crystal. He still radiated evil, and corrupted a mage into sticking his crystal prison into some kid's head so he could corrupt his body and make it into His own.
Diablo 1: Some ice cold nigga slays Diablo, takes the crystal out of his head and sticks it into his own in order to contain Diablo and not let his evil do what it did to the mage.
Diablo 2: But that didn't work and Diablo corrupted that guy and his body and turned it into His own. Some other niggas kill him, and his crystal is destroyed, banishing him to nonexistance.
Diablo 3: Except his soul was apparently floating around, and some wench used magic to grab it all and bind it to a bigger stone, along with the souls of his brothers and lesser evils, then stuck that into another kid, where Diablo again corrupted her body and made it into his own, except a lot faster, and now he has a physical form again. More niggas show up and slay Diablo again, so his soul is stuck in the crystal prison again. Good angel keeps the crystal prison in its own prison, but then Bad angel comes along and takes the crystal for its power to kill everyone on the planet. Those niggas from before slay Bad angel too, after he broke the crystal to gain its power. Bad angel dies, but in doing so allows Diablo and friends to exist again in some form.
Not totally relevant, but you can see how some things just won't stay gone.
>>43790023
>Blizzard lore
>2015
>>43790058
>not 1v1ing Prime Evil Diablo and wrecking his face in because you're just that cool
Diablo 3's writing was shit, as much as I've enjoyed the game in general.
>>43789675
Huh.
Dude.
You may have opened a door for me that I have always considered to be closed.
I had never thought about htat notion until you said it, like it was some sort of forbidden fruit to never touch... But I like the way it sounds.
The trouble with an unkillable villain or one that can't be ever defeated fully is that, due to power creep if the game persists after the villains death, he'll eventually become a huge joke.
The first time you fight The Real Actual Satan, its gonna feel amazing. You've all been fighting to put this guy in the ground for one reason or the other, you've trained and fought and improved your skills leading to this moment and you do it. You've killed him. He's dead.
Maybe time passes and then the rumblings of him start again, but they're still Heroes. They may even be stronger. Do you make Real Actual Satan even stronger to balance it out? If so, where does it end and if he could get stronger in this way why didn't he do it in the first place?
These are the questions I would ask as a player.
My answer as a GM is: "That IS a good question. Wonder if there's an answer to that somewhere"
And make it so that as long as there is a force of "good" or something to oppose Real Actual Satan then he will only exponentially get stronger as the Heroes do until they are defeated or die.
The best way to defeat the unkillable evil is to kill it and die after so that his strength doesn't have the chance to build in conjunction to theirs.
>>43790058
>>43790078
oh yeah, Diablo 3's writing was wretched. Nobody's saying otherwise
Do you want it to be a fullblown demon or just a vessel that your players have to put down?
>>43789915
It could be a chase-based game. They slay the demon, but each time he comes back stronger, and they're desperately trying to find someone or some McGuffin that'll help keep him permanently contained. Alternatively, they have a McGuffin that he needs, and they have to keep it away at all costs or Hell will literally pour into this world because of reasons
>>43790058
>Not digging everything pre Diablo 3
Come on dude
>>43789915
I disagree, the goal IS to kill him, but you make it clear that "killing" him is just a fancy way of escaping from the villain's point of view. It is just an interesting shift in perception for the characters.
>>43789875
We already figured out how to beat Diablo in a previous thread, granted that was sort of setting specific.
It is possible for mortals to create portals to hell. This is canon, as it is usually how things end up worse for everyone involved.
Now all you have to do is create the biggest portal that you can and open it in space, preferably after it reaches a minimum safe distance away from the Earth. This will have at least two effects, and then shit gets conditional.
Effect 1: The vacuum will suck air, and anything caught in the suction, out of hell. This will be a constant effect until such time as the portal is closed, an act that will be difficult to accomplish from their side as getting close means getting sucked through into space.
Effect 2: The ejection of air (and lets be honest, demons) out of the portal will act as thrust, pushing whatever platform the portal is mounted on in the opposite direction. Its not going to be the worlds strongest thruster, but its basically free acceleration. So its going to carry itself well away from Earth over time.
What all else happens depends on whether Hell is considered finite or infinite in nature.
If Hell is finite, then it will eventually run out of air entirely and the fires of hell themselves will dim. Demons can drown and be strangled, so its safe to say that most of them are not going to take to an oxygenless environment very well. Powerful demons like the prime evils may follow different rules, but the vast armies under their commands will be fucked.
If Hell is infinite, we have still created a region of 'fuck you' in hell with the interesting side effect of slowly filling the vacuum of space with air with no signs of stopping. Which is interesting, if nothing else.
>>43790118
Not kill, beat. Sorry, just woke up.
>>43789675
Burn them in their golden hell.
>>43790133
I mean, that is of course working under the assumption that space behaves the exact same as in real life, which it might now.
It might be filled with ether and not be a vaccum or something.
>>43790167
Getting the portal up there is the hard part I believe. I mean, I suppose you could have a portal a few miles above ground, but that'd only kill off demons without wings
>>43790167
Hence why it was described as sort of setting specific. It was originally part of a 'Diablo and his armies invade Earth, what do?'
The answer turned out to be 'cheat like a motherfucker'.
>>43790023
I liked that concept before it was cool.
>>43790133
Whats stopping the Primal Hell Lords or any powerful being from just shaping the plane around it to seal it? I.E solid metal barrier.
Or just closing the portal? Or moving the portal back to Earth?
The entire post reeks of "we can kill anything so long it never reacts or tries to react".
>>43789915
>>43790009
Gem prison would be a more long term option. The point of this thread is to ask basically if him coming back or locking his ass away would suck for you if you were my player.
I prefer having multiple avenues for his reincarnation. Either his body could heal, or if that isn't an option he could possess someone or whatever.
>>43790018
I plan on having the first villain being a lieutenant trying to complete some unknown ritual early and clever players will remember the lieutenant when the boss shows up. Thanks for the warning though. Soul prisioning him will be the goal after a couple of run ins.
>>43790081
Why would there even need to be a power creep? He could just be a villain in a specific level/difficulty range.
>"That IS a good question. Wonder if there's an answer to that somewhere"
Exactly.
>>43790133
Sorry, man. I haven't read that thread.
>This is canon
For what? The standard DnD setting?
>assuming
>>43790118
I like you, you're pretty Kulle, bro.
>>43789675
Extreme happiness. They now have their personal undying torture toy. I'd also be surprised if the villain doesn't get pregnant a few times.
>>43790092
Pic related.
>>43790353
>>43789675
>>>first time DM focusing on THE big bad evil guy
The players won't encounter him in the first adventure, and if they do it will be a shitty adventure where the DM shows off his "phenomenal cosmic power."
Do something more simple. A bunch of skeletons in full plate are attacking the town. Nobody knows they're skeletons. The distant sound of bagpipes can be heard, directing their movements
>>43790440
YOU MUST SAVE A SEXY WITCH FROM A MEAN WITCH HUNTER PALADIN! SHE HAS A COOL SWORD/CLOAK/TITS IF YOU HELP LMAO
>>43789875
Either get him to discorporate for a sufficient period of time, and let the heroes of the future deal with that crap, or imprison him really, really well. Like sealed inside a tiny black box floating in the far reaches of space well.
>>43790405
I find it fucking hilarious that this edit made it so the two women leaning against the pillar are wearing even less clothes.
>>43790440
>The players won't encounter him in the first adventure
Why not? Makes it more personal when you're out to get him not just because he the bad guy out there somewhere, but (also) because he kicked your ass and motivates you to become stronger to beat him. There are games where a boss or the BBEG beats you early on, just so that the eventual encounter has a more personal touch.
>>43790642
Because it feels like the DM is just being a dick and that this character is just his way of meme-ing himself into the game.
It's abrasive if poorly done.
If it's well done, you still have some dick-ass immortal superbeing who for some reason wanted to fuck up old granny smith's goat farm for kicks until the players are of a level suitable for his schemes to make sense.
>>43790615
I'm working on ideas that are better than "lol crystal prison that doesn't work 2 well."
>>43790642
Why would they just be killed outright?
>>43790679
Or he had a personal interest in Granny Smith's Goat farm, because she was actually the last member of an ancient sisterhood sworn to guard the X pieces of The McGuffin the BBEG needs. He has no interest in the party, so he has no reason to kill them, but if they get in his way, he'll whoop their asses a bit.
Then the party can go through Smith's stuff and find clues about her. Following the clues will lead them on the BBEG's trail and ways of defeating him and stopping The McGuffin.
Hell, the party doesn't even have to be aware it's the BBEG. Maybe it's actually the true last member of the sisterhood being controlled by the true BBEG to gather the pieces of The McGuffin to free it and let it fully possess her body to become corporeal. Maybe all the enemies you encounter are not directly working for the BBEG, but are just criminals paid or cultists being tricked into attacking you. There's no real BBEG army out there, just people being sent after you to allow the BBEG to escape and join the last piece with the others at their lair.
I had a character in a Unknown Armies campaign called the Headline Beheader who would come back to life after being dead for a round. When my players discovered he wouldn't stay dead, especially when he would attempt to cleave them in half, they shat themselves whenever he appeared and fled, taking him out before running to the nearest vehicle. I was pretty proud of getting that sort of reaction from them.
A moment I was particularly fond of was having them driving down a long open road before being side-swiped by the Beheader, who proceeded to get out (unscathed of course) and have a good bash at murdering them. They were all attending to themselves when WHAM, dice got dropped and people got hurt.
So, in my opinion a unkillable enemy can be effective. The Beheader was deadly, implacable, but not frustrating as he could be way-laid with enough damage. I also used him very sparingly, he appeared maybe 4 or 5 times over the months we played. This made him an effective dramatic tool, raising the stakes in a perilous situation. I once had him ambush them in the burning library of a cabal, so "escape this burning library" became "escape this burning libary AND the murderous immortal killer chasing us".
>>43790700
>Why would they just be killed outright?
What?
>>43789915
Well then stay in D&D and never play Call of Cthulu, Delta Green or anything similar. Your power-fantasy-infested brain might explode
>>43790818
Wouldn't
Typing is hard.
>>43790815
That would be really cool for a lieutenant or avatar or something.
>>43790957
Ok. They wouldn't be killed, because they were not the BBEG's goal. Or they unleashes a blast that throws the party around and knocks them out. Or maybe they all DO get killed, but something saves them from death and that's part of the story. Or there's a big battle the party members are a part of and they're the only survivors. Or a BDCG comes to fend off the BBEG and save the badly hurt party and chases after him. The party can later find the BDCG dead.
>>43791063
>they unleashes
He, the BBEG, unleashes.
>>43791063
>BDCG
???
I think that would be best to do once I get used to my GM pants.
I haven't even decided what I'm doing yet. This GM shit is hard.
>>43791235
Big Dick Cool Guy. I dunno, what's the opposite of a BBEG?
Not a DMPC, though. Just some dude after the BBEG and who saves the party, then leaves after the BBEG. The party could follow their path until the guy is found dead (maybe with cool loot for the party members), killed by the BBEG. There could be people in the path of the party who were also saved by the guy. Would help with ramping up the difficulty, as once the dude is dead, there's just the path of destruction left by the BBEG. So less helpful people and more monsters and shit.
>>43791389
Big Dick Cool Guy. I dunno, what's the opposite of a BBEG?
The party, I would have said.
That works though, I could have an order that's been around for ages that's charged with stopping the big bad (basically the Horadrim sort of) and they would have a champion to slap his shit when he wakes up and put down his followers when he isn't.
Might be cool.
I actually really liked how final fantasy 10 handled a villain who could not be killed (Sin). And by proxy how Berserk did it ('God').
They were pretty much an amalgam of emotions and ideas given form. You cant really defeat it so much as suppress it. Great hook is haveing the characters find a way to try and seal it away temporarily, and as they get to high levels of play start interacting with the pantheons on how to possibly defeat it or permanently make it not a problem.
Every time they seal it, someone down the road hungry for domination tries to free it blah blah.
Now that I'm thinking about it, is there a system that allows you to modify abilities as runes do in D3?
Say, adding a specific effect to or changing parts of an ability?
Eh we ran into a similar situation in my party, there was an angry lich who had a nasty penchant for showing up at the least convenient times to fuck with us. After a few close calls everyone in the party started allocating a few levels and feats towards dealing with powerful undead. Long story short, we weren't able to find this guys phylactery because magic shenanigans. But he only got easier to deal with as time went on, so instead of having an oppressive bbeg that we couldn't get rid of, we ended up with a quirky mini boss who finished the campaign being about as threatening as team rocket.
>>43789675
This happened to us once. Fucker died 3 times before we finally killed him. The final. Time brought two characters out of retirement because they were the only ones who knew what they were dealing with. The man has basically pulled a Voldemort and separated his mind/body/soul and would keep coming baxk until they were all dealt with.
It was the story of a LE human assassin and a CG Minotaur warrior (only two left at the end) who eventually traveled to hell with the king's son to kill Greed using anime style power joining so they could take the dude's soul and kill it for good. Easily the best campaign I ever had the pleasure of playing.
>>43789675
>How would players react to a villain that can't truly be killed?
How the hell players character are 100% sure about this, sounds like a thing only a metagamer would know
>>43792115
So basically what persona 3 did with Nyx and Erebus?
