THIS IS NOT A CIV GAME, IT IS A GENERAL.
The chart is an almost finished work in progress. What else does it need?
Also, feel free to discuss other civilization quests.
>>43764370
>almost finished
>no perks
...wait, Myrm is that you? It looks a lot better than the last one, I'll give you that.
>>43764370
>What else does it need?
To be in the trash.
>>43764640
The races have stats, if that's what you mean, although shit is still shit. The images and text may as well not be there. If it was nothing but a row of meaningless colored stat bars it would only be improved.
>>43764680
>To be in the trash.
>>>/b/
>>43764640
What perks do they need?
>>43764713
yup, confirmed Myrm.
Stats are the least identifying traits of a race. Perks are the easiest way to have traits that can be translated into mechanics.
It's nowhere near finished because you have not differentiated the races in any meaningful way.
>>43764772
That's why I wrote "almost finished".
It just needs a few blurbs and it is ready to be played.
>>43764790
almost finished != nowhere near finished
You are downplaying the most important part of the image. It says a lot if you put more thought into the images than everything else combined.
I want civ games to be popular/good again. I'd do it myself but I can't into writing
>>43764713
You asked, I just told you the truth.
This chart means nothing, it contains no information and conveys no intelligible data about anything. Even as art pieces the individual pictures are nothing special. They do not convey any meaningful information about the locale, the environment, the scarcity of resources or any potential local life. The races are random monsters or abstract images that, while possible to exist as a physical object, still have no indication of what makes them unique, what their culture is like, or even how they exist at all.
A civilization of trains? A settlement of all consuming lion monsters? None of these have any logical thought put into them at all. It looks like you just slapped the first few images that you could find and called it a day.
Honestly it looks like you put more effort into the shitty QR code decoration then you put into the chart itself.
>>43764837
The same can be said of ALL of the civilization charts. You only target mine based on your own grudge.
>>43764923
not him, but it's kind of really easy to pick out your style out of everyone else's.
>>43764988
Yes, but so what?
I try to do something different and the D&D dorks have a hissy fit. They only want generic extruded fantasy product with humanoid races.
Fuck that.
I want something with a bit of mythos and creativity.
>>43764923
No, you can't. Your typical chart has images that convey the aesthetic of the race, or offer some intuitive insight into their nature. Same for the land image. Is it a barren desert? A lush forest? A tropical island?
Well with yours we don't fucking know, do we? I see some art pieces, not landscapes. I look at those things and I can't tell if it's a coast, or a desert, or an ocean, or some kind of plant field. I can guess at the weather of a few, but most are just totally unintelligible and even with that many of them still manage to look similar enough to seem like re-hashes. A wizard tower in a forest clearing, a wizard tower on a hill, a wizard tower in an island (I think), or a wizard tower in a tree, and of course the wizard tower in a maze.
It somehow manages to be both so abstract as to mean nothing, and samey enough to seem almost pointlessly similar all at once.
>>43765040
Look, I like the images you picked. I enjoy weird shit. It's just that with weird shit that's not generic fantasy, you need to include a lore page so people understand them. Lore improves everything, but for weird races it's essential because people don't have an innate understanding of their archetypes like they would if it was a bunch of orcs and elves.
>>43765040
Because when your entire idealogy is centered around being different, especially "not this thing" or "not DND", you have immediately hamstringed the scope that you can capture with what you produce.
You talk a lot about creativity and mythos but you haven't made much, if any.
>>43765052
See >>43764923
You only repeated yourself without taking my point into account. Apply the same logic to all the charts, putting aside you biases against me, and you will learn why that's bullshit.
>>43765040
No, fuck that, fuck you, and fuck everything you just said. Your argument boils down to "You don't like meaningless ink blotches and pretentious circle jerking, so you must be a D&D player that only wants discount Tolkien high fantasy drivel."
Are you trolling us, or are you actually so dumb and lack so much self-awareness that you are actually incapable of understanding what anyone has told you in all the years you have been here hocking your shit like a used car salesman?
>>43765072
For a civilization quest, lore comes from the players and their interactions.
Also, since I don't (yet) intend to *use* this chart, that's largely irrelevant. I'm still hammering out the kinks and doing some sketchy worldbuilding.
>>43765159
People need some kinda prompt to get started though, you know? Everyone else here seems to know you. I don't, so all I really want is to help.
>>43765073
But that's wrong.
>>43765122
No, I'm responding to your narrow-minded range of tastes.
>>43765118
See >>43765052
Hey, I can link posts too.
Your images are abstract paintings. There is no logic to be had. Hell, your strange and shitty forays into questing have been deliberately devoid of any and all logic. You don't get a free pass just because you slapped a few images on a chart and claim it's logical.
You want any of this to be accepted as anything but garbage? Make lore. Give us reasons to care about those images.
Otherwise fuck off.
>>43765180
Thanks for the support. I've been trying to raise the discourse of fantasy quests for a while.
In a few cases, it actually worked so I feel vindicated.
>>43765196
See >>43765159
>For a civilization quest, lore comes from the players and their interactions.
>>43765210
with posts like "But that's wrong"?
I'll wait until that anon realizes that you won't actually take his advice, or answer anything that takes the middle ground.
>>43765303
You're not offering advice. You're being a little bitch.
>>43765219
Alright, I'll humor you for a moment and assume you are willing to learn a bit this time, instead of deflecting to protect your dadaist bullshit.
A setting, be it quest or civ, is like a house. As the creator of this setting and the runner of the quest or civ, you are in charge of making that house. Some offer more or less options to players for building that house, and how much or how little you should give is essentially a matter of player preference, however, no matter how much you wish it to be otherwise, there must be a foundation built upon which the players can build.
Some QMs and CMs lay out the basic floor plan and let the players run wild. Some will make the finished house and allow the players to focus on decorating it to their liking, but what you are doing is presenting an empty lot as viewed from a kaleidoscope and claiming it's the players' job to make everything for you. It isn't.
>>43765335
well you haven't actually replied to my advice yet, so.
>>43765347 >>43765369
But that pertains only to the running of the quest, not to the chart which informs it.
>>43765456
The two are inexorably linked. You make a chart with the intention of it being used, thus, it must convey some, or preferably most of the basic concepts of the race and location. That is how the players make an informed decision.
If you actually plan on other people using this chart, this is even more critical. It must hold some level of understanding and logic regarding what the players are and where they begin, allowing them to build a rapport of which race they enjoy and why, the advantages and disadvantages of certain locations when combined with certain races, and the meta that such things create.
Creating a chart that lacks all of this lore and simple but important guides for creating additional lore only means that anyone who would use the chart would need to exert as much or more effort into making the chart work then he would have by simply starting from scratch and making his own, which defeats the purpose entirely.
I have never seen you run using one of these charts, and you talk as if you want others to use them and not you, so I can only assume that you are making these for other CMs to run with, and they won't, because your chart lacks that basic guiding foundation that allows them to easily connect to the players regarding what each race does well, what they do poorly, and how the different locations work with those strengths and weaknesses. No CM will use your chart because it demands as much effort as building their own chart, while limiting their capacity and creativity to the constraints of a series of illogical images that they are now forced to explain. At best, it is an oddity that someone may use as a quick distraction to be discarded when it becomes boring, and at worst it will remain untouched.
All this would be fine, were it not for the fact that you scream about it from the top of every roof top as if it were the second coming of Christ, only to shut any detractors down with petty insults and deflections.
>>43765687
No, what my chart lacks is an obvious connection to D&D tropes.
It lacks orcs, elves, and dwarves so people freak out. They feel unmoored without their pseudo-Tolkien templates.
I'm deliberately rejecting such easy hooks. And I want to foster this habit across questing.
>>43765769
You fail to understand why easy hooks are popular.
>>43765769
You think too highly of yourself, if that's what you think the "problem" of your civ is.
>>43765784
I understand. I just dislike it.
It fosters complacency and shit taste.
>>43765827
This is slightly better than the usual ones, but it still many of the same problems.
>>43765852
>shit taste
so does telling people they have BADWRONGFUN
>complacency
I think I've accomplished far more in fighting that than you
>>43765870
and will you address the actual point of the argument?
>>43765827
This one could use a race or two with exceptional diplomacy.
>>43765901
You don't have an actual point. You're just defending tradition for tradition's sake. Now, address what the chart needs and/or what you'd like to add to it or stop responding. You're just embarrassing yourself.
>>43765923
Yes, it can do with a lot of changes, but we're not here to do that right now.
>>43765950
I....already told you? It needs details, it needs, as another anon called it, lore, and that is MILES more important than everything you have already put down.
You need to shift your entire design philosophy. Pictures are only one element in what translates into a roleplaying medium.
>>43765950
We have told you repeatedly.
>>43765347
>>43765687
This is the answer you are asking for, but you ignore it because it is not the answer you want.
Please note that nowhere is it stated that you should utilize anything from or related to D&D.
>>43766061
You've said nothing of any relevance. Please, realize this.
Your entire argument rests on D&D premises regardless of explicitly mentioning it.
>>43766090
what are these DND premises, enlighten me, for I have only played DnD twice in my entire life.
>>43765687
This was a quality response
>>43765769
This response was ridiculous.
/tg/uys, he's trolling. This is what trolling looks like. He's been doing it for a long time.
>>43766090
I have too much faith in mankind still to believe you are not doing this deliberately.
You are free to make your case and point out what these premises are, and I will gladly listen and respond if you manage to actually make a point, but I will not engage any more of your broken record logical fallacies.
My mistake was trying to play chess with the pigeon and expecting it to do anything but shit on the board and strut about acting like it won something.
>>43766137
Creativity isn't trolling. You just aren't used to differing opinions.
>>43766156
Your mistake was replying to your preconceived biases instead of what I actually posted.
>>43766197
>>43766221
and so Myrm again refuses to define the supposed "evils" that he cites.
>>43766197
'Traditional' civilization ideas can be useful because everyone's familiar with them. Everyone has an idea of the stereotypical dwarf or elf. From there, it's possible to flesh out more nuanced traits, but everyone's on the same page very quickly.
The downside, of course, is that it's broadly the same old dwarf and elf from every other instance.
I like your chart, and what I'd like to see is even more lore and information, because I think those creatures could go in a million novel, interesting ways. I think really good OP text would make it a really stand-out quest. I hope to see it on the board soon!
>>43766245
1. The assumptions of D&D gameplay.
2. Having D&D races, which are just humans with a twist.
3. No consideration for metaphysics, ethics, or anything remotely philosophical.
4. Magic systems that are neither magical nor systems.
5. The myth of progress.
6. The incestuousness of inspirational sources (without even taking them to their conclusions).
>>43766400
Other than all of this being total nonsense, nobody is telling you to do any of that by asking for some lore.
>>43766268
Thank you for your understanding. What perks do you think the races should have?
Are there any choices that should be avoided for being too obvious?
>>43766221
Oh God, who would create such a thing as this?
It's so abstract and purposefully confusing that it lacks any interesting substance at all except to read through it the first time and groan in audible agony.
>>43766455
Shit taste detected.
>>43766400
>1. The assumptions of D&D gameplay.
elaborate
>2. Having D&D races, which are just humans with a twist.
nobody's telling you to do that
>3. No consideration for metaphysics, ethics, or anything remotely philosophical.
....where did you get that? We've had plenty of ethical considerations, I can vouch for that.
>4. Magic systems that are neither magical nor systems.
elaborate
>5. The myth of progress.
ALSO elaborate, but I think that is something that is inherently tied to your worldview.
>6. The incestuousness of inspirational sources (without even taking them to their conclusions).
you fix that problem one at a time, not by picking fights and only listening to echochambers
>>43766490
>elaborate
Violence as the ultimate solution and magic that is reliable and forgettable.
>nobody's telling you to do that
Which is why I made the new charts.
>elaborate
Magic is treated like a mass-produced good: readily available with few consequences (good or bad).
>ALSO elaborate, but I think that is something that is inherently tied to your worldview.
That populations and technologies always advance toward complexity in a linear and predictable way without ever regressing.
>you fix that problem one at a time, not by picking fights and only listening to echochambers
The 4chan questing scene is an echochamber. I'm trying to bust you all out of it.
>>43766432
Not sure. I'd need something more to go off of, I think. It's a little late at night for me to be all creative from dry.
>>43766455
Well he's a shitposter, so that's probably the reaction he wanted.
All you can do is report and hide just like any other shitpost.
>>43766620
See >>43766197
Repeating your wrong opinion doesn't make it right.
>>43766605
Check out RevolverWinds on Deviant Art.
>>43766591
>Violence as the ultimate solution and magic that is reliable and forgettable.
indeed a problem, but there are quite a few civs where people actually, you know, talk it out. Some perks encourage that by being combat focused, but most perks apply to non-violent actions.
>Magic is treated like a mass-produced good: readily available with few consequences (good or bad).
none of that is encouraged by the regular civ pics. Hell, the only thing IN the regular civ pics is who are good at it, not what it does or how its treated. I won't ask you to work with us to solve it, but you aren't the only person trying and you certainly aren't changing peoples' minds about it. Go to the worldbuilding threads or something, which, as it happens, are ENTIRELY lore. Do you see what I'm suggesting here?
>That populations and technologies always advance toward complexity in a linear and predictable way without ever regressing.
I hadn't considered that, but do you have a system that allows for such regression? There's already been talk about taking from Beyond Earth for less linear research.
>The 4chan questing scene is an echochamber. I'm trying to bust you all out of it.
>yuri, anti-yuri, autists, /a/ crowds, crossoverfags, negative nancies
all of these are Venn Diagrams.
4chan isn't united, /tg/ isn't united, "people who like quests" isn't united, and while a certain amount of tribalism occurs, going on a personal crusade against it will not, in fact, change anything. Not because you are alone, but because the cause was flawed from the get go.
Even now, dismissing other people's arguments as trolling ends the argument, and thus results in your failure to change them.
>>43766796
>4chan isn't united, /tg/ isn't united
But they are united by middle class aesthetic conventions and it is painfully obvious.
>>43766591
>Violence is the ultimate solution
How is this a D&D thing in any way? Are you going to tell me violence didn't exist before D&D?
It is also incorrect. So incorrect in fact that people often complain about excessive diplomacy when it comes up. When people complain about there being too much of a thing, that usually doesn't mean you are devoid of that thing.
Your new charts toss the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. Likely because you seem incapable of differentiating between cliches and basic logic and think that that somehow makes nonsense artistic.
>Magic is treated like a mass-produced good
This is, again, not isolated to or a result of D&D. It is also incorrect and demonstrates your lack of understanding of the medium.
>That populations and technologies always advance toward complexity in a linear and predictable way without ever regressing.
>The myth of progress
>Myth
What exactly do you expect? Are you telling me that progress is bad? That it isn't real? I can understand the notion that a civilization will regress in its technological understanding due to massive economic or cultural collapse, among other catastrophes, but for obvious reasons such things should be avoided and prevented by the players, making them better suited for prologue events, such as being the last remnants of a once great civilization, of course, that has been done before.
>The 4chan questing scene is an echochamber. I'm trying to bust you all out of it.
And you have yet to explain how. All you have done is presented a half-baked turd, which is half-baked by your own admission, and proclaim it is great. You have sucked up what few bits of praise you have received from those who think you are actually open to ideas, and you have presented none of your own in return. You are the one demanding an echo chamber and anything short of total acceptance and endless praise is shouted down.
Please adress number 3 while you're at it.
Ahahaha holy shit this asshole is still around?
Their ban for being an anti-social shitposter in the last HQQ must've ran out.
No one wants to play your shitty abstract art-school nonsense.
You give Civ players a bad name. People constantly try to lend you help, including long-time QMs, only to shit on them.
You've disrespected CyclopsOP, QuestDrone, Jyoti, SlowCM, Crog, and many others when they tried to help you out.
>>43766896
>Your new charts toss the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.
The baby is a turd and needs to be flushed.
>This is, again, not isolated to or a result of D&D.
It is most certainly a product of D&D and its legacy.
>What exactly do you expect?
I expect fragmentation, plurality, fluctuations, and ambiguity towards "improvements".
>And you have yet to explain how.
I'm showing, not telling. Pay attention.
>>43766956
And I've told you on multiple occasions that "help" isn't actually helping. I've asked for specific advice and everyone is bitching without answering.
>>43767000
Whatever loser. You can't say we didn't try to help.
Enjoy your abstract hell alone.
>>43766874
could you elaborate on aesthetic conventions, I don't want to assume too much.
>>43766989
>The baby is a turd and needs to be flushed.
Now that's not very nice. People don't change when you call them shit.
>It is most certainly a product of D&D and its legacy.
....how?
>I expect fragmentation, plurality, fluctuations, and ambiguity towards "improvements".
and how do you expect to achieve that? Established tech systems are in place because they APPROXIMATE the advance of technology. Doing it in finer detail without getting bogged down by calculations is ALWAYS appreciated, but I'd like to see how you intend to accomplish that.
>>43767000
could you give an example of a time where you've taken and implemented advice?
>>43767202
>Established tech systems are in place because they APPROXIMATE the advance of technology.
They approximate a specific (and flawed) view of technology, based on cultural norms rather than empirical data.
and from what position are you saying that, what system is BETTER than the currently established one?
>>43767240
Once again, you failed to provide anything of substance. You don't get a gold star for claiming something is a problem unless you start providing solutions.
Especially when you are the only person who thinks the thing is a problem.
Why don't you try again, and this time, focus really hard on actually answering the question.
>how do you expect to achieve that?
>>43767261
>system
That's your flaw right there.
You think it is a one-and-done solution. I'm advocating for a wider, more individual expression in general. I want all civilization quests to be their own thing, rather than an established format.
There is no need to force a strict set of standards because those will happen as a byproduct of statistics anyway. Just do *you*, not do what is expected.
>>43767287
>You don't get a gold star for claiming something is a problem unless you start providing solutions
The solution is to stop repeating the problem.
>>43767202
>....how?
Dungeons and Dragons and its computer game legacy, specifically World of Warcraft, has created a dull approach to fantasy that focuses more on acquisition than on wonder.
>could you give an example of a time where you've taken and implemented advice?
On every occasion when the advise was relevant to the issue at hand, rather than incorrect assessments of what I "should" be doing.
>>43767302
There is no standard other than what people are willing to put up with. You run it and players will come. The commonly used chart is simply a tool used by many, such as new CMs looking for something to guide them, or old CMs who want to put the choice up to the players and let them direct the situation.
Personally, I have always been an opponent of the chart itself as a whole, because it fosters conflict among players when the quest is at its most fragile. Instead, I have always advocated the CM crafting a scenario for the players to begin in and then giving the helm to the players. Forcing players to fight to the death over what they want to play as and where only adds an unnecessary crucible that the quest must endure, while an opening situation that has been crafted with care by the CM or QM will attract only the players that are willing to invest in that situation, promoting cooperation and discovery of what the setting contains.
Your solution holds the worst of all possible strategies by presenting a number of divisive options that are so vague and nondescript that the players are not even capable of fully grasping what they are even arguing over. At worst the players will just ignore it, and at best, they will simply pick options at random because they don't even know enough about the options to care.
>>43767398
>There is no standard other than what people are willing to put up with.
And that's a large part of the problem. The audience is so pedestrian in their tastes.
>>43767422
You can take your hipster trash white noise anti-art to
>>>/mu
Or you can actually respond in a way that looks like a human trying to have a conversation.
>>43767469
That board has shit taste in music. It's just a bunch of white teenagers wanking over post-rock and meme rap. The classical, jazz, and avant garde discussions are vanishingly rare.
>>43767489
This is taking so long im on my phone
>>43767302
But we already do that. The regular civ pics have no guidelines on how to go about tech.
And if system comes with so manny connotations, how about "guidelines" or just guide QUESTIONS?
>>43767515
>>43767341
Im not asking for every occasion, just the one that exemplifies the ideal you strive for.
>>43767422
Thats not even an argument
>>43767532
>And if system comes with so manny connotations, how about "guidelines" or just guide QUESTIONS?
Ehn, that's a start but it quickly returns to the default.
>>43767550
>Thats not even an argument
It is. You just dislike the implications.
>>43767580
Good, get started
>>43767534
>>43767642
>>43767635
>>43764370
that chart must be bait
>>43767770
See >>43766197
No.
>>43767830
confirmed underage bait
>>43767846
I'm old enough to be you dad.
>>43767850
then act like it
Wow a /qtg/ thread it's been long.
Civ threads seem to have declined in the past months as we all understand the devotion they require. I was actually thinking of making a thread as some kind of reunion to remember what has been gained in the ages past.
So here another topic for you QMs/CMs or alternatively players:
>What did running a civ teach you that you have not known before but you found it beneficial for your growth?
Yo homies.
A while back, when I was really into civs, I started making this. And I never finished it. So if anyone wants it, feel free to pick up where I left. Or shout at me until I resume working on it. Or tell me it's shit and nobody needs to work on it ever again.
>>43768853
Finish it you fuck stick!! That count?
Seriously though finish it it looks pretty good so far.
right, back on the computer
>>43767580
>>43767653
It seems you have forgotten the question. Again.
and from what position are you saying that, what [system, guidelines, guide questions, WHATEVER] is BETTER than the currently established one?
>>43764370
orcs
moon
>>43771228
There is no technical standard. Check out other civs, do your own thing, choose.
>>43764370
Assuming you are not a troll this entire endeavor of yours confuses me.
You claim to want individual expression but start with a chart, two ideas so directly contrasted with each other my head is fucking spinning.
Next there is the fact that your chart lacks nuance, perhaps you are going for shock value but being so devoid of any depth whatsoever does render it nigh on worthless. There is a difference between depth and limitations. Give something like a mindset of the race, or rather general inclinations.
>they like war.
has a different meaning than
>they tend towards conflict.
Give a starting point that has no real limitations and you start people on the path towards thinking in their own way with their own opinions and interpretations.
The next is that the actual numbers you have on there seemed slapped on, which hurts it far more than having no numbers at all. It makes it feel like little effort was put into making it, and general quality of the chart you use WILL impact how people perceive and wish to use it. Despite the claim that you like the subject matter of the chart, not putting effort in makes it seem like you do not actually like it, and if the person making it did not like it, why should the people who would use it like it?
Finally you cannot force your opinions and preferences on other people. Them liking things different than you doe not make their opinions inferior or less valuable in anything other than your eyes, something that matters only if they are trying to appeal to you. If this does not catch on it would be sad for the lack of enjoyment it could create, but it is not the end of the world and you can enjoy your own work without people appreciating it for you.
Definition of DADA. : a movement in art and literature based on deliberate irrationality and negation of traditional artistic values; also : the art and literature produced by this movement.
This is Dadaragons/Myrmidon/etc. They literally have a fetish for not making sense and has repeatedly attempted to force this upon others. When put up against a well-thought-out argument, they deflect, strawman, outright fabricate and redirect to /b/ when no other option presents itself. Just ignore and report like with any other troll
