These two are canonically the two most powerful Space Marine groups as is evident by fluff giving both a lot of achievements. Which of these two would come out on top if the best/most power incarnations of both went against each other?
>>43733349
Luna Wolves. Horus was a better commander than Girlyman when actually in battle, so unless we're adding in logistical concerns/post battle concerns I'm giving it to them.
>>43733349
Alpha Legion.
>>43733349
Not 100% sure but I thought Ultramarines were one of the largest Legions preheresy.
>>43734134
Largest doesn't always mean the most potent or strongest.
The Thousand Sons could be easily considered one of, if not the strongest legion and they were also the smallest.
>>43733349
With Horus' main "kill the head, slay the body" approach to warfare Gully would be fucked. His tactics and strategies are shown not to work against the Sons of Horus as he was testing his codex in staged wars. The only thing that might have changed it was if he himself fought, but Horus was a master at killing the command and beheading the leaderships of his enemies. He would kill Gully and then the Ultramarines would eventually fall.
>>43734980
>>43733430
Yeah this. Robert's advantage was his ability to work with his allies and organise/optimise their strengths across a theatre of war, while using his own men as a highly flexible, learning tactical reserve. Horus was also very good at using allies, but used them more like implements than an integral part of his force - or better all their forces - and his own force was not alround.
The Sons of Horus's specialisation was Attack, which understandable made them basically the best Legione, but it was the root of their downfall. They can conquer but they've never demonstrated an ability to truly keep, build or lead unto prosperity, at which Ultramarines distinctly excel.
>>43733349
Well, Black Legion vs. Ultramarines is easy. Ultramarines are a codex-compliant chapter, i.e. ~1000 dudes, while BL have several tens of thousand marines from various backgrounds and the largest chaos fleet of all the legions.
Lunawolves vs Ultramarines (pre-Primarch) is tricky, because we really don't have much to go by in terms of strengths and numbers back then.
Sons of Horus vs. Ultramarines is difficult to say for sure. In a straight-up slugging match it'd probably go to the SoH, but as soon as logistics, supply issues and the like are considered, it starts shifting in favor of the boys in blue.
And on the tabletop Ultramarines are always superior, since Sons of Horus have fuck-awful special rules, a pretty crap RoW and massively overcosted unique units while Black Legion is saddled with one of the worst codices out there coupled with a at best mediocre supplement.
>>43734980
>they were also the smallest.
But that's wrong. Canon smallest is Ravens.
>>43737398
No that's after Dropsite Massacre.
>>43738137
>Though the battle of Gate Forty-Two was counted as a victory by (and indeed for) the Warmaster, its effects were far reaching. The Legion's numbers were sorely depleted, leaving only 80'000 Legionaries under the Primarch's command and making it the smallest of the Legiones Astartes.
-Horus Heresy: Extermination, p.135, Raven Guard
:^')
If we're talking canonically most powerful, it'd be the Unforgiven or the Black Templars because they're far above chapter size.
>>43737383
>>43738883
Guys that's why I said both are at their best. Ultramarines numbers wise have pre-Calth numbers.
