Can anyone unironically defend Chaos from a moral point of view? I don't think there's any way you can make them as anything but the bad guys. They're literally slaves to the whims of the Ruinous Powers, which in turn are slaves to the passions that begot them. Slavery to slaves which are slaves of other slaves. This is what being Chaos is about.
Leave it to Chaos to pledge allegiance to this and still claim the moral high ground.
hello?
>>43678787
ADB clearly isn't online atm
Often, slavery to chaos is of your own doing and brought about of your own actions and ideological choices. So it's different from the slavery of the Imperium in that you get to choose your poison, to a certain extent.
>>43678832
Oh, also I forgot. For the oppressed masses of the Imperium, who have no hope of escaping the Imperium to one of the various bandit empires or what have you, chaos can potentially grant you the ability to strike back at your oppressors. Which is a short-sighted notion, but one I'd imagine would be tempting none the less.
>>43678466
Chaos doesn't discriminate. No matter who you are, you have the chance to become a follower, a champion, or possibly even a Daemon Prince if you play your cards right.
A chance at immortality, however slim, is quite alluring, and it can certainly be a better outcome than most get in the Imperium.
>>43678832
>>43678857
>>43678942
But the Imperium isn't evil... it's just tough and authoritarian because it's surrounded by evil genocidal shit from all sides and insides. The Chaos Gods can only offer fleeting depraved indulgence, and "immortality" as a daemon prince is actually just being transformed into semi-autonomous extension of your patron god.
>>43678466
No one in 40k is morally defensible, that's the point
>>43679136
Some are less morally defensible than others.
>>43679106
>But the Imperium isn't evil
Yeah, no. It's pretty evil. Many people have terrible living conditions.
Mortality on the whim of a regime or a chance at Immortality on the whim of a god.
>>43679173
this is a opinion based answer.
The whole setting is people working against their own will. Maybe its hardcore propaganda, maybe its hardwired electronics or maybe its the equivalent of magical brainwashing. Every faction is going against their own will.
well, maybe not the Dark eldar. But theyre pretty godamn evil.
personally I think Chaos is the actual neutral faction. Even in chaos their is balance. They cannot ever control more than 50% of the great game, or realspace as their power would waiver.
Chaos is true neutral, just the end product of the beginning process. Is your poop evil? No. But if you dine on human flesh and turn that into excrement? yes, thats a little bit evil.
>>43679136
>No one in 40k is morally defensible
From our current 21st-Century moral perspective, no.
But the Imperium does legitimately try to save Humanity from Cosmic Evil, the tragic thing is that the only way it can do that is be as brutal and oppressive as it currently is.
You think Inquisitors like virus-bombing billions of people because a Genestealer cult has run rampant on the planet? No, but they do it because there is no other choice.
You think people like the fact that the only way to ensure that Daemons don't rip through to reality and skullfuck everything in range is to constantly kill psykers who cannot control their powers, and that in order to power the very beacon that allows the Imperium to exist it requires near-constant fuel of Psykers? You think they like the fact that Psykers exist in the first place? No, they don't (at least at the organizational level) but they do it because they have to.
You think that the Mechanicum doesn't wish it could experiment with technology at will and develop new and incredible technological wonders? The do, but they can't, because building something wrong means it can get possessed and go on a murderfest, and it may decide to get possessed centuries down the line where it can do untold amounts of damage (Dreadclaws are an example).
What makes the 40K universe so truly Grimdark is the fact that all the light that the Imperium wants to shine on Humanity is obscured by the horrible things they have to do so that the galaxy (let alone the Human race) can keep existing.
>>43679347
This is definitely one of the more subjective aspects of the setting, but i for one agree that the Imperium is a necessary evil; and that necessity is what makes it grimdark
>>43679106
>But the Imperium isn't evil
Yes, it fucking is, and its policies are directly responsible for chaos being a tempting option. The Imperium is the demented flipper baby of Nineteen Eighty Four and a hardcore fedora tipper's view of the Catholic church in the middle ages.
>>43679347
This. Chaos is nothing more than out of control emotions. There is nothing divine about emotions.
>>43679347
>But the Imperium does legitimately try to save Humanity from Cosmic Evil, the tragic thing is that the only way it can do that is be as brutal and oppressive as it currently is.
This cosmic evil gets its power in part due to the constant misery and oppression that the Imperium creates. Also the Imperium is probably the single most successful force at destroying human life in the setting.
>>43679222
In the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, there's no time to pussy foot around with egalitarianism.
>>43679401
Funilly enough, there was a high-tech planet of humans back in the 30k era. Chaos was public knowledge, and they even had power armor.
They were doing just fine until the Imperium showed up.
The Imperium isn't a strictly necessary evil. It could have been avoided.
>>43679475
>Also the Imperium is probably the single most successful force at destroying human life in the setting.
Orks, Tyranids, and probably the Necrons say "nigga, you're an idiot".
>This cosmic evil gets its power in part due to the constant misery and oppression that the Imperium creates
Because the Cosmic Evil wants that oppression and misery to exist so it causes reasons for those things to exist.
>>43679536
>Orks, Tyranids, and probably the Necrons say "nigga, you're an idiot".
Orks and tyranids are border threats at this point. The Necrons are miniscule in number, and not concerned with wiping out humans (destroyers aside).
>Because the Cosmic Evil wants that oppression and misery to exist so it causes reasons for those things to exist.
No, that misery and oppression exists because the High Lords of Terra require it to hold on to their power.
Also, this >>43679520
40k is grimdark because it's a miserable shit-show that doesn't need to be.
>>43679592
>active necrons are miniscule in number
>>43679592
>Orks and tyranids
Say that again when Thraka unites the Orks. If you don't fight back, he makes a slave out of you. If he doesn't kill and or eat you. His boyz? They're going to shoot you for fun. The Gretchins will probably mug you.
>No, that misery and oppression exists because the High Lords of Terra require it to hold on to their power.
They're idiots! Everyone knows that.
>>43679520
>Chaos was public knowledge, and they even had power armor.
Wow! That's worst than the Imperium. Knowing about Chaos fuels it more than you would if you don't know about it. And that one civilization was asking for a raping. They were beneath the Chaos Gods' attention, and what do you think happens when the Gods are aware of you? It's soul rape time!
>>43679660
>Wow! That's worst than the Imperium. Knowing about Chaos fuels it more than you would if you don't know about it. And that one civilization was asking for a raping. They were beneath the Chaos Gods' attention, and what do you think happens when the Gods are aware of you? It's soul rape time!
>the Imperium keeps the cosmic evil from destroying humanity by oppressing them under their boot!
>this society functioned just fine until the Imperium destroyed it, with full public knowledge of Chaos
>That just proves that Chaos was going to destroy them!
Face it, the Imperium is an evil, totalitarian nightmare.
>>43679704
You didn't read the part about the acknowledging Chaos is also very bad and that the Interex was beneath the Gods' attention didn't you?
>>43679734
>technologically advanced empire that gave the Imperium under the Emperor some difficulty in conquering it
>beneath the chaos god's notice
Doesn't follow.
>>43679734
They had 30 worlds and were doing quite well for themselves.
Hell, the only reason they were wiped out was because someone in the Imperium's diplomatic envoy was secretly chaos.
Which is also similar to what happened when the Imperium encountered Eldar.
Its almost as though the Imperium is actually terrible at keeping its members from falling to chaos
>>43679783
They were a tiny empire. What? Did you think the Gods cared about the other technologically advanced civilizations in 30k? They see mortals as food, toys, and a source of entertainment and nothing more this is true, but they like to fight each other slightly more. They will stop fighting each other when something does catch their attention, and when they do, things get messy. How long do you think the Interex would have survived if the Gods wanted them dead and fast?
>>43679833
Word Bearers. Just Word Bearers.
>>43679876
>How long do you think the Interex would have survived if the Gods wanted them dead and fast?
Longer than an Imperial sector of the same size, because falling to chaos isn't an extremely tempting notion under their rule.
>>43679876
>Found out Imperial Creed was a lie to cover up the true existence of Chaos
Yeah, people tend to resent being lied to.
>>43679931
They don't really have to tempt you. They just send in the goons to rough you up.
>>43679948
Lorgar's adoptive father was worshiping the Chaos Gods from the start, and they probably got him to encourage Lorgar to go full Lorgar. Erebus? I'm not entirely sure when he was corrupted. May Kor Phaeron did it, or he was always corrupted.
>>43679876
They were a fair match for the Luna wolves, and they just had power armor, not even space marines.
>>43679987
>They just send in the goons to rough you up.
Interex would still have the edge as their troops would have better morale and equipment.
>>43680000
>>43680005
And what about the daemons' abilities? Before anyone asks, yes I think the Changling has a cell phone.
>>43679987
Tangential, I know, but why did the Emperor make a primarch whose "thing" was being really religious if he hated religion so much?
>>43680071
>but why did the Emperor make a primarch whose "thing" was being really religious if he hated religion so much?
But he didn't though. Lorgar was the most corrupted Primarch, and it was his homeworld that made Lorgar that way besides the seeds of corruption planted by the Gods. That's like saying Emps made Sang with wings and Angron with the nails from the start.
>>43680043
Daemons dont just randomly pop up in realspace. Otherwise there would be millions of them on Holy Terra right away.
>>43679432
Except everything the Imperium does is justified by the surrounding world. When the survival of humanity is on the line, everything becomes an acceptable loss to preserve the species.
>>43680119
They do when they have the following:
1: An artifact gets activated that opens a portal.
2: One of the Gods opens the portal for them and goes "Go my minions! Rise for your master! Let your evil shine!" or something else very predictable
3: Psykers.
>>43680133
We've been over this. There are other ways to protect humanity and the Imperium's policies actually worsen its situation. It's a bloated, dying hulk of an empire.
>>43680143
The conditions for Daemonic Incursion tend to be very narrow. Either way, saying the Interex would just crumble to it is a bit like saying the Imperium or Eldar would.
>>43680160
Except there aren't. The other civilizaitons such as the Interex would have gotten wiped the fuck out by the Tyranids, and had they tried to grow to the size of the Imperium to defend against such threats, would have died from the temptations of Chaos just like Great Crusade humanity.
Remember, while the Interex were peaceful, they were fucking nobodies ultimately who wouldn't have stood a chance against the Beast, the Tyranid Hive Fleets, or the true might of Chaos being unleashed after the God Emperor played his hand (and failed). The only way the small civilizations could have survived the future without the Imperium is if they basically hid under a rock and prayed nobody looked under it.
>>43680181
And it's not just daemons in the Warp. Enslavers, vampires, psychic wasps, ect.
>>43680114
So it was by the whims of Chaos that each primarch was raised to be perfect for their designated role?
This was all the Emperor's keikaku, wasn't it?
>>43680209
And? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.
>>43680194
There's absolutely no evidence to lead to that conclusion. The fall of the Great Crusade was directly the fault of the Emperor's bad decisions.
Man, I'll never understand why people rush to defend the Imperium. It can't be HFY, because they're constantly killing humans and destroyed several successful human empires.
>>43678466
Every faction is more or less uncaring and will treat their people like shit. Even as an eldar or tau you are cannon fodder and have the duty to get eaten by tyranids for the greater good or your farseer.
If my fate is to die horribly (or suffer all my life in endless wars) i might aswell pursue the slight chance of winning the ultimate jackpot that is demonhood.Also, Khorne is metal as fuck
>>43680214
No. He didn't want the Gods to steal his boys, and he fought back to get them back. The Chaos Gods lacked the resources to destroy the Primarchs and hoped if they flung them far enough Emps would be out of luck. He tried protecting them when they were flung, but stopped when presumably he thought they could land on their own without him. Emps would have made more primarchs if he had the time, but there was a power gap that needed to be filled quickly.
>>43680222
>destroyed several successful human empires.
How could they be successful if they were destroyed?
>>43680295
They weren't equipped to deal with a psychic monster and his army of genetic freaks, but their kept their people safe through one of the most turbulent and difficult times of humanity's existence. Pound for pound, they were also probably substantially more effective than the resulting Imperium owing to the fact they weren't run by retards.
>>43680337
And how effective would they be against Orks, the Eldar, Crons, and Nids. I could seem them getting along with the Tau.
>>43680377
More effective than an Imperial sector of the same size.
>>43680337
Except they aren't. Humanity divided would have simply been devoured come M40 by the Nids. The entire point of the Great Crusade was to unite humanity to prevent that from happening, and it worked. While mankind lives under a highly oppressive government, it has managed to weather everything the galaxy has thrown at it.
None of those Empires were successful or even important. You're basically trying to claim that not only does North Korea matter, but somehow it would have managed to survive America declaring total war and nuking it to oblivion. The civs such as the interex are pathetic dots on the map and their military might ultimately worthless on the galactic scale. Humanity would have been dead and/or enslaved by M35 had it not been for the Imperium of Man.
>>43680383
You don't know about the Blood Ravens do you? Or what happens when the Imperium stops being an idiot for a week.
>>43680383
Except you have no evidence for this, as everything actively points against it. The reason why the tiny civs failed in the first place is because their military power was fucking pathetic. The leadership of the Imperium is also hardly "retarded", considering the Imperium has fathered the greatest generals in the entire galaxy of every race.
>>43678466
If anything, all but followers of Nurgle are batshit crazy and interested in wrecking the universe. Nurgle followers are just part of the natural order of life and death. If anything, they're true neutral.
I can see the IIDF is fully active in this thread.
>>43678466
Chaos is simply a reflection of the soul of man. Why is it evil to accept who you are? Isn't the greater evil denying and repressing it?
>>43680420
Fuck these thieving magpies.
>>43680071
Because Lorgar's main thing was seemingly going to be a proselytizer of the Imperial Creed and for the Imperium.
A big thing about Lorgar is that he never wanted to be a fighter or general, it's why Magnus was the closest of his brother to him.
>>43680471
>Why is it evil to accept who you are?
...Because everyone "accepting" their greed, selfishness, and rage leads to societal collapse and a whole lot of people dying.
>>43680471
What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?
>>43680471
Careful, you might cut yourself on that edge.
>>43680532
But maybe that is the true state of man. Chaos is the human soul made manifest, the brutal repression of the imperium is failing, and for a reason - it is an unnatural state, trying to hold back humanity from what it really is
>>43680522
He also started a rilgious war on his homeworld, and did a modern 40k Imperium on worlds that didn't want to worship the Emperor.
>>43680504
Dow 3 is coming up. Let's see how many new gifts they'll be using this time. I'm hoping Thaddeus, Tarkus, and Davian come back.
>>43680538
The unnatural repression of the human soul is good, is it? And freedom is bad?
>>43680569
>But maybe that is the true state of man. Chaos is the human soul made manifest, the brutal repression of the imperium is failing, and for a reason - it is an unnatural state, trying to hold back humanity from what it really is
Wow! You totally forget that it's not humanity's fault that Chaos exists. There was a little thing called the War in Heaven that tainted the Warp, and there was a group of faggots called the Eldar who decided "Guys, we need to be bigger fagots!" and created the Chaos God of Faggotry, Slaanesh.
>>43680594
>freedom
Something the Chaos Gods hate. They want domination over everything, and there's a little title called "slaves to darkness" that is Chaos followers. You lose your free will if you become a daemon. You become an aspect of your patron god(s), and you are forever tied to them. You can't even see the strings you little puppet.
>>43680614
It didn't taint the warp, it populated it. Populated it with the reflections of the souls of beings who possessed them. The warp is the other half of existence. Denying it is living a half life
>>43680654
I believe there is a little bit of lore saying the C'tan may have known what would have happened after the War in heaven. Or that might have been the Old Ones.
>>43680594
Choosing the course of your own life rather than giving in to genetic destiny is the highest expression of freedom.
>>43680645
Chaos hates freedom, does it? Chaos represses knowledge, life, options, opportunities? Or is that the imperium? Chaos *is* man. How can you be a slave to yourself? The flipside of freedom is consequence. Many are unable to master themselves and suffer. Others are, and do not. All should have the freedom to choose
>>43680691
What about no choice at all? That is the freedom the imperium grants man
>>43680709
>Chaos hates freedom, does it?
They do. Why are Chaos followers called "Slaves to Darkness" if the Chaos Gods don't hate freedom?
>All should have the freedom to choose
Hear me out. What if no one has the right to become a daemon? And that you aren't a special snowflake? And that to be human is to die knowing that someone will continue your work?
Well the Emperor got his powers from the Chaos Gods, he literally went all Archaon when he walked through the Gateway in Molech, he bargained with the gods for his powers, then proceeds to loose his children that he created through this powers to cause the situation that the galaxy is in.
The Emperor is literally a shill for the gods who created the fucked up situation of the 40K setting which is apprently feeding into the gods.
Everyone is a puppet of the gods because they control the warp and warp is the source of all power to powerful beings in the galaxy, thus it is fair to say that they are simply orchestrating ALL events within the universe, including those who seek to destroy chaos, which is what chaos would do because it is unbiased even unto itself.
>>43680739
Inquisitors and Rogue Traders. That is all.
>>43680800
>Everyone is a puppet of the gods
Not true. They lack true free will.
>>43680765
I don't have a strong opinion on whether this is true or not, but I think "Slaves to Darkness" might be a propaganda term coined by the Imperium.
Most fluff seems to be written from an Imperial perspective.
>>43680765
Then you should embrace being a unthinking worm, a mindless cog. That is your choice. But others may choose enlightenment
>>43680709
i'm a chaos fanboy but that makes no fucking sense
>"How can you be a slave to yourself?"
Of cource you can be a slave to your own emotions. Ever heard of the 7 deadly sins?
Also, as a servant of chaos, unless you are a chaos lord or independed cult leader you will almost certainly have to take orders from other, stronger mortals.
Chaos isnt about moral or freedom, its about power and opportunity.
>>43680814
A privileged few amongst untold billions? Why is one man more deserving of freedom than another?
>>43680829
>I don't have a strong opinion on whether this is true or not, but I think "Slaves to Darkness" might be a propaganda term coined by the Imperium.
It's not. It's not.
>>43680835
And what you call enlightenment is called mutation, inability, slavery, and being an over emotional edgelord.
>>43680867
Because maybe the job allows him to have it?
More Slaves to Darkness.
>>43680800
BL shills get out
>>43678466
Its more freedom than the Imperium.
No one is safe from Order. No matter who you are, you can and will be knocked down a peg, Mr/Mrs. Chaosslave. It will happen one day, maybe not today but it will.
>>43680572
To be honest I have to wonder how much of the war on Colchis was Lorgar and how much was Kor Phaeron. The beginning of Aurelian has Lorgar more concerned with half of a city being ablaze and saying he doesn't wish to rule while Kor Phaeron is seemingly getting matters in order and mentions having just given Lorgar a world.
>>43680800
The Emperor didn't get his power from the gods, only a certain power/knowledge. The rulebook in BaC reaffirms he was a powerful psyker long before the Age of Strife.
>The Imperium was forged in the fires of battle, shaped by an aeon of warfare that saw Humanity's scattered worlds melded into a single mighty realm. The founder of this glorious age was the Emperor of Mankind, a being of immeasurable power and presence. Thousands of years old even when the Warp storms around Terra still raged, the Emperor was a psyker powerful beyond mortal reckoning.
>>43680907
>a bisexual humanoid, male on the left side and female on the right
That's... not what that means, old 40k.
>>43680857
A person *is* their thoughts and emotions, wrapped up a a pile of meat. You cannot be a 'slave' to the constituent elements of your being except to the extent that you cannot control that aspect of yourself. Which is your failure. It is not the same as another having dominion over you, kid
>>43681002
Woops. I forgot my picture. Please forgive me.
>>43680890
You are advocating unthinking submission as freedom. Who gets to decide? Does each decide their fate, or is it decided for them by their self-appointed rulers?
>>43681025
Listen, bub, you're lost and damned, a slave, and one of the billions of pawns that the Chaos Gods don't care about.
>>43681005
>To be honest I have to wonder how much of the war on Colchis was Lorgar and how much was Kor Phaeron. The beginning of Aurelian has Lorgar more concerned with half of a city being ablaze and saying he doesn't wish to rule while Kor Phaeron is seemingly getting matters in order and mentions having just given Lorgar a world.
Maybe it was both?
>The Emperor didn't get his power from the gods, only a certain power/knowledge.
This is what I have a problem with. The whole deal with Chaos mess. That whole mess? It's rather unnecessary.
>>43681104
>You are advocating unthinking submission as freedom.
Which is what a Chaos Lord tells his minions why they should follow him.
>Does each decide their fate, or is it decided for them by their self-appointed rulers?
Again, Chaos also does this.
>>43680814
>Not true. They lack true free will.
so does everyone else, free will is just a illusory device used to reconcile certain theories about reality.
>>43681130
Then they may choose not to follow that path. Is their any greater crime against freedom though, than denying the knowledge that the path even exists?
>>43680960
Codex shills please leave.
>>43681108
>It's rather unnecessary.
How else do you expect the Emperor to create souls?
>>43681005
>The rulebook in BaC reaffirms he was a powerful psyker long before the Age of Strife.
That fact is not denied in the Molech situation either, he just got all his godlike more powerful than most primarchs status by bargaining those powers from the gods.
>>43681167
Says you.
>>43681177
Have you ever thought of that some things weren't meant to be known? That maybe Chaos just wants to destroy reality? And then we get an AoS version of 40k?
>>43681189
He could have just taken itty bitty pieces of his own soul to use for the Primarchs.
>>43678466
Chaos is the path for the Apotheosis of mankind, and ultimately there are those within the Inquisition terribly split on this dilemma.
While the vast majority of the Imperium sees Chaos as a corruption, for the rest it is an ascension, a power that would realize the Emperor's dream of humanity's manifest destiny across the galaxy. Indeed, let us not forget for is myriad of enemies the forces of Chaos have ever been the gravest threat to the Imperium of Man.
Of course, there is the question of mastery. Could mankind as a whole bend their dark reflection in the warp to be a tool, a servant to propagate it's will forward, or would we break underneath the horrors we spawned, and merely consume the galaxy at the whims of the laughing Gods?
It's debatable. Chaos can obviously be harnessed, and countless times cultists have summoned daemons to combat the Imperium only to have them cut down by the would-be saviors. But then there are also the fanatics and zealots who are daemonkin, fighting beside these unknowable horrors without issue.
Some fight for glory and immortality, and some even fight for righteous causes and recognizable forms of morality, (still trying to remember the book where Chaos Space Marines liberated an Imperial world from xeno control, because at the end of the day we're all human, and xenos have no place in the galaxy of the faithful OR the heretic) but the vast majority simply cannot stand the oppression and heartlessness of the Imperium, and risk everything for a chance at something better, and even when they succeed the outcome is often something far, far worse.
>>43681536
>Chaos is the path for the Apotheosis of mankind
Nah. That's the golden path the Emperor laid down for humanity.
>Could mankind as a whole bend their dark reflection in the warp to be a tool, a servant to propagate it's will forward, or would we break underneath the horrors we spawned, and merely consume the galaxy at the whims of the laughing Gods?
Ordo Hydra tried that. They would have probably created an artificial daemon that could possibly kill the Chaos Gods and their realms, but then again it would also create a fifth major Chaos God and destroy reality. As the Chaos Gods slowly die the last thing they would say is "Suckers".
>>43681677
Probably worth mentioning there are at least two sects of Inquisitors who think that since the Golden Path is a no-go, harnessing Chaos is the only way to save the Imperium. But I get what you're saying. This path is far darker than what the Emperor had in mind, but given the choice between using Chaos to conquer the galaxy and extinction...
And I'm really caught on the idea of the consent of harnessing Chaos as a whole. Perhaps a unified Imperium could do such a thing, but as it stands it's stated in the last two Daemon codices that if the Emperor were to biff it right now every man, woman, and child would become a warp gate for daemons to spill through, which would presumably wipe the galaxy clean in another Enslaver Plague-eque manner.
>>43681778
It'll never happen. GW loves Chaos and Big Four too much for them to ever be slaves. Even if did seem to happen it'd just be some stupid 'You thought you were controlling us, but we were actually controlling you!' bullshit.
>>43681778
Anon, you forget the Emperor's gift to the galaxy. Humanity must become like the Grey Knights. The men and women in red robes who probably have sex with your Leman Russ in your spare time have found a STC that could help humanity out with the psyker problem. More Grey Knights, less problems.
Given enough time, all systems trend toward chaos and away from order. Chaos is inevitability and it's better to gain the favor of the gods while you have the chance.
>>43681833
True enough. It's only interesting to think of what might happen simply because there never will be an answer for it.
>>43681851
You've lost me.
>>43681249
Right back at ya.
>>43681865
But Chaos is self destructive, and you will be trapped when that happens. The Gods won't help you.
>>43681877
Fluff about the AdMech searching for a STC that can help out humanity on it's psychic dawn. Problem is it might just happen to be on a daemon world. Yeah. Fingers crossed that nothing bad happens.
>>43681892
Nice picture.
>>43681851
>Be like the Grey Knights
You mean the Grey Knights that were so weak-willed they had to murder Sisters of Battle and cover themselves in their blood to give themselves courage? Nevermind the fact that some of those very Sisters were able to withstand what those Grey Knights could not?
>>43681912
I'm unfamiliar with this psychic dawn. Something to make an average human as psychically potent as an Eldar?
Even if that were the case, incorruptibility is a a trait far and in between, and even a Grey Knight, incorruptible though they may be, can still be forcefully used as a gateway for the things of the warp. I don't think that's the solution to the chaos problem you think it is, or I'm misunderstanding.
ITT: right-wing vs left-wing
>>43681959
>quoting a retconned event
If you are going to do this, then let's just say the Imperium should somehow toss the Tau at Chaos and have them kill the Gods. They've already bagged Slaanesh, what's another three gods?
>>43681985
In case you hadn't noticed, Emps is kind of a moron. Are you really surprised his plans are stupid and wrong?
>>43681959
Matt Ward is probably laughing about the skub he caused with the Khornate Knights ordeal. The more we discuss it, the harder his boner becomes.
>>43681985
>I'm unfamiliar with this psychic dawn.
Humanity is evolving into a fully psychic race. This is what rustled the Emperor's jimies back when he was in his prime. He didn't think humanity was ready to have psykers but enough of that. If humanity can have complete psychic mastery things would improve for the Imperium.
>>43678466
>Can anyone unironically defend Chaos from a moral point of view?
Sure, here are the moral ideals Chaos resonates with.
1. Truth: Chaos is in-arguably a fundamental aspect of the Warhammer 40K universe. Denying it is weak-minded and self-deceptive. Honest people accept reality, and reflect reality in their statements and actions; Chaos is part of 40K's reality.
2. Meritocracy: Chaos not only allows talented individuals to gain wealth and power, it can even make them immortal. Yes the weak and ill-disciplined suffer and fall, but that is true of any social system and ultimately.
3. Generosity: Chaos may destroy the weak, but it offers them power first. The weak either reject that power out of fear, or prove unable to wield it effectively.
4. Collective Survival: Morality is ultimately a set of social instincts meant to enable group survival and thriving. The Imperium is failing, beset on all sides by enemies it cannot overcome, like the Necrons and the Tyranids. Humanity will need the power of Chaos if it is to survive in the long term.
>>43682034
I'm in agreement with you, but only because we still have the emperor. But having a fully awakened psychic humanity would also make the Chaos Gods unimaginably stronger.
I mean, even at their height, the Eldar weren't nearly as populous or far spread as the Imperium now is, and it was them alone who awoke the fourth God.
And since a pitiful psyker's soul has 100 times the impact (bright flame against a damp spark I think the comparison goes) having every human as a Psyker would be like introducing enough power to turn the Pantheon of four into four hundred.
>>43682062
Chaos is truth, chaos is light.
Plus all who have opposed chaos has failed in the long game.
>>43682105
Yeah, Emps knew that would be a problem. He planned on humanity controlling its emotions, the Chaos Gods responded with for all intents and purposes "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!". The spoiled brats don't want anyone having nice things but themselves.
>>43682105
>turn the Pantheon of four into four hundred.
Good. All the infighting they're gonna get into will render them effectively useless.
>>43679347
> Be Imperium
> Stop being ferocious ceramite dicks and consider to be nice with Tau and Eldars
> Tau piss themselves in joy, Eldars piss themselves because they have a fetish for it
> Send the Tau, a highly chaos-resilient race, fight chaos for them
> Get friends with Earth Caste, or send a few Blood Ravens on Tau worlds for a vacation
> Gain cannon fodder, advanced technology (Even if they don't use AIs, the Adeptus Mechanicus would still get hard just by looking at Tau tech) and stop wasting ressources and manpower on the Eastern fringe of the Galaxy to focus on something way more problematic.
Honestly, I can't understand why the Imperium doesn't cooperate with the Tau. I'm not talking about siding with them, but at least exchanging knowledge, weapons, or even mutual protection.
>>43682131
Say that again when the Imperium and Eldar, and probably Tau, bring out all of their cheesiest weapons. Do you want to be staring down the barrel of all that cheese at one place at one time? Grav Centurioans/Devastators, Wraithguards, and the Tau's biggest and newest battlesuit made by GW that will destroy your wallet, and ruin friendships all fighting for the same reason. Screw Chaos.
>>43682171
This. Chaos infighting is second nature. And it's going to be Khorne who starts it all because he can't stand any other Chaos God being tied in first place like him.
>>43682171
>>43682213
> Chaos infighting
Wouldn't that be the return of Malal?
>>43680765
the imperials call them slaves to darkness, you have no idea the pleasure and absolute freedom, actually, thats a good topic, you people say that we are slaves that dont see the strings that bind us, well, if we can not see the strings, then is it not virtual freedom?
>>43682213
>>43682171
>>43682228
Problem is, unless this happened very, very suddenly the four would seize this power for themselves instead of letting this power coalesces into a new entity. They don't want any more competition than they already have.
Plus they cover the basic gamut of human vices, so really it would more of just be amplifying their power was my point.
>>43682228
Nope. Great Game. Malal wanted to destroy everything because he was the God of Destruction including self destruction. The other Chaos Gods kind of didn't like Malal because of that.
>>43682238
>the imperials call them slaves to darkness,
The realm of Chaos book was called Slaves to Darkness. It had information on WHFB and 40k.
>if we can not see the strings, then is it not virtual freedom?
No. That's the bad thing. You can't even see the strings.
>>43682185
>Say that again when the Imperium and Eldar, and probably Tau, bring out all of their cheesiest weapons. Do you want to be staring down the barrel of all that cheese at one place at one time? Grav Centurioans/Devastators, Wraithguards, and the Tau's biggest and newest battlesuit made by GW that will destroy your wallet, and ruin friendships all fighting for the same reason. Screw Chaos.
Yea but all of that exist in reality and are far and few in between, and all in probably a single battlefield, and all of that dependant on laws defined by reality. Chaos will just make it unreal and more than half will go mad and kill the other half.
So yea, chaos win ALWAYS. Its like a bad stain that can never been removed because its been around way too long.
And I personally believe that tyranid is universal stain remover.
>>43682283
There are other realities. The Chaos Gods know this, and they fondly regard the fact that there are infinite realities for them to destroy.
>>43682259
>Plus they cover the basic gamut of human vices
If I recall, the Emperor told everyone to stop believing at some point. This almost birthed a Chaos God of Unbelief of all fucking things. This could still be possible.
>>43682314
Age of Sigmar canon is not 40K canon or we're going to have alot more problems than just this.
Like Slaanesh being carted away. They're two separate settings.
>>43682340
I HAVE FAITH IN THE GOD OF UNBELIEF.
Man that would be such a messed up religion.
>>43678466
SHUT UP! NO CARES!
>>43682340
>This almost birthed a Chaos God of Unbelief of all fucking things. This could still be possible.
That's not actual canon. That's fanon from IFTEHATTSD. Aflbusa.
>>43682341
The settings aren't connected. It's a different Warp, but similar things. But yet this picture from WHFB has the Eye of Terror in it.
>>43680960
>using "who" as a direct object in a sentence
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>43682395
GW can fail at many things, and this surprises you?
>>43682388
Given 40k's approach to what is and isn't canon, it might as well be.
>>43682388
>Text-To-Speech
Welp. Didn't know that.
>Eye of Terror
I'm pretty sure they aren't the same Eye of Terror. There has to be a place called Eye of Terror in both settings.
>>43682418
And I remembered this. Daemons are apparently the same characters in both settings.
>>43682437
Daemons are the same according to WD. I still want to know why that moon is called the Bad Moon. Why is it bad? What's the deal with that Citadel of the Iron Knight? Who is the Iron Knight? Is he a Man of Iron who was a not! Donne Quoite who became a DP of Tzeentch?
>>43682355
>>43682340
>>43682388
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNoQ5NY7Z_8
>>43682388
Fuuuck my head. And this is par for course in Tzeentch's land.
>>43682496
>>43682388
I didn't realize the Bad Moon was an actual thing. I thought it was just an ork clan. Now I want to know about this angry man in the moon.
>>43682496
That doesn't look too screwy. What's hilarious is the Lair of the Thirteenth Lord. The Horned Rat is living in Nurgle's basement.
>>43682459
I love how the other Gods have cool names for their personal abodes but Slaanesh only has "Palace of Slaanesh"
>>43682524
I think it's that moon in WHFB that's made out of Warpstone.
>>43682535
Slaanesh has to earn the right to think of cool names.
>>43682535
Because he is the most vain.
>>43682527
Pre-Age of Sigmar, the Horned Rat was one of the Greater Demons of Nurgle.
I believe he represented Blight. Now, however, Skaven Blight is part of the Realm of Chaos.
The whole damn City which the Skaven promptly dug into the obscure geometries between the RoC and the Mortal Realms.
Which, strangely, gave them the power to Teleport anywhere in the Mortal Realms.
>>43682558
That Moon was in realspace. The Skaven blew it up.
>>43682418
>Given 40k's approach to what is and isn't canon
Which is that GW decides and can change things to suit their whims.
>>43682593
>the Horned Rat was one of the Greater Demons of Nurgle.
He wasn't, in fact there was little to no connection between the Skaven and Chaos for a long time.
>>43682593
It's funny because he's living in his old man's basement. Tzeentch wants nothing to do with his lovechild, and will never pay child support.
>>43682595
I think the Bad Moon represents it though.
Hold on, the text says a dude actually walked through all that shit and mapped everything.
Who was that dude? Fucking Draigo?
>>43682632
The author of the Liber Chaotica in-universe. He also thinks Nurgle has no redeeming features, and drew a piture of an angry looking tree Khorne owns called the Tree of Souls.
>>43679136
Tau were in 3rd edition, but they weren't happy with the lack of grimdark.
>>43682527
Does Nurgle have Isha in a cage in WFB/AoS too?
>>43682632
Canonically, also the only person in existence to correctly answer all 9 unknowable riddles of Tzeench and earn the right to [I forget, make a wish, ask him a question, some shit] was a defenseless little girl.
Somehow an innocent child wandered her way into the realms of chaos and gained access to the Impossible Fortress.
>>43682676
She didn't actually answer the 9 riddles. The Guardian of the Maze said the girl "cheated"
>>43682676
>Does Nurgle have Isha in a cage in WFB/AoS too?
It was Shallya
>>43682676
>>43682632
Found it: was from last edition Daemon codex,
Legends tell of an entity known as "The Guardian of the Maze" that inhabits the Crystalline Labyrinth. Though his name implies that he serves as the protector of Tzeentch's realm, he is said to function more as a gatekeeper and observer. Rumours tell of a path through Tzeentch's realm that, in theory, anyone, mortal or daemon, may follow to discover infinite knowledge. To follow this path, the inquisitive pilgrim must travel through nine gates. These portals, three times the height of a man, appear as golden arches wreathed in the blue and pink Warpfire of Tzeentch. Such is the power of the Guardian of the Maze, or perhaps it is the bizarre temporal nature of Tzeentch's twisting realm itself, that the Guardian manifests as a giant disembodied mouth hovering above all nine gates simultaneously. At each gate, the mouth ponderously speaks, asking those seekers of knowledge one of the nine hundred and ninety-nine Riddles of Tzaratxoth. Those who answer the riddles correctly may pass through the gates and continue along the path to ultimate enlightenment. Those who fail to answer correctly are doomed to wander the labyrinth for all eternity wracked with insanity and regret over the infinite knowledge that might have been theirs. Legend tells of one being -- the only one in all history, who answered all nine of the questions correctly. Strangely, many versions of the story posit that this individual appeared in the guise of a young girl who was accompanied by a small black dog. Factions within the Ordo Malleus wage vicious scholarly battles over the hidden significance of this tale, or if the tale actually happened, or was yet another metaphorical wisp of smoke from the Master of Lies.
>>43682700
That was when Tzeench itself asked the Guardian what happened, because no one had ever passed the trial. The Guardian is full of bullshit.
>>43682700
Within the convoluted labyrinth of Tzeentch, it is said there is one true path to infinite knowledge that any creature, mortal and daemonic, can follow. This road leads through nine gates, each barred against entry. The gates appear as golden arches thrice the height of a man, wreathed with purple, blue, and pink fire. At each gate stands the Guardian of the maze, little more than a giant mouth in appearance. The nature of the Guardian is such that it stands watch over all nine gates at the same time.
When someone approaches one of the gates, the Guardian poses them a question, one of the Nine Hundred and Ninety Nine Riddles of Tzaratxoth. The Guardian itself has no ears and can never hear the reply, and so can never tell the secret to anyone, but the enchantment of the gates means they will open on the correct reply. The riddles are said to be so tazing that only the greatest lateral and logical thinkers can discern their answer. The Guardian swallows whole those that give an incorrect response!
Legends tell that only one challenger, clad in the guise of a young girl with a little black dog, managed to make her way through all of the gates. When Tzeentch questioned him about this failure, the Guardian accused her of cheating.
>>43680614
Chaos in 30K and 40K is the reflection of the human soul. Chaos is 99% fueled by humanity.
It gone to the point that when Tau were fighting a daemon incursion, the daemons were yelling and speaking in Low Gothic.
Pretending that Chaos is not he fault of humanity is dishonest at the extreme. Without humanity, there would be no great danger from Chaos.
>>43682925
>It gone to the point that when Tau were fighting a daemon incursion, the daemons were yelling and speaking in Low Gothic.
Oh man, can I get a citation for that?
Not contesting you, it's just as a daemon player I think that's awesome, and would love to see the source.
>>43682388
Daily quest complete.
>>43682957
Farsight Enclave supplement.
The Arthas Molach battle.
>>43682733
>>43682787
How did the Guardian "fail"? It offered the questions, was given the answers. It basically did its job.
Also, it's a waste of time anyways. The Impossible Fortress is, well, impossible to exist in without getting destroyed by a passing thought. Only the Big Birds can travel through it.
>>43682982
Thanks man.
>>43678466
Not really possible from a moral point of view. Not sure why youd even ask that question.
>>43682982
For reference, those daemons were screaming "Blood for the Blood God!"
Farsight was there and should've recognized if there were humans with the daemons. He didn't, so there weren't.
>>43682983
Draigo traveled through it.
Skarbrand and a Chaos spawn were trapped in it for sometime before breaking out.
Khornate legions during the battle over the Ebon Sword smashed it to pieces.
>In the realm of flesh, sentient life is born ensouled. In the realm of raw thought, all life is soulless. But both are alive. The Born and the Neverborn, on both sides of reality. Destined for symbiosis. Destined for union.
-----------------------
>Chaos seeks symbiosis with life: the Ensouled and the Neverborn in natural harmony. Union. Faith. Power, Lorgar. Immortality and endless possibility. Sensations beyond mortal comprehension. The ability to feel maddening delight at any agony. The gift of ecstasy even when you are destroyed, making even death a great joke, knowing you will incarnate in another form over and over until the suns themselves go black.
>And when the stars die, Chaos still lives on in the cold – still perfect, still exultant, still pure. This is everything humanity has ever dreamed of – to be unchallenged in the galaxy, to be omnipotent above all other life, and to be eternal.
-From "Aurelian"
There is.
All you need to do is open any book featuring Lorgar.
>>43683115
Even after having read The First Heretic and Aurelian half a year ago, I still can't decide whether Lorgar was right or not.
I mean, it all sounds great on paper, but the actual *expression* of Chaos is so batshit insane and murderous that it becomes impossible to take them seriously. If Old Colchis worshipped Chaos in a more humane manner, can't we stick to that and have a functioning Imperium rather than turn everyone into screaming patchworks of tortured flesh and vinegar?
>>43678466
Are you familiar with Kierkegaard? I think his understanding of piety might be a justification. Essentially he argues that all gods are arbitrary by definition, but bring pious is a trust in the divine. The thing with chaos is that it's undeniably real. It may not matter that it's horrible and arbitrary, divinity demands worship by virtue of its existence. Kierkegaard piety I think is what ADB was exploring in First Heretic.
So let me get this straight.
You call Chaos evil because people suffer by it.
Yet you defend the Imperium for acting in almost the same way because the setting demands it?
![1319774146127[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/2pQ7GBs.png "1319774146127[1].png")
>>43683476
>Yet you defend the Imperium for acting in almost the same way because the setting demands it?
Yeah but the Imperium doesn't sacrifice people to baseless whims.
>>43678466
Well, there can't be Order without Chaos. No love without hate, etc.
Doesn't really need to be justified past that imo.
>>43683501
>Yeah but the Imperium doesn't sacrifice people to baseless whims.
Totally wasnt a tzeentch puppet, totally not like Abyssal Crusade where massive military resources were wasted.
Yea imperium is Great.
>>43678466
>ITT: imperials #btfo
>>43683594
Well, considering that the chaos gods are incarnations of positive emotions and aspects (such as joy, progress, security and will) the comparison is more restraint/discipline vs freedom. Too much of either is unhealthy, but a balance of both yields amazing results.
>>43679592
> orks
> being a border threat
Nigga orks are fucking everywhere.
>>43679704
It totally is. Imperium is evil by necessity. Chaos is evil by nature and choice. Eldar are evil for shits and giggles.
Everyone in warhammer is evil. That's why its called grimdark
>>43682105
This is a great pic. Is it from C:KDk?
>>43678466
Chaos is truth, nothing more, nothing less. It is neither good nor evil, but a fact so fundamental to existence that it transcends anything so artificial as morality.
Not everyone is ready to embrace the truth. In fact, very few are willing to let go of the constraints of their mortal form, even if they are willing to walk the path. They dabble, they dip, but they cannot bring themselves to dive in. These are the cultists, the mortal chaos marines, the footsoldiers of Chaos. Those who have seen the truth but who cannot quite comprehend - and thus cannot progress along the path without falling to mutation or possession. But those who have truly purified themselves of the conceptual barriers imposed on them by the physical universe would be able to step into the warp naked, to become a true creature of Chaos. Those who are willing to walk the path to its inevitable conclusion will become one with the truth.
Those whose minds are still caged call them daemons, call them slaves. But in reality they are the freest of all, for there are no more barriers between them and the truth of existence. They are consciousness in its purest form, truly free from all the false laws imposed on them by the illusion that is the physical universe.
Embrace the truth, or do not. But the thing about truth is that it is still true whether you believe it or not. Whatever form it takes, the Warp will always be there. When the stars gutter and die, and the Imperium of Man is not even the memory of dust, the Warp will still be there.
Always.
>>43683115
>>43683271
Problem is that even Lorgar hated the "truth" he was tasked to enlighten humanity with; but he decided it was better than humanity living under a lie and destroying itself like the Eldar (or so they say).
But considering the Gods are a bunch of fucking liars, a fact that Lorgar himself later becomes aware of. Calls a lot of that "symbiosis" shit into question.
The only case of that seemingly working well was Argel Tal and Raum; where it was a genuinely cooperative existence.
>>43679347
One of the problems with the 40K setting is the near total absence of consistency in the way the various factions and institutions are represented.
Is the Inquisition a collection of men and women who have looked into the void and seen what survival entails in the face of an openly hostile universe, or are they slavering lunatics ready to nuke a planet for having a handful of cultists on it?
Are the commissars stern, fearless individuals chosen for their faith and courage to inspire their men, or slack-jawed idiots waiting for an excuse to shoot one of their underlings in the head?
Are the space marines, humble, noble supersoldiers who stand ready as a bulwark against forces that would wipe out humanity, ready to sacrifice themselves at a moment's notice, or are they blood-thirsty power-armored savages that look down their noses at regular humans and count their lives as practically worthless?
Is the human military the most powerful fighting force in the galaxy, able to crush its enemies under the boots of billions of soldiers and the treads of millions of tanks, or is it a collection of weaklings who can barely hold their enemies at bay?
Finally, is chaos a hidden, invisible, insidious threat that most humans don't know about and haven't even heard of, or is it a massive military force that can rival the Imperium and engages with them in massive pitched battles on a regular basis? I mean, there's stories of the Imperium slaughtering anyone who even learns of chaos, just to be sure, but if you did that to everyone who fought chaos during one of the black crusades, you wouldn't have any soldiers left.
I know the excuse is, "Well it's a big universe, so the answer is whatever you want it to be." but that's just an excuse for sloppiness. I guess I personally prefer the representation of the Imperium that shows it as brutal, but necessary.
>>43680471
>Isn't the greater evil denying and repressing it?
I am a great believer in the value of inhibitions.
>>43685272
None of those things are mutually exclusive
Sloppy writing would be portraying all Inquisitors or all commissars as the same as each other. In any organisation there are bound to be different levels of competency and different opinions on appropriate methods. Dan Abnett's work (Eisenhorn/Gaunt series) in particular goes into quite some detail about the friction between the 'exterminatus everything and let the emperor sort them out' Inquisitiors and the moderates, and between the 'shoot em for looking at you funny' commissars and the ones who prefer more inspirational methods.
As for space marines, it's very well explained that each chapter is highly individual and has its own ethos.
The Imperial armies can be a juggernaut compared to individual enemies and still be overwhelmed by the sheer number of them. Remember, the Imperium is fighting every other faction simultaneously, while others are only fighting the Imperium and one or two others.
>Finally, is chaos a hidden, invisible, insidious threat that most humans don't know about and haven't even heard of, or is it a massive military force that can rival the Imperium and engages with them in massive pitched battles on a regular basis?
There's no reason a pitched battle around the eye of terror would be reported anywhere else in the galaxy. This is a totalitarian dictatorship, remember - information isn't propagated. And the Imperium is BIG - all the novels concerning chaos attacks seem to take place in, at most, a few dozen star systems. But Chaos could overrun a thousand worlds and still leave 99% of the Imperium untouched.
Honestly, I think you just don't understand the sheer scale of the Imperium. Wild variations make perfect sense when you're dealing with trillions of humans, across a whole galaxy, across a couple of centuries. Frankly, consistency would be unrealistic in those circumstances.
>>43685272
>>43685558
>I guess I personally prefer the representation of the Imperium that shows it as brutal, but necessary.
Also, part of what makes the whole setting interesting is the ambiguity. Is the imperium the best response to the challenges humanity faces, or is it keeping humanity trapped in a Dark Age? You could debate it endlessly and never get to the bottom of it, and that's part of the fun.
>>43682655
Bullshit they were. They literally had no real reason for slaughtering and forcing worlds to bow to them. Just because they weren't complete fucks with it doesn't make them not evil.
>>43685587
In 3th ED, the Tau didn't force people to join their Empire. Nations and planets that refused to join the Greater Good, had to sign non-aggression treaties with the Tau Empire in order for the Tau to leave them alone.
>>43682179
As far as mutual protection is concerned they dont do it because the Tau empire cant offer the imperium any significant protection in return, People should remember that the Tau are actually tiiiiiny compared to any other 40k faction, I mean the only reason they constantly survive everything that gets thrown at them is they sell models.
>>43680960
>by the will of the Gods
>>43685618
> Tau empire cant offer the imperium any significant protection in return,
Actually, the Tau and Imperium joined together to fight off Hive Fleets and Necron uprising in the east. The Tau is a sly ally the Imperium can count on.
In fact, the Tau might play a role in stopping the onslaught of the Sautekh from shattering Ultramar and the whole of Ultima Segmentum.
>>43681005
>The Emperor didn't get his power from the gods, only a certain power/knowledge
"Vengeful Spirit" says he gained godhood through his bargain with the gods. Alivia Sureka confirms it.
He might have been powerful but he wasn't a god before Molect.
>>43681060
>>43681002
Says the dude who just got his planet destroyed by Chaos and cried thousands of years in space like a bitch.
Order cannot win because Order are a bunch of sinful thugs that created Chaos in the first place.
>>43685654
Okay, Let me rephrase myself, While yes such an alliance would be potentially effective, It would only have an effect where the Tau and Imperium both are, And since the Tau have such a small amount of space under their controll maintaining such an alliance is a worse idea than either 1: Wiping them out and taking the space for themselves, 2: Ignoring them and letting them get eaten eventually, Why? because this would let the imperium move their soldiers to other fronts where they are more needed, If they had such an alliance the imperium would have to maintain a prescence to support the Tau, And while the Tau would have to do the same the Tau wouldnt provide help anywhere outside of their space.
>>43685700
To add to this, Best case scenario for the imperium regarding the Tau is that they get attacked by something that requires significant amounts of their millitary might to keep in check, Leading to a stalemate between these two powers, Now the imperium can leave token forces defending their systems that neighbour tau space and move everything else off to be useful elsewhere.
>>43685059
Chaos is only the truth.
Chaos is the only truth.
>>43685700
The Tau are a major power in the Eastern Fringes a place filled with Necrons (the heart of the Necron threat) and nids. Destroying them or letting them die would deny the Imperium a unique ally whose strengths in adaption and technology might prove useful in countering the technological wonders of the Necrons and the ever adaptive Tyranids.
Since Ultima Segementum is the largest of the Segementums, I think the Imperium would like to have an area of order and stability there.
The death of a friendly Tau Empire would hurt the Imperium more than benefit them.
>>43685747
The Tau are a minor power that are holding up more imperial resources up than they could possibly do just because they sell models, Which means GW needs to keep them alive, While yes their death would possibly hurt the imperium, Since the imperium would likely push into tau space and colonize it, Thus extending the imperium and forcing them to contend with whatever the tau had to contend with, But that does not mean that any kind of alliance is at all beneficial for the imperium, My point is, The imperium is big, Very big, Stretching very far, Tau space is small, Very small, Doesnt stretch very far, Which means there are more imperials than Tau, Which means the Tau cant stretch their forces to help the imperium on their other fronts, Whereas the imperium can help the tau pretty much all over their space, If such an alliance happened. now as i said, Death of the Tau empire is not the imperiums best case regarding the Tau, Their best case is that the Tau has to focus on something else, So the imperium can shift most of the forces fighting them/holding them at bay to places where they are needed way way more.
>>43682961
Carnac, not where is your proof I'm him? Huh? You have nothing. Now go die for a lack of proof.
>>43683115
Lies. Just flat out lies.
>>43685059
>>43685695
>sins
Carnac, you moron, having emotions isn't a sin.
>>43685735
Wrong. They have a horrible codex.
God never told Moses that emotions were sinful.
11:40.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG7VvMGw6w0
>>43686184
Anon, you know who you are.
No more crackers for you today. Don't get too greedy.
>Carnac, you moron, having emotions isn't a sin.
Stealing is a sin. That's what the Old Ones did. Know your lore.
>>43686257
>Anon, you know who you are.
Nope. Not him. You have no proof.
>Old Ones
Can't punish everyone for what the Old Ones did.
>>43686269
Don't lie to me. Lying is a sin. I might not feed you crackers next time. You don't want that, do you?
>Can't punish everyone for what the Old Ones did.
Everything the Old One built was created from power stolen from the Chaos Gods. The races and their souls belong to Chaos.
Futhermore, it's the fault of the races for sinning and clogging the Realm of Chaos with bad mojo. Chaos is just the consequence to their actions. Cosmic justice.
If you don't support Chaos, then you support sin and injustice.
>>43686303
>Don't lie to me. Lying is a sin. I might not feed you crackers next time. You don't want that, do you?
Why would crackers on the internet do anything? It's a freaking picture of crackers. How can anyone eat a freaking picture of crackers on the freaking internet? Answer me, Carnac. You must be incredibly paranoid if you think everyone who says something you hate is the parrot anon.
>If you don't support Chaos, then you support sin and injustice.
>mfw
Sin made manifest has no right to punish others for sins. Only he who is without sin may cast the first stone.
>blah blah blah my morals blah blah blah bad guy good guy blah blah outer space blah blah
Nigga no one gives a FUCK. That's why people do bad things. It's fun to do bad things. Feels good.
Gonna do it anyway. Chaos doesn't need to be defended from any point of view.
>>43686330
Because seeing pictures of crackers fills you with determination.
>Sin made manifest has no right to punish others for sins.
It's sin made manifest and set against the sinners who made it. It's beautiful poetic justice. You don't see that because you have no justice in your heart.
>Only he who is without sin
That "he" does not exist in 40K or AoS. They are all sinners and must be destroyed.
>>43686371
>You don't see that because you have no justice in your heart.
Because I hate Chaos means I have no justice in my heart? Fine then. Who needs your brand of justice? Not me.
>That "he" does not exist in 40K or AoS. They are all sinners and must be destroyed.
But why do you go on about how God exists in 40k because of Pius? What about new born babies? What have they done to deserve to die?
>Because seeing pictures of crackers fills you with determination.
Really nigga?
>>43686399
God of the 40K universe could have made Chaos exist to punish sinners. Nothing exist without his approval right?
> What about new born babies?
Sins of the father/collective punishment.
Please remember the 40K saying "There is no innocence, only degrees of guilt".
>Really nigga?
Yeah, really.
Anyways, It's time for dinner. Later.
>>43682179
It's because the Tau are actually greedy as fuck.
An alliance wouldn't be enough for them, they would spend the entire time trying to convert everyone to the greater good.
>>43686446
Not the same God then.
>no innocence
The Inquisition believe that.
>dinner
I hope you get food poisoning.
>>43686257
>Stealing
Stealing implies the right of possession that chaos entities do NOT have, nor there can be any right in monopolizing a limitless resource.
Go fuck yourself carnac.
>>43686371
>punishment and torment over sinners equal justice
>ever
Get out.
No seriously, get out.
Reminder that the Imperium isn't evil, it's actually the Best That Can Be Done.
Anyone saying otherwise just doesn't get 40k or lived a privileged, easy life without any hardships.
>>43685695
>Order cannot win because Order are a bunch of sinful thugs that created Chaos in the first place.
>implying order created chaos when order can only logically spawn out of it in the first place.
>implying order is sinful when order is literally adherence to a set of rules and therefore sinning, deviating from rules, is incompatible with its being.
>implying order isn't inevitably destined to overcome chaos as order is the only one that can follow a constant of growth and development.
Learn to reason, faggot, order is the only logical winner in this clash of concepts.
You're mentally challenged to even think that the other outcome is a possibility of the long run.
The only reason chaos is depicted as superior is because of the suspension of disbelief and plot armour required for the sake of creating a specific setting.
Reading anything else from it is only stupid and pathetic.
>>43685059
>Chaos is truth
So is algebra, but I don't feel the need to worship it.
>>43685059
>chaos is truth.
And yet you managed to tell a half truth and a lie and call it a truth only:
Even chaos is ultimately bound to something and, with the nonexistence of said something, chaos will stop existing too.
The something I'm talking about is the material universe, without it, there's no chaos, without chaos there's no material universe.
The two are inseparable sides of the same coin, both are a reality and both do exist.
The only distinction between the two is that the supremacy of one will lead to a meaningless lifeless nonexistence, while the other one to a meaningless soulless existence.
The only true and meaningful path is trough the gates in-between wisdom and ignorance: The ascension towards eternity and peace, trough the conjunction of both the material and the immaterial self to gain total independence and complete self realization.
The path lit by the old ones and instilled in their creations long ago.
And then chaosfags come in spewing lies because they are on the other side of the gate, the ignorant one, and want complete domination over the material plane for some objectively wrong self appointed right of supremacy.
Fucking ignorants, I swear.
>>43687018
Is that Nurglite vomiting out a heart with a face on it?
>>43679520
If you want to let some Black Library writer's Mary Sue perfect society invalidate the entire point of the setting, that is your decision.
>>43678466
>Trying to Moralize in a Grim Derp setting.
In the derp of the dark between the stars there are only shades of black.
>>43678466
Chaos allows self-determination.
There's a particularly strong passage in "The flight of the Eisenstein" where that one infected youngster Death Guard is approached by Nurgle when they're stuck at Luna and he's kept in quarantine.
He's asked "Do you want life?".
Think about this for a second. There's this man, who's been indoctrinated since childhood, treated with chemicals to alter his brian, so that he supposedly values his role in the greater scheme above his own wellbeing. He's been basically paralysed with creeping agony and all he can do is suffer it, waiting for his superiors of rank to decide what to do with him. The only reason he's in this mess is because he's followed orders from his superiors of rank.
And now, all of a sudden, somebody gives him a choice. A choice that puts him free of responsibility to his superiors, a choice that is for him and him alone to decide.
His reply is "GIVE ME FUCKING LIFE!"
It's an outcry, a birthcry even, of a human being realising his individuality and claiming his share from the greater scheme.
Of course, he heavily mutates and goes on a killing spree. Keeping in mind that Chaos as "The energies of the warp" is a fucked up thing because humanity has made it so, we can assume that his raging killboner is not due to Chaos' actual nature, but just as much a response to circumstance by the warp as would be the waves in a pond.
Chaos is not "destructive", it simply is not stable because it must always leave room for adaption and opportunity. An established "order" within chaos is destroyed because it had to adapt, becoming another order in the process.
To quote that one guy who's intelligent, sinister with a wicked sense of humour:
"Chaos is fair"
>>43687207
>child hood
Not entirely true. 30k marines were either kids to random bums off the street who decided to do something with their lives.
>>43687620
> 30k marines were either kids to random bums off the street
Not true. While the training/creation/indoctrination of a Space Marine in 40k is much, much more rigid than in 30k, the actual implantation of the Astartes organs is just as deadly as in 40k, and only 1 in 01000, only the strongest, hardest, more genetically compatible fighters live through it.
Case in point: Russ' friends and followers from the time before the Emperor came to Fenris. All of them asked for the SM operation despite being adults, the risk of death was even higher for them than it is for the usual kids even with superior 30k technology, almost all of them died (but some lived).
>>43682279
>The realm of Chaos book was called Slaves to Darkness.
Have you ever actually read Slaves to Darkness? Its written from the perspective of an 'imperial'. (actually an empire scholar).
>>43685272
The dualities you highlighted aren't a result of bad writing; they're a result of human nature. There are asshole Space Marines and good guy Space Marines. There are inspiring Commisars and bloodthirsty ones. It is a collection of staunch defenders AND meek pretenders.
>>43687696
That's Liber Chaotica.
>>43686571
The Chaos Gods are the ultimate masters of the Realm of Chaos. The undisputed masters of the Aether.
The Old Ones reached into their realm to steal their power and usurp them. The first act of war was engaged by the Old Ones of the WHFB universe.
>>43686806
Order as in the races of Order. Elves, Humans, Dwarfs, and the thieving Old Ones. Their sinful existences gave birth to Chaos and from them Chaos is empowered. They cannot overcome Chaos because they cannot overcome themselves. Their hatreds, greed, desires, and all their sins reflect into the Warp and gets turned back at them in the form of the Chaos Gods and their daemons.
The races of Order do not learn from their mistakes. Do not stop from falling into sin. Thus they cannot overcome Chaos. As long as they keep on this road, Chaos can never be truly defeated. It will continue to be victorious until everything is destroyed.
>>43687793
>will continue to be victorious until everything is destroyed.
Including itself.
>>43687809
And then the universe gets rebooted into the Age of the EMPEROR
>>43687903
Let us hope it's not as bad when it happens.
>>43678466
I am sure pol can
>>43686738
Except most of what's in there is never fucking stated. Anywhere.
The point of 40k is that it could be better, but it isn't because everyone is too dogmatic and bitter and selfish to do anything. It works because it has to, but no more than that. It wouldn't be Grimdark if everyone being fucking horrible all the time was the best they could have.
Can anyone morally justify humanity not surrendering to the Necrons? Besides "Muh human freedoms."
They're the only hope that the galaxy has against all it's major problems. They already have a solution to Chaos, they're working on a solution to Nids, and if they all got together they could probably deal with the orks in short order too.
>>43689161
The material world can't survive without the Warp. That's like ripping out one of yours lungs because one of them went bad with a chainsaw.
>>43689265
So you claim, but they do pretty well for themselves being soulless.
>>43689161
Pretty sure they'll just kill humanity outright and not enslave them.
That or make humans their new bodies.
>>43679222
DUDE BECAUSE THEY DONT LIVE IN CUSHY FIRST WORLD HOUSING WITH SAFE SPACES AND CUDDLY HUMANITIES DEGREES AND ACTUALLY HAVE TO FIGHT FOR SURVIVAL ON A SPECIES-WIDE LEVEL WHICH MEANS MAKING SACRIFICES AND THE LOWERING OF HUMAN LIFE'S VALUE IN ORDER TO SIMPLY EXIST AS A BIOLOGICAL COLLECTIVE = EVIL LMAO
>>43689391
I"m sure all the high lords and governors just need their golden palaces and literal hundreds of thousands of slaves that feed them grapes all day.
I'm sure that's absolutely necessary for humanities survival. Yup.
>>43689161
Go away Carnac.
>>43689426
Go away plebian.
>>43689422
DUDE BERNIE SANDERS IMPERIUM M41 999 WE NEED EQUALITY NOW *squeals* LMAO
>>43689391
It's been demonstrated that better empires can exist. The Imperial isn't shit because it has to be shit, it's shit because it is 1. gripped by mass-scale paranoia against change that stalls all development and 2. constructed to keep the powerful in power at the expense of everyone else.
You fundamentally misunderstand the allegory at play if you think the Imperium is 'necessary' or 'right' in any way.
>>43679347
>the tragic thing is that the only way it can do that is be as brutal and oppressive as it currently is.
The other human civilizations trashed during the Great Crusade say "no"
Basically, Big E fucked over what could have been a noblebright setting, into a grimdark one
>>43689391
The Interex demonstrated that you can have a powerful, free human realm with high technology, awareness of Chaos, and good standards of living. It's part of the tragedy of the Crusade that Horus felt he had to wipe them out, and was demonstrably the wrong thing to do considering that the Chaos Gods wanted him to do it.
The Imperium a shit. None of it is necessary evil. It's just bureaucratic evil dressed up as necessary evil.
>>43689538
>The Interex demonstrated that you can have a powerful, free human realm with high technology, awareness of Chaos, and good standards of living.
You forgot to add that it was also completely fucking powerless to chaos due to lack of numbers.
>>43689572
If they were powerless Chaos would have destroyed them.
>>43689488
Nobledark maybe. The setting is pretty grim even if humantiy plays nice.
>>43689572
It was spreading extremely well.
The Imperium started small too. Had they be been more like the Interex in demeanor people wouldn't feel the need to fall to Chaos. The Imperium not only fuels Chaos with its oppressive bullshit, xenophobic wars and religious hate, they actually provide Chaos will the vast majority of its servants - including its most powerful ones - because so many people will do ANYTHING to be free of the absolute nightmare that is Imperial rule.
>>43681997
>>quoting a retconned event
Half this thread is retconned though.
>>43689572
That doesn't really make their methodology any worse. It just means it's a shame the bigger empire - the Imperium - didn't behave more like them.
>>43689626
>it's a shame the bigger empire - the Imperium - didn't behave more like them.
You can't just Bernie Sanders something so large out of a sudden when you practically have no leader.
Plus, comfort does breed weakness, so I wouldn't advise for a utopic Imperium when they're attacked on all fronts
>>43689656
Utopia does not mean comfort.
I'd prefer a Stoic Imperium.
>>43689699
>Utopia does not mean comfort.
???
>>43689699
>Utopia does not mean comfort.
Yes it does, you filthy slaneeshi plant.
>>43680907
>It is not uncommon for his worshippers to spend the holidays of other deities in any orgy of worship for the Lord of Pleasure.
Slaaneshi cultists. Fidelity is such an alien concept that they can't even stick to one Gods worship... whorship.... whores.
>>43689656
Ridiculous, almost mandated suffering breeds disloyalty and treachery. Which is exactly why the Imperium hemorrhages followers to Chaos.
And I'm not saying the Imperium could instantly just change into something like the Interex. I'm saying the Interex model was better and the Imperium's foundations would have looked like that if the Emperor was legitimately interested in the good of mankind, and not ultimately appeasing his massive ego.
>>43689474
That better empires CAN exist doesn't mean that there's a path to get there from where the imperium is. Any attempt at reform would almost definitely provoke civil war.
>>43689731
I more mean, Utopia does not mean excess/hedonism.
Utopia can just mean minimal abject suffering and maximal forward progress.
>>43689796
Which is why it's grimdark.
It's shit and just because everyone is too shit to make it not shit doesn't mean it's somehow not absolute shit. It just means it's shit but no one can do anything about it because they're shit.
