Wouldn't it be super easy for Nurgle to wipe out the Tyranid? They intake all biological matter so it would be simple to sabotage a whole fleet. And Nurgle always has another disease waiting to be used so it's unlikely they would be able to adapt it away. If they were able to do so that would be a huge threat and I imagine that Nurgle would send out more of his strength to counter them.
Thoughts?
Wouldn't it be super easy for Nurgle to wipe out the Imperium? They intake all biological matter so it would be simple to sabotage a whole agriworld. And Nurgle always has another disease waiting to be used so it's unlikely they would be able to cure it away. If they were able to do so that would be a huge threat and I imagine that Nurgle would send out more of his strength to counter them.
Thoughts?
>>43621391
Nids are so good at biology that Nurgle's shit is only a minor issue for them.
Also, Shadow in the Warp fucks over daemons just as it fucks over psykers too. Daemons can't draw sustenance from the Nids, and the shadow makes it hard for Daemons to manifest.
>>43621391
The Hive Mind blots out Chaos in areas where many Tyranids are concentrated, so Nurgle's diseases would lose their Warp-based effects and be reduced to simple biology.
Additionally, the Tyranids are the logical extreme of the practice of evolution, which is Change. Thus, Nurgle's sphere is opposed to them and his power is weakened by needing to work uphill, in a sense.
Additionally, the Hive Mind understands at some level the detrimental effects of Chaos, and as a result Tyranid fleets tend to avoid Warp Storms where possible. While Chaos-taited bioforms do occur on occasion, Hive Fleets break their usual course of infighting when they appear and gang up on the tainted portion without consuming them.
Fall of Shadowbrink showed us how each type of Demon reacts to Tyranids.
Khorne demons hate them because they don't fight honorably, nor do they spill "blood", as the demons remark that it is only "worthless alien ichor."
Nurgle demons find that every disease they cooked up was rendered ineffective against the next wave of Tyranids.
Slaneesh demons could not tempt, seduce or cause even a single Tyranid to turn traitorous, of course.
Likewise, Tzeentch demons found the Hive Mind to be an equally cunning opponent, and could not demoralize or trick Tyranids in any way.
Of course, it wasn't all 1 way. Tyranids found themselves completely unable to digest Demon flesh, and global warp storms meant that reinforcements sent through Mycetic Pods were diminished, because the Tyranids would find themselves negatively affected by the Warp on the way through the atmosphere.
In the end, Tyranids proved victorious.
>>43622099
>Khorne demons hate them because they don't fight honorably, nor do they spill "blood", as the demons remark that it is only "worthless alien ichor."
Rectonned in the daemonkin codex where the ichor of the Tyranids served Khorne purposes as well as blood. In fact, there daemonkin warbands that specialize in hunting Tyranid hive fleets to make offering of them to Khorne.
>hate them because they don't fight honorably
You made that up and should be beaten to death for that.
>Daemons vs Tyranids
If anything, Shadowbrink showed that if probably fueled, daemons can easily wreck the Tyranids. The Daemons only began to be pushed back when they started running out of fuel.
In a scenario where daemons are properly fueled, the Tyranids cannot win. For example there was an event where a warp rift tore itself right in the middle of a Leviathan tendril. The tendril hiveships were swarmed by daemons and the tendril was slowly torn apart.
>>43621467
>hive fleets
>infighting
what
>>43622099
The story itself pointed out that Tyranids and Deamons treat each other as competing predators.
>>43622169
In a proper Tyranid Invasion, the daemons will run out of fuel fast as fuck because nids eat up mortals who can fuel daemons, while the mere presence of tyranids cause problems for daemons due to the shadow in the warp.
The only times where the daemons have the upper hand are in fights that occur in places where the warp spills over to the material realm in massive degrees.
>>43622220
The Hive Mind forces evolution by having new strains or entire splinter fleets fight, the superior one then consumes the biomass of the loser to allow the winner to grow in numbers.
Or at least they used to do that back when I played.
>>43622260
I've been a 40K fan for decades and never seen this mentioned. Got a source? Would be interesting if true. I admit I'm not big into the Nids, wish they didn't exist really.
>>43622297
Sounds like something GW would say to justify two Nid players going at it.
>>43621391
You can't just poison them because in an hour nids could probably develop immunity to the virus.
>>43621391
Nurgle struggles immensely with nids, every bio threat he unleashes on them, effects and kills a couple ships, then tyranids adapt to it and start using it as a weapon for themselves
>>43622297
In one of the Cian books, they find out the synapse network of different hive fleets block each other out, and each of the Tyranids fleets immediately attack each other instead of those around them when given the chance. I think it's called "Greater Good" if I remember. Or possibly "Last Ditch"
The imperium negotiates a truce with the Tau for a short time to fight the Tyranids back, and on a Hive world where Cain is sent to genestealers attack a random Mechanicus lab, for no reason. Wondering why they later investigate and find the frozen remains of a Tyranid ship beneath the facility, where the Mechanicus were studying it.
>>43622297
Why do you wish they didn't exist
Nurgle's plagues would each wreck havoc the first time they get used. But the the Nids would react to the plagues the same way the Borg react to energy weapons.
So, a Nurgilite v Nid war would see great gains by Chaos in the opening rounds, until the increasingly resistant Nids suffer less and less casualties for each plague and diminishing returns for every push by Chaos. If unable to capitalize on the early victories, and unable to dislodge the Nids quickly enough, Nurgle forces would slowly be stalled, then stopped, then overrun.
>>43622297
Tyranid codex 4th edition "CONVERGENT EVOLUTION
Recent reports of the splinter fleets of the known hive fleets turning on each other in a full-scale cannibalistic war have been greeted with elation only by the short sighted. When one considers the end result of any usual conflict involving Tyranids it becomes apparent that when one hive fleet fights another no resources are expended whatsoever. Infighting of this kind, usually taking place upon the surface of a planet, is the perfect way to determine which of the two hive fleets has the stronger component parts. Eventually, the weaker of the two forces is driven back and finally slaughtered. Then, as with all victims of the Tyranids, their bodies are rendered down and absorbed by the bio-ships of the victor. In this manner, none of the biological matter seemingly destroyed in this internecine conflict is wasted at all. Furthermore, any strengths that the losing hive fleet may have assimilated or evolved over the course of its conquest thus far are absorbed at a cellular level and mingled with those of the victorious hive fleet in a new hybrid generation of warriors more effective than the sum of its parts."
What about a disease that attacked a Tyranid's nervous system? Would it affect synapse? If so would that leave the hive mind mostly unable to function?
Like an aggressive Alzheimer's or something.
>>43622410
It's "The Greater Good".
and fuck that novel.
According to the fluff, Tyranids have no interest in the Necrons and will only attack them to defend themselves or when they are provoked. Tyranids would just leave the Necrons alone unless bothered by them.
If Tyranids can eat metal, then why aren't they interested in Necrons? Why don't they harvest their necrodermis?
>>43622614
Probably too much effort for too little gain, especially with other, much more temping targets like Agri or Hive worlds.
They'll probably get around to eating the Necrons eventually, but there's just other easier fruits laying around.
>>43622539
>What about a disease that attacked a Tyranid's nervous system? Would it affect synapse?
I dunno. Synapse is warp-based. Is warp activity even explicitly neurological/biological in 40K? The Astronomicon seems to be doing fine despite being contained in a mummified corpse, and then you have all this "soul" business being thrown around
>>43622614
Tyranids can eat metal, the frequently take minerals, soil, water, rocks and metals. The pyrovore is even described as being used to melt down metals and rocks for other nids to eat
Tomb worlds are often barren, with a high tech metal enemy that can destroy biomass, so lots of effort for little gain
>>43622614
If you go by the fluff in the old short story Hive Fleet Horror, then the Tyranids are primarily interested in harvesting new types of DNA to further their own evolution. The collection of Biomass and other resources is just a means to that end. A barren tomb world isn't going to have any new genetic material for them to absorb, so even if a Hive Fleet could gather non-organic resources from it, they'd be unlikely to attack. Especially since many Necron weapons break down matter to a point where it can't be reabsorbed, so any resources consumed on the planet itself would be matched by resources lost from dead warrior organisms. It would be a lot of effort for very little, if any, gain.
>>43621391
As people have mentioned, Tyranids have been shown as entirely capable of evolving to counteract Nurgle's plagues. During the Eye of Terror campaign, there was a three-way brawl between the Death Guard, Imperial Guard, and Tyranids - the Imperials suffered from the Death Guard's plagues, but the Tyranids were immune to them. Furthermore, the Hive Mind isn't stupid or mindless. If one Hive Fleet was poisoned in such a way, others will learn to avoid Nurglesque forces wherever possible, or reject potentially tainted matter.
>>43622614
Necrodermis=/=raw metal
>>43621391
The 'nids are the closest thing to a combined avatar of Nurgle and Tzeentch that there is in the 40K universe. They literally eat diseases to get stronger.
>>43622535
Before any jackass starts going on about "muh 2nd law of thermodynamics" let it be noted, that Nids do not consume or use biomass for energy or as fuel. They get their energy needs from stars, like plants do. What they do use biomass for, is basically reproduction. They eat in order to make moar nids, not because they need to eat food to fuel themselves, at least on hive fleet level of the Tyranid Super Organism.
>>43622169
>Rectonned
The word you're looking for is "contradicted"
That coupled with chaos hardly ever counts as retcon, dipshit
>>43621391
Simply because it's too much effort for a minimal rewards.
Tyranids aren't as fun to infect cause they don't have souls and have no emotions so they can't be truly brought to despair. Also, there's the problem of the Shadow in the Warp.
>>43622614
IIRC, they cannot properly digest necrodermis, and Gauss weapons destroy their targets at the atomic level, so they cannot reabsorb their losses. It's just a giant lose for them.
>>43624849
>they cannot properly digest necrodermis
Need a source for that, as nids can digest metal
>>43625089
Necrodermis is not metal.
>>43625173
Literally described as living metal
>>43622169
In a scenario where demons are properly fueled they would beat pretty much anyone.
Getting that fuel is their primary strength but also their weakness.
>>43624653
It makes Chaos come off better, therefore it supersedes anything else.But really, he and the people arguing with him have already completely dragged down at least one other thread right now. so we shouldn't bring that here as well.
Toasting the Eye of Terror fluff mentioned above:
>The hive world of Subiaco Diablo was the first planet in the Belis Corona sector to come under the heel of the forces of Disorder, as the Plague Marines of the Death Guard Traitor Legion unleashed their foulest contagions upon its populace. Soon, the shattered streets were home to the unquiet dead, the Plague Zombies of Nurgle, reanimated victims of the Plague God’s choicest gifts. Throughout the opening phase of the invasion, only the convent of the Order of the Ermine Mantle held out, though at terrible cost, against the shuffling hordes of undead.
>At the height of the invasion, something truly unexpected occurred. Defenders on the outlying systems reported contact with Tyranid organisms – at first individual vanguard-organisms such as Lictors, but soon entire broods of Genestealers and Hormagaunts. A splinter fleet of Hive Fleet Leviathan, a Tyranid fleet known to be attacking up through the galactic plane, was taking advantage of the mass destruction initiated by the invasion to gain a foothold in strategically vital Imperial space.
>Faced with both the pustulant forces of the Death Guard, and the voracious hordes of Tyranids who were, unlike the human defenders, immune to the Plague God’s blessings, the forces of the Imperium were hard pressed to defend the vital worlds of the sector. It was first the intervention of Eldar of the Ulthwé Craftworld and then the orbital bombardment of Laurentix that allowed the forces of the Imperium to fight back, despite the disastrous ambush of forward elements of Battlefleet Solar at the Bairsten Prime jump point.
>>43621391
>oh no overmind, we have been affected by a disease that's killing 10% of our forces
>1 hour later
>sweet new biological weapon and the rest of the fleet gets their rations increased by 10%
>>43625206
And it's not metal. Necrodermis is actually made of billions/trillions of nanoscarabs that fuck up anything stupid enough to try to eat or modify it and can strip your flesh.
>>43625568
sexy
>>43625568
Melt that shit, sorted
Can I get a citation on that though? Havent found anything other than "living metal"
>>43622535
That's not what convergent evolution means.
>>43625247
tell me more
>>43625993
The Necron 7th ED codex. In the section talking about Necron self repair.
There is story about Kroot eating Necrons and then getting horribly killed off by a plague of nanoscaraps.
>>43625247
Didn't that butt-puppet Cato Sicarius get his in that campaign too?
>>43626175
This just in, 40k writers don't know what the fuck they're doing.
More at 2300.
>>43621391
>>43621461
Exactly. They would just have better toxins after that.
>>43621439
Also, it is not in the interest of any of the Gods to "wipe out" their REAL source of power. The Gods wouldn't even exist without mortal souls to worship them. The Chaos Gods would utterly fail in 3 minutes if they were as shallow and 1 dimensional as average gamer seems to think they are.
>>43627035
No, he died in Medusa.
>>43627553
>Also, it is not in the interest of any of the Gods to "wipe out" their REAL source of power.
Actually, it's outright stated in the main rulebook that Chaos seeks to wipe out all life, space, and time in the galaxy. Only Chaos would remain eternal.
From this we realize that Chaos doesn't really require mortals to exist.
>>43626346
That's all there is to it. If you look at the pdf there's also one more short paragraph about SoB heroics, but the post was too big and I deemed it non-essentialjust like GW ahahahahahahahasorry.
>>43627035
>>43627559
Medusa V was the campaign Sicarius starred in, but he didn't die there. However...
The Fall of Medusa V campaign booklet:
>Sicarius's first act is to deploy the disparate elements of the crusade throughout the Medusa system to intercept and destroy the forces of Chaos and thwart Ygethmor's plans wherever they can. Sicarius knows that only the death of this evil sorcerer of Chaos will end the threat to Medusa V and he swears a mighty oath to hunt him down and slay him in personal combat.
http://web.archive.org/web/20070312003503/http://medusav.uk.games-workshop.com/campaign/factions/eldar/eldar-c.htm
>The Autarch of Alaitoc, Elarique Swiftblade, commanded her forces with a stark efficiency that left no room for compassion or finesse. Such considerations died along with her brothers when Ygethmor first crossed Swiftblade’s path. Thankfully for her Craftworld, Swiftblade also managed to put aside her burning desire to slay the Chaos Sorceror with her own hand until her primary objective was completed. With her duty done, Elarique painted the blood-rune of revenge upon her face and grimly set out to slay her nemesis. Armed with only her ancestral power sword, she cut her way through hundreds of Ygethmor’s lackeys in the catacombs beneath the Great Cathedral of Euryales. Elarique eventually found her quarry, and though she was almost instantly riddled with shots afterward, managed to cleave Ygethmor’s head from his shoulders. It is a great loss to the Eldar that her spirit stone should lay in the clutches of Ygethmor’s lieutenants, and her soul be taken by the Warp, but the price of vengeance is oft high.
>>43628109
Also this:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070711163900/http://medusav.uk.games-workshop.com/campaign/factions/chaos/chaos5.htm
>Lucius the Eternal
>Imperial vox networks are scrambled by a signal broadcast by the Emperor’s Children, which breaks down their communications network. Lucius the Eternal, finest swordsman of the Emperor’s Children and warrior of a thousand souls, issues a challenge to the warriors of the Imperium, defying any to slay him in personal combat. It is hoped that this challenge will draw Captain Sicarius to the Hydra’s Tooth where he can be slain upon the Altar of Damnation.
http://web.archive.org/web/20070506130441/http://medusav.uk.games-workshop.com/campaign/factions/spacemarines/spacemarines5.htm
>Lucius the Eternal
>Imperial vox networks are scrambled by an unknown signal and communications break down for over an hour. Embedded within the signal is a pict capture of a warrior of Chaos identifying himself as Lucius the Eternal. Calculus-logi of Inquisitor Baptiste verify the identity of this traitor as he issues a challenge to the warriors of the Imperium, defying any to slay him in personal combat. Chaplain Aggripus of the Ultramarines demands the honour of destroying this vile heretic, and Captain Sicarius grants him leave to travel to the Hydra’s Tooth to make an example of this traitor.
>>43628109
>, but he didn't die there. However...
Nah, man, check the Chaos report. He Lucius took him out.
>>43628141
http://web.archive.org/web/20070711163419/http://medusav.uk.games-workshop.com/campaign/factions/chaos/chaos6.htm
>The Glory of Lucius
>Captain Sicarius did not rise to the challenge of Lucius and it was left to the poor skill of a Chaplain to face the might of this mighty bladesman. Atop the Hydra’s Tooth, Lucius fought the warrior of the Ultramarines and cut him limb from limb without effort. The Eternal One’s blades cut the Chaplain’s face until it was a mirror of the scarred glory of Lucius. Only then, when the Chaplain was on his knees and utterly defeated did Lucius deliver the deathblow. To shame Captain Sicarius for his cowardice, Lucius then dismembered the body of his fallen opponent and mounted the remains upon a war standard to plant in the breach of Hive Euryales.
http://web.archive.org/web/20070711163741/http://medusav.uk.games-workshop.com/campaign/factions/spacemarines/spacemarines6.htm
>The warriors of the Ultramarines swear mighty oaths of vengeance against Lucius the Eternal, for the dismembered corpse of Chaplain Aggripa has been planted on a Chaos standard at the crest of the Mithras Breach. Captain Sicarius himself fought through legions of Chaos cultists to recover the body of his dearest friend, finding a message from the Champion of Chaos boasting that he would best any warrior sent to face him – a personal challenge to the honour of the Ultramarines.
>>43628160
http://web.archive.org/web/20070711163923/http://medusav.uk.games-workshop.com/campaign/factions/chaos/chaos7.htm
>Cracking the Tooth
>Yet more Imperial forces attack the Hydra’s Tooth in response to the overt challenge of Lucius, further displaying their foolishness. What matters this place at this stage of the war? Only foolish notions of honour drive these warriors and such a concept has no place in the grand scheme of the universe. What does it care for honour or loyalty? Only death and the powers of the Warp are eternal, and such is the gift we bring to Medusa V. Blinded inquisitors and Astartes fight to recover the bodies of their fallen, unaware that they are now blessed with the touch of Chaos. They come with numbers to crush us, unaware that we care nothing for this place and will abandon it to reinforce the attack on Hive Euryales!
http://web.archive.org/web/20070711164102/http://medusav.uk.games-workshop.com/campaign/factions/spacemarines/spacemarines7.htm
>Cracking the Tooth
>In response to the overt challenge of Lucius the Eternal, Inquisitor Baptiste accompanies a detachment of Astartes warriors, led by Captain van Garda of the Imperial Fists and Egil Iron Wolf of the Space Wolves to the Hydra’s Tooth. Hundreds of Astartes warriors clash in the toxic wastelands, but before any resolution can be reached, the cowardly warriors of the enemy withdraw. The Hydra’s Tooth is secured and the bodies of fallen comrades are recovered, ready for return to their homeworlds.
>>43628109
>>43628141
>>43628160
>>43628173
> Fall of Medusa V
Darn. It was so long ago...
>>43628173
WE ARE GOING TO SKULL FUCK YOUR FAMILIES!
They would still have to operate at impossible efficiencies to pull that off, because it takes a LOT of chemical energy to fuel shit as big as a hive ship. Plants are leafy because leaves let you get a crapload of surface area for catching light relative to the amount of mass used to build them, and there's nothing in any Tyranid fluff - or models - to suggest that they're anywhere near so efficiently designed. Don't get me started on the increased energy needs of highly mobile organisms versus sedentary.
TL;DR the "like plants do" handwave is bad, you should feel bad for typing it out, and if it's GW's handwave they should feel bad for writing it.I'm waiting for the joke to be that they actually get their energy by literally eating the Warp, myself. It would explain SitW pretty well.
>>43628624
Whoops, meant to quote >>43624418.
>>43628382
I miss the summer campaign hype. Made for really interesting stories.
>>43628753
It was back then when GW still wasn't THIS greedy.
Now these days are gone...
>>43628624
Why is you people have such a hateboner for the Nids and their apparent defiance of the laws of thermodynamics? I mean, we're talking about a universe with Space Marines, Necrons, Chaos, and Orks, yet it's only ever the Nids that get singled out as unrealistic and bad. Why? Did a ripper swarm rape your mother or something?
>>43628794
Not even that. I don't have a problem with them releasing big fluff books about campaigns.
I just wish that instead of making their own retarded plots, let the fans influence things. Publish detailed writeups of our own retarded plots. Something to be invested in.
Like, pump out a campaign booklet that's an introduction to damocles 2: imperial boogaloo. Whip up a quick and dirty 6-week campaign for the players (of all races) to report games on. Then once the dust settles make it all pretty and print it.
It's what they did for Eye of Terror. It's what they did for Medusa V. And those were fucking awesome. If I could shelve a physical copy of all those old war reports I'd be happy as a god damn clam.
>>43629202
Agreed here.
The fans should have control via skirmishes on how the plot would go.
If the Eye campaign wasn't retconned from Chaos Victory to Chaos getting a foothold, then that would make for an interesting turn of events.
But nope. We'll probably never get this again.
>>43629241
It's stupid. The little campaign starter sets they've been releasing would be the perfect intro to that kind of stuff, but they're squandering it.
>>43629345
Just like a lot of things.
Now lately they are reviving the specialist games via FW.
Some rejoiced. I on the other hand call it being desperate.
>>43622099
>>43621467
>hurr let's make nids 100% immune to chaos
great writing
What would happen if Nurgle was able to put his greasy smelly fingers on a tyranid hive ship and make a new Plague inspired to the Tyranid constant ability to adapt, evolve and overcome?
>>43630168
better writing than chaos being uuber.
>>43628624
You talk as if a hyper evolved alien hive organism would be unable to manage to develop a way better method of photosynthesis than that of earth plants.
They could for example, simply absorb light from far more frequencies than earth plants do, and generally simply have super stream lined and efficient biochemistry, which life here on earth certainly doesn't possess.
>>43630622
look man its a space magic setting so no one cares, but please for the love of god dont go GEE they might be able to out evolve thermodynamics, its just fucking stupid. Lets just let the hyperbole be what it is but dont try and explain or justify it for fucks sake..
>>43631960
>>43630622
I'm a bit peeved at you both for not coming up with easy and convenient space bug solar harvesters.
Just make a giant goddamn space plant, ship it Co2 via a tube or some shit, and have it rain delicious space potatoes or whatever on nearby creatures.
Those creatures process the potatoes, shit out carbon slurry, and have it go be re-energized in the solar plant into new potatoes.
Like, you know, every fucking ecosystem.
>>43621391
Tyranid > Zerg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d6Kay_8eAA
>>43633570
The Nids could be like locusts. They have a swarm phase and a normal phase. In the normal phase they grow giant self sustaining space gardens. When they run out of space or when the gardens start getting rekt they launch themselves at the nearest galaxy, rip and tear until there's nothing that can oppose them, then go back to gardening.
>>43634028
There is not much of a hive between stars. A lot of the fleet is rendered into organic goop, the ones that are not are kept in statis until awakened by the hive mind by an intruder. There are very little actual active units that require feeding between planet falls.
>>43630442
Nurgles revolves around decay.
>>43628624
>it takes a LOT of chemical energy
Why would the Tyranids be confined to using chemical energy? They have plasma based bio-weapons, that implies they'd have a capacity for biologically induced fusion power.
>>43622297
it's been a thing in all the codex, and for a long time
>>43630442
That's kinda contrary to Nurgle's ideals. I guess it would basically create Tyranid's cold. Not lethal, but impossible to ger id of, and endemic in all Nids
Remember, grandfather nurgle loves you
