Would Greek heroes like pic related still be considered heroes by today's standards?
What are today's standards, OP?
>>43611769
Today's laws and moralities.
>>43611754
No, tumblrinas would see to that.
Define today's standards.
A Yalie gender-studies SJW from NYC is going to have different standards from a UT engineer from Dallas. That's called diversity.
If they were throwing towelheads back in the ocean, sure.
>>43611800
To be fair, I don't think many would see Perseus turning a king/ambassador/whatever-the-fuck and all of his buds into stone as very "hero-like".
>>43611754
Classical heroes were the original murderhobos
>>43611754
Not a chance.
>>43611754
Fuck Jason, he was the worst piece of shit
>>43611839
Why? Perseus is pretty bad to.
>>43611789
From which culture?
>>43612014
Didn't you read the OP? Todays.But for arguments sake, lets start off with Amerifat culture. Mainly because that would be the easiest, their Amerifats.
>>43612014
The one that's predominant in Greece.
>>43611754
No.
They aren't heroes by then's standard, either, if we're using today's definition of the word.
Heroes back then did legendary things, they weren't necessarily people to be emulated or looked up to as per the modern definition.
>>43612025
My knowledge of the story comes from vidya and movies. Wasn't Medusa and the Harpy and the others more of natural hazards? Most Amerifats would be okay with hunting them down. As idolized as mountain lions and wolves are, they are still hunted down for being dangerous.
>>43611754
Maybe. If they helped and saved people, then yeah. If they're still fighting and killing literal monsters, there would probably be a section of the stupid part of the internet that would try to defend the monsters' rights.
>>43612069
Well yes that's true, however this "creatures" can think and learn like humans can to a extent. Hell, from what I know Medusa wasn't even doing all that much anyway.
Besides, Perceus literally kills the king and all his lads by turning them into stone, if that doesn't put him on trial I don't know what will.
No, because there are only two ways of ending up a Hero in todays world:
a) Do some mindblowingly stupid shit in combat, die from it but save your squad/civvies/3+ star brasshole/cute puppy
b) Be made a Hero by (insert nation press here) to draw attention away from other shit
In short there are two kinds of heroes: Dead heroes and fake heroes.
>>43612069
Medusa was living in old temple miles from any other settlements and only killed those who would invade her place, defending her household, so to speak.
>>43612104
Person turned into stone can be turned back, it's technically not a murder.
>>43612145
Do you think that makes turning the fucking Presifat into stone any less worse?
You can also argue that he's not technically alive at that point, so it's still murder because he "killed" him, just not for good. Even if not it would probably be "crippling" or some shit.
>>43611754
Pretty certain the answer to that would be a resounding "no". They'd all be racist, sexists, nationalists etc. by today's standards. Maybe if Hercule tattood "refugees welcome" on his chest, he'd stand a chance.
>>43612167
What about Odysseus? He did hardly anything wrong by today's standards, because he was defending his men.
>>43612166
That, like most things in American justice, would boil down to who can hire better lawyers.
Or he might get pardon in exchange for handing the head to military.
>>43612229
He was a patriarchal shitlord because he expected his wife to wait for him for 20 years and got pissed at other men for interfering with his "property".
QED.
>>43612238
>Who can hire better lawyers.
Fairly certain you don't need lawyers when the President and his entire cabinet got stoned. What lawyer can possibly defend that?
>>43612248
The problem with that is that she actually did wait, and the men who were "proposing" to her were ransacking her home like mad. I wouldn't be surprised if she called a fucking S.W.A.T. team during that shit.
![o-better-call-saul-facebookjpg-444599_1280w[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/iqPu505.jpg "o-better-call-saul-facebookjpg-444599_1280w[1].jpg")
>>43612265
>What lawyer can possibly defend that?
A criminal laywer
>>43612295
>The problem with that is that she actually did wait
Internalized misogyny, obviously.
>>43612307
Then both sides are misogyny, because the men where fucking up her house and Odysseus would be considered very dead at that point. Gone from a long over war for 20 fucking years.
>>43612342
There was little worse to the Greeks than violating the laws of hospitality.
>>43612295
>>43612307
She also clearly loved him. When he showed up she make sure it was him by asking about their love making bed and then later they had such awesome, cathartic sex that the gods made the night longer just so they could enjoy it longer.
Ulysses was a real human being and a real hero.
>>43611754
Perseus? Certainly.
Hercules? Probably not.
Achilles? Maybe.
Jason? You bet your ass he would be.
>>43612342
>Then both sides are misogyny
Yeah, which means both sides are discredited and Odysseus would not be considered a hero.
>>43612454
>Ulysses
That's cultural appropriation, you privileged Roman jerk! My culture is more than just a costume!
>>43612229
Odysseus facilitated the fall of Troy, which involved the deaths of innocent people, doesn't care about his men to the point he doesn't notice one of them dies until he sees him in the Underworld, is vain (he tries to fight a sea monster he's been told not to kill, causing twelve men to die needlessly), selfish (he cheats on his wife endlessly, for nine total years of his ten year journey home) and a massive bitch (he cries all the fucking time). He's a solid Greek hero, but a terrible modern one, even without gender politics.
>>43612466
Hercules is a god fearing superman working off the guilt of his dead family by being a bad ass and simultaneously working for/showing up the Government that is blatantly trying to screw him while he inspires everyone else to greater deeds.
It's Lethal Weapon x Gladiator x Seven Pounds x Rocky
Hercules without the cousin/centaur hoopla at the end is an American Hero to a T
>>43612529
>He's a solid Greek hero, but a terrible modern one
Wait, you're telling me the ancient Greeks didn't care about shit like not caring about your men and selfish hypocrisy? I understand the vanity and "little bitch" parts can be culturally determined, but I'll have a hard time thinking of a culture that values hypocrisy and borderline psychopathy.
>>43612265
Presidents have been getting stoned for years, and only the economy suffers.
>>43612489
America isn't Tumblr. Remember a bunch of SJW fags whining about how mysoginistic Jurassic World is? Then it made like a trillion dollars and is lined up for four sequels. And unlike The Avengers, which ate shit, dinosaurs don't get old. Spineless college students whose teachers have lied to them and told them that all men are rapists and the world is just one big torture machine for minorities and women don't define media culture, they just plague it. For every one of them there are four vaguely conservative white middle-staters who don't even know what a Tumblr is, three ultra-Catholic Latinos who beat their wives, a black guy who just likes dinosaurs, and an Asian who secretly wants to reinstate a Confucian meritocracy.
Those are who films, vidya, and thus pop-culture heroes are made for. This towering bastion of the patriarchy is an American pop-hero, not some blubbering fedora from reddit, and this is never going to change, not so long as the people who actually consume media in this country remain predominantly working class.
>>43612529
>(he cheats on his wife endlessly
To be fair here the biggest case off the top of my head was the nymph and saying no to the person who owns the Island you are currently living on would be very stupid because they could easily tell you they guess you are swimming home now.
>>43612145
...So why should he be lauded for killing Medusa?
>>43613145
Medusa that did nothing else thay staying in her fucking home minding her own business.
>>43611754
Diomedes maybe?
>>43612877
I thought dinosaurs are extremely old? But- hey just me.
>>43612229
Didn't he brutally slaughter an entire room full of men for hitting on his wife?
>>43611754
No, if largely because what the Greek heroes and gods would call "courtship" would be what anybody today would call "rape".
This isn't SJWing. Achilles, THE hero of the Illiad, pouted in his tent with his boyrfriend because his king insulted him by taking away the girl he was gonna rape.
There's also the fact Greek heroes were immensely flawed even for their time. Theseus left his girlfriend behind and accidentally killed his father because he was constantly forgetful. Perseus--arguably the least dickish--still killed an entire room full of people for no crime other than just happening to be in the same room as the guy who was harassing his mom.
Heracles caused a lot of problems too, but people forget he was legit retarded and threatened the sun once.
And let's not get started on Odysseus, who was basically the first literary example of someone playing Renegade Shepard.
>>43611818
I dunno.
If I could go up to the House of Commons during Prime Minster's Question Time and wave a head around until everyone turned to stone, I would be very tempted and doubt too many people would be all that torn up about it.
>>43612877
>teachers have lied to them and told them that all men are rapists and the world is just one big torture machine for minorities and women
do they teach at the same university with the atheist professor who drops chalk to prove that God isn't real?
>>43613166
Well, she was also insanely dangerous and the Shapeless Isle was fucking littered wit statues at that point.
Then again, she only became a monster out of anger and hate at the gods after Posidon raped her in Athena's temple and Athena banished her and her immortal sisters for it, who they then sent 'heroes' after to finish the job.....
Yeah, fuck the Greek Gods.
>>43614082
I'd be sad. We'd have a bunch of ugly statues despoiling a rather beautiful room.
>>43612116
He knows too much.
>>43614150
Nah he doesn't work there anymore, got punched by one too many Navy SEALs and decided to call it quits.
>>43611818
Honestly, tossing a gorgon head into congress might not be a terrible idea.
Speaking of ol' snake-hair, would she still have an effect if her image was projected over TV?
>>43614422
Probably not considering you can look at her safely in a reflection.
>>43611754
No, because they're not real heroes. What did they do, kill a few monsters? Any testosterone-fueled retard with a club can do that. The "heroes" of the ancient Greeks simply can't compare to true modern heroes who show true bravery. Those like Caitlyn Jenner, who fight the real battles for what they feel inside, and not what society tells them. There's simply no comparison.This post is sarcasm.
>>43612127
By Amerifat's mentallity, totally fair to go and kill her because she has stuff they want.
Perseus is a hero. Haven't you guys watched that Hollywood movie about him?
If his values weren't heroic in today's standards, they wouldn't even bother making a movie about him.
>>43612116
Some people live through doing the crazy thing.
>>43614675
>Lets kill the girl who just wants to be alone after the gods raped her and turned her and her sisters into monsters and cut her head to use it as a weapon of mass petrification
Our hero
>>43614717
In the deleted scenes of the hollywood adaptation, Medussa was only stare-raped by neptune and browses tumblr while complaining about the patriarchy. So yeah - killing her does make him a bigger hero.
>>43612877
You deserve something nice for writing this.
>>43612683
He was a serial rapist and a drunkard. Only one of those things precludes him from being a hero.
>>43614749
>Neptune
You mean Poseidon, right? we're talking Greeks here, not Romans.
>>43614790
My bad - all those motherfuckers look the same to me.
>>43614717
>Be priestess of Athena
>Poseido decides to rape you
>Athena gets mad and, because she can't do shit against Poseidon, punishes you and your family by turning you into monsters
Our Goddess of wisdom everybody
Also
>People say to weaver like Athena herself
>Thank you but that's too much
>Athena hears this
>Makes your compete against her
>You win
>Athena gets mad and turns you into a spider
Somebody get this hothead out of here
>>43614882
She born from a headache, is only logical she's mental.
>>43614790
He might have been right the first time. Some academics swear that the 'all the Greek gods are assholes' stuff mainly comes from the Romans rewriting the old myths, so the Romans and their culture and gods looked far superior to those shitty Greeks and theirs.
>>43612116
SLIDE IT!
>>43612116
What about the guy who volunteered in the soup kitchens for the homeless or the doctors without borders in africa?
>>43614910
Except the romans were massive hellaboos and even switched the gender of their god of the harvest to match the fact that the greeks had a goddess of the harvest.
They wanted to be seen as the inheritors of that culture.
>>43614882
She probably just calls herself the goddess of wisdom and browbeats the other gods until they go along with it. She's really the goddess of petty spite.
>Now I want to be the god of war too!
>That's kind of Ares' thing, isn't wisdom enough?
>I'M JUST TRYING TO EXPRESS MYSELF CREATIVELY AND YOU"RE NOT BEING SUPPORTIVE! WHY DO YOU ALWAYS DO THIS TO ME?! IT'S NOT FAIR!
>Ugh, fine whatever.
>Dude, lame.
>I know, Ares. Just humor her, okay?
>>43615004
Not a hero because unusable for war propaganda. Also commies.
>>43615004
Those are idealists, while some idealists do become heroes, it's not automatical.
>>43614882
Athena is a bitch, yeah. So was Demeter, actually. And holy shit let us not forget Artemis, the queen bitch of them all, a hormonal teenager jacked up with divine powers and a giant chip on her shoulder. She who turned her greatest and most devout follower into a stag and had him eaten by his own hounds because he accidentally saw her naked when she fucking chose to have a swim there in the first place.
>>43612014
ISIS
>>43611754
Considering several of them are assholes, rapists, murderers and so forth, probably not. The gods are certainly the biggest shit heads in the land. The original tale of Medusa for example is that she said she was prettier than Athena, so Athena made her ugly forever.
Jesus shit, Athena. Calm your asshole and let the moron stumble through life on her own merits.
>>43612877
>a black guy who just likes dinosaurs
Found the crypto-SJW.
We all know that black guy who "just" likes dinosaurs got his admission money from the purse of all of the white women he raped. What portion of it didn't immediately go to malt liquor, that is.
>>43611754
Greek heroes were acknowledged as being dicks even in Greek times. Hero didn't mean "good guy", it meant a figure venerated for past deeds and often of divine descent. In fact, a recurring theme in myths is the anti-social behavior of Greek heroes eventually getting them deservedly killed.
>>43614565
Not sure which: Are you making a distinction between Amerifat and American or using Amerifat to be insulting to America/ns?
Medusa might have been a case of murder, I think. Depending on the state and situation, Medusa might have been within her rights to use lethal force against people who unlawfully entered her home. In California, she might be run up on charges for escalating a dangerous situation.
For Perseus, that guy full on did a home invasion and committed premeditated murder.
As a fantasy story, whoever is doing the writing would need to do some filling in and/or alteration of details to make Medusa more villainous.
>Depends on the details
>>43611754
by today's standards he's a murderhobo
>>43611797
also the law, and anyone not keen on murderers, Greek heroes were dicks.
>>43620724
Keep in mind the only reason Medusa became a monster was because she was virgin priestess who got raped, and her punishment for being raped was to be turned into a monster by the gods she once prayed too.
>>43615004
Unless he kills 4 Warlord there hr is no hero of mine.
>>43615041
>goddess of petty spite
Nah, all greek gods are gods of that. Also Athena is a goddess of being good at war. Ares is a god of being a raging jackass who gets his ass beaten even by mortals (see trojan war).
>>43614021
>he was legit retarded and threatened the sun once.
>not despising the sun and everything it stands for
Fuck that flaming asshole.
>>43612069
Medusa was a priestess of another god, I forget which, that was raped by Zeus.
Crying and broken she dragged herself before the alter of her god to ask for some sort of help. Any help.
Her god got pissed at her being such a slut and so as punishment turned her into a gorgon.
Because she turned all who looked upon her to stone she ran away to an old abandoned temple in the middle of sweet fucking nowhere where she was no danger to anyone.
Then the gods sent someone to hunt her down and kill her. Because killing rape victim hermits is heroic for some reason.
>>43612145
They were in a state of biological death.
It was only temporary should be taken into consideration.
We will hang him for as long as they were stone.
There. All is fair.
>>43612265
Is the guy that defended O.J. Simpson still alive?
>>43621305
>>43612248
Its his fucking house, would you be okay with people trashing it and wasting all your sons inheritance?
>>43615043
Are you just ignoring the huge number of people regarded as heroes who were not soldiers.
The more you read about the Greek gods the more you realize that Hades was the only one that was not a shit head.
Prometheus was alright s well. Don't know if Titans count as gods for this discussion.
>>43621429
The Greek philosophers had a bit of an issue with this, how can you expect people to live morally when their gods are such massive raging dicks.
>>43621262
The Illiad was Athenian propaganda though; it made Ares look like shit on purpose because fuck those Spartans, our goddess is good at fighting and smart and shit too.
Odysseus is probably the least shitty greek hero in modern western terms because Athenian values are closer to modern than other greek values.
Still, did you know that the Odyssey makes liberal use of an ancient Greek verb that means "to make somebody's brains spill out"? Odysseus is a stone cold murderer whose idea of heroism and planning is to sneak into the enemy camp while they're all asleep, bash their brains out with rocks, steal their shit, and then brag about it the next day. One of his biggest victories in the Illiad is basically a lethal panty raid.
>>43611754
SJWs would be agog at the liberties and methods of Greek heroes.
But with any luck one of them would dedicate themselves to killing SJWs.
>>43621482
The Illiad predates that nonsense by several hundred years and was written by a man who may not even have lived in mainland Greece let alone anywhere near Athens.
>>43612116
What about people who achieve great things through less exciting/dangerous courses of action, like people who make great advances in the field of medicine?
>>43621602
Actually, the Iliad was originally composed as epic poetry somewhere in, we think, the seventh or eighth century BC. It was subsequently, as all epic poetry tends to be, modified to suit based on the needs of the situation and what/why the recital was taking place. In particular, Pisistratus (one of the Athenian tyrants) is suspected to have inserted the entire Diomedes rampage in Book 5 wholesale during an Athenian "editing" process. If you look through other sections, such as the Catalogue of Ships (all that came to Agamemnon's call), you notice very few references to Athenian heroes at all. There's one offhand note of Erechthonios, and a couple of minor bits and pieces elsewhere, but there's not actually much at all. It's pretty Doric in focus.
The running theory is that, yes, it deliberately glorified Athena at several points and demonised Ares for Athenian benefit. What makes it funny is that at the same time, you have to remember that Ares was ALSO an incredibly important god to Athens (just not as important as Athena). The Areopagus is literally named after him (it's where Ares defended himself in a trial because he'd killed a son of Poseidon, on the grounds that Poseidon's kid raped his daughter - Ares was aquitted because it was justified vengeance). He was to them a a deity of righteous vengeance (i.e. justice) and community defender, and actually appears in their ephebic oath (the oath all Athenians swore to abide by upon entrance into the military).
But also importantly, is that in Athenian conception Ares doesn't become this just and righteous defender of the city until Orestes is acquitted by Athena on the Areopagus, which is mythically after the Iliad takes place. Outside of Athens/Attica, though, none of the Athenian bullshit applied.
>>43621310
I think she was a preistess of Athens.
>half-blood chronicles don't fail me now.
Just here to remind you all which god was the nicest
>>43623318
Athena.
And yes.
Poseidon raped her on the altar of Athena's temple. Athena got so pissed off at Medusa for it that she made her into the Gorgon. On the bright side, she also made it so that Medusa, the "Bearded Lady" Gorgon, was a ward of protection against evil.
Which isn't much of a bright side, because Perseus had to come cut her head off first and have Athena put it in the shield. But well. Greeks.
>>43623337
Not a hard title to obtain in that crowd.
>>43623412
not by a long shot, but considering he's the god of death and the underworld it's an interesting dissonance.
>>43623444
God of the dead, not god of death.
>>43623337
He only raped that one chick instead of like a dozen
>>43623444
Well, consider.
Hades was not nice. He was stern and fair. He played by the rules. His laws applied to all men, and all gods, and he did not budge in their application. People often had the chance to escape him for a time, but when they failed in doing so, he was unflinching in condemning them.
Basically, he was like death in character. Entirely fair, impossible to sway or bribe, and pretty much inevitable. Harsh, but equally harsh to all, no matter their standing, or even whether they be mortal or divine.
>>43623526
Yeah, and he was ultimately more interested in her companionship than just a tap n' scrap.
And he still let her have half of the year to herself. Still kinda dickish but no where near as bad as the rest of them.
>>43623526
It's worth noting that in many extremely early versions of that narrative he seduces Persephone, and she tempts him.
He does still kinda trap her in the underworld with him, though.
>>43611754
>STOP OPPRESSING ME, SHITLORD
>I AM A STRONG, INDEPENDENT WOMAN, HEAR ME HISS
>SNEK LIVES MATTER
I'm not sure about Perseus, but I know at least in the case of figures like Achilles, they probably wouldn't be because hero has taken on a connotation of someone who is exceptionally moral by a standard with its foundations in Christian ethics, rather than simply someone who is capable of great things.
>>43623557
who is the best parent among the greek pantheon?
the fucking god of slaughter and dishonorable combat,, ares
Upon one occasion, Ares incurred the anger of Poseidon by slaying his son Halirrhothius, who had raped Alcippe, a daughter of the war-god. For this deed, Poseidon summoned Ares to appear before the tribunal of the Olympic gods, which was held upon a hill in Athens. Ares was acquitted. This event is supposed to have given rise to the name Areopagus (or Hill of Ares), which afterward became famous as the site of a court of justice.[37]
>>43621310
The goddess was Athena, and she was raped by Poseidon, who hated Athena (the feeling was mutual).
It should be noted that the most prolific version of this story we have is derived from the Roman take on the situation, where Medusa was a menace and Athena is depicted as an evil monster, because Romans absolutely hated women and resented the fact that they had to stick their dicks in them to spawn progeny. Older sources often have Athena placing the curse of Gorgonhood upon Medusa not as a punishment, but as a protection against further rape. Interestingly, it's not specified at this point that Medusa is turned into an ugly bitch, just that her visage puts such a fear into men (and not women) that they are turned to stone.
>>43623564
>>43623557
A film about the trials and tribulations of Hades would be good.
Better than Clash of the Titans anyway.
>Implying our gods aren't as bad
>Hey, dude, kill your only son to prove your loyalty to me lol
>Ok
>No dude what the fuck, you crazy
>These two cities have a high percentage of assholes, lets kill absolutely everything in the planet but this dude and half his family and 2 of some species
>He Moses, yeah, you totally aren't going to the promised land, but hear me, go there and kill everybody, kids and women specially, even the cattle
>Weren't you a nice god?
>Lol no, its their fault for born in that place that was reserved to you guys, I could have appeared before them and tell the that, but is funnier this way
>>43623729
>Better than Clash of the Titans anyway.
If you mean the original one, I doubt that.
If you mean the remake, sure, but that's hardly a challenge.
>>43623850
I meant the remake.
>>43623827
Jesus didn't even get any better until he was a teenager.
Before that, he was taming dragons, executing other children, and exploding snakes for having the nerve to bite people.
>>43623827
Hebrew and Christian gods and saints are a bunch of fucking Mary Sues. No matter how many people they kill, no matter how flawed they are, nobody hates them and only die either to old age or in sacrifice.
Meanwhile old Greek gods and heroes are a bunch of edgelords in comparison. Nothing but tragic miscarriages, rape and murdered families only to die in the least heroic way while lamenting their own demise or being generally a murderhobo.
Poorly written characters, would not play as or with.
>>43623827
>children calling a dude bald
>dude has the children Kuma Shock'd
That was hilarious.
>>43623902
Also on that note the Muhammad is also written by That Guy because not only is he a Mary Sue he is also a pedophile.
>>43611754
No, Jews would discredit them to further eviscerate our culture.
>>43611754
All of the greek gods were dicks, all of the heroes where murder hobos being lead around by gods who were dicks, and all of the monsters were innocent people who turned into dicks after witnessing what huge dicks the gods were.
>>43623827
*Tips fedora*
>>43623939
Oh no! I'm already married to my child bride and I want to fuck my cousin. Oh wait. What's that? God just told me polygamy is fine. Phew, that was lucky.
>>43623827
The Flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah are two separate events, bro.
Also, God did try to save the cities if his agent on the ground could find a number of good dudes. The agent failed, so God sent three angels. The city promptly wanted to assrape them, even after the agent offered the rapemob his delicious daughters instead.
I tell you, if any given city wanted to assrape my dudes, you can be sure as hell I'd bomb them to shit too.
>>43623827
>Writing like any of those things ever happened.
>>43623999
>Not even the unborn children were good
Yeah, the agent "failed".
This is real life, not D&D there's no absolute evil, God wanted to blow up those cities because he was bored.
>>43624057
Yeah, not like Perseus beating Cetus which actually happened, right?
>>43624070
>saving the unborn children which may or may not end up being good and have my dudes be assraped
Vs
>vaporizing the city, preventing my dudes from being assraped
My dudes will have precedence 100% of the time.
>>43624070
>>Not even the unborn children were good
Unborn (or more specifically, unbaptised) children are indeed burdened by initial sin and if they die before first commune with the church, they will go to the first layer of Hell.
This probably includes miscarriages and abortions.
>>43624121
>I'm the Abrahamic God, omniscient and allmighty, I'm going to try to save the good people of th...nah, too hard, lets blow stuff, oh man, look how they run in flames, this is so funny...oh, you want water? hehe, water is coming don't worry.
>>43624209
>Has 9 layers of hell with crazy as fuck tortures
>One heaven
I'm starting to think this God isn't as good as he wants us to believe
>>43624209
God confirmed American, no other would condemn the childrens for the sins of the father.
>>43624246
Dante is not church doctrine
>>43624225
If they attacked the dudes I sent to "save the good people", I would stop being nice and press the red button too.
>>43624246
Heaven is layered too.
>>43624303
>I can create the universe in 6 days
>I can't retrieve some good people from a fucking human city
Seems like you didn't try enough, "God"
Same as tricking Adam and Eve
>Hey you, I know you guys are retards and can't diffrenciate shit from food, but don't go there and eat those delicious apples that will give you the knowledge.
>Holy fuck, you went there and ate apples, out of here!
Also kicking Lilith out of the Eden for not being Adam's sex slave.
>>43624209
>>43624246
Reminder that the Divine Comedy was Dante's self-insert power fantasy where he got to put all the people he didn't like in Hell and is not considered "canon" by any Church.
>>43624384
How dare she want to be on the top for once.
>>43624291
>no other would condemn the childrens for the sins of the father.
For all the blame british colonialism gets, thats basically what all of the middle east is about.
"Hate on everyone from that other tribe cause something or other they did, so now we gotta have blood for blood and i dont even remember why, but the british all lumped us in the same 'country' so why not?"
>>43623827
Don't forget Job. A humble and faithful man who had his family killed, life destroyed and made a shattered, weeping wreck of a man because of a beer bet between Yahweh and Satan. A bet the giant invisible asshole,knew he'd win, because you know, omnipotence.
>>43624384
who the fuck is lilith? that sounds like something from WoD
>>43624462
>A bet the giant invisible asshole,knew he'd win
God never jobs
>>43624432
>"Hate on everyone from that other tribe cause something or other they did, so now we gotta have blood for blood and i dont even remember why
that's not specifically Britain or Middle East, that's vast majority of Europe
>>43624493
There are some folklore stories about Adam's supposed first wife named Lilith, who was cast out of Eden for some reason or another.
This isn't explicitly in the Bible. I'm not a theology scholar, but as far as I know it's just a myth retroactively applied to explain the appearance of some vaguely demonic character in the Old Testament who was occasionally referred to as either Lilith or a similar translation.
It's often used in many urban fantasy style storytelling because in a literary sense it's the name of the first demonic waifu.
>>43624493
Lilith is in the Gnostic texts of the bible. The true first woman, made separate from Adam. She was banished from Eden for refusing to bow to Adam's every whim and having an independent will of her own. Afterwards, god made Eve from Adam to be his perfect little servant and plaything.
No.
They were pirates, brigands, murderers; interested in the greatest personal gain and by extension deeds worthy of envy. They would only show hospitality to other great figures; strengthening the elite circlejerk.
Wait, yes.
>>43624533
>This isn't explicitly in the Bible.
It's so called Apocrypha, "unofficial" part of the Scripture.
>>43624225
>>43624121
>>43624070
It's worth mentioning the Gnostics saw Old Testament God as the Demiurge, or the God of the Material World (and a huge asshole) while the God of the New Testament was the God of the Spiritual World, which was virtuous.
>>43623318
>mfw have mark of athena and blood of olympus sitting on my shelf
>still havn't finished the series after like a year
>>43624577
Also, unofficial and official depends on a bunch of priests, and changes from time to time, I think the current "official" rules are less than 100 years old.
>>43624531
Except europe isnt in a war with itself. While most of the middle east is, in one way or another.
It was like that in the past though.
>>43624779
>Except europe isnt in a war with itself.
Someone's working on remedying that though
>>43624209
>Unborn (or more specifically, unbaptised) children are indeed burdened by initial sin
Which is messed up and completely morally indefensible. Good way to test if someone is a psychopath though, if they defend the idea of original sin as somehow acceptable you know they are insane.
>>43611754
>Ajax walks in and pulls someones head off
>Arkantos raises his spear in protest
>Odysseus says something about a horse
>Agamemnon wants to take all the credit
>Chiron shakes his head
>mfw AoM is getting a chinese expansion
>>43621525
which is the concept of beast the primordial
>>43611754
>would
What, in a hypothetical scenario where today's standards are exactly the same as today's standards? Here, let me help you:
>are Greek heroes like pic related still considered heroes by today's standards?
>>43624983
>new AoM expansion
>>43621429
not really. He did kidnapped and had her locked up in his cribwith a little help of his ol buddy Zeusfor quite some time and bounded her to return back to the underworld in the winter after giving her underworld-brand pomegrenate seeds, tricking her
>>43625502
*Persephone
>>43624577
Some of these apocryphal Scriptures get weird and include things such as a talking dog and a flying wizard battle.
There's also the month Jesus supposedly spent on Earth after returning from the dead.
I can only assume that involved wicked sick BMX races and mystery-solving.
>>43625527
Not going to try and excuse that but its still less shit headed than the Zeus method.
Zues would just straight up fuck her whether she liked it or not. He might disguise himself, use magic or what ever but either he would fuck her or he would fuck her up. Then leave her. Because what does Zeus care? There's lots of mortal bitches and they all look the same to him.
Hades at least cared about Persephone. He was a total fucking creep by human standards but nowhere near the fuck awful of Posidon or Zeus.
He loved her and wanted her to love him back. She didn't love him and he couldn't understand it. Not in a "how could she not love some one as awesome as me" type of douchbagery but in a forlorn sort of broken understanding "love is a two way thing. I love her. Why does she not love me? What have I done wrong?" sort of way.
And in the end he did let her go. Can you imagine Posidon or Zeus letting her go? they would have raped and/or killed her and then tried to blame her if anyone complained.
>Greek mythology thread
>suddenly, shitposts about Abrahamic religions clogging the thread
really now, /tg/. if i wanted a deep discussion and fedora tippings, there's always >>>/his/. but of course, being antsy about that is far more entertaining than this isn't it?
>>43625502
Depends on the source, bro, in most stories both were in love even though there was kidnapping.
>>43625796
Are you suggesting that Greek mythology belongs on /tg/ while Abrahamic religion belongs on /his/?
>>43623827
First off you're getting the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah mixed together.
Second Sodom and Gomorrah had plenty of chances to not get destroyed, Lot couldn't find even a single good person in them and when God sent some angels down the peoples first instinct was to gang rape them.
Third Moses's exclusion from the promised land was his own fault.
Fourth several nations were given the opportunity to surrender with decent terms.
>>43614021
>And let's not get started on Odysseus, who was basically the first literary example of someone playing Renegade Shepard.
This is pretty accurate.
"Who are you?"
"Nobody"
[RENEGADE INTERRUPT]
*Stabs in eye*
>>43625910
To be fair he was gonna eat Odysseus and his crew.
>>43625822
Yes? Greek mythology is no more relevant in today's world than lord of the ring or game of thrones. Judeo-Christian beliefs are still a source of western morality.
>>43625822
He is probably stuck on the stupid distinction where criticising deities is fine unless it happens to be the Abrahamic one. Then its fedora tipping because reasons.
>>43625967
No one is worshiping greek deities, euphoric dipshit. Unlike Abrahamic God which is worshiped by most of people alive today.
>>43625961
To be fair Odysseus wasn't content to just leave it that and loudly bragged about how awesome he was when they were running away. IIRC that's how he wound up on Poseidon's shit list, which is what caused the whole misadventure to begin with.
>>43625910
>Odysseus, should we offer sacrifice to Poseidon?
"Poseidon can kiss my ass!"
>>43625908
Sure thing, bro, and those women were just badmouthing Zeus, he's a faithful husband who did nothing wrong.
>>43625822
look, you're discussing religions unrelated to greek mythology in thread that poses as such. might as well we go around discussing how the chinese celestial bureaucracy and how their gods are dicks to people and each other in here
>>43625963
And this distinction relates to traditional gaming in what way?
>>43626025
That'd be a pretty typical and minor derail by /tg/ standards. Not sure I see the problem.
>>43625908
I always assumed that Moses intentionally kept his people out of the Holy Land in the hopes that they would learn to be less violent and learn a bit of temperance in the wasteland.
The moment he drops dead there is nothing holding them back and they all flood in under Aaron's banner and it was a bloodbath.
>>43626025
Are you getting assravaged by a couple of jokes about your religion? you think people posting stuff like this >>43624225 really think that's what is in the bible?
>>43625822
>>43626080
As far as I know God told them to kill everything, even the cattle, he even sent angels to help them by blowing some horns to bring the walls down.
>>43626091
you thought i was christian or something? and no, it tends to get annoying when stuff like this happen since it only just attracts more derailments
>>43611960
Jason used a mind controlled girl to kill her own brother and mutilate the body so he could fuck with her dad. And the thing he's remembered for, he didn't actually do anything to accomplish.
As dickish as Perseus and, especially, Odysseus are, Jason was worse, with none of the heroism.
>>43626099
Right, those damn anti-theist Norse pagans.
>>43611754
>DEM GREEKS DEY WUS NIGGAS
>Dr. Goldstein agrees with Dr. Shenequa and would like to add that doubting the above is as good as denying the Holocaust.
and all of it would fly again.
>>43626106
And I'm sure that that is what Aaron's motley crew wrote about it.
But Moses was old and had seen some shit and didn't want to see more.
Reading Exodus I couldn't help but think that maybe, just maybe, he was intentionally keeping them out of the Promised Land in the hope that they would forget about it and adapt to life as nomads or at least go in under a banner of peaceful intent.
>>43626270
Are we now talking about literary fiction or historical context? Because Exodus story is in the end reminder of times when jews were still strictly nomadic people. They actually never been into Egypt.
>>43626004
Which is completely and utterly irrelevant.
Being actively believed in does not confer validity or immunity from criticism.
>>43626330
I'm just saying what I though when reading Exodus. I'm a coal man not a fucking scholar.
Although their must have been at least some Jewish population in the Egyptian lands for the Aksumite kingdoms thing to happen.
>>43626539
>Although their must have been at least some Jewish population in the Egyptian lands for the Aksumite kingdoms thing to happen.
What?
>>43614564
I chuckled even before the spoiler. 11/10 friend.
>>43621310
Are you all just giant faggots who forget that she only turned MEN to stone? Chicks were safe.
I guess I can see why that would slip under the radar though since Greeks didn't really think of women as people.
>>43611960
Perseus killed Medusa, who in spite of her tragic backstory, was at least a monster hostile to other living beings. Otherwise, he mostly did good things.
Jason was just a generally a selfish cockface and got what he deserved for betraying his yandere semi-divine wizard wife.
>>43626004
>christian shitposters show up to talk about /pol/ shit in a good old fationed "man the gods are dicks" thread
topkek
>>43621310
>taking mythology literally
Man what do you even think you are you doing?
>>43628728
Any thread talking about IRL religions will invariably have faggots coming in to turn it into an argument about the morality of Christianity.
>>43628205
> Otherwise, he mostly did good things.
Pretty much true. Perseus wasn't really a "good guy" by our standards but overall he did the fewest amount of objectionable things.
Even Heracles, who generally meant well, screwed up pretty bad. People seem to forget the whole reason he went on those Twelve Labors was because he had to atone for killing his family in a fit of tard rage.
>>43628886
>atone for killing his family in a fit of tard rage.
Which, as generally told, was brought on by Hera.
>>43611754
Well, we DO still call them Greek "Heroes" so...probably
>>43611754
Depends on the context. As they were seen in the myth? Yes, because Medusa and the Gorgons were seen as 'evil'.
Today we understand the full context of the original myth, Medusa was a victem of circumstance who was raped by Poseidon and then cursed, because she was raped in a temple thereby defiling is. This incidentally is what *actual* rape culture looks like Tumblr.
Based on our modern understanding of it, no. Jason would be an anti-hero at best. A man who does great things but does them in very morally dubious ways, and causes a lot of death. The Biopic would be great. Black people would love it, right up there with Scarface.
Heracles would hold up a little better, being the tragic hero - killing his family after all wasn't really his fault, and he spent the rest of his life trying to tone. Admittedly he wasn't good at the whole FIDELITY thing afterwards, probably due to PTSD, which eventually got him killed. That just adds to his mystique as a flawed, tragic hero though.
The Greek Gods, incidentally, would all be villains with the exception of a few like Hades.
>>43623720
>>43627900
Interesting, I didn't realize they only turned men to stone.
>>43631441
Yeah but "heroes" in the case of dudes like Theseus and Achilles applies to a translation of a term which in the contemporary context meant something more along the line of "protagonist" rather than the modern connotations for the term.
Greek heroes were not intent to be perceived as particularly ethical or moral; in fact their shortcomings, mistakes, and character flaws were major parts of their stories.
Even their gods regularly acted like petty, capricious douchehammers.
>>43614565
Amerifat mentality dictates she's 100% fine.
STAND YOUR GROUND YOU FUCKING COMMIE LIBERAL SHIT
>>43635022
as an amerifat, I support this.
You stand your ground, goddamnit.
There is significant anger in the american society around our enemies not standing their ground, and instead doing geurilla warfare and shit.
>>43631455
athena was pretty chill also, if i remember correct
Hephaestus also
>>43631455
That's bullshit, btw, completely.
Gorgon's head was used as talisman worn by women and used on the door of households and brothels.
If you think of the story from another perspective. A priestess of Athena was raped by Athena's number one rival Poseidon. There's no way Athena's going to go to war with Poseidon. So the next best thing Athena can do to protect her priestess is to make her UNRAPABLE.
Gorgon turns any man looking at her into stone, any MAN. Gorgon received the best anti rape enchantment there can be. Man can't even look at her without getting killed. What more can a woman ask for protection from rape?
Remember, again, Gorgon's head was worn as talisman by women and used on brothels as PROTECTION.
Don't get sucked into rape culture crap.
>>43635187
considering the united states loves guerrilla fighting, this is a massive hypocrisy
we train our soldiers in the art of it from the get go and then tell them not to do it when we deploy them because we would actually potentially win a war if we used it. and winning wars are not as profitable in an industrial military complex as sustaining a war so we tell our soldiers to stand out in the open like idiots and get shot at
>>43614882
Sounds about right for female wisdom
>>43635289
we have to be ready for the eventuality that soviet russia will take over the continent.
This is something in the blood of every american. One day, we will have to fight the bear.Goddamnit get back up bear, we're lost without you
>>43631455
>>43635278
Cont'd
Your version of Medusa's story was written by Ovid an Augustan writer. Augustus (the first Roman Emperor) ran a campaign based on "virtue" which one of them being the virtue for women to stay chaste. It was only then, hundreds of years after Medusa's myth was born, the romans, under the then political environment changed her story to that of punishment.
Stop spewing shit when you only know a sliver of the entire thing. A little knowledge is dangerous, as the saying goes.
>>43635278
Thank you.
>>43635278
So what was the original perspective about how righteous it was for Perseus to come to her remote lair and slay her?
>>43635314
>>43635278
>>43631455
Cont'd more
Even from Ovid's version you can see that Medusa's not all bad. From Medusa's blood Pegasus was born which aided Perseus continue his heroic quests.
The original myth, much like all other hellenic myths were a symbolic story of some historic fact or a description of natural events. In Medusa's case it's a story of basically a change of religion for the Athenians. The priestess of the gorgon cult worn the mask, the beheading is removal of those mask, and rebirth of pegasus symbolizes the cult remade into the Athenian cult, the one that worships Athena. Obviously, with a change of regime, you have to shit talk the old regime.
>>43635355
... i thought the original myth was that Aphrodite grew jealous of this one girls beauty, did a bunch of bull crap gods do when they feel scorned, and then when that didnt work out for Aphrodite she just ups and curses the poor girl
>>43614021
>but people forget he was legit retarded and threatened the sun once.
Apollo was proto-Lucifer.
Are you a satanist?
Fuck Lucifer.
>>43624246
>The most popular and commonly accepted view of hell among laymen still is that of Renaissance self-insert fanfiction of a guy who waifu'd Virgil.
>>43614882
Eris did nothing wrong when she created the golden apple.
Fuck the other goddesses.
Also
>Ares and Athena fight for "God og War" title. Non Spartan/Athenians say fuck it and exalt Polemos instead.
10/10 religion.
>>43623526
>>43623557
Originally he falls in love with Persephone and asks Zeus to let them marry.
And he says yes, but Demeter is motherfucking mental and a high contender for worst greek myth character, so Hades has to feed Persephone the fruits of the underworld to keep her mother from forcing her to return "home".
>>43614021
Odysseus wasn't renegade Shepard
he is arguably one of the most likable of the greek heros
he didn't start fights just to start fights but he damn well ended them using his brains and pretty much nothing else.
he was pretty faithful to his wife also, literally takes a witch elevated to the status of a goddess to seduce him using date rape drugs
he killed off all his wifes suitors who knew he was alive and lost at sea, pretty legitimate response even in this day and age when soldiers go off to war and come back on that shit.
>>43635720
Well what he did to the cyclops was a dick move but he was immediately punished for it so
>>43612069
As I recall though, she was very isolated and ridiculously out of the way, the first third of the Perseus legends is just getting is a few dozen fetchquests just to FIND the damn Medusa.
It's not unreasonable that anyone else she encountered and subsequently turned to stone was someone similar to Perseus, that is there to kill her.
>>43635278
>>43635314
>>43635355
I did not kow that. thanks anon, blame the history channel for.propagating the incorrect version.
Out of curiosity any secret versions of The Furies I could know about? It's for a thing involving Greek myth, I got a dude associated with classical entities of vengeance and Medusa and the Furies are primary there
>>43635720
>Odysseus wasn't renegade Shepard
His entire journey happened because he faffed around, distrusted his own crew and made a number of stupid and reckless decisions, even when you leave out the fact that he talked shit about the God of the Sea before going on a voyage.
Calling him Renegade Shepard is unfair to Renegade Shepard.
>>43635475
Whatever. Hell isn't in the bible anyway. Closest we got is lake of fire from book of revelation but it is created after end times and its sole prisoners are two beasts and Satan. Idea of hell as a place ruled by the devil is completely unbiblical.
GOD WHY IS HERA SUCH A FUCKING CUNT
>Daily reminder that greek myths are cautionary tales and you weren't supposed to emulate their protagonists.
>>43635856
Hell incidentally is an actual physical place, like mount Olympus. It was a pit where they burned their trash.
>>43635875
Romans probably.
Also rmemeber her husband tricked then raped her
>>43635875
Because she is married to the biggest manslut in the universe. Who as far as I know never had a child with her but literally cannot keep his dick out of various random strangers he meets while romping around Greece.
It wears on you.
>>43635907
Hephaestus
and zeus took one look at him and was like.... damn, i thought incest with my sister-wife was going to be hot but if results in this monstrosity I don't think i can ever get an erection looking at her again.
and thus the greeks learned incest was wrong, and just to compound this fact if no one learned anything from this they made several more stories about the horrors of incest.
>>43635278
>Don't get sucked into rape culture crap.
>>43635314
>Augustus (the first Roman Emperor) ran a campaign based on "virtue" which one of them being the virtue for women to stay chaste.
I dunno, man. A lot of the old heroes were a lot more 'Messily kill all offending beings' than is generally accepted these days.
>>43635907
Zeus had a child with everyone but Hera, including himself
>>43636171
nope wrongo
thanks for trying
>>43636090
you forgot some
besides Hephaestus
there was ares, hebe, eileithyia, and enyo
only hephestus and ares are considered more of the major gods but the others were indeed gods.
>>43623556
>and he did not budge in their application
"You want to borrow my dog? Sure, Herc, just bring him back when you're done."
"You want to take your wife back? Sure, Orph, just make sure you don't look at her until you're both out of the underworld."
He bent his rules all the time. Just had to give him a good enough reason.
>>43626160
He also literally failed every heroic task set for him, because he relied on Medea's magic to accomplish everything, or on the other crew of the Argo, which included the Dioscuri twins, Achilles' badass father Peleus, Orpheus, and fucking Herakles himself. The Argonautica has a point where Herakles literally says Jason would be better off as some woman's bedroom bitch than actually on the Argo trip.
And in the end, Jason betrays Medea, which breaks his oath to Hera, and she was the only goddess who gave a shit about him, so he died broken, abandoned and alone.
>>43635907
Zeus had several children with Hera.
Hebe, goddess of youth.
Hephaestus, god of the forge. (This is disputed, as in some versions Hera conceived him alone.)
Ares, god of war.
That's just from the well-known gods, there are probably others I'm forgetting.
>>43623337
That's not Hermes.
>>43623489
Yep, the god of Death itself is Thanatos.
>>43624209
Dantes Inferno is Fanfiction, not Canon.
>>43636856
One might argue that so is Bible. Except it's a collaborative effort of several authors.
>>43636336
only one version disputed Hephaestus being born by Hera alone
myth was that hera was pissed at zeus for being able to asexually reproduce athena so she made hephaestus to piss him off.
meanwhile every pot and pan we can find that depicts the birth of athena shows hephaestus present and in most cases was the one to take an axe to zeus's head to free athena.
most people disregard the hera birthed hephaestus since it was pretty much one lone mad scholar versus all of greece
>>43623337
Reminder that Cerebus comes from the Greek, Kerberos which means 'spotted'.
>>43623729
will never happen hades is forever black marked as "Satan" in all hollywood productions.
he is always depicted as the greedy brother that wants his other brothers realms and power, along with fire powers
poisiden was the real dick but no one gives a shit. the underworld is actually rated as being better than poisdens realm since it has the wealth of the earth, such as bronze, gold, and silver EVERYWHERE.
sailors literally thought poisden started storms to wreck ships for their loot because there was nothing valuable at the bottom of the sea.
>>43638072
you only know that because you read the dresden files.
go home.
>>43638095
Not the same guy, but I found it out from X-Factor.
>>43638110
that book he was reading the dresden files
so you found out about it through him none the less
>>43611754
Even by the standards of other ancient cultures Greek heroes were massive assholes lucky to have one redeeming feature at best
>>43638207
You dresden fans are so dumb and gay it's embarrassing to watch.
>>43638257
i think the original greek stories were not to exalt these people but to tell stories of cautionary tale about the hubris of man and the pettiness of gods and nature.
>>43638330
I dunno some of them are but not all of them, and the assholes are pretty evenly distributed
>>43621363
The sun goes to hell every night. Do you even mythology?
>>43626539
You mean the jews of Ethiopia? They claim their first converts were the Queen of Sheba and her retinue when she visited Solomon because his God proved himself to be great and wise.
Jason probably wouldn't be, because he done goofed with Medea. That dude got fucked five ways to Thursday by her for what he did.
Odysseus is still best hero.
Would Gilgamesh be considered a hero?
>Bonus question
Who is the memeist hero?
I vote Menelaos for being a total kek.
>>43636090
Hephaestus was not the result of incest you mong.
Hephaestus was Hera's attempt top get back at Zeus for birthing Athena parthenogenically.
Hephaestus was only incest in the sense that Hera had to fuck herself to create him.
The fact that he was all crippled and shit was because Hera was his only parent. If he had come out whole, Zeus wouldn't have been "da best god" anymore and his timai would have been challenged because shit son, why is this lady able to make gods that are smart AND physically whole by herself?
>>43615386
>turned her greatest and most devout follower into a stag and had him eaten by his own hounds because he accidentally saw her naked
Sounds familiar.
>>43626025
>might as well we go around discussing how the chinese celestial bureaucracy
Yes?
>>43612145
Not saying you're wrong but I don't know of anything to back that claim up that isn't a modern remake.
>>43613925
After cheating on her constantly, as well.
