http://news.nationalpost.com/arts/avowed-racist-h-p-lovecraft-no-longer-representing-world-fantasy-award
I honestly have no idea how to feel about this.
>>43610428
On one hand, lots of people who should be acknowledged were racists, like the founding fathers.
On the other hand. It's just an award nobody cares about you fucking sperg.
Heh. The separation of the author and his works is not a new thing. Also, that statue was fucking ugly, holy shit.
"Award no one has heard of changes design that's never seen."
Knut Hamsun gave his Nobel prize medal to a Nazi organization after winning. It doesn't make Pan a bad book.
HP lovecraft named his cat "niggerman" which is both racist and hilarious. As a culture we need to stop applying modern values to figures of history.
>>43610428
Terrifying Bug Eye'd Nightmare Man no longer representing World Fantasy Award
>>43610428
>Last year, Daniel José Older launched a petition, which was signed by over 2500 people, asking for the change, because while the creator of the Cthulhu mythos “did leave a lasting mark on speculative fiction, he was also an avowed racist and a terrible wordsmith.”
what a faggot
>>43610573
>a terrible wordsmith
Okay, the racism I understand, but a bad writer? really?
>>43610573
>José
Everything you need to know right there.
>>43610618
Don't you know, anon? Being racist means everything one creates is trash to be thrown into the garbage bin of history. So sayeth the social justice warriors.
>>43610573
I mean, he's not actually wrong. Lovecraft wasn't very good at describing things and tended to fall back on "No? really, it was literally too horrible to describe" and/or toss around a bucket of five dollar words boiling down to "looked like raw fish but giant". And there's really no dodging the fact that Lovecraft was racist even for his day.
Now, that said? Lovecraft's works are classics of fantasy and horror, and he used his weaknesses well and shored them up with good storytelling. Saying he shouldn't be honored because of his racism, much less starting a petition about it? And he's crowing about 2500 signatures? Christ almighty what a faggot.
>>43610665
Do I have to also hate Gabriel García Marquez and Salman Rushdie to fit in the shitty hivemind? Fuck off, cunt.
>>43610530
>As a culture we need to stop applying modern values to figures of history.
but then how can we lord ourselves over our predecessors?
Actually improve on their works? That seems like it would take too much effort.
>>43610774
No, you just have togo back.
>>43610530
Pretty sure that's just the protagonist from Rats in the Walls.
>>43610839
>implying I'm American in the first place
Enjoy your Japanese-owned board, faggot.
>>43610428
It's bullshit.
>>43610836
Modern media is the best it ever has been, the works influenced by Lovecraft are better than his work.
Finally they can put Kurt Vonnegut on the award.
>>43610428
>Last year, Daniel José Older launched a petition, which was signed by over 2500 people, asking for the change, because while the creator of the Cthulhu mythos “did leave a lasting mark on speculative fiction, he was also an avowed racist and a terrible wordsmith.”
>terrible wordsmith
Now that's just trying to start a fight.
>>43610836
Or we can take them as a whole, accept what they gave to mankind while at the same time disagreeing with their views. Just like we can acknowledge Newton's great discoveries while being capable of saying "well, he was right, but only for a tiny amount of cases".
>>43610910
no he named his actual (black) cat that.
To be fair, it wasn't exactly unusual
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger_(dog)
>>43610931
I don't agree. I liked the cthulhu mythos when the elder gods were too horrible and gross to ever possibly overcome, thus creating a sense of dread and hopelessness in the reader. They lose a lot of their cache when reduced to silly Godzilla monsters.
>>43610974
I'd believe you, but I haven't found any source that corroborates you.
>>43610573
>2,500 people
>Less than the bisexual male population of your average public US college
I hate this. People have no sense of scale any more.
>>43611171
>college males
>not entirely bisexual
git gud sonny.
>>43610428
>Terrible wordsmith
Oh man, they read his stuff right? I could think of a hundred insults for lovecraft but that isn't one of them, yea he had his flaws but plenty of his stuff is decent. I give him points for that and research if nothing else, the mountains of madness geological stuff still tracks me in my mind today.
>>43610704
>And he's crowing about 2500 signatures?
Are these e-signatures or real, paper signatures from real people? (Please tell me it's the former, because that just makes it better.)
>>43611257
>>43610618
HP Lovecraft was a terrible writer. What he wrote begat terror.
>>43611424
Oh, you...
>>43610573
To be fair though lovecraft was an idea guy - but not a good writer.
>>43611373
>Oh man, they read his stuff right?
I can guarantee you almost none of the people who signed this petition actually have
On the Creation of Niggers (1912)
by H. P. Lovecraft
When, long ago, the gods created Earth
In Jove’s fair image Man was shaped at birth.
The beasts for lesser parts were next designed;
Yet were they too remote from humankind.
To fill the gap, and join the rest to Man,
Th’Olympian host conceiv’d a clever plan.
A beast they wrought, in semi-human figure,
Filled it with vice, and called the thing a Nigger.
>>43610530
>named his cat "niggetman"
Holy fuck my sides
>>43611600
Nobody is surprised that Lovecraft was racist.
But even then his racist views when he was younger are not those of the older Lovecraft. He mellowed a lot as he grew older and more worldly.
That piece you posted is from a very different guy than the man who wrote Asa and Hannah, the black married couple in The Strange Case of Charles Dexter Ward.
Hey! Did you guys know that H P Lovecraft was *gasp* A RACIST!?
>>43611040
The cat in "The Rats in the Walls" was named after his actual cat. I went to find a source for you and Wikipedia cited one of S.T. Joshi's works, which I would have bothered to track down and quote directly if this wasn't already a pretty well-known little factoid.
So, yeah. You can find source if you really want to, but it's true. Not that it's particularly surprising.
>>43610428
>Lovecraft was an “avowed racist” with “hideous opinions".
Fair enough. The dude did write "On the Creation of Niggers", after all.
>"He was also... a terrible wordsmith"
Hey what the fuck. You can't just sneak that in there, you jackass.
>https://radishmag.wordpress.com/2014/04/21/cosmic-horror/
I'll just leave this here. The horror!
Speaking of racist cat names, I knew a guy who had some kind of Egyptian breed of cat that he called "Dune Coon"
The only time someone called him out on it, he claimed it was just "Duncan".
>>43610974
His childhood cat was named Nigger, and I'm pretty sure he himself didn't name it that. He named the cat in Rats in the Walls Niggerman because he loved cats and fondly remembered his childhood pet.
>>43611424
> Hearty Keks
Time to stop thinking that award means anything now, I guess.
It's like people treat his racism as some kind of groundbreaking revelation, which is literally nothing more than the septic victim complex in today's 'minority' society.
If you can't separate an author's views from their work, you don't deserve to read them. Whereas yes they had profound impact, you need to view in their own light, not under a filter. I can write racist shit all day if I want, that doesn't actually make me a racist.
Good God, now I'm just pissed.
>>43611514
>but not a good writer.
Have you actually read any of his works? I've read literally every single story of his print, he had an antiquated style but could create some fantastic prose. The Colour out of Space is one example of being genuinely creepy at points.
>>43610836
Fuck presentism, basically.
>>43611898
Good thing it wasn’t about reading his works, then.
>>43611773
You really didn't have to.
One thing I noted that I found sort of funny in re-reading Lovecraft was that in the Dreamquest, Randolph Carter (an author self-insert), comes across ghouls. He is appalled by their ghoulish appearance and disgusted - but within the context of the story, the ghouls are nothing short of total helpful bros. And, what's more interesting, is that the author (Lovecraft himself) points out this disparity, albeit with a grimly fatalistic "he can't help but see them like that."
I think that at this point Lovecraft had matured enough to be maybe recognizing his flaws a little. What we have to understand is that he was a very exceedingly sheltered guy for much of his life. Indeed, one could easily draw correlations between the racism and intolerance of Lovecraft and the racism and intolerance you find in social shut ins frequenting Internet image boards.
It's sort of sad where people are so stupid that they need everything spoonfed to them in terms of "good" and "bad" or "racist" and "not-racist." By attempting such codification, we are falling into the same lazy thinking that allows racism itself to flourish.
>>43611600
Its funny to think in 1912 he was 22. I think he was just being college age edgy.
>>43612036
That's pretty insightful. I've also noticed that while Lovecraft's writing is usually about a fear of outsiders, there's a strong undercurrent of identifying with the outsiders in it as well.
>>43610704
>Lovecraft
>Bad at describing things.
You're not taking into account, monsters aside, how damn good Lovecraft was at setting a scene and instilling a mood. His descriptions of places are always what really sell the story for me, especially when he's on his game like in Colour Out of Space.
And for the monsters, I think we have to accept that at this point we're probably a little jaded and oversatured with that. Going back to the source of it all likely seems far less impressive.
>>43612036
I call it the Schultz effect, Let's say there is a man in London called Schultz, he is a banker.
Beside him lives a family of three generations, the Grandfather is horribly racist towards those awful kikes, his son is mildly racist but doesn't allow it to influence his opinions of him and the two interact in a business fashion, the Grandson who actively opposes both his father and his grandfather actively attempts to spite them by proving mister Schultz's lack of otherness but has no idea and considers the man to be truly his other, despite his good intentions he still considers Shultz an 'other'.
All three men are incapable of truly address Shultz, aside from the families cousin who regularly drinks with mister Schultz at a nearby bar and the two are actually closet alcoholics.
Everyone I know is kind of between the Grandfather and the son, active racism versus that stupid unaware kind without any kind of humanism, that often leads to anal retentive 'race cataloging' and blame game. And I am an alcoholic.
>>43610691
No lie, was in a creative writing seminar earlier today where one student completely bashed another's work because of "misogynistic lines" spoken by a character.
>>43612148
>All three men are incapable of truly address Shultz, aside from the families cousin who regularly drinks with mister Schultz
Who would the cousin be in the context of
>Everyone I know is kind of between the Grandfather and the son
the guy who doesn't really care about whether or not Schultz is a jew or not and considers him an equal?
>>43610428
Fuck this shit, and fuck those who're gonna freak out about "cultural marxism" and "political correctness". And fuck this shit once more for fueling those who're gonna freak out about it.
Fuck.
>>43610428
>I am forced into speech because men of science have refused to follow my advice without knowing why.
Lovecraft is a slightly better than that lady who wrote Twilight.
Slightly.
Giving people an award shaped like a bust of the guy is like the literary version of the Razzies, I'm guessing?
>>43612318
>>43610704
>lovecraft
>not good at describing things
After reading At the Mountains of Madness I knew EXACTLY what a fucking Elder One looked like. Only thing in my head that was different from most depictions of it was that I thought since the thing had radial symmetry it had five wings instead of two.
>>43612269
You know, I shouldn´t be pissed cuz it basically doesn´t mean anything but it still irks me that people can´t seperate themselves culturally from things almost a 100 years ago.
>>43612359
>Popular imagination, I judge, responded actively to our wireless bulletins of Lake’s start northwestward into regions never trodden by human foot or penetrated by human imagination; though we did not mention his wild hopes of revolutionising the entire sciences of biology and geology.
>>43611237
>projecting your faggotry this hard
>>43612378
Yes?
>>43612318
Yawn.
>>43612410
Yes, what? That's a tortured shit-show of terrible writing.
>"Objects are eight feet long all over. Six-foot, five-ridged barrel torso three and five-tenths feet central diameter, one foot end diameters. Dark gray, flexible, and infinitely tough. Seven-foot membranous wings of same color, found folded, spread out of furrows between ridges. Wing framework tubular or glandular, of lighter gray, with orifices at wing tips. Spread wings have serrated edge. Around equator, one at central apex of each of the five vertical, stave-like ridges are five systems of light gray flexible arms or tentacles found tightly folded to torso but expansible to maximum length of over three feet. Like arms of primitive crinoid. Single stalks three inches diameter branch after six inches into five substalks, each of which branches after eight inches into small, tapering tentacles or tendrils, giving each stalk a total of twenty-five tentacles.
>"At top of torso blunt, bulbous neck of lighter gray, with gill-like suggestions, holds yellowish five-pointed starfish-shaped apparent head covered with three-inch wiry cilia of various prismatic colors.
>"Head thick and puffy, about two feet point to point, with three-inch flexible yellowish tubes projecting from each point. Slit in exact center of top probably breathing aperture. At end of each tube is spherical expansion where yellowish membrane rolls back on handling to reveal glassy, red-irised globe, evidently an eye.
If you're gonna criticize Lovecraft's writing criticize his repetitive wording. Seriously, the amount of times I heard Cyclopean in that story I wanted to hurl.
>>43612430
Context, anon, context. Without that we know not what we're examining. Imagine your arse and flatulence without you in the picture.
>>43612478
It's the introduction to the second chapter of Lovecraft's "masterpiece."
I understand why you'd need context, because he turned a simple sentence into a word-jumble in two clauses.
But the fact that you need the context should do a pretty good job of demonstrating how little meaning was conveyed with so many words.
>>43612511
Okay then, let me turn it into the smaller sentence form.
>I think people got excited when we said Lake was going to places nobody had seen, but we didn't mention his talk about revolutionising biology and geology.
That also makes no sense. Within the context of the novel, that "word-jumble" has as much meaning as that sentence does.
>>43612511
I wouldn't call At the Mountains of Madness his masterpiece.
It's, honestly, probably the Call of Cthulhu. Maybe the Shadow Over Innsmouth.
Also, did it ever occur to you that it's a word jumble is not necessarily a bad thing? It's easy enough to read if you're not being an ass.
>>43610428
>http://news.nationalpost.com/arts/avowed-racist-h-p-lovecraft-no-longer-representing-world-fantasy-award
>
>I honestly have no idea how to feel about this.
Childish bullshit. People always ask whether I'm not bothered by HPL (I'm black) and I never understand what they mean. It's idiocy.
>>43612545
You did slightly better than Lovecraft.
>>43612551
It's not that it's hard to read or understand. It's that his phrasing and word selections are poor because his language skills were underdeveloped, compared to what we normally expect of authors.
>>43612567
Ooh, can I try?
"People at home waited with bated breath, glued to telegrams of Lake's spearhead to the northwest, into territories never ventured or even imagined by humanity. Although, we took care not to incite hysteria by mentioning our more alien finds."
>>43612557
They think you cry yourself to sleep over stuff some guy wrote 100 years ago
>>43612567
What you expect of authors. You.
>>43610428
Does that mean Gandhi should no longer be the face of passive resistance?
>>43612545
It makes sense to me. People were pretty excited that he was exploring unknown country, but they didn't know he also hoped to overturn accepted knowledge of biology and geology.
It implies the people would be more (or possibly less) excited if they knew the scope of his ambition was far greater than just mapping some remote place.
It implies he and his allies are a little worried that others might think he's a kook.
(If you ask me, there's too much meaning crammed into that sentence.)
>>43612588
I already do that because I'm not white and therefore eternally underprivileged.:^)So-called lefts are racist as fuck holy shit.
>>43612511
Even without context it's not hard to figure out: "A guy went into uncharted territory. The people we told about it speculated why. We didn't give them the whole story."
>>43612567
>Underdeveloped
I mean, yes, kind of but it's more a historical underdevelopment than a major fault of his own.
I would also disagree with your opinion on his word selection. It works perfectly fine, especially given his panchant for making virtually all of his writing intentionally archaic.
He used gaol and gewgaw in his works. No one else at the time did, because it was already old and outdated at the time. He was intentionally using out of fashion language and terms to give his works an air of antiquarianism.
>>43612591
True!
You are correct that I was putting Lovecraft on a pedestal of "authors whose writing is high enough quality that awards should be shaped into their likeness."
But, to be fair: that's also the topic of the thread.
>>43612577
>never... even imagined by humanity
Don't do that. The cringiest of cringe-inducing mistakes an author can possibly make is to tell readers what they think about something he wrote. It's a mortal sin Lovecraft committed regularly.
Yes goyim vilify your great works of literature and call it racist! It's the only way to prove you are a progressive, caring individual and not an evil Nazi!
to be honest I'd always thought he was a weird choice for that award. It might have been he had a distinctive head.
>>43612633
>tell readers what they think about something he wrote
Isn't anon's sentence actually telling the reader what the people at the time thought?
>>43612626
It's not that it's hard to figure out--It's that it's tortured. The language is as verbose and convoluted as the author is able to make it. And maybe >>43612629 is right that it was intentional, rather than the shitty pretension of amateurish hackery. Even if that's true, it's still a stupid, stupid, stupid mistake that delivered every thing he wrote as an abortion of all good taste.
What I find funny is that nowadays Lovecraft is more popular than ever. Guess not THAT many people are triggerd so easily
>>43612633
>Don't do that
What >>43612672 said, he's describing the viewpoint of the "People at home" waiting "with bated breath" for more telegrams.
>>43612595
Nope, She should be.
>>43612633
Yeah, felt awkward writing it. Now I know why.
Also it was pretty juvenile wording too, was kind of shaking my head afterwards.
>>43612688
>Good taste
Dropped.
I'm sure your taste is objectively superior to the likely literal millions of people that enjoy his works.
Bad taste is ICP or Viking romance novels. Not Lovecraft, not by a mile even with his flaws.
>>43612672
>>43612705
Hey, you guys are reading books, so I'm not gonna try to hate on what you enjoy, any more.
Honestly I didn't think "Lovecraft was a pretty shitty writer" was a contentious statement. Do your thing.
>seperating the art from the artist
>despite the fact that much of his work was founded on racism
The Shadow over Innsmouth is literally a metaphor for miscegenation.
He was just another pulp fiction writer and an especially bigoted one at that. Glad to see him removed, and hope to have a better writer come in his place.
>>43612693
We're not working hard enough then. Truly, Lovecraft should be stamped from the history books for being a racist. You wouldn't want to offend someone by hurting their feelings, would you?:^)
>>43612743
And a great story.
>>43612747
I vote for Michael Wood.
>>43612743
I mean, yeah partially, but it doesn't have to be interpreted that way.
It's about miscegenation with horrific fish people, not actual brown people. Unless you're of the school of thought that his work is intentionally left open to the imagination whether it's madness or reality. Which is an acceptable way of looking at it I suppose.
>>43612795
Given his attitudes towards different races it's safe to say it was a metaphor.
>not looking for allusion, symbolism and subtext
Maximum pleb detected.
>>43612743
That's a way to interpret the story, yes.
Should we also string up JK Rowling because the wizard/muggle thing is LITERALLY a metaphor for racial prejudice?
>>43612727
So when your point is countered, you hide behind condescension? Not cool, anon.
>>43612863
Difference is it's an anti-racist message. Lovecraft is comparing children born from interracial unions to literal monsters.
>>43612851
I mean, deeper than that it's about his fear of "other" as has been mentioned. It's not about racism, it's about Lovecraft being emotionally stunted and terrified of everything that he didn't understand. It's about the fear of what we don't know or understand.
He talked about how he didn't like Jews, but married a Jewish woman. It was "acceptable" in his mind because she didn't act particularly Jew-y. Which is of course to say, she didn't act like a /pol/ style caricature.
He was an emotionally stunted man who had a normal persons fear of what they didn't understand cranked to eleven. He was only so afraid of/hateful about black people because he probably only interacted with a bare handful in his entire life.
Also, as a counterpoint to the Shadow Over Innsmouth, we have Mountains of Madness, where he has his main character identify and sympathize with the Elder Things. Indicating he had an understanding of the commonality of the human condition.
>>43612864
No dude--you weren't even following the thread. The quote I'd responded to in my comment that you got butt-flustered about was written by an anon in this thread. Wasn't even a Lovecraft quote. I was calling truce 'cuz you'd obviously stopped paying attention.
>>43612889
That's the comparison, but think deeper. He's showing us what it would feel like for a racists to find out they are actually descended from the race they despise.
>>43612743
Yes, and?
>>43612901
This. People in this day and age expect everyone to be flawless and "good /non racist". Nobody is allowed to be just..human. I think there must be plenty of racist black and asian guys out there. I mean, look at how huge HPL and the Mythos is in Japan
>>43612901
This. Lovecraft was a 1920s NEET, his brand of racism came more from a lack of understanding that he overcame with age than the insidious hatred that the people who discredit his work based on his beliefs would like to imagine.
>>43612995
Dude, blacks and specially Asians are racist as fuck.
>>43612995
I'm married to a Filipino lady, and their family is chill as hell.
Until you mention literally. Any. Other. Asian. Nation.
>>43612995
>Nobody is allowed to be just..human.
It isn't that people aren't *allowed* to be human.
People just feel uncomfortable honoring people they disagree with on a primal level.
>>43613167
You mean 'people they disagree with on an incredibly superficial level?'
>>43613149
>Until you mention literally. Any. Other. Asian. Nation.
Mongolia. Russia. Laos. That piss them off?
>>43612906
I just reread, and it looks like you need to take your head out of your butt and read more carefully. Neither I nor the other guy thought it was a Lovecraft quote -- I specifically referred to it as "anon's sentence" not "Lovecraft's sentence."
And it's not "calling a truce" to make backhanded comments about "at least you read."
>>43613199
I know for a fact they've bitched about both Mongolia and Laos. Specifically dagger alphabet and 'too close to Vietnam'.
Nothing about Russia, to them Russia is a 'white' country. Which of course discounts, y'know, Siberia.
>>43613110
Also all varieties of brown people.
But again, it's mainly because they're all uneducated about other peoples cultures.
I live in Toronto, which is the most multicultural city in the world, and the only people I ever see being racist are the ones that live in insular communities. Indian immigrants who only associate with other Indians, black people that only associate with other black people, and yes, those few white people who live in the all white areas of the suburbs.
Everyone in the really mixed areas is basically chill with everyone else, because they have huge amounts more exposure to see other ethnicities as normal people.
>>43613226
>Russia is a 'white' country.
Excuse me a moment while I indulge my /pol/ side and cough into my hands to muffle my laughter.
>>43613285
What's your definition of white there? Only Germans and Nordics?
>>43610428
They just noticed that Shub-Niggeroth was a thing.
Hell when my game group played Eldrich horror, playing the black jazz player, I made a funny comment that he as a black man convinced a mob of white people in the deep south not to hang someone.
>>43613305
I mean, White is a new world race. It's Americans, Canadians, Australians, and other colonial nations where a number of different original ethnicities mixed together to form a relatively homogeneous blend. Or a heterogeneous mixture with too many components to bother accounting for them all.
Europeans don't see "White" the same way because they have identifiable ethnic groups.
Same reason why Black is a race in America but not in South Africa. Black people in America have no ethnicity besides their skin colour.
>>43613285
Hence the parentheses, tad/pol/.
>>43613323
Or hell the fact that one of the monsters in his writings was mixed race black/white demon child?
>>43613364
If you see the description of Yog-Sothoth and immediately think "black people" I think you might be the racist, buddy.
>>43610428
Didn't he stop being racist or at least be less racist before he died anyway?
>This is not about reading an author but about using that person’s image to represent an international award honouring the work of the imagination.”
What the hell is this idiot smoking? He managed to turn seafood and nonwhites into eldritch beings beyond time. That's a whole fucking lot of imagination. That's more imagination that writer made in that poorly constructed argument.
>>43613432
Yes but we live in a time where being racist at any point of your life in any context grants you an automatic ban from society.
>>43613557
Not unless your a minority hating on the majority.
>>43613582
What if you're a minority hating on a minority? Like how all the Vietnamese people I know hate Indian people.
>>43613582
Yes of course, being a hateful prick is a-ok as long as you're punching up.
>>43613557
Trump and most of the GOP seem to be doing quite well. The main rule is simply to not actually say the word nigger.
>>43613609
Still fine, its only racist when the majority oppresses a minority.
>>43613582
Everything evil in the world happened because of whites, who are literally half-breeds made by mating humans with demons.
If you disagree, that's just because you want to keep the black man down in the ghetto where you think he belongs, doped up and servile.
>>43613614
>You said the word
I've notified all of the college campuses in my area. I am tracing your IP and am creating a change.org petition to handle this. Enjoy being forced out of your job, racist scum.
>>43610428
And nothing of value was lost
>>43613614
Or wetback, beaner, greaseball, etc. Any of those would sink Trump fast. The GOP base would love it but he'd have lost any chance in the swing middle ground.
>>43613687
>implying that he cares about the middle and or moderates.
He'll never learn.
>>43610428
>"a terrible wordsmith"
Them's fightin' words, son.
>>43613687
Am I the only one that thinks Trump is just in this to make the other GOP candidates look better? He and Carson are basically this election's Rick Santorum.
>>43613762
Nah, you're not the first. Political commentators have been drawing that comparison for months.
Trump's and Carson's 15 minutes are just lasting a little longer than Santorum's, that's all. Eventually he will crash and burn and the GOP will pick a business conservative like they always do.
>>43613432
The article is a hilarious read
>im offended that i have a racist's statue in my house
>but i still keep him there to flaunt my award
>but im offended!
>but i still keep teaching about him in schools because his works were very influential
>but offended still!
>>43610428
So, for the news, "easily offended nigger with an axe to grind wins against common sense"?
>>43610428
The right decision for the wrong reason.
It doesn't help that the only alternative they're coming with is a black, female writer who didn't have a major impact on the genre. Speculative fiction awards seem to be the new scene of the social justice movement. Kind of makes me glad for dropping awards long ago.
>>43613614
>trump criticizes illegal aliens
>he literally hates all latinos
Why are you people so fucking stupid?
>>43613961
Honestly, what bothers me is that people still accept the reward. They want to have their cake, and eat it too. If the reward is offensive, refuse it under that reason, and no doubt people will listen to the grievance. But this bitching about getting an award just smacks of entitlement. Of course, that's the whole problem with these people. They are overentitled.
>>43610428
What does an award even mean to anyone these days?
>>43614598
Kinda a lot, if you're the person getting it.
>Hey, we're a few thousand people who think you did a good job
Jesus, dude. That feels GOOD.
>>43614436
While he has never said anything about Mexicans who come to America legal. The people who support him are freaking the fuck out about them.
Remember Trump got support from a neo-nazi site.Trump has said he doesn't want their support but still.
>>43614436
What do you mean YOU PEOPLE?
>>43614436
Take things at face value because they should be. What, are you a gender-studies major who want to explains the homophobic subtext borne of the patriarchy? Illegal aliens means "Mexicans," in the USA.
Doesn't have shit to do with immigration. It means Mexicans.
>>43614683
Wall erectors.
>>43614721
It's almost like Mexicans make up the overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants.
>>43614747
Nah. It's almost like the one is used as a codeword for the other.
Guess which nationality also makes up overwhelming majority of legal immigrants?
>>43610428
I will refrain from going full /pol/ack and say this is very much an affront and should be dealt with as such but will change very little either way.
>>43614793
>my eyes are closer to each other than my nostrils are apart
>lemme tell you about racial purity
Thanks, Queen Elizabeth.
>>43614775
>huge number of Mexicans pour into America illegally
>it's racist to associate illegal aliens with Mexicans
They kind of dug themselves into that hole.
>>43614793
Which again, makes these people look really stupid for complaining about this right now.
It's like they never read up on the guy.
>>43614884
It's not racist, anon. It's just dumb. The vast majority of all immigrants, to the USA, are Mexican. Yep--that's both legal and illegal aliens. What a coincidence that it's the largest population to share a border with the USA! It must imply something-something about determinism and skin color!
>>43614471
"thanks for the award"
"i'm going to flaunt it for a while"
>3 years later
"omg i can't believe the award you gave me was from a known racist change it now"
>>43614878
Well, i think he felt like he wasn't pure and has swarthy skin.
>>43610428
>>43610545
This is why trophies should remain abstract images or you know, cups, rather than busts.
>>43615375
I dunno, man. Most busts aren't that horrifying.
>>43610618
His prose was not good.
>>43615819
It had its prose and coons.
this just in: turn of the century white man is racist
>>43615874
>>43615819
The only thing you should need to do to back up that claim is to quote HP Lovecraft
The people who defend HP Lovecraft do not have well-enough developed language skills to understand what is wrong with the writing of HP Lovecraft.
You have two choices:
1) Host a seminar on writing with students who will actively seek to wiggle outa every fact you tell them, and you will be only-able to respond through text where inflection, inflexion and especially the time-in-which-it-takes-you-to-demonstrate-the-point are ignored
2) Don't bother
>>43615874
Carlos, I swear to god, I am going to pull this bus over and leave you in this fucking desert.
.
>>43615914
>The people who defend HP Lovecraft do not have well-enough developed language skills to understand what is wrong with the writing of HP Lovecraft.
That seems like a very wordy way of saying "people who don't agree with me are just too stupid to see how I'm right."
Have you bought a fedora yet? It's the perfect accompaniment to an unwarranted sense of intellectual superiority.
>>43615918
In the dessert you say?
>>43615978
>That seems like a very wordy way of saying "people who don't agree with me are just too stupid to see how I'm right."
You realize that, sometimes, when people get patronize? It's 'cuz they deserve to get patronized. Sometimes, when people act superior? It's 'cuz they're superior.
>>43615874
I spat my drink
then I stopped laughing and took another drink
then I remembered this and spat it out again
fuck you
>>43616010
And most of the time, it's 'cuz they're douchebags.
>>43615978
>>43616010
PS (that stands for "post-script"): in case you were wondering? Totally telling you that people who believe that HP Lovecraft was a decent author deserve to be patronized and that I am superior to them.
And my douche-baggery isn't related. Doesn't even matter if I am one.
>>43616058
>they deserve to be patronized and that I am superior to them.
Yeah, definitely get yourself fitted for a fedora, because you are THAT full of shit.
>>43610428
Who cares about whose likeness os on some obscure fucking niche award trophy? There are certainly many others who qualify to have their heads displayed in cupboards.
>>43616090
Maybe true. But I'm really not wrong on how bad HP Lovecraft's writing is.
I have a question about writing:
Most of Lovecraft's stories appeared in pulp magazines. I'm sure they had an editor to fix spelling mistakes and such, but I've always gotten the impression they published the majority as it was written.
Meanwhile authors like Tolkien were publishing hardback novels, a lot was changed (and later changed further or reverted) to the point where there are still arguments what was a mistake and what was intentional.
Ignoring the literary abilities of these two authors, how much of classic fantasy writing relied on editing? I can see a magazine not really giving a shit, but a hardback publisher trying their hardest to polish something into a good book.
>>43616108
He was fuck awful at dialogue.
>>43616140
Assuming that an author is a decent writer: an editor is invaluable.
It is damn-near impossible for you to recognize the leaps of logic that you make on a regular basis. Not because it's hard to do, but because fuck, man: it's a book. We aren't all Proust with forty years of nothing to do but scrutinize every sentence. You could re-write it forty-five times, or an editor could say "the fuck does that mean?" And you still wouldn't pick up the simple ticks of dialect that you never noticed weren't universal and rendered what you said meaningless.
But the value is tied to the degree to-which an author trusts an editor. Ever noticed how many authors' editors are their spouses? It's not coincidence.
Tolkein lived close-to the beginning of the age of professional editors. Lovecraft was before it. Not that there weren't editors, but it wasn't to Lovecraft what it was to Tolkein.
Also, Tolkein took forty years to write a book. I mean, that's different. It's not comparable.
Also: harback novels vs pulp from decades before them? It doesn't mean what you think it does. Hardback was about production, when Tolkein's novel (Lord of the Rings, by the way, is a single novel) got printed.
>>43616278
>(Lord of the Rings, by the way, is a single novel)
>a trilogy of 3 books
>each distinguished, other than by chapters, by books 1 and 2
How do you figure? And where does The Hobbit figure into it if that's the case?
I don't think you're wrong necessarily speaking, but I want to hear your reasoning.
>>43616345
Lord of the Rings was written as a single novel. It was divided into chapters and books by a publisher. The Sylmarillion was part of it.
>>43616345
>>43616393
Oh, and: The hobbit was written as a seperate book. Not as a novel, though. Or Lord of the Rings wasn't written as a novel--take your pick. These are 70s concepts that we're relying on, when we talk about them.
>>43610704
>Lovecraft wasn't very good at describing things and tended to fall back on
>toss around a bucket of five dollar words boiling down to "looked like raw fish but giant".
You have no clue what writing a description even means, do you? To you he may have used too many "fancy" and "flowery" words like a goddamned smart mouthed faggot, but his descriptions were actually very good.
He described things like someone who appreciates a large vocabulary, not a gap toothed hill billy who never passed the 2nd grade because he knocked up his sister Greta, you yokel.
>>43616393
>the sylmarillion was part of it
The Sylmarillion was put together by Christopher Tolken from the old man's notes after he died. It was never published during JR Tolken's life
>>43616454
>From inner angles of starfish arrangement project two-foot reddish tubes tapering from three inches diameter at base to one at tip. Orifices at tips. All these parts infinitely tough and leathery, but extremely flexible. Four-foot arms with paddles undoubtedly used for locomotion of some sort, marine or otherwise. When moved, display suggestions of exaggerated muscularity. As found, all these projections tightly folded over pseudoneck and end of torso, corresponding to projections at other end.
Stop. I might pee myself.
>>43616454
>He described things like someone who appreciates a large vocabulary, not a gap toothed hill billy who never passed the 2nd grade because he knocked up his sister Greta, you yokel.
I have no dog in this fight, but
>inb4 somebody quotes Hemingway re: Faulkner
>>43616414
>>43616393
You're hurting my head, here.
I understand that publisher meddling played a part in the publishing of the Lord of the Rings, especially re: the naming of The Return of the King (I think Tolkien wanted "The War of the Ring" or something else for the title, because "Return..." gave away too much plot, but I might be misremembering), but was it really to that extent dictated by the publishing house? I find that kind of surprising.
>Oh, and: The hobbit was written as a seperate book
...huh?
>These are 70s concepts that we're relying on, when we talk about them.
As far as I understand it, "novel" is actually a really, really old concept, so if you could be a little more clear what concepts exactly you're referring to I'd appreciate it.
>The Sylmarillion was part of it.
That must have been very early in creation, I would think. And where did you get that spelling for it?
>>43610428
>/avowed-racist-
Aaaand I immediately don't care about whatever the article writer has to say next.
>>43616467
Correct. I am not, in any way, disagreeing with you. Nothing I said should be read as implying otherwise, so please do not misinterpret it as a claim otherwise. Tolkein considered the silmarillion to be part of his novel: The Lord of the Rings. Please do not mis-interpret that into thinking that I am claiming that, when the various books of The Lord of the Rings were published, the silmarillion was therefore a complete and independent work.
>>43616494
>As far as I understand it, "novel" is actually a really, really old concept,
It is not. The earliest you can reasonably pin it to is the 17th century.
But the modern novel, where there's adventures and magic and sci-fi and shit? That's from the late 50s, if you stretch-the-fuck out of what we're talking about.
>>43616278
Plus Tolkein's editor was retarded and kept trying to edit things that he had done on purpose. That couldn't have helped the 40 year process
>>43616531
Just in case it's still confusing: go look up the publication history of Charles Dickens. Aside from being one of the greatest novelist ever? He also never wrote a novel. You're gonna have to learn a little about publishing to understand why, so I recommend researching it, if you're interested.
>>43613198
>racism
>superficial
>>43616742
I'm super confused. Are you claiming that racial categories aren't related to skin tone, or that we can't reasonably assume that the surface of a human body is its skin?
>>43616773
Race is superficial appearance. Racism is deep-seated nastiness.
But Lovecraft outgrew his early racist shit.
>>43616837
>Race is superficial appearance.
Not really. You can determine someone's ethnicity by his skeleton alone, we really aren't all the same under our skin.
>>43616837
>Race is superficial appearance. Racism is deep-seated nastiness.
As fun as that trip down meaningless-buzzword-lane sounds? Gonna have to pass it by, anon.
>waaaaaa people don't share my modern egalitarian consensus opinion waaaa
>>43616860
Are you autistic or something? Skeletal differences between people can be "superficial" as well, provided you're not taking the term as literally as humanly possible.
The point is that race doesn't involve any meaningful social differences, the deeper differences implied by "superficial appearance".
>>43616531
>The Hobbit was written as a separate book
>Huh?
People honestly don't know this?
Basically, the Hobbit was written as a bedtime story for his son Christopher. That's why it's much tighter and shorter, because it was written to be a story. This was relatively early in the development cycle of the Middle Earth lore. Lord of the Rings came a little later and was written as more of a walking tour of Middle Earth, which is why it's much more bloated and meandering.
It's also why the the Hobbit movies being a trilogy was especially offensive while Lord of the Rings was just a little butt-numbing in how long it was. There was reason for Lord of the Rings (the movie) to be long. There was no reason for the Hobbit to be even a duology.
ITT: People on the wrong side of history
>>43616972
Since when social differences are "deeper" than biological ones?
>>43617015
Depends on which gets furthest below sea level, I suppose. As long as we wanna discuss this stuff in meaningless abstracts that mostly point out our lack of insight into the topic.
>>43616972
tribalism based on ethnicity (and in situations extended to race) seems to be universal as an evolutionary strategy, to deny evolution only when it comes to humans is reddit tier
>>43617069
To believe in social darwinism seems to be "debunked by all science ever" tier.
>>43617015
Since those ones are important to people. Nobody gives much of a shit about the shape of your skeleton unless they're a weirdo or a scientist. (Who's probably a weirdo, too, but hey)
>>43617069
To imply that what is natural is therefore also moral is a non sequitur, bro.
>>43617077
>socially ostracized and ousted by people whose self interest lies in denouncing anti-establishment ideas after WW2
ftfy desu senpai
>>43610974
my fiancée had a cat named nigger (in the early 90s), though her mom named it and they didn't speak english at the time.
>>43617102
didnt reference morality
>>43610428
>I honestly have no idea how to feel about this.
SJWs ruin yet another thing out of spite and jealousy.
also IQ, physical build that determines superiority in the various fields in which ethnicities adapted to in their environments over thousands of years are confirmed
>>43612063
Don't you understand anon? The actions of people in the past have no context, they must all be viewed in a meaningless judgement vacuum.
Anyway, they probably just wanted to drum up a little attention. There's only a few literary awards I actually care about when I pick up a book and see them on the cover, I'm not sure I've even heard of this one, and everyone knows all publicity is good publicity when the only people you risk pissing off have to defend an "avowed racist".
>>43616010
So you're confirming that you have no actual argument then.
Back to reddit with you, supreme gentlemen.
>>43617200
>Don't you understand anon? The actions of people in the past have no context, they must all be viewed in a meaningless judgement vacuum.
You know what confuses me?
>We should not judge cultures
>We should judge people from 100 years ago
It's like people aren't making the connection that 100 years ago had a completely different culture than now, so you're still technically judging a culture.
>>43617139
>they didn't speak english at the time
That's different.
>>43617222
You're only allowed to judge white people.
>>43617222
It's ok to judge white people anon.
>>43617245
Conviction rates say otherwise!
>tfw you will live long enough to see today's social justice activists become the bitter old guard muttering about how the country's gone to shit
It'll be like the hippies becoming the hyper-corporate backbone of the 1980s, only funnier.
>>43617236
they were still in the US (they spoke english, just halting-- they were refugeed in after forced repatriation following the laotian secret war), so when kids asked what her cat's name was the correct answer was "nigger"
>>43610428
Isn't Older that hack that wrote a cringey teen fiction where he shoves the fact she's a minority down the reader's throat every second? Why should I give a shit what he has to say?
So who's the next face for the award? Tolkien? Pratchett?
>>43610691
>http://news.nationalpost.com/arts/avowed-racist-h-p-lovecraft-no-longer-representing-world-fantasy-award
Eh people throughout history have treated social justice warriors and other radical reformers the same way, using their views to justify all of their accomplishments. And, no matter how "reddit" it may seem, I can honestly say SJW's are contributing more to a better world than people who were merely drones of their contemporary time's un-modern viewpoints.
People who were ahead of their times took so much shit in history, I don't mind contemporary folks taking it out on the people who were conformists in their native time periods. Call it karma.
>>43617269
>It'll be like the hippies becoming the hyper-corporate backbone of the 1980s
That's an urban legend, dude. Popularized via TV, it didn't happen in the real world, outside of a very few cases.
But a lot of Americans love the idea that anyone who believes in anything will eventually give up and sell out; I guess it makes them feel better about their apathy.
Also SJWs aren't numerous enough to be the backbone of anything.
>>43617222
There really are just some people with more activism than common sense. They aren't being malicious, they are just stupid. They think that "western society" exists in some kind of constant linear progression towards a predestined glorious utopia (just like marx did, coincidentally, just that the vision is different), and that it is therefore always ok to criticise things in the past or present for not being "correct".
But for some reason this does not apply to other cultures. People like this are actually phenomenally racist, they just don't realise it.
>>43617351
So... What happened to all those hippies?
>>43617341
Tolkien is out of the question. Since tumblr believes that orcs=blacks he is even more racist than Lovecraft. And Pratchett is barely cold, he needs to wait a moment. But how about Anne McCaffrey? She was a woman and had an obsession with gay men. She would fit right in with the times.
>>43617222
>Liberals
>Logically consistent
>>43617386
Some died of overdose, some ended in psychiatric wards. Some becomeyour dad.
>>43617351
>Also SJWs aren't numerous enough to be the backbone of anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ28AXprSHM
How long's it been since you've been to a college campus, Anon?
>>43617386
Most just went back home and stopped fooling around. Die-hard hippies were actually really few, most of the flower-children just wanted to get some poon, get high and show that they are adults now and you don't get it mom!
>>43617442
It's nothing new. University campuses are a breeding ground for this sort of thing since forever. Just look at '60 student demonstrations and general cult Mao was surrounded with on campuses. But then they get older and either conformed to the real world or ended on the fringe yelling about reptilians, melanin theory and other nonsense.
>>43617386
Most of 'em kept on living their lives. Settled down, got blue collar jobs (which most of 'em had already), raised kids.
The idea that they sold out their values of individualism and free expression to become corporate drones was kind of an invention of the 80s. And kind of a weird one, in retrospect, but at the time I remember it being used on TV shows all the time.
>>43610618
I'm here to provide a service. Take three works of short prose science fiction/fantasy: Edgar Allen Poe's The Masque of the Red Death, H.P. Lovecraft's The Dunwich Horror, and "The Eye of Argon" by Jim Theiss.
Compare the first two paragraphs of each story to each other, paying close attention to the use of language, the pacing, the storytelling.
Which two seem most similar to each other? Poe's Masque and Lovecraft's Horror? Theiss' Eye and Poe's Masque?
Lovecraft's Horror and Theiss' Eye? We have a winner!
Lovecraft is the poor man's Poe. He sucked. He sucked hardcore. He tried to emulate the prose style of writers fifty years before his time, and fumbled every archaic turn of phrase. He had no sense of character. His storylines were paper-thin. He had no sense for emotion, or for human relationships.
You could argue that Lovecraft was notable because of his originality, except anything he did with "unknowable horror" was done already, and better, by writers like Lord Dunsany. To quote him himself: "There are my 'Poe' pieces and my 'Dunsany' pieces—but alas—where are my Lovecraft pieces?"
Lovecraft sucked, for reasons entirely foreign to his racism.
>>43617470
>>43617501
The vast majority of people involved in these movements are young and stupid, if history has a habit of repeating itself we're going to get some *crazy* shit going on in the next 10 years by the "true believers", followed by everyone mellowing out to settle down and have 2.5 children with the guy they put off until their 30s.
The weird thing is, the big difference between now and the 60s-80s is that *everything* is recorded. If you make a porno or crazy SocJus video, everyone's going to see it.
>>43617548
So why Lovecraft continues to be popular when Lord Dunsany is largely forgotten?
>>43617422
>he is even more racist than Lovecraft
Orcs are nazis and he was a catholic, ¿how can he be more racist?
>>43617650
Also not even the hardrim and orcs are completely evil.
>>43617638
>So why Lovecraft continues to be popular when Lord Dunsany is largely forgotten?
Hookworms are popular in certain circles, and for the same reason.
>>43617638
Because he is wrong, and he will probably say something along the lines of "popularity =/= quality"
Which is normally true, but for some reason, older books that are reprinted often tend to actually be really good. Otherwise it wouldn't get printed over and over again for a hundred years. A prime example is Dumas. He wrote a few shitty ones that where lost to time or obscurity, but everyone knows the Three Musketeers.
>>43610428
Welp, I guess we'd better take all the old presidents off our money, because they were almost all racist and owned slaves
>>43612747
He was a writer who shaped an entire face of the horror genre by himself. Pulp? Sure. But pulp never actually meant bad, just like romance novels never meant bad. Unless used by cunts like you who think labelling something means you understand it.
>>43611653
This. Lovecraft was a sheltered child from a very conservative family who had fallen on hard times and liked to blame their problems on other races.
He eventually grew out of it.
>>43612551
I'd agree with either of those, Colour Out of Space is one of his best ones too.
The Dunwich Horror is my personal favorite though. Since it's one of the few stories written by Lovecraft where the protagonists say "Fuck this shit" and take out the monster.
>>43615375
Fightin' words, anon.
>>43618632
Or maybe he actually had to deal with niggers on a routine basis and that's exactly what made him racist. :^)
>>43618800
>young Lovecraft
>going out of his house, ever
Lovecraft was a weirdo shut-in, anon.
>>43617638
Lovecraft had some very dedicated friends who made sure that his writing was kept in print.
Granted the main one responsible was also a slimy son of a bitch who claimed Lovecraft had bequeathed him the rights to his work (which were actually willed to his Aunt) and spent the next few decades adding his own shit to Lovecraft's writing while suing anybody else who wanted to use it (like TSR).
>>43618795
But that's not a specific person.
>>43610545
>can't see what it represents
>>43619134
but it looks just like my uncle oswald...?
>>43619531
Bad genetics?
>>43610704
>And there's really no dodging the fact that Lovecraft was racist even for his day.
You literally have no concept on how the late late 1800s were.
Why do these clowns insist on trying to erase the horrors of the past? Pretty much every great writer had some kind of flaw, that doesn't mean their work isn't great. Lovecraft may not have held niggers in high regards, but to my knowledge he didn't keep them locked in his basement or activately went out of his way to make life more miserable for them. A strong opinion, sure, but compared to some of the more abhorrent things niggers have experienced, Lovecrafts writings are incredibly mild, almost laughable
Gee.... I wonder why he's trying so hard to get into the news for attempting to replace H. P. with a black woman. It couldn't have anything to do with the book he was writing, could it?
Also
>he was also an avowed racist
Yeah, he doesn't know what avowed means, cuz he didn't. Or he's lying.
>and a terrible wordsmith
so... neither of these are true/facts
>>43620093
Thing is, no official statement has been given on "why" - the article is sensationalist clickbait that simply speculates "it's because he was a racist".
It could equally be that the bust looks hideous >>43610545
Alternately, it could be because HP Lovecraft seems like a very poor representative for the World Fantasy Award. Cosmic horror's like a tiny subgenre for the wide breadth of fantasy and Lovecraft is hardly representative.
>>43620105
>make fantasy more realistic
>>43620106
Lovecraft is pretty much the father of horror in the 20th and 21st century, there are few who have been as influental as he. While it is true that the genre is less popular than most other genresbecause horror is hard to write wellhe's still a frontfigure of literature. He's ingrained in pop culture and his work continues to inspire to this day, ignoring what he did in favor of petiness is downright insulting
