The high lords of terra proclaim that the adeptus mechanicus must invent new technologies to replace those lost to the imperium.
What is their response?
>>43583335
Binary.
>>43583335
1. Shit's expensive
2. Don't tell me how to do my job, meat.
They do invent new technology
You just have to be an arch magos and be extra careful with each step so your tech doesn't burst into demons
>>43583335
Fuck you bitch, we don't have to listen to you.
So shut the fuck up, and take what we give you.
>>43583335
Careful internal consultation.
Then bitter internal disputes between progressives and conservatives.
Then a spate of assassinations and purges, and sporadic armed conflicts on Forge Worlds.
Eventually one side wins out and gives a Yes or No answer depending on their dogma. Chances are the conservatives would win and technological innovation would be absolutely prohibited for a few millenia.
>>43583367
No no no, they "find" technology that was previously "lost".
>>43583486
Not entirely.
The progression of Astartes Power Armour is the most prominent example.
>>43583335
They go on strike, the Imperial war machine grinds to a halt, and hundreds of systems are lost because of it.
The Mechanicus already does innovate, its simply done by Magus with extreme care. You see, a big problem with the Mechanicus is that they are not scientists. They're not, they are very religious engineers. They do not know how their equipment works for the most part, only how to make it work. The scientific theories behind teleportation and space flight have been lost and diminished throughout the ages, to the point where genuine scientific knowledge is rare and closely guarded.
The Mechanicus doesn't have the sheer knowledge base to innovate, so they are limited to reverse engineering is incremental improvements based on limited understanding of the design. Which is EXTREMELY dangerous when working with these kinds of technologies. Pressing buttons at random to see what does what works fine on a 1995 computer. Not so much a 410th century spaceship.
Really the only way to get fast results is to take a WIZARDS approach to the whole ordeal, fuck the consequences, THIS IS CAVE JOHNSON HERE tier bullshit, but that shit will land you in the Hereteks.
>>43583354
kek
>>43583479
this guy has it right, with the possibility of forge worlds disregarding what the winner said and does it any way, masquerading it as >>43583486, while fighting cyber espionage and war with the conservative in fear of retribution in the form of sanctions of material and resupply, and fleets above their worlds
also post AdMech
>>43583646
the higher ups do understand how things work, just not alot of it. it would best be described has having the formula right in front of you, and knowing what that specific formula does for a specific thing in one problem and how it applies to all problems exactly like that, but not understanding how that formula interacts with another. they know that it all works together, but they don't understand how it all works together, only that it does.
>>43583700
More or less. They have large chunks of isolated information, but they have no unified theories.
>>43583806
So, They are bunch of techno barbarisms
Why do Forge World guard their secrets so much? I mean I'm pretty sure other Forge Worlds could start pumping Ryza-tier plasma weapons if only Ryza released the blueprints and shit.
Also, I don't remember any instance of Mechanicus saying they couldn't simply capture xenos weapons and reverse engineer the shit out of them.
>>43585536
Because having a monopoly is good for business. The Fabricator General of Ryza wouldn't be nearly as influential if people could get Ryza tier plasma anywhere
>>43583335
Seeing as the Fabricator-General is one the High Lords, I doubt it would pass without his will.
So another schism within the Adeptus Mechanicus.
Massive civil war rocks the Mechanicum and those close to them, such as the Iron Hands, Knight Houses, and Forge World-dominated planetary systems.
>>43583335
Call the lathe worlds and ask for a toy they kept to themselves for a hundred years. Seriously, lathe system is all about research, experimental devices and special-snowflake-powered-integrated-plasma-guns that never overheat and have infinite ammo because logic.
>>43585536
Xenos weapons? Oh, you naive heretek, it's servitor time for you.
>>43585476
Technobarbarian cargo cultists with heavy dozes of religious zeal.
I don't think Terra is in the position to DEMAND anything from the AM when everything that's keeping the Imperium together is basically on loan.
The AM is not part of the Imperium but an allied empire/realm/whatnot in its own right just like the Space Marine homeworlds.
>>43583335
They meet in a conclave and after the usual prayers to the Omnissiah for guidence they black out communications between the high lords and the rest of the Imperium, purge them and arrange for replacements. They run the communications network the High Lords rely on so what can realistically be done to stop them?
>>43587482
The admech is easily the most important "organ" of the whole Imperium. Without it, Imperium would crumble, whereas factions like Space Marines, or even the Ecclesiarchy could be removed, and the Imperium could probably still stand in some way or form.
>>43587538
I think you didn't quite get my point, friend.
>>43583335
>high lords
>ordering the Ad Mech to do anything
>the Fabricator General allowing the motion to even attempt to pass
"By the dictates of the Treaty of Mars, the Cult Mechanicus and the Clergy of Mars, which you condescend to call the Adeptus Mechanicus, is a formal ally of the Imperium of Man, and not its subject.
"Your desire for new technology has been noted, cataloged, and will be reviewed.
"That is all."
>>43587526
They don't though. You need an astropathic choir for inter-system communications, so the admech is reliant on the adeptus astra telepathica
>>43587739
And the Navis Nobilite control the vast majority of the ability to navigate warp travel between systems.
The AdMech is really fucking powerful, and could take two or three other factions of the Imperium on their own in a fight, but they couldn't survive on their own without some major heresy.
>>43585536
>reverse engineer xenos tech.
Honestly, I'm not sure some places don't.
The AdMech is so secretive and complex that there could be whole swathes of people that would be declared heretek if they didn't have a local Magos covering for them, or if they ever sent their research to the top.
>>43587779
Welcome to 40k, basically.
I have a sense that but the most orthodox priests would bend over backwards if they could get their hands on a piece of necron tech.
The AdMech also operates their own Inquisition variant to root out Tech Heresy, which indicates that there's certainly a problem. You can't have an organization full of tech lichs obsessed with knowledge, and then expect them to follow the strictures about "but only this knowledge!"
Had an Explorator on a Rogue Trader game who was a False Man bred by a bored Magos Biologis, who was shunted off onto the RT's crew to avoid repercussions during the once-a-century inspection.
>>43585536
Problem with reverse engineering xeno tech is that that tech does not necessarily play nice with your tech. Which can be a very bad thing when you don't know exactly how your tech works either. And in the case of weapons may be trapped such to make it very difficult to reverse engineer.
Besides that Ordo Xenos is technically in charge of anything like that, and they will wage war on you for it.
Look at all this admech wankery. It's time from some proper fluff to be presented.
>>Ultimately, though, the Cult’s citadels of knowledge are built upon a foundation of lies. The ability to truly innovate has long been lost, replaced with a reverence for the times when Humanity was the architect of its own destiny. No longer the master of its creations, the Cult Mechanicus is enslaved to the past. It maintains the glories of yesteryear with rite, dogma and edict instead of discernment and comprehension. Even the theoretically simple process of activating a weapon is preceded by the application of ritual oils, the burning of sacred resins and the chanting of long and complex hymns. And yet so long as the process works – or rather, so long as the Cult’s armies can obliterate those who displease them – the Tech-Priests are content to tread the slippery path toward entropy and ignorance.
-The Admech codex
Tl;dr The Admech does not truly innovation. Their quest of knowledge is a sham built on a foundation of lies. They are not the masters of technology, they are its slaves.
>>43583367
"The explode into daemons" bit was never stated in any codex or rulebook. They don't truly innovate because innovation to them is close to heresy.
> you will never make the void dragon ahegao.
>>43583646
So they're no better than orks on this aspect.
>>43587868
Yeah. Unless you have the Tau's magical ability to ignore the difficulties inherent in reverse engineering technologies you have no understanding of, reverse engineering in general is actually quite difficult.
>>43587905
The Imperium seems to be the only faction that gets weaker and dumber with every edition.
>>43588127
The Tau could not reverse engineer warp engines, though.
>>43588134
Or captured Eldar wraith constructs.
>>43587905
>Tl;dr The Admech does not truly innovation.
I find this assertion to be highly relative. Indeed, the AdMech hardly has the ability to invent anything "new" that would exceed the heights Mankind once reached, but working toward restorting their knowledge base is the entire point of the Quest for Knowledge. The idea that they don't even care about knowing how shit works is idiotic. Why do Explorator fleets even exist, then?
>>43588134
By the RPG Tau rules, a Fire Warrior is a savvy enough engineer to upgrade any archeotech device to a higher quality in a couple of weeks.
>>43588145
>. Why do Explorator fleets even exist, then?
Collecting STCs and fighting the enemies of the Admech?
All this precious knowledge they "collected" is meaningless since they cannot proper understand and their whole foundation on how it works is built on lies. Furthermore, it says that they lost the ability to truly innovate. It doesn't say they don't innovate because they know the STC stuff is better. They straight up forgot how the innovation process works mostly because it's nigh-heretical to them.
>>43583486
There are entire planets designated as testing grounds for 'experimental weapons'. The only reference I know of it was from the previous Rulebook concerning the assembly of an Ork Waaagh! where their capture of the planet has mixed results.
Some of that may be them fiddling with lost tech too see how it works, but it certainly implies there is a degree of innovation in their fiddling.
>>43588234
>but it certainly implies there is a degree of innovation in their fiddling.
But it's not true innovation.
>>43588388
>true innovation
Look, man, I don't know what the fuck that even means, but if they're making new guns, they're making new guns.
>>43588463
You
see
>>43587905
Ask GW's design studio team for the meaning. As the fluff stands right now, the Admech have lost the ability to truly innovation.
>>43588472
truly innovate*
>>43588472
And yet the Magi still fiddle, the Biologis still invents and adapts, and the upper echelons continue to slowly, deliberately, and sometimes disastrously experiment with what they have.
>>43588524
Again, no matter what you think, It's not true innovation..
So speaks GW.
>>43588549
Are you going to contribute anything else, or just repeat yourself ad infitinum?
>>43588568
I don't have to. I just refuted you with one sentence. Recent GW material says that they don't truly innovate, and yet you continue to argue because it hurts your feels apparently.
>>43587905
>Look at all this admech wankery. It's time from some proper fluff to be presented.
It's not wankery.
>>43583335
Wake up another tomb world to try and steal a gauss toaster.
>>43588568
He will. It's too early in the morning for this.
>>43588611
It is. Look at this thread. The fluff outright says that the cannot truly innovate and yet claim they can.
It's pure fanwankry.
>>43588647
Fanwankery is letting an Eldarfanboy who thinks the Eldar need more cheese write their crunch for next edition. Wait that's probably not a good example.
>>43588647
>>43588598
>look at all these explicit examples from the canon where the AdMech did a thing
>nuh uh, I'm going to keep hiding behind this quote
Embracing the GrimDerp with both arms outstretched, are we?
>>43588695
He is. I will say that I see no reason that an Arch Magos couldn't accidentally innovate.
>>43588701
I mean, it usually ends poorly, but then there's places like the Lathe worlds where everything is just better because.
It's often heresy, but, you know, sometimes someone does something.
>>43588721
>Arch Magos accidentally reinvents the boom box
Now what?
>>43588695
In the case of a contradiction, GW policy's is create most logical, consistent, and most fitting path for the canon. Tldr "New trumps old sluff".
So unless you grab some new quote that refutes what's in the recent codex, then you are shit out of luck.
>>43588739
>GW policy's is create most logical, consistent, and most fitting path for the canon.
Anon, stop. My sides hurt and you know that to be not true.
>>43588736
It suddenly becomes "fashionable" for techpriests to wear a boom box on their shoulder then use them for speech.
>>43588754
Do they start rapping?
>>43588739
That entire diatribe hinges on the phrase "truly innovate" though, which is empty of meaning. Without defining "fake innovation" or "quasi-innovation" we can't go through the history books and strike out all of the dozens upon dozens of instances where the AdMech weren't strikingly incompetent in their handling of technology.
If nothing else, though, they still blow up a moon with Squat warp cores.
also
>GW's policy is create most logical, consistent, and
Sir, please, I cannot laugh any harder.
>>43588736
SICK OMNISSIAN BEATS
>>43588748
Unfortunately for you.
It is (picture related).
>>43588754
>>43588763
My sides. Now we need art of this new fashion trend.
>>43588769
forgot my picture.
>>43588769
No picture.
>>43588778
Oh, it's that nonsense. Should have guessed.
>>43588763
40K is not history. It's fictional setting. GW can do whatever they want. Retcons and outdated fluff is a thing.
>>43588105
Ork tech works because the orks want it to.
Human tech works because it has always worked that way.
>>43588795
>fictional settings don't have history
>>43588783
It's not nonsense because you don't agree with it. Again you are falling back to you feels.
>>43587482
I've always kind of wondered how it took us this long to get an AdMech army. I mean, they're not just more important than any other human faction, they're almost more important than the whole Imperium they 'serve'.
Who builds starships? Admech.
Who maintains the golden throne? Admech.
Who arms the Imperial Guard? Admech.
Who powers Hive cities? Admech.
It seems like Terra needs Mars a whole lot more than Mars needs Terra, which puts the rest of the lore in a strange sort of light.
>>43588803
That isn't what he said and you know it.
>>43588770
If they vox-synthesize out of the boombox, then they have a perfectly usable space where their mouth is/used-to-be that can be put to use.
Do we just fill it with tubes and filters like normal?
>>43588826
>they have a perfectly usable space where their mouth is/used-to-be that can be put to use.
>that can be put to use.
Oh baby I like where this is headed
>>43587905
>>43588795
It's well-established that 40k doesn't have a hard canon. Huge amounts of the fluff, including codexes, are considered in-universe writings and are thus open to interpretation.
>>43588826
>>43588835
We're headed somewhere nice. Let's keep going.
>>43588816
Mars needs the Atronomica to communicate, the Nobilite to navigate, the raw bulk Imperial Guard to shield them from major threats, and all the rest to keep humanity's teeming masses in line while they work.
Had the war between Emps and Mars gone differently, it might have been the Machine Cult forming a galactic empire, but they were subsumed, and simply do not have the infrastructure to keep up more than individual worlds or small systems on their own. They cannot fight all the Imperium on their own, though it'd be a helluva war if the entire cult tried to break the alliance.
>>43588841
It is not.
See (>>43588778|) 40K has a canon. The while nonsense of the fluff being legends, lies, and whatever is not for the player. It's for the writers to retcon the setting and change it whenever they desire.
>arguing with Carnac
>>43588826
>>43588835
I say they should put a cannon of some sort in there, or a melta.
>>43588859
>anyone who disagree with you is carnac
>can't come up with arugments so push the carnac button
Orks are blue and have pouches where they raise their young because fuck the canon.
>>43588865
So they canSpit hot rhymes
while theycook fresh hymns?
>>43583335
The last thing that the Imperium needs is a civil war. The outcome would leave it so weak and drained that even the Eldar could fuck Terra up if they wanted to.
The absolute worst case scenario is no one knowing how to maintain the Golden Throne surviving or worse, it get's sabotaged. It would, shock of all horrors, advance the plot
>>43588869
Let's see, his formatting, hate for nice things, and >>43588778
Ring a ding ding ding, it's him.
>>43588884
>advance the plot
Mortal Terror
>>43588869
Oh, no, not at all. Carnac, however, is Carnac.
He absolutely loves this >>43587905 paragraph and always makes sure to post it whenever the topic comes up; plus all the various other little things which give away that it's him.
>>43588874
>>43588865
>>43588844
>>43588835
I'm imagining a Magos with one of those crane arms presenting the boombox proudly above his head, cables dangling, mouth streaming glowing smoke, with an integrated DJ deck visible on/in his chest being manipulated by small mechadendrites.
>>43588884
>>43588893
We don't need it. Settings don't have to progress, they should be treated like a canvas and explored. Paint happy little bolters.
>>43588931
We need the dwarfriends ASAP.
>>43583335
What's the budged?
>>43588835
Slaanesh go and pls stay go
>>43588884
Except they are finding problems in the throne which the AdMech can't fix. But of course the plot stops there as we know. Tbh I prefer it this way (Emperor knows another End Times would go badly) since the writers and us the fans can explore what happens before 999 M41.
>Hip Hop Enginseers
>>43588890
>>43588930
But he is right doe.
>>43588936
We kinda need it or else people will get bored and move on to living settings like Warcraft and whatever.
>>43589066
Every player is the author of their own work.
To pretend that the writers and the players must operate off of different rules and interpretations is folly. We all are subject to the context of the past, and while GW owns the rights and may bumble through whatever changes and declarations they arbitrate, they do not sit at our tables.
See truth, here, now: The canon is not their written law, but what those assembled agree it to be.
For the warp is a fickle realm, and reality shifts with its tide. Have you the wisdom to judge fact from fiction?
>>43589119
All fine and dandy, anon. But nobody cares about your headcanon. It belongs only to yourself. When we discuss ze lore, we discuss GW's lore. If you want to circlejerk about your fanfiction, then there are threads for it on /tg/ like the Hektor Hersey and whatever.
GW is the god of that universe. They get to decide what's real and what's not real in it. And you, my friend, have no say at all in the process.
>>43587752
Navigators belong to the cogbros.
>>43583335
FUCKING FLESHIES GET OUT.
GET OUT OF MY FUCKING FORGE WORLD FLESHIES
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE010101010101010101010
>>43589189
No, but we can still appeal to 4e, or 2e, or the Rogue Trader book for what once was, and what may be again. GW's fallibility is infamous, to say the least, and many of their decisions suspect.
>>43589190
Patently untrue as a generalization. They are an independent organization of vast power and influence, and serve the AdMech as serve the Imperium out of gain and duty, and not any "belonging."
>>43588549
Gw retcons around every new codex and edition. Whatever they say lore wise isn't worth much.
>>43588568
He never does.
>>43588739
Aren't the codeces just imperial propaganda filled with common or general knowledge instead of factbased details?
>>43589270
Like GL said, it's to make the setting more logical and consistent.
>>43589243
I wouldn't put too much hope in that, authors and developers report that GW vis developing an iron grip on their IP/lore.
>>43589283
You
see
>>43588853
>>43589243
Not exactly the emperor decreed they would belong there. At least that's what visions of heresy writes.
>>43589294
Then they should not retcon tau all the time so they can magically have nee stuff all the time.
>>43588946
Omnissiah delivers.
>>43589323
The have been stated to be developing new stuff in all their lore all the time. It's not a retcon. It's more of a deliverance of what was promised.
>>43589294
Constant retcons are not something that improves consistency,at best that is misusing the word. Consistency would be keeping things the same, changing them to match is about congruence.
Yes, we do have examples of the admech creating new things (though it's recombining pre-existing elements more often than not). But there are innovative magos like there are commissars like Ibram Gaunt. It's not the norm. Worse, it's not the theme and tone of the setting.
I'm fine with headcanon though, but it's headcanon.
>>43589335
I feel it.
>>43589361This would look so much better without the breasts.
>>43589357
>theme and tone of the setting
The setting is a million worlds containing a billion trillion people. These people are not the the norm, but at this scale, a rare occurrence is beyond certain to exist. 40k's metaplot is built for GRIMDARK WARBATTLE POLITINTRIGUES, but the setting's scope and variance is so vast that it's sufficient to contain every other genre there is.
>>43589373I won't complain if they get edited away.
>>43589374
There is a quote from Tom Kirby, IIRC, which says in the case a question pops up in 40K, you should always pick the most grimdark answer.
>>43589384
>always
>most
There is no hope left in Man.
>>43589283
No, barring actual in-character pieces which GW barely even does anymore (though they were extremely common in 3rd edition). Codexes still frequently contradict older material, each other, and sometimes even themselves, but that's mainly through a combination of both deliberate retconning and plain incompetence.
>>43589432
The plural of codex is codices
>>43589335
I'm liking it. Nice work.
>>43589642
No.
It's Codii.
>>43589696
>codii
latin student here, for that to be possible the nominative singular would have to be codius
>>43589642
I know, but Geedubs always use "codexes" for 40k army books. Maybe a stylistic thing, who can say.
>>43589691
Thanks.
Drawing techpriests doing silly things is pretty fun.
Here is a slightly more final version.
>>43589776
It gets better. Thanks, drawfriend.
Once again, Carnac shits up a good thread.
Why hasn't that asshole been banned yet?
>>43590884
Discussing the lore is not a banned offence. Complaining about moderation is a bannable offence, though.
>>43590884
I find your lack of lore dissuasion disturbing.
>>43589243
>>43588695
>>43588524
>>43588234
This fluff isn't really a recon. The intro blurb to 40k which was created at the beginning of 3rd edition, featured in nearly every rulebook since then and every BL book has stated that science and reason no longer really exists.
The Mechanicum novel released in 2008 showed how the Mechanicum were loosing their ability to truly understand technology.
The cult codex itself mentions that the admech make new stuff but it also mentions how it is nearly always never understood or forgotten when stored in their data warehouses.
>>43592136
>The cult codex itself mentions that the admech make new stuff but it also mentions how it is nearly always never understood or forgotten when stored in their data warehouses.
I feel the same when i draw and store it away or download references.
>>43588884
Can anyone tell me what year the 13 BC ended? 2011?
>>43588151
Fucking weeb mary sues
