Rulebooks
>https://mega.nz/#F!pFgm0RKR!J06C1gVYcjzNGsF8YNLsjQ!EVh0GZZS
How do you guys play against Xeno with you Heresy Armies? Do you find the games balanced or fun. I have friend getting into the Horus Heresy and two of our playgroup don't have the funds or time to buy and build/paint armies, but have beautiful Ulthway and Badmoons Eldar and Ork armies and we don't see a reason why they cant join into the action. both factions existed during this time period after all.
What say you all?
>>43572999
First I say get the updated thread pic for fuck's sake.
Second, yes, there should be more variety, at least as it is, unofficial.
>>43572999
Eldar will skullfuck you viciously until about 3k, where things start to even out a little.
Only a little, mind you. They are still Eldar, after all.
Orks are fine, if rather underpowered.
Eldar should be fine. Orks... well, you might want to introduce some buffs, because let's face it, they're kind of fucked up against flare shield Spartans, Primarchs, or Fury of the Legion. If memory serves me right, the 7th edition FAQ has some suggestions on how to make 40k and 30k mesh together.
While I'm at it, I'm thinking of putting together a beginner's guide or FAQ of a sort, seeing as how we get an influx of people getting into the game with Betrayal at Calth, and basically asking the same questions over and over. Any suggestions of questions that might need answering? So far I'm thinking something like:
>Remember you don't have to go with unique units/Rites of War. Some of them are worse than the vanilla options.
>Yes, that includes Coils of the Hydra. We all know it's cool, but it's really goddamn restrictive.
>We all know Phosphex Medusas are rad as fuck, but they're objectively inferior against most targets.
>Spartans with flare shields are essentially front AV 15/16. But remember that there's ways to get a fuckton of haywire or lance weapons, so don't put all your eggs in that basket.
>Units get cheaper the bigger you make them, encouraging fewer large units over multiple small ones.
>Sons of Horus don't actually suck.
As an aside, LC Cataphractii. Worth anything? They look bitchin', but LCs aren't exactly fantastic.
>>43573460
This already got asked last thread, post it instead of whining
>>43573596
The killer is the additional cost, to be honest. Lightning claws are actually pretty goddamn good compared to the base power weapon, but I'd probably stick with one of them due to the second one doubling in cost for some reason. At which point I might just be inclined to get a power fist for the same cost.
That's what kills lightning claws for me. You can't make them any cheaper, because at that point there's no point in taking anything else, but at the moment they're just too expensive considering the other options. Dual lightning claw Cataphractii are 45 points a piece (more if you're sticking with the base 5 man unit), and that's melta bomb Deathshroud costs.
To be honest, with some exceptions I find it really hard to justify taking Terminators in general. By the time you give them the gear they need to be more than Tacticals with better saves, they have a tendency to end up ridiculously expensive, particularly with most lists lacking a way to Deep Strike them. As ridiculously goddamn tough and killy as Firedrakes or Imperial Fist Terminators can be, they still die like bitches to AP2 pie plates you can get for a fraction of the cost.
>>43573645
Happy?
Could someone update me on the fate of FW's MkV armour?
I've tried all the filters, it looks like it got removed, sadly.
>>43574018
too fast, anon, too fast
>>43573976
FW are probably just streamlining their stock, now that their website is similar to the GW one. Products will randomly appear and disappear as warehouses get their shit together.
>>43573569
>Age of Darkness requires different units and have different limitation
>Graviton and not grav
>Thousand sons and Space Wolves have no rules yet
>Blood Angel, Datk Angel and White Scars will have their legion amd rite of war released february but the rest not untill later
>Shattered Legion and Black Shields are also die to be released
>Only troops can secure
>No xenos
>Play at 2000p atleast
>>43573976
You can ask them directly.
ForgeWorld is very responsive with their customers.
>>43573671
Imperial Fists have the best terminators, followed by Iron Hand immortals. Every other is different flavours of expenses.
>>43573976
according to the recent 40k event, fw are redoing the kit. Should be out again sometime around the next fw book as a lot of the black shields and shattered legions are depicted wearing mkV
>>43574106
>>43574159
Good to know, thank you.
>>43574219
OK, this is great news! Definitely looking forward to both the new armour and the book.
>>43574219
>>43574333
here again. Is there any chance FW will do Indomitus TDA in the vein of Gorgon Terminators?
>>43574201
Imperial Fists are still really expensive for what they bring to the table, particularly if you're not playing Stone Gauntlet (and if you do, no Deep Strike for you). 15 points for a storm shield is kind of nuts. And as an Iron Hands player, I think Gorgons are kind of iffy, depending on whether you bring Ferrus Manus or not. Vanilla Cataphractii get better invulnerables and a 6+ FNP with him, while being cheaper to boot. Gorgons get that weird Blind thingie that is extremely situational, worse stats, and a 5+ FNP. And a free thunder hammer, I guess.
It's just really hard to justify taking them over more Tacticals, Support, or Veterans. Sure, I could take five Gorgons. Or I could take ten gravitons/volkites/plasmas/meltas, which won't need a Land Raider/Spartan to get where they need to be.
Deathshrouds are good, because they soak up fire like crazy, are relatively cheap for what they bring to the table, and actually fill a really nice niche with their rending flamers and infantry rape scythes. They don't have much in terms of upgrades, and don't need it. They can also be taken in really small units if you'd like. They usually end up cheaper than vanilla Termies model-for-model, while being more effective. I'd definitely consider Deathshrouds the best Termies in the game.
It's the same thing when I see Iron Warriors players raving about the firepower they can bring with Tyrants. There are so many cheaper ways to bring that kind of firepower on sturdier platforms. I get that it's cool, and the thought of unique units nobody else (except the Alpha Legion) can bring is appealing, but in a lot of cases you're paying a premium for stuff that may not be all that useful. I'd rather have regular Imperial Fists Heavy Support Squads than Iron Havocs, for example.
Hey, do the Deathwing exist at the time of the Horus Heresy. Maybe not in the Fallen hunting role but the elite terminator formation.
A friend wants to dive into Heresy and loves Dark Angels, Deathwing most of all.
He wants to do a pride of the legion list with Dreads, Terminators, the works and have some classic Deathwing action, but I dont recall if they even existed at the time. I know there were books written about the Dark Angels already so maybe someone can help.
The only DA fiction I read was the short story where the Lion and the Haunter beat the shit out of each other.
>>43573645
It was one of the first 20-something posts of the last thread
>>43575259
The Deathwing were not a thing during the Heresy. It came about post-Tyranids, which is still a long time off by M31. With that said, you have way more different types of Termies running around, seeing as how it was still new tech they were trying to figure out, so you have a lot of experimental stuff like Gorgons, Cataphractii and Tartaros suits.
If your buddy wants to go Terminator heavy, he might want to check out the Death Guard, seeing as how it more or less falls into their shtick, and they have the largest number of different Terminators.
>>43575386
Or wait to February
Out of curiosity, what are the better generic units in the heresy list?
Sicarans and Deredeos? Thudd and laser rapiers?
Will I get beaten if I use a regular drop pod as a dreadnought drop pod?
>>43572999
What do I need to get in the action of Horus Heresy?
>>43575558
a name
So where do you get your recasts /tg/?
Promise I'm not a GW spy, I just want 40 cheap breachers.
>>43575409
Well, considering we've been told DA won't get any unique units, you're at best looking at a RoW that will use loads of Termies. Which already exists for Legions that have unique Termies.
>>43575446
I guess it depends on what you want. I'm a pretty big fan of the Scorpius, myself. If we're including non-Marine lists, Castellax and Solar Auxilia mortar Rapiers are pretty much god tier.
>>43575573
An ineffable effable
Effanineffable
Deep and inscrutable singular Name.
>>43575623
aliexpress
>>43575680
I heard they got the GW banhammer, or is it just certain people on aliexpress that got the ban?
>>43575996
They pop up now and again and disappear quite quickly so you have to be fast. Just got my latest order today.
>>43576066
Any specific one you've had good dealings with? I don't want to run into a shitstorm.
>>43576675
I think they are pretty much all run by the same people. It's always a different name but everything else is the same.
I'm trying to think of a title for night lords chaplains (similar to war sage from the omnibus) since I don't think 'chaplain' fits NL that well. Is there one already (in BL stuff etc)? Any ideas?
>>43575259
The deathwing existed at the time of the heresy, as did the ravenwing. The dark Angels legion operated six types of socialized wings. Other known ones were the dreadwing and stormwing
>>43576992
Socialized.
Commie. REEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>43576992
And Ironwing.
Any rumours on the new Forge World HH book? Any hopes or wishes?
Bump, one would think these threads will keep up, considering BaC release.
how's this looking?
Word Bearers (2500pts) (Dark Brethren)
Legion Chaplain (175pts)
Artificer Armour, Burning Lore, Tainted Weapon, Warp Shunt Field
Zardu Layak (275pts)
Anakatis Kul Blade-slaves
3x Legion Tactical Squad (600pts)
14x Legion Tactical Space Marines
The Ashen Circle (310pts)
Dark Channelling, 9x Incendiary
Iconoclast
Phosphex Bombs
Gal Vorbak Dark Brethren (360pts)
9x Dark Brethren
Dark Martyr
Tainted Weapon
Legion Rapier Weapons Battery (165pts)
3x Laser Destroyer
Mhara Gal Tainted Dreadnought (305pts)
Legion Predator Strike Armoured Squadron (310pts)
Command Tank
3x Legion Predator Tank
Heavy Bolters
Ordered myself the BaC box. Considering to use half of it to bolster my IW numbers (5 veterans and 10 base tacts, dreadnought and 5 tyrants). The other "half" I was considering to make an allied contingent of Raven Guard. 5 veterans, 10 tacts and going to get Mor Deythans later. Should I go for combi-weapons or sniper rifles?
>>43577698
The hype of BaC has been drawn out since sprues were leaked a couple of months ago, and with model pics available on the website there's not much else to get hyped about until people can start getting games in. It's the calm before the storm.
>>43574333
Was hinted when it would be released?
>>43578312
Combi-weapons are better unless you really plan on making use of the range.
Also an Allied Department does need the same FOC of the Age of Darkness
>>43578379
February
>>43573569
>>43574111
This needs to be done
>>43577760
anyone?
>>43575386
You're so wrong on multiple levels, but I'll focus on the fact that the Deathwing has always been there. It's been stated that the Da have 6 'wings' in 30k, of which I can name off the top of my head the Deathwing, Ravenwing, Ironwing, and Dreadwing.
>>43578570
Oh thanks.
Can't wait for Febuary.
>>43572999
There was a youtube battle report that had a Third Legion list going up against Orks, and they buffed the regular Boyz up to where they had stats closer to Nobs, Nobs were closer to Warbosses, and the Warboss was closer to a Primarch and had a shit ton of special rules.
Eldar could work with a few buffs too but it would be difficult finding something everyone could agree on.
>>43578553
It's an allied detachment for my Iron Warriors army. So primary detachment is IW and allied detachment is RG. Already have an asked detachment of WE. It consists of centurion with jump pack, assault squad and jetbike squadron with plasma cannon. So IW has the gun line and heavy guns and then either WE for melee or RG for sneakyness.
Gotta figure out which weapon for combi... Perhaps melta.
>>43573976
I asked them two weeks ago and they said
Thanks for your email. Yes, those items are currently no longer available to order. Don't worry though as they are being re-worked and should return in the future. We don't have a date for this right now but keep an eye on the web store for details.
>>43577698
Rumors? They basically had a whole seminar regarding the contents of Book 6 last month. You can find the seminar bullet points online. FW isn't like GW, they gladly and openly talk about their future projects.
>>43578769
Praise be!
So, look what I got today. Good times ahead for my Word Bearers!
What have YOU done recently to further the Primordial Truth?
>>43578963
Spent money on FW instead of shitty plastics.
>>43578981
Now he can use that money to buy a typhon and a sicarian.
>>43578981
>>43577760
does 30k have its own list thread? or just no fellow word bearers around?
>>43579201
HH Generals aren't good for lists because most people play for narrative campaigns. Should probably join a HH forum that does list reviews like B&C, 1st Expedition or Heresy30k.
>>43579243
thanks, it's just an idea list i scribbled together with battlescribe.. kinda wanted to know if its complete shit or not before i get some models
>>43578766
I unsure but FOC are suppose to be different from the normal ones.
Check out book 5.
>>43575558
Betrayal at Calth is a cheap starter box for models. Otherwise download and read through the rule books for the legions/armies and see what you like. The main rules are from the main 40k rule book.
>>43576955
Flay Masters? The NL never had many morals so Chaplin's wouldn't be the same in their ranks.
>>43579020
Nah, he can spend it on Angron, red butchers and some flare shielded Spartans.
>>43576955
Warden, most legions called them wardens.
>>43578907
So another contemptor variant alongside the already known Leviathan. My wallet is scared.
>>43579345
Also all this.
>>43579345
Also smaller dreads that they used to fight Orks. The stuck them in storage after Ullanor and are bringing them back out to fight in the Heresy. Probably going to be centurions! :p
did 30k dreads get updated to have 4 attacks?
>>43579366
Yes, I was thinking of Cortus. Unless it's an entirely new model like Dorrito, I'll just magnetise a regulat Contemptor.
>>43579495
What? What's the source on that? I haven't read about anything like it in books.
>>43577760
>>43579201
A word of warning, brother in truth.
Blade-slaves, while powerful and fluffy, rob Layak of a lot of potential. Better to stick him with the Gal Vorbak where he really shines and can make use of his awesome utility toolbox, and stick all of those in an assault vehicle. Deepstriking, while not awful, is very limited for melee troops.
>>43579729
Just verbal stuff from the last HH open day/event.
>>43579542
The contemptor got upgraded to A3, A4 if you give it two CCW, but the regular Legion Dread is still the same.
>>43579729
The Cortus is the smaller dread used to fight orks. According to the seminar they'll be run in units of 3.
>>43579020
>>43579307
Compared to buying the same stuff from FW, he saved ~£810. He can literally buy Angron, a Typhon, a Sicarian, three Spartans, 25 Red Butchers and some WE etched brass and still have cash left over.
>>43579736
what kind of vehicle did you thought of, brother? cause i need to drop a lot for a spartan or domething similar
>>43572999
Hell no. I started playing HH to escape the retarded bullshit that has overrun 40k. Why would I want to put my infantry heavy Legion Crusade list against a fucking WraithHost, Decurion faggotry, or Taus easymode bullshit?
Nice OP too dumbass. Never start the HH general again. Fucking sage.
>>43579917
One might claim that a single Spartan might serve you better than even three humble Predators, brother, for the mighty machine can hunt just as well. Even more so once it has delivered the Trice-Born and his flock into the midst of those still blind to the Primordial Truth.
>>43580162
i shall follow your words, as wisdom lies within them. but i still have a question, enlightened one, is it true that even the mighty spartan cannot handle firing both its laser destroyers if it moved, for their burning fury is too much?
>>43580273
Not precisely true, brother, but unfortunately there is truth in your words. Even the grand Spartan cannot fire it's weapons with its fabled precision once it has begun moving at cruising speeds, though during combat speed our brothers within are still able to direct at least one weapon on target. Coupled with the mighty machine spirit contained in the metal behemoth a steadily advancing Spartan can provide accurate fire, at multiple targets even.
Truly, a most blessed vehicle.
>>43580463
your words embolden my will to smite the unenlightened with the help of this masterwork. it shall bring the fury of the Gal Vorbak to the enemy!
>>43573671
Well, yes and no.
For Terminators, replacing the base power weapon with a lightning is a straight-up upgrade, so it should cost a small amount, 5 points tops. Replacing the tl bolter however is a neutral - for a marine with a power weapon it's exchanging a ranged attack for Shred and two attack profiles, while one with a Lightning Claw already is exchaning shooting for an extra attack. It's a fair trade, so it ought to be free.
For models in power armour, a Lightning Claw is a Power Sword with Shred but 1 less attack. That's a fair cop to me, so Lightning Claws should be the same price as normal Power Weapons, and definitely cheaper than a Fist. This would make dual Lightning Claws cost 20pts for unit Characters and 30pts for Independent Characters. I'd say this is a little steep for exchaning a pistol for an extra attack. The solution is simple - offer a 5pt discount on any duplicate weapon. Now those numbers are 15 and 25pts, which is fairer.
You could also extend this to other weapons, in case you really want a character with both a sword and an axe for modelling and combat flexibilitiy purposes, or pistols.
~
A more pressing issue beyond this is the value of Power Swords and Thunder Hammers. Is the 5pts extra for a Hammer really worth Concussive? Does the meta advantage of a Sword really match the oomph of Axes and Mauls?
>>43580143
Thank you for your input
>>43573596
I think they are awesome, pricey for sure but cataphracts look so sexy with LCs Im just going model all BaC termies with them, even the praetor.
>>43580143
THE BUTTHURT!
>>43580143
>Average30kPlayer.jpeg
Do Solar Auxilia work as a stand-alone force in HH? I was checking out some of their models and I'm just in love with their aesthetic. Plus the idea of Saturnian void fighters using power axes to fight genetically engineered super-humans makes me happy.
>>43579307
Aren't flay masters the NL apothecaries/primus medicae
>>43572999
Xenos lists vs 30K work just like any 40k vs 30k game: At low points 30k dominates but as the points go up xenos/40k starts to win out.
Basically they end up being roughly equal at 2500-3000 points then it begins to tilt away from 30k as it increases. Under 1500 points and you start having real problems, AdMec in particular seems to be pretty overpowered in low point games.
Solar Aux reportedly shoot the shit out of Tau in low point games, they make better infantry gunlines.
>>43581560
Yes, they're very decent. Collimators gives surprising reach to objective campers, Blast-chargers are useful for making marine opponents shit a brick and the Dracosan is an amazing transport capable of brute-forcing its way.
Outflanking Fast Leman Russ squadrons mean you get to dictate the pace of the battle (not to mention the fact that battlecannons in an all-marine environment are sickeningly good), Malcador-variants are super-heavy tanks hiding in the Heavy Support slot and Charonite squads can throw down with just about anything.
You like the axe-guys? Good news, the Household Retinue of the Lord-Marshal are a WS5 bodyguard squad that is among the best combat units in 30k on account of being cheap, solid and utterly meta-defying.
>Unwieldy axe? We don't care, we are only I3 anyway.
>These fancy AP2 weapons you paid a fortune for? Not any more scary for us than a powermaul.
>You have Hatred, Rage, Furious Charge and all that? Grav-wave Generator and Shroud-bombs say you don't, assuming you even manage to get a charge off.
And said Lord-Marshal? Can comfortably and swiftly punk over any non-primarch bar Sigismund.
>>43581778
I'd always heard it was the other way around. That at low points, 40k could do better, but above 3000, HH can bring its best toys and starts filling out the Age of Darkness FOC while 40k hits a wall. Have new releases changed the dynamic?
>>43581778
>in low point games 30k dominates
...what? You do realize that the big issue with the legions against 40k is that they only start ramping up at 2k and above, when the outrageous taxes on legion MSUs start to matter less and less?
Before that point legions will always be at an disatvantage against 40k stuff.
>>43582186
Not at all, he is talking out of his arse. Even Mechanicum got dialed way back with the recent changes, and both Legions and Auxilia only start picking up speed once you can vomit enough dudes and tanks onto the field.
>>43581778
>>43581778
>>43582266
The biggest question is not point limits, but how new the codex is.
Xenos Codex with Formations will destroy any HH list, barring Iron Hands or Imperial Fists.
HH lists will decimate any Xenos Codex without Formations.
>>43582589
Perhaps I'm missing something, but I can't understand why everyone here ranks the fists so high. I understand IH, but everything good the fists get is so damn expensive that I don't see how it can work.
>>43582186
>>43582266
>>43582322
>>43582589
You all kinda fail at making 3000+point lists. How you deal with 30K lists as a xenos/40K player is simple: Max out all your force chart options. The rules for large games are quite clear; if you have maxed out your chart then as long as it is a legal list you can start a second one. Hell, at 4000+ points some armies can max out two charts and start a third.
It is actually required for some armies, Inquisition and Knights will be 3-4 force charts for a 3000+ point game. Hell, a 6000+ a Inquisition player could manage 5-6 force charts.
Sure they might field a warlord. So what? THE FOOLS THOUGH YOU MAD FOR BUYING 100 JOKERO MODELS? WHO IS LAUGHING NOW BITCHES!
>>43582949
Good basic LA rules and very solid special characters. That's a cut above the average in 30K.
>>43579271
Well using this. It is a bit different from 40k, but quite self-explanatory. From Crusade Army List book.
people who say 30k vs 40k is unbalanced or doesn't work are idiots and just don't bring the right lists.. at any point level itworks just build a list on the fly and don't use your cookie cutter 30k marine fighting list.. geees if your on a great crusade against orcs your going to build a fucking list before battle do you even play wargames wtf.
Hey, /hhg/, I posted a thread earlier asking for painting advice and ended up getting referred here.
Basically, I got the Dark Vengeance box ages ago as a gift and I want to finally get around to painting the minis in it. So since I don't have anyone to split the box with, I figured I'd paint the Dark Angels in the box in Pre-Heresy colors and use them as part of a CSM army, but I don't know how to paint the Ravenwing bikers from the box. I've since found out that the pre-Heresy Deathwing termies seem to black and yellow/gold, but I can't find anything about the bikers. Any tips?
So...do the traitor legions get any bonuses for being traitor legions? Ex. Word Bearers getting daemons since they recruited quite a few back in those days. Oh and I am also sorta considering this HH/30k stuff. My two favorites have always been Thousand Sons and Word Bearers. Which ones looking good/has dat support at the moment?
>>43585491
Word Bearers have Daemons when you take certain units/characters. Called Diabolists or something, look into Book V of the FW Horus Heresy series.
As for Thousand Sons, nothing yet. Forgeworld has realized that the Burning of Prospero is a massive task, and so they are taking their time with it.
Current ETA is 2016, but it may take even longer considering they have to make rules/models for Thousand Sons (arguably the legion with the most unique look), Space Wolves, Custodes, and Sisters of Silence.
So I'd go with Word Bearers at the moment if you don't want to wait at least a year for 1K sons.
>>43585491
Word bearers get daemon allies with their rite of war, and their HQs can be ml1 psykers.
Gotta have more infantry than tanks with their rite though.
>>43579243
>Should probably join a HH forum that does list reviews like B&C, 1st Expedition or Heresy30k.
What are these other communities like? Which is the best?
>>43585552
>>43585574
Word. Gonna download those books first see what this is all about. Might wait for the 1k support ultimately cuz I am already working on a Thousand Sons 40k army, a Word Bearers 40k army, and possibly a Black Templars one, too. It's fun to actually be able to spend money on this stuff once you finish college and get a real job :)
>>43585974
They're all good. But don't be a jackass, they're good communities and don't need Anon-behaviour shitting them up.
>>43586033
I know that feeling. I'm in the middle of transitioning from broke-ass grad student to productive, well-paid member of society. It's strange and mildly uncomfortable, if exciting. Next stop, about 4k more points worth of models
>>43577760
Tainted Weapons are bad, don't bother with them.
Zardu should lose the awesome looking Blade-Slaves and joint the Gal Vorbak, cause he's awesome and a Heavy Flamer and Force Weapon will help out alot.
Ashen Circle want 1 or 2 Power Axes. They are dirt cheap and really help occasionally.
Gal Vorbak are on CC duty, so scrap the Tainted Weapon on the Martyr, give him LClaws, and add a Maul to the squad (S7+rending is great).
What is the point of the Mhara Gal Tainted Dreadnought here beyond drawing fire?
>>43585974
Heresy 30k is the farthest from 4chan on the spectrum. Everyone knows their shit but you will instantly be shunned if you act like an anon. Its a good thing
>>43583458
Been living under a rock since 6th edition, have we? Rules for battle forged clearly state that you can use as many force org detachments as you like, so long as each has the required HQ and 2 troops.
>>43573569
i feel like we should be able to get phosphex bassies rather than medusas
>>43587121
So if you have any negative opinions at all about GW (The Price, the ridiculous way the HH Book Series has become slowed down and milked without going anywhere) they shun you?
>>43587807
If you have a well thought out opinon, no. If you're a typical anon newfag, yes.
>>43587832
I have a physical copy of every single HH Release to date, but Deathfire and now the Honoured and Unburdened are the straw that's broken the Camel's Back. Deathfire was a complete waste of time and effort that achieved nothing (Seriously, using Giant Flamethrowers on the Life Eater Virus? One Ship Trying to Invade a Legion Homeworld? Said Legion Homeworld having no Planetary Defences whatsoever aside from the aforementioned giant flamethrowers?) and these latest two are horribly expensive for what are just tie-in products for the new release.
If they had actually tried to make this a good series and not a cash cow they'd be at Terra by now, not in yet another endless side-quest for a revelation that will change the Heresy, yet never does.
And this is from someone who's been a fan since the series started in 2005. I have an original Paperback of Horus Rising from the initial print-run. It was so exciting back then. Not anymore.
>>43587858
Yeah, I never buy hardcopies of BL books other than the HH Weekender version of Macragge's Honour. I just download the books from torrent sites and read them on my iPad. The FW books have better fluff imo anyway.
>>43580751
>The solution is simple - offer a 5pt discount on any duplicate weapon.
As if dual-Plasma-pistol-wielding Moriats were'nt enough of a problem.Actually, no-one runs with dual-Plasma-pistols on the Moriat since they nerfed Chain Fire, the optimum now seems to be a Volkite Serpenta plus a Plasma pistol. Still, a 5 point discount might still make it worthwhile on some characters.
Does anyone have the legion painting guide?
>>43573671
>>43580751
>Is the 5pts extra for a Hammer really worth Concussive?
Well, against other marine targets it'll also usually mean Instant Death. That's where it's better than the Power Axe (along with an improved ability to wound), which is the same cost as a Power Sword. Also in a pinch it can hurt vehicles; think of it as a more rounded alternative to Power Axe+Melta Bombs, where it's worse than the Melta Bombs for penning vehicles (unless you have loads of attacks and rear armor is 10), but better than the Axe for anything with a Toughness value.
>Does the meta advantage of a Sword really match the oomph of Axes and Mauls?
This is far more naunced. In Standard 40k (where the power weapons are templated from, cost and all), the answer is clearly 'yes' because 2+ saves are so rare that you normally need very specialized units to get through them en masse. But wide Artificer armor availability for Sergeants shits up that calculation for basic-squad-versus-basic-squad comparisons. Having said that, the I1 drop for Power Axes is potentially far more crippling in 30K where there are so many crazy, lethal weapons that opponents could surprise you with, while Maces are so much less impressive when you know that so many more opponents will be all-3+ saves.
I think it still balances out, the key (which is true in 40K but not nearly as important) is that you have to plan units and their upgrades for what you expect them to be doing; it's not the case (as it frequently isfor non-CSM armiesin 40K) that there is an 'optimal' choice and all other options are for extremely specialized circumstances. In 30K every unit and every upgrade for those units needs to form part of a proper battle plan, even when you don't know who exactly the enemy is or what exactly the mission will be.
>>43588084
Hey, I just wish they didn't give Frag and Krak grenades out by default at least to generic squads and made them 1 and 2 points respectively, and lowered the cost of those units by the same amount. This was the standard way that the Space Marines codex operated in 4th Edition (probably the most customizable), and would allow the interesting dynamic of saving a few points/upgrading the sergeant for "free", versus a slightly lesser tactical effectiveness. It would give more point to all of those crazy weapons that leave dangerous terrain pie-plates all over the table, and reduce the effectiveness of marine units non intended for a particular role from being pressed into that role situationally. In short, it'd add a huge strategic dimension to the already deep list-building aspect, encouraging you to add grenades to units that you think will need them and discouraging you from adding grenades to those who you think won't, offering the potential problem of less effectiveness if you're forced to use them contrary to your intentions, but at the same time penalizing players who hedge that risk across their whole list by giving them less points to spend elsewhere.
>>43588032
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Modelling/Horus_Heresy_Painting_Guide.pdf
>>43587144
Thematically, I agree. Phosphex isn't anything that the deliverer wanted to be any closer to than they had to be, excepting the specialized destroyers who were experts with its use. It's a much better candidate for a long-range bombardment weapon than a short-ranged one. Unless maybe it's far too unsafe for inherently inaccurate artillery?
I'd be happy enough if they simply made Medusa shells an ADDITION instead of a replacement, so that you could alternate between the type each time you fired. It'd go from "this is so situational that the Medusas can't make back their points with only this ammo" to "Hmm, will this additional tactical option be worth the points to bring along as well?"
>>43577760
Do you know that you won't have to deal with flyers?
Ignoring fliers can be a viable tactic, however, you might find that a Deredeo (or even just a Contemptor-Mortis) might serve you better than the (awesome, but sadly not vital) Mhara Gal.
If you love the Mhara Gal, you might consider lascannons on the Predators, and trading the Rapiers for three Hyperios Tarantulas.
>>43588120
Is there one for the other legions?
>>43583458
The rules for large games are quite clear; if you have maxed out your chart then as long as it is a legal list you can start a second one.
>>43587126
>Rules for battle forged clearly state that you can use as many force org detachments as you like, so long as each has the required HQ and 2 troops.
No. One chart only. If you max that out, play Apocalypse instead.
"Further advice on selecting your army and its composition may be found in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook. However, note that the Force Organisation charts presented here take precedence over that listed in the rulebook and, unlike the standard chart and battle missions found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, you may not take an additional primary detachment in games over 2,000 points unless specified by the particular mission (the expansion of the army being taken into account in the Battles in the Age of Darkness charts)."
-- The Horus Heresy Legiones Astartes Crusade Army List: The Isstvan Trilogy
"Battles in the Age of Darkness games as shown in our existing Horus Heresy volumes and this book use their own missions and special core Force Organisation charts as well as special optional charts. These replace the
standard Battle-forged army system which is presented in the Warhammer 40,000 rule book and are intended to be used in conjunction with the missions and campaign systems found in Forge World's Horus Heresy volumes and the core Battles in the Age of Darkness missions that are provided here. Specific formations , detachments, etc, which are not found in the Horus Heresy volumes should not be used in Battles in the Age of Darkness games.
Each Battles in the Age of Darkness army is composed of a single Primary Detachment, and may also contain a number of optional (Secondary) Detachments as shown on the relevant Force Organisation chart."
-- The Horus Heresy Book Five Tempest
>>43588230
Not that I know of.
The Horus Heresy Model Masterclass is coming out any day now, but it hasn't been released yet.
>>43588010
Exactly anon, exactly. All we need then is to fix the Moritat's Chain Fire by
- removing the enhanced rate of Overheat and
- simply removing the bonuses of Chain Fire from further shots rather than ending the chain altogether on an Overheat
And Plasma Moritats are viable. As are also Volkite Moritats, as a pair of pistols would only cost 5pts and put out buckets of weak shots.
>>43588084
You are aware that most of your points about Thunder Hammers are also true about Power Fists, right? The question was whether the Concussive rule is worth spending 5 more points than a Power Fist or, not whether doubling your Strength is worth 10 more points than a typical Power Weapon (I'd be surprised to hear a case otherwise).
You correctly grasp all the factors I had in mind about the worth of Power Swords, but don't reach any conclusion. My belief is Power Swords are only worthwhile as a means of shredding Legiones infantry in 30K. Any combat character worths its salt is going to fight with Artificier or Terminator armour, because even if the top tier of fighters will be using Paragon Blades and Thunder Hammers it's still worth the bonus against AP-less attacks and the ilk. A Sword is literally worthless against these targets, while an Axe and a Maul at least provide some advantage. For threshing common units the Sword is slightly advantageous to Axes and Mauls, but not by much - and there are few effective vehicles for this application.
The solution I propose is designed to make Power Swords attractive, both as an en-masse weapon and as a tool for characters looking to fight other characters. Power Swords have the Defensive Stance special rule:
Defensive Stance: Models armed with a Power Sword can declare they are fighting in a defensive stance at the start of any round of combat. All the model's weapons count as Two-Handed for this round. In return, the model recieves a 6+ Invulnerable save, or improves an existing save by 1. The model does not have (1/2)
>>43579542
>>43579868
I believe they said (at the Warhammer 40,000 Open Day) that they will get the upgrade, though, just not yet.
Was the battle of Molech covered in the FW books?
>>43588307
(I got a bit distracted as my computer was running slow)
(2/2) to fight with the Power Sword to use this Stance.
The Power Sword now has a niche of value in character combat. Althought it isn't helpful against models with 2+ armour saves, in conjuction with Refractor Fields, Iron Halos and Terminator Armour - and for those legions with access to them, Storm Shields - a Sword-wielding model becomes a defensive bulwark, useful for fending off both numerous foes and elites alike. Meanwhile unit sergeants that opt for an afficient anti-troop weapon also get a small boost to survivability against tougher targets, which can be enhanced by Combat or Breacher Shields.
>>43588085
I agree with all of this but there's one issue - Frag and Krak grenades are probably worth 1/2 a point and 1 pt in today's army list economy. How do we charge fairly for these items?
Lets say in 30K a Tactical squad costs 135pts. Each additional Marine costs 9pts, so a 20 strong-century comes to 225pts. There are two ways this unit could charge points for grenades:
1) By head. The unit can purchase any of the following grenades for all models in the unit: Frag grenades - 1/2pt per model
Krak grenades - 1pt per model.
This would make 10 model units cost 140, 145 and 150pts for one or both grenades respectively, and 20-strong units 235, 245 and 255pts in turn. Pretty fair, but it requires the use of a 1/2 point, which 40K and 30K have neatly evaded for their entire run.
2) Bulk values. This is the tricky part. If we say the entire unit can purchase any of the following grenades:
Frag grenades - 5pts
Krak grenades - 10pts
Then the basic 10-strong has the same values as before, but the 20-strong is 230, 235 and 240pts - a saving. Is this fair? If we instead implement higher costs:
Frag grenades - 10pts
Krak grenades - 15pts
Then units with 20 models come together more fairly at 235, 240 and 250pts. But now basic 10-strong units are very expensive at 145, 150 and 160pts. Is this better?
Maybe the benefits of picking and choosing grenades when they are needed merits leaning on the side of caution and picking the pricier options, as the points saved elsewhere in the army will still add-up to additional purchases elsewhere? So maybe 1pt Frags and 2pt Kraks aren't that bad. But for sure, Tactical Squads that cost 120 and 210pts at 10 and 20 models strong are a steal, grenades or not.
>>43588307
>The question was whether the Concussive rule is worth spending 5 more points than a Power Fist
Ah, I see my mistake. Well, guess the idea is "it has to cost *something*", so they made it 5 points.
Thunder Hammers are usually in two kinds of fights: ones you win instantly, and ones you win (or maybe lose) very slowly.
For the first kind (Instant Death, only had one wound, Explodes!, etc.) the hammer is about the same as a Fist.
But for the second kind, Concussive could make the difference between winning and losing, because if you're up against a tough opponent that you can wound (there isn't much you can't wound with a Thunder Hammer) but not instantly kill, on the second and subsequent rounds, you both fight at I1. For Gal Vorbak, or Castellax, or any number of other examples, that gives you at least one more chance to kill them, as long as you survive the first round (which you would have had to survive to benefit from a Power Fist too).
The thing is, if it was much less than 5 points, it'd be another automatic-buy. So I think 5 points is probably about right. Better that it cost too much than too little. And plenty of people take it anyway.
>You correctly grasp all the factors I had in mind about the worth of Power Swords, but don't reach any conclusion
No, I think I do. In 40K, it's an easier comparison because it's rare that any of the choice will all be near-useless even if they're sub-optimal. In 30K, the sword could easily be useless if every challenge opponent has a 2+ (not rare), the axe could easily be useless if every challenge opponent attacks at initiative (not rare), and the mace will almost never benefit from, because any opponent where the +2S matters (marines, Automata) the AP does nothing, while any opponent where the AP4 matters (Mechanicum junk troops, Solar Auxilia, Militia) the +2S is overkill since they're probably T3.
Since they're all equally specialized, I think they're still balanced (against each other, at least.)
>>43588400
Not yet.
Just put together the first dread from BaC as a Contemptor-Mortis. Despite my fears, the kit is not as inflexible as I feared. The legs suck, yes, but the rest is easily converted.
Even the head can be shifted around with only a little effort.
>>43588581
My stance is that 5pts is too much for a benefit as situational as Concussive. Concussive only matters
- when fighting multiple-wound models
- when said model cannot be Instant-Deathed
- when the combat is going to last several turns (ie the losses on one side aren't so overwhelming as to cause a break)
Admittedly, on a Primarch-tier fighter Concussive is a real blessing, as all combats are guaranteed to play out this way, and the same is true of characters built to threaten Primarchs - provided they can be made tough enough to last several rounds themselves, of course. None of this applies to 40K however, and Primarchs are still a highly situational factor in 30K.
I like the image of the Dawn of War commanders swinging Thunder Hammers around with two hands. I also understand that hammers are a half-way point between maces and axes in real life terms - blunt like the mace, angled like the hammer. But the Thunder Hammer functions just like a big Power Axe. This gave me an idea.
Grant Thunder Hammers two different profiles. Both are Melee weapons that double the user's Strength and provide the Concussive special rule.
The first profile is AP 2, Specialist and Unwieldy.
The second is AP 4 and Two-Handed.
Ta-daa, we now have a slightly-more justified 5 point price over Power Fists that also allows hammers to be used in a thematically cool way while also reflecting reality better. Not to mention the tactical possibilities.
>No, I think I do.
You arrive at the idea that different Power Weapons fulfill different niches, but do not justify why those niches are equal. The crux of the argument is that the meta-value of AP3 is not enough in 30K, which we both agreed.
>it's rare that any of the choice will all be near-useless even if they're sub-optimal
I disagree. Axes and Mauls are never useless, while Swords are useless against a key target, 2+ saves.
The example you give for Axes is only true if the opponent is also strong enough to slay the wielder (1/2)
>>43588760
Changing the knee joints is probably a nightmare but changing the hip->leg and hip->body joints is easy with a hobby saw, no?
>>43588581
(2/2) before they strike, which is only an issue for Centurions and Consuls without Invulnerable saves or unit characters - examples not central to the arena of character combat.
The +2 strength from Mauls meanwhile is not to be underestimated. Wounding on a 2+ is in fact valuable - not as valuable as ignoring armour, but still infinitely more valuable that the sword's non contribution, and with a Wounding and Initiative bonus over the Axe. It also comes massively in handy in combat against light vehicles - a character or Terminator with a maul can make several initiative strikes up to glancing the front armour of a castaferrum Dreadnought, and with a 50% chance of damaging RAV 10 non-Walkers. In other words, Mauls are en-masse Krak grenades. Lastly, against multiple wound T 3 models, Power Mauls provide a cheap, at-Initiative source of Instant Death. Even given that most such units purchase Power and Artificier armour, that is valuable.
Simply put, the Axe and Maul fill more niches than the Sword - which is simply threshing marines. The meta-biased value of this is too weak to justify the cost, as I see it.
>>43588822
Knees are straight-up impossible unless you are amazingly good with green stuff, but the others are easily done, yeah.
Word of warning, though. I ultimately changed only the waist joint, even though I actually severed the hip joints as well. When I tried to reposition the legs, the stiff knees looked pretty awkward when put into any pose other than the default one.
>>43575386
You may have confused deathWING and deathWATCH. the latter is the xenos killer that live off of giving 'nids a hard time, former are zealous termies with a hard on for torturing the fallen
>>43588929
He might be speaking of the right Deathnoun, but is probably confusingthe foundation of the Deathwing, which were around about as long as the 1st Legion, though not termi-only back then, and the famous battle of a DW squad against a genestealer incursion on a Dark Angels recruiting world which led to their iconic bone-white armor.
(Which, it should be mentioned, happened way before the fall of Tyran.)
>>43588985
Ah, did not know that bit of info, my mistake then. TMYK
>>43584516
Ignore and build your forces.
Why is your army allied with Word Eaters and Raven Guards?
>tfw can't settle on a single legion
I know I can't be the only one, how did other fa/tg/uys overcome this problem?
The only thing I'm sure about is that I want to field many dreadnoughts.
>>43589208
I steadily narrowed it down, and only made the final decision yesterday when I picked up my BaC boxes.
I started out with Alpha Legion, Death Guard, Wolrld Eaters, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Sons of Horus/Luna Wolves.
- SoH got knocked out of the race early, on account of their shit rules
- Iron Warriors were ultimately too boring to paint
- World Eaters are monobuild as fuck and don't work too well with BaC
- Alpha Legion's rules and RoW are very restrictive and awkward
So the final decision was between Death Guard and Word Bearers, and I just went with my gut in the end and picked Word Bearers
>>43589208
With BaC, you have almost everything you need to play a NL terror assault list. Ave Dominus Nox.
I put together an analysis of the 13 available Legiones's various metrics and rankings before I went to bed last night. I've had a look today and it checks out to me.
Here are the results of the analysis, along with a bit of the data I used. Red means Lagging Behind, Purple means a Cut Above and Yellow, Green and Blue mean Low, Mid and High. All of this is relative to the advantages of other Legions. The chief goals to get a rough accurate overall ranking of the available Legiones with respect to the vectors of their differences.
All thoughts are welcome.
>>43589465
Here's the same data rearranged from best downwards.
This also allows you to construct a theoretic Best-of-All and Worst-of-All Legion by cherry picking dfferent elements. LA Alpha Legion, Iron Hands wargear, Word Bearers units, Death Guard Rite of War, Sigismund and Guilliman, anyone?
>>43589526
Awoops.
>>43589465
Hmm, is Horus only 'good' because of his high price?
Not really agreeing on the AL RoW, which is very limited, and wargear, which is either meh or bullshit. I'd consider both more of a 'blue' candidate.
The rest seems pretty accurate overall.
>>43589096
To fill up holes in tactics the IW are not fluff-wise filling. WE for fast moving chain-axe wielding close combat. RG for sneaky assassination
>>43589601
>Hmm, is Horus only 'good' because of his high price?
What? A high price is a bad thing, what are you on. Horus is good in spite of his price.
>AL RoW, which is very limited
What. This time with a full stop. Poaching any special unit is far from limited, that's amazing.
>wargear, which is either meh or bullshit.
Power Knifes are "meh"? What's bullshit about any of their kit? The Drakaina is a distinctly middle-of-the-road Relic, and Banestrikes and Venom Spheres are all gnarly and useful.
>>43589635
You fell for the AL troll without looking at the tiny text that makes the RoW a lot less interesting.
>Play 40k
>Be a fluff player
>Prefer playing the 30k dudes because they're basically fluff central, while the pure 40k dudes tend to be a bit towards the tournament mindset
>Have a lot of fun, even if the battles are non-canonical as fuck, and the 30k dudes seem to enjoy having more than four people to play as well
>One of the 40k guys moves over to 30k
>"Anyone feel like playing?"
>"Well, I play Minotaurs, but I'll play you if you don't mind matching up against 40k."
>"Not at all."
>"Would you like a higher point total so we're a bit more even?"
>"No, it's fine, I only have 2000 anyway."
>Hey, this dude seems pretty cool too!
>We begin setting up
>Dude plays the most hardcore fucking Iron Hands list I've ever seen
>Whatever, I don't really mind losing
>Dude insists all his units are scoring because "we're playing 40k" despite him clearly using the Age of Darkness FoC
>When I ask, he also claims that the Price of Failure doesn't apply to him for the same reason
>Game starts and I manage to get to my shooting phase before the dude opens his mouth in protest
>"What are you doing?"
>"I'm re-rolling all my ones."
>"You can't do that."
>"Sure I can. Moloc gives all my dudes Preferred Enemy: Space Marines."
>"Yeah, but that specifically only applies to stuff from Codexes. I'm not using Codex: Space Marines."
>"Are you seriously arguing that my special rule that specifically mentions Space Marines doesn't work against your Space Marines due to a technicality? By that logic, it doesn't apply to 40k Space Marines either due to the change to Codex: Adeptus Astartes."
>"Dude, those are the rules."
>"You were just arguing that you should get to use rules that aren't even in your book not half an hour ago!"
>"Yeah, but those are in the core rulebook. You're the one who asked to play me just so you could use your army-wide special rule to give yourself an advantage."
>"Okay, you know what? You win. Good game."
>Pack up my stuff and go play someone else
>>43589694
I see literally no special drawback that dampens the value of Coils.
- Entire army must Infiltrate, Deep Strike or use Transports. You were probably doing the former anyway, and the latter two can be arranged.
- Additionaly Troops. An extra Tactical squad isn't a terrible penalty.
- Only one Consul other than Vigilators. Small recourse.
- No allies or Fortifications. Standard.
Meanwhile, you have a greater chance of getting the first turn - crucial with mass-Infiltration - can mess with enemy reserves, and steal an enemy unit, sitting in the Elites slot. You have 4 Elites slots to burn so it's pretty useful if you're stealing a gun-heavy unit for a gun-heavy army - you can take a squad of Iron Havocs and have 3 normal Heavy Support Squads to boot.
Have I missed anything?
>>43589768
Yeah, you've missed that every unit has to Infiltrate, Deep Strike or be Transported BEFORE you can choose the Infiltrate mutable tactic.
>>43589746
>Space Marines don't count as Space Marines
>>43589806
Point out where it says that. Has there been a new FAQ recently?
>>43589746
>things that never happened: the post
>>43589846
You pick your mutable tactic when you generate warlord traits.
In CotH you may not select Infantry without the ability to infiltrate, deep strike, or without a transport.
You select your list before rolling warlord traits, so you don't have Infiltrate yet.
Sources: Book 3 pages p 258-259
>>43589920
Do you believe this was Forgeworld's intent?
>>43589465
>Iron Warriors have better LA than Sons of Horus
>Iron Warriors not being dead last
Seriously, what the fuck? I mean, the Sons of Horus LA isn't particularly awesome, but Iron Warriors are by far the worst. They basically get a shittier version of Death Guard and Salamanders, only with bigger drawbacks and without the additional positives they get.
Also, Imperial Fists really need to be way, way higher considering their bullshit awesome LA and ridiculously good unique equipment. I guess I kind of mostly agree with the ranking as far as looking at each individual section (with some notable exceptions), but putting equal emphasis on all parts means that you end up with ridiculous shit like Imperial Fists being ninth because their unique units are pretty meh (conveniently ignoring that their versions of vanilla units are possibly the best in the game) and their gear makes them fuckawesome.
>>43589635
>What. This time with a full stop. Poaching any special unit is far from limited, that's amazing.
Considering everything either needs a transport, or you have to take Infiltrate for your Mutable Tactic (making you shittier Raven Guard since your entire shtick is adaptability), it's a lot less appealing. Not to mention that most special units just aren't that good to begin with.
>Power Knifes are "meh"?
Power daggers are pretty bad to be honest. You save 5 points on power weapons. Really, how many dudes are you going to stick power weapons on? Two? Three? Isn't it worth spending the extra 5 points to just get a proper power sword and not lose one attack and one point of strength?
> Venom Spheres are gnarly and useful
Eh. Are you really going to be doing a lot of charging? And are a couple of extra S4 hits going to help much? By all means, for 5 points you might as well get them for those times you will be charging.
People seem to overestimate the Alpha Legion in general. They're good, but definitely not at the level of, say, Iron Hands or Salamanders.
>>43589920
FW e-mails have actually revealed that RAI is that you can use your Infiltrate Mutable Tactic to satisfy the requirements for Coils of the Hydra. It's still distinctly mid-tier, though.
>>43589838
I guess you could argue that the Minotaurs would only be familiar with post-Heresy Marines and therefore wouldn't be familiar with Great Crusade tactics. But that would be a shit thing to do.
>>43589977
The Iron Warriors have a pretty poor LA but give it a break. They have no drawback (seriously, giving the enemy the ability to extend random game lengths makes little difference), while completely immunity to normal morale checks - the lesser but more common threat - from shooting is nice. Sons of Horus just get a worse Night Lords. I might, just might move Iron Warriors down into the Red but Sons isn't going up.
Do you really consider the Imperial Fists' LA that valuable? I can reconsider it, but it doesn't strike me as matching the sheer options of Alpha Legion. Bolter accuracy, Tank Hunter Heavy Weapons and Skilled in Challenges strikes me as even to Iron Hands resilience, Raven Guard en-masse Infiltrate & Fleet/Furious Charge etc.. I can also accept that Imperial Fists should be higher, but the equal emphasis has nothing to do with that. The system is well-calibrated, and will reflect changes in one vector realistically in the total.
>everything either needs a transport
Not the end of the world
>take Infiltrate for your Mutable Tactic (making you shittier Raven Guard
How? Raven Guard get Fleet, you get better equipment and Infiltrate on everything, not just footsloggers. Strikes me as even. Oh and no Tank restrictions.
>special units just aren't that good to begin with
>laughing three-headed snake.jpeg
>Power Knifes
>bad
>5 points for an extra attack on a Praetor
>bad
:/
>Eh. Are you really going to be doing a lot of charging?
With combat units, yes.
By your non-commentary, I'll assume you accept the value of Banestrike rounds.
>People seem to overestimate the Alpha Legion in general
Maybe, that tends to happen with the best. They're not MASSIVELY better than the Hands, just a bit.
>>43589959
Perhaps, it seems odd that they'd make a detachment with good bonuses when the requirements can easily be sidestepped.
Also, the big Alpha Legion battle in the book was conducted by Deep Strikers and an armored company. There actually isn't much mention of Alpha Legion marines materializing from the shadows as a whole and "nothing personnel kid"ing on an army sized basis.
>>43590114
Being locked into a single immutable tactic - your army's primary feature - outside of carefully assembled builds does not strike me as a mere sidestep. I digress.
>that last sentence
This sounds like something I'd read in the 40K general. There's a reason I don't browse those threads.
>>43589977
Shut up you, you, you double Dorn!
Any ideas for NL company/squad/commander monikers/titles?
>>43589977
>Power daggers are pretty bad to be honest.
I don't think you understand the purpose of Power Daggers.
So seeker squad, mor deythan, headhunters are basically the same kind of unit? Are terror squads as well?
I just ordered the two red books from FW. Do they have everything I need to build a list? Wargear, Rites of War, etc.?
Or are there options in the HH books that arent in the red books?
>>43590419
nah terror squads are basically better veterans
>>43590456
It wouldn't make sense if were the other way around. The Red Books are collections and refinements of the serialised stream of rules from the main books.
>>43590365
>people think this is funny
>>43590113
>5 points for an extra attack on a Praetor
I think you need to read the rules for power daggers again. They're specialist weapons. Also, models don't get a benefit for having more than two melee weapons. Power daggers don't have the whole servo-arm "you get to make an extra attack with the following profile" bit, you can just take one in addition to your regular weapon options. -1 S and A in exchange for AP3 Rending is pretty shit.
>By your non-commentary, I'll assume you accept the value of Banestrike rounds.
Well, yeah, they're pretty good. But then again, Sons of Horus get them too, and they don't seem to get any cred for that.
Also, Scout is way better than Infiltrate, particularly since Headhunters already have Infiltrate and therefore won't benefit from it a second time. Also, forced transports are a pretty big deal, partially because it locks you into smaller squad sizes (which is a negative in numerous ways in 30k, not the least of which is non-linear points costs and Martial Hubris), and partially because a lot of your stuff will have ungodly fucking expensive transports, meaning they're no longer worth taking.
>Do you really consider the Imperial Fists' LA that valuable?
Dude, they all hit on a 2+. Seriously, do the math for a Fury of the Legion attack with that shit. It's fucking insane. Not to mention that their Heavy Support Teams are point-for-point better than Iron Havocs. Their vanilla shit outshoots other Legions' specialists.
No offense or anything, but the more I see you post, the more I'm starting to doubt your whole matrix. It seems like a lot of it is predicated on "this looks good at first glance" rather than from experience. Mathematically, the Sons of Horus LA is better than the Night Lords one against most targets, for example. And that's not getting into the stuff like the synergy between their LA and RoW.
It just seems like someone looked at each individual component in a vacuum.
>>43590456
Ultramarines and the updated WB are only found in HH5, but otherwise the red books are fine.
Who here /Word Bearer/?
>>43590496
>Power Daggers
The idea is that Power Daggers are a nice, cheap way for your Praetor to get an extra attack with his Paragon Blade (remember that Paragon Blades are also Specialist Weapons, so the only way to get an extra attack with the Paragon Blade is to get another Specialist Weapon). You're not supposed to actually attack with the Power Dagger.
>>43590550
Reporting in, brother!
>>43590496
>They're specialist weapons.
You don't attack with them.
>>43590554
Well, that explains it. It's been so long since I read up on Specialist Weapon that I remembered the 3rd edition lightning claw rules where the weapons had to be identical to claim the extra attack. In that case, yeah, they're pretty good on that one specific model.
>>43590496
>They're specialist weapons.
>thinks this is a bad thing
or
>doesn't know Praetors are guaranteed armed with a Paragon Blade or Thunder Hammer
or
>doesn't know these weapons are Specialist
:3
>Well, yeah, they're pretty good. But then again, Sons of Horus get them too, and they don't seem to get any cred for that.
UhYAH they do. They get a green for mid, given that that's about it. The Relic's nice but a bit pricey, and there's fuckall else.
Scout is useful on units which already have Infiltrate, but the bonus to those units is smaller than the bonus of granting everything else Infiltrate unless you REALLY base the army around Infiltrators. If you do then fair enough, but that isn't exactly making Coils of the Hydra look poor. (I'll admit however that I reckon Coils should've worked with either of Scouts and Infiltrate). You have a point about transports locking units sizes, and given that the army will include 3 Tactical or Breacher squads this will eat up points. I've decided to incorporate this as a factor in round 2 of my analysis, see image.
>Dude, they all hit on a 2+
Dude, that's just one more than a 3+. And it doesn't affect Snap Shots. And it's just boltrounds. Heavy Bolters merely become useable with the bonus, as opposed to subpar. But you know, if that points efficiency thing is true about Heavy Support Squads then that comes for something.
>Mathematically, the Sons of Horus LA is better than the Night Lords one against most targets
I'd like to see your calculations on this. While the Night Lord's bonus is redundant with weapons that already Shred, I can't see the benefit of a risky extra slow attack pulling through beyond tough ID-proof character clashes. Plus there's no bonus at all for Unwieldy fighters.
>the synergy between their LA and RoW.
The Sons of Horus need to utilise LA-RoW synergy to match mid-tier Legion's LAs or RoWs individually.
>It just seems like someone looked at each individual component in a vacuum.
All (1/2)
>>43590496
(2/2) equipment is considered from the purpose of the units wielding them, which includes the impact of the LA rule. Unique units are considered for the niches they fulfill in their army, the same as any other, and ultimately the same for Special Characters and the Primarch. RoW are considered for their overall army bonuses against their drawbacks; it's literally impossible to assess this aspect in a "vacuum".
Have I personally playtested every possible unit and army? No, but neither has probably anyone present. We all know the game well enough to understand the merits of various units. We are not 40K general, I hope.
~
I forgot to attach this to my last post, but I took the more reasonable suggestions and readjusted the data. Here's the second draft; Iron Hands are slightly ahead of Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors have sunk and Imperial Fists risen. I'm happy with both models at the minute, I'm looking for more debate.
>>43590462
Terror Squads also have fear and infiltrate.
>>43590491
> it wasn't supposed to be funny but insulting.
You sure live up to your Dornness. You sad, sad emo.
>>43590709
It's sad when the most apt response to a comment is to repeat the statement to which the comment was itself a response.
>>43590700
Veterans can have Infiltrate.
>>43588248
>Specific formations , detachments, etc, which are not found in the Horus Heresy volumes should not be used in Battles in the Age of Darkness games.
Xenos and other 40k armies are not found in Battles in the age of Darkness. If you play against a non-30k army with your legion, you are not playing Battles in the Age of Darkness, so it's highly questionable as to whether you can expect your opponent to build an army using those rules. The logical default is that both sides use the force org rules that usually apply to their army list.
>>43590550
Preach it Brother!
![1420574747936[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ugxa9AE.jpg "1420574747936[1].jpg")
>>43590575
>>43590550
Praise Lorgar!
>>43590550
an aspiring one here
Going death guard but I need help building my list since I haven't played a game so I have no idea whats good and whats not, but I just ordered some deathshroud and I was thinking about a list including breacher squads, typhon, mortarion,grave wardens and destroyer squads, but I'm not sure what would be good to get these guys across the board (if I even want to) so what are some good transports for termies and the like?
>>43591995
Destroyer squads are fluffy for you, but not that great in general, particularly since you can just take rad grenades as it is. I also think that breacher squads are seriously overcosted. You really only have two transport options: land raiders or spartans. If it can fit in a land raider, put it in one. If it can't, put it in a spartan. If it can't fit in a spartan, I question what the fuck you're doing.
>>43592045
what would you suggest as a good troop choice, I'm probably also going to be adding apothecaries if they're any good
>>43592191
Tactical squads are pretty much the best you're going to get. They have a lot of bolters and are your cheapest option, which is particularly good if you want Mortarion and bunches of legion-specific termies. Apothecaries are wonderful. Make sure to give them artificer armor.
>>43592267
I was also wondering if I should use a storm eagle for transporting dudes around and also can you transport the primarchs or no?
>>43592373
You can but flying transports suck in 30k. They're way too easy to shoot down. If you really want a flying transport go for a Dreadclaw or Kharybdis.
>>43592373
Mortarion should never be transported. His entire thing is being fast as fuck. Like, faster than any transport in the game levels of fast.
>>43591995
If you're going to take Breachers, don't give them a transport, it's a waste of points that need to go to other units. Typhon sucks. Used him in a proxy game recently and he just fucking sucks. His chem-bombard is trash, he's T4 no Eternal Warrior and needs a transport box, costing at least another 200points. DON'T TAKE TYPHON, just use him for a nice model. Grave Wardens are nice, they grenade launcher is fun, so is having 5d3 flame templates as they get charged.
>>43592658
I glanced over this post and for a second thought you were saying TyphonS sucked. Nearly blew my mind there.
Isn't Typhon himself almost as expensive as A Typhon?
>>43592841
No, Calas Typhon, not the Typhon siege tank (damn it FW).
Typhon(character) is 200pts, the typhon(tank) is 350 base with upgrades ranging from +5 to +40 points. However, to make Typhon(character) useful, you're going to need a transport, which puts him up at like 450+ points. Think of all the legion heavy support squads you could field instead!
>>43592933
I didn't clarifying AFTER I made the post saying I briefly misunderstood. ¬_¬
>Think of all the legion heavy support squads you could field instead!
OR Typhon Siege Tanks! Which are pretty brutal if I may so myself.
>>43593000
My bad.
While I do see the power of Typhon Siege Tanks, since the Legion in question is Death Guard, Legion Heavy Support are non-compulsory troops (if you correctly took their rite of war)
>>43589208
Wait for the broke legion rules so I can mixed units.
>>43588760
how easy is it to insert the FW arms into the plastic dread?
>>43593485
Pretty sure he bought two boxes and that both of those asscans are plastic, seeing as he got a duplicate of the crozius as well.
>>43593693
humm, seems that way. anyone have any experience with dong the FW switch-a-roo
>>43590861
ForgeWorld specifically address this.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/Betrayal_FAQ_Errata_V2.pdf
>>43590456
The Red Books are the summary of all of the non-fluff, non-campaign, marine-only content of the first three books (since they came out at the same time as Book 3).
They don't include anything newer, or any Relics, or anything for the Mechanicum not available straight-up in marine lists. But they're fine for getting started, most (but not all) of the rest of what you need unless you're needing Ultramarines. Also, their Word Bearers content is out-of-date now.
>>43593835
Judging by the sprues, the arm is split into two lengthwise (one part shoulder joint, one part outer shoulder) so it shouldn't be much more than cutting out the square bit off of the outer bit and the arm off of the inner bit. Not sure if the multi-melta/power fist you're cutting off will be salvageable though.
I have a FW asscan currently drying from its clean-up and a BaC box on the way. I'll try to make a contemptor-mortis and I'll make sure to post results here if no one else has done it by then.
>>43593838
>errata from a full year before the release of 7th edition
>clearly states that you can put whatever forces you like against each other
>only stipulates that Age of Darkness FOCs should be used in games over 2000 points where LoW and Primarchs are being used
Top kek. Try again.
>>43594067
Brilliant, that would be much appreciate anon. want a double asscannon dread as a stand-in for a butcher-contempt for my CSM, and as a mortis for my 30k
>>43594151
While true, your earlier point was equally stupid. There's no reason to assume you'd use two different systems fighting each other. If you're fighting a xenos army youre either both using the 7th Ed rules or both of you are using the age of darkness rules. If you're both playing regular 7th definition of battle-forged, they can use decurions and such, and Implacable advance gives you objective secured. Conversely, if you've both agreed to the age of darkness system, then they don't get formations and such, being restricted to the force org charts presented in the HH books, but they do get the different LoW choices for their slot.
Honestly, this is a rather silly 'argument' to be having, from either side.
>>43593347
I think I'll go for the Alpha Legion since it offers the most variety between Mutable Tactics and the Coils. Over the last few threads I've read a lot of people whining over how 'restrictive' the Coils RoW is, and in a way they've got a fair point. On the other hand, the Coils simply has a different kind of limitation compared to other Rites, and in my opinion, it requires a lot of forethought, but is the most rewarding. I also can't wait to see what new Rite will they get in the upcoming book.
>wanna make a terror assault list for NL with volkite charger terror squads
>chinaman has only calivers, no chargers
So is the price going up for BoC after release or is this an out of date price?
>>43594896
It's already been stated that the Visions prices are old because it goes to the printers much earlier than the WD.
>>43594808
Just cut the middle bit out of the guns? Calivers are just long Chargers, in the resin and in effect.frankly I wish Calivers were a bit more useable or exciting. Salvo 1/2 or a split Heavy and Rapid Fire profile would've been nice.
>>43594938
That's what I'll probably do but it's still 30 guns to go through
>>43588760
the contemptor looks like it's trying to hold a titanic shit .
EVEN IN DEATH I MUST SQUEEZE
>>43594896
Strange, you'd think they'd release grukk or that space wolf guy before the blood angel captain.
Dual plasma Contemptor-Mortis mockup made from the BaC dread and some plasma cannons from a Landspeeder Vengance. Are the gun arms too big?
I mean, assuming the stuff on the pic can be made out. Camera died and the one in the ipad produced this blurry mess...
>>43595190
Looks perfect to me. Really liking all the Contemptor conversions we're getting out of BaC
>>43595190
Use Deredeo plasma arms IMO
Judging by the dual volkite stack having two barrels and still being thinner than your cannons, the choice you picked might be too big. The Deredeo one is quite thin as well.
>>43588760
The legs totally ruin it, at least from this angle. It would have been better with a more dynamic leg pose and static everything else.
>>43594745
I'm tempted by AL as well. The colour I picked for my Crimson Fists is close to AL colours so it would be easy enough. I'll wait until I've finished at least one 30k or 40k army before starting a third though. I think I still have a company worth of Marines to paint
>>43595315
Why not just use the Contemptor plasma arms? The Deredeo ones are way too long, plus the mount is different than the Contemptor mount.
>>43595683
We need to go longer!
volkite chargers sold out on FW
REEEEEEEEEE
>>43595683
Because he is a poorfag
>>43595759
Plastic heresy weapons incoming
>>43595190
Looks really beefy, like big plasma bricks. Certainly an interesting aesthetic, I'd roll with it to see how it looks in paint.
>>43595828
Then he also probably shouldn't be buying Deredeo Plasma arms.
>>43596041
doubtful.
>>43574111
>2k minimum
Don't forget the new strike forces and consul for games around 1,5k that came out in tempest
>>43581778
>Alternate Inverted Dimension: The Post
>>43589465
>>43590694
So very colorblind, but RG should all be high. At the very least in units
>Mor Deythan arguably the best at killing everything while not being expensive
>Dark Furies extremely effective and points efficient; for the cost of 2 LCs you get 2 LCs, a jump marine and a boatload of special rules etc
>Stealth Storm Eagle
>Only Primarch that can go solo and be great
>RoW is a hard counter for most 30k marching lists.
>LA are straight good; you weren't taking tank spam as RG anyway.
>Wargear includes stealth, Night Vision, and Ravens Talons
You're killing me smalls
>>43597807
You're largely in luck, Raven Guard are good in every metric except for Special Characters which are Cutting Edge and Primarch which is average. Corax is too vulnerable for my taste, but I'm change-amenable.
>>43595013
May be saving them for when Orks or SW are going to be involved in a campaign. Of course this is assuming that the reason for the release of BA models is that one of their successor Chapters, perhaps the Angels Sanguine going by the Chaplain's paintjob, is going to make an appearance in Mont'ka.
>>43595190
Id like to see more pics of it from the sides, but it looks pretty sweet to me.
>>43573823
Only when that Blood Angel isn't clipped out of the frame.
>>43590113
>>43589977
Alternate LA:IW rules:
>Add the charge after rapid fire rule to the regular LA:IW, with the caveat that you may not claim an extra attack instead of disordered charge (so you can claim Perties FC buff)
>Hammer of Olympia now instead lets any vehicle buy siege plating (+1 front AV, to a max of 14) for 15 points
Thoughts?
>>43598221
yeah Nex and Maun are 11/10. But so are the Mor Deythan. TL-Combi flamers with rending erase units. Dark furies are just a 10/10.
Corax is straight immune to blasts and by extension some of the deadliest weapons. With the RoW he's always be hard to hit because of the seekers and mor deythan youre cramming down your opponents throat. He's not auto-include level, but that's fine. He can hop around killing one squad at a time and doesn't need a transport or retinue so unlike the other primarchs, who require a spartan and some special units to cart them across the field, your only investment with Corax is just him. And he can wipe whole units on his own with a boatload of attacks.
For the RoW you should also consider their effectiveness againt each other. While the IH and DG slug fest wont net much; RG's Decap Strike is a hard counter to the typical marching band of most lists.
I've played it against WE, DG, and IF several times each. The only time I didn't cripple their armies by the end of my turn two was when the IF player tried a stone gauntlet list with breach blobs and apoths. They were the first unit I couldnt wipe with my Mor Deythan, Nex, and Seekers(And they've T1'd Angron and friends before). Even then I won the battle thanks to grabbing objectives with infiltrate and Stealth.
I know that example 'muh personal experience' but when you look at what the RG RoW can do against most other legions it makes sense that high mobility/high killing efficiency is, within this game system, extremely effective on more static armies.
Though I have yet to play against the other legions so perhaps blue is fine for the RoW, same for the LA.
So the only things I really disagree on are Units, they're gold, and Primarch. Mostly due to the above bit on how much youre spending to make Corax work vs the other Primarchs.
The wargear i'll give you; It's good stuff but not game rending on their own.
Anyone got info on the legio vindictus colors and symbols? I know about them, and that theyre mentioned in some novels. I just don't know if anywhere described what the look like.
>>43590694
Iron Warrios gunline armies are one of the more feared armies in the game. Definitely above night lords and imp fists.
>>43592658
Noome has eternal warrior and his warlord trait is ace.
Preordering the Calth box tomorrow. I'm planning on building them as Red Scorpions, but reading the Horus Heresy General has gotten me curious in the hobby...any place I can watch good batreps online to get a good idea of what makes 30k different from 40k?
>>43601718
Sort of interested in this as well.
>>43601718
>>43602066
There's an aussie youtube channel called WW40k Australia that does 30k halfway decent. They get a lot of rules wrong but usually put in notes. Fully painted though, thats a big plus in my book.
Heresy 30k is pretty good and BnC has a huge 30k section too.
>>43602153
What about First Expedition?
>>43603556
Never heard of them. Who/what is?
>>43603786
They're one of the three largest 30k communities, alongside Heresy30k and the Bolter and Chainsword. I wondered if anyone had any experience with them.
>>43603990
A quick look at their site and it seems pretty dead.
Eye of Horus (podcast) is good for 30k content. They cover the basics on armies and have a good ad mech episode if you want to get to know some of the units. As long as you don't mind Australians, cursing (Australians) and sometimes inane content (primarchs vs cryptids, how many cats can Dorn eat before they overwhelm and defeat him, etc)
>>43604826
The thing about First Expedition is that the main man of all 30k (Whose name escapes me, but he heads the BL Team and works with FW to ensure cross-compatibility) co-owns and posts there. It's about as official as a 30k site can get.
>>43600390
Alright, well this is a strong case for Raven Guard high power. Corax's blast resistance never really occured to me as a factor. I was always struck by his lack of conventional resilience and none-cheap cost. I may have underestimated him.
The question is, how do Raven Guard match up against current top-tiers like Iron Hands? I am aware just simply comparing who tends to win between these two armies is riddled with Rock-Paper-Scissors, but which one turns out strongest overall would be a good indicator. My charts serve as a good tier indicator, not a finegrain analysis.
>>43600350
This sounds good, I'd take it. I'd maybe consider adding a little pizaz to Iron Havocs while we're at it. It's not that Havocs aren't good, but rather they need something to make them equal to and different from basic Imperial Fists' Heavy Support Squads.
MAYBE - just maybe - let them Snap Shot heavy weapons and then make a disordered charge? It's crazy but it's been done before.
>>43601569
Have a look at the first analysis. Then read the text of the post to which you link.
I know there are a lot of you who are like me. We all Indecisive Anonymous. There are 18 legions, 13 of which have rules. Then there are knights, solar auxilia, renegades & militia and admech. They all have their pros and cons. Rules, fluff, characters, tactics. There are things we love, hate, want, shun.
Well now. How do we pick one? How do we choose a favourite? The one with the best rules? Best fluff? Best colour scheme?
Best I can think of is to pick one and stick to it. There have been times I've regretted, and times I've been proud. How have been managing?
>>43606446
I myself change my mind until the first mini has been painted. After that I stick to what I have selected. At the moment I have primarily Iron Warriors. But thanks to my Indecisive Anonymous membership I also started to collect World Eaters cqc allied detachment. Now I have ordered BaC and at the moment debating about should I use half of it to make Raven Guard or Alpha Legion... To get some infiltrating assassins.
how do I Solar Auxilia?
I once started to write a list, but I'm guessing unlike space marines I shouldnt make my commander 150pts
are malcadors any good? I like the look of them but they're more expensive than russes
what about graviton cannon rapiers?
