The difference between Arcane and Divine Magic continues to be a thing that scourges against me because for every potential answer as to why they are different there is an example that puts this theory in doubt.
First of all the most obvious distinction is this: Divine Magic comes from a God or a Greater being while Arcane Magic is some mystic force you control by studying it in a book. However: Sorcerers tap into arcane magic naturally as they are descended from great beings. Furthermore Warlocks confound the issue further by LIKEWISE receiving arcane magic from a greater being directly.
Clerics can also forego receiving powers from Gods and rather worship concepts or ideals. A cleric could, for instance, have such faith in the idea of Knowledge and the power of Fire that he could just become a cleric with the Knowledge and Fire domains. There are also PrC's for Clerics who straight up defy or oppose the Gods but retain Divine magic.
The only distinction between the two that maybe holds up is that Divine Magic users tend to be chosen while Arcane Magic users either peruse their power directly or are simply granted it as part of a chaotic happenstance of the universe. But the only distinction being the method of which the power is granted seems like a somewhat arbitrary one to make to classify them as entirely two different forms of magic.
So what's the deal /tg/? How is Arcane Magic truly different from Divine magic?
It's an arbitrary game mechanics distinction to justify different mechanical roles for arcane and divine classes. It's inconsistently justified in fluff, which isn't helped by people publishing arcane classes that work like divine ones, or vice versa. At this point, the distinction is 'Whatever the fuck you say it is'.
>>43571139
Long story short? It's not.
Long story? It's rooted in churches wanting to condone their magic and have a reason to condemn other peoples' magic irl. ... Actually, that wasn't that long of a story.
>>43571304
But it's not in D&D.
Or at least certain varieties aren't depending on the edition.
In 3.5 the only form of magic openly opposed by all Clerics (and not just "this guy worships a guy my god hates") was Binders and Pact Magic which despite having similar origins to Warlocks were two separate things.
Most of the lore in 3.5 indicated that Churches were perfectly fine with Wizards or Sorcerers. Hell a Cleric of Boccob was basically indistinguishable from a Wizard in some respects. And the mainstream churches (primarily the ones for each race and Pelor) had little to opinion on arcane magic. At least as a force that people used. They opposed the abuse of it but that's just common sense.
In 4e things were maybe a BIT more like that since Binders became apart of Warlocks but that was still only one class of Arcane Spellcaster that clerics might openly oppose. The two power sources didn't openly oppose each other or anything.
>>43571427
So in D&D they don't condemn other magics. Fact remains that the only difference is the wording of the churches. Maybe in earlier versions there were only divine casters and arcane casters? Either way, the terminology is definitely dated and you really shouldn't give it much thought if you don't want it breaking down.
>>43571139
Is the source of power INSIDE or OUTSIDE of the caster?
Wizard: Internalizes spell knowledge and powers from their book, but does in fact Cast them from internal-outward.
Sorcerer: Internal natural power sources, albeit inherited ones.
Warlock: Deals for their powers, but they are invested Directly. You can renege on your deal with the devil or fey or abberation or w/e and your powers don't go away. The interplaner repo-man might rip them out of your soul if they catch you, but you were playing fast and loose with the supernatural when you made the deal in the first place.
Bards: still internal, just manifests differently from the Sorc's focus.
Cleric: Your deity acts on your behalf. Your miracles cease to function if you fail to obey their tennets without finding a different patron.
Druid: the spirits of nature or patron deity of the wilds/life/nature/etc will change and answer to your requests because you have made yourself a part of the natural order and an adjudicator there-of to preserve it.
Favored Souls are clerics with less restrictions, but they must still act to remain in their patron's favor or their divine sugar-daddy stops paying the bills, and they stop recovering spell-slots each day.
The PrC for anti-deity clerics, the Ur-Priest, does so by Stealing divine influences and reaching to achieve a state of semi-divinity, like stealing fire from the pantheon.
>>43572127
But internal power is the gimmick of psionics, not arcane magic.
Arcane magic draws from external energies.
>>43572127
According to which mythos?
While I understand the settings like Faerun use psions as "mind mages" there's rules within the Expanded Psionics handbook that treat psionics and magic as having no interaction with each other outside of their respective manipluation of the material world, akin seeing in ultra-violet but not the visible spectrum.
Psionics is not simply internalized magic, it is a power source that has nothing to do with the flows of magic or divine intervention in the world, but rather is the mind growing powerful enough to change it through will alone.
"Simply put, psionics is the art of tapping the mind’s potential. A psionic character is blessed with a form of innate ability that enables him or her to use mental power to achieve goals or perform tasks that nonpsionic characters can accomplish—if they’re even capable of doing them at all—only by using gross physical skills such as brute strength or raw agility, or by using intellect or force of will distinct from the natural power of the mind itself."
>>43571304
underrated statement.
to expand on this a bit, one could choose to say that their arcane magic is the direct manipulation of the mechanics of the universe through tinkering as opposed to divine preordained spells that are sanctioned, so as not to fuck things up when cast. This is an especially useful excuse for worlds with lovecraftian beings just waiting for someone to tear a hole in reality, upon which warlocks can make contracts with. these creatures can oppose your setting's gods, thereby separating the two classes via a root in order or chaos.
or you can choose not to try and wedge everything into a place and play something other than dnd, as an option. Up to you really.
>>43571139
Depends on the setting.
>>43571139
Its worth noting that the Arcane/Divine split has been around longer than some of the classes you mentioned.
It used to be the only Divine casters were Clerics and Druids, and the only Arcane casters were Wizards and Illusionists.
The divide was a bit clearer back then, but the more classes they added, the fuzzier the line became.
Pretty much the only distinction now is Divine magic can heal while Arcane can't, and even that's not always true.
You should stop trying to make sense of setting logic in systems where the developer has clearly thought about it less than you have. Homebrew in something more sensible and call it a day.
>>43575313
What about it was clearer?
>>43571139
I think WoW by far has the best model with the difference between arcane and divine being that arcane magic is corrupting, and ultimately leads to an addiction to its use while divine magics are not.
Arcane can do more wondrous and mysterious things than divine magics can (conjuration, evocation, etc.), while divine magics can heal and are not corrupting (depending on where you draw the divine power from).
>>43575926
There are plenty of arcane mages in WoW who didn't fall to corruption. Just like there are many priests and druids in WoW who did fall to corruption.
>>43575748
Arcane magic was always acquired via study, while divine magic was always rewarded through faith.
Some settings took this further.
Faerun for instance had the Weave, which basically said magic constantly flowed around and through all beings. Arcane magic users were those either born with a freak talent to manipulate the Weave (there were other interesting freak talents as well), or those who studied magic (which wasn't as complex as in some other settings, its just that wizards jealously guard their secrets).
On the other side, you had divine magic users, who needed no study, simply the acceptance of a god he showed faith in. In theory a priest did not choose his magics, but rather his spells were given to him based on the god's whims, but in practice this rarely happened.
The goddess of magic did have chosen who were blessed by her, but she could not hive them arcane magic, only enhance the powers they already had.
In all of that it remained true that arcane magic was the manipulation of magical energies that surround you, while divine magic came from higher beings and did not damage ot cause problems for the Weave when used.
>>43571139
They actually have an explanation in DnD funny enough.
Divine magic is basically the Divine gifting a person access to the fundamental force of magic.
Arcane is through brute force study or practice to access the same thing.
So Wizards learn to do it on their own while Cleric need a helping hand.
>>43576043
>Divine Magic comes from a God or a Greater being while Arcane Magic is some mystic force you control by studying it in a book. However: Sorcerers tap into arcane magic naturally as they are descended from great beings. Furthermore Warlocks confound the issue further by LIKEWISE receiving arcane magic from a greater being directly.
>>43571427
Fortunately, in 5E it's an optional fluff bit.
>>43576001
On the damage to the Weave topic, it should be added that a concept that showed up in early Realmslore, was that overuse of any kind of arcane magic in one area could permanently alter the Weave in that area. Changes could be as simple as magical radiation making people sick and mutating animals, to things as wild as entire areas blotting in and out of existence. But magical radiation and the rest of the topic were dropped and never really given proper rules during the time period.
Divine magic, coming from outside the Weave, had no real permanent impact that wasn't intended.
The Time of Troubles changed the rules on this, but fuck the Time of Troubles.
>>43571139
Depends, are you talking about DnD or other games?
Well wizards and the like are either self taught or have gone to some kind of mage school. Clerics are either chosen prophets or cloistered scholars. It's mostly just a distinction between the two main sources of gaining supernatural power. Church approved spells or Archmage approved spells.
Honestly I've never liked their only being two sources of magic. I've started to break it down a bit further. A bit more like 4e. I break it down this way.
Arcane- Magic harnessed by force of will or devoted study
Divine- Magic granted by the Gods or beliefs in an Ideal
Primal- Magic granted by the Spirits and Guardians of the Material Plane
Psionics- Magic harnessed through meditation and mental focus.
>>43571139
I tend to split it, minimally, 3-way: Divine, Arcane, Primal.
Clerics, Druids and Wizards are primarily practicing heavily ritualized magic, tapping in different methods and sources; Clerics by faith (much more than by gods), Druids by awareness, Wizards by experimentation.
Sorcerers are more or less wilders. Their known spells list is short enough that they might as well be wizards without the spellbook (in fact Sorc as a Wizard spec that doesn't benefit from a spellbook in exchange for more prepared spells would make some sense IMO). They're still pretty ritualistic.
Rangers have the awareness of the druids, Paladins have the conviction of clerics but in their ideals more than their gods (ancients mix it with the awareness), Bards know the power of music to change the world and as a result are a bit all over the place (part of me would appreciate if they were more Druidic than Arcane rather than the opposite, or if they could pick their primary spell list at character creation in addition to the unique bard spells), Warlock is mostly arcane without the expensive education. In 3e they were the only common casters (along with 6-level versions of Cleric and Druid) in my campaign world.
>>43571139
Warlocks are like clerics, but their patrons aren't true gods so the power is arcane. They're supposed to be posers that worship false gods like the heathenous heretics they are
>>43571139
The way I've come to view the difference is that arcane magic comes from your brain (understanding) and divine magic comes from your heart (faith).
The way it's actually obtained doesn't matter much, clerics and warlocks get their powers in pretty similar ways.
>>43571139
I break it down into three primal sources of power: Faith, Will, and Law.
What the shaman and priest both have in common is that their power comes from alliances with otherworldly beings (spirits / deities). They have no personal abilities in and of themselves-- but their allies give them considerable power. Whether this requires faith in the traditional sense-- that is, supernatural beings helping you to the degree to which you hold some opinion-- or simply a direct arrangement between you and that being depends on the setting and the author. The idea is that power comes from your ability to win over powerful beings to help you.
The classic Will-based character is the psychic. Their power is entirely internal, driven by their personal store of self-discipline or the degree to which they desire something. Many superpowers boil down to this. In some settings, "true faith" really means you gain power from your own inner spiritual conviction, rather than any outside force. It's a convenient dodge to avoid having to set down which religion is true in a modern setting.
Law means that power is almost entirely outside you, and so only through understanding of and creative application of these laws can you accomplish anything. Usually magic in this kind of system is a natural, impersonal force. Follow the rules, and you get the result. The classic law-based magician is the cinematic scientist, of course, but many versions of hermetic magic follow this.
Faith-based magic is nice because your patron can give you what you need and ride to your rescue, rather than you just being limited to what you're able to ask for. Will magic is cool because it's entirely internal to you; its weakness is that it's limited by your personal potential. Law-magic tends to be safer and more predictable: you're not at the mercy of some spirit's whims or your own psychological limitations, but in exchange you have to operate within rules that are usually very exacting and limiting.
>>43571139
Is this question only regarding D&D?
Because when I rebuilt the magic system from the ground up, I separated all forms of magic by source of power.
Interesting point: Divine magic ended up being entirely included in Necromancy by the technicality that the magic forms from the connection and sacrifice between follower and the spirit of their god.
Look, just make a house rule that dictates what it is to you. I'm in the middle of a total fluff overhaul on all that stuff. I might dump it all hear someday. But really, house rules, as horrible as they are, are often the only solution to the bloated, contradictory things that are the rulebooks.
>>43571139
Arcane magic is something you know. Divine magic is something you believe.
Arcane magic is something you can control.
Divine magic is something you are allowed to control.
Arcane magic is distributed in chunks.
Divine magic flows directly from a source.
Think of having "magic" in general as internet access. Arcane magic works like buying a router. Divine magic works like buying a WiFi extension point. Enchantment works like setting up a server.
>>43579738
This is an elegant analogy.
Arcane is Android.
Divine is Apple.
>>43580297
Then Psionics is Linux?
>>43581196
It's PC.
>>43581196
Psionics is a supercomputer network made out of C64s.
In demons souls they're technically the same thing applied differently, as both stem from the Old One as the ultimate source.
>>43572168
But you have the power.
If you need water. Arcane caster turns the faucet on. That's their power. Divine asks, can I get some water, and god turns on the faucet for you. Psyonics are squirtle and shoots water from their bodies.
>>43581422
Yeah, the Old One is kind of a Lovecraftian Azathoth demiurg sea cucumber or something.
>>43581428
Arcane is dependent on the weave, so tjey can't get shit if the plumbing doesn't work. Divine is not, so the faucet never enters into the equation. Their god just shows up with a bucket.
>>43582572
>Divine magic
>Not dependent on the Weave
>Implying several other gods didn't get absolutely REKT because Mystra died that one time
>>43571170
/thread
>>43571139
I've always considered divine magic to be something that comes from nature and natural forces, like the spirits of the dead or the cosmic force of life. I think of divine magic as something that ebbs and flows and that divine casters channel or simply bring forth from the natural or spiritual forces of the world. There's a strong tendency for DMs to consider deities to be the sources of divine magic, but I feel like it makes more sense (and allows for wider roleplaying possibilities) for divine-magic users to have a command over external forces, often honed through prayer and meditation.
Arcane magic is something that's created, even if it's created by a sorcerer or a deity, by study or force of will. A sorcerer may be using his specially-attuned brain to produce magical cones of elemental force, but those are the product of his mind and its ability to "produce" those forces, not of his mind's ability to channel the forces that exist around him.
The real question is, "what about psionics?"
I tend to think of psionics and arcane magic as being more similar than divine magic and arcane magic. I always assumed the difference was that a psionics-user manipulated the world around him (and his own body) using his mind rather than creating forces using his mind/study (like arcane casters) or bringing out magic that was already there (like divine casters).
So in short, I've always thought:
—Divine: using the strength of one's conviction to bring out magic or energy that's already there
—Arcane: producing magic of one's own using studied methods or inner "spiritual" strength
—Psionic: using the power of the mind (rather than one's devotion or one's spiritual power) to manipulate magic, matter, and energy that's already there
Probably sounds like a bunch of inane ramblings. Guilty as charged. It's open to interpretation, really, and that was always mine.
>>43572127
>>43572257
>>43572168
>>43581428
>>43582572
>>43582643
Psionics completely fuck the Arcane/Divine divide, since the only settings that actually make a big deal out of the divide also don't feature psionics very strongly.
The Weave/Faerun is an example of how they never accounted for psionics, and the Weave is an example of how once you bring too many cooks into a setting any divide gets fucked up anyway, considering the Weave's rules have changed like 3 or 4 times over the history of FR now.
One way to look at the three major types of magic/psi is like this:
Arcane magic users create the power they're using from scratch, either by intuition or by study.
Divine magic users get in tune with the forces of the world(s?) around them and draw them out/focus them.
Psionics users bring out natural power they've got locked in their crania.
I actually think this has been a really interesting thread for conceptual worldbuilding.
>>43571139
You're thinking of it in categorical terms, as if a type of magic was defined by whether it adheres to a specific descriptor of how it's used or what it can do. One could say that water falls from clouds and electricity is sent to outlets through underground passages. That's true, but it doesn't mean that lightning bolts are water or that a sink fauced produces electricity. They're descriptive terms, not comprehensive definitions.
In practice, it seems more like the two types of magic are different forces in the universe, and can be used in different but similar ways. Arcane magic is one thing, and divine magic is another. Arcane magic can be harnessed by specific rituals that can be learned through study, but that doesn't mean any magic learned through study must be arcane. Divine magic is something that gods bless their followers with, but an arcane magic user can also imbue others with power. This doesn't mean that one magic type suddenly becomes the other, just that the categories aren't that strict.
>>43585687
If they share spells too, then what IS the difference?
I think people shouldn't use the same spell casting mechanics for both Wizards and Clerics/Priests.
Instead, Priests should use a system in which they actively call upon their God for a favor, of which the system could represent.
For example; you worship a sun god. Anything relating to the sun could be called upon. Depending on the power of the favor, it can become more difficult.
Typically though;
>Extremely related- Sun God bringing light to a dark place, exterminating vampires, healing/feeding crops and plants, starting a brush fire, melting ice
These types of situations have no penalty at all, and are never denied. A failed roll only results in a minor penance, and only if the cleric demands the prayer be answered.
>Related; Healing someone, lighting a person on fire, dealing damage to normal undead, throwing a meteor down, making an enemy's sword too hot to hold
This category is normal, and only requires the priest's daily devotions to achieve. If the priest does these very frequently, or does them after sinning or not performing daily rites, the God will still grant them but typically with a minor penance, or the god will inform the cleric to pray REALLY hard next time.
>Not related; Unlocking a door, helping craft a magic item, letting the priest float
These categories have a difficult roll for the God to grant them, and will always invoke a minor penace or needed ceremony for the God to forgive or pre-approve these types of things.
>Opposed
Such as lowering the light, doing something good for the moon or enemy gods. Gods don't do this, don't even ask.
It's magic and it just works.
>>43583182
Which is why the two party system sucks.
I incorporated psionics into my magic system.
Then, I killed most of them off in the fluff, making it very difficult to learn new, let alone all, techniques.
Psions can bend the story over and make it their bitch pretty hard.
>>43582922
No.
>>43588646
So psionics are libertarians?
>>43592269
Um, sure. Let's go with that.
>>43592269
No no, that would be if psionics got bent over by the existing systems in place and did nothing but bitch about it. Oh wait, I guess you're right.
>>43593092
I'm glad we figured it out.
So is magic from the devil /demons a sort of divine type magic or just regular magic?
>>43588646
>Psions can bend the story over and make it their bitch pretty hard.
And Arcane/Divine magic doesn't. A Wizard or Cleric can fuck a setting WAY WAY harder than a Psion could ever hope to do.
>>43596607
It's the difference between fucking the setting and fucking the story.
Psions kill all mystery and twists dead in the cradle.
(proper mind wizards do too, but that's splitting hairs.)
There's blowing apart the encounter and then there's making the entire quest pointless.
>>43597225
What the fuck are you talking about?
Mind Reading for information? Not every Psion is a Telepath or Seer, I really don't see what your talking about.
>>43597467
>Not every Psion is a Telepath or Seer
Telepaths and seers are exactly what I'm talking about.
Yes, I admit that a storm wizard is more disruptive than a pyrokinetic.
Every possible psion won't necessarily bumfuck the story, but any psion could.
Mind powers like that break games worse than anything else.
That's all I was saying.
>>43598308
>Every possible psion won't necessarily bumfuck the story, but any psion could.
That applies to pretty much any casting class, or any class that's isn't shit being played by a crazy fucker. Can you provide me with a specific example. Because in my experience with GM's who hate divination/mindreading it isn't because the ability is broken, it's because they have an issue with railroading.
>Mind powers like that break games worse than anything else.
Not at all. So many fucking monsters are immune to mind affecting attacks its unreal. Shit like Mind Blank is usually on the top brasses "must have immunity" list. If the PC's obtaining a piece of information fucks up the campaign, you might want to re-evaluate the premise.
And those skills aren't unique to Psions, they can probably to them slightly better because Psions make better specialists than generalists(when compared to other casting classes).
>>43598548
>Okay it's quite the mystery we have-
Butler did it
>I want you to fetch this simple-
You are an evil wizard trying to trick us
>Welcome to-
The prince is corrupt and the vizier is behind everything.
Okay I guess you go kill stuff.
Mindtaking breaks stories.
>>43571139
"Depends on the setting"
I'm going to assume you're talking about DnD, as that seems to be the only setting people talk about as if it's the default.
In my setting, "divine magic" is literally just calling in a favor with an aetherial or hellish being to do magic for you. This really only qualifies as a separate type of magic because "magic" is in-setting a catch-all term for going "around" the normal function of nature to make things happen. Serious scholars of arcane subjects would not use the term, like you wouldn't say you were really into "art".
>>43599584
>implying anyone would take anything a PC says at face value
They would still need to be able to prove it
Again
>If a singe piece of information invalidates the entire premise of the quest, the premise is probably fucked to begin with.
>Butler did it
>making your PCs sit through shitty investigation sequences *anyway*
Again, they'd have to prove it. Maybe the butler only thought they did it.
>You are an evil wizard trying to trick us
I guess Sense Motive is bad too. You just have to get fucking creative with your deception instead of the PC's just going with the flow.
>The prince is corrupt and the vizier is behind everything.
Okay, prove it or get the hell out of dodge without getting killed or thrown in prison.
Also a setting with Psions, shit mind control/reading would probably have top brass defending against this shit.
>>43571139
>>43576072
>Furthermore Warlocks confound the issue further by LIKEWISE receiving arcane magic from a greater being directly.
No, faggot. Arcane magic is learned. Wizards grind old grimoires by past masters. Warlocks receive intuitive knowledge via the magic of a lesser demonic being. Sorcerers are born with instinctive knowledge through inhuman ancestry. Clerics are rewarded for "leaps of faith" or prayer with divine intervention.
Based on your proposition of Arcane being pursued and Divine being granted, I would say the limits would also be different.
Arcane being studied and practiced would grant one a deep understanding of risk versus reward. For instance a simple fireball would use low amounts of mana or focus, however one unskilled in intelligence or willpower would use more energy; So the limits are those of the caster. Thus a highly intelligent and strong willed caster has near endless limits, thus can channel devastating magic easily.
Divine magic being based on devotion or having it granted may give someone powerful abilities, but they might not have the understanding of its limits, and so they would not be as proficient with it. Thus some clerics might need to use life energy as a catalyst to close the gap or huge amounts of willpower.
Long story short a master in Arcane practice with a fireball or lightning bolt could be much stronger than a pious cleric with a Divine Retribution type spell, solely based on prowess.
The whole concept of divinely granted magic is idiotic. Deities should not be objectively known to exist and any divine intervention that is clearly and unarguably recognisable as such should be a rare and wondrous miracle.
>>43605691
I like the way the Soul Series handled it. It wasn't belief/worship in the gods, but knowledge and insight into their stories that granted divine power. The closer the original story, the stronger the power.
>>43605713
Another interesting thing in the Souls series was heathens that would just make up stories about the gods and still have the miracles function.
>>43605691
In Dark Souls gods are just very powerful beings that are ruled by the metaphysical ages, while in Demon's Souls God is most likely the Old One, who is the source of all magic, but it's also a power without purpose that just desires to consume.
>>43571139
>Clerics can also forego receiving powers from Gods and rather worship concepts or ideals.
I hate this, 9/10 times it's the easy way out for a cleric that doesn't want to flesh out its character.
If you were to ask me to rewrite D&D canon, I'd do it like this.
The difference between Arcane and Divine/Profane magic would be extremely simple.
>Arcane magic is "of this world", a natural force that exists within the material plane and various other planes
>Divine and Profane magic respectively come from outside of the material plane, granted by powerful celestials, infernals and gods who bless their followers with a portion of their own power, which exists independently of anything else
Assuming this, the distinction between wizards and sorcerers becomes more logical as well. Wizards now actually have something substantial to study while sorcerers are the rare few that simply "luck out" with an innate, instinctual understanding of arcane magic. Of course that understanding isn't perfect from day one, and often it manifests itself in ways that make people think they are cursed, forcing them to improve their understanding of their own talent.
It would also explain the difference between clerics, favored souls and warlocks better. Clerics are the best and most devoted of the religious caste, with not all of the religious caste being clerics in the class sense. A village priest would be completely mundane, but only the most pious would be worthy of their god's blessing. Favored souls would be... well... souls that are favored. The gods simply bless them without any further requirements because they believe in their innate potential. They could, for example, believe that an illiterate peasant girl has greater potential to smite evil than any of the established religious caste. Warlocks get their power from Outsiders rather than gods, regardless of alignment but with evil being the most common. Usually through some sort of pact like selling their souls.
>>43605713
Isn't that just runequest theism?
>>43608591
The power of the gods still seems to be in function even if the gods themselves are dead in Dark Souls.
