What game are you playing now?
Did you know Pathfinder exists?
You should play Pathfinder.
Pathfinder is shit.
>>43567823
What would make me want to run a pathfinder game as opposed to a 5E game or some other format? State your logic!
>>43567823
>You should play Pathfinder.
No, what you should play with is those kobold hips
I just don't think that's very good advice
>>43567836
This. Pathfinder is just a shoddy coat of paint on the broken mess that is 3.5.
Although at least it isn't painfully bland as 5e.
I'd rather have a 1000 Mexicans do the Hat Dance on my testicles than have to play Shitfinder.
>>43567836
Don't think you'd say that if you tried it bro.
>>43567850
It's Pathfinder, gotta trust me on this one.
>>43567880
Na man trust me, I did it myself and one of the best things I've ever done.
>>43567823
Fucking kill yourself, please. For the good of all mankind.
>>43567836
>>43567888
>>43567892
>>43567979
>Everyone shits on pathfinder
>No one suggests an alternative
What do you suggest anon?
>>43567866
>No, what you should play with is those kobold hips
This anon suggested a good one
Obvious bait.
>>43567975
I've played it. Half the party accidentally snapped the game in half, the other half were utterly useless. We were using core rules and core classes. It's a broken piece of shit.
>>43568008
I suggest Pretend.
>>43568022
You don't have to lie to make Pathfinder sound bad.
>>43567975
Trust is never a good basis of quality.
>>43567823
FantasyCraft and Dark Heresy.
Yes.
No thank you. One time playing some wonky pathfinder bash "and surprise! It was warhammer 40k setting all along!" is far too many for a simple spathi such as I.
>>43568008
Every fucking thread. Every fucking thread there's always that one faggot that cries about how no one suggests alternatives like that's any kind of valid counter argument. Hell, this time I'll give you some credit because at least this time there weren't 20 posts before yours suggesting multiple alternatives, like every other time one of you faggots shows up.
You want an alternative? Here's a suggestion:
THERE ARE LITERALLY THOUSANDS OF ROLEPLAYING GAMES ON THE MARKET, EXPAND YOUR HORIZONS AND TRY SOME OUT YOU MOUTHBREATHER.
And don't give me that "I don't have time" bullshit, if you had actually made any attempt to read a different game rather than immediately clinging to what was popular you'd have quickly realized that most games are actually really simple to pick up and don't require anywhere near the time investment shitfinder does.
Daily reminder that every system is shit if you have a shit DM and/or shit players, and every system is playable if the people involved aren't autistic.
That's right faggots. When everyone isn't shit teir even F.A.T.A.L. Is playable and enjoyable
>>43567823
The group of pickups at my last LGS Pen and Paper night had a morbidly obese chick playing the ukulele every time the DM spoke, a guy who had to get up from the table 4 times in 2 hours to smoke, a chick who clutched a MLP plushie the entire session and spent most of the time talking about her 3 anime husbandos, and an autist playing a chaotic evil character who was more interested in a TPK than playing the game.
Oh, and me - who bailed after one session.
So yeah, no one to play with locally.
>>43567823
Pathfinder is an unbalanced mess just like 3.5.
>>43568109
Daily reminder that you're a fucking faggot.
>>43567975
I tried it too.
It was the worst game I've ever played.
>>43568109
Do people still actually try use this as a real defense of badly designed games?
Sure any game can be played but a well designed game takes less work to make enjoyable than a poorly designed one
>>43568109
This is completely true. That does nothing to justify or protect systems from mechanical critique. Every system can be playable, but a good system makes your job easier in that respect, while a bad system makes it harder. FATAL, Pathfinder and Exalted are bad systems, but the latter two still have huge fanbases because people put in the effort and made it work anyway. That doesn't make them good systems, and the most avid fans of the system are probably those who are most aware of their crippling flaws. It doesn't make them unplayable, but it makes them significantly harder and more fiddly to use, requiring significantly more investment.
>>43568103
>THERE ARE LITERALLY THOUSANDS OF ROLEPLAYING GAMES ON THE MARKET, EXPAND YOUR HORIZONS AND TRY SOME OUT YOU MOUTHBREATHER.
Okay, suggest one
I'm being honest here, I don't know that many outside the big ones and there isn't a game shop for miles, the closest thing is an actual book store and their tiny section of D&D and the occasional WoD book
>>43568242
What do you want from a roleplaying game? It's hard to give blind suggestions without any guidelines.
>>43568103
Actually, as someone who agrees that PF is shit I would like to hear an alternative for a sword and sorcery type game.
I've got a group of new players coming and I'd like something recognizable like a fantasy setting without the bullshit of d&d/pathfinder.
Any suggestions?
>>43568242
Dude, you can order books online these days.
>>43568321
Or, y'know, piracy
>>43568294
RuneQuest.
>>43568242
Fine.
13th Age - A D&D clone that actually has an interesting skill system and background system. The General that is up now has a link with everything in it.
Earthdawn - High Fantasy Fallout. It has one of the best magic item systems in any game. Recently was kickstarted and will be getting a new edition.
Legend of the Five Rings - Magical Samurai doing Magical Samurai things, often ending badly. Recently purchased by Fantasy Flight Games so expect a new edition with shitty snowflake dice.
7th Sea - Buckling Swashes in Not!Europe with a similar system to Legend of the Five Rings. Recently re-acquired by its creator so may be getting a new edition.
Mouseguard - You are mice that protect villages of mice from predators like ferrets and snakes, lord help you if Shrikes show up.
>>43568290
Mostly I've found I like them being more on the rules heavy side combatwise but still open to "sure why not?" shenanigans and little to no rules on the RP side outside of measuring sticks for how smart/charismatic your character is
I guess if I had to say anything it's I like crunchy combat but lite rules for most everything else
>forgot a word
>>43568321
Not much use if you only got a vague idea of other systems
And truth be told D&D, WoD, Exalted, and GURPS (which I have grown to hate because of /tg/) are the only ones I really know of
Also buying without being able to skim the book to see if it's the kind of thing you like seems like a waste of money to me
>>43568330
Point, though there's still the "I don't know much of other systems" problem
>>43568365
>>GURPS (which I have grown to hate because of /tg/)
And yet you still like Pathfinder. Curiouser and curiouser.
you could play shadowrun, 40krpg's dungeon world, burning wheel, torchbearer, exalted, WoD, runquest
I'd pick 5th ed over pathfinder for just about any dungeon crawling, magic item collecting, trash fantasy sort of game since I don't really like keeping up with all the character building shit that doesn't really do much for me in any aesthetic sense. I have no idea why you would use pathfinder for other type of game really since character progression is all about killing shit and taking its stuff
>>43568188
FATAL really is just on a different level here. We're talking 13 page character sheets and an endless supply of tables each more terrible than the last
>>43568242
There's usually a few obvious systems for the type of game you want to play, but really most of them have flaws just as significant as pathfinder or DnD or whatever. People just don't really care enough about them to rant about it the same way
>>43568365
>Also buying without being able to skim the book to see if it's the kind of thing you like seems like a waste of money to me
Amazon lets you look inside before you buy. It's not the same as skimming, but it'll give you an idea about mechanics and flavor.
>>43568242
Lasers and Feelings.
GURPS
Savage Worlds
Literally anything.
>>43568391
>Also buying without being able to skim the book to see if it's the kind of thing you like seems like a waste of money to me
What is internet piracy?
>>43568380
>13th Age - A D&D clone that actually has an interesting skill system and background system. The General that is up now has a link with everything in it.
>Earthdawn - High Fantasy Fallout. It has one of the best magic item systems in any game. Recently was kickstarted and will be getting a new edition.
>Mouseguard - You are mice that protect villages of mice from predators like ferrets and snakes, lord help you if Shrikes show up.
Thanks, I'll check them out they actually sound neat
>Legend of the Five Rings
Doesn't that have heavy rules for social combat or whatever? I don't like that too much, or am I thinking of something else?
>>43568410
/tg/ suggests it for EVERYTHING, and honestly there's such a thing as too much crunch
A Low/dark fantasy GURPS campaign
Sure do
Nah. It's okay, and while I can appreciate paizos enthusiasm I think the mechanics are ass. I think that if they weren't so married to hauling around the bloated corpse of 3.5 they could actually have something good on their hands
>>43567823
Fuck you.
I ran Pathfinder for two years and that was enough, it ruined Pathfinder for me. It's a broken-ass game for 3tards who can't fucking let go of their system mastery garbage. Pathfinder almost burned me out on tabletop altogether, that's how fucking bad it is.
>>43568482
It's very true that GURPS gets thrown around a lot, but personally I fancy the combat of GURPS greatly, and was the main draw to the system for me, along with being a generic system. For some tactical fun combat, it's not a bad choice :)
>>43568482
>Social Combat
That's Exalted.
L5R is a low granularity system.
If you like Pathfinder you will probably hate L5R.
>>43567850
>Actual skill system
>Actual choice besides most generic classes with most generic mechanics
>High depth bestiary, lore, and magic system(s)
>Some astounding 3rd party support (DSP)
>Literally thousands of supported concepts with backing mechanics
>Is actually balanced, though people don't understand this at all. The people who say Wizards are OP couldn't make a spell list for level 20 to use on most days. The same people aren't aware of how much stronger a level 4 fighter is than a level 4 wizard.
>Makes GMing easy *so long as you learn the fucking system and employ it*.
>>43568242
>Okay, suggest one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_role-playing_games_by_name
>>43568482
>there's such a thing as too much crunch
Good thing 90% of the rules in GURPS are optional, then.
>>43567823
I am aware Pathfinder exists
I did play it.
It was like D&D3x with a built in dating sim.
If people liked D&D3x but wanted more published adventures with Waifus they should play Pathfinder.
Otherwise, avoid it.
>>43568482
On L5R
You can pretty much ignore the social systems if you don't run a game focused on the courts and even then courtiers tend to have abilities like "Chat up that guy for a few minutes and then make a roll. If you succeed you know if he really wants some sort of favor." Knowing that might be enough for you to leverage a character into doing something you want.
>>43568737
I find it's difficult for people coming from pathfinder to comprehend the idea that you're not meant to use every single rule in a printed book and that they're there for you to mix and match what you like.
>>43568482
I think you might be confusing the world of L5R having a complex social system with the game having some kind of complex social mechanics.
The world has a very deep and complex social, manners, and etiquette system, but the only complex social combat mechanics are an option in a splat book.
I play 2nd Ed because WotC screwed up D&D right after they bought it and they still haven;t fixed a damn thing.
>>43568712
I don't really like how the 3.5/PF skills scale with level, and pretty much every DC ever is kind of bullshit
Why you need different rules for kung-fu archer and soldier archer are beyond me
The bestiary, lore, and magic systems aren't really all that different in the first place. The biggest difference is the amount of books out for them
Isn't DSP the one that just brings in 3.5 stuff with bad art and makes furry books?
That's true for both, only you just need one book for them in 5th
>>43568835
Actually, yeah. One of the best alternatives to PF\D&D honestly is an older, pre-WotC edition of D&D.
They're so different that when people talk about D&D nowadays they don't even think of these editions.
>>43568712
>Is actually balanced
I like how you use
>though people don't understand this at all
to defend this crock of utter horseshit.
>>43568997
Learn to read son.
>>43568865
The DCs in Pathfinder are actually incredibly well balanced.
There's a thing called mechanical gameplay that people enjoy. A class that plays differently even if the concept is similar is fun for a good portion of gamers.
DSP reworks and retunes a ton of 3.5 shit.
5e doesn't have a complete ruleset as of right now. The skills are a joke and advantage is vague. The feats are shallow too.
5e is babies first dnd.
>>43568902
This. I switched from 3.5/PF to Retroclones and haven't looked back.
>>43568109
You can roleplay monopoly and have fun. It doesn't make monopoly and RPG or a good game.
The same applies to 3.pf
>>43569203
You're not using "a good game" in any way that's meaningful about the "game" as a system of rules or material.
You're only talking about "game" as what the people are playing this instance.
tl;dr this observation is just unhelpful
>>43568103
>tfw I want to suggest Savage Worlds in threads like this but virt shilled that game so hard that people think anyone who suggests it is virt
>>43569330
I know the feels...
I like it, but fucking ey....
>>43569203
>roleplay monopoly
>a group of barons gather at a special party, all friends but secretly hate each other
>play it out as betrayals and back stabbing and fortunes turned to sod until only one remains
>>43569059
literally you only need the PHB to play
You sound like you just looked at a character sheet and heard someone complain about 5e without reading the books
>>43569059
Oh hey Virtualoptim, I see you learned to troll without your trip.
>>43567823
Anima, 5e, and Savage Worlds
Yes.
Nope. Never again. I'll admit that the races and some of the classes appeared neat, but the fact that the Tiers actually exist, and that the game mechanics themselves flat out PUNISH you for making one or two bad choices, turned me off completely.
I'd rather play any of the games I'm in now, Only War, UESRPG, Cat, Risus, Lasers and Feelings, 2/3 of the homebrews I've been in, Hero Basic, or IKRPG than PF.
I'm playing 3.5
Yes I know about pathfinder
I would like to play pathfinder but the group I'm with says everything about pathfinder is broken and overpowered, but that's none of my business
>>43569443
It's not "people can't ever play a game".
It's "the rules of this game are so wildly unfinished that each table will not be playing the same game by any means of imagination.
>>43570015
>the rules of this game are so wildly unfinished
PHB, DMG, MM. Core rules done.
>>43570015
What the hell are you talking about?
The three core books are all out.
>>43569970
Interesting.
What material is your group restricted to when you build characters?
>>43567823
>You should play Pathfinder
if you think 3.5 min/maxing was fun but just had a little bit too much material?
>you should try pathfinder
do you love munchkin murder hobos, but hate managing your multiclasses?
>you should try pathfinder
do you think forgotten realms was fun but could use a blatant reskin?
>you should try pathfinder
That said, I play pathfinder on mondays for the above reasons
>>43569330
I tried it once, but nothing about it really won me over compared to any other generic system.
>>43567823
>What game are you playing now?
Ryuutama
>Did you know Pathfinder exists?
Yep
>You should play Pathfinder.
The above statement is false.
>>43567823
>Pathfinder
>virtualoptim's second favorite system, just behind FATAL
Yeah, nah. I'll pass. Though thank you for reminding me to convince my group to try out Ironclaw or Barbarians of Lemuria
>>43570098
Everything except dragon magazine, elemental and racial variants of races as well races of dragon, so we have ALOT to choose from
>>43570229
>Everything except dragon magazine, elemental and racial variants of races as well races of dragon
And your group thinks pathfinder is broken?
>>43570105
Is there actually less official PF material than 3.5 at this point? If there isn't I imagine it must at least be close
>>43570262
They sure do, man the looks on their faces when I made a sorcerer at level 11 when I joined their group
>>43569970
To be fair, your group is technically right, they are just ignorant about the fact that it's basically the same thing as 3.5.
>>43567888
I have had way more fun with 5ed than I have had with Pathfinder.
>It's bland
It's fucking D&D. Everyone else is ripping off D&D so hard that it only seems bland.
The very concept of a party of adventures setting out on a quest to slay goblins and shit, save the realm from an impending disaster, and such like that. D&D started all of that shit as a tabletop game.
D&D monsters show up in all kinds of other RPG games, the world is copied and pasted with slight tweaks, and people look at the source and think 'God damn, this thing is bland.'
Its the original. You are just familiar with it is all.
>>43570481
I suppose but they swear 3.5 is vastly superior to pathfinder
>>43570577
Eh, a few month ago I would have agreed if only for Tome and the sheer variety of options.
But now Dreamscarred Press and Drop Dead Studios are a thing so that no longer holds sway over me.
>>43567823
I know very well about pathfinder... Never again.
3.x and its successors are actually the only games I will never ever play again... or touch them with a 10 foot pole.
There are so many other RPGs I would rather play. Listed in no specific order:
* Every other edition of D&D: 5E, 4E, AD&D, etc.
* Legend of the Five Rings
* Unknown Armies
* Fudge
* HERO
* GURPS
* The Dark Eye
* Marvel Heroic Roleplaying
* Nobilis
* Earthdawn
* SLA Industries
* Shadowrun
* Maid
And there are even RPGs, I don't like but would still prefer over Pathfinder. Also listed in no specific order:
* World of Darkness
* Savage Worlds
* Every RPG produced by FFG (They make great board games however)
* FATAL
And these are just the ones from the top of my head. I have played much more, not to mention the endless home brew systems.
>>43567823
Kobolds? Kobolds. Filename related.
>>43567823
It's alright, rather play D&D 5e at the minute however.
>>43570015
The same could be said of any game, regardless of the state of completion of the rules.
>>43571158
Post more then
I'm aware that Pathfinder isnt the best system ever but I also feel like people who have this passionate hate-boner for it are just on some /tg/ bandwagon.
These people have not or barelly played the game and are just being cool guys by hating things that are popular.
>>43575042
>pathfinder
>popular
Only in America.
>>43575062
>This level of hate-fueled delusion
>>43575042
We played Pathfinder for several years, in my group. We eventually shied away from it because Paizo kept releasing things of such vastly varying quality. Some classes and feats would be amazing, some would be shit, some would be broke as hell, and it was becoming too much trouble to go "things 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, and 9 aren't allowed, 4 and 7 you can't take till this level for balance issues, etc." Even playing Core only left a wide disparity of party ability.
It's not bad, but it's certainly not good. We eventually just moved on to other games. One guy runs Savage Worlds, one guy runs World of Darkness, and I'm currently working on a Numenera game and everyone is psyched for it. We still play Pathfinder, but mostly for one-shots, or if nobody feels like writing we'll kill some weeks with an Adventure Path (though even they're getting ridiculous).
>>43567823
Tried it after 3.X, prefer FC and 5E when I want something of that vein.
Mostly playhaving a jobandno time to gamethese days.
I am playing more often than ever before since all of my bros have full time jobs with set off days.
Back when we all had varying time off it was a total bitch to get a group running.
Going on almost two years with a steady group meeting once a week for 3 hours of gaming now.
More and more people keep joining up. Took another one of my off days and decided to just start running random tabletop games at a local mall that is basically dead. The only rule being everyone attending must by something from the chinese joint at the food court so we are paying customers so the mall owner can't kick us out.
>80 people a week on average now
>People bringing a plethora of games to play
>More folks showing up each week
>Resurgence in board/card game popularity with people who never played anything outside of Monopoly wanting to throw down with Descent 2nd edition and Star Wars Imperial Assault
The people who attend are spreading the games around with others on their different days off now too. The only thing missing here is a LGS. The closest gaming store is 2+ hours away and they just run magic tournaments.
>>43567823
Pathfinder is indeed shit. It honestly makes the mess of rules that is 3.5 even worse with a lot of just straight up pointless shit.
D&D/Pathfinder are mad overrated rules wise. They give some excellent fluff to work with however. Only worth playing OD&D and 4e for if you wanna run something more tactics based (really cool if you wanna run Fire Emblem/or MMO style game or if you want a tinge of wargaming in your PnP).
Ever since I moved on to FATE and Savage Worlds PnP has been so much more fun. No unnecessarily complex rules, yet there are a set of rules made for things to always remain interesting without OP builds and allow things to be more freeform. Only Shadowrun honestly pulls of the "we have very specific rules for every single thing" and even then I would honestly just use the setting with Savage World rules.
>>43567823
No fuck you, there's a person in my playgroup that tries to adapt everything to fucking pathfinder. Right now he's in the middle of learning gurps so he can convert a fallout gurps campaign into pathfinder
>>43567823
Well, I'm already playing BestD&D, why would I play his retarded uncle ?
>>43576293
Why the fuck would you want to convert fallout anything let alone gurps to pathfinder?
>>43576104
I mean, the fact that you even still play it tells me that you're not on of these hate-boner bandwagoners. I have my own problems with the system, I just feel like there's a lot of baseless bile-spewing about the system as well.
I also feel like the balance issues are outliers. They come up when players either dont know the system well enough, resulting in poor builds or know it too well and are activelly looking for ways to break the game. These problems are to be expected in a system that gives you so many options.
>>43567823
This is bait, right?
I played Pathfinder all of twice. It was no better than 3.5. I've played better games that are far older than it, and better games that are younger than it, and have no real desire to revisit the broken mess of 3.PF that dominated RPG's for so long. Frankly the OGL was a fucking cancer on the gaming industry, and it ate much more promising gaming systems.
>>43577712
See, this I find hard to believe. I cant imagine anybody playing only two sessions of PF and come away from it calling it a broken mess.
What actually happened to make you say this?
![200_s[1].gif](https://i.imgur.com/Nd6sHCN.gif "200_s[1].gif")
>>43567823
Are you trying to trick me, OP?
This thread is officially "Everybody hates pathfinder"
>>43567823
Broken spine. Never unsee it.
>>43578054
Ouch.
Well, maybe kobolds have weird spines? They are reptiles, after all
What game are you playing now?
Did you know FATAL exists?
You should play FATAL.
>>43567823
"DnD 3.5 But Better" is still DnD.
Have you tried not playing DnD?
>not playing 13th Age
What are you, gay AND retarded?
>>43577644
I disagree. They've come up just with someone generally good at games (video or tabletop) seeing that one option is objectively better than another.
We literally only play it because there's a plethora of modules and APs that keep us from having to plan anything beyond who's bringing food.
>>43576900
>hateboner bandwagoners
Nobody has to like what's objectively shit, anon.
>>43567823
>Changeling
>Ye
>Nu
>>43577960
>It was no better than 3.5.
There you go.
>>43579845
If you're familiar with 3.5 it doesn't take long for the problems with pathfinder to become apparent.
>>43567823
>What game are you playing now?
Dark Heresy.
>Did you know Pathfinder exists?
Yes, I also play that.
>You should play Pathfinder.
I actually despise Pathfinder's mechanics and only play it so I can be a cute elf grill.
Just finished a Mutant Chronicles "campaign" made by like five-six sessions. it was weak as shit, but its still an achievement for my group to play the same thing for that long
yes
I would if my fellow players didn't find every system too difficult or the regular DM was able to correctly read a set of rules at least
me= referee
other two= DM and another player that read shit oline or watch movies while playing
Has no one else Suggestions?
>>43580732
Dungeon World, 13th Age, Legend, WFRP 2e, low-tech GURPs, FX system low-tech Alternity, Iron Kingdoms, Earthdawn, D&D 4e and D&D 5e are all better alternatives in the same genre.
>>43578621
And I think that kind of min-maxing mindset leads to less fun games in any system. Though I'll conceed to this being easier in a game like Pathfinder that has a lot of options.
And I still say you cant hate it THAT much if you keep playing it. Despite its problems, to you its clearly still playable and all the hate it gets it unwarrented. Your own behavior supports this.
>>43580978
>FX system low-tech Alternity
Is Alternity not science fiction?
>>43578867
>>43576900
More like a megaboner for pathfinder; he does this shit with everything that isn't pathfinder.
>>43581152
>Is Alternity not science fiction?
Alternity at it's base is Fusion Age, but it has it's tech levels separated out so you can run Information age MiB stories, or Weird West, or medieval swords and sorcery with it if you so chose. For Swords and Sorcery you'll need to either use the FX splatbook for magic or the Psionics splatbook to simulate magic.
>>43580732
Cinematic Unisystem, The Dark Eye, Shadowrun 2e-4e, Open D6.
>>43581431
Sounds interesting. Could you give links to the Sourcebooks?
>>43581755
Have some scribd links:
>Psionics:
>http://www.scribd.com/doc/86666822/Alternity-Core-Mind-Walking-A-Guide-to-Psionics#scribd
>FX:
>http://www.scribd.com/doc/255832144/Alternity-Core-Beyond-Science-A-Guide-to-FX#scribd
>>43568332
>>43568380
>>43568411
>>43568470
>>43571138
>>43578593
>>43580978
>>43581530
Do any of these bullshit systems even have half character options Pathfinder does?
Non Swords and Sorcery systems need not apply.
>>43581971
Some do, some don't. If you actually only count the worthwhile options, pathfinder is kinda not even that good. 4e has it handily beaten, if that's what you are looking for, and I'm pretty sure the point buy systems have it matched at least.
>>43581971
Well considering 90% of the options in Shitfinder are traps and make for crappy characters many have more than it does.
>>43581971
>half the character options of pathfinder
It's more Pathfinder may half half the functional character options these do right out of the core books; and they're all functional and don't need tweaking to fix (barring Dungeon World and anything from FFG, ofc. Those two would be the low end of the list).
>>43581971
>Do any of these bullshit systems even have half character options Pathfinder does?
As if this was a good thing. Pathfinder dumps a billion options on you, most of which are useless drek, and some of which are obviously far and away better than others. It has the same Ivory Tower bullshit baked into it that 3.5 has. More options doesn't mean better. More options means more options, and more investment needed to try and be familiar with the system.
That's great from a company perspective because it makes your system monolithic and your players afraid to leave because they have spent so much money and time learning your system that they don't want to waste that investment. At the same time it makes for an astoundingly shitty game from a player's perspective.
>>43567823
I don't play games, I play the orchestra.Forever DM
>>43582152
It mostly sucks for GMs in my experience. Also it makes more books to sell
>>43582152
you sir, deserve a cookie.
>>43582195
And for new players. And for players that are not min/maxers. And for players that actually want to roleplay.
>>43582152
>More options doesn't mean better. More options means more options, and more investment needed to try and be familiar with the system
Only if the mechanics are different and each option has "special rules". Open an unisystem book and you will have a fuckton of options as well, and they'll all work on the same set of mechanics, which makes things immensely easy and character development fairly quick and painless. You can have a wealth of options and still keep things simple. Failure to do so is just shitty devs.
>>43582130
>>43582147
>>43582152
Nice hyperbole on those viable options.
I guess its easy to make a more tightly run game when you only have 15% the content to manage.
>>43582334
implying 3.PF is anything even close to "tightly run"
>>43582334
Yes.
That's the point.
Nobody forced the devs to have 85% of the options. They choose to add those options without making sure they are actually worthwhile.Also, only using CRB (you know, that's like, 5% of the total options existing), you STILL RUN INTO TRAP OPTIONS MORE THAN HALF THE TIME. The game is shit no matter how little you go.
>>43582334
>point buy has less options than class based schlock
Please tell me this is bait.
>>43581971
>does GURPS have character options
>>43567823
Shut the fuck up you shill
>>43567823
>Pathfinder
>Shadowrun
>FFG Star Wars
>L5R
>VtR
Having some games alternate weeks gives an almost distressingly broad set of different settings and rules when I actually lay it out
>>43582380
But again, that's stupid hyperbole. There's nowhere near that many "trap options".
Better and worse options as well as exploits are a part of any system that has anything like a class system. Just because not everything is an end-all "Tier 1" solution doesnt make it useless.
>>43582630
>etter and worse options as well as exploits are a part of any system that has anything like a class system
No, it's not.
>>43582630
>>43582692
What he said. Just because Paizo and FFG are incapable of making a decent game doesn't mean no one else is.
>>43582692
>>43582718
>Nu-uh!
Sick argumentation, brah.
>>43570495
I think he meant more the options, not the system itself.
Multiclassing is severely limited because it negatively impacts a class more often than not; there's only the PHB and a few APs for spells; there aren't a whole lot of classes, and while archetypes are cool they don't add a whole lot to the classes -- or at least not as much as a whole new class would.
Pathfinder has a slew of options, so yes, it's less "bland" than 5e... but it's also a much more terrible game.
Just like any system, 5e can be interesting and can provide for a good campaign. But the edition itself is very bland indeed.
>>43582777
You have enough listed suggestions. No further 'argumentation' is needed.
>>43567823
>over-complicated ruleset
>generic medieval fantasy
No thanks. I'm running 7th Sea for the swashbuckling fix, and dealing with a party who insist that slave-trading shouldn't be classed as villainous in the context of the 17th century.
>>43582630
Make a core dex swashbuckler kinda guy that doesn't suck utter donkey balls compared to anything else and we'll talk.
>>43567823
>Playing Pathfinder
>Any year
Why would anyone ever do this?
>>43567823
Call me back when Pathfinder can run a sci-fi space adventure without being garbage
>>43582956
Why is Soldier so great?
>>43581971
> Baiting this hard
I hate you because I know people who think like this
8/10
>>43567823
Y not GURPS?If you're dedicated enough
>>43583738
>GURPS
>dedicated
The core rules only take 32 pages.
>>43567823
Tell you what, I'll give Pathfinder a try if I can find a game.
>>43567823
Whatever faults there may be in Pathfinder... and I know there are many faults... it was my first system.
Pathfinder introduced me to TTRPGs, and for that I will always be grateful, and be just a little biased towards it.
>>43581971
40krpg and sr have more.
>>43581971
GURPS and HERO are universal settings which also allow you to play Sword and Sorcery.
Also you should probably learn German because all the good stuff from The Dark Eye never got translated into English.
All systems named have way more character options than Pathfinder.
Also you should educate yourself a bit on your hobby. GURPS, DnD and WoD are more or less required readings when you want to contribute anything useful to /tg/ in terms of RPGs.
>>43581971
I cant say i've dedicated the same amount of time as i have with pathfinder. But i have played some of those games and honestly if you got a bunch of people focusing on one system they would probably start calling it shit after while. But I will say Gurps definitely has more character options if you consider everything only problem is that a good percentage of that is just re-flavoring. Which a valid option you could do a lot with those other systems to make it feel like theirs more variety.
But one thing i will say if you wont take certain feats or archetypes in pathfinder that you like just because they are the inferior option then you really have other problems. You really shouldn't be trying to compete with other players or the DM, just build the characters you want and if the DM cares about his game he will scale the difficulty appropriately. And not just kill you because you didn't optimize.
>>43586970
holy shit you are lying out of your ass or never played some of those systems if you claim that they have way more character options than pathfinder.
>>43568294
>>43568242
FantasyCraft.
>weapons feel extremely varied
>most interesting action economy I've ever used
>custom fucking races
My favourite three aspects, but the mechanics are just overall extremely juicy.
>>43587917
Oh your were just trolling? Sorry, I took you serious.
>>43568391
>GURPS (which I have grown to hate because of /tg/)
Are you kidding? Objecting to a system being suggested a lot because its good at lots of things is stupid.
I assume everyone here who does play it ignores the full retard direction the developers have gone with the morality of deities?
>high-magic
>>43586970
>Non dedicated Swords and Sorcery games havig as much content as Pathfinder
I'm pirating that shit and investigating your lies right now.
>>43589414
...you'll find WoD, DnD, the Dark Eye and GURPS have your precious pathfinder beat rather easily.
I hope your German's -really- good.
>>43589964
I havnt started reading yet, but GURPS seems to have all of 80 pages worth of fantasy stuff. I'm preemptivelly calling you a lying retard.
>>43590340
You do realize that gurps has sourcebooks that expand upon specific types of games?
>>43569330
>>43569395
>>43570164
SHUT UP, VIRT
>>43590399
But doesnt that mean it would generally be less expansive on all those specific types than a system that focuses on playing that specific type? It sure looks like that from just seeing the amount of material.
>>43590340
Its a point buy system, it has far more 'character options' than a classy based game by default.
I play PF because of HeroLab. I won't change to any other system that doesn't give me the ease of use/editing tools that HeroLab gives me. Also, I do my own work to balance it. Just don't use some of the math heavy parts you don't like and make the rules you want tailored to your own group.
>>43571705
It can be said that people will houserule anything, but it can't be said about Pathfinder that it's *necessary to houserule to be playable* to the same extent as 5e.
5e's stealth system is just "and you're hiding I guess". It's advantage system doesn't differentiate from "enemy is distracted" and "enemy is blind deaf and immobile", nor even from "Jim bought the pizza".
There's been countless threads on how the wordings of cone shaped spells cause them to be nonfunctional unless you ignore the rules and use your "common sense" which varies by table.
The game isn't blatantly *functional* with just the rules, to the extent that every table functions differently and expectations vary wildly.
The rogue is absolutely hands down one of the strongest melee classes if the GM is liberal with advantage and glosses over stealth. But in a game where it's played by the book (the nonexistent book of stealth) the rogue is worthless because they can't be assured a sneak attack... nearly ever.
>>43591799
...a rogue gets a sneak attack if any hostile is standing next to your target. It doesn't even have to be your ally, it just has to be hostile to the target.
Stop talking out of your asshole. It's rare they DON'T get SA.
>>43569330
You're not alone. I love SW, it's my favorite system, but it hurts me just to say that because I'm afraid that secretly I was Virt all along.
>>43591799
That's ridiculous: it's incredibly easy to get sneak attack. Also, this is an apples to oranges comparison: a few weird glitches that people have to iron-out is way different than 3.5/PF where you literally need a new set of martial classes for the power/advancement curve not to be totally broken.
>>43591896
>Try to take out one guard
>Crawl forward with silence spell and invisibility
>Don't get sneak attack
>He lives
>Calls for help
Living the dream?
>>43591979
Says someone who never actually optimized a PF Fighter in their life. That or you're just absolute shit at it.
Powerbalance =/= non-existent mechanical resolution
>>43591997
>Be swashbuckler subclass
>Walking up to the guy and greet him friendly
>Being the only one standing next to him
>Draw my weapon and sneak attack him
>Get direction from our telepath where the next guard is
>Rinse and repeat
It seriously isn't that hard. Your DM might be the problem here.
>>43592123
>guys if you pull hacks from 5 different sourcebooks you can make a Fighter who is 2 tiers lower than a Core Druid this system is totally not shit, I swear.
>>43592138
>Your DM might be the problem here
Thank you for making the point for me.
>>43592157
You've never optimized a PF Fighter, confirmed. You've probably never even played PF.
With Paizo only shit you can make a Fighter with far better combat ability than a caster and comparable (but lesser, because the game is actually balanced) utility.
>>43592189
>comparable utility
No you can't. Casters will always outstrip martials, even with PoW.
>>43592205
Confirmed.
>>43592214
You're just in denial. Show me a Paizo-only martial build that hits tier 1.
>>43581971
>Do any of these bullshit systems even have half character options Pathfinder does?
>>43592234
>Tier system
>This class can theoretically beat any challenge so long as it prepares the spells with complete foreknowledge of the challenge that are made for the challenge!
Tier system only looks at class abilities for this. It's a judge of utility from class abilities, before items, feats, and often skills.
Tier system is next to meaningless when you count in magic items, and I bet you don't even know how to transform feats into utility.
>>43592295
>GURPS Asparagus
every time
3.5 was my first system.
Pathfinder was my second.
So it is safe to assume I have a bias towards those systems and will never drop them. Yet this is wrong, completely. I have my own share of nostalgia and all, but not in this regard. 3.Anything is so fucking broken - even with limited experience in gaming you'll feel how horrible it is. I'm not even talking about balance issues (and those also stretch through the whole system, not just classes), you can basically sum up it like this - one half of rules is incredibly vague, the other half is needlessly strict, and on top of that they all in conflict with each-other.
Of course, you can houserule it, and I did. But every time I tried - I always found myself struggling with such huge amount of fixing that it was easier to strip everything away down to d20.
>>43592158
However if the DM is the problem, it does not matter what system you are using.
During one pathfinder encounter the monster we faced was immune to crits, sneak attacks and magic. Yes, magic! All of it.
The wizard, the cleric and the rogue were pretty useless during this fight.
This can always happen, if your DM is the problem
>>43592234
Show me a wizard that can reach DIE HARD tier :^)
Tiers:
DIE HARD: Has full BAB
DUDE: Medium BAB
FAGGOT: Half BAB
The tier list is biased towards wizards.
>>43592303
That's because there is no combination of feats that makes a fighter as good as a wizard. Either find a sample build, or admit that your system is broken.
>>43592295
Not to mention that a good chunk of the 3rd Edition is compatible with the 4th Edition without putting any thought into it.
>>43592339
DM going outside the rules and homebrewing content that denies you ability =/= DM making decisions completely within the rules that deny you ability
Pathfinder teaches you how to make balanced monsters; 5e doesn't teach you to sneak attack
>>43592358
>Either use my tier system or admit that you can't make something effective! Only my tier system counts!
>>43592348
>>43592395
>Damage-controlling this hard
Even the guys who update the system acknowledge tiers.
>>43577960
Not him, but I made a finesse fighter and got outclassed by the Druid's animal companion, only exacerbated by that animal companion having a Druid with him.
Aside from balance issues though, the system is also a convoluted mess rules-wise. It might have fixed some of the bigger problems of 3.5 like graplling and skills, but it broke just as much in the process.
Oh boy, I know this is a bait thread, but holy god damn nothing makes me madder than fucking Pathfinder. It's the type of game that's popular because it's popular. It's the only one you'll see in store besides D&D so it gets the most exposure and the marketing tricks newfags into thinking that you need to buy all of their expensive books for classes, races, monsters, adventures and other crap and it's written so poorly that it takes hours upon hours to figure out and by the time you realize you've blown 100s of dollars on a broken game you don't want to switch systems because of the sunk cost fallacy and fear that you'll have to make the same investment for anything else. I saw it happen to my own group. Pathfinder isn't just shit, it's a fucking scam.
>>43590340
Uhuh. GURPS kills Pathfinder in 80 pages. Wow. How shit is Pathfinder?
>>43592429
The tiers are an accurate model of utility, but it's a model that only focuses on class-based utility and thus ignores 90% of the game. Tiers are also incredibly vague in what the "average caster" is capable of versus the "average fighter", and people don't even bother looking into what the optimized fighter can do; instead looking solely at the optimized wizard.
The language of the community defines it as a problem, but "caster supremacy" isn't a real problem in Pathfinder.
>>43591997
Your DM is flat out fucking you. That is not the fault of the system, that is the fault of your shitty DM. Fuck right off.
>>43592646
Everyone point and laugh at this stupid faggot.
>>43592679
"I don't give advantage for tiny things, it's a whole reroll!"
>>43592646
This is essentially saying that the Pathfinder community doesn't understand its own game, so either they're all retards, or it is in fact an unfixable problem.
>>43592709
Your DM is flat out fucking you. Tell him to get his head out of his ass, or get another DM. This is in no way the game's fault, it goes into length that Advantage shouldn't be super hard to get.
>>43591997
My favorite post so far. Are you trolling? All you need to sneak attack is advantage.
If you're invisible in D&D 5th pg 291:
"Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage."
That's true even if they can hear you.
>>43592800
Oh, and if you have silence on you? They literally can't call for help, because it's an area of effect centered on you, you stupid faggot.
>>43592756
The vast majority of the Pathfinder community are retards though. Most Pathfinder players can't even hold the core rules in mind.
You know why paizo hasn't significantly nerfed casters? Because at any level of optimization, where all the players have similar system mastery, they aren't a problem.
They nerf things like the "one hit any encounter from teleport" monk, and the "I remove the most common method of harming me" Crane user because those are actively more powerful than a caster.
Meanwhile you have huge swathes of the community that believe things like two handing barbarians and deadly agility are "broken".
And all of the people (the vocal minority) who talk on forums whining about caster supremacy are those without an inkling of what the casters are truly capable of in a real game and not white-room bullshit, and ALL of them are raised on a language that rates wizards as "tier 1" which translates to their little subhuman heads not as "has a large amount of in-built utility" but as "NUMERO UNO HUEHUEHUE DA BES".
And people fall for the groupthink, and never actually learn the system.
>>43592892
>You can grapple, sneak attack, and move all in one turn! That guard can't run away now :^)
>>43567823
I prefer sci-fi, actually. Pathfinder wouldn't suit what I want.
>>43592892
Wait... are you calling me a faggot, or the guy who made the post I was responding to?
>>43592974
>they aren't a problem.
They can be, for the DM, whom without some serious fiat, can not stop them from their worst abuses.
Tiers are not made on pvp, but what they are capable of in actual play against the world.
Paizo hasn't nerfed casters because it would require a ground up system rewrite and casting off the OGL as it is written, and that would lose them money from the people who just want more 3.5.
>>43567823
>What game are you playing now?
Fantasy Craft
>Did you know Pathfinder exists?
Yes
>You should play Pathfinder.
Not my thing.
>>43593035
Only for a DM who plays a setting in which magic like wizards exists, and scrolls exists, and then plays none of his setting with that in mind.
Ergo, a shit DM who doesn't know why he's playing Pathfinder when any system could be better for the low-magic he's actually envisioning.
If you, as a GM, don't have Protection from X *everywhere* in your setting but especially on major shakers and movers, you don't understand the game's intent as a mid-high magic fantasy system.
>>43592380
You can always build such a monster and it is within the rules. Nobody is forcing the DM to use the stat blocks from the Monster Manual. The DM can literally make shit up, what the monster can or can't do and it is absolutely within the rules of the system. Also the whole stuff came from 3.x where Pathfinder is supposedly compatible with and was build very strict following the monster creation rules.
To you advantage problem.
Yes, your DM is extremely stingy about Advantage and probably didn't read the DMG section about RAW, RAI and RAF, since you are clearly not having fun with the whole stuff.
A few possibilities to to avoid future frustration:
>Be a swashbuckler: This allows you to sneak attack a guy next to you without advantage.
>Use inspiration for instant advantage. Ask your DM how to gain inspiration and act accordingly to always have inspiration when needed.
>Always follow the fighter around and attack the guy next to him for sneak attack. If you have a beast ranger even better because you basically have a perfect sneak attack buddy around. Plus the Ranger can sneak so it is probably easier to do covert operations better.
>>43593083
Do the rulebooks make explicitly clear what kind of genre the system is designed for, as well as giving clear instructions on how to enforce it? If not, the system and/or it's designers are also to blame if a GM misuses it.
>>43593011
The guy you responded to. That coulda been clearer, I admit. Here, have this in payment.
Was meant to be adding on to your statement, hammering the faggot down.
>>43592980
Strawman. You can, however, sneak attack, move, and DASH. So you can keep up with little problems.
>>43593083
There comes a point where having to warp a world to protect it from the capacity of a single player/players tells of a problem on it's own.
It still doesn't deal with the small people, the nuts and bolts of a setting, that, realistically within most settings themselves, will not be gallivanting about with 24/7 protection spells in case a player decides to exercise the power the game freely gives them by dint of their class choice, just as they wouldn't have high defenses/hp should the barbarian decide he wants to murder an entire town.
Even in a custom setting, it still shows there is a definite problem if you must take such lengths to stymie a player. Worse, now, you are making the game about the wizard and your efforts to stop him, not the group, in a cooperative game.
>>43593011
Calling someone a faggot is like saying 'hello' on 4chan.
Except for OP obviously... The most people mean it.
>>43593126
Well, you can look at many of the published settings and infer the nature of the idea behind it fairly easily.
Golarion is extremely kitchen sink.
FR is a Cold War setting with magic replacing tech and high level casters replacing nukes.
Eberron is pre-WW2.
Dark Sun is post apoc.
>>43593126
>Adventure Awaits!
"Welcome to a world where noble warriors battle mighty dragons and powerful wizards explore long-forgotten tombs. This is a world of fantasy, populated by mysterious elves and savage orcs, wise dwarves and wily gnomes. In this game, your character can become a master swordsman who has never lost a duel, or a skilled thief capable of stealing the crown from atop the king’s head. You can play a pious cleric wielding the power of the gods, or unravel the mysteries of magic as an enigmatic sorcerer. The world is here for you to explore, and your actions will have a profound influence in shaping its history. Who will rescue the king from the clutches of a powerful vampire? Who will thwart the vengeful giants who have come from the mountains to enslave the common folk? These stories wait for your character to take center stage. With this rulebook, a few friends, and a handful of dice, you can begin your epic quest."
Spoonfeeding anons left and right today
>>43593292
>>43593126
>Clear instructions on how to enforce it
Literally in the first book. They encourage you to give magic, give limits of what magic the players should have, even give you a "THIS IS THE AMOUNT OF MAGIC GEAR EVERY FUCKING PARTY MEMBER SHOULD HAVE AT X LEVEL. THE GAME IS BALANCED AROUND THIS SHIT."
But like said above, half Pathfinder players are groupthink retards that don't read the book.
>>43593283
>>43593292
It was a general statement applying to any game system, not specifically an attack on d20 systems. My apologies for being unclear.
>>43567823
>What game are you playing now?
DnD 5e
>Did you know Pathfinder exists?
Yes, I've played it before.
>You should play Pathfinder.
No thanks.
>>43593353
And yet they build in tools for Caster classes to bypass those same rules via self-crafting.
Utter. Genius.
>>43567823
I played it once. It was... Okay? Not actively bad, definitely fixed a lot of what was wrong with baseline DnD but it was the same kind of boring minis game. Just a slightly smoother-edged one, I guess.
>>43592974
They haven't nerfed magic because it would be a fundamentally different game, but just because there's a demand for a game that doesn't negate underlying balance issues.
>>43568109
This is true, however, I'd like to say that Pathfinder has a ton of shit to wallow through before you can find a good group. I have met some of the most insufferable fucking people playing that game and I've only just now found a group that I actually enjoy playing with.
>>43568391
>Mostly I've found I like them being more on the rules heavy side combatwise but still open to "sure why not?" shenanigans and little to no rules on the RP side outside of measuring sticks for how smart/charismatic your character is
I wouldn't normally suggest this to a 3.X fan, but D&D 4th edition. Its combat works very differently to Pathfinder and that sort of game, but nonetheless there's good class balance and a strong focus on tactical combat. Utility spells from 3.X and Pathfinder have been turned into Rituals that certain classes have access to, and classes all have powers that are effectively spells they can use a varying number of times per day - At-Will powers can be used infinitely, Encounter powers once per short rest and Daily powers once per long rest. Roleplay, meanwhile, is pretty much just left to roleplay.
>>43592569
That or you're just biased and retarded.
All Pathfinder Hater which can not make any reasonable criticism are chickens.
>>43593292
>or a skilled thief capable of stealing the crown from atop the king’s head.
...but can you actually do that, tho? I feel like that'd be really hard.
>>43594917
Taking it is easy. Doing it without being noticed is hard.
Or you could just play a caster and Charm him into letting you borrow it
>>43568008
I suggest you stop having shit taste.
If you want swords and sorcery pathfinder is the best bet, you cannot find a better FREE game system that happen to have a FREE system reference document page dedicated to it.
It also has that charm to it, trap options and shit classes is part of that charm
>>43595053
Subtle. I like it.The FATE hack for Pathshit is better than Pathshit is.
http://www.killershrike.com/Fate/Fae/Pathfinder/PathfinderFateAccelerated.aspx
>>43595053
>shitty game design is charming
And what is it with you idiots, Pathfinder is not sword and sorcery. This game is a high magic mess, nothing like Conan or similar works.
>>43595053
Everything is FREE if you just have even a slight bit of skill with the internet.
>>43569330
wait what? I swear it sounds like you're trolling me, as far as I knew he was the one to spam any *world thread to death.
>>43593421
"Crafting feats should not surpass 150% of base WBL."
"No character should have an item worth more than 50% of their total wealth"
>>43598762
And that's still 50% more then others, you stupid fuck.
>>43599656
>>43598762
Also, what do you sat when they go over? I'm sorry, your crafting doesn't seem to work? A horde of orks runs through while you're sleeping and ruins your progress? The god of crafting smites you for making him look bad?
>>43600063
Where are they getting all that money from?
>>43600134
And downtime.
>>43600134
I don't know. How is the class that can Fabricate a Wall of Iron into weapons supposed to make money? Charge money to cast spells for people? Sell the magic items he's crafted for profit?
Its a mystery.
>>43567823
No thanks, I enjoy playing Savage Worlds.
>>43600063
"Your feat doesn't work anymore."
Or if you want an easy fluff reason:
"You're not powerful enough to sustain magic items in your vicinity of this value."
>>43567836
Mmm... it's more like Fertilizer.
To me, Pathfinder is like "Okay: I know this was, at one time, shit. But now I have a lot of it, piled up around the yard and such, it seems to stimulate the growth of my garden. And while, on a personal level, I don't much like the taste, or smell of it... using it gives me returns I don't see from other tortured metaphors."
>>43593366
This Basketball-American gets it.
>>43568782
>I find it's difficult for people coming from pathfinder to comprehend the idea that you're not meant to use every single rule in a printed book and that they're there for you to mix and match what you like.
As a fan of BRP I would find it really useful if GURPS had a checklist like BRP does.
>>43600198
What kind of shitty campaigns are you running where players have that kind of downtime?
>>43588554
why does her hair twitch like that?
o.o
>>43600813
I'm pretty sure there are fan made checklists.
>>43600684
To continue the metaphor. Pathfinder is shit. It might be useful to make fertilizer, but it's going to take more effort to get the results you want.
Compared to that, some games are fertilizer, and some are potted plants. Much less work involved to make it actually good.
>Guaranteed Replies: The Thread
I grew up with 3E and 3.5. Pathfinder was the closest thing to a breath of fresh air me and my Threeaboo friends could accept into our dark and dreary lives. I was like, "Shit, why even bother with any other system? It's got rules out the ass!"
At the beginning, it was fine. Our understanding of the system was so pathetic that half of anything we did was made up on the spot. The DM didn't know it. We didn't know it. And what did it matter? We were having fun! A dude attached shield spikes to an armored codpiece and face-humped people to death. It was great fun for everyone (except the NPCs that got crotch-face-spiked). Gradually, though, as our understanding of the system grew, it became less about fucking shit up with d20s and more about how many modifiers and bonuses we could pack into one roll.
And then I realized that more rules does not make a game more engaging, it just adds more minutiae. Tiny, piddly little things that should either be handwaved, assumed, or just be completely inconsequential. Nah, 3.5 and PF has gotta have rules for it. No rules for it? Then forget about it.
Despite the whole thing being prefixed with Rule 0, it turned us into a group of number crunchers. Then we tried other systems (and non-medieval-fantasy stuff, at that) and it opened my mind to the shit /tg/ had been spouting for years.
Do not give players every rule for every situation- give them the building blocks to make those rules and discern when and when not to use them, otherwise you have Minmax McFuckwit trying to figure out how many dice he has to throw at the walking stat blocks until they give him XP.
HAVE FUN. HAVE AN ADVENTURE. AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, TRY OTHER SYSTEMS.
I'm actually playing a game of pathfinder (over Skype due to college) where we are escaped slaves on Not!South America during the age of exploration, except with all the normal D&D creatures and races.
So I am playing Grung the Kind. The nicest, most innocent, and frankly horrifying ork most people have ever seen. He was 7'3" (2.2m) and weighed 320lbs (145kg). Grung big man.
Through feats, he is using a large greataxe, which does 3d6 with a x3 crit. With the potions one of our two alchemist (of our 4 man part -_- ) makes, I can be enlarged, which enlaces my weapon as well. And adds strength. And I can take a potion of bull strength (thanks again "Crow" aka. Edge Edgelord). And dont forgeth to RAAAAAGE!!! RIP AND TEAR!!!...... OH A CUTE KITTY!! So in total I gain 10 strength, and 4 constitusion.
Grungs first turn of combat against a lvl 10 while were all lvl 8:
Roll: 20!! (Literally first time it has happened on attack all game)
Roll to confirm: 20!
Roll to kill: 8.... Shit. BUT HOLY SHIT!
Roll my 12d6 + 54 = 84.
Mirthic point for second attack: 20!
Roll to confirm: 17 + 19 = FUCKING CRITICAL.
Roll my 12d6 + 54 = 100.
Large Spider Queen are Kill.
And that is why I support Critical Abstinence.
