If you were trying to design a "semi realistic" game with guns, how would you handle HP and getting shot?
HP is kinda silly with boolet involved, but obviously someone spray and praying with a .22 might not kill someone with a few shots. Should I just have a random body part roll? Possible fatality on head/heart/lungs?
The only problem I have with that is it seems to detract from aimed shots/snoipahs and encourages spray n pray to hit deadly areas.
I'm no GM, but I'd assume you're either cut between playing it fairly arcade-ish or trying to be semi-realistic.
If you're being semi-realistic then devising some sort of system for accuracy and hitting body parts/organs grazing/penetration/straight through and what not (don't haze me on the specific terms) would probably be good.
>>43566691
GURPS does it decently well. Read the relevant splats and see for yourself. Any system that uses critical injuries after hp hits 0 will also do.
Alternatively... well, cover your eyes and ears.
PHOENIX COMMAND!
PHOENIX COMMAND!
PHOENIX COMMAND!
>>43566691
10 hit points per body part, different caliber bullets do different amounts of damage. So something like a Desert Eagle takes 10 hit points out, completely disabling that body part or killing you.
>>43566691
I'd play GURPS
attacks (guns) deal damage
Damage (for guns) is calculated (on calibre and cartridge, by the developers)
And is assigned different types( small piercing of Derringer and shotgun pellets, up to huge piercing such as .50 BMG), based on its ability to wound.
Hit locations have effects (crippled limbs, brain hits, etc) and a strategically placed hit can end a fight handily. A big shot might do a lot of damage, but if you hit the hand, you only take out the hand, not the combatant. A small shot may not wound much past damage resistance/armor, but any hit to the brain will most likely cause mayhem
>>43566818
What's to stop people from taking accurate rifles and shooting everyone else in the head?
>>43566841
Because as much as you can have an accurate rifle, you only get the bonus to hit if you take a round to aim.
To shoot someone is simple; have gun, point at enemy and fire. Of you draw and fire in the same round(like a fast draw from a cowboy), the shot (should be) randomly placed (One extra die roll).
If you shoulder your gun, you can choose a hit location and fire at will.
If you aim for a turn, you get the guns accuracy added to your shot(firing down the iron sights). If you have scoped sights that also provide a bonus, you need to aim for a number of seconds equal to the bonus you want to claim. An amazing set of sights (+4) on top of a very fine gun (+4) can easily help offset some of the hardest shots (eye -9, skull/brain -8)
>>43566979
Hmm. It's not a bad idea, the quick draw is random + dice roll, while the turn to aim on top of a penalty based on target.
My only beef is the huge penalty to shooting a head. A human head is pretty fucking big and a decently easy target, but I suppose without the difficulty imposed in mechanics, everyone WILL just be headshotting each other which makes for a boring game.
>>43567034
The default assumption is a torso/centre of mass target. +0 to hit. Everything else is relative to that based on size
Limbs are -2
Hands and feet -4
Vital organs -3
Groin -3
Neck -5
Face -5
Skull -8
Eye -9
>>43567102
>hands bigger than head
I think that means you have cancer.
>>43567165
Hod your hand over tour exposed throat. That's the neck hit location. Mostly concerned with the windpipe and spine.
Put your hand up to your eyebrows, across your cheeks. That's the set of tissues vulnerable to mostly corrosive attacks.
The rest of your head above your eyebrows is the kill location. Bone provides a default Dr 2, and otherwise any damage past Dr is X4 wounding.
>>43566691
Well obviously you'd have to implement a complex system of measures.
There are several types of abstract defensive stats in games, not counting those which are redundant with others:
- HP bar. Attacks inflict a certain amount of damage which is deducted from bar; once depleted, character is down.
- Percentage defence. All attacks are reduced by this much percent of their damage. Attacks with a penetration statistic or effect can ignore some portion of this.
- Subtractive defence. All attack damage is arithmetically reduced by this value. This means damage equal or lesser to this value is negated entirely. Some attacks can completely bypass this defense.
- Hit points. Once a certain number of strikes against the character has been incurred, it is defeated. The damage or power of these attacks is irrelevant.
- Invulnerable patches. These areas of the character cannot be damaged, thus denying any attack without a certain degree of accuracy.
- Weakspots. Each weakspot is defeated with a single piece of damage. Once all weakspots are damaged, the character is defeated.
Creating a more realistic game experience than the normal would simply mean implementing all of these measures. Have characters with both an Health and Hit point gauge, with varying degrees of both defence types across their body, with certain weak points that will partially or entirely disable the character if damaged at all, and allow worn armour to provide invulnerable patches (perhaps with caveats such as Hit Points and Subtractive Defence) as a buffer against innaccurate attackers.
Actual proper realism is impossible, and indeed defeats the point of playing a simplified game. Instead a more realistic game offers a similar diversity of tactics and considerations to real life than normal.
>>43567221
You are genuinely autistic
>>43567221
Why would you have to implement all of that complex flummery? Bullets are fucking lethal.
I'd probably just cob off this >>43566979 and streamline it.
You get two actions on your turn. Whether you want to move, move, act act, or move act, I don't care.
Aim/Shoot is the best for accuracy. Use the baseline of no bonus/penalty for shooting CoM, but make it harder to hit limbs/head. Regardless, getting shot with a bullet is incredibly dangerous. Even getting shot in the leg or arm could hit a major artery and kill you.
Get hit in the head? Dead.
Get hit in the heart? Dead.
Get hit anywhere else, barring an arm/leg/ass/shoulder graze? You're in bad-time town. Get shot several times? Dead.
Call of Cthulhu is even deadlier with gun combat since it is flat HP but all guns on average do almost lethal to overkill damage by default.
>>43566691
I'd play Phoenix Command.
>>43566691
I'd make it wildly swingy because people have died from a single bullet wound from small-caliber guns, and they've also survived being shot in the fucking brain.
>>43567286
Says the autistic.
>>43567345
It's complex because OP asked for increased realism.
The system you suggest is basically present in several other systems already. It's no more realistic that what's already on offer.
>>43566691
Massive critical threat range and damage multiplier. Most of the time when somebody gets shot,they drop. However, grazing hits can happen.
Armor designed to counteract firearms applies penalties to the weapon's threat range and multiplier, with maximum caps so a vest designed to stop handguns has no effect on large caliber weapons.
>>43566769
>saying Phoenix Command three times
Are you trying to summon the spirit of the moist nugget?
>>43566691
You replace hit points with your character writing in pain on the ground after getting shot with a flat d% chance that the wound is fatal.
>>43566691
Traveller does this well:
Damage is inflicted on your physical stats.
So as you take more damage, you become incapable of doing things.
3D6 damage on your constitution for example. It will heal over a couple of weeks, but in the current combat, you're pretty much fucked and will probably pass out.
>>43566691
I like the Silhouette system wound thresholds. Feels a bit more visceral taking flesh wounds and deep wounds rather than losing HP.
Couldn't say if it's more realistic though. It IS lethal I know that much.
>>43566691
>boolet
>snoipahs
kill you're self
>>43566691
Shadowrun does it well while not devolving in way too much autism.
>>43572512
How much does it take to kill/disable a character in Shadowrun? I only kind of half know the system.
>>43572554
Very lethal if you aren't protected. One or two rounds of the mid-tier pistol kills the random dude.
Even with a kevlar vest you can get stunned hard. Also you have rules for intentionally hitting any part of the body, rules for pray and spray, and pretty much for everything really.
>>43572491
> kill you're self
Okay, done. What now?
HIT POINTS ARE NOT MEAT POINTS
Holy shit, how do people still fail to get this?
If you have 50HP or whatever and a gun shoots you for 10 damage, it doesn't mean that a gun shot a fifth of your body off.
It means that the gun barely missed, or you twisted out of the way in time, or managed to hide behind cover, or it just barely nicked you, or you took it in the body armor, or whatever.
The bullet doesn't actually HIT your character in a meaningful way until your HP is zero.
HIT POINTS ARE NOT MEAT POINTS
>>43566691
>>43566691
You don't.
You take out hit points and use a much better system instead.
>>43574127
But what if I don't need a system that goes into every single scratch and blood drop when determining damage because I'm not autistic?
>>43566691
Here's what I used to do:
Hit location charts that features vital locations (head, vitals in the torso). Those "vital" locations increase damage. Also being hit in the head or vitals requires to pass a stun save check. Aiming at precise hit locations is possible but will give a penalty.
Then I used a wound level system combined with HP. Wounds are divided in light wounds, serious wounds, critical wounds and mortal wounds. Each type of wound gives penalties. Mortal wounds automatically kill the character if located in head or vitals. Critical wounds and mortal wounds cause bleeding. Bleeding is subtracted from HP.
Explosion damage is treated specially. It's deducted from directly HP and is divided among the 5 major hit locations (head, torso, right arm, left arm, right leg, left leg).
Hollow point rounds increase damage but would also increase armor. AP rounds reduce armor but also reduce damage unless they hit the head or the vitals. Rubber rounds cause stun damage, which means the damage is treated normally to calculate the stun save penalty, but then will be divided to calculate the wound level.
>>43574138
have the PCs ability scores be their hit points.
You take con damage, or dex damage, or strength damage. once two abilities reaches 0 you're unconscious, once three abilities reach 0, you're dead. This is essentially the Traveller system
>>43574094
Gurps a shit.
>>43566691
Fantasy Craft has a good idea for this:
You have vitality points. They are dependent on you CON multiplied (by 4-8) by class and increased by feats and other things. They're your, well, vitality. How much vim and vigor you still have left in this fight. Your 'fighting stamina'. If you run out of vitality, damage goes to wounds.
Then, you have wounds. These are dependent on your Con multiplied by your size (by .666-1.5 usually). These are your meat points. This is your blood. You lose this, you start to die.
FC doesn't work for directly porting to automatic weapons, but it does have good general ideas. That said, the answer to your questions are:
"semi realistic" means 'action movie with guns' to me, so I'm going to use that mindset.
Spray'n'Pray would obviously be a + to the attack but a - to the damage.
You shouldn't have a random body part roll for special characters, but the standard red shirts/mooks should die after a few shots in their direction.
Massive damage (even if it is just to vitality) can inflict injuries, so allow players to roll for what body part they disable.
For aimed shots, give them a penalty that scales with how much armor the enemy has (i.e. an enemy with medium armor only inflicts a penalty of -6 or so) and have their damage ignore DR from armor if it succeeds.
For sniper and the specific head shot idea, just give guns made for that high crit base range and characters bonuses to said range. Crits go straight to wounds, so a high damage/high crit weapon can be fluffed as getting headshots.
>>43566691
Damage Thresholds, based on character strength and modified by armor. Each area has 3 HP, and a base DT based on the character's strength; armor worn on the area raises the DT, either slightly against all forms of damage, or greatly against specific forms of damage.
Things like 22s and thrown stones do 1d3 damage; Arrows n' 9mm do 1d3+1, 45s and javelins do 1d3+2, 5.56 and close-range shells do 1d3+3, and so on.
The DT is subtracted from the weapon's damage before it's applied to the character's limbs; if it's lowered to/below 0 then they take no damage, and if there's any remaining it's applied directly to the body part.
Limbs become useless at 3 Damage, if your Head reaches 0 you die, and Torsos have 5 HP but you die if they hit 0.
Whenever you suffer damage you begin taking 1 damage at the end of every subsequent turn due to blood loss (under the abstraction that the damage we're quantifying is only things much more serious than scrapes n' bruises; actual gashes and punctures.
>>43566769
I left those websites behind anon, I don't want to go back to geocities pages filled with weird calculation programs that are multiple OS's out of date and required you to contact the site owners email account in order to request a download link.
I can't go back.
you can set it so that you need to make a roll every time you get hit, and then a roll at the end of combat to stitch up the wounds, that's the only way that I can think of to make it realistic but still fun
I'm making a wild west game, and Im using Pbta Mechanics without the damage thing:
you roll 2d6 + your dex.
On a 12+, you kill the guy
On a 10-11, your gm gives you an advantage over the guy (+1 to next attack) or gives you the kill straight
On a 7-9 its like on 10-11 but you must pay a cost (revealing your position, expend extra ammo, be attacked)
On a 6 or less, your enemy makes a move, that will probably be shooting you. You must now roll to see how well you've endured the shot.
I actually think WoD darkness does a decent job representing gun combat. It's fairly simple to learn, lethal, and doesn't seem to imbalanced. The whole game is designed with situational bonuses and penalties, many of them spelled out by the game. Range, called shots (specific targets), environmental conditions like light and obstructions and there's plenty of room to implement Conditions and Combat Tilts to represent people becoming terrified and pinned down in a firefight, getting shot and slowly bleeding, having a limb injured or disabled etc. Also merits to represent small unit tactics, marksmanship, firefights, quick reaction, all kinds of stuff.
That being said, a snoipah in a tower aiming down at people WILL just kill them. Probably as it should be.
>>43574010
No, people only invented this to explain away the nonsense that is the static AC-HP dnd combat system.
>>43574863
then try neotech 2, uses trauma,blood loss and pain instead of a single HP value, and where the loss of blood or the getting more trauma/pain makes your character less able to act
>>43574010
Please go.
>>43566691
Probably some sort of limb stability with HP being more along the lines of bleedout.
Eg. you get shot in say the leg and roll for damage, this effects both the bleedout rate (how fast you take HP damage) and the stability of the limb. If a limb takes too much damage it is destroyed, anything from a shattered femur to being effectively blown off. If your HP dips too low your character loses consciousness, if it reaches zero they bleed out and die. HP loss is very rarely an immediate effect and generally entails gradual loss depending on the severity of wound. Furthermore being shot in the torso or head can cause further damage eg. a punctured lung, severing your spinal column, or blowing off your jaw limiting your ability to exert yourself, walk, or talk depending on what happened. Shots to the brain and heart are almost always fatal without immediate medical attention.
So lets say for example you get shot in the leg with a gun that does D10+2 damage or whatever. You roll an 8 for a total damage of 10, and the leg has a stability factor of say 12, so while it isn't destroyed walking is made more difficult. Since you took 10 total damage you bleed out at a rate of say 10 HP per every few rounds of combat or some shit. Ideally you could perform emergency medical care on yourself to stem or stop the bleeding so you can fight on longer.
>>43575212
AC/hp makes perfect sense, if all the combatants are warships. Just imagine the fighter's a battleship, the thief's a destroyer or sub, the ckeric's some kind of tender and the wizard's an aircraft carrier
>>43575212
>I have never read the Basic books
>any of them
Yeah, son, knock it off.
Deadlands did this pretty well, in that you can pass out from pain the first time you're hit, take dozens of bullets before dying of blood loss, or a lucky shot could blow out your kneecap or hit your heart
>>43575495
>comparing Basic to the stat-bloat nonsense that is 3rd or later
>>43575578
>all the D&D core books have the same explanation for what hp/ac actually stands for
>implies that somehow, the numbers getting bigger has changed what they mean, or somehow render the same explanation used for 30 years moot
>>43575620
The only way to keep hit points from being totally retarded is to make them hard to get, which people understood at some point (this is why earlier editions had all sorts of ways to bound them).
>Traveller and Silhouette mentioned
>fucking shitty nWoD 2e
>no Savage Worlds
Bitch please, with how basically every roll explodes in that system and the fact it uses wound levels instead of HP every bullet can fuck you over.
Add on the optional rule where every wound level lost inflicts an injury too and you're having some gritty shooty paintimes.
Called shots inflict penalties to the check, but if you aim you can negate them slightly. Plus if you're going for a shot to the head or other vital meat bits you get a hefty damage boost. Snipers who get the jump on a target with that kind of shot are almost guaranteed a kill.
>>43575649
>The only way to keep hit points from being totally retarded is to make them hard to get
How is an abstraction of stamina and staying power better for being harder to get?
It is so if you are playing a sword and sandals game, but D&D always skirted high magic, even from the beginning, that high magic merely wasn't so common.
No, you dolt, the only time HP is wrong is when the numbers are out of whack within the mechanics, or do not mesh up with the narrative idea. Only 5e has that problem.
>>43575687
>shills SW
>hates on NWoD despite the exact same thing happening in it when it comes to gunshots
>>43566691
Blackhammer's houserules for CP2020 are one of the better versions of damage by caliber rules I've seen at least in the context of CP. I've been trying to do something similar for SR 4/5 that follows their lead (instead of the typical designer impulse to treat .45 as an explosive .50 equivalent and 9mm as a 2mm kolibri replacement)
>>43575727
What are you talking about, I love nWoD.
I just hate how they ruined everything with God-Machine Chronicles.
>>43575741
>I just hate how they ruined everything with God-Machine Chronicles.
Well, I'd ask how you think that, but I'm a WtF player who started with 1e. GMC rules made WtF actually worth the time.
>>43575776
Started with mortals/Vampire, did a mixed game with werewolves featuring pretty heavily. A bit of houseruling and they were great fun (give them weaker Lunacy but let 'em regenerate bashing equal to Primal Urge per turn and give all Strength checks 8-again in warform to compensate).
Really, I don't see anything GMC did that Armory Reloaded and Mirrors didn't do better.
>>43575711
Because there are limits to what even magically augmented characters can withstand physically. People started really leaning on "hp isn't mp" since 3rd when you had characters averaging more hp awards more often with more easily-obtainable bonuses. In earlier systems, only like 8% of characters would even qualify for any hp bonuses whatsoever, compared to >40% in 3rd+ (all the while weapon damage is rolled with a static die because we don't want fighters getting too powerful because that would be "unrealistic").
>>43575816
I had a fuckton of houserules for the game, everything you just said and a whole lot more.
What GMC did was eliminate the threat of mooks to a proper werewolf, made gifts ACTUALLY worth a shit (spend essence/willpower for a +1-3 dice bonus? Really??), made Primal Urge actually worthwhile to bump, rather than a hindrance/waste of points, made Renown both more sensible, more tangible, and has more benefits, Harmony is so much better it's unreal, the different forms actually have purpose.
>>43575886
>eliminate the threat of mooks to a proper werewolf
Annnnd dropped.
>>43575848
>Because there are limits to what even magically augmented characters can withstand physically.
That is absolutely opinion, and actually entirely based on the tone of the game.
>>43575914
Do you... know what a mook is in WoD?
A mook is a random person on the street, a thug with a knife, the random tough with a pistol, the three guys at a bar brawl.
A decent werewolf will slap the shit out of all of them without breaking a sweat, if they don't just bark at them in dalu and send them running with their tail tucked.
I've seen werewolfs damn near die in barroom brawls, anon. DIE. In a barroom brawl. To punches, chairs, shanks, knuckledusters, belt buckles and broken bottles.
Die, anon, because 1e werewolves were pitiful enough to be greased not by hunters who got the jump on them, but regular people dropping 2-4 dice to attack them. It's fucking sad.
>>43575072
also:
When you suffer damage, roll +STR
On a 10+, your wounds won't hinder you by now.
On a 7-9, you're still on the fight, but you mark a debility.
On a 6 or less, you're unconscious or dead.
>>43575928
But that was the opinion of game designers from 1st-2nd, since hp was a much more bounded stat (you needed a 15+ on a 3d6 to get any bonuses, levels were more infrequent, levels were harder to get for certain "frail" characters like wizards, you stopped rolling HD after a certain level...). Characters who can withstand a lot of gross physical punishment without dying need to be legitimately supernatural or it breaks the game.
>>43576005
But damage is not "gross physical punishment".
>>43575970
Yes, and?
There is a reason the Herd must not Know. Getting mobbed is a risk, and wading right into combat when you're outnumbered is a risk. One you shouldn't fucking take if you want to stay doing Father Wolf's duty for very long.
>>43576029
Then why did the early d&d game designers take such great pains to limit the acquisition of hp? (Because when most people hear "you get hit by a goblin and take 4 damage," they're thinking of some kind of physical injury).
>>43576005
see
>>43576029
HP is not meat points, and what you are saying is based on the false assumption that hp loss translates to direct physical injury.
Hell, even in 4e, being "bloodied" meant the enemy managed to land a single telling blow on you that dealt some injury.
>>43574010
Hit points are meat points in games that are not shit.
>>43566691
OP bullets are not off switches. Where you get shot is the key here, people have taken half a dozen AK rounds to the torso and lived or been killed instantly by a .22 to the heart. HP with hit locations and damage modifiers solves that just fine.
>>43576060
Because the game was lower in power scale, high fantasy, middling magic, where later games are high fantasy/magic.
It was also a nod to it's early wargaming roots, where in games of the time, numbers are fairly concise, but the rules are indepth.
Look at Rogue Trader as a good example.
>>43572554
> How much does it take to kill/disable a character in Shadowrun?
> Elf/Human with body 1 and no armor?
The first shot from an Ares Predator X should cripple him and his ability to dodge the second shot.
> A troll with body 10, at least 10 armor (common armors got 9, troll go +1), combat drugs and pain inhibitor
Spare. No. Ammo. Take the biggest guns you can. Be at least 4 on the guy. Walk back as you fire a spread. Spend Edge. And you should be fine. Most of you.
>>43576065
What I'm saying is based on the assumptions that went into early d&d game design, retard. Hp has always been kind of a stupid system, but since 3rd it has been totally broken.
>>43576032
This also had the unfortunate side effect of making them unable to adequately challenge the supernatural creatures they are supposed to deal with in their own line unless the wolf in question puts all of their xp into combat.
That said, I'm of the opinion that a rank 3 spirit should not be able to tank an entire pack handily, which was often the case, like with Steel spirits.
>>43576095
>Because the game was lower in power scale
Exactly, but the problem with 3rd+ is that they've exploded the hp stat without exploding weapon damage, so you guys are left with some lame explanation about how hp is a metaphor for your character's ability to dodge lol.
When the game has a spell called cure light wounds that restores HP and poisons and such reduce HP of course people are going to assume HP represents physical state.
A better question is what motivated the moronic decision to not make that official. There are much, much better ways to represent luck and stamina that do not turn into a cluttered mess.
>>43576112
Yes, and the tone of the game scaled up. The core explanation still makes sense when you take the tone of the game into account.
>>43576173
No, the problem with 3e was Ivory Tower design making it so you could only do appreciable damage in a CERTAIN fashion, and all others come up short. 5e, being a bastard child of 2e design and 3e thought (or vice versa) also has some of this.
4e did not have this problem, especially when the devs got the math right.
Also, HP represents stamina, reserves, etc, taking hits and shrugging off the pain, with AC representing the ability to avoid blows via armor, agility, or plain luck.
>>43576188
You also have the ability to restore HP by yelling at someone. The problem is people not reading the book and taking things absolutely literally. The early game designers likely assumed their audience was literate.
>>43576253
>No, the problem with 3e was Ivory Tower design making it so you could only do appreciable damage in a CERTAIN fashion
In other words, hp became a broken stat and it's "core explanation" didn't scale-up correctly. Thank you for conceding my point.
>>43576381
>hp became a broken stat and it's "core explanation" didn't scale-up correctly
It did for enemies, who were given the tools to use it out of hand. Those tools were not in the hands of players, and there is far more wrong with Ivory Tower design and the rocket tag it created than you using it to support your slim argument.
3.pf is broken due to a shitton of factors, but then you ignore 4e, which does not have the same issue, and 5e, where it is far less noticeable.
>>43572512
> Shadowrun does it well while not devolving in way too much autism.
Each round:
> Make a new initiative track. That initiative roll determines how many times you go.
> Your move value has to be divided among how many initiative passes you got.
> Select a target you can see (or not) and take a shot.
> Not so fast! What's the worst between lightning, visibility, weapon range and wind? Did you take into account the Smartgun effect on the wind, the image magnification and your natural low-light vision?
> Wait, do you use burst fire? If so are you concentrating your shots to do more damage or do you want to make sure he has trouble dodging?
> What spread is your automatic shotgun? Medium? What are the modifiers of a medium spread at medium range? At short range?
> Well, an auto shotgun firing a 3-rounds-burst incurs a recoil of 6, substract your recoil compensation from gun and derived strength.
> Don't forget the situational modifiers kid, you're running, that's a -2.
> So... 2 hits
> Defender goes full dodge, he goes -10 in the initiative order and gain Will to all his defense rolls for the turn.
> Cover gives him a +2 bonus which is negated by the burst fire's penalty. He also gets -3 from the medium spread.
> Even with all that he gets only one hit.
> Then compare DV+(-AP) vs Armor. Shotgun's AP is -1, but using flechettes increase it to +4, which is a bad thing. Flechettes increase damage by 2, but combined with medium spread and range gives -1.
> If the Armor value is higher, damage is stun, otherwise it is physical.
> Then the defender roll Armor+Body+Shot's AP (remember, the lower in the negative the better). Any hit reduce damage taken by one.
> If damage exceeds the target's body, target is knocked down.
> Keep in note how much recoil you've got for next initiative pass.
> Everyone go all initiative pass within 3 seconds.
What is too much autism?
>>43576439
My "slim argument" is that calling on early editions of d&d to justify your combat design choices is bullshit since it was a much more nerfed system, and explaining away extra hp through "grit" wasn't that big of a deal. 5e escaped some of these problems since it re-bound a bunch of stats that were given free reign in 3rd. Hp is still a bad stat since you're left with a mechanic that says "oh, you hit, but it wasn't a 'hit hit' since the dude blocks it or something (no not with his AC or with a parry maneuver, he can just do it, don't think about it too much)," but if it works for you, then enjoy.
>>43576488
>> the windspeed table
I hate the devs for adding this in 5e. This shouldn't even remotely matter at anything less than extreme sniper range.
>>43566691
I find WoD is usually just lethal enough to make a gunfight potentially fatal but not overly unfair to the players.
This is assuming no supernatural nasties are involved.
>>43576644
If it's really moving it's noticeable at 300 meters. It's long but not uncommon.
>>43576842
I'd still consider it abstracted in the range penalties honestly. The only stuff I would consider reasonable are cover and lighting penalties and even then most players are either metas with good nocturnal vision (the opening hours in the Tirs must be hell for human tourists who aren't night owls), or will probably have ways to counter that.
>>43574094
>implying gurps is better than the rpgs from leading edge games, like phoenix command
>>43566691
Have a d10 table to roll on for levels of injury.
0 - nothing happens, the shot was probably fired from long range and didnt penetrate the skin (airgun pellet or body armor)
...
...
10 - If hit in a limb, that limb is now permanently destroyed, and immediate medical care is required not to bleed to death. If hit in head/torso, better start burning them fate points.
Weapons have a point blank range stat (point blank does not mean within a meter, but rather the range at which the projectile still flies almost perfectly straight), like say 15-25m for most pistols, 75-ish meters for .223 and .30 caliber rifles. Any time the range to target is longer than a multiple of the point blank range, modify the injury score by -1.
Example: a 9mm submachine gun with 30m on its range stat is fired at a target 95m away. Modify -1 for going over 30m, another -1 for going over 60m, and another -1 for a total of -3 for going over 90m.
Armor gives further penalties to this score. Muzzle energy of the weapon can also give penalties (airgun pellets, .22LR) or bonuses (.30+ caliber rifles).
Ammunition types (like Armor Piercing) have a lower bonus but negate a larger armor bonus.
Example:
A .30 caliber round fired from a hunting rifle might have +4. The AP round fired from the same rifle can have +2, but reduces armor penalty of up to -4. All these modifiers apply to the same table, so it's a simple add-up process that doesn't involve multiple rolls like saves. Only a to-hit roll has to be made prior to the wounding roll.
>>43576644
>>43576842
Also affects the guy wielding the gun, I guess. Although this would make the Smartgun irrelevant.
>>43576488
... And then, the decker was detected by an IC which alarmed the Spider on duty.
>>43566691
1-Roll for place you hit
2-roll for damage
3-armor protection factor is X, this is reduced from damage, if 0 or less skip parts 4, 5 and 5
4-the body part you hit has a +Y damage (can be negative)
5-each race has a +Z damage (can be negative), some stat like health deal +W damage (can be negative)
6-Damage is roll -X +Y + Z + W
7-Total damage is damage + previous damages
player roll to see if he dies every time he receive damage (or someone tries to heal him). This is a percentage based on the amount of damage he received
>>43577324
ops before 1 there
0-Check if you hit, skip all other steps if you dont
>>43577324
If you want more realism, but without the complexity of stuff like phoenix command
you could isntead of reducing X from damage, you div damage by X, this allow stuff water and stone to form canyons.
do the same for z, y and w
>>43577225
You mean it alarmed the spider and triggered a session of exciting cybercombat while the rest of the players go play sm4sh.
>>43566691
>If you were trying to design a "semi realistic" game with guns, how would you handle HP and getting shot?
Define.... "semi"
1) some exterior system for determining what got hit. You know, that AIM thing. It lands you somewhere on a chart of where you got hit. Hand, foot, arm, leg, gut, chest, neck, head, heart, eye, brain.
2) Every section has X layers of armor. No, your eyes are not armored. Tough shit, but hey, everything else has skin, and your heart and brain have bone. Armor has a maximum it will deflect based on it's hardness vs the hardness of the bullet and the angle of attack. Let's just say it's a random value between 0 and HARD1-HARD2, you could aim/time to avoid deflection, but we're going for "semi" right?
3) The bullet has X amount of kinetic energy consisting of X mass going Y m/s. The smaller the mass, the more it effectively multiplies it's hardness value.
4) That which is deflection by armor simply goes away, possibly being shrapnel to others.
sidenote: At this point hollow-point bullets make contact and split into ~6 smaller bullets each calculated separately. Each can damage you, each can be stopped by armor.
sidenote: At this point, shaped charges detonate and there's a separate calculation for dealing with heated plasma jets.
5) Another hardness comparison between the bullet and the armor determines how much the armor stops. The kinetic energy doesn't just go away though, that's called "absorbed", and the unit gets to have fun with that. What the armor doesn't stop, goes through, that's called "penetration", and goes down to the next layer of armor.
Final Penetration Sidenote: The goopy insides have a few order of magnitudes less hardness, but absorb a fair share. Anything left over goes out the back end, hitting any layers of armor on the way out as well.
6) Armor or goopy insides that absorb kinetic energy take damage. Most armor will be A-OKAY as steel doesn't give a fuck.
>>43577510
Yes, but let's focus on how simple it is, not how time-consuming it is.
Also, I forgot wound/stun thresholds on both the attacker and defender on >>43576488.
WHY CAN'T I DO ANYTHING RIGHT IN SHADOWRUN?!!
>>43577563
OH WE'RE NOT DONE!
7) Damage to goopy insides takes surprisingly little kinetic energy to fuck up their shit and ranges status effects from
Bruise
Bleeding
Structural damage
8) A separate pain value is thrown at the character, that goes up with each step.
9) Side effects from structural damage depend on the what target was hit, like blindness, suffocation, instadeath, but all of them carry the risk of shock (which is just fancy talk for low blood pressure).
Now the important part: for the love that all is holy AUTOMATE THIS. Build a model and get some numbers and hit a button. We live in a modern age. It's really not that hard. Have it output a little description of what happened. Like a DM tool. But grim.
If you want a back of the napkin math you can do in your head...... just look at whatever GURPS did.
Or: bruise, bleed, dying, dead. With most guns doing between dying and dead. And armor having a chance of knocking it down by 1-2. You can take as many bruises as you want, but 3 bleeds and you're facing shock.... which is dying. At dying, you can't do much and need medical help.
>>43577576
You also forgot that any damage exceeding the armor's value damages the armor and knocks it down by one.
SHADOWRUN! FUN FOR ALL AGES!
>>43577563
Oh, and all that absorbed kinetic energy from armor goes somewhere. There's a seperate calculation for how the meatsack deals with getting punched in his entire chest. Yay concussions.
If you want to mix this in with some sort of melee thing, armor absorbing the blow turns "piercing" damage into "blunt" damage.
>>43577672
I kinda want to write a Mini-Shadowrun version. How likely would I be to get sued by CGL for making a less shit system than them?
>>43577576
desu in general if I was doing SR and houseruling, I'd scrap the cybercombat skill entirely and just have fuck ups that compromise you with IC sound the alarm in meatspace after your next round. Fuck this tron shit.
>>43567211
>Hod your hand over tour exposed throat.
Don't forget to open your mouth and bob your head back and forth.
>>43577733
Just don't reference shadowrun in any way shape or form.
They don't own rolling dice and counting hits.
I'd love a rules-lite run'n'gun system that's kinda sorta compatible with shadowrun.
>How likely would I be to get sued by CGL for making a less shit system than them?
If you're a typical neckbeard with a homebrew blatantly stealing shadowrun IP and appending it? No chance. They don't give a shit about small fries.
If you make a clean-room implementation with no references to their IP and have a massively popular publication? Oh yeah, they'll sue you no matter what you do. There's MONEY there.
>>43577854
I know they don't own a lot of the shit. Finding new megacorps names is easy, finding new lore isn't too hard in a lot of ways.
I kinda want to keep metas but they also don't own elves, orcs and dwarves (the tolkien estate might whine), or dragons for that matter. At least one of their dragons I planned on keeping but at the same time, they put it in Germany when she's a french legend.
I want to keep the cyberfantasy, basically, but I'm okay expunging a lot of the stuff that's shadowrun content rather than "we stole the names from Gibson, LotR and GitS"
>>43577900
>cyberfantasy
Eh, fuck cyber fantasy.
I want a near-future system. Hell, the capabilities of today are pretty astounding with self-guilding bullets, light bending, tailored plagues, and everyone is walking around with a super-computer in their pocket.
But Shadowrun is busted as all fucking getout with some sort of weird cowboy and indian history fuckup, and 80's retrofuturism making for weird shit and magical elves thrown in just to make even less sense. Oh, and three nigh incompatable systems competing for game-time.
Cyberpunk 2020 is a fucking horrible system.
Eclipse phase is supposedly nice, but it's WAY far future.
I dunno of anything else.
>>43578051
I had an old system I started tweaking that had the fantasy elements as a module. I mostly used that because I couldn't be arsed to spend my limited childhood money (I didn't actually get anything resembling a regular allowance) on CP or SR (I only owned the core for 2e or 3e, forget which).
The core would still be a near future, possibly 2080s-2100 system, with some allowance for technical advancements without going to full on magitech like EP does (sorry, sleeving is, afaic, not something that will be within any sort of technical capacity for centuries if ever). It was shit but there's some bases I could rescue since it was basically simplified 3e.
But at the same time have stuff that can do fantasy as a module (the original project had a fantasy module that was more or less Arcanum without the somewhat poorly thought out Magic/Tech antagonism, at the very least the justification for fantasy races was more or less straight out of Arcanum (magical selection stuff))
>>43574010
>Holy shit, how do people still fail to get this?
Not entering a debate, but merely answering this question:
It is hard to get because it is a counter-intuitive abstraction.
>A goblin swings sword, hits, and does x damage to level 1 PC
>same goblin swings same sword, hits, and does same damage to a level 4 PC
>except since the level 4 PC has higher HP, the same sword, swung by the same arm, for the same damage, does less damage because HP is actually an abstraction for avoiding taking damage
>the same damage, does less damage
Do you see how damage not actually being damage and that the extent that damage is actually damage is relative might, just might, be a difficult abstraction to wrap one's head around?
If not, please recognize that the second line of your post also applies to you.
If I valued realism and simplicity, I'd probably use a fair number of tables and a health pool based on blood. Tables would always involve some checking, but fewer layers of rules is easier to use.
I'm not sure I'd even want to allow called shots. In a combat scenario guns miss a lot, so you want to aim for the victim's center of mass to maximize odds of hitting. You'll never see a police officer (for example) try to shoot out someone's legs. A grunt firing into a treeline is just happy to hit anything at all. Hitting a target's head is actually an errant, if fortunate, result. Maybe something like 1=head, 2=left arm, 3, right arm, 4-6 torso, 7-8 left leg, 9-0 right leg.
I don't think I would roll damage either. Depending on how well you hit, less the victim's armor, you check the value on the table, and hits just apply some sort of maiming/killing effect in addition to blood loss, all of which ranges from trivial (grazing shot) to lethal (organ struck).
>>43572108
Underrated.
Especially in that it's randomly allotted. If one stat hit's zero you go down, if all three are zero you are 100% dead. More damage than stat? Spills over onto a different stat.
The average stat is worth 7 points. A decent gun does 11 damage.
>>43577563
>>43577642
>use Dwarf-Fortress-inspired program to simulate attacks in tabletop
>plug in variables
>attack result comes out
I am okay with this.
>>43582161
>So am I.
>>43566691
Everyone has between 2 and 4 hitpoints. Guns deal 1d6 damage. Hit really well get +1 damage. Hit poorly and get -1. Most people have 3 hitpoints.
Get shot by someone with average aim and you're 50/50 going to die. Get shot by someone with good aim and you'd have to be extremely tough and extremely lucky to be hanging on by a thread. Get shot by someone with piss-poor aim and you might get 0 damage from a graze.
There--done.
Could someone hypothetically just have classes of firearm, if they wanted semi-realism without going for full accuracy?
Revolver, Handgun, SMG, etc, maybe have like Heavy Revolver, Compact Handgun, etc.
>>43575463
And that's what it was originally designed for. Although, such a system would also have to give weapons differing attack bonuses to represent how well they penetrate armor.
>>43566691
Go bug the SoS guys, that's their fetish.
>>43567034
Bwahaha
Having fired a rifle, no, hitting a head is not easy at all even when it's just a static target. Hitting a moving, bobbing target is a whole 'nother issue. Let me guess, you also think Soldiers are some super l33t shooters who land over 30% of their shots?
>>43586948
What it is average hit rate these days?
