Does /tg/ like Shin Megami Tensei?
I've never actually played it but from what I know of the series I think the central idea is really cool.
Yes. I'm making my own home brew system for it.
No, I fucking hate it
>>43533255
post drafts
>>43533242
The central idea is the most boring part of the series, IMO, and gets even less interesting when you realize that in the context of the series, the word "demon" includes things like pixies and is basically an edgy stand-in for "monster" for the most part. What's really interesting is the underlying cosmology and the lore, and how that lore interacts with the story and gameplay.
>>43533224
I like In Nomine, so yeah, I've always liked SMT.
>>43535718
SMT is like In Nomine with a little bit of Shadowrun
>>43535695
Thanks for sharing anon. I think the series is a little less cool now.
>>43535695
I think that's more of a translation issue with the word demon.
Also, DDS is still my favorite.
I even love the anime hair joke it makes.
>>43535695
Has there ever been a SMT game where the Angelic side don't come off as bigger dicks than the Demonic?
>>43536342
A world of Law would suck pretty hard but it would probably be better than a world where a devil could burst into your house and murder you just because he's STRONG. It comes down to how much you value freedom I guess
>>43536342
Strange Journey had both sides pretty much be dicks. Law side didn't even have God as the big bad.
Also, the other DS one, the TRPG, had Law actually be the good guys, more or less, even if the actual angels were being dicks. God is actually pretty reasonable overall in it.
>>43536372
>A world of Law would suck pretty hard but it would probably be better than a world where a devil could burst into your house and murder you just because he's STRONG.
So much this. A lot of people say that YHVH and Co. are the true, objective villains in all SMT stories, but while it's true that the God of SMT is much less of a bro than the God of the Bible, a life of peace and order under the rule of a self-righteous prick is highly preferable to a life of fear and suffering under the rule of no one at all.
>>43536420
Eh, they're both shitty.
REMOVE MACCA
NEUTRAL STRONK
>>43535695
"demon" is one translation of the japanese word "Yokai" which basically just means "monster" and is a catch all term for any supernatural entity.
>>43536342
one of the underlying rules for SMT is pretty much that Chaos and Order are both assholes but in their own way.
>>43536420
Neutral is the only true choice.
>>43536431
>NEUTRAL STRONK
Not strong enough to survive in a World of Strength though :^)
>>43536504
But still strong enough to prevent that world of strength from being realized.
>>43535617
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B53zKX9AOpAJelV1eEtJb3VmVFU&usp=sharing
It's heavy WIP and I have most of my notes written down in a IRL notebook, and it's mostly just mechanics outlines.
>>43536559
Still, thanks. I'd love to help playtest and contribute ideas.
>>43536420
I would disagree. Law world is terrible. At least in a world of strength there exists the possibility of improving your lot. As others said, though, neutral is the best option.
>>43536595
The core system I'm hoping is gonna be really simple, but I haven't begun play testing for it yet. I could preemptively set up a role20 room for future play testing but it might sit unused for a while.
>>43533224
Sort of, but their games all have so many similarities that I find the novelty wears thin.
>>43536487
>one of the underlying rules for SMT is pretty much that Chaos and Order are both assholes but in their own way.
Might be just me but it tends to feel like Chaos gets off a lot lighter in the asshole department than Order but that could just be my own viewing.
>>43535695
Demon just means supernatural entity though.
>>43536864
The way I see it, Chaos often gives across the impression of being the plucky rebels, oppressed by those evil angels and their fascist God. However, I think the implication of what their lifestyle might be like is a lot worse. Sure, you get freedom, but it's the freedom for your neighbor to murder you whenever he feels like taking a swing at you.
Compare that with Law where it might sound harsh at first, but at least it offers some kind of safety.
>>43536864
It depends on the game. In Raidou law wasn't that bad.
>>43536883
In the context of SMT it does. But in general English usage, it has strong connotations of referring to an evil supernatural entity, especially one that possesses people or torments souls of the damned.
>>43536924
Well Atlus USA can't translate for shit then.
>>43536936
Aeon Genesis was the first to bring the SMT series over to English-speaking shores (unless you count than Persona 1, which actually did have a shit translation the first time around)
>>43536342
What I think is the weakest point of SMT is how it's two shitty choises and neutrality being the only reasonable one.
The thing about chaos side of things is that because it's all about personal power and the player is always strong as fuck, the world of lawless chaos doesn't seem that bad when it's not properly established that most other humans are too weak and will be eaten by demons.
I think it might help is it was pushed more that ultimately law side wants to get rid of demons on earth and protect humans (proper God-fearing, law abiding, humans that is).
>>43537089
Nocturne didn't have only 3 choices, I don't know about SMT IV though
>>43533224
1-2 and Nocturne are great. Persona 3 is okay but the Persona line is kind of so-so, in my opinion at least. SMT4 was weak but had nice music. I've been wondering how to run an SMT inspired game for years without a good solution.
>>43537103
SMT =/= Persona
SMT is mainline. Everything else (Persona, DDS, Raidou games etc.) are spin-offs under MT.
Atlus USA used SMT just because when marketing other games in the west.
>>43537096
Nocturne was it's own special case.
Most SMT games follow the law-neutral-chaos route.
>>43536924
In the world of SMT it makes sense. Unless it's human or angel, it doesn't matter if it's ogre or pixie or Lucifer it deserves to be destroyed in the righteous fire of nukes.
>>43537146
Ambassador Thorman, pls go
>>43536342
Devil Survivor was pretty light on choices, I think even Metatron is friendly no matter what side you pick. Ironically, one of the neutral choices was the shittiest (run away from the city), but I think even that gets a upbeat ending in the remake.
>>43537096
They realized all the choices sounded shitty (even Neutral is hoping the next protagonist does the same, and the Law vs Chaos will still plague humanity) so there's a ending that's just "FUCK EVERYTHING" and blows up the universe.
Also the new game (SMT IV: Final) is apparently all about the third option of polytheistic gods having enough of Lucy/YHWV's shit and fighting both of them, making all the endings neutral to some degree.
>>43537146
Thor please
>>43537146
Angels are technically demons in SMT terms, though.
>>43537121
thanks to fucking demon summoner, persona is canon to the timelines. Assuming alternative timelines are just alternative universes rather than multiple timelines inside one universe inside the multiverse.
IF goes straight into the persona series. the sea of unconscious gives an explanation on how demons were made.
Somewhere along the lines. YHWH got fucked and became the evil giant head he is and that when shit got real bad for the rest of time.
>>43537146
Thor, please don't. Nuking Japan never works. There either survives or it fails or it get protected while the world get's fucked.
I do wonder how an USA SMT world be like.
NYC subway battles?
>>43537185
Technically. Though in narrative angles are usually presented as something clearly different from other demons.
Considering that you can use demon fusion with humans, what does that tell about humans themselves?
>>43537189
When you take any multiverse world far enough everything, everything in the world is canon with everything else.
So it's waste of time to ponder the canonical relations of things in some big multi-verse thing.
>>43537189
Persona it's still a different timeline, but yeah, they did say in an interview that all MT games are in the same megaverse if I remember correctly. Like, if Raidou goes law SMTI can't happen
>>43537193
America would make a pretty cool setting for an SMT style game. Since it's kind of a cultural melting potpls no /pol/I could imagine all the demons from various folklores battling it out.
>>43537197
That humans are also demons, like angels, and all other forms of beings.
>>43537197
>angles
>not angles
>strange journey doesn't let you just gun everyone down and choose none of the endings
supernaturals go home
>>43537812
Well neutral is basically, kill everything not-human, screw the swartswelt and go home for some beer.
>>43536431
>NEUTRAL STRONK
>>43536487
>Neutral is the only true choice.
>>43536620
>As others said, though, neutral is the best option.
You're not wrong; why do you think I always name my SMT protags "Cygnus"?
>>43536620
I think that's because we're dealing with the demiurge, and not the Great Will itself.
>>43538084
best album
>>43538215
'70s prog themed RPG (either /tg/ or /v/) when?
>>43538084
God I love that album. Probably my overall favorite of theirs, but they have a lot of great albums.
>>43536924
Though the original concept of "daemon" was also pretty neutral and generic. I actually like that the use of the word hearkens back more to its first meaning, especially considering, as people have pointed out ITT, the rather non-benevolent nature of the Law side in the games.
Japan has so many different names and ranking systems for different types of supernatural spirits, and one has to really dig through the history of western mythology, through thousands of years and a multitude of different cultures, just to find equivalents to all of them. I think that any attempt to be particularly literal is going to end up a jumbled linguistic mess.
>>43536924
>But in general English usage, it has strong connotations of
Anon, "Demon" is just the word used to translate "Yokai" which is a much more general term.
This whole thing your hung up on is the fault of the translators.
>>43539192
That's one of those things where there is no perfect translation.
The highest powers of the world of SMT are straight out of religion, even more so from judo-christian (is that the term? something like that) stuff. Many of the games have God vs Lucifer element, ether in the background or sometimes at the whole point.
And thus, I believe, that the religiously charged word 'demon' fits in the games much more than maybe more appropriate and neutral 'monster'.
>>43539293
It definitely fits with daimon, the divine beings of greek mythology. Light tendency demons (of any alignment) fit as agathodaimons, while Dark tendency demons are kakodaimons.
>>43539451
Problem with that is, that for layman the word daimon just seems like funky way of spelling demon.
>>43539509
Yeah, but laypeople would have trouble understanding why Satan and Lucifer are different characters, and why Satan's working for YHVH.
>>43533224
Shin Megami Tensei rocks. Modern Persona is shit.
>>43539192
>This whole thing your hung up on is the fault of the translators.
I'm not that hung up on it, I just think that the novelty of "you're a cyberpunk demon summoner!" wears a little bit thin when "demon" just means "supernatural creature". The fact that they're just called demons in the first place because of a translation quirk only further undermines the novelty.
>>43539192
>>43540259
It's not a "quirk," they're referred to as "akuma" (i.e. "demon") in Japanese so they're called demons in English, though as has been said it's being used more in the sense of "daimon" (morally non-specific supernatural creature) than in the Abrahamic sense.
>>43536431
>>43536487
>>43536620
>>43538084
Makai, the demon's world, has also been called Atziluth.
This is the world of emanation, before creation itself.
In some ways, the manifestations of divine force from that realm, may not gain an actual form without crossing the barrier (represented by the river styx), and manifesting in the mortal world/Earth/Assiah.
>>43539451
>>43539509
Greek demons are usually spelled "daemon".
>>43543594
"Daemon" is Latin dipshit.
>>43544094
Sorry, I meant "Classical", not "Greek".
>>43533224
I like Mara
>>43537831
It was decent, but give me a plasmagun and let me play DOOM: JRPG edition
So how much should tendency play a part?
>>43537831
You mean Neutral is hubris wherein the answer to human caused apocalypse is to trust in humanity's inherent nature to be good despite the proof to otherwise, also creating closed loops of destruction, except for SMT4, where thats LAW.
>>43544951
What do you mean?
>>43546041
It could be referring to how demons of a various alignment interact with characters. For example, could a Law aligned demon only be summoned by a Lawful character?
That would be my guess, at least
>>43536342
SMT1, easily.
>>43546129
Thorman nuked Tokyo.
God flooded the place.
Also SMT 1 had one of my favorite bits, where in the end you were in the tower that was supposed to be the place where all true believers of God found sanctuary and there was one family who were like "We, don't really give a crap about God, but we lied to get in here."
>>43546079
It should be easier/harder, but not limited to.
>>43546211
Oh sure. I definitely agree. I think in some of the early games recruiting demons would also shift your alignment closer to theirs. That might also play a factor
>>43546211
I agree with this.
>>43536342
All of them.
>>43536902
It all makes sense now; Chaos is the hipster alignment!
>>43547407
Its how it usually goes.
Law: Peace without Freedom
Chaos: Freedom without Peace
Neutral: Sane but temporary.
I liked the MMORPG because it had guns in it.
But the weeb shit setting, story and visuals were, well, shit.
>>43547820
/k/ pls go and take your goddamn meds for once.
>>43536420
I don't know, in SMT 1, 2 and 4 the forces of law only want to save some people while leaving everyone else to die in a nuclear holocaust.
The most lawful ending in SMT 3 would basically condemn everyone to an existence that's effectively no different from death, too.
So if law actually offered peace and prosperity, maybe it'd be a good choice, but it always seems to somehow end up being far more violent than chaos.
Not that chaos makes any sense either.
>>43546079
More the Light (Top) and Dark (Bottom) part of axis.
They're gradations of the other alignments, and in the games, often reflect whether a demon will be recruitable or not.
>>43547490
I don't really see how Chaos would lead to freedom for most of the population to be honest, they'd just have to answer to the guy with the biggest sword/gun/claws/whatever.
>>43548133
Law's solution almost always tends to be the Noah's arc one. Hand pick good people, save them, fuck everyone else.
Have good people, with some guidance, build a new paradise.
>>43548337
Chaos is the anarchy option.
If you are strong enough, you can do anything.
If not, you are screwed.
There can't be absolute freedom for everyone, as bigger guy can always take the freedom of smaller guy away from him.
Most of the games involve your friends betraying you if you don't go with their alignment. How would that translate into this? If it should be kept at all, that is.
>>43550165
Just keep the game loose so the characters can choose to go on their different ways if they disagree on who to trust, who to ally with and so on.
>>43550165
I have a few plans for that in my table top.
1) Just assume that the end game is the party turning on each other and prepare for it, and let the players know that it's a possibility and to not take it too seriously.
2) Make them agree to keep their betrayal to a minimum.
