How do I make a memorable BBEG without going full-edge?
Don't consider the BBeG, consider the system that made him.
Vader is nothing without the empire. Build the empire well, and Vader emerges.
What you do is have him be friendly. Obnoxiously so. Asks the heroes about their families, tells them about his grandkids, all while his hordes burn down the village in search of some macguffin.
>>44542091
Really, really depends on the setting and the themes you're trying to convey. The BBEG, perhaps moreso on the protagonists, is usually one of the main factors that dictates the flavour of the campaign. Sometimes full-edge isn't even that bad, provided you limit the BBEG's interaction and don't force his/her/its overly dark personality into every damn session or two.
Other, quite often liked BBEGs involve delusional antagonists who believe they're doing the right thing, though it's actually very difficult to properly convey one in this way while still making him/her/it a compelling character.
Of course, sometimes you can jut cross the barrier beyond good and evil altogether and either go for some horrific terror beyond Human comprehension, or a plain, straight-up Straw Nihilist. Once again these archetypes of personality are really, really easy to fuck up, but can make for some extremely memorable characters.
In the end, two of the most important questions to ask are as such: How does your BBEG see morality, the battle between good and evil etc, and what drove them to this path of reshaping/destroying/whatever the world around them? Once you've got those two questions out of the way it becomes far easier to make a compelling character, regardless of archetype.
>>44542120
Maybe two BBEGs, that while the same side, are polar opposites? Other is friendly and overtly polite, other is rude and obnoxiousIt's modern campaign and players are anarchists fighting against corrupt law enforcement.
>>44542091
Have him do one massively evil edge thing in order to get the PC's invested in him, and then have the rest be normal evil machinations. They'll hold himto the standard of the first big evil thing even if he never does something that horrible again.
Example - my current BBEG started off the game by murdering a baby. Since then he has done nothing but run away and scheme, occasionally throwing monsters at the PC's. But man do they want to kill that fucker.
>>44542091
Give them a point to the shit that they are doing.
Kain of Legacy of Kain was trying to save the world but was only heroic by contrast to the shit head around him. He wanted to save the world because that's where all the delicious humans were and his Empire was/is going to be.
Magneto, at least initially, just wanted a place for his people to not get lynched and if he had to carve out a patch of earth to do it then so be it.
In Carpe Jugulem by Terry Pratchett the patriarch of the Magpyr clan did it for sport.
Evil Harry Dread did it because Evil Dark Lording was his job and he followed the Heroic Code to a fault.
>>44542091
I don't really know myself, but when I create a BBEG for a campaign I usually make them more human then most people are lead to believe and having a set of morals and a code of honor for not doing truly heinous things like killing the innocent just out of the shear pleasure of it like a total edge lord would do, becoming sad when one of there followers is killed by something, feeling wrath/hatred for the thing that made him who he is today like being enslaved by some lord or giving a slight smile to his people for being successful on there quests.
>>44542091
Take inspiration from BBEG that aren't edgelords
>>44542091
don't go full edge
>>44542184
This is a good example of a not edge lord bad guy.
>>44542184
And you choose Nox?
like him, but im not sure i wouldnt consider him without edge.
>>44542194
Or alternatively go Full Edge.
I don't mean shitty half edge like Game of Thrones that people mistake for full edge. I mean Requiem levels of edge. Edge to the point of parody and fun.
>>44542156
>limit the BBEG's interaction and don't force his/her/its overly dark personality into every damn session or two.
BBEG's interaction with the players is a thing I don't really know how to pull off. How often should the PCs run into him? Is a bad guy running everything from the shadows as good as him acting all out in the open, no secrets and no mysteries?
>>44542156
>In the end, two of the most important questions to ask are as such: How does your BBEG see morality, the battle between good and evil etc, and what drove them to this path of reshaping/destroying/whatever the world around them? Once you've got those two questions out of the way it becomes far easier to make a compelling character, regardless of archetype.
This is excellent advice, OP. One of the things that's always helped me make BBEGs that my IRL group has enjoyed is that I do not focus on their morality. Not at first.
I focus on their motivation. If you know why your BBEG is doing the things they're doing, what their end goal is, and why that is their end goal, then everything falls into place, I've found.
For example. One campaign I ran was set in a low-magic sort-of-Renaissance fantasy setting. The BBEG there was a mage who was attempting to reintroduce magic to the world. Magic, in this setting, was like a tide, with high points (when the world flourished) and with low points (when things weren't so great and the world was slowly rotting away, kind of like The Dark Tower series sans the sci-fi elements. But I digress). Said mage had found a way to kickstart the "magic tide" into coming in for a few thousand years again. The only problem? Doing so would require a lot of people to die. A LOT of people.
At first, the PCs (and my players) assumed this was just some dark plot to rule the world once magic was back in full swing. But as they became more acquainted with the BBEG, they pieced together that the entire reason he was trying to do this was because the last time magic had been around in appreciable amounts, it had been a golden age for humanity. To him, a million or so people croaking in some magic ritual to kickstart the process was an acceptable sacrifice for a few thousand years of peace and prosperity.
That was rather long-winded, but the point still stands. A strong motivation produces a strong character.
What is a BBEG?
>>44542300
A miserable pile of cliches and one liners.
>>44542300
>What is a BBEG?
Big Bad Evil Guy. Shorthand for "the main antagonist in a campaign."
>>44542254
Man this comic has some pretty cool looking characters, sure they look a little edgy, but damn the armor and weapons.
>>44542120
>BBEG granny
>>44542278
>One campaign I ran was set in a low-magic sort-of-Renaissance fantasy setting. The BBEG there was a mage who was attempting to reintroduce magic to the world. Magic, in this setting, was like a tide, with high points (when the world flourished) and with low points (when things weren't so great and the world was slowly rotting away, kind of like The Dark Tower series sans the sci-fi elements. But I digress). Said mage had found a way to kickstart the "magic tide" into coming in for a few thousand years again. The only problem? Doing so would require a lot of people to die. A LOT of people.
Sounds like a great setting and campaign. Care to elaborate some more about how things turned out? Also if you have time, expand on the settingbecause I'd like to steal it.
>>44542270
Once again, depends on the setting. I have always used the "realism, with a hint of coincidence," approach to interaction with the PCs. Assuming your player's characters aren't explicitly trying to grab his personal attention, encounters should be few and far between, but often enough so people don't forget about him.
Having the BBEG turn up once near the beginning then eluding the players until the end is, unfortunately, very liable to backfire. The easiest route I would recommend for people inexperienced with BBEGs is to have the party gather obvious hints of his/her/its presence quite often, usually through word of mouth or perhaps some distinguishing feature it leaves behind. This can also be accomplished via others who are in league with the BBEG itself, offering the party a reminder of its existence.
However, actual, direct contact with the BBEG should be left to a minimum unless, as stated earlier, there would be an explicit reason for him to be interacting with the party. Remember, most high-end villains likely have to deal with the shit of parties, the 'verses equivalent of Paladin orders and the like all the time, there's no particular reason why it would consider the players special to begin with, and would likely consider them beneath itself until they prove a threat.
>>44542315
>sure they look a little edgy
That's a slight understatement.
>>44542315
>little edgy
It was designed to be as edgy as it is possible.
>>44542358
With that edgy setting, the characters must be edgier, and the comic keeps introducing edgier character each chapter as a way to top the last ones in some sort of edgy vicious circle
>>44542381
At what point do you think it will hit edge saturation?
Are we on the cusp of creating an Edge Event Horizon?
>>44542347
>Sounds like a great setting and campaign. Care to elaborate some more about how things turned out? Also if you have time, expand on the setting because I'd like to steal it.
Not much to expand-on, setting wise. Literally all I did was take Europe c. 1650 or so and slap a mild fantasy coat on it. Just humans, magic is a thing, thinly-veiled pastiches of European nations at the time, etc.
As for how the campaign went? The party ended up offing the BBEG about halfway through the campaign, actually. And then they celebrated. And then the rough equivalent of the Thirty Years' War started. And then after a little while of that the party thought "you remember that mage we offed? Maybe he had the right idea."
>MFW the PCs fufil the BBEG's plot themselves.
>>44542406
I want to think that there are only three infinite things in the universe: Possible numbers combinations, FATAL's ability to surprise you each new page and Requiem's edginess, but I'm conscious that edginess has a limit and that we're getting close to it
>>44542352
That's some great advice and you sound like an experienced GM, m8. What sort of games do you run? Got any example of a BBEG you've used?
>>44542270
Be very wary about having the PCs meet your BBEG if they're in any way the type to shoot first, ask questions later. It's easy for the players to assume that the GM won't throw anything at them they can't handle, and to try and fight the BBEG when he shows up, even if you think it's obvious they should be running away.
>>44542310
How is "Big Bad Evil Guy" shorthand for "The Villain"?
>>44542574
The BBEG is more memorable and distinct than the V?
>>44542486
I'm a 40kfag, and as such usually play/GM the FFG lines set in the Warhammer 40k Universe. This, obviously, leaves some restrains inherently in the game, as the universe has already been written out and somewhat solidified to assist me as guidelines. However, I have generated some homebrew settings (usually utilizing the same rules, only a different narrative, I'm a sucker for the 40k PnP rule system), so I guess those antagonists would be better examples given my complete control.
One of the more exotic antagonists I have ever designed was utilized in a hyper-advanced setting taking place on a world governed by a totalitarian technocracy. The leaders of the planet are both the shadow government and real government, giving power to the citizens (officially organised into sectors with their own powerbase and authority) only to paint themselves as benevolent, while intentionally leaving loopholes throughout the place to give them effective absolute power. The twist being that this government are actually slaves to what could effectively be considered a kind of machine code they referred to as The System. This wasn't an AI or anything intelligent, but rather a set of rules engrained into the government's heads by the previous officials. The PCs would find themselves fighting through this system to overthrow the supposed tyrants, coming into contact with their agents and representatives, to destroy one of these antagonists near the end. It's up to them whether they discover that the tyrant had no free will or not, though I'll be sure to leave hints at it. Haven't quite gotten to that point yet, but in this particular setting the PCs will be lucky if they ever meet the BBEG in person at all, rather than some assassin or spy he sent to keep an eye on them.
Cont.
>>44542591
So is "Fatty fat story teller", but no one calls GM's FFST.
Just because it's "distinct" doesn't make it good.
>>44542550
>>44542550
that's exactly my problem because my players are kill first-talk later murderhobos. i'm afraid they'll tell me i'm railroading the game if i throw an early encounter with the BBEG which they can't win.
>>44542619
Well it's a common term that most of us know and use, so get over it
>>44542596
Another antagonist I've used is your typical Dark Sorcerer archetype. The players at the time were relatively new to PnP and wanted an experience akin to the most common "good vs. evil," fantasy settings, so I decided to come to a compromise and give them what they wanted, only with a twist.
The Sorceress in question was your typical knowledge-hoarder in a medium-magic setting. She was performing pretty damn amoral deeds in the pursuit of her craft, allowing her to grow alongside the players as she steeped further and further into the dark magics she sought. The players, a pretty typical party with a Rogue, Paladin, Fighter, Wizard and Cleric were all pretty much your different stereotypes of good, though their characters were still pretty legit regardless.
So I let them go on their quest to stop this dark Sorceress, believing her to be some evil witch that wanted nothing more than power and to see others suffer, it was only until they started fighting their way through her upper ranks of minions and actually reading her scattered fragments of diaries that they realized she was more of an anti-hero if anything.
Long story short, her mother was raped and killed by a bunch of those Lawful Evil bastards from the Nine Hells, who then proceeded to force her into their service. The main reasons why she's doing all of this in the campaign is a jumbled mess of emotion, primarily a desire for revenge on the fiends, with a hint of desire to ensure that nobody falls for their tricks and enslavement again. You can probably imagine the look on the Lawful Good Paladin's face when she was saved on the verge of death by the BBEG from a nasty looking Daemon (note: It's sometimes alight to exercise the power of your setting in order to assist or perform tasks that the PCs are incapable of, but make sure that it has meaning beyond "lel look at my super powerful NPC, guys.")
>>44542091
Give them a goal, a solid reason to pursue that goal, a clear plan of action for achieving that goal, a consistent level of resources they can utilise, and then let them go at it. The PCs play the part of wild-cards and antagonists in the BBEG's story, coming in and messing up the BBEG's plans and forcing them to adapt to changing circumstances.
Not only will it make the BBEG seem far more real and grounded, it will also enable the players to understand the BBEG's arc as a villain. They might start out confident and proud, become agitated, confused and unbalanced once the PCs start messing things up, then unbearably smug when they capture the PCs, then panicked and despairing when the PCs escape and cause even more trouble, before finally sinking into depression when the PCs successfully ruin everything.
The PCs could follow along with that arc, seeing the BBEG at every step of their terrible journey. And afterwards, they would remember the BBEG, because the BBEG wasn't just an obstacle. They were a person, whom the PCs dunked on mercilessly, making their life a living hell in the process.
It's a matter of empathy.
>>44542254
so vampire his moustache has fangs
>>44542619
>>44542591
>>44542574
Not this shit again
>>44542091
Be a talented writer.
>>44543634
This tbqh
Most people can't pull it off. Don't have a bbeg, op, have foils.
>>44542657
I bet you still say YOLO.
The most memorable villain for me was one that my players made through their actions.
The villain was just a normal dude until he was pushed into action due to the PC's actions.
The PCs messed with stability and lead the deaths of many cultures and people.
He did what he had to do to retaliate and keep his land from falling apart.
I didn't even intend for him to be the villain but my players keep fucking with this guy and his things and he said enough is enough
>>44542114
I've never thought about it like that. Not OP but I'll definitely consider this when I'm thinking up my next villain. It's wierd that I'd never considered it because I spend so much time thinking of what the PC's place in social systems is.
>>44543706
Just don't make a villain. There is no such thing irl.
>>44543755
Ted Bundy to Pol Pot we have and have had them of all flavours.
>>44543812
Why are they villains?
Isn't america a villain?
>>44542091
I recall a thread where the villain was actually mentoring the heroes all along, and eventually they stumbled upon a trove of messages congratulating them all, and telling them just how proud he was of them.
Pity I can't find the damn thing in the archives
>>44544458
I think I know what you're talking about. The BBEG was actually another player who was playing a single player campaign with the DM, right?
>>44542252
If you consider Nox an edgelord, then you consider a man crying into his beer and then punching someone out in a bar fight to be an edgelord.
Edge has lost all meaning, like magical realm.
>>44542114
yeah, but Sauron is still Sauron without mordor
>>44543862
America is the protagonist.
>>44542091
Think outside the box.
Make your bbeg a kid.
A kid with power.
>>44547245
that sounds cringey and lol so randumb
>>44544554
> actually another player who was playing a single player campaign
No, that was the old necromancer story.
The one mentioned had a dude who was almost an ascended mortal man who was very conscious that he was playing the bad guy and just kept going because he enjoyed it. He always let the players just barely win. Sometimes they didn't even know he had helped them. Sometimes he gave them gifts as a pat on the back for besting his latest challenge. He could have smashed them at any moment.
The players hated him.
He was just the DM given a new face.
>>44542091
Make him in such a way that despite being evil, he has redeeming qualities about him.
If he is a ruler of a whole country, then make it so that despite the whole Big Brother thing and secret forces policing the people, he gives his people mandatory education, technological and arcane advancements in both social and military branches, and policies that other kingdoms do not or will never issue because they are not enlightened enough.
Make it so that he gives free health care to his soldiers and their families along with a good pay, thus making them truly loyal to his cause.
Also make it so that despite looking like Morgoth/Sauron/Archaon/Abaddon/Vecna/Bane or whoever you want to base him off, have him have loved ones he cares for, or at least a person that would act as something as a conscience.
Make him also a former hero of your previous campaigns that grew bitter and cynical with how incompetent the various factions grew with not giving a fuck about the state of the world and wants to make it a better place by conquering it and making it safer for other races to live in.
Make him criticize the party for their murderhobo ways (if they played full murderhobo) instead of choosing a path where it wouldn't make them go murderhobo. Telling them how much they suck that instead of choosing something that he couldn't do in a similar situation the party experienced, they instead chose to go murderhobo. If at least one of them doesn't agree to what he says, then go Rock Falls, Everyone days as you empower your BBEG to the point that even the most hax abilities won't defeat him.
>>44548970
This is biggest fucking bullshit, do not do this OP
What >>44548970 has just described is babbies first morally grey villain, you may recognize him as the villain from every JRPG ever AKA "yes I'm going to destroy the world, but I have good reasons, you see I was abused when I was little"
Real people don't give a fuck if the drunk driver who killed the pregnant lady has 3 kids, a wife, and donates $10K to charity every month. You do bad things, you get punished.
Any player who would legitimately side with a man who tells him he's justified in destroying a city because it will purge the sinners/save us from a bigger evil/save his family if a poor fucking excuse for an adventurer. The BBEG could be lying, he could be wrong, fuck even if he's completely honest he's still gonna kill a fuckload of people.
A story in which 5 people risk their lives to thwart the plans of a madman before finally staying their hand just because the villain is really reasonable is a shitty story.
>>44549682
The level of salt in the seas just increased.
>>44549837
He's right though. Plus, most attempts at creating a morally ambiguous BBEG just fail miserably.
>>44548970
Or you could not make the villain a preachy Mary Sue, and instead an asshole with numerous character flaws that the players could exploit to succeed?
Sometimes it feels like /tg/ has trouble accepting the idea of villains that aren't nigh-omniscient, level-headed chessmasters. Like the idea of a character who lets their emotions drive their choices, or who makes bad decisions in the heat of the moment, or who never learns from their mistakes, or who is a straight-up bad strategist, is somehow bad and contrived. This despite many of fiction's most memorable villains being characters with gigantic personal flaws, that were frequently key to their downfalls.
Even Sauron was outwitted in the end. Sauron was terrified that Aragorn (or Gandalf, or any other of his powerful enemies) might wield the One Ring's power against him, which drew his attention away from the Cracks of Doom at a crucial moment. Meanwhile he left the Cracks open for anyone to just waltz on in, because he arrogantly assumed that no-one could sneak the Ring that far into Mordor without being captured first.
>>44544978
They're not at all similar, faglord. What a shit analogy.
>>44550108
this is a gem.
>>44542091
The biggest mistake DMs make when they create their bbg is that he takes over the story in a way. Every encounter and hardship ends up being about the BBG in some way, and you don't really get to know him through anything else than some cheesy "I can stand around and talk while you can't kill me because reasons" encounters leading up to some scripted boss fight, which is awful.
Have the BBEG be someone who grows along with the party. Fuck, have that greasy merchant the players sorted out in some early session start going further and further to oppose the players. Have it be some mundane shit, like a quarrel over a girl with the boy from the same village, or some imagined slight that sets the bad guy down the wrong path.
Don't make the entire campaign about him, have him be a force in the world that opposes the players, even if he's super ordinary.
Write down what his resources are, what his personality is like, what his motivation is and what his goals are.
Is he the corrupt magistrate who's working through bribery or bureaucracy to ruin the players plans, and eventually crosses the line into obsession or evil? Is he the king of the hobos, controlling legions of unwashed eyes and ears that follow the players moves? Is he some spoiled noble brat you knocked on his ass in a tournament and goes out of his way to one-up you?
A memorable bbeg is about having someone that means something to the characters or who you can have some kind of relationship to, not some terrifying Sauron figure. Those always end up lame anyway because it's always just about one-upping existing villains with evil and edginess.
>>44542091
A genuine motive besides evil, a bit of relatability and lotsof sheer coolness. My players loved the villain of my last campaign, who was a high-level evil wizard. After almost a year playing every week, they finally met him for the first time and almost got wiped. They were surprised by the supposedly extinction level evil guy ask them if they'd like to give up now and then mop the floor with them in three turns by fighting unfair, something that took the players by surprise. After that, they tool him seriously and really fucking hated his guts, though also loved his character.
>>44542156
>Sometimes full-edge isn't even that bad, provided you limit the BBEG's interaction and don't force his/her/its overly dark personality into every damn session or two.
This is about right. Characters like Sauron (as presented in LOTR) and Sheev aren't exactly deeply motivated or redeemable, but it doesn't really matter, because their appearances are limited enough that they mostly come off as a distant, menacing opponent. If they hung around all the time, they'd wear thin quickly.
>>44550180
Can't tell if you're being sincere or sarcastic.
I'm gonna think the best of you, and assume you were being nice. Thanks anon! <3
>>44550044
I tried a morally ambiguous villainess once. My PCs, to quote "Hit her in the face to make her ugly before she dies."
I mean, holy shit.
>>44550967
That is so absurdly petty I can't imagine anyone saying it without also masturbating
>>44550192
I actually plan on doing something similar to this in my next couple sessions. Not a BBEG, just some "boss" of a dungeon-like quest they are on.
This guy did some research and found some kind of power than could be harnessed in really bad ways. What did he do? Well he gave it to the scholars, because he didn't want it.
As things progress (I won't detail it here), he starts to get a bit unhinged, and decides that he should start using that power for himself. Problem is, the main way the power "grows" in him is by killing people.
How does he decide who to kill? Easy. This guy has a REALLY bad temper. Guy bumps into him on the street and doesn't say sorry? Blammo. Some woman denies his advances because he forgot to brush his teeth? Kablooie. Over time, this guy is just killing people for the smallest of slights, and one of the PCs is finding out that his family, who died in his backstory (big surprise), were killed by this guy because the guy was trying to kill all of them plus the PC because the PC gave him the finger one day. (The player is playing his character very short-tempered as well, so it does fit with the character).
>>44551115
Yeah, that fight was insanely, domestic-abuse level, ugly. The Fighter downed her, and described his follow-up attack as "A hard kick in the ribs."
The Paladin, when he got an AoO, said something like - "I give her the back of my mailed fist, and spit "Whore!" in her face. I hope she loses teeth."
It was unbelieveable. They fucking hated her, and they let it all out in the final battle.
>>44551322
Point of clarification, because it may sound a bit rail-roading here, but the PC's backstory was written in a way that he wanted to leave the details of his family's death up to me as the DM, so that there could be some plot hook(s) in there.
>>44542091
Have the BBEG steal something from the PCs.
The first time it happens, they will go to the ends of the fucking earth and beyond the laws of physics within the game to get their shit back.
>>44543686
>The villain was just a normal dude until he was pushed into action due to the PC's actions.
>He did what he had to do to retaliate and keep his land from falling apart.
I like this a lot. My players are surprisignly passive though, all of them want to be nice to people. I would have fun crashing a load of murderhobos into this though.
>>44543686
>Murderhobos consequences.
Half of my BBEG were guys pissed by my PCs.
>>44549837
Come on man, discuss, don't abuse. Don't lower the tone of this board.
>>44552570
I kind of see the point in making the BBEG just some guy the PCs pissed off. But doesn't that take away from the sense of epicness? I mean, defeating Darth Vader is way more satisfying than getting rid of some random dude who got bullyied by the players and is now out for revenge.
>>44547586
It all depends on the presentation. This isn't a deadpool Lich that's just all lolsorandumbXD for the hell of it, this is a lich that's so bored with undeath and ultimate power that he decided to start creating the most bizarre ways to fuck with people in part because he can and has very little better to do.
>>44542091
What made them what they are? They most likely didn't start out evil. Maybe they still aren't completely consumed by it.
Vader was driven to evil through love and fear of losing those he loved. Sauron was driven to evil through his desire to improve the world. All great villains are driven by a higher goal that has been twisted into something ugly and vile.
>>44545587
Because Sauron emerges from the valar creation myth and the events of the first age. Mordor relies more on Sauron existing than the other way round
>>44550108
Sauron was defeated due to the intervention of Eru himself. His plan actually worked perfectly. No one had a stronger will than himself, no one could throw the ring into the crack of Mount Doom on their own. Eru made Gollum trip, so no one actually destroyed the ring but the creator himself.
Sauron's plan worked so perfectly, GOD had to intervene
>>44553588
>Eru made Gollum trip
When you say it like that it sounds like Eru pushed Gollum into the volcano. What Tolkien's letter actually says is something much more vague akin to Eru making sure that what needed to happen happened, which could just mean that he made sure that Gollum was there at all knowing that it would result in the Ring's destruction but not that he personally made sure that he fell.
A mafia don or crime syndicate kingpin is always a great alternative to "le sephiroth edgelord black knight/Necromancer/demon #30287"
That or have them get robbed by pirates. Maybe a corrupt noblemen who lacks any kind of fighting ability and relies soley on henchmen and cunning to outwit you?
>>44553307
>Darth Vader
Implying my PCs aren't just a group of murderhobos with shit armor and wooden swords.
For exemple, a veteran soldier living in a farm with his wife and two sons. PCs shows up, destroying crops with a fireball in a fight against a wolf. They fled before the fire.
"Old Man" is not pleased. His wife died in the burning house. Father and sons decide to take revenge on PCs. Following them, finding more and more pissed npcs.
At the end it was a fucking army.
>>44542091
Make them a character, not just something the PCs hit until it dies.
>>44553588
>>44553667
Yeah, Gollum's fall was more of a "it's all part of God's plan" thing than a "God directly intervened to make some changes" thing. The only real examples of the latter after the world's creation are the Downfall of Numenor and Gandalf being resurrected.
>>44553667
Well, he knew he was going to trip if he was there, so he made sure he was there in the first place, or something like that. Actually if we think hard about it, he's omnipotent and omnipresent, so he made it ALL happen, or whatever, but you ge the point.
In this case, the point was that Sauron wasn't decieved, and his plan worked perfectly. Nobody could ever throw the ring into the fire by their own means, nobody had a willpower that powerful, surpassing Sauron's
>>44542114
Foucault pls
How's this: A bloodthirsty mercenary guild that will take any job as long as the price is right, no matter the morals. They field big hulking bruisers, typical infantry swordsman fighters, and musketeers wielding flintlock pistols and blunderbusses and they even have a primitive helicopter type aircraft armed with a matching primitive gatling gun for air support
Some of the reasons the PCs would run afoul of them:
>Word gets out that they are escorting a locomotion carrying stolen magical artifacts and priceless pieces of art
>They've been hired to mercilessly wipe out the relatively harmless [insert desired fantasy race] settlers whose dwellings block planned railroad construction
>PCs have such a notorious reputatuon that they are hired to assassinate the PCs as they are stepping on too many powerful people's toes
When in doubt, always go with corrupt mercenaries as bad guys. That or crime sydnicates. Perfect bad guy fodder for your precious little murderhobos to wade through
>>44553982
>so he made it ALL happen
Yes, Eru tells Melkor exactly that before the creation of the world.
>Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
>>44553972
>>44553982
I hate to continue this discussion because it's off topic, but I always thought Gollum's fall was poetic justice. Gollum fell under Sauron's spell all those years ago, and it's his greed for the ring (inspired by the ring itself) that led to Sauron's destruction. So basically, Sauron destroyed himself.
>>44542091
Make his motivations so arguably good that the PCs have to really think about if they should stop him. But make him over the edge that he's too extreme for the PCs to actually agree with.
>>44542091
Very, very easy. You don't make a BBEG. You just create people with motivations that you believe or know will run contrary to the PCs interests. Over time, you might find your planned BBEG is killed, or not as good a fit, or that the PCs have fixated on someone ELSE as the true enemy.
Easiest way? Have someone close to them, someone they love and trust, betray them for a completely logical but still unforgivable reason. They'll bleed themselves in misery over it.
>>44542091
Make him a mercenary/big guy/job(role) first, and a bbeg second. He just needs to do some bad stuff to accomplish his goals, his goal is not to do bad stuff.
Think payday, or Breaking Bad.
>>44542254
>game of thrones
>edgy
What?
Go full blunt
>>44553719
These kind of villains always infuriated me when I played, the sheer insolence! That this sniveling wretch whom I could end in several different ways wit you hear or half my senses dared cross me
>>44553588
But Sauron's plan wasn't to make the One Ring so powerful and tempting that no-one could bring themselves to discard it. That was just a side-effect of the Ring being so powerful in the first place. Sauron's actual plan was to just sit in Mordor and gather his forces, while using the Nazgul and roaming orc warbands to search for the Ring. He wanted the Ring back so badly, both because it would cement his dominion over Middle Earth, and because he was worried it might end up in the hands of someone with the will to use it against him (Aragorn, Gandalf and Galadriel are all stated to have such will, there were probably others).
Sauron's plan went to shit when Aragorn decided to march out to the Black Gates, and Sauron panicked, thinking Aragorn had the One Ring, and that he intended to use it to overthrow him. Or he thought Aragorn had the One Ring on him but lacked the will to wield its power, and so was marching to his death. Either way, Sauron drained the entire Mordor interior of troops, and marched them all down the Black Gates to utterly crush the last army of Men, unwittingly leaving a clear path for Frodo, Sam and Gollum to reach the Cracks of Doom.
Whether Sauron had an unparalleled will is irrelevant. He got outmaneuvered by people who understood his motives and goals perfectly, and were able to use that information against him.
>>44559166
>(Aragorn, Gandalf and Galadriel are all stated to have such will, there were probably others).
Yes, but it would have resulted in just a different Dark Lord coming to power rather than Sauron.
>>44559213
Also irrelevant. The point is that things didn't go according to Sauron's plans.
>>44559166
But the truth is, Sauron never thought someone would throw the ring into the fire, and that's exactly what happened. Nobody could. The ring was too tempting.
>>44559213
Even with the ring, I think the only one who could even try to actually overthrow Sauron would be Gandalf or even Saruman in his best days.
Mairon too was one of the most powerful and resourceful of the Maiar
Presence is a big one. Make sure that most of the time the problems the players deal with are directly caused by the BBEG, even (especially) if they don't figure it out until later. Have him have a clearly set goal that he is working towards, and make sure that the players have to deal with the results of his actions/prevent him from doing atrocities.
It's easy to make a morally ambiguous BBEG. Make sure his GOAL is noble (and no 'order' 'no more war or conflict' 'happiness for everyone' they're overdone, and not actually noble) but make sure that he is willing to do truly atrocious things to achieve it.
Campaigns to consider:
>The party knows who the BBEG is and where he was last seen and is hunting him, while cleaning up the horrors he's unleashed in his wake.
>The party and the BBEG both must get to McGuffin. The BBEG wants to do a BAD THING with it, while the party can do what they want with it.
>The BBEG rules the area where the party is located. He imposes dreadful laws on the populace and rules with an iron fist, but ruling a country is a means to an end, not the end goal of the BBEG. The party must discover this goal (on the first session) and stop him.
>Reverse of the first one. The BBEG is absurdly powerful and is hunting the party/one of the members of the party/ and NPC that the party cares about. He has a wide network of spies. The party must escape.
Bad characters rarely happen all by themselves. Bad characters are usually created by a bad plot.
>>44542091
I made one that was a Ogre paladin of Vecna, a combination hard to forget
>>44542406
Does anyone know where to get the latest chapter in English? I can't seem to find it been looking for it for months.
>>44542091
Depends on what he is for starters
Though rule #1 with bbeg's is exploit the players devlopment/interests in the campaign.
Players will hate npc's for the seemingly minor shit (or at least minor in the grand scheme) that hurts them.
Our vtm party despises a primogen simply because he is an easily irritable cunt who only cares about his power. To the point where he seems intent on killing or framing random kindred just because he doesn't like them.
He's not the actual bbeg. The BBEG actually hates having to do his goals, thus we're reluctant to try and kill him, instead we stop his cohorts from decimating the area.
Point being its the party that decides who the real bbeg is in most games that arnt singular forced missions.
>>44542091
Make a guy who steals the PCs stuff. If the campaign doesn't start about them, it sure as hell WILL.
>>44542091
Make him reasonable.
And make him not above escaping and making other plans when things start going bad.
Rest assured, your players will be so horribly annoyed that they'll remember him for ages to come
>>44542091
>>44561478
posting ASSgore
Currently running two separate campaigns.
BBEG #1 is currently attempting to wipe out all sapient life, bar himself. Magitek advances are, to his view, destroying the world, which to be fair they kinda are. However, not only is he an environmentalist, he's also completely batshit insane, and feels the only way to make the world right again is to wipe out that which harms it. His underlings believe they're only going to wipe out all who oppose him. They are wrong.
BBEG #2 is a worhipper of the God of Fire. In this world's Prometheus analogue, the first human hero got the God of Trickery drunk, and got him to steal the original True Flame from Fire's hearth before spreading it to humanity. While Humanity used to worship the God of Death (this isn't heavy metal, Death is a kindly old monk and also the LG god of justice), a relatively recent (200 years ago) coup put worshippers of Fire in control. To most people, the original myth has been twisted; Fire gave his flame to his most trusted priests, but the first hero got the Trickster to infiltrate the priesthood and spread it to everyone. The BBEG knows better, and is trying to perform a ritual to please his god and return every ember back where it came from.
Both are doing what they think is right. What they think is right is inarguably insane, but they're both dogmatic and unstoppable.
>>44551513
Best villain ever standing in the lower right corner
>>44561478
>undermeme
>>44560701
>>Reverse of the first one. The BBEG is absurdly powerful and is hunting the party/one of the members of the party/ and NPC that the party cares about. He has a wide network of spies. The party must escape.
i'd do this if my players weren't retards who'd directly rush into a fight with the all mighty BBEG
>>44542091
Caesar from FNV
>>44562830
Aren't you special, not liking Undertale?I'm not a fan of it either but you really shouldn't get so triggered.
Give them reasoning that is difficult to argue against.
He could be containing a bigger evil, like sacrificing virgins to avoid the returning of an evil God, overtaxing the populace to fortify the kingdom against imminent threat, razing supposed innocent villages to the ground that were, in fact, a base for some nasty witchcraft or something of the kind.
>>44565396
So, Mistborn's Lord Ruler?
>>44566006
Sorta.
>>44565396
Fable 3 plz go.
plz stay go.
-He has to have some kind of logical and somewhat relatable goal or intentions. He doesn't do evil things because he's evil, he does evilthings because he has a reason to do them or because he thinks it is the right thing to do these things.
The big bad evil doesn't always do evil things. Sometimes he does things that you can relate to, that are morally right. Even a broken clock tells the right time twice a day. Hitler loved animals. Kim Jong Un loves Basketball. Etc. Etc.
He has to show character traits. A bad guy who's only defining charactee trait is being gruesome is boring. Maybe he's gruesome because he's insecure and covers that by being an authoritarian asshole. He needs reasons why he is evil.
The player needs to have an emotional connection to him. In most games the big bad guy is just kind of there. It would be so much better if the player is invested in his opponent, maybe even feels for him.
The minions/armies etc. Of the bad guy should never be a homogeneous mass of evil peoples. Doesn't matter if they are orcs or humans. Not every german under hitler was a nazi and not every nazi was inherently evil.
>>44542574
It's big bad enemy guy
