D&D 4e General
Discuss anything directly related to D&D 4e here.
If you are GMing, remember to:
1. Give out at least one free "tax feat," like Expertise and defense boosters.
2. Use Monster Manual 3 math. Avoid or manually update anything with Monster Manual 1 or 2 math.
3. Actually follow the skill check DCs and rules for skill challenges in the Rules Compendium, which are presented as a scene-framing device for the GM, while the players are never formally told that they are in a skill challenge.
If you are a player, remind your GM of these things.
If you would like assistance with character optimization, tell us what the what the rest of the players are playing, what books are allowed, your starting level, the highest level you expect to reach, what free feats you receive, whether or not dragonmarks and HP-boosting backgrounds are allowed, whether or not themes are allowed, your starting equipment, how much you dislike item-dependent builds, and how much value you place on skills and rituals compared to combat benefits.
If you wish to talk about settings, 4e's settings are Points of Light (the planes and the natural world's past empires are heavily detailed in various sourcebooks and magazines), 4e Forgotten Realms, 4e Eberron, 4e Dark Sun, and whatever setting you would like to bring into 4e.
D&D 4e Compendium (for those who still have Insider subscriptions): http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/database.aspx
Assuming this actually catches on (with me being the first poster in over an hour, this seems unlikely)
Perhaps we can get a download for the character builder with CB loader and the relevant .part or .index files?
Anyway, I've been working on a setting inspired by points of light, or at least the civilized races being pushed back to the fringes by the onslaught of monsters. And was wondering what varying 4e DMs have done to keep traveling over hostile terrain fun, interesting and threatening?
There's a lot of general advice out there for that, but I was specifically curious as to how 4e DMs (with its longer combat than some other games) handled it. Maybe someone who's run 4e darksun (or similarly hostile settings) has some insights?
Link for the Internet Archive version of the Nentir Vale Wiki:
http://web.archive.org/web/20130520012550/http://community.wizards.com/nentir_vale/wiki/Nentir_Vale_Locations
Also, as a long-time furry, I disagree with your OP. 1 and 2 are unnecessary and for 3 Skill Challenges have always been presented as scene-framing devices ( the math update is good).
>>44489722
You should add Use Monster Vault instead of Monster Manual 1. It was just a math fixed version of MM1 minus shit no one cared about, like Orcus, and expanded stuff people liked like more flavors of Archon.
>>44491247
FYI the post-MM3 "math fixes" amount to a general (and consistent) increase of damage. The MM3 make-your-monster table is the same as the one in DMG1 except for the higher damage averages which can be found in the errata document.
What Monster Vault did right was not to fix the math, but to give more things to do to the monsters. You can see the development in the course of the game, from MM1 monsters having only one or two basic attacks to the latest monsters with a lot more interaction (reactions, triggers, auras and so on).
An easy fix would be to make liberal use of the many templates and alternate features sprinkled in a number of 4e books (open grave, draconomicons and so on).
>>44491049
>CB loader and the relevant .part or .index files?
If someone could provide links to such a thing, that would be appreciated. I would not know where to find them.
>travel
You could run skill challenges for the party in grand-scale style, with a single skill check representing a day's worth of events, or possibly even resolving the outcome of an entire battle. That said, when glossing over battles specifically, it would probably be best to use a fixed bonus for each character (e.g. level + X) rather than an actual skill bonus.
>>44491182
>Nentir Vale Wiki:
I will add this next time. I will also add a link to this, but point out that *only* the world histories should be regarded in this wiki: http://nentirvale.wikidot.com/world
>1
Throughout 4e's run, there was a certain designer and editor for the game named Greg Bilsland. He was in charge of combing over books, resolving balance issues, and writing up errata. Greg Bilsland himself used house rules to patch up the game's math with tax feats: https://web.archive.org/web/20101226194257/http://gregbilsland.wordpress.com/house-rules/
Think about that for a moment. If 4e's official errata-writer thinks it a good idea to hand out tax feats, then it is probably a good idea. The only reason why tax feats were never integrated into 4e proper is because the rest of the team was committed to trying to sweep it under the metaphorical rug.
>2
MM3 math is quite essential for smoother, faster combats. Sure, you could apply house rules to hasten combat instead, but why do that when there are already fixed monsters that are ready for a GM to use? In addition, MM 1 and 2 monsters simply are not that interesting or well-designed (and they dole out too many crippling conditions) compared to Monster Manual 3 monsters.
>3
The original DMG was never truly clear on skill challenges as scene-framing devices. The Rules Compendium contains the most up-to-date version of skill challenges in all of 4e.
>>44491247
I will.
>>44491575
Allow me to expound on your points in further detail.
Contrary to what others believe, monsters did *not* have their hit points or defenses lowered in any way by Monster Manual 3 math.
The Monster Manual 2 already lowered defenses across the metaphorical board (especially for elites and solos, which had overinflated defenses due to "increase elite/solo defenses" guidelines in the Dungeon Master's Guide 1) and lowered the HP multiplier of solos to four, rather than five.
What the Monster Manual 3's math *did* do was substantially increase the damage output of all monsters, and remove the accuracy bonuses and penalties of soldiers and brutes respectively. By doing this, it made all monster roles roughly equal with one another, and allowed combats to be faster and have less overall monster hit points, because the DM could then field less monsters and lower-leveled monsters (which added up to much less total hit points than before) and still meaningfully challenge characters. This was an indirect reduction in hit points and defenses, and it worked very well.
>>44491615
I didn't realize it was you. We've already gone though this in another thread. Simply put, I don't agree that 4e's math issues are such a big deal as you put it every time. I honestly don't care about what Bilsland did in his games, if we had to listen to what every designer says in his games no game would ever be done (see also Mike Mearls).
That said, I'm excusing myself from the thread, since I see no point in rehashing my arguments with you. Have fun with your math fixes.
>>44491846
Another reason to hand out feat taxes for free is because otherwise, players will gun for them at the first opportunity (they are far less conditional than most other feats and are simply *better* than the competition in many cases), and it is not unusual for the majority of a character's heroic-tier feats to go towards banal "pure math" feats.
Handing out math fix feats makes builds throughout *all* levels more interesting, because then characters can have feats that actually diversify playstyles, rather than just shore up numbers to be more in line with the game's math.
A particularly large offender is Melee Training, which was all but necessary for non-Strength-based melee types. Insultingly enough, it was downgraded simply to accommodate the paradigm of Essentials martial classes, and yet it was still practically mandatory for classes/subclasses like the battlemind and the Artful Dodger rogue.
ded thread
ded edition
>>44494496
But who was phone?
>>44492094
The funny thing with melee training is that every class that gets it wishes it didn't have to, and will always gun for alternatives.
I often use the homebrew strategy of giving monks, battleminds, rogues, O-bards and (for what it's worth) O-assassins a new at-will option each, which is just an MBA that uses their primary stat.
This works far nicer for rogues, O-assassins and O-bards than it does for battleminds and monks though, considering that battleminds get new at-wills as they level and monks get movement powers along side their at-will attacks
>>44496305
Another class that needs Melee training is the Avenger. Every avenger god has the skill domain...
>>44496305
The cleanest and most straightforward solution is to simply allow all characters other than Essentials martials to use their highest ability modifier for the attack roll and the damage roll of all basic attacks, even ranged basic attacks and powers that merely count as basic attacks.
>>44496456
Power of Skill for Overwhelming Strike as a melee basic attack should be an optional bonus, not nearly mandatory for an avenger.
>>44496456
Or is a half-elf
Hey /tg/, let's make a class!
What should it's power source be?
>martial
>arcane
>divine
>primal
>psionic
>shadow
What is the most complete 4e torrent? I have about 4 different downloads and I'd like to delete the duplicates but some are organized quite poorly.
>>44497588
A dual arcane/psionic (4e had set a precedent for this with the Essentials ranger and the Essentials bard [skald]) *ranged* defender themed around attracting enemies with siren calls would be quite interesting.
Ranged defenders have always been an unexplored designed space in 4e; they have been *possible* through certain builds, but never through a dedicated class.
>>44497653
waiting to see if there are more responses
Playing in three 4e games going. Got a sweet ranger multiclass rogue going, a battlemind, and a hybrid artificer/ warlord.
Anyone else hoping wizards will release the 4e builder for free when they decide to stop supporting it? I just want to download it, play around with it and add a few more options. I have the old one still.
Hey, can you guys give me some really bad race/class combos? I'm talking no stat synergy, no feat synergy, shared bonuses that don't stack, just the worst.
I tend to over-optimise by default, so I'm looking for debilitating race/class combos so all my optimisation only brings me up to average, rather than above my allies
I recently took part in a one-shot game of 4e where everyone played a striker
It was stupidly fun, we were fragile as hell, so every battle was a mad, desperate race to kill whatever we were fighting before they killed us.
I also threw a goblin into a dragon for a killing blow, because barbarians are fun
Where can I get all 4e books to download?
I already have one map but it is dated. It has only released books to early 2011
https://rogue-elements.obsidianportal.com/wikis/offline-character-builder
The torrent for newest update available for it can be found easily, have fun and remember to add this link next time.
>>44498743
Here's a link to the books.
>>44498818
Shit
>>44498743
Retrying.
Here is the link
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B-5cE1l_HXL4ZjA3NWFmMTYtYzY2ZS00MTNiLWE0ZmEtMzQ0ZTc5ZDRiM2M2&usp=sharing_eid&ts=567871fd#list
>>44498172
I don't remember races off the top of my head, but vampire is definitely the worst class in 4e. That, or plain jane blackguard.
>>44498879
I know what the worst classes are, the problem here is that the worst classes are boring, which is why I'm looking to limit myself by way of race/class combination, rather than just class choice
>>44498915
Thri-kreen Bard
>>44498592
The only problem with an all striker party is the lack of leaders. If you build the party right, you can have a tank (vampire) defender (CHA blackguard) controller (monk) stuff covered easily, but there's no force multiplication.
>>44499273
I was a thaneborn barbarian. Can't heal like a leader can, or grant attacks, but can hand out some nice buffs.
>>44498846
Thanks
>>44499273
I would hardly trust a vampire to be all that efficient a "tank," especially with unremarkable defenses and mediocre marking ability.
>>44498172
Setting aside the assassin (executioner), the bard (skald), the fighter (knight), the fighter (slayer), the ranger (hunter), the ranger (scout), and the rogue (thief) due to the way the aforementioned classes are significantly less dependent on preset key ability scores than any other classes in the game, here are the race/class combinations of 4e that have no ability score synergy whatsoever:
Controllers:
• Druid, Player's Handbook 2 (Wis/Con or Wis/Dex): N/A
• Druid, Protector (Wis/Con or Wis/Dex): N/A
• Invoker (Wis/Con or Wis/Int): Bugbear (+2 Str and Dex), kapak draconian (+2 Dex and Cha), vryloka (+2 Cha and +2 Str or Dex)
• Psion (Int/Wis or Int/Cha): Bugbear (+2 Str and Dex), bullywug (+2 Con and Dex), gnoll (+2 Con and Dex), half-orc (+2 Dex and +2 Str or Con), orc (+2 Str and Con)
• Seeker (Wis/Str or Wis/Dex): Githyanki (+2 Con and Int), hobgoblin (+2 Con and +2 Int or Cha), tiefling (+2 Cha and +2 Con or Int)
• Warlock, Binder (Cha/Dex or Cha/Int): Duergar (+2 Con and Wis), dwarf (+2 Con and +2 Str or Wis), goliath (+2 Str and +2 Con or Wis), longtooth shifter (+2 Str or Wis), minotaur (+2 Str and +2 Con or Wis), mul (+2 Con and +2 Str or Wis), orc (+2 Str and Con), svirfneblin (+2 Wis and +2 Str or Con)
• Wizard, Arcanist (Int/Con, Int/Dex, Int/Wis, or Int/Cha): N/A
• Wizard, Bladesinger (Int/Str, Int/Con, or Int/Dex): N/A
• Wizard, Mage (Int/Con, Int/Wis, or Int/Cha): Bugbear (+2 Str and Dex)
• Wizard, Sha'ir (Int/Con): Bladeling (+2 Wis and +2 Str or Dex), bugbear (+2 Str and Dex), drow (+2 Dex and +2 Wis or Cha), goblin (+2 Dex and +2 Wis or Cha), hengeyokai (+2 Dex and +2 Wis or Cha), kapak draconian (+2 Dex and Cha), longtooth shifter (+2 Str and Wis), razorclaw shifter (+2 Dex and Wis), thri-kreen (+2 Dex and +2 Str or Wis), vryloka (+2 Cha and +2 Str or Dex)
>>44499402
• Wizard, Witch (Int/Wis): Bugbear (+2 Str and Dex), bullywug (+2 Con and Dex), gnoll (+2 Con and Dex), halfling (+2 Dex and +2 Con or Cha), half-orc (+2 Dex and +2 Str or Con), kapak draconian (+2 Dex and Cha), kobold (+2 Con and +2 Dex or Cha), orc (+2 Str and Con), revenant (+2 Dex and +2 Con or Cha), satyr (+2 Cha and +2 Con or Dex), vryloka (+2 Cha and +2 Str or Dex)
Defenders:
• Battlemind (Con/Dex, Con/Wis, or Con/Cha): N/A
• Fighter, Weaponmaster (Str/Con, Str/Dex, or Str/Wis): N/A
• Paladin (Str/Cha, Str/Wis, or Cha/Wis): Bullywug (+2 Con and Dex), githyanki (+2 Con and Int), gnoll (+2 Con and Dex), tinker gnome (+2 Int and +2 Con or Dex)
• Paladin, Cavalier (Str/Cha): Bullywug (+2 Con and Dex), duergar (+2 Con and Wis), elf (+2 Dex and +2 Int or Wis), githyanki (+2 Con and Int), githzerai (+2 Wis and +2 Dex or Int), gnoll (+2 Con and Dex), razorclaw shifter, shadar-kai (+2 Dex and +2 Int or Wis), thri-kreen (+2 Dex and +2 Str or Wis), tinker gnome (+2 Int and +2 Con or Dex), wilden (+2 Wis and +2 Con or Dex)
• Swordmage (Int/Str, Int/Con, or Int/Wis): Kapak draconian (+2 Dex and Cha)
• Warden (Str/Con or Str/Wis): Changeling (+2 Cha and either +2 Dex or Int), eladrin (+2 Int and +2 Dex or Cha), gnome (+2 Int and +2 Dex or Cha), kapak draconian (+2 Dex and Cha), kenku (+2 Cha and +2 Dex or Int), pixie (+2 Dex and +2 Int or Cha), shade (+2 Dex and +2 Int or Cha)
Leaders:
• Ardent (Cha/Con or Cha/Wis): Bugbear (+2 Str and Dex)
• Artificer (Int/Con or Int/Wis): Bugbear (+2 Str and Dex), kapak draconian (+2 Dex and Cha), vryloka (+2 Cha and either +2 Str or Dex)
• Bard (Cha/Con, Cha/Int, or Cha/Wis): Bugbear (+2 Str and Dex)
• Cleric, Templar (Str/Wis, Str/Cha, Wis/Con, or Wis/Cha): N/A
>>44499421
• Cleric, Warpriest (Wis/Con): Bugbear (+2 Str and Dex), changeling (+2 Cha and +2 Dex or Int), eladrin (+2 Int and +2 Dex or Cha), gnome (+2 Int and +2 Dex or Cha), kapak draconian (+2 Dex and Cha), kenku (+2 Cha and +2 Dex or Int), pixie (+2 Dex and +2 Int or Cha), shade (+2 Dex and +2 Int or Cha), vryloka (+2 Cha and +2 Str or Dex)
• Druid, Sentinel (Wis/Con): Bugbear (+2 Str and Dex), changeling (+2 Cha and +2 Dex or Int), eladrin (+2 Int and +2 Dex or Cha), gnome (+2 Int and +2 Dex or Cha), kapak draconian (+2 Dex and Cha), kenku (+2 Cha and +2 Dex or Int), pixie (+2 Dex and +2 Int or Cha), shade (+2 Dex and +2 Int or Cha), vryloka (+2 Cha and +2 Str or Dex)
• Runepriest (Str/Con or Str/Wis): Changeling (+2 Cha and either +2 Dex or Int), eladrin (+2 Int and +2 Dex or Cha), gnome (+2 Int and +2 Dex or Cha), kapak draconian (+2 Dex and Cha), kenku (+2 Cha and +2 Dex or Int), pixie (+2 Dex and +2 Int or Cha), shade (+2 Dex and +2 Int or Cha)
• Shaman (Wis/Con, Wis/Dex, or Wis/Int): N/A
• Warlord, Marshal (Str/Int, Str/Wis, or Str/Cha): Bullywug (+2 Con and Dex), gnoll (+2 Con and Dex)
Strikers:
• Assassin, Dragon Magazine #379 (Dex/Con or Dex/Cha): Longtooth shifter (+2 Str and Wis)
• Avenger (Wis/Dex or Wis/Int): Dragonborn (+2 Cha and +2 Str or Con), orc (+2 Str and Con)
• Barbarian, Player's Handbook 2 (Str/Con, Str/Dex, or Str/Cha): N/A
• Monk (Dex/Str, Dex/Con, Dex/Wis, or Dex/Cha): N/A
• Paladin, Blackguard (Str/Cha): Bullywug (+2 Con and Dex), duergar (+2 Con and Wis), elf (+2 Dex and +2 Int or Wis), githyanki (+2 Con and Int), githzerai (+2 Wis and +2 Dex or Int), gnoll (+2 Con and Dex), razorclaw shifter, shadar-kai (+2 Dex and +2 Int or Wis), thri-kreen (+2 Dex and +2 Str or Wis), tinker gnome (+2 Int and +2 Con or Dex), wilden (+2 Wis and +2 Con or Dex)
• Ranger, Player's Handbook 1 (Str/Dex, Str/Wis, or Dex/Wis): Githyanki (+2 Con and Int), hobgoblin (+2 Con and +2 Int or Cha), tiefling (+2 Cha and +2 Con or Int)
>>44499432
• Rogue, Scoundrel (Dex/Str, Dex/Int, or Dex/Cha): N/A
• Sorcerer, Elementalist (Cha/Con): Bladeling (+2 Wis and +2 Str or Dex), bugbear (+2 Str and Wis), elf (+2 Dex and +2 Int or Wis), githzerai (+2 Wis and +2 Dex or Int), longtooth shifter (+2 Str and Wis), razorclaw shifter (+2 Dex and Wis), shadar-kai (+2 Dex and +2 Int or Wis), thri-kreen (+2 Dex and +2 Str or Wis)
• Sorcerer, Player's Handbook 2 (Cha/Str or Cha/Dex): Duergar (+2 Con and Wis), githyanki (+2 Con and Int)
• Vampire (Dex/Cha): Duergar (+2 Con and Wis), dwarf (+2 Con and +2 Str or Wis), genasi (+2 Int and +2 Str or Con), githyanki (+2 Int and Con), goliath (+2 Str and +2 Con or Wis), longtooth shifter (+2 Str and Wis), minotaur (+2 Str and +2 Con or Wis), mul (+2 Con and +2 Str or Wis), orc (+2 Str and Con), svirfneblin (+2 Wis and +2 Str or Con), warforged (+2 Con and +2 Str or Int)
• Warlock, Class Compendium (Con/Int, Con/Cha, or Cha/Int): Bugbear (+2 Str and Dex), longtooth shifter (+2 Str and Wis), razorclaw shifter (+2 Dex and Wis)
• Warlock, Hexblade (Cha/Con, Cha/Dex, or Cha/Int): Longtooth shifter (+2 Str and Dex)
Defender/Striker:
• Barbarian, Berserker (Str/Dex or Str/Int): Duergar (+2 Con and Wis), half-elf (+2 Con and +2 Wis or Cha)
>>44499402
>I would hardly trust a vampire to be all that efficient a "tank," especially with unremarkable defenses and mediocre marking ability.
I remember Vampire being a pretty good HP tank, at lest at lower levels. Yeah, defenses are nothing to write home about, but he keeps regaining HP at an accelerated rate. Could be me just miscalculating something tho.
>>44498846
Is there a part 1 on the google drive?
>>44499467
Don't see it.
Besides, it seems to have every book on 4e on there.
>>44499525
>>44499467
Never mind, I found it, it just has half the books the part 2 folder has.
>>44499464
No, the way vampires tank is via hybrid vampires or other classes multiclassed into vampire
The best off-defender out of the striker classes is the iron soul monk.
>>44499806
I was probably thinking of hybrid vampire/paladin or blackguard.
Wait, what's the difference between a hybrid and multiclassing?
>>44499893
Hybrid mashes together two half-classes (taking the features predetermined by the hybrid version).
Multiclass is done through feats and allows you to swap a small numer of powers from class A with class B.
>>44499893
hybrid is gluing two half-classes together. Multiclassing is just taking feats that let you grab stuff from another class, and possibly using paragon multiclassing to have full access to the other class's power.
>>44499915
paragon multiclassing is only worth it if you're going for a cheesy avenger/ranger build
If I play as a human, is taking Action Surge as my extra feat generally a safe bet, or are there better feats?
>>44499963
it's safe, but there are always better feats, even if you're getting the feat taxes for free
>>44499806
>The best off-defender out of the striker classes is the iron soul monk.
This is absolutely correct. A very high AC, Constitution as a secondary score, and the ability to deny shifting leads to quite an efficacious off-defender.
>>44499963
Action Surge was a prime feat during the early days of 4e, but it has since been overtaken by many other feats. You should prioritize "tax feats" and feats that actually improve your class's specialties before ever considering Action Surge.
Also, do remember that for most human characters, Heroic Effort is a superior choice to an additional at-will attack power.
>>44500024
Oh OK.
What Tax feats are for the Monk?
And what are for the Paladin?
>>44500090
tax feats are the same for everyone, improved defenses, and the expertise for whatever weapon/implement you plan on using.
Paladin is a bit different, they have devout protector expertise if you're using a shield and charisma as your main stat
>>44500112
Monk is Fist.
How is improved Initiative?
>>44500090
The monk's go-to feats are either Melee Training or Internalize the Basic Kata depending on your weapon setup, Unarmored Agility, an appropriate Expertise feat, an appropriate Superior Implement Training feat, an appropriate Implement Focus feat (helpful given an abundance of AoE attacks), and Crashing Tempest Style.
The paladin's most crucial feats are Devout Protector Expertise (note the unconditional shield bonus to AC), Mighty Challenge (only for Strength/Charisma paladins), Blessed Strength (only for half-orc), Group Defense (only for half-elves), Virtuous Recovery, and whatever Essentials defense-boosting feats you can afford.
>>44500154
A 4e monk actually has very, very few mechanical reasons to *not* wield a weapon in each hand. Crashing Tempest Style makes a club a must-have, Slashing Kama Style and Shielding Whirlwind Style offers alternatives for sickles and staffs, and, at the paragon tier, Starblade Flurry and the Unseen Hand paragon path make daggers/shurikens and hand crossbows invaluable tools for a monk.
A monk is eligible for virtually nothing of note that absolutely requires free hands.
>>44500154
As for Improved Initiative, it is a relatively "safe" feat, but you have much better options available to you. Monks have many feats that they would like to take.
Anyone have links to any homebrew classes and such. Always looking to add more to the game.
>>44500206
>>44500219
What about Improved unarmed strike and Improved Defenses at level 1?
I wanna do a fisty monk.
>>44500229
If you want a fisty dude, make a fighter, then take the monk multiclass feat "master of the fist" to get monk unarmed strike. Go either brawling style or tempest style, depending on whether you want to lock down one enemy, or harry multiple enemies
Fighters actually get unarmed weapon attacks, as opposed to implement attacks, which makes them better suited for use of the monk unarmed strike than the monk.
Improved unarmed strike is really bad for a monk, decent for an unarmed fighter, but really bad for a monk
>>44500229
Improved Monk Unarmed Strike is a nearly useless feat, as a monk will be using their implement powers nearly every turn.
Improved Defenses is not a high-priority feat for a monk; the monk feats I mention in >>44500206 are higher-priority.
Between monk weapon feats, Ki Focus weapons, and, for Small/Tiny monks, Goblin Totem weapons; monks actually have few reasons to wield weapons unless they are at level 1 and have access to neither monk weapon feats nor magic weapons. The one character build that actually has the strongest mechanical reason to use pure unarmed strikes is a Tempest Technique fighter with the Master of the Fist monk multiclass feat from Dragon Magazine #404.
>>44500266
OK. Seems kinda stupid, but OK.
>>44500294
master of the fist + improved monk unarmed strike + shock trooper paragon path = greataxe punches
>>44500294
>>44500301
>>44500266
I kinda wanted to be Mr Miyagi.
>>44500301
Yeah, monks are both really cool, and really, really dumb in 4e.
They get a load of awesome powers that let them fly across the battlefield like a lethal pinball, but they suck at punching things and function like a melee wizard
>>44500336
Monks do that, they just don't need to punch to do it.
>>44500336
Go centered breath monk, take ki-focus expertise and internalize the basic kata.
Ki focus expertise applies to both weapon attacks and implement attacks, so it's good for punchy monks.
>>44500365
So Stone Fist is not Punchy.
>>44500331
Yes, that is true.
>>44500336
If having "monk" on your character sheet matters that much to you, you could be a monk of any build (Iron Soul is probably the best monk build overall, really, and Eternal Tide and Stone Fist are by far the worst) and say that the weapons you "wield" are being merely kept on your person and never drawn.
It does not particularly matter given that all of a monk's attack powers are implement powers.
>>44500365
Such a monk *still* wants to wield a weapon anyway, if only for Ki Weapon, Crashing Tempest Style, and the like.
A 680 gp Belt of the Brawler could arguably substitute for a club, but that would still be missing the opportunity for a Ki Weapon.
>>44500374
Here is my personal assessment on the various monk builds:
The Iron Soul monk is easily the most efficacious of the monks due to having Constitution as a secondary score, an unconditional +1 bonus to AC, and the ability to prevent enemies from shifting. The lattermost benefit locks down enemies adjacent to the monk, thereby keeping them targetable by close attacks such as Five Storms, and also allowing the Iron Soul monk to make use of their naturally high AC (with Unarmored Agility) and Constitution.
The Desert Wind monk is a good runner-up to the Iron Soul monk, but only due to its ability to gain a quick burst of damage via its Blistering Flourish at-will, which increases the damage of Desert Wind Flurry of Blows due to the Rules Compendium's definition of "attack." However, such a monk instantaneously becomes near-worthless when faced with any enemies with fire resistance, such as all demons (variable resistance) and all devils. Charisma is a reasonably useful ability score.
The Centered Breath monk comes third. Sliding enemies with a flurry is always useful, particularly with the Deadly Draw feat. Wisdom is a very useful ability score to have. This is the "middle of the pack" monk build.
Far, far below the Centered Breath monk are the Eternal Tide and Stone Fist monks, both of which are coincidentally Strength-based. Strength is not an especially useful ability score since it only really affects Athletics checks in practice. Which one is worth depends on your level. At heroic, Eternal Tide is worse than Stone Fist since it deals the lowest damage and you will wind up trying to "pull" an enemy already adjacent to you, but at paragon and epic, it is better than Stone Fist because it can cluster up enemies for close attacks and trigger Deadly Draw. It is still not very good, however. Stone Fist's problem comes from its base flurry being nothing more than 3 + Strength modifier damage, which makes it dreck compared to other flurries in the long term.
>>44497653
Ranged defenders and melee controllers are both a bit weird because they share a lot of design space, like moving enemies, area effects and action denial.
>>44500389
OK I will make a punchy Iron Soul Monk
>>44500374
Stone fist is punchy, but it isn't Mr Miyagi
>>44500402
Iron Souls work best with weapons, so punchy might not work well. They're amazing for Wuxia style characters though - the Paragon Path Soaring Blade is made for this as well.
>>44500420
So Centered Breath punchy best punchy, or Desert Wind?
>>44500420
unseen hand is the craziest PP for iron soul monks though
I made an unseen hand monk in a game a few years back that I played as a cowboy, fluffing the hand crossbow as a revolver. Combining the unseen hand feature with starblade flurry, I got 4 targets with every flurry of blows, which was fluffed as fanning the hammer on the revolver
>>44500441
centered breath for Mr Miyagi, desert wind for Ryu or Ken.
>>44500393
Controllers do not quite have the same degree of catch-22 as defenders, however. That is why I believe a ranged defender is an unexplored design space, perhaps one that forces an enemy to chase after the defender, much like a ranged version of a swordmage.
Long ago, I had attempted to improve upon someone else's homebrew effort at a ranged, pacifistic, divine defender. You can see what little I had written here: https://warosu.org/tg/thread/S16495943#p16500298
>>44500402
>>44500420
>>44500441
As I mentioned in >>44500380, you could be a monk of any build and say that the weapons you "wield" are being merely kept on your person and never drawn.
>>44500449
Centered Breath it is.
He gets Improved Unarmed Strike and Unarmored Agility
>>44500516
take internalize the basic kata, not improved unarmed strike
internalize the basic kata isn't just the mechanically superior option in this case, it's also the better one fluff-wise.
Mr Miyagi doesn't hit with raw force, he hits with finesse and skill
>>44500534
OK Now that I have actually found it, it does seem very Miyagish.
>>44500451
A pacifistic, divine defender might be a problem because you don't have enough of a numerical effect. At least clerics buff their allies considerably, and are able to heal as well.
>>44500586
>>44500534
Which book is that feat in?
>>44500608
Pretty sure it's in a Dragon article.
>>44500608
dragon magazine issue 404
Yeah, it's one of THOSE feats
>>44500623
Dragon 404 had amazing stuff for monks in general if I remember correctly. Isn't Starblade Flurry and SPINNING STAFF DEFLECTS MISSILES from that as well?
>>44500623
>>44500635
OK Thanks for all your help!
>>44500635
starblade flurry was in PHB3, along with the monk itself, shielding whirlwind style was in that issue though
Does 4e have an srd like Pathfinder?
Ive been thinking of running it for my group but I can afford physical copies oc the books.
>>44502004
You probably want the offline builder, it basically has everything like an SRD.
There's also an official SRD, but it needs an insider subscription.
>>44489722
Oh neat, I liked 4th edition. Leader best role.
How do you guys speed up combat? I'm not sure if it's the edition itself or my players but it takes a gods age for combat to go on if it is challenging of any sort of degree, but if it isn't challenging, they'll just 15 minute workday it after steamrolling it.
I've already tried having it so that they roll damage and attack at the same time, but that's not worked.
>>44502138
Thanks m8 <3
>>44502853
limit it to 2 minutes/player/turn. That, with 4 players+the monsters turn means they still have 10 minutes to think through their move; should be more than enough.
>>44502853
Power cards and a timer. However in my experience it's generally a problem with specific players who get stuck.
>>44502176
Warlord best girl
>>44503744
Bravura Warlord mai waifu.
Every roll is nerve wracking
I'm DMing a lvl 2 party with an Avenger and a Ranger. Can the Avenger be competitive against the Ranger if i give him Pelor's sun Blessing?
>>44503842
My waifu is Vryloka Sorcerer|Warlord Hybrid with Arcane Implement proficiency to make her sword also an implement.
Go as Striker or as Leader as you need.
So are invokers OP or are they not?
>>44489722
>mfw there's more autistic number crunching here than in a fucking 3.x thread
>>44503932I
didn't played or dm one, but wizards/mages aren't considered better?
>>44504157
>3.x thread
You mean PF threads? We don't really have 3.5 threads anymore, aside from the troll ones.
>>44503907
>>44503842
Paladin||Bravura, why yes I'd like to mark you while I inspire my group to punch everything.
>>44500442
>The monk's go-to feats are either Melee Training or Internalize the Basic Kata depending on your weapon setup, Unarmored Agility, an appropriate Expertise feat, an appropriate Superior Implement Training feat, an appropriate Implement Focus feat (helpful given an abundance of AoE attacks), and Crashing Tempest Style.
>The paladin's most crucial feats are Devout Protector Expertise (note the unconditional shield bonus to AC), Mighty Challenge (only for Strength/Charisma paladins), Blessed Strength (only for half-orc), Group Defense (only for half-elves), Virtuous Recovery, and whatever Essentials defense-boosting feats you can afford.
I have a character going for Unseen hand when we hit Paragon. Will be a lot of fun.
>>44504249
...huh, that's the wrong quote.
>>44504157
Yeah well we have an actual autistic running the numbers.
>>44500336
If you're a brawler fighter, then you're still Mr. Miyagi. You're just a Mr. Miyagi that can headlock a dragon and tell it go to home and be a family man or else you'll never stop punching.
>>44506750
That wasn't what I was getting at in that post.
I wanted to be sole punchy and suggestions were generally to use feats with non-fist weapons.
Thankfully, I did build a punchy monk.
His name is Yok Wai-Kwee and he serves Bahamut
His holy symbol is a dragon tattoo that covers his chest.
The party of a dwarven beastmaster and a revenant paladin kept meeting at the same taverns by coincidence, so we decided to bro it up.
>>44500593
That is why such a hypothetical class would have to be revised considerably.
>>44502853
Allow your players to familiarize themselves with their characters; combat will assuredly go by more quickly once players grow out of their phase of combat choice paralysis.
>>44503885
Heroic-tier avengers are generally on the much lower end of 4e's strikers; they are not as bad as vampires or certain Essentials strikers, but without a consistent source of extra *damage* and without options to help assure that they qualify for their Oath of Enmity rerolls, they will have some trouble. Rather than giving the avenger Pelor's Sun Blessing, I would allow the avenger to take Painful Oath as a heroic feat with 1 less damage.
>>44503907
>>44504220
Neither sorcerer|warlord nor paladin|sorcerer have all that much synergy to them by the standards of hybrid builds. A hybrid paladin (cavalier) grants an amazing package of benefits, including Defender Aura, a minor action 1/encounter heal, and plate and heavy shield proficiency for a feat, but that goes well with any Charisma-based character.
>>44504157
There has been no actual number crunching in this thread so far, unless you consider advising players on class option selection "number crunching."
That said, I do wish that those asking for character optimization suggestions would follow the protocol listed down in the opening post, so as to allow everyone to provide clearer and more relevant advice. Additionally, this person seems to be misinterpreting our suggestions entirely.
>>44507004
You may wish to branch out into weapons anyway, if only for a Ki Weapon, Crashing Tempest Style, and the like. As I have mentioned twice in this thread already, you could say that the weapons you "wield" are being merely kept on your person and never drawn; this flavor note does not particularly matter given that all of a monk's attack powers are implement powers.
>>44507560
How thunderously boring.
Also
>being this up your own ass
>>44507560
Thanks for breaking all this down. I know I appreciate it.
>>44507711
What do you find dull in particular?
>>44507803
Droning on and on about optimization. Was under the impression that 4e was super balanced with the errata. Focusing this much on character options always strikes me as uninteresting. Its what made me dislike the character builder quite a bit.
>>44507560
>A hybrid paladin (cavalier) grants an amazing package of benefits, including Defender Aura, a minor action 1/encounter heal, and plate and heavy shield proficiency for a feat, but that goes well with any Charisma-based character.
Good point. Got any ideas for a build like that? I'm kindof in love with bravura, which means that's where the hybrid talent would be going. Could still get armored warlord (and yes, I know battlefront leader isn't that great) for defense.
I have no idea what to do with the cavalier side, aside from just be happy with it I guess.
>>44507870
What would you discuss instead?
How do I into runepriests?
>>44507870
I have been trying to start general threads concerning the lore (and only the lore) of my favorite setting, Planescape, although they have received zero interest in the past few days.
In comparison, mechanical discussion and queries on character optimization appear to be a somewhat more popular topic of discussion. They provide a clear source of discourse that posters can present fact-based information for, as opposed to simply touting subjective opinions.
>>44507873
What is it that you would like to accomplish as a Bravura Presence warlord in the first place? What appeals to you about it that you would like to emphasize? Depending on what you like about it, you could very well be better off as a plain dragonborn or bravura warlord without any hybrid classing.
Bear in mind that, as written, Brash Assault is one of the worst powers in the entire game, because it leaves the choice purely in the enemy's hands, and thus the enemy can choose whatever benefits it most. Have you proposed to your DM that this be altered?
Additionally, could you please answer as many questions from the character optimization inquiry protocol listed in the opening post as possible?
>>44507955
The runepriest is one of the easiest classes in 4e to optimize for, simply because it has very few options available to it. It has a Strength/Constitution build and two Strength/Wisdom builds, and due to the way 4e's defenses work, you will probably want a Strength/Wisdom build, unless you are aiming for the Hammer of Vengeance paragon path.
Could you please answer as many questions from the character optimization inquiry protocol listed in the opening post as possible?
>>44508046
everything allowed, free versatile expertise, free paragon defenses at lvl 11, otherwise irrelevant to me, i only like theorycrafting
>>44507953
Personally, I'd be more interested in tips for using the system in terms of GMing, like how the fuck to handle skill checks so that they're not boring as oatmeal. And maybe how to handle a party so that players can play what they want instead of having to fill obligatory class roles.
>>44508046
>Bear in mind that, as written, Brash Assault is one of the worst powers in the entire game, because it leaves the choice purely in the enemy's hands, and thus the enemy can choose whatever benefits it most. Have you proposed to your DM that this be altered?
Unless you take Harlequin style. Which makes your defenses kinda skyrocket, which combines well with being a defender.
>>44508097
DMG2 has some real good tips for skill challenges, could check that one out.
The only obligatory role is leader, because you absolutely need some way to recover in battle. If you want to do away with that... probably hand out minor action healing potions by the gallon, and let second wind be usable when you get knocked out, if you still have it unused.
>>44508153
I'll have to try DMG2, because I have never seen it handled well. In fact it was one of the most infuriating things about my inevitably terrible 4e experiences.
>>44508083
Be of a Strength/Wisdom race (bladeling, goliath, longtooth shifter, minotaur, or svirfneblin), and take Defiant Word or Serene Blade for your Runic Artistry.
Select Word of Diminishment (use only its Rune of Destruction aspect) and Word of Exchange as your at-will powers, Flames of Purity as your level 1 encounter attack power (middling yet probably the best choice here), and Rune of the Undeniable Dawn as your level 1 daily attack power (likewise middling yet the most optimal of powers from this category). Take a skill power at level 2, because runepriests have no good utility powers at this level, although Mark of Skilled Effort comes close for group skill checks and Rune of the Final Effort is barely passable for combat.
Take Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) and pair it with a light shield as a Defiant Word runepriest, or Weapon Proficiency (fullblade) as a Serene Blade runepriest. At level 2, take Shield of Sacrifice as your utility power, because it is far and away the best runepriest power at that level.
>>44508097
The skill chapter of the Rules Compendium will be very helpful for that. Remember that skill challenges are scene-framing devices *for the DM*, not for the players to be overtly aware of.
I will address your point on "obligatory class roles" in my next post.
>>44508114
Harlequin Style causes your defenses to increase against the target only, and the target certainly is not going to be making the attack against you. It is a good feat for a catch-22 defender|warlord build (is that what you are aiming for?) but poor for any other warlord, who would be better off using other at-will powers that actually assist the party.
>>44508344
What helps a lot is to simply not tell your players that they are in a skill challenge, if you are doing a simple one.
There were quite a few dragon articles on the subject too.
My personal variation is:
>skill challenges are turn based
>instead of failing when a number of failures are amassed, there are degrees of failure depending on how many turns the challenge is finished in
>no two players can use the same skill in the same turn, if they want to do that, they can assist another player with that skill roll
>otherwise follow the "normal" skill challenge examples with events based on success/failures, limits on how many successes a single skill can bring, etc.
>>44508451
This, there's such a big difference between "Okay, you pass Athletics and manage to hop across rooftops to catch up" and "Okay, you succeed. That's 3 successes so far against one failure."
>>44508097
>>44508414
The only truly necessary role is leader. As long as a party has a leader, it can be built to compensate for a lack of other roles.
If you are receptive to anecdotal evidence, earlier, I was in a somewhat lopsided party: a Sorcerer-King Pact warlock (ranged striker with some melee), a ranged Virtue of Cunning bard (ranged leader), a Staff of Defense wizard (ranged controller), and a Desert Wind monk (melee striker).
One would think that a predominantly ranged party without a defender would be torn apart and defenseless. That simply has been the case, because our party is actually reasonably optimized for defense: the warlock's Shadow Walk class feature, Rod Expertise feat, and Armor of Dark Majesty all lend survivability; the bard's hide armor and light shield trend naturally towards defense, and the Virtue of Cunning can help slide allies away from enemies; the wizard is actually quite durable thanks to Staff of Defense with a Defensive Staff, and can avoid opportunity attacks using the Staff Expertise feat; and of course, the monk enjoys a very high AC with the Unarmored Agility feat and regularly keeps enemies where they are by knocking them prone with Dragon's Tail and Eternal Mountain.
In this case, the party had shored up their weakness through the proper investments. It has paid off well, seeing how the party had been blazing through encounters of a higher level than the party.
Similar party configurations can compensate for a lack of a striker (damage optimization is one of the easiest things to accommodate), and for a lack of a controller (every class has debuffs and AoE to some degree, all defenders apply their own form of battlefield control, and there are dedicated AoE strikers like the monk and the sorcerer).
I should correct myself: the leader role is not quite mandatory, but it is the hardest to compensate for the absence of. It helps to have an off-healer or two in the party, such as the paladin with their Lay of Hands.
>>44508414
>Harlequin Style causes your defenses to increase against the target only, and the target certainly is not going to be making the attack against you. It is a good feat for a catch-22 defender|warlord build (is that what you are aiming for?) but poor for any other warlord, who would be better off using other at-will powers that actually assist the party.
I'm not sure what exactly I'm aiming for yet, I just thought that this hybrid is interesting, and wouldn't mind discussing build ideas.
>>44507870
It's a Touhoufag thread. Don't expect anything else.
>>44508602
A paladin (cavalier)|warlord can be a fairly efficient catch-22 defender, but your warlord side will suffer from it somewhat.
You will, sadly, have to sacrifice Bravura Presence. Chainmail and a light shield will simply not do for a defender, and sacrificing Combat Leader and a feat just to gain scale and a heavy shield is too great an investment. You are better off taking Hybrid Talent (Paladin Armor Proficiency) for plate and a heavy shield.
If it makes you feel better, Bravura Presence is a warlord presence that the entire party might not be able to make good use of anyway, since it is very basic attack-reliant.
You will want to be a dragonborn rather than a vryloka; being at a disadvantage when bloodied is awful for a defender. Bozak draconian is an ideal subrace, if only for the pixie-style flight.
Take Harlequin Style as your level 2 feat, and be sure to have Vengeance is Mine as your level 1 encounter attack power. Even without any warlord presence, you will have more than enough good power choices from the paladin and warlord lists throughout your entire career to fulfill your needs.
>>44508769
I have been trying to begin a series of more lore-oriented threads here ( https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/text/%22comprehensive%20planescape%22/ ), but few have shown any interest in them for the past several days.
>>44508783
I'm not the vryolka guy, just sayan.
Any way to get the cavalier summon steed on a hybrid?
>>44508344
IME the thing that kills 4e is trying to run it as if it was 3.5.
"Don't tell players it's a skill challenge" is entry-level advice, considering that a lot of other games do similar things and no one has an issue. Might me a matter of wording, sure, but it's also a matter of mindset. It's more the same thought process that leads away from "to speak to the guard you have to roll Diplomacy 25" or whatever. The game gives back what you put in it.
>>44508451
The DMG2 stuff is pretty much the same as the Dragon articles.
So, Im in the character builder right now and a little confused
Im Paragon Multiclassing ranger.
At level 7 I replaced a power with Finishing Cut through Novice Power.
At level 11 it lets me pick Finishing Cut as my paragon MC power
Would that mean I get to use Finishing Cut twice per encounter?
>>44508973
Is there any reason you are trying to paragon multiclass in the first place? It is almost universally a severely suboptimal "trap option" that grievously wounds a character's effectiveness.
Finishing Cut is a below-average level 7 ranger encounter attack power, particularly since it is for one of the more awkward ranger builds, the Dexterity/Wisdom-based melee/ranged switch-hitter. What are you aiming for with this build of yours, exactly?
That said, as per page 27 of the Player's Handbook 1, you cannot select a power more than once; your Character Builder is in error here.
What roles would the Wakfu classes have?
>>44513644
...umm, Iop would be defenders...
I can't remember any other classes in Wakfu
>>44513750
Iop
Cra
Rogue
Sram
Feca
Sacrier
Pandawa
Sadidas
Xelor
Enutrof
Eniripsa
Osamodas
Ecaflip
Masqueraider
Foggernaut
Eliotropes
and Huppermages.
>>44513925
Iop: defender (off-striker)
Cra: striker (off-controller)
Rogue: controller (off-striker)
Sram: striker
Feca: defender (off-leader)
Sacrier: striker/defender
Pandawa: controller/striker
Sadidas: controller
Xelor: controller (off-leader)
Enutrof: striker
Eniripsa: leader
Osamodas: leader/controller
Ecaflip: leader/controller
Masqueraider: striker
Foggernaut: striker
Eliotropes: leader
Huppermages: ?
>>44514318
>Huppermages
They're the new class. They've got this combo sort of dealie where they combine different element attacks for different effects depending on the elements.
>>44514318
>>44514435
Ok, a class like that is hard to pin down.
Also thinking back on it, I think I'd make Xelor leaders (off-controller)and Enutrof defenders
What are people's opinions about pic related?
Anyone use it, or something like it?
Do you do something to monster HP to compensate?
>>44516488
What's the falling height column for?
>>44519527
I guess it's how deep you should make the pits.
D&D Furry general
heh,heh,hehbump
Is anyone playing/running a game?
I was running a game but half the players flaked. Was so hopeful too.
>>44519527
Basically an 80 foot pit is as dangerous to a level 15 adventurer as a 20 foot pit is to a level 1 (I am unsure if this factors in their ability to reduce fall damage with skill rolls or not)
I think it is only included because there is a not as dangerous "Fall severity By Character Level" chart on page 44 of the DMG
>>44523516
It doesn't factor in their ability to reduce fall damage.
>>44523084
I'm in a game. With 10 people. It is hell on turn times.
>>44524765
At that point you may as well run 2 groups.
How the hell does the scheduling even work out? We had trouble getting the 6 of us to be free at the same time.
>>44524808
I have no idea. It just does.
assuming your PP is Winter Fury and you attack with a weapon that converts damage to an element.
would that attack deal cold damage and gain the elemental keyword from the weapon since the original attack had no damage type, or would the weapon apply first and give the attack only one kind of damage?
