Was there ever a time rules wise when the tactical marine was good?
>>44434435
Yes. Necromunda.
>>44434435
Always?
3rd an 4th i know tactical was good. 5th was okay? (i dunno I was always too busy hacking filthy xenos scum usually to notice how "good" regular tac marine were). Haven't played since then.
>>44434500
>Always
No.
>>44434435
4E during Rhino Rush, but only because Scouts can't take Rhinos.
7E because they unlock free transports in Gladius. With bolter scouts at BS4 it's arguable whether or not a CAD with Librarius and Centurions or straight up bikers are superior to battle company.
Maybe in 2E when they had different rules for armor saves and when Guardsmen cost like 14 points.
For 90% of the game tactical marines are just overpriced T4 BS4 guys who pay extra for 3+ that gets ignored by plasma and other AP2.
>>44434435
Man, the Fire Hawks old emblem/colour scheme was so much more metal than their new one.
>>44434606
They were fine in 3rd too. Ap2 weapons were not that common back then.
so 2nd through 4th they were good. 5th they were a little over priced.
>>44434649
every was more metal back then. Because that's what 40k used to be all about, being fucking metal.
>>44434690
I will argue that they weren't bad in 5E. MEQ was almost always the top army, first vanilla, then BA, then SW/GK and IG.
So I'll give 5E.
6E is when they just really turned to utter shit with Heldrakes, flyers, Tau getting buffed, etc.
They weren't amazing in 4th. Just okay, but they were all you really had.
There was some nice stuff you could do with Chapter Tactics, but tacticals always were sort of crappy. Not complete shit, just not... very good.
Bolters always had the problem of beind kind off bad at every turn. One shot at 24" isn't going to cut it against IG or Tau, who are just going to sit back anyway so you have to waste turns advancing and not shooting.
Two shots at 12" weren't bad, but with the armies you actually could get into short range, you generally didn't want to. Orks and Nids being the prime example here. You'd just get assaulted and then ripped to shreds.
With the advent of 5th edition and 5+/4+ cover fucking everywhere, bolters became absolutely useless, though.
>>44434435
I used them extensively in 3rd and 4th.
Everything and their mother wasn't packing AP weapons back then (hence no need for this ++ rerollable FNP extra save crap)
>>44434729
Which not at all coincidentally is when i stopped playing.
Really it was because it made my beloved BT useless, but that is tied with all the issues that made tactical be bad.
Which is kinda how I'm looking back at it to judge. 3rd was pretty vanilla. I did okay. 4th was broken in a lot of respects and I could own the table with little effort with black tide srategy. 5th, I could loose awesomely, because at that point a CC marine army was mostly ineffective but still good enough to be a nuisance. 6th the power creep was such that anything based around mostly tac marines was guaranteed to fail.
>>44434729
Bolter wasn't what made MEQ top tier until the Leafblower, though.
With the vanilla book, it was Vulcan back then. All Vulcan, All The Time, which meant as many Meltas and Flamers you could cram into the list. Bolter Marines were just wounds for your Multimelta Devastors. Hell, Tacticals weren't even picked most of the time, with scouts being cheaper for objective sitting.
Well, either that or Mass Bikes.
With BA, nobody really used Bolter Marines. It was either Scouts, or Assault Marines with or without Jump Packs. No Tacticals to be seen anywhere.
SW and GK don't even have Tacticals, GK don't have bolters. That alone should tell you enough. The Storm Bolters are what Bolters should be in the first place, but what made them hilarious were the +1 STR upgrade GK got.
SW didn't really use Bolters either. Troops were practically a Tax for your 4 HQs and Thunderwolf Deathstar.
Um, always?
They're the measure against which other troops are compared.
>>44435077
>any unit worth using is better than tacticals
This is why they're bad, moron.
>>44435077
People who say tactical marines are good but don't ally space marines just to get some sweet, sweet tactical marines in their army are FUCKING LIARS
LIARS
YOU LIE
LIAR
FUCKING LIAR
>>44435120
kek
>>44434729
You're mistaking the marine armies being powerful for tacticals being powerful. Tacticals sucked in 5th.
Do Legion of the Damned tacs count?
>>44435600
>are 3++ relentless ignore cover units tactical marines?
You're a faggot.
>>44435600
No, because they aren't tacticals. Not in any way, shape, or for beyond their bawe characteristic profile shared by 99% of space marines.
Single best basic troop in the game. Has a weapon that one shots most other infantry, rarely miss with high ballistic skill. Decent in hand to hand, not effected by morale rules.
I've been playing since 2nd edition, and marines are never "bad" because they are so beastly every other army has to be built to kill the space marine and not say, the ork or the guardsmen, marines are the yardstick by such all other troops are measured.
>>44435747
Orks, guardsmen, grots, cultists, zombies, conscripts, and fucking MUCOLID SPORES are better than tactical marines.
Points fucking matter. Your pic related. Who cares if a terminator can beat the shit out of a grot 1v1. You can take like 100 grots and bury the fucker for the same amount of points.
They're middling in a game of extremes. That's their only problem.
>>44435794
It is a game of numbers, I can build a marine army to take on all comments more easily than I can buyld a ork army to take on marines, and anyone who isn't Marines. The two builds are incompatible in every other army. 4+ and 5+ saves everywhere, if you manage to get your tactical squad overrun by cheap shit troops you deserve to get nommed by nids.
>>44434435
They arent great, but they arent horrible either. There are a few ways to play them that make them acceptable.
>>44435747
>that left hand
>>44435885
>he thinks tacticals are even played outside of BC
>he thinks BC is anything but a "die slowly and cap points" army
You're terrible at this game. There's a reason it's scouts only and the last good list before gladius was scout spam.
>>44434606
>4E during Rhino Rush
Rhino Rush wasn't a thing during 4th because you couldn't assault after disembarking a moving transport.
Tacticals were good in 4th, however, because that was the era of chapter traits.
>>44434435
Probably 2nd or 3rd edition when 3+ armor still meant something and bolters were still solid guns.
>>44436019
3E Rhino Rush
4E Fish of Fury
>>44436019
Yes you could.
>>44434435
They were OK in earlier editions, mainly as soak for heavy/special weapons. People would do small squads of 5 with a plasma gun or lascannon, maybe a lasplas Razorback attached.
>>44434606
>4E during Rhino Rush, but only because Scouts can't take Rhinos.
You mean 3E. 4E nerfed Rhino Rush because it fucked over transports that weren't open-topped.
>>44435794
And yet not for the same amount of dime
>>44436112
Only open-topped transports, kid. Stop talking shit as if you actually played back then.
