>>44189129
Not sure why you made another thread when the general is there, but here goes.

The Eclipse, and to a lesser extent the Twilight, are there because Exalted features things you can't just punch to death. Look at the Eclipse anima powers; you can walk into a Fae/Demon stronghold and be certain that you won't be harmed. If you're in a game where you could just punch your way into the stronghold anyway, then the ability to negotiate with the various bastards of Creation is basically worthless. If that's the game you're playing, then no one should have to play an Eclipse.

Similarly, the Twilight is good at things that aren't straight up punching. They're broad enough to accommodate whatever "expert" concept you had in mind. If your game is just all punching all the time, then you don't need it to contain Twilights.

Both of these Castes can kick ass. I played an Eclipse and kicked more ass than the rest of the party combined, partly because I actually paid attention to character creation and partly because my best weapons could be used in public without calling down the Hunt. But they're focused on situations that can't be solved by hitting it really hard. If the GM doesn't use those situations, the players don't have to use those Castes.

>>44189129
The archetypical twilight is king Solomon. The archetypical eclipse is literally any "a stranger came and united the feuding tribes into one people."

Eclipse Caste are the figures who forge alliances, build kingdoms, and run organizations that change the world. Not just with humans, but supernatural factions like spirits and the elements as well.

Twilight Caste are the genius artificers, artists, scavengers, engineers, healers, detectives, and sorcerers. They build and protect wonders and other stores of great knowledge.

>>44189309
To expound on this, it helps to add "-Kings" onto the conception of a the castes. Dawns are not mere warriors: they are warrior Kings. Nights are assassin-kings or thief-kings. Zeniths: priest-kings. Twilights: scholar-kings. Eclipses: a lot more fuzzy than the rest, but somewhere in the range of wanderer-kings or beaurocrat-kings.

>>44189325

I understand that part but that feels like knowledge they would give onto mere-humans.

Detectives, lawyers, oath-givers, engineers, healers, painter and sculptors - it just doesn't fit the concept of an EXALTED. if feels like their hobby, past-time passion.

For example Dynasty warriors games:
I can fight men by the hundreds. What can you do?
I can paint really, really well. My friend is a diplomat.

I don't see why Warriors and Generals couldn't fit those things as part of their characters skills or hobbies. I mean there are always ideas about great warriors also enjoying art, music, poetry and even expressing themselves through it.

So that is why I find those two/three castes obsolete in some way. You are charismatic diplomat. I'm a general and also charismatic diplomat.

>>44189718
A general and also a charismatic diplomat is way less of a charismatic diplomat than the charismatic diplomat. Sure you can hammer out a peace treaty, but this guy solves millenia old disputes in an afternoon and established organizations that are structurally incorruptible for fun

>>44189718
You are an exceptional warrior. I am also an exceptional warrior, except my divine excellence takes me beyond human limits and shines like the sun.

You are a charismatic diplomat. I am also a charismatic diplomat, except my divine excellence takes me beyond human limits and shines like the sun.

The same way human prowess is not limited to ass-kicking, the arete of the Solar Exalted is not limited to ass-kicking. Many of the great figures in history and mythology were not necessary known for being excellent warriors, but for being charismatic, for being wise, for being great in ways their peers and followers admired and humans today continue to admire. Solars take human ability to the level of epic skill, and the human condition and its potential are not summed up in merely fighting.

>>44189718
Exalted should be more than a Dynasty Warriors game. A character can be an epic hero in more ways than just plowing through troops.

>I can paint really, really well.
I can make a painting that will cause thousands of people who see it to rebel against their leaders.

>My friend is a diplomat.
My friend forged an alliance between between two cities that have hated each other for centuries and is now here to negotiate a deal between you and the restless spirits of the dead that have been plaguing your kingdom.

Also, a general and diplomat are different jobs even if they have the same abilities. They define themselves differently and approach challenges differently, even if they have the same goal.

>>44189718
Ah, I see what the root of your problem is: Combat is king.

In Exalted, combat isn't assumed as a baseline of growth. You don't get a BAB increase every few levels or XP, you have to willfully invest in combat, and some invest more than others.

A Dawn can kill 100 men in combat yes, but the Zenith can unite a kingdom in a single speech and an Eclipse can end a war in 5 words.

A Twilight can tell who the murderer is by simply glancing at the body of the victim and make a sword in a single gesture.

If you invest in combat, you have less to invest in non-combat. And in Exalted killing things solves up-front problems (still important) but non-combat can change the face of the setting.

>>44189718
>I can paint really, really well.

You're missing the point of being a Twilight. If you're a Twilight with max Int and Lore 5 in some broad specialty, you know literally everything about it. Anything you don't know, you know exactly where to look. That Craft skill isn't just shit like painting and making swords. You know how to make intelligent magic swords out of materials so arcane they don't exist anymore and you can somehow synthesize them anyway. You can raise magical fortress/workshops that tap into the magical energies of the land itself. If you're a sorcerer (which any self-respecting Twilight is), the laws of reality are subservient to you. You can twist space, twist men's minds and create entire new species out of nothing. By will alone you can bind demons to you will and strip gods of their divinities. King Solomon bound 72 demons to his will and turned his land into a paradise. A Twilight caste can eventually skip the demons.

>My friend is a diplomat.

Being an Eclipse isn't just about being a diplomat. Everyone wants something. Gods want things. Demons want things. The fae want things. Even ghosts want things. Pounding your enemies into submission or binding them with magic is inefficient when you can buy them out instead. Social Charms aren't always quite mind control, but they're always at least the next best thing.

I'm playing a Twilight right now. We make shit. Magic shit especially. We also cast spells. Sorcery isn't as all-encompassing as it is in other systems, but calling up demons is immensely useful. Last session, for example, we needed to find where a guerrilla army was hiding in a war-torn city. So I sent out my demons (who were dematerialized) and told them to go through every house until they found a large number of armed mortals hiding in one, preferably if they were with a terrestrial goddess (who was supporting the rebellion).

That worked; the session ended with us going over to say hi. Before that, I used my expertise to prove that another demon summoner was slipping mind-bending alchemical potions to her boss's political rivals.