Hey /tg/ long story but I've got a character whose going to be empowered by various figures from Christian Myth or catholic saints. I need a list of badass Christian figures or saints. No Angels (long story) and saint George is already taken. I'm talking like, Saint Moses the Black badass, but someone with miraculous powers is preferable. One figure I already have is Vladimir Tepes as defender of the faith, so feel free to go edgy. I just need ideas.
Is martyrdom badass for your standards?
Do you want bible times geroes or post bible times?
Old testament Bible times: Ezekiel, old testament prophet, raises a valley of zombies.
Elisha summons bears to maul 42 youth
Elijah summons fire from the heavens
Sampson had strength +5
Moses had calamity magic like the 12 plagues, red sea splitting in two, water from rocks, food every day for hundreds of thousands out of the dew of the earth, ability to effect the rotation of the earth.
New testament: paul revives the dead, is immune to stoning. Charisma +5
Phillip the evangelist can teleport
Peter causes earthquakes to escape prison. Charisma +5, ealks on water, expels demons
If you want post bible times: there are thousand of martyrdom stories.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_martyrs
If you need saint in their name, generally catholic tradition is looking at new testament(the last 27) books of the bible, (focus on the book of acts for miracles forom people besides Jesus). Or catholic tradition is looking at after the New testament writing. Look into how saint hood is achieved. I believe the standard is 3 miracles. I bet there is a source listing the various miracles. This would make choosing easy.
>>44104663
Post Bible times preferably. Bible era heroes are unavailable for reasons.
Saint Adrian, patron saint of soldiers and butchers, was a pagan officer that converted after seeing the bravery of Christians under torture. He was then captured and put under the same torture. His limbs were crushed on/under an anvil and then he was beheaded. Often seen weilding an anvil and either an axe or a sword.
Do it. Hit bitches with an anvil. And he died in 307, so its old but not quite Bible old.
So stories of levitation, healings, ressurections, not eating, and bodies that dont decay will be your.primary catholic miracles.
>>44104388
Good old saint nicholas punched some heretic dipshit in the face during debate and would be stripped of his office if not for intervention of both Jesus and Mary thus proving that beating the shit out of people you don't like is 100% Christ-approved.
Saint Francis is pretty badass. Loved and lived among nature, in favor to other people. Certainly preferred the company of animals at least, and preached to them.
Could very easily, in the context of a game, have him able to actively communicate with animals considering he did crazy shit like tame monster wolves just by talking to them.
>>44104388
Orthodox, but look at Saint Olga of Kiev.
![saint_denis[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/AZoSRQm.jpg "saint_denis[1].jpg")
>>44104388
>I need a list of badass Christian figures or saints.
Well, here's a few.
>Saint Jeanne
Needs no introduction. Keep in mind that IRL she was a lot more agressive than often depicted, in that she often favored offensive strategy.
>Saint Denis
A late Roman saint sent to Gaul to convert the Parisii (the tribes of what is now Paris). He was caught by pagans and decapitated on what is now known as Montmartre (Mount of the Martyr). He decided that this was a shit place to die and picked up his own head, traveled around what is now Paris while still preaching with his disembodied head, until he reached what is now known as St. Denis and decided this would be a better place to die.Sadly, both St. Denis and Montmartre are now Muslim-infested shitholes. St. Denis would be so proud.Pic related, his depiction on the exterior of the Notre Dame.
>St. Louis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq5upm_FeVA
So with those three, you have
>What's that God? Kill them all? What a good idea!
>>Implying you can kill me
And
>Real life paladin
>>44104388
Sadly, i don't find a source in english. but there are multiple "Dragon Saints" including st. george, Arch Angel Michael and other badass Dragon-killers.
im looking for a english list right now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_saint
>>44106086
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_the_Virgin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George_and_the_Dragon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(archangel)
St. Wenceslaus. Known for being nice, but exterminated an opposing dynasty.
Saint Guinefort, a dog which protected a knight's child.
Ivan the Terrible was worshipped as a folk saint.
Holy Unmercenaries did good deeds and refused payment for it. Man, I would listen a gospel rock band called so.
>>44104388
Saint Sebastian, maybe.
Declare your power to be having an unlimited supply of arrows emerge from your body, which you can pluck out of your flesh and shoot at people.
Saint Ignatius Loyola, founded the Jesuits and embraced his faith after being shot with a fucking cannon and surviving and being so bored while recovering that he picked up a Bible to read.
Charlemagne, first emperor of the Holy Roman Empire.
Charles Martel, grandfather of Charlemagne and"Hero of the Cross against the Crescent."His nickname (Martel) means Hammer--thus, Charles the Hammer.
>>44105229
> He decided that this was a shit place to die and picked up his own head, traveled around what is now Paris while still preaching with his disembodied head, until he reached what is now known as St. Denis and decided this would be a better place to die.
Saint Barbara, patron saint of artillerymen.
Saint Nicholas, with both classical saint mixed with Santa.
>>44108304
It's true. I went to a school named for him for 7th and 8th grade, and there was a small statue of him outside the church with his head cradled in one arm.
>>44105153
This.
Go with this. Her life reads like an awesome super villain origin story.
>>44104388
Saint George, dragon slayer, patron of knights, boy scouts nd half a dozen armies around the world, patron of England, Portugal and three or four more countries.
>>44109506
Including Georgia.
>>44108466
Statues of martyrs are usually pretty great.
In Milan there's one of St. Ambrose, who was flayed alive. It's this huge skinless guy draped in his skin. It was pretty metal.
>>44108425
>no no no, you fire the cannons straight into their homes. I even built you a scale model to demonstrate
>>44104388
Not a character, but don't forget the Spear of Longinus and Ascalon
Saint Christina the Astonishing is pretty great. Saint of madmen, for good reason.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina_the_Astonishing
>>44104388
Charlemagne is almost saint, apparently. (He's "Blessed", I'm not catholic so I have no clue what that actually means)
>>44104388
seeing as how Christianity is based on personal sacrifice a lot of the saints died gruesome painful deaths.
St. Sebastian was shot with a hundred arrows, he survived, was carried back to rome, and scared the shit out of the emperor by telling him he was a sinner. the emperor then had him beaten to death.
St. Peter was crucified upside down
St. Jude was beheaded by an axe, and that became his symbol
st. Bartholomew was flayed alive and crucified
Polycarp was burned and stabbed
perpetua and felicity were mailed by a boar, a bear, and a leopard, and then stabbed by gladiators, and they were such bad aim that they had to guide the blade to slit their throats.
>>44108444
And SMITE THE HERESY for added fun:
>According to legend, St. Nicholas was so frustrated and angered by the teachings of Arius (denying the consubstantiation of the Son with the Father, also calling Christ a created being instead of Creator-God) that at the Council of Nicea he struck Arius a blow clean across the face, knocking him down.
This is also why some people consider him the patron of boxers and pugilists.
![sinterklaas[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/OklmIuS.jpg "sinterklaas[1].jpg")
>>44108425
>LITERALLY A SAINT OF FUCKING ARTILLERY
.... Now I understandwhy Medieval 2: Total War pre-battle speeches always referred to Santa Barbara if you had cannons in your army
>>44112697
It would certainly be an interesting way to settle the Zwarte Pieten debate, that's for sure.
Not real saints but google catacomb saints
Not raised to sainthood and from a now protestant country, but since he predates protestantism by about 400 years I'll throw him in there. Dude was a Bishop and later Arch Bishop in Denmark less than 100 years after the Danes were raiding British monestaries, thus he had to be a bad ass. When Wendish Vikings came around to raid his monestaries and churches, he rode out and fucked up 24 longboats worth of them. He also went crusading against the Wends with his bros Valdemar the Great and Esben Snare.
>>44115131
That's a man I would follow into battle.
If only because I would be fucking terrified of what he would do to me if he ever found out I didn't follow him into battle.
>>44108425
Dang, as if being patroness of artillery wasn't badass enough in its own right, her miracles are pretty nuts:
>When her pagan father found out she was Christian and tried to kill her, she opened a portal in the wall and teleported to a distant gorge
>When a shepherd who saw her arrive at the gorge ratted her out, he was turned to stone and his sheep turned into a swarm of locusts
>When she was being tortured in prison, her wounds regenerated every night
>When she was finally executed, her father was struck by lightnning and completely incinerated on his way home from the execution
>>44111801
Longinus did become a saint tho
>>44112333
>St. Sebastian was shot with a hundred arrows, he survived, was carried back to rome
More importantly, he's customarily depicted as a delectably tortured twink.
I want an Roguelike RPG where you play as saints and you get powers based on how righteous your death is, your next character is a disciple of your previous saint and can inherit his powers.
>>44108425
Holy shit. I just now understand the ref in GB Shaw's Major Barbara.
How is the system of saints NOT just a deific pantheon by another name?
>>44104388
Saint Lawrence
>he prefect was so angry that he had a great gridiron prepared, with coals beneath it, and had Lawrence’s body placed on it (hence St Lawrence's association with the gridiron). After the martyr had suffered the pain for a long time, the legend concludes, he made his famous cheerful remark, "I'm well done. Turn me over!" From this derives his patronage of cooks and chefs, and also of comedians
Nothing wrong with good ol' saint Christopher or Saint Nick.
>>44116400
Not the same thing, but classic historical fantasy crpg Darklands lets you train up your devotion to particular saints and invoke them for magic powers.
>>44116400
>Reforge all your coins
>Stab yourself using these sharpened bits of gold and silver
>Your next character can literally pull money out of his ass
>>44116428
Because they're mortals that achieved divine favour, as any of us might. They're not gods nor even angels, and their only power is to act as "intercessor" with the Almighty. When you pray to a saint you're just asking them to put in a good word for you with God, because you know he values their opinion. Theoretically any dead person could do the same. Unless they're in hell, lawl.
I don't have the pic saved on my computer but this is the best thread on /tg
>>44116428
They have no real power themselves. They just flag prayers as important before forwarding them to the big G.
Prester John was a mythical Christian King in the east who ruled a just and fair land despite being surrounded by pagans and heathens.
The mongol invasions that bitch slapped everyone in the region was attributed to Prester John destroying muslim armies.Which may have some basis in reality as certain mongol khans and queens converted to nestorian christianity.
Basically a legendary holy warrior fighting hordes of infidels so you dont have to, so quite bitching about 3 to 1 oddscause Prester John is dealing with 10 to 1 odds.
>>44116479
Pretty much the same logic as behind William the Conqueror constructing a shitload of monestaries across England. He basically employed all the monks that joined them to pray for his sins committed during the invasion of England. The idea was pretty much that God was more likely to listen to the pure than the tainted (which led to a vicious cycle: monks sought isolation from the outside world, became pious, earned the favor of kings, got paid to pray for them, earned mad cashmoney, became hedonistic, some of the monks would get pissed off and break away to form their own traditional convent, become pious, become popular with kings, earn mad cashmoney to pray for their sins etc. etc.).
>>44116428
Because they're not really gods at all. More like demigods, or god-chosen.
Saint Christopher was a fuck huge guy who wanted to fight for the greatest king in all the land verse the biggest threat in all the land, which turned out to be god and the devil. But all he's remembered for is carrying a baby.
Catholicism
>The holy teachings need to be preached and discussed by dedicated men of faith and learning, the higher powers need someone who is educated in the matter to explain it
Protestantism
>Hierarchies and super structures lead to corruption and away from christian values
>The people can be trusted to understand the parables and apply them to their lives in a while a stuffy old bishop would never understand
Who was right /tg/? What sort of saints and heroes would each field?
![Aquinas-Meme-2[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/r7f7RjW.png "Aquinas-Meme-2[1].png")
>>44116736
>Who was right /tg/?
Considering we now have Young Earth Creationism, churches trying to be "hip" and damn near discarded Greek philosophy, I'd say the Catholics were right. Luther had his points and the Counterreformation was desperately needed, but Protestantism itself had a tendency to go full retard.
Protestantism led to liberalism led to capitalism. It is of the Devil.
>St. Catherine of Alexandria
A princess and child prodigy, she was renowned as a great scholar even as a teenager. When she went to the Roman Emperor to plead for him to stop persecuting Christians, he gathered fifty of his best philosophers to try to convince her to denounce her faith. She managed to convince most of them to become Christian instead. The emperor ordered her to be tortured to death on a breaking wheel (hence why it's sometimes called the "Catherine wheel"), but the wheel shattered at her touch. She was finally executed by beheading, and an angel flew her body to Mount Sinai. When her body was rediscovered some centuries later, it was found secrete an oil with miraculous healing properties.
>St. Columbanus
If you think St. Francis would be a good saint to draw on for animal-control powers, look to this guy instead. He purportedly had the whole Disney-princess schtick going on with birds and squirrels and other cute little woodland critters following him everywhere. He also bossed apex predators around like a bona fide beastmaster. Once, he was attacked by a pack of wolves, and got them to go away just by asking nicely. Later, he holed up in a cave that turned out to be occupied by a bear. He told the bear to gtfo, this is my cave now, and the bear listened. Another time, he used a bear to help plow a field at his monastery.
He also created a spring to provide fresh water when he was living in that cave formerly belonging to a bear, performed several miracles of healing and food multiplication, and once created a gale with his breath strong enough to destroy a great cauldron of beer because it was being used for a pagan ceremony. Basically, he was a Christian druid minus the wildshape.
>>44116428
Because they're all "I-don't-care-about-levels" clerics.
And their powers were like the GM rewarding roleplay.
>>44116524
That was Marco Polo's interpretation.
Later on, Prester John was thought to be in Affrica
>>44116736
Catholics
When you let unwashed peasants read something written like 2000 years ago, they're going to misinterpret things.
>>44117036
Even Martin fucking Luther realized as much, and only a couple years after he'd kicked off the Reformation.
>Noblemen, townsmen, peasants, all classes understand the Gospel better than I or St. Paul; they are now wise and think themselves more learned than all the ministers.... There is no smearer but when he has heard a sermon or can read a chapter in German, makes a doctor of himself and…convinces himself that he knows everything better than all who teach him.
>There are as many sects and beliefs as there are heads. This fellow will have nothing to do with baptism; another denies the Sacrament; a third believes that there is another world between this and the Last Day. Some teach that Christ is not God; some say this, some say that. There is no rustic so rude but that, if he dreams or fancies anything, it must be the whisper of the Holy Spirit, and he himself a prophet.
And it's only gotten worse since then.
>>44116736
Luther was absolutely right in the corruption of the church and the sheer debauchery done in Rome so the popes only had themselves to blame.
And yet, a population somewhat literate was now in the role of interpreting scriptures? Bad moves.
The reformation movements proved far more sadistic and cruel than the catholic inquisition.
>>44117200
I'm a Catholic and I agree with this.
>>44104663
>12 plagues
10 plagues if I remember them correctly mate, and they were directly against the portfolio of the Egyptian gods, so it was like Yahweh was beating the shit out of the Egyptian gods. The last plague being against the powers of Amun-ra, who was said to have unchallenged rule over the universe.
>>44117255
There barely was a Catholic who didn't agree. Dante himself used part of his Divine Comedy to bash on the popes and claimed hell was full of 'em. Not sure if it was Dante or some other medieval writer, but I can vaguely remember some medieval figure claiming that Satan's asshole was full of popes.
>>44117200
On the counter reformation and an example on why it was so shitty, it basically started the whole burn the witch thing. The official Catholic Inquisition would go around rooting out heretics and then they would bring them back into Catholic dogma, sometimes peacefully, sometimes they'd get a French king to kill everybody instead. And at one point they started doing the same for witches, but actual condemnations and executions were rare.
Then Protestantism happens, and instead of educated priests ferreting out witchcraft it was one illiterate peasant claiming the woman who wouldn't sleep with him had put a curse on his children, or the single farmer living on the outskirts of town had made a deal to put a blight on the peasant's crops. Combined with a lot of doomsday preaching going on at the time, people would get swept up in mass panic hysteria and start lighting the bonfires. It's estimated that tens of thousands of people died due to accusations of witchcraft.
>St. Christina the Astonishing
When she was in her early 20s, she had a massive seizure, and apparently died. During the funeral, she woke up, and levitated up out of the open casket to perch in the rafters of the church, claiming she couldn't stand the stench of sin on the people below. She said that she had been shown around heaven, hell, and purgatory by angels, and offered a choice: Go on to heaven, or return to earth and perform penance for the rest of her life to aid souls in purgatory.
She swore off all material comforts, essentially living as a homeless beggar, and actively sought out tortures to inflict on herself. Like jumping into hot furnaces and laying there for awhile. Or jumping in the river in early spring when the waters were freezing cold and very vigorous, letting herself float down for days or weeks at a time, getting smashed against rocks and caught in water wheels. Or letting vicious dogs attack her, then running through brambles to get away.
And for all of that, she never suffered any harm. Plenty of pain, but the worst injury she would suffer were cuts that would bleed a little before healing up in seconds.
Eventually she mellowed out and settled down as a more or less normal nun. Always could smell sin, though.
>>44117255
There's a reason we had a Counter-Reformation, and it's because we acknowledged that the Protestants did raise some legitimate objections.
>>44115574
>>44115131
Wends gets fucked
>>44117430
>>44117387
>>44117255
Luther just wanted the church to stop indulgences...
Instead they unchained a beast of a man who tore europe a new one.
>>44117430
I think it's a matter of "good intentions with bad methods."
I mean Luther was smart, very, very smart, but his ego and naivete were too strong. You can't really blame him for not foreseeing the outcomes of his actions, but he was a bit of a cheeky cunt, and could have worked within the church with a little more humility and helped resolve the issues, instead of indirectly enabling the creation of those silly Mormon folk.
>>44117766
Luther geniuenly believed he had a shit fight with the devil.
Like literally throwing his shit a the devil
>>44117841
Did he win?
>>44117588
>>44117766
If Luther's grievances with the Church were solely about the abuse of indulgences and so forth, maybe.
But he also was pretty dead set on that whole "Sola Fide" thing, which was the only way he could find to deal with his crippling scrupulosity. He literally was ready to cut the book of James from the Bible because it was such a strong obstacle to that doctrine. His gripe with Rome was as much about central theology as it was about corruption and politics, and that's not something Rome was ever going to compromise on.
>>44116428
Because they're not gods? They're of human origin, they're not worshipped (praying to them is not the same as worshipping them, since the destination of any prayer to a saint is ultimately to God through said saint).
>>44116887
Isn't that supposed to refer to Ethiopia?Or did Europa Universalis 4 lie to me?
>>44117923
His perspective on Sola Fide came in part due to the corruption he saw within the church, with each feeding each other. Part of the genesis of Sola Fide was being unable to reconcile the actions of the Church with Justification since they seemed to lead to more sin, and his condemnation of the Church ended up revolving around his ideas of Sola Fide.
Without a corrupt Church, Sola Fide would have likely remained a curious notion to him that could have been resolved as the Church later did, instead of becoming the cornerstone of his ideas.
>>44117841
>Luther: The Original Troll and Shitposter
Well, after Diogenes.
>>44117841
Didnt he write his letters while sitting on the loo ?
>>44118227
>Nobody mentioned Jacob wrestling an angel
>>44118733
Fun fact, that's where the name Israel comes from. Means he who wrestles with God. Probably. Another fun fact, the wrestles part has been suggested to mean wrestling with faith and the idea of God. Because if there's one stereotype that's 100% true, it's that Jews fucking love to argue.
>>44118792
It's almost certainly an allegory, but the idea of a dude putting Michael the archangel in a submission hold until he taps out is more fun.
>>44104388
How about Old Testament? With Hanukkah being a thing, Judas Maccabees is pretty badass. Led a revolution against Seleucids, waged guerrilla war, and oh yeah, his last name meas "the hammer".
>>44104388
Where the fuck did all the mysticism and wonder in Christianity go? I used to be a pretty zealous believer when I was younger (I'm not a believer now, but I have no beef with the Church) and I never heard the priest talking about these magic fucking powers and demons and weird angels, ever.
I mean, you've got the Trinity which is itself a pretty out there concept, these different angles/aspects of the same thing showing up in TOTALLY different ways, transubstantiation is something I still don't understand, all I know is communion wafers become divine flesh but for what purpose I am at a loss to say, then you've got all these bizarre Saint powers like walking around with you severed head preaching and smelling sin, you've got healing, invincibility, these saints have all got different and sometimes inexplicable domains.
Where's the mystery in it all? Part of me wishes the faith didn't try grounding itself so much. I want to channel inexplicable powers and freakish abilities through me, that shit's cool.
The Bitch Queen Saint of Fuckyouville
>>44119967
Because as common people become more educated, the more ridiculous those stories sound. Catholics, mainly Mexicans and Irish, tend towards the fantastical moreso than other sects, and everybody looks at them as the crazy Christians, after Mormons.
>>44116547
Someone likes Terry Jones I see,
>>44118871
I don't think he ever beat the angel, they just wrestled for like 3 fuckin days until the angel realized he needed more gainz
>>44119967
The world has advanced to the point that the average joe lives in a conflicted state of being told to grow the fuck up and stop pretending while at the same time being taught with allegorical stories and fantasy. Instead of accepting that stories can have meaning even if they are fiction people either completely reject anything that is not directly comparable to their life or fool themselves into thinking the world actually flooded and a man saved it by putting two of every animal on a boat.
>>44119967
>Where the fuck did all the mysticism and wonder in Christianity go?
The Orthodox Church is pretty big on it.
>>44119967
Blame the Protestants. They ditched saints altogether, and when they ditched the clergy they more or less had to ditch any interpretation of the sacraments beyond mere symbolism. And the Catholics had to tone everything down on their end to avoid scaring Protestants off. It's all still there in Catholic teaching, but it's not really openly emphasized the way it used to.
>>44119967
>transubstantiation is something I still don't understand, all I know is communion wafers become divine flesh but for what purpose I am at a loss to say
It's right there in the Bible. From the Gospel of John, Chapter 6:
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
Eating the divine flesh is necessary to live forever in heaven, according to Jesus Himself. Attaining eternal life in heaven is pretty much the entire goal in Catholicism.
>>44121060
You know, when you get down to it, considering that the Catholic view of heaven involves being perfected and fully transformed into a state closer to the divine, it could more or less be summed up crudely as "you are what you eat".
>>44117990
Prester John was a mythical figure of indeterminate location believed to rule over a mighty christian nation that was sincerely believed to exist by many, originally thought of in being in india, though india was a vague notion to Europeans at the time. Central Asia was thought of next when learning of Genghis Khan's interest in foreign religions and his Nestorian Christian uncle, until they found there was no Prester John to be found there. Rather than give up, they settled on africa. When the Portuguese found Ethiopia they were looking for Prester John. Always found it odd Portugal and Ethiopia got on despite Ethiopia being coptic orthodox. Mutual hatred of Muslims I guess.
>>44104388
St. Michael the Arch-Angel
St. Joan
St. George
St. Morris/Maurice
The Four Holy Marshals
St. Nicholas
>>44121136
Are you Elon Musk? Because you just put my sides into orbit.
>>44121136
read the passage you quoted, transubstantiation was never about cannibalism. the quoted passages are literally "Jesus describes heavenly food as his flesh, Jews question the legitimacy of a man who commands them to eat his flesh, Jesus states my flesh is REAL food and my blood is REAL drink" Divine "flesh" is symbolic of God giving a part of himself to man in order that he may absorb it and become divine himself, similar in a metaphorical sense to how a man gives a part of himself to a woman to create new life or how a parent "gives a part of himself" in the form of his worldly knowledge to his son so that he can become an adult.
>>44121506
The symbolic interpretation is in no way borne out by the text. If you look at the original Greek phrasing, Jesus actually uses two different words for "eat" in the course of the Bread of Life discourse. At first, he uses "phagos", the general Greek term for eating, which can easily be taken in a metaphorical sense. But later, after the Jews get uncomfortable about the whole "eating my flesh" thing, he uses "trogos", a much more visceral and uncommon term, generally more associated in those days with an animal messily devouring a meal. He doesn't back off and say "hang on, back up, I'm just talking symbolically guys, chill"; he doubles down and changes his phrasing to emphasize the physical reality of what he's talking about. And when his disciples approach him about it later, he holds firm again.
This is also what is most consistent with Paul's writing about Communion in 1 Corinthians 11:27-29: "Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment* on himself." That's a pretty grave warning for dealing with a mere symbol, but it makes perfect sense if Christ is to be considered truly present in a very real and substantial sense in the bread and wine.
Consider that Ignatius of Antioch, who was a personal disciple of St. John (yeah, the St. John who wrote the Gospel that passage is from), wrote of denial of the Eucharist being truly the flesh of Christ as a mark of heresy: "[The Docetists] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes."
Symbolic it ain't.
Here's a line I like to use for paladins.
"Sometimes one may tend the fruit and heal it. And when not possible, I shall cut the branch to save the tree."
>>44116769
>>44117387
>>44117588
>>44117766
Lotta dudes in this thread who don't know the difference between The Reformation and the Counter-Reformation.
The Protestant Reformation
> Started with Luther's 95 Theses
> Led to all the various protestant sects
The Counter-Reformation
> Started with Rome admitting that mistakes had been made
> Actually brought a lot of moderate/conservative protestants back into the fold
>>44120972
Nothing worse than Unconditional Election Predestination, because being totally free to be shitty and cruel to whomever because you're already one of 'the elect' is just a great way to view the world.
Fucking calvinists.
>>44123416
Oh no, Calvinism is actually even worse than that.
If you're being shitty and cruel, they'd say that's a pretty sure sign that you're NOT one of "the elect". Failure to show fruits of Christian faith indicates that you're one of "the reprobate"...and that means you're free to be shitty and cruel as much as you want, because it's entirely impossible for you to go to heaven anyway. Jesus literally did not die for you; there's not enough grace made available by Christ's sacrifice to get you to heaven even if God wanted to let you. There is a finite supply of grace, and it's all earmarked for those predestined "elect".
And you're not one of them. You're unconditionally predestined for hell, and in fact it is all part of God's plan for you to be a shitty and cruel damned person. Your evil and subsequent damnation is all, somehow, for God's greater glory, and God deliberately made you that way to bring glory to Himself. And because of total depravity, not only are any efforts you might make to do good completely useless as far as eternity is concerned, they're actually digging you deeper just as much as your sins are. If you're one of the reprobate, it's a total "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.
So basically, Calvinism removes all reason to try to cultivate a moral compass/lifestyle if you don't already have it. If you're inclined to do good, it's purely because God unilaterally pumped you full of grace, and there's nothing you can possibly do to compromise or undo that. If you're not inclined to good, there's absolutely nothing you can do to change your lot in eternity besides hope that maybe you might actually just be one of the elect and God, for whatever reason, hasn't decided to give you your grace booster yet.
I know a couple Calvinists and debate with them on theology sometimes. Calvinism is fucking abominable.
>>44120372
>everybody looks at them as the crazy Christians, after Mormons
Meanwhile, it's not Catholics who go around saying that the book of Genesis was literal.
>>44123738
I don't know his denomination, but this reminds me of a couple of Chick tracts, like the one where the good guy sheriff dies and goes to hell anyway because he wasn't one of the elect (and of course the Catholic Church is literally Satan).
>>44121060
Jesus was trying to turn us into vampires
![uTjwn8u[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/8er19uq.jpg "uTjwn8u[1].jpg")
>>44123738
What did the Calvinist say after falling down the stairs?I'm glad that's over with!
>>44124811
Jack Chick is some sort of Magic Words Protestant. All you have to do is say the words "I accept Jesus Christ as my personal lord and savior" and you're guaranteed a spot in heaven, regardless of what you do with your life, and anyone who doesn't say the magic words is damned.
Hell, he's got a checkbox and a space to write your name in at the end of every tract, IIRC. He somehow managed to turn Salvation through Christ into a rubber stamp affair.
>>44116736
Both are in their own way. Early Protestantismus was pretty GOAT and is the reason Protestant countries were more industrialized than Catholic (Thanks, Zwingli!). The Protestant Work Ethic is a great read for that.
But somewhere in the past Century Protestantism was caught by a mix of too much money and too many Churches turning to "no everyone is going to heaven and everyone can be forgiven."
>>44122038
Depends on how you want to interpret at that point. Looks to me like it started out as a literal "eating the body and blood of the lord" which fell out of fashion as time went on and started being interpreted as "SYMBOLICALLY eat the body and blood of the lord"
![tumblr_mo9ebsnm7f1rc96b4o1_500[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Pu1Q7ZR.jpg "tumblr_mo9ebsnm7f1rc96b4o1_500[1].jpg")
>>44126481
>and is the reason Protestant countries were more industrialized than Catholic
Yeah... nah.
The first country to industrialize was the UK, you may have a point there. Then again, Anglicans are just Caesaropapist Catholics with their own saints and archbishops so maybe the're not the best example. Let's progress and see what happens with the others, right?
The second country to industrialize was... Belgium (admittedly while under French Rule, but let's just call it Belgium). Belgium was overwhelmingly Catholic. In fact, this is one of the reasons why the United Kingdom of the Netherlands fell apart: the Protestant North was more interested in commerce with the Catholic South being more focused on industry.
Third in line we have Germany. A-ha, a Protestant country! But wait, the most industrialized regions were, and still are, Bavaria and the Rhineland. Guess what both regions have in common: Catholocism!
Fourth in line there's France (sans Belgium). Despite Gallicanist tendencies, certainly a Catholic country.
Meanwhile the Protesant countries of Scandinavia severely lagged behind in industrialization, especially Finland.
But perhaps industrialization and work ethic aren't linked per se, right? Perhaps it was dependent on political factors and protestant countries still have a better work ethic? Let's see how they compare in productivity then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_hour_worked
What's this in the top 10? Interesting... Luxembourg, Belgium, France and Ireland are all in the top 10, making up close to half of the most productive countries in the world! Then also consider that Germany, the Netherlands and the USA have significant Catholic minorities (today German Catholics are technically the majority) and the Protestant Work Ethic thesis starts to look like yet another 19th century bullshit thesis on par with Nordicism.
Wow, all these saints seem like colossal bastards
>>44126664
I know, right? It surprises me how people who burn down entire cities with doves they put on fire are somehow considered saints.
>>44117990
Not that I know about. I was refering to Mali, with the uberrich king Musa I and his tons of gold, literally tons, his pilgrimage to Meca had 60.000 people and in Cairo he gave two tons to the poor.
However, a couple of centuries later (age of sail), I guess the Prester John myth went to Ethiopia because the Mali Empire wasn't a big deal anymore, and Ethiopia appealed to the "hidden catholic realm" aspect of the legend.
>>44126736
Didn't Mali have a long and well document history as an Islamic nation? That wouldn't fit the Prester John mythos, right?
>>44119967
>Where the fuck did all the mysticism and wonder in Christianity go?
It died in the world wars.
>>44120139
Prince Mal's face when
>>44126700
It's almost as if they made this shit up as they went along.
>>44126664
heretic detected
>>44126540
That's some neat stuff.
>>44126780
It didn't, but none of the places conected to the mythos did quite fit.
Ethopia fit the "hidden catholic realm" aspect.
Mali fit the "filthy rich beyond your dreams" aspect.
Mongols fit the "kill all muslims with invencible armies" aspect.
The full letter of Preston John detailed how he had the greatest armies, all the gold, a catholic heaven on earth and more, in such fabulous ways that no place could fit.
The greatest troll bait ever, but those were desesperate times for Europe and christianhood.
>>44126780
Very documented, Timbuktu was a great exporter of books in those times. Ibn Batutta wrote he had never seen safer streets, and his travels are in the pic.
But while Mali was islamic, it blended with local customs.
When Musa found out that princesses couldn't walk around naked according to Islam, he vowed to end it.
I wish the mix had gone into creating a blend of african religions with Islam, like Umbanda and Vodoo did with catholicism. It would be interesting.
>>44126399
Not every tract. But most of them.
>ctrl+f
>No matamoros
>No mention of reconquista
>No mention of Spanish or Portuguese empire anywhere
Literally doing it wrong anon, you have 90% of shit there being holy-related.
Clavijo (James, son of Zebedee comes down from heaven to kill muslims)
Covadonga (Virgin makes arrows do a 180º and turn back to the muslim army)
El Cid (There is a whole book about him, go read it, it's short)
>>44119967
The Orthodox Saint Seraphim lived in the 18th century and could heal people and tell the future. In the Orthodox Church these people who can perform miracles while alive are known as Starets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraphim_of_Sarov
I'm reading this and I keep expecting some edgelord to come in and "herp derp god doesn't exist" all over the thread.
Thank you for being you, /tg/
>>44130817
I never heard of this guy, he seems pretty cool.
I love his name, too. SAINT SERAPHIM OF SAROV.
>>44132010
Cool lore transcends all boundaries, anon.
![1449236012689[2].png](https://i.imgur.com/FZmv40C.png "1449236012689[2].png")
>>44132010
Even Catholics know that most of these stories are too silly to be true. It almost feels like they looked at biblical canon, decided it wasn't badass enough and needed their own answer to Greek demigods. The result: burning down cities with beards, picking up your own head after a decapitation and taking an arrow to literally every single part of the body and asking for seconds.
Remove the "Saint" title and it could sound like someone describing their latest D&D character. And I would allow it. I would even bend the rules to allow half this shit.
>>44136027
>burning down cities with beards
....with birds!
Then again, I'd love to see a dorf try it with his beard.
>>44136027
Then you are a good DM.
Also St Brigid. A celtic goddess that converted to Christianity.
>>44116428
You're on /tg/, how can you not know what a cleric is?
>>44126104
I don't get it, but I appreciate how the guy in that image looks uncannily like my old theology teacher
>>44141844
You can't be upset and have to suffer through it.
>>44104388
Saints don't "grant" any power you stupid proddy cunt
all power comes from God and God alone.
>>44116736
Catholicism because Protestants aren't Christian and have no tradition
>>44116431
Good ol' St. Larry!
>>44123348
the counter-reformation was a lot more than that, easily one of the most important events in European history
and it CERTAINLY was not the Church reneging or "giving in" to protestant demands
if anything it saw the Church going even MORE hard into the things the Proddies hated the most, like the status of Saints. the Virgin Mary, and opulence just as a big fuck you to Luther.
pic related and Julius II as well were incredible, I only wish we had a Pope with such balls now to save the Church.
>>44142545
Don't worry, we'll have another civil war in a good year.
>>44136027
>Even Catholics know that most of these stories are too silly to be true.
Catholics just put the Old Testament on a lower level and look at it with a bit more judgmental eye (being written by Jews and not nearly as well corroborated as the NT)
however the New Testament is the Truth and denial of that is heresy.
I love Christian mythology
It's comfy as fuck and not restricted to one culture area
>>44104388
What the hell is this? Not a fedora in sight. Is this a miracle? Has the Pope blessed this thread? I am genuinely shocked.
>>44142649
/tg/ is 90% fedora.
But we can still appreciate cool stories.
>>44142669
Actually, /tg/ is fairly religious, it's just that if you really want to argue about that stuff, you either go to /b/ or /pol/.
We make fun of fedoras all the time.
>>44104388
Saint Leo the Great.
Talked Attila out of Italy.
When the Vandals sacked Rome he talked them out of murder and arson.
You want that mad charisma bro.
>>44142825
>We make fun of fedoras all the time.
Being religious is not a requirement for this.
![texplainthejoke[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/5TPSeMC.jpg "texplainthejoke[1].jpg")
>>44141844
>I don't get it,
The thing is that Calvinists, as that other guy explained, believe in predestination. In other words, they believe that everything is predetermined. Even from birth (or even prior to your birth) it is already predetermined whether you'll go to heaven or hell and there's nothing you can do about it.
The joke is that a Calvinist is simply happy it's over after falling down the stairs is because, in the Calvinist point of view, falling down the stairs was simply inevitable rather than the result of carelessness.
>>44121060
>For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
So Jesus was actually made of bread and wine? You don't notice the transubstantiation because that's just what Jesus tastes like?
>>44116479
Doesn't square away with Jesus' role as the Great High Priest. Jesus is God's representative to man, and Jesus IS God Himself, so God is his own representative. This isn't China, there's no celestial bureaucracy. Why talk to some pencil-pushing intern when you can walk directly into the CEO/founder/sole proprietor's office and sit down to talk with him? It's not like he doesn't have the time, energy, attention span or concern to direct towards your issues.
>>44104388
Saint Isukiri is the only choice.
Don't you want to be backed by a man so loyal he died for your sins in Jesus' place and so skilled in the arts of ninjutsu that he could pass for an Israelite despite being East Asian?
>>44116769
>churches trying to be "hip" and damn near discarded Greek philosophy
The Message is the Kids Bop version of the 4kids dub of Bible translations.
>>44143400
Because he might be less likely to listen to you.
>>44143755
Might be, but isn't.
>>44142649
Religious lore threads on /tg/ are generally pretty chill. Even the occasional threads where debates do break out tend to be quite civil and cool-headed, as opposed to your typical comments-section shitflinging match.
/tg/ is pretty cool like that.
>>44143400
>>44143965
Christians ask their friends, family members, and fellow churchgoers to pray for them all the time. Saintly intercession is just taking that principle beyond the veil of death (because the saints are not dead, but rather alive in heaven), plus the added benefit that (as the Bible itself says) righteousness is correlated with efficacy of prayers. (Mary especially is focused on, because there's an actual recorded instance in the Bible of her talking Jesus into something he was reluctant to do.) And just like with asking people you know to pray for you, it's not like this replaces prayer directly to God, it's just a supplementary thing.
It's also pretty much entirely optional. Veneration of saints is encouraged in Catholicism as something beneficial and worthwhile, but pretty much the only time it could be considered mandatory is in the couple of places where saints are mentioned in passing as joining with prayers in the Mass. A Catholic is under no obligation to pray to the saints in his private prayer life if he doesn't want to. There are a few holy days dedicated to Mary and the saints where Mass attendance is obligatory (mostly Marian holy days, the only saints one I know of off the top of my head is All Saints' Day), but these aren't so much focused on prayer to Mary/the saints as offering worship and thanksgiving to God for giving us such cool role models in the faith.
>>44144429
>Veneration
>synonyms: reverence, respect, worship, adoration, homage, exaltation, adulation, glorification, extolment, idolization, devotion;
Total heresy
>just taking that principle beyond the veil of death
Necromancy
>Mary especially is focused on, because there's an actual recorded instance in the Bible of her talking Jesus into something he was reluctant to do
Anathema
Its forbidden in the Bible to worship anyone but God. Its forbidden to make images or idols and worship to them as well. Don't you read the Bible? I mean this is fundamental stuff. This is what happens when you put the words of an institution before the words of God.
>>44145836
>synonyms are exact
If you're too dumb to know how to use a damn dictionary, I'm sure as sin not going to trust you to interpret the Bible for me
>>44145836
Saints are not worshiped in the sense God is, and trying to prove otherwise is Jack Chick-level of understanding Catholicism.
>>44144139
Discuss religious myth all you want, argue over hierarchical structures and systems of governing. That's all cool.
But actually buying into all that junk is as ridiculous as insisting that The Emperor really exists in a Warhammer thread.
>>44145913
>>44146419
Only Christ suffered for our sins, He's the only Mediator between God and mankind, nobody else, not Mary or other dead saints (1 Timothy 2:5). We must never confess our sins to clergymen but to Christ Himself (1 John 1:9).
>>44116769
you can't compare protestants in the USA to say, protestants in Germany or Scandinavia.
In Europe they are just watered down catholics.
Nobody takes creationism serious anymore over there.
>>44146976
Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 18:18).
>>44146445
There's a difference between "Buying into that junk" and wholeheartedly believing everything in the bible actually happened exactly as it was written.
Lots of people buy into Star Trek's vision of humanity but don't believe what was filmed is exactly what's going to happen.
>>44142995
No, but most atheists I know are uncomfortable with the meme, or worse resonate with it. I have literally one friend (my best friend) that I know of that vacillates between atheist and agnostic that enjoys taking the piss out of militant atheists and fedora tier self-reverance
So yeah, the joke is not exclusive to the religious or agnostic, but in my personal experience not many atheists I know enjoy joking about it
>>44146445
Few Christians I know buy into biblical inerrancy, and no one I know take the laws of Leviticus seriously. The bible is an old book and a lot of what's in it is probably fictional or allegorical but yes most Christians hold the belief that there is some kernel of truth in it that reflects God's actual intentions and that those intentions are good. That belief is no more silly to me then what some supposedi ntellectuals and naturalists believe. One man's junk is another's treasure
>>44145836
>sola scriptura
>>44104388
Saint Demetrius
will expand in a bit
>>44112853
>the Zwarte Pieten debate
Don't fucking remind me about that shit.
It's finally silent again now that the holiday is over. Spare me this shit till next november.
>tfw you're racist because your childhood heroes were a bunch of black guys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-lE7i8lzMI&ab_channel=CrankyConstruct
>>44142595
>not nearly as well corroborated as the NT
Urge to tip fedora...rising.
>>44122038
That and, y'know, several disciples abandon him over it in the very next section, and he still doesn't back off
>>44142545
It was about getting rid of corruption in pracices while making sure dogma wasn't compromised.
Being able to admit that there were shitty bishops and do something about it was a good thing.
Contrast with the recent molestation scandals, where the response was "just shuffle him off to another parish that doesn't know about him". Where were all the excommunications?
>>44142545
>I only wish we had a Pope with such balls now
Just because the current pope doesn't believe in pissing the churches money away on stupid bullshit, graft, and corruption doesn't mean he doesn't have balls. if anything he's got giant juevos telling the bankers to eat shit. Too bad it'll never work because the Catholic church is corrupt to the core and the Pope can't just have people excommunicated and executed with a word anymore.
>>44151611
We're talking about the same pope who basically repeats the "Islam is a religion of peace" thing and encouraged Europe to take in more 'refugees'. Compare Benedict XVI, who got a load of shit for QUOTING a Byzantine Emperor on how shit Islam is.
The Catholic Church loves to fashion itself the moral backbone of Europe. If that is the case, then Europe is crippled.
>>44151886
The Pope is playing in a new arena, and he's doing a pretty good job at working the mass media to his favor.
He's saying what people want to hear, without really changing any of the Church's policies or stances. He's playing up the charity and peace angles of the Church, and doing a pretty amazing job at getting the people who criticize the Church the most to actually praise him as a pope.
The trade-off is that he doesn't look as strong and steadfast as JP2, but considering that the only people who'd complain are already people in his camp, it's a smart move to play the "New Pope for a New Generation" role while still upholding the tenets of the church.
>>44104388
Can never go wrong with Saint Peter.
>>44152306
I know for a fact that he has made people i know considering becoming catholic.Even a muslim
>>44151611
He excommunicated the Mafia.
Just think about that.
>>44104388
Why are Russian Orthodox priests so stylish?
>>44154397
Look at this!
There is a female saint whose iconography is her stabbing herself. I suspect that she was the "I'd rather die than give up my faith!" types.
I forget her name. I remember seeing an icon of hers in a museum in Prague.
>>44154834
Lucretia?
(cranach clearly has such a kink for redheads with knives.)
>>44154976
Isn't Lucretia incredibly pre-Christian? And didn't she stab herself because she was raped?
>>44155021
>>44154976
Thanks lads!
