what the hell is wrong with Maro?
How is meld a thing but this propably won't ever be seen again?
does he hate interesting and useful mechanics?
>>48256458
The game is focused on creature combat, and the tendency is to nerf big spell affects, removal and burn. Maro is just the guy in charge of trying to convince us that this is a good thing
>>48256458
Also, whether you like MaRo or not, storm-like mechanics tend to be overpowered and create miserable metas.
>>48257904
Yeah, all you'd need to break gravestorm in half is to have some way to get lots of permanents into graveyards - hello, sacrifice effects and tokens - and a halfway decent gravestorm card.
Or hell, what about a boardclear? If there's a sufficiently cheap gravestorm card out there that's strong enough - a gravestorm grapeshot, so to speak - that could turn out to be a massive force multiplier.
The only saving grace is that gravestorm probably wouldn't end up with the problem Storm had with repeated castings going exponential. Unless there was a gravestorm card that destroyed permanents, I guess.
Also Meld is kind of neat but at the same time I'm kind of disappointed that we didn't get those weird-ass triple-sided Duel Masters cards. They literally unfold! Twice!
>>48257986
>repeated castings going exponential
Explain, please? I've never heard that in my circle, since the wording on storm led me and my friends to believe that the spells aren't cast and thus don't add to the storm counter. Unless I'm grossly misunderstanding.
>>48258296
Storm copies don't count to storm, is in the errata. they aren't cast, they appear automatically on the stack
>>48257986
>Call of The Grave
>1BBBB
>Sorcery
>Gravestorm
>Target player sacrifices a creature
And
>Wasting Rot
>BBB
>Sorcery
>Gravestorm
>Target player loses 1 life
Honestly? I tried to make them as shit as I possibly could, but it still feels like the right deck could use them to break the game in half.
>>48258296
If I play 4 spells this turn and then I grapeshot, the storm count goes to 9 (4 original spells + grapeshot + 4 copied spells with grapeshot).
Bitter Ordeal does not put permanents into the yard, so it does not up the Gravestorm count
>>48258414
That's not how storm works. Copies created by the storm trigger aren't cast.
The issue with Gravestorm is that it is hard to find effects that are exciting enough when used in a normal setting that aren't broken with a bit of support.
Could you use Bitter Ordeal as a wincon in the newer Eggs?
>>48258364
>is in the errata
No it's right there on the card. You never counted the copies because they're copies, you don't cast them.
>>48258557
You would need like 40 storm. Don't be dumb.
>>48258626
Have you seen Eggs?
>>48257986
>found maro
>>48258393
>5 mana 4 color intensity highly situational one side "wrath"
>"GUYS WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU KILL 5 OF MY TOKENS? HE WILL MAKE ME SAC 5 MORE HOLY SHIT SO BUSTED BREAKING MAGIC HOLY SHIT MARO BUFF CREATURES MORE"
>completely ignoring the fact that grapeshot works because casting spells isnt that hard compaired to killing perma's
TG really is shit at magic. kill yourself
>>48257904
But prowess is a storm mechanic ;)
>>48257986
"My opponent saced 4 perma's and a 1BBBB card to wrath my board! So OP! I have no idea what damnation does what does that do!"
>>48258643
EGGS MILL SO GOOD SO MUCH VALUE WOW NEVER PRINT
>>48257986
>meld is kind of neat
hi maro
>>48258393
>>48257986
#notadeveloper
Fixing storm requires to make the storm spell really shitty (U. Instant. Target creature gains flying until end of turn. Storm) or put a hard cap on the storm count (1R. Sorcery. Grapeshot deals 1 damage to target creature or player. Storm (When you cast this spell, copy it for each spell cast before it this turn up to a maximum of 5 times. You may choose new targets for the copies.)
>>48258931
holy shit storm is not a problem kill yourself
>>48258949
>If you play the game your mechanics get better
Sounds like thats greens territory of the game. Look at goyf and sylvan advocate.
>>48258977
??????????????????????????????????
>>48258977
>Interacting with my opponent is hard!!!!!! WHY CANT I JUST RUN MORE CREATURES MARO PLEASE BUFF PLEASE
storm uses all zones to pull off what they pull off. making them discard early, exiling their yard, blowing up their enabling artifacts, clocking them, countering them, locking them, taxing them, hexproofing yourself, memoriciding them and sniping their lands all -destroy- their plan. i repeat, kill yourself.
>>48258949
>tg is bad at magic
>>48258931
this is a horrible idea.
what isn't broken doesn't need to be fixed.
>>48259029
>BUT IT'S NOT CREATURE BASED REEEEE MARO PLEASE NERF!!!!
>>48259019
storm is an idea stolen from green mechanics and thus should only be on green cards. If you had a thundergoyf that had creature storm it would make sense but storm is on red and blue cards which makes it imbalanced.
>>48259055
you make no sense. Casting spells is reds thing. Green is literally the color that has to do with non-spell cards (lands) the most.
>>48258949
There is a scale they use in R&D to kind of 'map out' how likely they are to reuse mechanics they've made. It ranges from 1 (things that will be in every set) all the way up to 10 (things they will almost never do for a Standard set again), and there's a number of criteria as to where a mechanic ends up; how much design space there is, how much complexity it forces on the players, how strong it is, etc.
That scale is called The Storm Scale because Storm sits at the top at 10.
>>48259095
R&D hates it =/= problem
nice meme tho
>>48259080
Green also has expansive cards that get better as you do green things. Fill your gy? you get a fat goyf. Drop your lands? Get a big sylvan advocate. Play lots of elves? various elf counting finishers will do various game winning thing. Green is the color about caring what youve done and whats haopened to the game, while red is about burning and casting and blue us about being crafty and casting. Storm style mechanics belong to green. Just wait for prowess to be removed from the game because its copying green design space.
>>48259124
Considering R&D are the people who decide what cards to make, their opinion means a lot more than yours as to whether or not Storm is a problem.
>>48259144
>appeal to authority
nice arguement, come back when you have something to say.
>>48259142
>red is about burning and casting
>blue us about being crafty and casting
>Storm (When you cast this spell, copy it for each spell cast before it this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)
Also no, green finds most forms of magic unnatural. Black cards the most about the graveyard. Any color can count important creature types. Green only cares about spreading life via big dudes and lands. Prowess (whenever you cast a noncreature spell) being in green's (we like creatures) design space just shows either how much you are attempting to troll or how little you actually care about being logically sound.
>>48259221
But they are the authority. Literally.
You can throw a fit and scream and cry, and you can even be -right-, but it doesn't matter because they make the cards. If they decided that Storm is never going to be printed again, it doesn't matter how right you are and how wrong they are, you can't make them print Storm cards.
>>48259229
Remember R and D were the same bunch of dipshits that invented the artifact lands, the entire Urza's block and Jace the Wallet Sculptor. They may be the authority on what does and doesn't get printed but they're pretty shit at their jobs with that lot on record.
>>48259229
I'm not forcing them to print storm cards, im simply saying that they have no idea what they are doing if they honestly think storm is a problem.
>>48259229
>But they are the authority.
Nope. We are the authority, the players. If they print crap we don't want all we have to do is to stop buying their shit and they'll get off their high horses real quick.
>>48259303
You say that like it's the same group of people designing every set. Yeah, Urza's was a fuckup (a fuckup so bad the entire design team got chewed out at once), Mirrodin had problems, but JTMS was nowhere near on the same par as that problem overall, and that's the last big mistake they've made in years.
But please, tell me how you're so much better than them at this and how you'd never make any mistakes and why your opinion is better than theirs.
>>48259399
autists actually believe that jace was the number one problem.
squad hawk is a serious lesson i hope we learned
>>48257564
The reason the game is focusing more on creatures is because every colour can interact with those.
Blue is the only colour that consistently gets counter effects. If Instants/Sorceries are supposed to matter again, you need to give every colour a way to interact with them.
Black has discard, but that needs to be preemptive.
Red could use some more change target effects or even remand effects.
Green could and does utilize hexproof combat tricks and I think has the most "can't be countered" effects. Still, something like "can't be destroyed by effects that say destroy" could be useful to force more fighting.
White can sometimes grant protection, and that's pretty much it. Taxation effects could be useful, but those are generally quite strong.
And most of those possibilites only interact with removal. You really need some counter-like effects for the other colours so that spells can become relevant again.
>>48259420
>drawing one random card is like drawing 4 cards
Value town was a mistake.
>>48256458
>Diversitystorm - When you cast this spell, copy it for each type of spell cast this turn.
>>48259425
remand isnt a red card, fork is a red card and functions as reds counterspell options.
>>48259503
It was much better than that if you also had a jace and a couple of fetches.
>>48259425
green, red and white all have at least one counterspell or ability that counters a spell.
black is the only color without counters afaik
>>48259095
It really should be the "Bands with Other" scale, though, since Storm being printed on a new card in a supplemental set seems reasonable, Bands with Other will never be printed on a new card period.
>>48259425
>"can't be destroyed by effects that say destroy"
>>48259221
Youre ignoring logic, green owns the mechanic of making dudes bigger, the new delerium tree, the delerium mushroom, wild nacatl and nimble mongoose all get bigger the more you play. Stay ignorant and keep jerking off your favorite colors but dont say nobody told you how the nwo color pie works.
>>48259577
Last printed in 5th edition and extremely specific. But it is a counter.
I always see this in my collection when looking for interesting black effects, but never put it in my decks. It actually would be incredibly strong, since my friends heavily splash green. But that feels lame sideboarding in EDH.
>>48256458
I think meld is fucking stupid. Mostly because I have to give up two cards for one. Then it will get exiled/killed/chumped for days. I would rather have the original two cards.
>>48259577
theres a black counter spell pay 3 life card, you fucking nerd
>>48259597
>It really should be the "Bands with Other" scale, though,
No, Bands with Other was unpopular and mechanically messy, but not overpowered. It'd be a firm 9 on the Storm Scale according to Maro. 8, 9 or 10 is almost a straight death knell for a mechanic, which makes it surprising that they brought back Madness for SoI and EMN.
>>48259657
They nerfed the fuck out of it, they know certain mechanics are op because of their environment instead of their raw ability so they built the meta around madness and its balanced.
>>48259614
The guy is clearly trolling.
>>48258514
I can not see them overcoming this. You want a mechanic not to have two modes (unbelievably shitty and wins you the game).
>>48259532
>fork is a red card
One card that isn't exactly evergreen. Meanwhile, blue gets a common counterspell in pretty much every set.
>remand isnt a red card
I think the type of effect would be in flavor for red. "Eh. don't feel like doing that, maybe later". In blue it's a worse version of "counter target spell", so it wouldn't be the end of the world if it would be red's only version of a counterspell.
>>48259577
That there somewhere exists one card won't doing anything to the design of new sets. If Standard needs answers to a strong spell deck, everyone needs to play blue because under the current colour pie blue is the only colour to interact with enemy instants and sorceries in a meaningful way.
If you want to change the general direction of the game so that non-permanents become relevant again, you need to change the colour pie so that doing something with them becomes natural for every colour, not some fringe cases that have one or two cards in eternal formats.
>>48259671
>>48259657
They also fixed the sloppy wording.
>>48256458
>There will never be another TS-esque set again
>There will never be new and interesting mechanics that push the boundaries of the game
>No enchantments that target Planeswalkers
>No experimental new abilities or keywords
>No throwback cards to bygone sets
>No cards that bend the color pie in new and interesting ways
>>48259657
Can you foresee an instance, ever, that the Bands with Other ability would appear on a new card that is not from a hypothetical "Un" set? I'd have to check, but I don't think the ability appears on any cards that aren't in the Legends expansion, which is itself a disaster of game design.
It also is an ability, like Phasing, that does something completely different now from when it was printed. The ability is so terrible that it had to be re-designed.
Speaking of which, I'd like Phasing back. It has specific uses in EDH that exile can't fill.
>>48259679
reiterate, reverberate and increasing vengence are all things. They combined have made up 9 years of standard enviroment legal play. Red copying things is pretty core to the game.
>>48259721
Phasing was basically supposed to be flicker, but isn't for balance reasons. The whole "pretend it doesn't exist" is stupid and a relic of them trying to reconcile everything.
>>48259679
>>48259729
Fork is reserved list and very powerful, which is why the effect isn't as common as it could be. Eventually they rightfully said fuck that and printed extremely similar cards.
>>48259425
Tax and balance effects will basically never be printed in any meaningful way again for two reasons.
1. White was supposed to get all tax based counters but after they tried they admitted that they are literally talent less hacks and couldn't figure out how to give blue interesting counters so just gave them the tax based counters again
2. Tax and more importantly balance effects punish your opponent for doing their thing. Do they ramp? One card and now its all gone. Do they artifact it up or swarm the field with creatures? Gone now. This is "unfun" to other players. Whites plan was to prevent the other player from playing their deck. They cite that because Balance effects punish the opponent on the deck building level and generally render "Go big" strategies useless players were upset so they removed it for being problematic.
The biggest problem is they stripped out two of whites biggest and most powerful identities and failed to replace them with something else. Its why white flounders so much and cant stand on its own two legs.
>>48259622
To be fair, colour hate used to be able to do pretty much anything to your enemy colours.
>>48259741
Phasing was basically the first attempt to make a flicker sort of mechanic that was taken over by exile. Due to it not being exile, though, it has interesting gameplay implications. I don't want it back as a set mechanic, but I'd like new phasing cards in Commander precons etc.
>>48259778
That's reasonable. They are willing to do fucking anything in fake sets. Storm came back in fake sets after all.
>>48259420
>a common could possibly be the problem card in a deck with mythics
Le tg is le bad at magic face.png
>>48259751
It has Wraths and incredibly versitile removal. And it isn't a slouch when it comes to big evasive creatures either, as Blue's creatures are usually smaller and WU is the only color to great reasonably costed flyers who aren't dragons.
>>48259818
Wrath and removal dont win you the game. They stall it out which is why White needs another color to do its thing like you said with WU flyers. White does tend to get some above the curve enders and evasives but the problem lies in getting to the point you can effectively use them and every other color can deal with them easily at great cost to you or simply beat you down before they can make an impact.
White super charges other colors with what it does but if it has no support in other colors it quickly flounders.
R&D has to try every stupid thing before they actually do something interesting or powerful.
Also, there are enough existing mechanics to make new cards forever.
>>48259751
Honestly, as someone who only got back into the game with Khans, it seems to be Green = big creatures, White = lots of small creatures and whatever removal I want if dare to touch my stuff. Maybe white could deal with tax effects if their strictly defensive a la "spells that target this cost 1 more to cast" or something like that.
Honestly, trying to speficifly design a white mechanic, nothing comes to my mind. RW military stuff, UW evasion/control, etc. is no problem, but mono white? Another round of Eldrazi would be easier.
>>48259914
>Also, there are enough existing mechanics to make new cards forever.
People say this, but I don't know how true that is without having balls to seriously fuck the game's legacy (color pie, established archetypes, etc.). There are only so many ways to make a 3 mana card black that kills a creature without drifting into absurdity.
>>48259949
The biggest problem with white is it has almost no draw power and very little land support. So that big 7 mana angel is very hard to get out in mono white. Once you blow your hand of removal your opponent can do what they want.
Those are the two biggest reasons White flounders or its own.
>>48259890
I genuinely don't know if ensuring that a monocolor deck exists and is powerful in serious competitive play for each color is worthwhile.
Monored exists because direct damage is surprisingly versatile and has been printed extensively. Monoblue exists due to historically having a huge chunk of the color pie. Monogreen exists because tribal nonsense over the span of two decades accumulated into elves. Monoblack exists because black gets a lot of freedom pie wise due to "drawbacks".
I know this may sound ludicrous, but I genuinely don't care if monocolor decks in serious play become a relic of the past. I don't want 4 color decks with Rhino though, but two color is the recommended combination for new players for a reason. In order for each color to have strengths and weaknesses, you want good decks to be two colors that compensate for each other.
>>48259890
I would argue that, prior to the creature power creep, having the most cost effective creatures at low cmc, 1-2 maybe 1-3, was whites built in wincon.
>>48259713
Damn, now I want to save up to get a booster box of either Time Spiral or Planar Chaos
Which one is the better buy?
>>48260064
I'm fine with mono decks not being viable. What I'm not fine with is inequality in the colors. All colors should be relatively equal in the grand scheme of things. Then really shine when paired with other colors that complement them or cover their weakness.
>>48260091
White weenies was a thing but its far to easy to shut down now. To many counters to it in EVERY color. It will likely never be viable again though since having such power low cost creatures would just super charge other decks that flounder early game.
>>48260091
"White weenie".
Also, Banding was a white mechanic. Though horrifically overcosted.
>>48260141
Banding like Rampage was designed with the notion that the most likely way your opponent will kill your attacker is by blocking it.
Turns out, Lightning Bolt and Terror are things. Or hey, fuck creatures in general because despite half the pack containing creatures, you can just buy the cards you want and just have Lotus, Wheel, Fireball.dec.
>>48259713
We literally JUST got an aura that can target planeswalkers and we just spend the last four sets revisiting "bygone sets" and seeing new variants of old cards.
If anything, I'd be more critical that they're dwelling too much on nostalgia and stuff we're already familiar with. Hopefully Kaladesh isn't just Mirrodin.
>>48260215
The main thing I hope they bring back for Kaladesh is colored artifacts
>>48260137
But how do you do that without fundamentally distorting eternal formats? Say theoretically they give white a mechanic that allows a monowhite deck to flourish in the standard scene, how do you ensure that you don't screw up Legacy Death & Taxes?
I don't know. I don't remember what the last monocolor deck in standard was other than Goblin Red, U devotion and B devotion.
>>48260183
Rampage was a pretty big mistake. It basically boils down to making trample better. Its shown up as a non-keyword a few times, I think, which is where it belongs. Like Bands with Other, I think Rampage is a Legends set exclusive? Except with more core set reprints.
>>48260231
I'm hoping for some good equipment, myself. Sigarda's Aid seems like a really powerful enabler, but what it needs is equipments that have ETB abilities or otherwise generate value immediately.
>>48260234
Just lock them. They already stated that legacy and vintage were "completed" in their eyes. Make it official.
You cant let the past limit you.
>>48258626
You don't need 40, you just need enough to remove anything remotely resembling a threat
>>48260231
I'm hoping that red cards are very few in number and artifacts do fucking everything. Like straight up I want artifacts that are copies of iconic spells.
>>48260259
If they give equipment etbs that would be retarded
The whole fucking point of sigarda's aid is that you can flash in equipment after your opponent has declared blocks
All they need to do is make equipment reasonably powerful like they've occasionally done in the past
>>48260238
Nah. Also, it really isn't a matter of making your creature bigger for more damage (most rampage creatures dot have trample and there weren't a lot of effects that granted it either). It is a matter of making him bigger so multi blocking does fuck all.
I've definitely had situations in Limited where Rampage would've been incredibly helpful. But that and casual play is really the only time when multi blocking is super relevant throughout the course of a game.
>>48260287
And get rid of a huge chunk of their player base? No, I don't even like eternal formats, but I know if they did that, our local gaming store would literally stop selling MTG.
>>48260302
And then you die to threats that were already in play. Or deck yourself first.
>>48260370
Guess I was wrong. I keep forgetting that Mirage is filled with stupid shit like that. I don't know if it is mathematically the weakest block ever, but I very distinctly remember breaking open packs of Mirage, Visions, and Weatherlight and being baffled as to why I would play all these cards that work to help the opponent.
>>48259361
Your a small subfaction of the players, "Players who want Storm to be reprinted". You're fucking tiny.
>>48260123
http://mtg.dawnglare.com/?p=viz&s=PLC|TSP
>>48261984
They cater to people who don't even play the game all the time, so there's at least hope
>>48258414
>If I play 4 spells this turn and then I grapeshot, the storm count goes to 9 (4 original spells + grapeshot + 4 copied spells with grapeshot).
what? no. what?
play the game before trying to discuss this shit
>>48258414
That only works if you remand your own grapeshot
>>48262810
what the fuck are you talking about either? that wouldnt put your storm count up to 9
instances of the storm spell created by the storm trigger are not cast. they are put directly onto the stack
>>48262810
That just gives you a second storm trigger with two more copies than the first, storm copies still aren't cast.
>>48262858
>>48260259
Remember batterskull?
Equipment will never be good again.
>>48259577
If you count mana tithe you gotta count dash hopes
>>48259577
Black has the nobbtrap Dash Hopes.
>>48259425
>If Instants/Sorceries are supposed to matter again, you need to give every colour a way to interact with them.
Yeah, all the colours really needed spell interaction/counters, maybe like so:
>White
Can "counter unless you pay X"
>Blue
Only colour that can straight up counter spells with no other conditions
>Black
Can do any of these effects, but some life payment
>Red
Can change spell targets and copy spells
>Green
Can grant spells "can't be countered" and counter spells that target creatures
>>48256458
Because this is overpowered as fuck, and meld exists on only 6 cards?
>>48259361
>We are the authority, the players.
I don't think you understand what authority is.
>>48271682
Bitter ordeal is overpowered as fuck?
>>48259713
There are enchantments that target planeswalkers you fucking idiot
>>48256458
There are already combo decks that give out a huge gravestorm (eggs, reclaimer), and it's not yet a combo-worthy mechanics.
If that's not degenerate, then IDK what is.
