Thought i'd get more response here as Sheev posting has killed /tv/
The Dark side is more powerful than than the Light.
All these guys were capable of fighting more than one Jedi at once and disposing of them.
Only Yoda was capable of taking on these guys one on one and he was several hundred years old.
Well, mind the "one master, one disciple" policy. It is what makes them strong...
But so few.
>>43770108
The Dark Side gives easier and quicker access to the same power and since it's also unrestricted, it's way easier to utilize. A Jedi could throw you around the room just as easily as that huge crate, but it's against their philosophy to use the Force to directly control a person's existence. Hence why they have work "around" and throw shit AT you, instead of throwing YOU.
Also, Vader was ridiculously powerful because he was the motherfucking CHOSEN ONE, and Sidious is quite likely the most powerful Sith that has ever existed. What he lacks in sheer power in comparison to Vader, he makes up with experience and knowledge. Sidious was really fucking powerful.
>>43770108
>Only Yoda
>Who is Luke Skywalker
>Who is Obi Wan Kanobi
>>43770108
Ambition makes people powerful, not the force.
What is Sheev posting? Will it take the place of Bane posting?
Anyway
>darth maul
>gets killed by a padawan
>dooku
>former jedi that min maxed dueling
>vader
>jedi cranked up to 11
Your only case would be sidious
How is this /tg/ related?
>>43770225
There are tons of /tg/ Star Wars games and it's better than most of the shitposting that occupies the board.
>prequel shit
Nuh-uh.
>>43770220
just because some of them are former Jedis doesn't mean they aren't more powerful now
>>43770225
Lot of times /tg/ acts as fallback for discussion of established fantasy/scifi settings.
Nothing new.
>>43770241
These fuckers are getting more obnoxious by the day I swear, the other day someone had the gall of complaining about a character art dump because OH NOES! there was another one already. So we shouldn't have discussions or image dumps for what? Another fucking quest? Or one of the 9000+ STAT ME threads that are coming up?
I imagine it has much to do with the fact that Sith have no reason to hold back in fighting while the Jedi are taught to use restraint in their fights although they don't usually go around picking fights so there's that to.
because jedi's are jedi's not to grasp power or kill or fight.
its a testament to jedi's raw power that their more defensive and peacful ideology allows them to be great fighters purely by consequence.
Sith's outright goals are to be great fighters and killers and power grabbers.
>>43770266
Just whining from a bunch of general babby newfags, no reason to give them the time of day.
>>43770253
Dooku was able to fight against 2 opponents at once because he learned that style as a jedi. Anakin was born powerful, it wasn't related to him becoming a sith.
>>43770252
>prequel shit
>prequel
Sorry, but Star Wars in general won't win an academy award for good writing.
I just recently rewatched A New Hope and damn, that movie is objectively shit. I mean, don't get me wrong, I really like the original trilogy, but they are not good moviesOf course not as bad as the prequels
>>43770108
>>The Dark side is more powerful than than the Light.
Ignoring the obvious "plot armor" and "plot power level" shenanigans, it depends really. The distinction between Light-Dark were different in different eras. In the movies plot dictates the outcome of Jedi duels, although the dark side being so strong is attributed to the "Rule of two" going on for generations for the sith. This rule dictated that only two sith may exist at once one that has the power and the other who craves it until he gets stronger and take the power away by force. Applying "powerlevel" logic here will mean that the Sith has achieved their pinnacle at that era because they have selectively find the absolute best candidates for training and go through the harshest challenges to rise to power which will selectively breed the most powerful of all. They also had the advantage of being hidden and unknown.
The Jedi had a more quiet life with much less actual need to do their best and they trained basically anyone that was force sensitive. Their own laws and ideas shackled them down and only the most formidable ones were really on par. The world they lived in also clearly limited their movements. But they had the advantage of numbers, trust and cooperation which lead to them defeating the Sith in the first place
Technically the dark side should be stronger because it represents the unrestrained exploit of the force, that is what "UNLEMETID PUUWAAAH" means really. On the other hand this is a double edged sword as the Dark side is also ruled with laws of power, thus their practitioners can turn on each other to eliminate "competition." Students can rebel against their or masters can send their students to their death and just write them off to get new ones.
>>Only Yoda was capable of taking on these guys one on one and he was several hundred years old.
Ummm Samuel Jackson clearly defeated Palpatine one on one until Anakin fucked it up. Remember ObiWan defeated Darth Vader and Darth Maul.
>>43770157
>Who is Luke Skywalker
Loser, who did nothing useful?
>>43770108
>Yoda: Yes, run! Yes, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.
>Luke: Vader... Is the dark side stronger?
>Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive
>>43770313
>Ummm Samuel Jackson clearly defeated Palpatine one on one until Anakin fucked it up.
unless that was all for show. consider all his help died in two swings.
>>43770305
>objectively shit
Your review is objectively shit.
>>43770305V is best. Fuck George Lucas
>>43770225
Discussion of the fluff of a established /tg/ setting is always /tg/.
Yes, that means we can talk about "Dallas", the 1970s / 80s soap opera if it behooves us, as that was a setting of a roleplaying system. We can also discuss any book or series of books by any author if we find the contextual application of their universe beneficial to our particular game.
>>43770352
>implying that Samuel Jackson could be defeated without base treachery
>>43770342
>>43770352
Good point, we may never know for sure. But I would prefer to believe that he wasn't that much of a pushover that Palpatine could still afford to put up an act for Anakin all that time. I mean yeah seriously all the jedi masters were stupidly incompetent but that is getting o na new level of ridicules.
>>43770354
Ok, go ahead and tell me how IV isn't objectively bad.
The screenplay: shit
The acting: bad, except for Sir Alec Guinness, Peter Cushing and (partly) Harrison Ford
The effects: really good for the time, I'll admit that
The overall story: boring, stereotypical, too predictable
The characters: only Vader, Obi Wan and Tarkin are remotely interesting
>>43770398
This thread reaks of treason.
>>43770305
>>43770411
Your review: bad
See, it's objectively true.
>>43770225
I COULD USE IT IN A SETTING.
>>43770305
kill yourself it's a space opera, the writing is great for what it tried to do.
>>43770156
>it's against their philosophy to directly control a person's existence
They push, pull, and grab people all the time, and that's not even getting started on mind tricks.
>>43770438
>>43770443
great rebuttal, now I'm convinced of your position
>>43770411
The screenplay: It's perfectly serviceable, it carries you from each action beat to the next with very little fat. It's not Schindlers List, but can you explain exactly how it is shit?
The acting: See, now I can spot you have shit for brains because Alec Guiness sucks in Star Wars. He hated working on that film, and he's phoning it in. And are you not even going to mention James Earl Jones' amazing voice work?
The effects: As you said, they're great.
The overall story: It's a classic adventure story. I bet there are at least three other movies that follow the same story beats and arcs that you love. If it ain't broken, don't fix it.
The characters: Tarkin is barely a character. Solo is still cool to this day.
I think you're just being a bit of a hipster there sport.
The Light Side is like being a professional athlete; it's hard, takes a long time, a lot of practice, hard work, persistence, patience, and in many cases no small amount of natural talent to get anywhere with it.
The Dark Side is front loading on shitloads of steroids and chemical enhancements; it makes you stronger faster, it's easier, takes less work, but there's plenty of evidence to suggest that it alters your ability to make sound judgements some of the time (besides the fact that of you STOP acting like a dick you loose your power), and just like using those drugs and enhancements you both become dependent on them (a Sith who stops using the Dark Side will be pathetically weak) and they eventually sort of cap out how much they give you for what you give up for it, as shown how most Dark Siders for all of their power still loose simply become they become too reliant on something that takes more then it gives in the end.
Palpatine was arguably the most powerful Sith ever and his power was literally killing him as it caused a physician degeneration of his body over time, and Windu who was probably twenty years younger could equal him or beat him in a fight even WITH Sheev juicing up on the Dark Side.
The Jedi's huge losses in the Clone Wars likely had to do with the fact that they weren't even required to learn how to fence against other lightsabers for the last millennia and their duties involved peacekeeping and investigation, not warfare. In addition there were so few that ANY losses hurt them tremendously.
Basically the Clone Wars is a bunch of cops being distracted and fighting a war they weren't trained for and then getting shanked by an enemy who's literally done nothing EXCEPT train themselves to kill Jedi, who even then did it from behind and indirectly rather then head-on.
If anything Palpatine's actions prove that the Dark Side's go-to move (big violent conquests and direct battle) is actually much less effective then being subtle.
>>43770470
>using anime reaction images
Now i'm convinced that you're a knob end
>>43770108
Literally answered in the source material.
https://youtu.be/infZSKB5L9I?t=47s
>>43770470
I'm not gonna argue with you because you're either trolling or too stupid for me to waste time arguing, I just wanted to let you know you should kill yourself and that your opinion is shit.
>>43770498
Now you sound even more hipster than him, I honestly didn't think it was possible
>>43770108
>Maul
>killed The Worst Jedi
>killed by a padawan
>Dooku
>was a jedi before becoming a sith
>killed by a jedi knight
>Emperor
>tried spinning because that's a good trick
>nearly killed by windu, ass saved by anakin
>stalemates in a fight with a puppet
>killed by his apprentice
>Vader
>beat to a crisp by Kenobi once
>killed by feels
Keep in mind: the Jedi were weak with the Force in the prequels.
>>43770108
In this picture I see two men killed by Jedi, two of them defeated by a Padawan and a self-taught Jedi who was making it up as he went along, and one guy who was killed by the guy who got defeated by the self-taught Jedi.
So we have one success on here. Kinda.
>>43770528
>>stalemates in a fight with a puppet
You are giving too much credit to a CGI animation, at least the puppet was more "alive."
>>43770406
I think the key point about palpatine is that he was continuously underestimated. every time he revealed something there was a complete image underneath making it look like he'd done everything by luck rather than brute force.
even by the end vader probably thought he was an essential power when all he was was a fucking pet project that literally never actually needed to contribute in any way.
>>43770541
It's really easy to hate on CGI and give sumptuous blowjobs to practical effects if you conveniently forget shit like this was in the original episode 1.
>>43770572
also continuing this, that was the prophecy. the sith would take over, kill all jedi and take over the galaxy, then that one curiosity with too many midichlorians breaks out of his masters control because of a chain of freak coincidences and kills both of them.
and that's the power of the light side. they did nothing useful with their lightsabers at any point and then win when they're at their lowest point in every way because they made the enemy kill itself.
>>43770572
It really WAS Windu just being that badass, canonically.
Palpatine was incredibly dangerous, but his fatal flaw was arrogance, pure and simple; if he WASN'T arrogant he would've been okay ruling the Republic as a shadow governer (which he basically already did) rather then making himself Emperor and painting a target on his back like ended up doing.
He challenged the THE guy when it comes to lightsaber fights to a lightsaber fight, and just automatically assumed he would win.
In his defense most of the Jedi were, as Windu himself said, "keepers of the peace, not soldiers", and only the most skilled, resourceful, or lucky Jedi were able to adapt to the war, but Windu himself (with his hard-assed nature and his heavy focus on combat skill and dueling instead of diplomacy and subterfuge) was more like the Jedi of old who were war-leaders and generals first and foremost, like an order of military crusaders then religious monks who happened to have martial skills.
Palpatine was definitely on the ropes when Anakin literally disarmed Windu, but was likely not nearly as hurt as he pretended to be: the "scarring" was just him putting so much effort into killing Mace that he couldn't afford to keep up whatever crazy trick he used to mask all that Dark Side corruption he had.
>>43770108
Didn't Windu chimp out on sheev and only lose because Vader showed up?
>>43770572
Honestly, Vader likely WAS quite useful just due to his sheer presence and military experience, but the speed with which Palpatine was willing to abandon him for Luke suggests his broken condition was definitely not an ideal scenario for Sheev, just the scenario that at that point he had to roll with since any halfway decent replacements for Sith Apprentice had been killed at the time and he needed a strong right hand to consolidate power on the Galaxy.
>>43770673
>the "scarring" was just him putting so much effort into killing Mace that he couldn't afford to keep up whatever crazy trick he used to mask all that Dark Side corruption he had.
Except he's scarred as shit after. If it were just his illusion fading, he'd bring the illusion back up after the fight.
He was scarred by the lightning. Later on in the movie, he's even like "look at these scars the Jedi gave me."
People give Palpatine too much credit. He barely took over the Republic. If Anakin hadn't stopped Windu, Windu would have executed Palpatine.
>>43770694
Yup.
Windu basically had him on the ropes before Poor Impulse Control Jedi showed up and switched sides halfway and cut his fucking arms off mid-fight.
Even HE recognized how retarded a move that was after he'd done it.
>>43770694
yeah, it's because jedi and sith both have a crippling weakness to sneak attacks
>>43770673
>It really WAS Windu just being that badass, canonically.
what canon was this
>Palpatine was incredibly dangerous, but his fatal flaw was arrogance, pure and simple; if he WASN'T arrogant he would've been okay ruling the Republic as a shadow governer (which he basically already did) rather then making himself Emperor and painting a target on his back like ended up doing.
>He challenged the THE guy when it comes to lightsaber fights to a lightsaber fight, and just automatically assumed he would win.
he does defeat all the conventional attacks by the jedi with ease, though, as well as the duel. the only one who lays a fucking finger on him is vader.
>>43770498
> Gets uppity about Chinese Cartoon reaction image.
> Posts on a Chinese Cartoon website.
There's one in every thread.
>>43770738
>what canon was this
George Lucas in the RotS commentary.
>>43770729
A thing I saw used to describe it was not a Force power but a Sith Alchemy thing; basically he was using a mask of sorts at all times, but as soon as he began to heavily use the Force it fell apart as it wasn't really able to hide him when he actively started doing things.
Think of it like a camoflague net on a tank; sure the tank looks like a rock, but as soon as it starts moving the camo is ruined and you see that it's definitely a tank.
Aside from that, after he'd "won" he didn't even fucking bother with subtly; he built a massive black palace of evil, made himself Emperor, and dropped any pretense at being anything other then he was to anyone who'd bother to look. He has good propaganda, but it's pretty telling that those in contact with him feared him more then they liked him.
Also?
Lighting doesn't turn your nails black and pointy, cause your voice to drop seven octaves and give it reverb, and turn your eyes red and black, while we have plenty of evidence suggesting the Dark Side does ALL of those things.
>>43770738
The cannon Lucas wrote.
>>43770729
>"look at these scars the Jedi gave me."
In that same speech he also claims he's becoming Emperor to protect everybody and show them that they are unafraid.
After which point he installed a regime chiefly based on military control and fear.
>>43770786
>but as soon as he began to heavily use the Force it fell apart as it wasn't really able to hide him when he actively started doing things.
Then it would have disappeared the moment he tried spinning, or when he started doing Force zaps.
Instead, we see him getting scarred from his evil lightning. Taking a face full of magic evil lightning for an extended period of time is probably going to fuck you up. I mean, that guy was frying non-stop for at least a solid minute there. Yeah, magic hate lightning shit can turn your eyes red and black. Why not?
>>43770470
Their rebuttal is that fiction cannot be objectively bad because it is all a matter of taste. If it wasn't a fucking buzzword at this point, then I'd call you an autist for thinking that your opinion can be objective, but instead I'll just say fuck off and go realize that not everything in the world is or has to be objective.
>>43770411
>Not wanting to watch Kurosawa IN SPESSSSSS
Shit taste bruh.
Whats important to remember about the Jedi is that by the point of the prequels, they had mostly become diplomats and philosophers. The Jedi warrior tradition, while still strong in a few notable individuals (most of whom you know because they actually appear in the movies and shows) had mostly fallen by the wayside. The majority of jedi were those green saber wielding mooks you see dying in Ep 2, who only knew the most basic of saber work an practiced it primarily as a form of meditation. This, combined with the natural sith inclination towards direct conflict means that yes, typically sith were stronger, with the exception of more experienced Jedi who hadn't slacked in their training. Remember that the republic had been at peace for centuries by the time of the movies, so much so it didn't even have a damned army because there was no need for one.
>>43770786
>Sith Alchemy
more like Sith Sorcery, Zannah used Sith Sorcery to hide her affiliation to the dark side from the Jedi when she broke to the Jedi Archives.
>>43770840
True, he's lying because it was his own dumbass lightning bolt that fucked up his face. But I don't think he's lying about being scarred in the fight, because that's literally what we're shown. We're not shown any Sith alchemy. There's no quick scene where a guard walks in on him putting on his makeup (which they could have easily done since they did a scene like that in Empire with Vader).
>>43770313
The 'Rule of Two' was idiotic.
A single Sith master could not possibly cast the recruitment net wide enough to get the best candidates in a galaxy of trillions upon trillions.
It's real easy to destroy the Sith forever if all you have to do is kill two people.
Apprentices can kill their masters without actually being more powerful, as many did via ambush/trickery/poison etc
>>43770108
My personal head canon is this.
Every time you use the force, your will pushes against the force and the force pushes back. With the light side, you go to elaborate lengths to avoid letting that reaction control you or cause you or others harm.
With a dark sider, you take off the training wheels and put the pedal to the metal. You get a stronger up-front effect, plus you can do things that simply aren't possible to do safely. But in exchange, the Force pushes much more strongly back at you, and the consequences can be brutal. And, often, self-defeating. Yeah you get your powerful lightning strike, but then lose the battle... and winning the battle was the whole point of summoning lightning to begin with.
That backlash can be nasty. It can take a toll on your body, your sanity, your good sense, and your destiny. More than big enough to overcome the huge boost in immediate raw power you get.
So if by "powerful" you mean able to accomplish more exotic effects, or more powerful manifestations of existing effects, then sure, the Dark Side really is more powerful. But if by powerful you mean better able to accomplish your ultimate goals, then the Light side is more powerful.
So really, which one is more powerful depends on what you exactly mean by powerful.
>>43770729
If anyone could have killed palpatine it was Windy, who was basically the baddest motherfucker in the Order, possibly moreso than Yoda. Remember this was the guy who was so all angry all the time he mastered his anger via an ancient lightsaber form that drove others who tried to use it insane and managed to find his zen in being a hard.motherfucker. he was basically the Jedi equivilant of saint Moses the black.
>>43770912
>>43770881
I think I'm just gonna go with what Lucas said on the commentary with this one.
>>43770881
it looked calculated as fuck. he wanted to look like he was going to die any second and had reason enough to fear for his life to do that unless anakin stops the fight.
>>43770915
The rule of two was something established post sith war when the sith went into hiding in an attempt.to limit their natural tendency to betray one another. Palpatine amusingly shat all over this conventional wisdom and had at least three apprentices at any given time who all thought they were the only ones.
>>43770912
>it was his own dumbass lightning bolt that fucked up his face
According to the Wook, Palps' actor stated in an interview that the post-lightning look was his natural appearance. The normal person face was just a disguise.
>>43770944
Yep. Palpatine pulled his secret "save my ass" move with the lightning, which Windu easily turned back onto Palpatine. Palpatine was fucked and Windu had won.
There is no universe where Palpatine wins that fight without some kind of outside help.
>>43770108
They were equal, the difference is in training. Yer average Jedi can be mediocre or average and still find roles. A Sith that is mediocre or average is used by their master to test another apprentice or just killed. As a result, Sith are basically quite elite whereas by and large the Jedi aren't.
Also, Obi Wan fought at least 2 of these people and won so not all Jedi are as weak as you're making them out to be. Fuck, Obi Wan fought Maul when he was still a raw rookie. He got better therafter, eventually becoming a master of one style and experienced in a number of other styles of light saber combat
>>43770915
I know right? But this runs on on is Hollywood logic.
>>43770108
Of course the dark side's more powerful, they can spin.
That's a good trick
>>43770484
Guiness didn't hate working on the films, he just hated being so strongly associated with it afterwards.
>>43770108
Yoda himself flat-out said the Dark Side was not stronger then the Light. And I'm pretty sure an Ex-Jedi Grand Master probably knows a lot more about the Force then some random poster on /tg/.
>>43770526
>>43770743
>hurr 4chan was started as weeb shit, that means I'm entitled to derail threads with my retarded cartoons
Not the other guy, but holy fuck why are you autists always so defensive about weeb shit?
>>43770895
I feel this is kind of a moot point. Sith enforce the rule of two and gear themselves towards being good at fighting, and if they still consistently end up losing against peace-time guys practicing tai chi as you put it, that makes them even worse.
True, the average jedi got worse with time, but the exceptional individuals still proved more than effective, so the dark side doesn't have that much to brag about.
>>43770992
Such derail, great distraction.
>>43770972
Obiwan was trained by quigon jinm who was extremely iconoclastic as far as Jedi went, routinely told the council to fuck themselves, and probably trained obiwan in the arts of shanking a motherfucker while other apprentices learned force calligraphy
>>43770993
>practicing tai chi
Tai chi when done properly was actually supposed to be a very effective martial art (it translates as 'supreme ultimate boxing')
>>43771004
Still a Jedi though. And Quigon was still loyal to the Order. Just because he was almost a grey jedi at times doesn't change that. Besides, Obiwan reached his apex after that point so obviously the Order has some hard motherfuckers.
Windu was pretty boss as I recall
>>43770967
>Palpatine's actor says
Okay. Who gives a shit, though?
>>43770992
>that means I'm entitled to derail threads
That's literally what you are doing because someone used a reaction image you didn't like, go be a hipster somewhere else while we're having a discussion
>>43770953
It just shows Sheev is good at improv as well as long-term planning.
>>43770967
So does Lucas in the DVD commentary.
>>43770971
When asked directly said that it would need to be Windu, Yoda, or Anakin at that point to kill Palapatine; no one else was powerful enough to have sufficed, and after Yoda saw that his battle was a stalemate he knew that he couldn't kill Palpatine right there in Coruscant while surrounded by an army that would tip the already precarious balance of the fight in Sheev's favor.
Anakin wasn't a Master largely because of his personality problems, not because he wasn't an incredibly skilled Jedi.
>>43770992
The only derail is idiots like you crying about Japanese shit on a site that, at its core, is Japanese shit. Shut the fuck up.
>>43771023
I know, I practice and teach it, it doesn't change that usually you will associate tai chi with old guys in the park on sunday mornings
>>43771027
Pretty sure the word of the actor is a reasonably authoritative source on their own character, especially if it isn't contradicted by George.
>>43770953
>he wanted to look like he was going to die
He did a good job of pulling that off by putting himself in a situation where he was going to die.
>>43771024
Qui-Gon said it himself; he foresaw Obi-Wan being a far greater Jedi then Qui-Gon ever was.
>>43770694
That's debatable. Either Palpatine let Windu overpower him to set up for Anakin's betrayal... or he really was nearly defeated. Between mind reading and pre-cog, there really isn't any way to be sure.
>>43770709
See I interpret that differently. I think he cripples his apprentices to ensure that they don't become too powerful and defeat him. Like General Grievous. It makes him more powerful on the battlefield, but also more dependent on the Emperor and less powerful with the Force. Basically, the Emperor made anakin the perfect tool for him, while also crippling him as a potential rival.
(And, yes, Anakin turned into an amalgam of every Big Bad he fought in the Prequels. He became Darth Maul, Darth Tyranus, and General Grievous all wrapped up onto one lonely pathetic man-in-a-can.)
>>43771061
No. Sorry.
>>43771061
It's SUPPORTED by George even.
Separately and in a different context.
>>43771076
>My headcanon overwrites official statements
>>43771071
Palpatine was pretty distraught when he found Anakin crippled. I honestly think he wanted him as an apprentice.
You know, I always really liked the whole 'rival orders of mystical warrior-monks in a sci-fi setting' aspect of Star Wars. Its just a damned shame it's been handled so badly in the movies.
>>43770305
I agree with you anon, the movies were good when I first saw them as a kid but watching them now theyre like a 6/10. Theyre the kind of movie that youd watch with some friends and then just kinda bullshit around with it going in the background.
>>43770345
This.
The Dark side is a quicker and easier path to power than Light. But Light isn't seductive and won't destroy you, while the Dark will.
And it also bears noting that Yoda was winning his duel against Palpatine in Ep III before that explosion knocked him several stories down.
>>43771071
>Between mind reading and pre-cog, there really isn't any way to be sure
Sure there is. Just watch the DVD commentary by Lucas of RotS.
>See I interpret that differently. I think he cripples his apprentices to ensure that they don't become too powerful and defeat him.
That's a hard sell for me, but it might be true. It's equally likely that he simply assumed he'd be able to control Anakin anyway since, you know, he did.
He didn't train Grevious though, Dooku did.
>>43771091
Well it's still an investment turning out bad
>>43771085
>What happened on-screen overrides the word of a guy who is no longer in control of the franchise because he fucked it up and an actor who was there just cashing a check
Show me the scene where Palpatine puts on his Sith Make-Up.
>>43770352
Isn't the canon that Palpatine lost the duel part, but when he started acting old-man-weak it was an act? He banked everything on Anakin's gullibility. And yes, it was a tremendous gamble, but it paid off in spades.
>>43771091
>>43771119
>"Crap. The entire point of me ditching Dooku was so I DIDN'T have to have a slow-ass guy as my apprentice."
>>43771129
It is. The RotS commentary track has George say that Palpatine lost the duel legitimately.
>>43771129
>"I'm a weak old man"
>zaps lightning at samuel l. jackson
What.
>>43770156
It depends upon what you consider canon. But I've never bought the whole 'Sidious was the most powerful Sith in history' thing.
Some of the EU/vidya Sith did some crazy shit that overshadows anything we see Sheev do in the movies.
>>43771122
>what should the writer and actor know about their character?
You can't be serious
>>43770952
The commentary regarding the "mask" is actually from Ian McDiarmid. Though he probably got it from Lucas anyway.
>>43771129
>Gamble
>Anakin doing something dumb.
Suckers bet.
>>43771122
So you're saying it WAS true (as Lucas himself said) until Lucas was no longer in control and then it stopped being true and somehow your headcannon became the official explanation retroactively.
>>43770939
That gets swamped by the individual power of the force user. The Emperor was more powerful than anybody except maybe Yoda. So against anybody else he'll kick ass not necessarily because the Dark Side is more powerful in general but because he's more powerful in particular.
>>43771159
A lot of stupid shit happens in the prequels.
Show me the scene with Sith Make-up or shut up. Dark side makes you look like a raisin? Well I guess Maul and Dooku were wearing Sith Make-up, too. Oh, but I thought using the Force made the Sith Make-up not work. Maybe they put on a lot more foundation or something. I mean, Sith Foundation.
>>43771150
>Some of the EU/vidya Sith did some crazy shit that overshadows anything we see Sheev do in the movies.
Stupid fucking Force Unleashed and it's knockoff God of War gameplay....
>>43771188
So glad that shit isn't isn't canon anymore.
>>43771150
All of that "he's the strongest Sith of all time" came from material now considered Legends. George made no comments on it as far as I've ever seen.
>>43771175
What George said about his movies still holds true for his movies. Just because he's no longer the owner does not mean his commentary is now irrelevant.
>>43771213
>What George said about his movies still holds true for his movies. Just because he's no longer the owner does not mean his commentary is now irrelevant.
In fact as far as Disney has said, his films and what he said about his movies are the ONLY thing that's canon, accepting Clone Wars (which he helped direct and write anyway) and anything that comes afterward.
>>43771066
he wasn't, he had to zap windu to get him to threaten him.
>>43771159
What is "death of the author?"
Lucas may have intended something different, but the movie clearly shows Palpatine getting fucked in the face by lightning. Considering Lucas is no longer a part of Star Wars, and considering how much he fucked up Star Wars with the prequels, you're better off letting the movies stand on their own than listening to what he has to say.
>>43770494
But what about Darth Scion and using the force to LITERALLY hold himself together?
>>43771067
Yeah, true that alright. Gotta imagine Qui-Gon taught him some tasty tricks though.
Come to think of it, considering the apparent commonality of saber locks, the value of force-throwing a saber and the use of having a backup weapon, why do we never see a Jedi, especially Obi Wan (who switched style because of his fight with Maul and almost died then because he was unarmed), use a dagger sized saber?
Like, saber lock? Shank the bitch in the side. Need range? Launch the dagger-saber and use the force to get it back. Your saber gets broken or taken off you? Still got a back up!
>>43771188
I was more referring to Nihilus in Kotor 2 and the Sith Emperor in TOR as well as some of the quasi-mythological stuff attributed to ancient Sith like Marka Ragnos & Tulak Hord
>>43771235
Windu already had him backed in a corner with his lightsaber pointing at him, saying shit like "the oppression of the Sith will never come back."
If he was trying to play weak, he'd continue cowering. Looks more like Palpatine tried to catch Mace off-guard and fucked up.
>>43771150
EU and vidya aren't canon.
>>43770108
Luke shit all over Vader in their last fight.
>>43771185
There's some hints of physical Dark Side corruption here and there still. During TCW, which is considered canon, Dooku's eyes turn yellow when he gets really angry. Maul's eyes in the films were also an odd yellowish shade. It's subtle, but it's there. Maul and Dooku didn't use the Dark Side as much or as long as Palps did, though, so they haven't gone full raisin yet. Compared to the shit Palps pulled, Maul and Dooku were still flailing in the kiddie pool.
>>43771231
>In fact as far as Disney has said, his films and what he said about his movies are the ONLY thing that's canon
No. They've never said "and what he said about his movies." Also, the movies aren't the only thing that's canon. There's plenty of other works that Lucas had nothing to do with out right now that's canon.
>>43771242
At the very top end there seems to be all kinds of crazy powers the Dark Side has within Sith sorcery/alchemy but very very few are both powerful and knowledgable to actually use it.
>>43771250
It would have been a pretty big fuckup. Right up until he tried to lightning Mace in the face, the guy was just going to arrest him.
It was only after the lightning that Windu could stop and think "hang on, no court is going to convict this guy, I'll have to kill him, he's too dangerous" - and unfortunately, that's when Anakin was there and decided to be a fucking idiot.
>>43771242
>The dark side of the Force leads to abilities some consider... unnatural.
The dark side is all about twisting the Force to do what you want it to do. In this case, Sion had so much hate he could keep himself held alive and together long after he should have been dead many times over.
>>43771250
go watch the fucking thing. all he says is "you're under arrest my lord the senate will decide your fate"
>>43771236
"Death of the author" is something else.
>>43771243
>saber and the use of having a backup weapon, why do we never see a Jedi, especially Obi Wan (who switched style because of his fight with Maul and almost died then because he was unarmed), use a dagger sized saber?
Well, from a simple fighting standpoint it is REALLY hard to push against a guy with one arm when he gets to use two while you try to maneuver around to shank him; you basically need all three of strength, height, and weight for that to work.
This goes double when all a lightsaber needs to do is give you a glancing touch to disable you.
>>43771265
Dooku was certainly getting there.
>>43771299
No, it really isn't.
>>43771287
Which is just bad writing.
"You're under arrest. Wait, you can do lightning? Shit, I've changed my mind. No court would ever put him in jail!"
>>43770157
Luke got his shit pushed in the first fight with Vader and turned the second battle around by slipping to the Dark Side for a bit.
Obi Wan was more of a schemer than a fighter. His scheme was brilliant, though. Full of goddamn holes, but inspired.
>>43771300
Yeah but is there any reason why you couldn't just sidestep past the dude, let his force carry him past you and shank him or slash him as he falls forward?
>>43771129
Again, it's unclear, but with enough precognition and the ability to cloud the jedi council's precog (revealed in TPM), it's hardly a gamble at all.
It's like knowing via psi that the underdog will win the superbowl. You throw your life's savings on that team. Yeah if you lose, you're toast. It LOOKS risky. But you know in advance that the play will be a success. So how much of a risk is it, really?
By comparison, look at Luke warning Jabba the Hutt in Return of the Jedi. Luke looks like he's doomed when he gives Jabba his last warning. Jabba laughs. But both Luke and we the audience know that Luke's got the whole situation under control and that it's Jabba who is hanging by the thread, though he doesn't realize it.
That's Windu fighting Palpatine. Windu thinks he has his foe on the ropes and defeated. But Palpatine knows how the story goes via his precognition. He knows it's Windu who's about to be defeated. Maybe Windu is the better swordsman in abstract. But the Emperor is more powerful with the Force and that usually is the more important factor.
(It's also a good illustration of more powerful Force effects != more powerful at getting your ultimate objectives. Honestly I don't like that Yoda and the Emperor bothered with lightsabers at all. I feel like once you're at a certain point you can win without them.)
>>43771311
>In his essay, Barthes argues against the method of reading and criticism that relies on aspects of the author's identity—their political views, historical context, religion, ethnicity, psychology, or other biographical or personal attributes—to distill meaning from the author's work. In this type of criticism, the experiences and biases of the author serve as a definitive "explanation" of the text. For Barthes, this method of reading may be apparently tidy and convenient but is actually sloppy and flawed: "To give a text an Author" and assign a single, corresponding interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text".
>>43771271
George's comments on his films remain canon. They were always canon.
And you have some poor reading comprehension (of course, the guy you replied to misspelled a word too, so that doesn't help).
Only the things George was directly involved in remained canon. That's the six movies plus The Clone Wars CGI series and movie.
Disney considers all of that as canon, AND they are putting out books and comics and a cartoon and new movies that are also considered canon.
>>43771323
I took it as more "you're under arr- HOLY SHIT WHAT GOTTA WINNNNN... okay, where was I, right, arr- actually, no, that's retarded, it'd never wor- OH SHIT MY ARM FUCKING HELL SKYWALKER."
>>43771331
>George's comments on his films remain canon.
Citation needed. Because the official word never included "oh and whatever stupid shit Lucas has said about Star Wars."
>>43771323
I always figured it was more a case of ''Wait, hes that powerful? I dont think we can hold the cunt!''
But also, what court would convict a dude that powerful and capable of using mind altering mind magic?
>>43771359
A court on the other side of the planet which receives a broadcast.
>>43771359
Which would be a good time to show Palpatine using mind altering mind magic, not lightning. Maybe Anakin shows up with another Jedi, and Palpatine mindfucks that Jedi into attacking Windu. Windu easily dispatches him, but realizes Palpatine is a greater threat than he can handle.
Tossing lightning, although it's an iconic Star Wars evil thing, just doesn't work here. Fuck, Dooku could throw lightning, too. It's not that special.
>>43771364
Vader can strangle the fucking life out of a guy over Skype.
>>43771364
>being on the same planet
>>43771364
>other side of the planet
TCW showed Palpatine choking Dooku out through a hologram from Coruscant while Dooku was in his Outer Rim stronghold. Vader choked Motti out through a hologram as well, in ESB.
Just being on the other side of the planet won't do shit.
>>43771364
Thats a possibility alright. Then again, aren't Sith meant to be masterful infiltrators and such? Whose to say he wouldn't have an apprentice on the panel of judges?
>>43771382
>>43771384
You don't need to broadcast the other participants to Shiv.
>>43771374
Yeah, thats true. Then again, its one of those things that might be too easy for audience to misconstrue unless yer really obvious about it.
Its not like RotS was written for the hardcore fans anyway
>>43771398
He didn't have a broadcast when he did that sith magic to Yoda in TCW either, just straight-up reaching out through the Force with Dooku. And he only needed Dooku's connection at the time because Yoda was even further away than expected, out in the Unknown Regions.
>>43770528
>Maul
>Obi wan was said to be knight level by then also Maul won in duel and was killed because of his pride and fact he didn't except Kenobi to do suck stupid move.
>Dooku
>killed by The Plot Armored One
>also Anakin was slipping to DS by then
>>43771357
It's up to you to prove they're not. Why would George's comments on the canon he created be rendered irrelevant? Disney only decanonized the books, games, and comics, not the movies.
>>43770108
the easy path is seldom the right path
>>43771441
>it's up to you to prove a negative
That's not how burden of proof works, friend.
>>43771460
>It's not canon
>Okay, why is it not canon?
>IT JUST ISN'T CANON
Fuck off, retard.
>>43771091
Was he? Re-watch the scene. When the cyborg-ificiation is done, look for the covert smirk behind Vader's back.
And remember that while for the viewer, the Emperor tries replace Vader with Luke immediately, in the universe it was twenty years later. It makes sense and actually is the standard Rule of Two rule.
The Master creates an apprentice because he can be used as a tool to further his power. He then has to keep that apprentice under his control (or replace him with a more powerful apprentice), while the apprentice plots to replace his master.
The Master wants a powerful minion. So he trains the apprentice, or tries to replace him, or sacrifices him to accomplish some goal. The Apprentice wants to be the master, so he works diligently to learn everything he can (the Master's the only source of Sith lore) and then either arranges the master's death or kills him himself. When Master and Apprentice fight, the result is always a new Master at least as powerful as the old one, regardless of who wins.
Whatever happens, the Sith grow stronger. The power of the Rule of Two is that 1) it really works at increasing the overall power of the Sith, and 2) it's to some extent self-enforcing. Most Sith in the EU have tried to break the Rule in different ways, but none have succeeded.
The Emperor loses Maul in the course of his plot, sacrifices Tyrannus to corrupt the REAL apprentice he wants, then tries to sacrifice Darth Vader to corrupt Luke. Vader like all apprentices wants to supplant his master, but is never powerful enough. He might have been willing to die so his son can live (as his replacement), or work with Luke to replace the Emperor together, but the Emperor never gives him the opportunity. So instead, he sacrifices himself to eliminate the Emperor.
That sacrifice might have ruined the Rule of Two... but since we have a sequel trilogy clearly it didn't.
>>43771460
>Lucas' movies are canon
This is fact.
>his explanations of what goes on in said movies isn't canon because it's somehow separated from the movies
This is you.
>>43771431
>plot armor
It's plot armor when Anakin beats Dooku, but not when Dooku beat Anakin, Kenobi, and Yoda? Yeah, okay.
>Obi wan was said to be knight level by then
According to whom? The opening title crawl says they're both knights, but the rest of the movie makes it clear that isn't the case.
>>43770108
Luke beat Vader. Even without the bullshit, he knocked him around like an Irish child.
>>43771482
>It's canon
>Is it?
>IT'S UP TO YOU TO PROVE IT ISN'T
>FUCK OFF RETARD
Jesus. I'm just asking people to verify what they're saying is actually true. If you can't do that, maybe you shouldn't say things.
>>43771517
As an Irish person I find this both insulting and hillarious
>>43771328
Anything short of "make up whatever shit you want" is imposing a limit on the text. What the hell is wrong with limits? Another word for "limits on interpretation of text" is intellectual rigor.
Barthes's argument is that we could scrap tenure, scrap the university, scrap the position of critic itself, and just sit in trees flinging poo at one another. Of course, if you've been in a faculty senate meeting lately, that's not too far off.
>>43771525
>The movies are canon but the commnetary is not canon
>Why?
>NOT MY JOB
No seriously retard, fuck off. Is your handler around so we can keep you from pissing in the thread?
>>43771188
When Sith have killed planets, solo, TFU still comes off as the kiddie pool.
>>43771510
>the movies are canon
This is a fact.
>outside sources from the movie, like what lucas has had to say about them, may or may not be canon
This is also fact. If you can show me where Disney says "any Lucas interviews/director's commentaries also count as canon" then I'll agree with what you have to say. Until then, you've really only got the movies themselves to go on.
>>43771460
The burden of proof is on you to prove its not.
Especially since JJ and KK showed they're taking George's idea for the Prophecy as canon, hence why the bad guys aren't Sith - they're dead and gone.
Now, I ask you again - why are you so adamant that his commentary - which was always considered canon before -on the films and The Clone Wars -which are still canon - are now somehow irrelevant and non-canon simply because he no longer owns the companies that made all of that?
They stated what they decanonized - and it was everything that George wasn't directly involved in.
So yes, burden of proof that his commentary is not canon any more is absolutely on you.
>>43771535
I wasn't stating my position, I was citing an explanation of the concept.
>>43771558
>The burden of proof is on you to prove it's not.
Except that's not how burden of proof works.
It's up to you to show Disney has said, in some capacity, that the commentaries and interviews also count. I can't show that Disney never said a thing other than to ask for people who believe otherwise to show me where I'm wrong.
Can you show me where Disney said that interviews and commentary are canon?
>>43771550
This is arguing semantics at an absolutely pathetic level. You're so focused on demanding that your canon be the correct canon, you're pretending that somehow a distinction not including every single part of a movie's supplementary materials as part of it's official statement somehow makes those supplementary materials irrelevant. It doesn't. Again, fuck off, retard.
>>43771584
If you can't prove what you're saying is correct, maybe don't say it.
>>43771592
Alright, we're done. You're clearly either just a fucking retard or doing this on purpose.
>Anyway so discussion can happen again
So is the Rule of Two the Sith go-to for their entire system or was it just adopted specifically to curb them getting purged by the Jedi?
>>43770912
>>43770967
OK back to the argument at hand. I think either interpretation is perfectly reasonable. The Dark Side *does* take a terrible toll on the mind, body, spirit, and destiny of its adherents. That's canon.
And Palpatine's scars were a perfect way to "prove" that an attempted Jedi coup was under way. It's a bloody shirt he can wave against anyone trying to oppose him.
There's no better way to be a bully and a tyrant than to do it while pretending the whole time that you're just an oppressed victim. This is a very old trick in history.
So was he scarred all along, and just dropped the facade? Or was scarring himself via his own lightning just the price he had to pay for ultimate power? Or was Mace Windu a badass and the scars just a mark of how close the battle really was? IMO only the Emperor knows for sure. An outsider viewer only knows that the Emperor's plan worked out more or less exactly as intended in the end.
>>43771601
>can't argue
>can't prove what he says
>calls others retards when he loses an argument
Why would anyone want to discuss anything with you?
>>43771558
Look man, he's trolling or retarded and stubborn. In both cases it's pointless to discuss this shit, in the former it's even counter-productive since it's exactly what he wants. Not saying he's a successful troll or that you're upset or anything, just that he's probably one of those shitty trolls who thinks any kind of reply means he's trolled someone.
Who the fuck cares about canon in the prequals? They're a mess of illogic and contradiction meant to sell cheap toys to children and expensive toys to manchildren.
The best source of information about the force is from Yda's teachings in ep 5 and the Emporer's actions in ep 6 because those are the bits that are actually fun and interesting.
>Bu-but that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Yeah, it is. My opinions beat the everloving fuck out of Lucas', he never understood what he created. Fuck canon.
>>43771563
Ahh, ok. But my response was still worth saying. Death of author and director as auteur are both poisonous concepts that were nakedly self-serving for lit-crit academics looking for shit to write about.
>>43771236
>Lucas may have intended something different, but the movie clearly shows Palpatine getting fucked in the face by lightning. Considering Lucas is no longer a part of Star Wars, and considering how much he fucked up Star Wars with the prequels, you're better off letting the movies stand on their own than listening to what he has to say.
"I don't like how he handled the prequels in general, so I'm going to ignore that he flat-out stated that my interpretation of a scene in the prequels was incorrect."
The scene with the lightning could be a mask being broken or his face melting. Except it was the mask being broken.
Accept it, move on.
>>43771628
>My opinions beat the everloving fuck out of Lucas'
Isn't that also your opinion?
I mean, I'd by and large agree that the original trilogy was better than the prequels, but throwing out all the explanations the prequels give is a bit much imo.
>>43771619
Palpatine was a manipulator. He knew how to use those lightning scars to gain sympathy.
The whole "master manipulator" thing is a bit much. Calling puppetmaster on every event in the prequels is just silly. It's clear that some of the events were out of his control, or didn't turn out the way he wanted to (like the who Naboo thing), but the guy knows how to turn lemons into lemonade (like he still kind of got what he wanted out of Naboo).
>>43771636
We should trust Lucas on whatever he says about behind-the-scenes stuff, like how he said episodes 1 to 3 were written all along and certainly not rushed rough drafts that got filmed without any question.
>>43771601
It was their go to for a long time because it is more in keeping with Sith doctrine of acquiring force at all costs.
However, it wasn't really how it seems. Palpatine had multiple apprentices, as did Vader. The Rule of 2 refered more to 1 Sith holding power while another lusted for it than their always just being 2 people.
Basically, 1 was the mountain to climb while others were the climbers. Once someone conquered the mountain, they were at least as high if not higher. They then became the mountain for others to climb. Thus the quest for power continued infinitely.
In theory, a long enough unbroken chain should produce like the ultimate sith ever. I dont think they ever got that long though.
>>43771636
So then Greedo shot first because Lucas says that's how it happens.
Okay.
>>43771651
>Isn't that also your opinion?
Yes, that's the idea. Lucas isn't god, he's just a hack the lucked his way into owning a valuable intellectual property. We can interpret Star Wars however we want. I can't think of anything worth saving from the prequals, therefore they don't exist.
>>43771180
>The Emperor was more powerful than anybody
no
>except maybe Yoda
still no
>>43771694
Yup. Makes Han a different character in ways but thats canon. Anything else is an AU or a headcanon at best
>>43771680
In-universe canon and the filming process are two separate subjects.
>>43771718
>In-universe canon and the filming process are two separate subjects.
Nope. Lucas's word is gold. Greedo shot first.
>>43771497
>Vader like all apprentices wants to supplant his master, but is never powerful enough
The only thing that sheev might be superior in is sith sorcery/alchemy. Vader is superioir in every other aspect
>>43771634
Totally... when it isn't kept on a tight leash.
Death of the Author has produced some really interesting interpretations, freed as it is from some of the facts, but of course it's never justified in and of itself - and when people actually start claiming their pet theories have primacy over the actual author's statements... that's toxic, yeah.
>>43771697
Well, you have fun with that then.
>>43771398
That sounds like a really shitty justice system. Why bother broadcasting Sheev to the court in the first place when you're just going to make it functionally indistinguishable from trying him in absentia?
Then again, this is a government where a substitute Senator has the authority to draft and propose sweeping legislation.
>>43770108
Taking the easy road has always been more beneficial. It's why evil exists and why democracy cannot work.
>>43771236
>the movie clearly shows Palpatine getting fucked in the face by lightning.
No it doesn't. It shows him changing while throwing lightning around. An entirely different thing.
>>43771755
>toxic
You sound stupid when you use this word like this.
>>43771732
Whether Greedo shot first or not is about in-universe canon and potentially retconning (I don't recall the scene well enough to say what happened), not about the filming process.
>>43771769
True, may as well just not show Sheev at all, and just read his statements out loud.
>>43771773
>It shows him changing while throwing lightning around.
It shows his face changing while lightning is hitting him in the face.
>>43771655
Well, that's certainly how Lucas described it. But when you have immense political power, a network of spies, informants, and agents provocateur, and magical abilities to see the future and influence events... then I don't see how "bwah ha ha all according to plan" isn't a perfectly valid option.
I'm fine w/ the Emperor as an over-the-top master manipulating puppet master. But yeah no doubt he does sometimes make mistakes that force him to improvise.
Idk, the jedi treat the force as a whole as a corrupting agent. They're so restrained in their use it reminds me of warlocks dealing with demons.
>>43771868
>the jedi treat the force as a whole as a corrupting agent
No, you're thinking of Chris Avellone.
>>43771868
They're following the ancient teachings of MasterKreia.
>>43771290
The dark side takes it toll on the user's body. After a while, it becomes the only thing keeping you alive, or even holding you together, or keeping you corporeal in some cases. You let go of the dark side after that, and there's nothing keeping you alive or together after that point.
>>43770939
I like this. DS is more powerful at doing flashy stuff, boosting your stats more, blowing shit up. LS doesn't loook like much but with it you get what you want in the end.
>>43771868
Its not the force is the issue. Its giving in to temptation. The force isn't a corrupting agent, taking the easy route or letting your emotions rule you is.
Jedi are quite happy to exploit and use the force as much as possible, so long as they don't become corrupted in their use of it. Ergo they use it sparingly because its an easy way out. Complacency can be dangerous and laziness leads to temptation
>>43771921
It's an interesting view of the force, though, isn't it? And to some extent true. Kind of like some versions of Christian demonology: the idea is that there's a source of power that comes from something fundamentally good but that is extremely dangerous to use because it leads so easily to evil.
So yeah you're right, it's that the Force is dangerous in the hands of someone already corruptible-- as most people are-- rather than the force itself. But I can easily see someone viewing the Force itself as corrupting.
>>43771868
I've shared that opinion with the board before. It usually results in citing the retarded ideas Lucas revealed in interviews to refute the idea.
I'm just saying it's probably how I would treat it in a game because I like the idea better, not that it's 100% canon.
>>43772015
OK so finally a derail that's worth something to talk about.
Let's take Han Solo. Good guy, right? But you'd be nuts to train him as a Jedi (even if he'd been a force sensitive) because he'd fall to the Dark Side in an instant.
This is an old theme in stories about magic. That Power is so tempting and corrupting that many good people are better off never learning it in the first place lest they turn evil.
Hell, even Tolkien talks about this. Gandalf at one point is talking about the other Rings of Power, the ones made by the elves and even the lesser ones not corrupted by or under the control of the One Ring. He says that even those are morally perilous in the hands of mortals, although their powers are very minor.
>>43772002
the force is love. lucas's experience with women is where his treatment of it comes from.
It has nothing to do with any deep meaning.
it's just a toy brand, ffs.
>>43772068
>Let's take Han Solo. Good guy, right?
Only because the movie tells us he is. Murder is usually a bad guy thing.
>>43770411
You don't even deserve dubs. When talking about something you are biased. So no, its not objectively shit. Nice bait bud.
>>43772085
>Murder
>Implying Greedo dindu nuffin
>>43772002
Yeah, true enough. It actually makes me want to build a Grey Jedi style Warlock now.
Would they be sub-optimal? Certainly. Would they be cool? Potentially.
>>43772105
Han was not an imperial officer nor a martial of tatooine. It doesn't matter what greedo did, it's murder. The same goes for everyone we see him kill in the trilogy.
The movies have a set morality. Good Guys vs Badguys. ANY attempt at introspection is prevented by that fact.
It's a story for children. Their morals are absolute.
>>43772118
sounds like a boring guy who just angsts all the time.
>>43770108
Every single one of them except maybe Doku was beaten by a Jedi in a one on one fight. Ratzinger only had Deus ex Machina save him from the fight against Yoda and Mace Windoo..twice.
Vader was by Obi-Wan and later completely dominated by Luke an inexperienced Jedi and well, Darth Maul seperated the Jedi and his apprentice and got killed by the apprentice later one on one.
>>43772147
Would you call Qui-Gon Jinn angsty? Grey Jedi doesn't mean angst automatically, even if that is what many fanfic writers go to.
>>43771512
Qui Gon says he's ready to become a knight. And he says it in private so it wasn't to convince council to let him take Anakin as padawan
>>43772177
No but i and most people would call qui-gonn the most forgettable and boring jedi in the entire franchise.
>>43772118
It's an interesting idea, but the trick is to ensure you're playing it in a system that handles the light side/dark side tension well. And I haven't seen any that do.
A good example of how this plays out on the tabletop is Vampire. At first, they're tragically-hip, angst ridden antiheroes. Then they're cursed with awesome. Then eventually they're sparkly superheroes.
A good system has to keep the risks and penalties for using the Dark Side both real and immediate in the character's mind. If you don't make it corrupting enough, or make redemption too easy, then it becomes a transactional source of superpower.
The prequel actually does handle this well. The normal hollywood trope is "he turned to the dark side for Love. He sacrificed his very soul to save her. How noble!"
But the better approach, they one they used (albeit clumsily) was "He turned to the Dark Side for love, but in doing so ruined and destroyed everything that he wanted to save including her." Remember Yoda warning Luke about the same thing in ESB? "If you go now to save your friends, help them you could, but you would destroy everything they've fought for."
That's the temptation of the Dark Side (and Gandalf and the Ring, for that matter). You want the power to do good, but through you the power will do evil. The Dark Side should tempt you with the power to accomplish your noble goals... but while the power is real it ultimately turns to spoil those goals in the end.
>>43772221
Well, he did only have 1 movie. And he was on a diplomatic mission for much of it so yeah, he was gonna be boring.
From what I hear, he was better in EU.
Either way, it ain't like I want to play the character like Qui-Gonn. Im thinking of making them more kinda Height of the Empire ''I get tea enemas daily'' British.
>>43772221
Not because he is a grey Jedi though, but because he has almost no character.
>>43772140
Tatooine was really, really Wild West shit. If Ford had been wearing a ten gallon hat with spurs on his boots and shot Greedo over a poker game you would have realized it.
There's no police presence and the recent events brought the military to their mudhole for the first time since the Old Republic fell.
People make their own law there.
>>43772221
>most forgettable and boring jedi in the entire franchise
Even more boring than Corran Horn?
>>43772265
Yeah, mechanically it'd be tough. And even if there is a system that would run it well... where I live, I'm lucky to find a DnD party.
I guess running it as more fluff and rp based than actual mechanical stuff would be necessary...
>>43770108
What exactly is your point OP.
Its been long established that the dark side indeed does offer greater raw immediate power than the light side, in exchange for a much higher rate of self-destruction (and often accelerated aging).
What exactly do you want to discuss here?
>>43772140
And the good rascal doing bad things to bad guys is a staple of narration
>>43772294
you might want to borrow ideas from Exalted's Great Curse actually, maybe mixed with elements of Abberrant's Taint.
>>43772341
I have no idea what those are. Are they set up to match up with 5e? I thought Exalted was 3.5?
>>43772362
>Exalted was 3.5
Exalted is a completely different system.
>>43772377
Fair enough. Never played the fucking thing so I have no idea.
So, do they mix well with 5e or am I gonna have to homebrew the shit out of them?
>>43770915
Just because there are only 2 sith doesn't mean they can't have a horde of Dark Jedi trying to prove their worth.
Remember Sith doesn't mean dark side, they were just a race that embraced the dark side fully and taught their ways to others.
Sith is to Dark jedi what Mandalorian is to Bounty Hunter
>>43772416
And its not even like there was only ever 2. It refers to Master + Apprentice. There could be other Sith out there too like, some motherfucker on the far opposite side of the galaxy and they wouldn't be able to prevent that, only battle them for supremacy and the right to be The Sith
>>43770157
OP here. Luke got his ass handed to him in Episode V. He literally had to give in to the dark side to overcome Vader in VI.
Obi Wan and Qui Gon couldn't bring down Maul together. Obi Wan and Anakin couldn't bring down Tyranus together.
>>43770508
>Consume you it will
Mace Dindu and Quinlan Voss seemed to be pretty ok. Maybe you can take quick dips into the Dark Side for extra power.
>>43770108
sith cannot cooperate as an option. They only take pupils or padawans to replace them in their age. The Sith are divided, weak, and naturally shouldn't exist, which is why their destruction brought balance to the force.
>>43772440
Thats the idea of a Grey Jedi in a nutshell.
I always assumed Yoda's statement was in reference to Anakin specifically. He could see Anakin wouldn't be able to just dip like some others so he warned Anakin it would consume him
>>43772415
Exalted is a different beast from the ground up than D&D. D&D is class based whereas Exalted is skill based. They use different dice mechanics as well.
>>43772474
So Id need to homebrew the shit out of it. Feck.
How easy of a transfer would DnD to Exalted be?
>>43770915
Wouldn't there have been many 'two's'?
>>43772440
Mace was master-level and had some crazy willpower, so he could probably be trusted to maintain his self-control. I don't know much about canon Vos but didn't Legends Vos fall to the Dark Side?
Either way, the Dark Side ended up killing everyone. I guess Yoda just wanted to make absolutely sure Luke stayed far away from it. Luke was their only shot at taking down Vader and Palps, and emphasizing that the Dark Side is super duper bad reduces the chance of Luke falling.
>>43772465
Grey Jedi are more neutral good to the orthodox jedi's lawful good. They're pretty much just regular jedi that aren't part of the order because they didn't like all the rules, but still follow the underlying jedi philosophy.
>>43771242
>I failed to understand the point of a game I played!
That is his weakness, anon. Duh. If he were Jedi, he would have joined the Living Force long ago. He would be infinite and eternal. Instead, he tries vainly to cling to life by enduring untold suffering. Every minute of his life is agony and suffering. He hasn't slept in years. He lives as a slave to another Sith who he knows is going to eat him..
>>43772492
That's pretty much how the Sith worked before Bane's purge.
>>43772492
Yeah, except that his core argument is wrong due to precognition. Ambush/trickery is an element of Force power because you need to cloud your master's mind enough to pull it off. Trolling for apprentices with incredible force potential is similarly something you need to do via Force visions and precognition.
Yeah if the Force was mostly about dueling ability and magic tricks then the Rule of Two would be idiotic, but it actually makes sense given the nature of the Force.
>>43772499
I thought ''Grey Jedi'' was ''Ill use Dark Side to further good'' or even ''there is no dark or light, just the force''? I mean, most left and they would still follow the ideas of the Order but I thought the view of the force was the important part?
I mean, their name largely implies it. Between light and dark; Grey.
>>43771170
The wise man only bets when he is sure to win.
>>43771091
It's a Win-Win. If Vader was destined to become the most powerful force user ever, that's nulified as Vader will then have to use some of his own power to sustain himself. So no chance of ever over powering Sheev. But the opportunity to train something that powerful was still there.
>>43772513
Basically. The Force is very heavily inspired by Buddhist ideals
If you live a proper enlightened life full of patience, compassion, and detachment from desire, you get to be an immortal ghost in touch with all living things free from suffering who can guide and teach the next generation.
If you're an asshole, you end up suffering until it undoes you.
>>43772554
No, that's a different thing. The Potentate Heresy or something
Grey Jedi are explicitly just rebel Jedi who don't follow the order's rules but still believe in the Light Side as the natural order of things (which it canonically is - technically, there is no Light Side of the force. There's just the Force, and then the Dark Side which is a corruption of that living Force.)
Fucking QUI-GON was a Grey Jedi, and he's basically Jesus.
>>43772591
Oh. Well okay then, I had the wrong read on things entirely.
Okay, a grey jedi warlock might be kinda boring then. Itd probably suit a Pally better anyway...
>>43772315
Who pissed in your midichlorians this morning?
Yoda says to Luke that the Dark side is not stronger. I disagree. Yoda is around 900 years old and with much experience and training was the only Jedi who could fight Sheev to a stand still. How old was Palpatine?
>>43770939
Basically
It's a Buddhist/Taoist thing
Life (or the Force, which is Life) is a river
If you go with the flow, it'll get you where you want eventually.
If you kick against it you might be able to get somewhere the river wasn't going to take you, but you're going to wear yourself out and get pulled into the undertow eventually.
>>43772315
Thread is over 250 posts and you think there is nothing to be discussed?
