Fuck is it just me or is creating a campaign seriously the most confusing shit ever. I can do world building just fine, there are no rules or limitations on what I can do. But whenever I go to make a campaign it feels like I'm missing something or I'm doing something incorrectly and my players will pick up on it.
Let's start with outlining, how do you guys start with outlining? Plain piece of paper and do a bubble chart of different possible outcomes that kind of follow a loose plot? Or do you just wing everything in your campaign and get really good at improvising on the spot?
>>48005172
Okay, right. Don't bother doing a flow chart for your plot or anything. You'll spend hours and hours doing that, and your players will either miss it and come up with the ONE thing you didn't think of, or just go down a fairly predictable route.
The best way to do it is to come up with an idea for the adventure you'd like to have your players go on. Do a list of bullet points for the main encounters/highlights in the adventure. Then create characters that can act as catalysts to that adventure, be they NPCs/villians etc. Then sprinkle those motherfuckers over your list of bullet points in the appropriate place.
What you then have is a story, the events of which are dictacted by character interactions. So in essence "my players can do XYZ when they meet this guy, who will introduce them to this woman who will give them this quest" and so on. Make sense?
tl;dr - don't do a flow chart. create a story you want to have your players star in, and then come up with the supporting cast and have them be your tools for getting the players to join the story.
Also yes, you will need to become VERY good at improvising stuff on the fly. Have a couple of characters/short quests in your back pocket ready to go at a moments notice.
>>48005209
What about pre planning encounters? I ran a campaign before and it just seemed like I was trying to spoonfeed them plot points to get into a certain pivotal interaction or combat and they just end up fucking turning on their heels and running making all the work I put into that encounter worthless. Should I even bother designing monsters or should I just rip out of the Monster Manual.
>>48005219
>Should I even bother designing monsters or should I just rip out of the Monster Manual.Yes.
Seriously tho, depends on the group. My group is apparently fine with fighting groups of monsters that have like a single special ability (if that) and the basic strategy of "move close->attack", + maybe a caster (but they bitch about the caster being unfair). Hence, I have stopped trying to make anything unique. Just grab the MM, maybe some adventures (PotA has nice elemental themed enemies) and pick and choose. Also, give like +1-2 to the attack of enemies en-bloc because in my experience ACs get ridiculous anyway.
>>48005219
For the big stuff, like really important battles, then yes go all out. But as I said in the previous post have a couple of things in your back pocket ready to go. So have a few simple monsters/encounters ready to go. Maybe just the stats for some basic and mid level encounters written down and kept with you so you can bust them out as and when needed.
When I run campaigns, I have encounters that I make happen. Whether that be by guiding the players to it, or dynamically adjusting player interactions to make sure they reach that encounter; my players reach it. Other times, there is stuff that is entirely optional and doing so won't detract too much from the overall experience. They may just miss out on some extra details regarding the world/plot, and potentially some xp and loot as well.
>>48005276
>Also, give like +1-2 to the attack of enemies en-bloc because in my experience ACs get ridiculous anyway
After level 5/6 I'd say this is a good shout.Obviously depending on your system and player experience.
>>48005288
I see, so instead of creating like a linear story that has a beginning and an end I should spend more time on NPC's and vague plot points and have the NPC's guide them to those plot points dynamically?
>>48005302
Yes, that's what I do. I mean obviously you want your plot points to lead to a satisfying conclusion. But that conclusion will feel all the more satisfying your group if they have had a direct input into that ending. Be prepared for the story to change over the course of the campaign; it's a good thing.
Grab a PDF of Dungeon World and check out the DM guidelines it has. It's a rather extensive guide on building a campaign, and how to handle things.
>>48005302
Well, yes.
Alternatively: fuck plot points. Throw those out. Come up with a bad guy with a goal and have them work toward this goal and make shit up as the players act. Build the world as they get to it instead of ahead of time. Ramp your improv up to 11 and run the campaign by the edge of your seat, the same way the players are playing. Do as little prep work as possible and only in reaction to your players doing things, how NPCs and the bad guy are gonna react to it. Come up with flexible setpieces and sprinkle those in where they fit.
>>48005344
>flexible setpieces
That's a very succint way of describing what I've been talking about in this thread, thanks anon.
Although I would have to say that if you don't feel prepared to go in on the edge of your seat, do a bit of planning. Obviously the less time you spend looking down at your notepad/laptop/DMG, and the more time you spend lookin up and engaging with your players the better. But know your limitations and strengths, and plan accordingly.
>>48005344
Very well put, I feel like this is the way the game is meant to be played but I think I'm just too new to DM'ing to pull this off without it looking half assed and turning out boring. What would you do about starting them out? Drop them in the world with the bad guy doing some shit and have them stop it? What about quests, side routes, how would having a main overarching villain fit into those situations?
Make a relation map. Put every major character, location, and object on there and plot out what everyone wants. Just a couple of words for each.
Stat out the characters and build up setpieces if you intend to use those. You don't have to specifically say that event A happens at location Z: make it loose enough that you can move it for players to see - or miss.
After the session, add any new characters you've introduced, think if they have any relation with anything else, and update existing relations for the time that's passed.
And there. Now you have a grip on what's going on in the world, so you can react to players' actions in a believable way, and you don't actually need to plan that much in advance.
This might be obvious but I will add: dont go to great lengths fleshing out a faerun sized world right off the bat. Start small: you can have a single medium sized town and surrounding environs with plentyy of npcs and encounters to take them into level five or ten easily, depending on yyour parties playstyle. It'll be easier on yyou to havena small number of fleshed out npcs and factions rather than having to either spend weeks writing out a great big list, or coming up with shit on the fly.
In myy opinion, smaller but detailed will always beat out seeming vast but generic and vague.
Its more how I'vd gm'd dark heresy in the past, but I basicallyy come up with some important factions and npcs, and a myysteryy or two to get the npcs moving in a direction, and sort of let them go. The important thing is to have a good idea of what your npcs, both ally or enemy, main goals and needs are, so then instead of your plot being totally derailed because the pcs blindsided you, you just think of the events from the pov of the factions and adjust shit accordingly.
>>48005441
Quests and stuff will arise organically if you have NPCs with goals and PCs with good ideals/bonds/flaws.
One way to start out is to just put the first step of the villain's plan into action. The party doesn't necessarily have to try to stop him or even know he exists yet, but they can start off by dealing with the fallout from whatever his first step is. Then, they can find out about him by tracking the problems to their source.
>>48005298
at level 1 a character in my group had 18 AC. Adding a +1-2 to hit is a necessary element for him to feel any tension at all
>>48005466
I may sound like a retard but what's a setpiece?
>>48005343
This is actually good advice, no matter what you think of the PBtA games. They have great GM chapters that are applicable to pretty much any game.
The most relevant to this thread is how you organize the villain's plan. Basically, you figure out what his end goal is, then come up with several steps on the road to that goal. Each of those steps has to be something the players will notice. Then, whenever you are stuck on what to do next, just have the next step happen.
You'll have to reevaluate your steps whenever the players do something that interferes with them, but it's still a very efficient and low-prep way to plan a campaign.
>>48005674
I'm the retard here. Setpiece is not quite the correct word.
I meant a location and related events, basically. Like you want a rickety rope bridge to cross in a chase scene, or an altar chamber for a major ritual, stuff like that.
Note that you don't necessarily design the chase and the ritual themselves here: maybe the party's running away, or whoever they're chasing collapses the bridge in front of them; maybe they're able to perform the ritual safely, or have to protect it, or wanted to prevent it, but were too late. Be flexible and don't get too hung up on specific events happening in specific places at specific times.
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Maybe I'm lacking in original thought but I am pretty much completely unable to concieve of anything creative when I start with nothing. I gotta have an angle, a core concept or idea to start of with.
To get at that angle I look at other stories that I enjoyed and ask myself what is I enjoy about them. When I've found the things I enjoy, I take those things, change them up a little while still keeping with the core principle of that it is I like and put them in my campaigns. I create PCs like this as well.
>>48005219
Make sure there's a variety of different leads and plot hooks to the next thing you have planned. They won't get notice all of them, they won't follow up on all of the ones the notice--but they only need to be invested in one for that progress to happen.
Take some improv. My campaign I'm running is made completely on the spot, all answers givin in a timely manner. I leave almost no holes but I give the players stuff to work with, I have an interesting hook, side things to keep track of, and since I do a bit of comedic improv, there's a bit of funny shenanigans to be had. It also hurts less when they kill my beloved NPCs, since I barely knew 'em.
Basically do what a lot of people were saying. Expand on some core concepts but don't do to much. You're party is the wild card so they'll miss or burn what you want them to investigate. You want the barebones but enough to say "this is their quest, this is how they achieve it." I do that and then improv their side adventures.
>>48005343
This is probably the best reason bother finding a copy of DW. Don't take it too literally, though.
I prefer to start with a worst-case scenario. It's the "If the players do nothing" outcome. This is frequently the core idea of a campaign that I personally find interesting. I try to figure out who the stakeholders in the scenario are. The evil cultists, the benevolent king whose hands are tied by an ancient treaty, the goblin tribe that was promised the head of the king if they do the cultists' bidding, the farmer with the highly-kidnappable virgin daughter, etc. I figure out a few locations in very general terms that are related to all of this (the cult's main temple, the king's castle, the goblin encampment, the farmstead).
Once I know who and where the stakeholders are, and how they relate to each other, I pick a place and situation to start the player characters in. I try to have at least two adventure hooks available and prepared-to-play at any given time. When the players pursue a given hook, I reassess where the stakeholders are at, and generate another hook so that the players still have some obvious options available to them. Sometimes I have to set aside a location or adventure because it changes significantly.
Trying to script out an entire campaign from start to finish (like in the published adventure paths) takes way too much investment up-front to product content the players may or may not actually get to.
I also like to brew up a few "random encounters" that are appropriate to the foreseeable circumstances. I make sure not to explicitly scale these to the party, which results in scary situations they have to talk their way out of early on and absolute squashfests after they've got a few levels under their belts.
>>48008522
I find that my players tend to go after whatever plot hook I've presented to them. Two or three obvious courses of action is generally enough to help them feel like they aren't getting railroaded. Generally.
So, I've got a question, more GM general than 5e specifically, but I don't see a general thread, and I'm running 5e anyway, so here goes.
How do I get new players to get more involved with the world? We're one extended session in, and two out of three players are still in the quest, dungeon, loot mentality and get stuck on anything more complex than "I ask X" and "I use item/ability X on Y", even after I suggest more descriptive alternatives. The last one (who has some experience), on the other hand, has already given me a major goal and a hook I can start a whole campaign from.
Of course, there's always inspiration and XP bonuses, but I would prefer it to be less mechanical.
>>48013531
Have some events that don't involve the players directly, but still add to the sense of a living world. Things like festivals are a good use of this.
i create a backstory and a place and characters and monsters. i give all of the characters motivations and personalities and then let things happen.
it's like setting up dominos really.
Another question: how would I go about fleshing out the stats of a npc? Should I just create it as a normal character using a character sheet? Or is there another way to do it that doesn't take as long?
>>48015012
There's no reason to go into that much detail, a few key details is all you need.
>>48015946
Well if it's a main enemy character, for example.
>>48016079
Those you want more detail in sure, but you only need to stat out things that would be pertinent to their interaction with your players.
>>48005172
Here's my process.
>Make up a bunch of interesting factions for the players to interact with.
>Make up some interesting characters, and the leaders of the factions.
>Think about how the factions feel about eachother, and what they are attempting.
>Come up with a rough outline of what happens if the PCs stay out of it all.
>Map out faction territories (and where they overlap) on my campaign map.
>Come up with a bunch of different short-form stock NPCs for each faction.
>Come up with some likely party rosters of NPC Groups.
>Make some random tables to determine what the PCs run into, and what they're doing.
>Come up with plot hooks for the various NPC plans.
Improv the session using the above game-aids, based on what the PCs do.
>>48018301
A couple times I have also written up a rough random NPC generator based on the above, on my computer, that just spits out NPCs for me to use, with some toggles and sliders as input.
Sadly my computer crashed recently and I no longer have the couple that I made.
>>48018301
What do you mean short form stock npc?
>>48018888
I mean I don't build my NPCs as characters, I just give them numbers.
In D&D, they would have their basic stats, any saves, HP, AC, etc.
The bare minimums.
Instead of giving them skills I just put down what the number is in their trained skills, and decide on the fly what skills would make sense for the NPC.
And then I might cherry pick a couple of abilities and slap them on him.
I sort of half-ass the NPC to make sense for the given CR, rather than actually building it.
(Because odds are I'm going to make a lot of them and I want to be able to spit them out fast).
>>48005172
No bubble charts.
Think of a cool adventure or series of adventures that you think make for a fun game. Throw the players some hints as to why they'd be fun to follow. Give them real meaning and consequences for accepting or turning down a quest.
If this is your first campaign with a group, you don't even have to leap right into it. Put them in an adventure that just sets the tone and atmosphere of the world, and introduces NPCs and locations they want to know more about. Don't be afraid of them dictating how the sessions run; let them go wild, gauge what they value, and use that to your advantage when designing a meaningful plot they can pursue.
