What is the good the bad and the worst thing about FATE Core? bonus for Fate accelerated too
Also is it true that mostly all the thing happen out of character?
>>47765730
In the same way most mechanical resolutions in RPGs 'happen out of character'.
>>47765261
The good is that if you have players which normally don't do a good job of acting 'like their character would act' the game does a decent job of providing incentive to do whatever's in-character rather than whatever is most mechanically advantageous.
The bad is tracking an economy of points in order to use the things on your character sheet, and the element of system mastery introduced by 'self compels.' I know why they're in the game, to prevent the GM from having to remember exactly what everyone's flaws are in order to keep the game moving, but having everyone vying to gimp themselves in order to pick up bonuses is ultimately not great design.
The worst thing is how everyone pretends it's 'rules light' when it's actually as needlessly complicated as every other game, just in different ways
>>47765261
>Best
Universal mechanics
>Worst
Universal mechanics
>>47766897
>but having everyone vying to gimp themselves in order to pick up bonuses is ultimately not great design.
Why?
>>47767652
Because it rewards performing an action repetitively for a mechanical bonus in a game that's supposed to be about telling a story rather than trying to get the best outcome for your character every time
This has gotten to the point that I have a prewritten answer for these threads.
>Good
+ I like the bell curve that's created around zero. This means the average is always at the stat or whatever you're rolling, with there still being a fair bit of variance. If you wanted to, you could determine this variance by taking more or less dice.
+ Small numbers, quick thinking.
+ Situational Aspects is a pretty useful concept that, optimally, rewards lateral thinking. And it's easy to rip to other systems.
>Bad
- The math of Stresses doesn't work very well. It's a neat concept but doing 1-dmg hits vs doing 3-dmg hits is only one strike difference to pass through three stresses, and after that they are the same. There's barely a point in going past "good enough."
- With zero direction, it can definitely be hard to come up with good Aspects and Stunts. Difficulty in character creation, for my group, is a colossal turn-off that has created nasty arguments.
- Skill Pyramid UGH
- It's good at doing characters that are already pretty competent, and could be used for characters that aren't so competent, but progression is REALLY slow. In my opinion, it's too slow, and sure I could houserule it, but if I have to houserule it then it's a weakness of the system.
- ohhh Fate points. I like the idea, and you can argue all you like that intentionally hampering yourself is good roleplaying. And I don't disagree. But it feels shitty regardless. It can be somewhat mitigated by mainly having the GM do the negative invoking, so there is that.
~ Some people hate Blind Sniper scenarios that happen. I think it's fine, though, since it gets the entire group working together, creating a narrative together, and spending a metric fuckload of Fate Points.
[1/2]
>>47767787
[2/2]
>Worst
What can absolutely ruin a game is that you can very easily play it 'wrong.' What I mean is, if you try to play it the same way you play many other tactical-oriented systems like DnD, everything's gonna slog down and it's gonna suck. The system-given options that Fate offers aren't an arsenal of interesting 'moves' or 'abilities', lending to a playstyle. Instead, you get a bunch of narrative tools. What worked for me was to just have any conflict boil down to a single roll, and treat just about everything as 'mook rules,' where the player always either succeeds, or succeeds at a cost.
Good:
It's good at portraying heroic characters getting into trouble and then out of it, which is 80% of RPG play anyway.
Bad:
It's very bad at anything that isn't that, pretty much by design. Also requires all players to be on-board with the system instead of having a token retard that doesn't do anything other than "duhhh is it my turn?"
Worst:
People whining that it breaks their immersion because "it has metacurrency! I'm not in my character's head!"
Fucking hit points are metacurrency, they don't actually exist and aren't measurable in DnD. You've been using metacurrency forever. Get over it.
>>47767787
In addition to these, Fate Core and Accelerated have a few other breaking points.
Firstly, there is the sheer gameability of the "create an advantage" action, which lets you set yourself up for a "success with style" spiral and virtually never fail.
For a system that tries to encourage players to roleplay their characters' weaknesses and tackle challenges in an action-packed and pulpy fashion, the mechanics of the system strongly reward playing it safe and cautiously building up advantages in order to blow away scenes with thick stacks of free invocations, making compels virtually unnecessary.
Fate designer Ryan Macklin suggests splitting apart "create an advantage" into "create an advantage" and "discover," effectively creating a fifth action:
http://ryanmacklin.com/2014/10/fate-the-discover-action/
This goes a very long way towards reducing the "free invocation success with style spiral," and I would strongly, strongly recommend its usage in any Fate game.
Another issue I have found is that situation aspects, for the most part, simply do not matter *unless* the GM arduously interprets the teamwork rules in such a way that they become relevant (and that is not even an openly stated rule/interpretation in the book).
Think about it. You have to pay a fate point to invoke a situation aspect unless you have free invocations. With that in mind, why not just spend fate points to invoke your own five aspects? Surely, at least one of them will be relevant for any given roll. Likewise, if you want to compel yourself, surely you could bring to the fore one of your own character aspects.
Situation aspects based on the scenery have absolutely no purpose when character aspects exist, except to perhaps create a new source of "forced" compels from the GM, and for the GM to try to justify "this counts as a teamwork action from the situation aspect and thus effectively adds a +1 to whoever is currently taking an action/defending against it."
>>47768803
>
Think about it. You have to pay a fate point to invoke a situation aspect unless you have free invocations. With that in mind, why not just spend fate points to invoke your own five aspects?
Assuming you already know the situation aspect and don't need to discover it...
because you want to describe your action that way? Maybe sometimes you want to say "because It's Dark and Spooky" instead of saying "because I'm a Totally Rad Bro" for the twentieth time.
>>47768803
Thirdly, I do not see a reason to ever risk taking a compel by the second half of a session. Nobody wants to do so out of fear that it might be "wasted" when the session ends (and few in online games can tell when a session will end due to someone saying "Sorry, I am getting tired") due to the way refresh works.
Fourthly, the conflict system is a complete mess. Characters only really have two actions: "deal damage" and "gain a +2 bonus and try to convince the GM that the newly created aspect totally works as a teamwork action to provide a +1 bonus to relevant rolls." There is virtually no tactical depth to it at all from a mechanical perspective, and it suffers for it when trying to hype up "cinematic" combat as something exciting both in-universe and mechanically.
Fate truly needs much more polish.
>>47768825
There is no mechanical advantage to paying a fate point to invoke a situation aspect over doing the same with a character aspect, unless you take a sideways reading of the rules and try to convince your GM that this should count as a teamwork action (again, something that is not even suggested or remotely implied in the rulebooks).
>>47768836
There's no mechanical advantage, and there is also NO mechanical DISadvantage.
It's variety.
And also because there exists the possibility that your character really doesn't have an applicable character aspect.
so what is a good alternative to Fate?
>>47765261
>Best
I like how it takes character back story to a different level and makes it an integral part if the game. Fate is a lot of fun when you play with experienced roleplayed.
It also made spell casters fun for me, which is rare.
>Bad
It lacks the "gamey" elements you get from other systems. Item progression, meaningful level ups, etc are virtually nonexistent unless the GM puts a lot of effort into homebrew.
>Worst
The devs are the kinds of people who ban you from the forums for saying a wheelchair-bound submarine officer makes no sense
My players are already pretty focused on character motivations and storytelling, so I was excited to introduce the Fate core system to them.
I read through the Atomic Robo rulebook, threw together a loose story structure, got it all set up and all my people at a table, and then realized I didn't really know where to start. I mean, I worked through chargen: told them about aspects, modes, skills, and then the skill roll, but the concept of fate points eluded them for most of the game. It seemed as though they were too busy learning the mechanics and trying to wrap their head around the fate point economy to come up with any more aspects, and therefore didn't have enough points in the first place to get a good idea of how they flow around the table. What could I have done better? How to I help them penetrate the jargon?
>>47765261
>Good
Very easy and fun to homebrew, provided you understand the original conceits of the game, which are many.
>Bad
It's somehow got a reputation for being rules-lite, it's not.
It fails to do anything low-powered.
Like all universal systems, it can feel samey if you rely on the mechanics over storytelling too much.
>Accelerated
It's barely different to Core.
>>47768803
>>47768836
>why not just spend fate points to invoke your own five aspects?
Yeah I homebrewed that out. PC aspects are for rerolls and compels only.
>>47768854
>NO mechanical DISadvantage.
True, but players are lazy and it often appeals to selfish players to compel "I'm the best" aspect again. Of course the GM can put their foot down but if you're running Fate you're probably pretty permissive to begin with.
>>47770738
Risus, desu. It has Aspects with less cruft.
>>47771755
Your Bad is a Good for me.
>>47771903
Yeah teaching it can be hard.
>Compel them lots at first, remind them they can do it too
My best Fate sessions have always been when players are compelling each other like mad, throwing tons of material at the GM to work with.
>Throw situation aspects on the table, with free invokes on them even, have NPCs use them against the PCs
And be explicit about it. Tell them what the numbers are, when they roll say "you'll succeed if you spend a Fate point and can justify a +2 to me right now"
>>47771988
>Your Bad is a Good for me.
I only say it's "bad" in the sense if you're looking for something crunchier Fate isn't the go-to system.
Like, I can rule in a bunch of magic items and everything, but that takes thought effort I don't always feel like putting into a game. Savage Worlds solves that issue by having readily-available stats for anything I want to give/use against my players.
> it often appeals to selfish players to compel "I'm the best" aspect again
You really shouldn't allow Aspects like that to begin with. Anyone who thinks "I'm great at everything" is a valid Aspect doesn't really understand the point of Aspects.
>>47772070
>You really shouldn't allow Aspects like that to begin with
True.
Another thing I homebrewed to address that and the "everyone levels up at plot points at the GM's discretion" that I didn't like either: party levels up once every character has had all of their aspects compelled at least once. Encourages dual-sided aspects, compelling each other, and mechanical advancement follows story progression (which presumably results from all those compels). Perfect.
>>47772170
When I last ran a Fate game it was a space opera and I used a point system to level up players. Basically Paragon/Renegade points, with players getting some kind of advance every 50 cumulative points. Got the idea from a Renown system one of my GMs used in his fantasy game.
Of course, I had to tell my players at the very beginning they were not "Good Guy/Douchebag" points and they wouldn't be able to level up by firebombing orphanages.
>>47765261
>good
The settings are pretty nice, expecially the "shadows/fire" books.
>bad
People arguing about the concept of "metacurreny" in roleplaying games, see >>47768754 for example.
>worst
This a game where everyone has to be on the same page or you won't have fun.
>>47770738
DUNGEON WORLD. It's AWESOME.
>>47770738
Heroquest 2
Simmilar philosophy, but it is actually rules light, not just pretending. And with 90% less meta.
On the downside, it is vague as fuck and while the rules are few in number and volume, they are complicated in actual application, leaving much to interpretation. Until you'll get used to them at least.
>Worst
The fucking dice I hate proprietary dice. Just use a normal d6 system or something, it could have been just as quick and simple of a system with d6s.
>Bad
The combat system has no meat to it whatsoever, that more personal I like to have at the very least hit points and damage systems, and there stress system doesn't cut it for me.
> the Good
It's free so anyone can grab it and play it and on top of that it's quick, easy and rather simple so it's great to just pick up and play. I find it best for quick one off instead of extended campaigns. Going back to the worst for a second the positives are kinda hindered by it as even though it's free you have to buy special dice to streamline it and with out those special dice you get an annoying extra step when you roll of having to say" okay this is 1 thats a +, and this is 4 thats a minus and this is 5 thats a blank." which is not too tough but in a quick and easy system like fate it can be pretty annoying.
Also, don't forget Evil Hat is making a book for wheelchair users, and other disabled, to feel INCLUDED.
>>47772485
What the fuck I thought Heroquest was bronze age fantasy (Glorantha and all that) until I googled it just now.
>vague as fuck and while the rules are few in number and volume, they are complicated in actual application
I found Fate to be the same, really. Once I understood why certain rules were the way they were (i.e. the design decision and whatnot) it was way easier to adjust them to what I wanted.
The biggest mistake anyone can make is to play Fate RAW. It's a system that needs lots of tweaking to fit each game and each group.
>>47772518
>combat system
How did you find the social interaction system? What about the magic system?
>>47772528
I agree that's pretty silly or at least unrelated to my interests but it doesn't reflect on the game at all.
lets say if someone in my group says "well i want to cut that dude head of in one swing" how it would go?
>>47772528
But couldn't you just make 'in a wheelchair' one of your aspects? Isn't that the entire point of the system?
>>47772677
How would it go in any other system?
If it's possible pick a TN and let them roll. If it isn't offer an alternative. If it's not worth a roll say it happens and narrate the results.
If it's an interesting plot development and you want to encourage that sort of behaviour you could consider it a self-compel if the PC has a relevant Aspect and give them a Fate Point.
If you consider it better for the plot that that doesn't happen but still want to give the players some agency set a high TN so they have to spend some Fate Points to get it done.
I think I've put more genuineness into the answer than was in the question.
>>47772727
Evil Hat (Fate's devs) want to make certain groups to feel INCLUDED in tabletop, like trans, gays, lesbians and feminazi. The whole point of making this book (and shooting down some games at Drivehru RPG) is to show how INCLUSIVE they are.
>>47772677
You tell him he better roll high enough.
Fate is narrativist and has mechanics in place to help players influence the story in the ways they want. But it's not freeform role play and players can't just dictate what happens at all times.
>>47772803
>>47772834
lets say one of the players is a big guy with an axe and wants to show how strong he to intimidate his enemies, so he wants to cut one of his enemies head in one swing to do so, lets say he have cutting heads +2 or something like that
>>47772892
If that's actually one of his stunts, then he's got a bonus to damage if he's trying to cut off someone's head.
He still has to roll for it.
And tell me more about this intimidation character. Does he wear a mask of any sort?
As a player I noticed that this system suffers from the "I have a hammer and every problem is a nail" .
The mechanics incentivised that I try to solve every problem with my +5 skill. There is literally no reason to use a skill less than 3 unless the GM refuses you roll anything else.
>>47772944
he uses one, he only takes it off to intimidate people, but it is extremely painful
>>47772990
this so much
>i am strong
>i am fast
>i am intelligent
>>47773254
Is it painful for him or the people he intimidates?
If it's the former, then why? He sounds like quite the tough, sizable fellow.
>>47773321
answer above ^
>>47773271
This is why Fate needs players who are good writers. People don't always get the Aspects are character traits (and if you're really astute, flaws) first and stat boots second
>>47773490
I am tempted to run a FATE Core one shot just to see how it comes, but it is hard i just managed to make my players play 5e
>>47772441
Weren't you over in the "Rules-Light system" thread too? I have to be honest, this is some pretty stale trolling. Dungeon World's been out for years at this point, some people love it, others hate it, but even the fans aren't as rabid as what you're trying to parody.
You got a (You) out of me, I guess.
>>47774543
its good for a lawfull good group, my players hurt each other one way or another
>>47766897
>everyone vying to gimp themselves in order to pick up bonuses
I suddenly understand why the SJWs love this system so much
>>47767787
This is why I do away with stress completely in my games, just giving another minor consequence slot and heads off from there. Makes battles far more intense and risky.
At least its better than Dungeon World.
Many great ideas, obfuscated by too many fucking rules and a terrible structured rulebook.
Quoting the archive:
>It's a passable system with some great premade settings, but the Core version is very poorly organized and makes a lot of the shit that's supposed to be simplest way too complicated to use (you can count the number of Worlds of Adventure using "Current and Impending Issues" on one hand, and these are from the same company. Wouldn't have been nearly so bad if the book didn't feel the need to START with them, giving the impression they're so central to the design. This is something it does a lot). Fate Accelerated isn't so convoluted, but suffers from the problem where it's too simplistic to keep you interested but too complicated to flow fast. Wushu, Lady Blackbird and some of the simplest *World games do this better.
>I also don't like the fanbase pushing it everywhere like they're competing with the GURPS autists. This game is absolutely, most certainly not for everyone, and it's definitely not the best choice for everything. That they've got a similar habit of claiming that everyone who doesn't like it has either played it wrong or just "doesn't get it"/is too stupid/"needs to go back to wargames, munchkin" is irritating as hell, too.
>>47774706
>It's also advertised far too often as "perfect for introducing people to roleplaying games", but that's fucking wrong. It may not be as mechanically complex as D&D but playing it relies on understanding CONCEPTS which are vastly more so. Nerds who've been roleplaying for 20 years now always forget just how alien the very concept of it is to someone doing it the first time, and the advantage of a simulationist system is that since it only operates on in-game level it's perfectly possible to a run a game where only the GM knows the rules. You just let the players sit down and slowly digest that whole "it's kind of like pretend, but you sometimes roll dice" idea while you take care of all mechanical issues behind the stages. They just need to say what their character does.
>Go try playing Fate, even FAE, without everyone understanding Aspects and Approaches and Actions and whatshit (stuff that takes some time to get mentally used to even to players who are just new to Fate, almost regardless of what other roleplaying experiences they have, much less people who've never done it before). To newbies, this is both intimidating as fuck and makes LESS sense than simulationist game's universe centered mechanics.
>>47772070
>Anyone who thinks "I'm great at everything" is a valid Aspect doesn't really understand the point of Aspects.
I think it's amazing aspect to take as a flaw for narcissism.
I just want a simple mechanic that can evolve into something bigger
>>47774965
I haven't played it, but people speak very highly of the 'escalation' mechanic in Dogs in the Vineyard
![daleks[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/PqcZHEG.png "daleks[1].png")
>>47774965
Explain!
>>47775015
i dont know if it is a good example but most of OSR have little rules and you can do a lot of thing with them
mostly i would love a system with a central mechanic that makes obvious how the rest of the game plays and what rules to use
>>47775088
Like Risus?
>>47775133
can you destroy a whole city with a fireball in risus?
>>47775148
Yep.
>>47775195
nice answer, how?
>>47775333
Roll your chosen Cliché (probably something to do with magic or summoning big fireballs) higher than the Cliché of the city and... you know the rest. That ONLY IF you GM allows, and I think some will take it as an interesting challenge to the game.
>>47775354
DC 30
>>47775982
Huh?
>>47776084
difficulty 30
>>47776179
It's a contested roll.
Pretty much all the points said so far are spot on, so instead of making a whole list that just repeats half the thread I'm gonna add a few points:
+ it's probably the best "anime RPG" there is, even better than ones that try to specifically be that
+ FAE clears up a lot of the convoluted presentation of Core's rules, and allows you to keep excess Fate points between sessions, making refresh a minimum instead of a reset. This greatly improves play as players will be more willing to accept compels at any point in the session instead of just the end, though you MIGHT end up with a hoarder.
- FAE's approaches sound good on paper, but in practice it can be difficult to decide which approach you should be rolling in different situations, and players WILL jump through hoops to justify always using their single best approach all the time, even when it shouldn't make any sense.
- The books talk about how it's not a game about gaming the system, but that's almost entirely what the rules revolve around.
- the devs are fucking assholes. Not only have they decided to go full SJW, but despite claiming that you can do whatever you want with Fate (even publishing a fucking TOOLKIT to promote the idea) they spend an awful lot of time telling people their homebrews and houserules are badwrongfun and shitting on anyone who doesn't follow the Fate Toolkit and their precious "fractal" to the letter.
>>47777943
>This greatly improves play as players will be more willing to accept compels at any point in the session instead of just the end
I mean instead of just the beginning.
>>47777943
>allows you to keep excess Fate points between sessions, making refresh a minimum instead of a reset
This is no different from Fate Core. Fate Accelerated has changed nothing in this respect.
If you have refresh 3, it is currently the final stretch of the session, and you are sitting at 0 fate points, why would you ever accept a compel, let alone self-compel?
>FAE's approaches sound good on paper, but in practice it can be difficult to decide which approach you should be rolling in different situations, and players WILL jump through hoops to justify always using their single best approach all the time, even when it shouldn't make any sense.
This is absolutely, 100% true and has been my experience in every FAE game I have ever participated in. Even something that would be a simple Investigate/Notice roll becomes an argument between Careful and Clever, and the latter approach is so broadly-written that it could very well be applied to absolutely anything.
>>47778271
>This is no different from Fate Core. Fate Accelerated has changed nothing in this respect.
Yes it is, because in core you roll back if you have excess.
However you are correct in that having less than your refresh makes accepting compels less compelling (HA!).
However I think the idea was supposed to promote players making stunts out the ass instead of worrying about a high refresh, because if it never rolls back it doesn't matter if you only have 1 refresh as long as you can hoard your points.
At least that's my theory, there's really nothing in the rules themselves to support that idea.
>>47778330
>Yes it is, because in core you roll back if you have excess.
This is false. Page 7 of Fate Core states, "Refresh is the number of fate points you get at the start of every game session to spend for your character. Your total resets to this number unless you had more fate points at the end of the last session."
This still means that compels become far riskier to take the nearer the session is to a close.
>>47765261
Good:
Toolkit system: go ahead and play a STALKER setting with some crueler "dial"--as they call it--values.
The toolkit basis also means you can fix its problems with some guidance from other players easily, by modifying rules.
Not good:
Everyone needs to be aware of who they are playing; the Aspects aren't going to compel themselves.
You will have reduced fun unless you are, as the book describes, playing someone proactive. You are responsible for your Aspects.
>>47778538
... Man the guy who I GM'd Fate Core for me was retarded.
I've only ever ran accelerated. But I guess I'm just as bad for not having caught him on that.
I ran fate accelerated once, I didn't like it, it was too loose and pretend. Everything is up in the air, just do whatever you want. The players straight up told me that they disliked the aspects thing because it was a hassle to write them on cards.
On the upside I got over my urge to run freeform and now I crave a crunchy tactical game like Iron Kingdoms RPG.
>>47778271
>>47779610
You know the approaches are a good idea in theory but in practice are WAY too loose. And they wouldn't be so bad if they were much more clearly defined.
Like was said fucking Clever is so broad it can literally be used for everything, it's a fucking God-Stat. Meanwhile Forceful is so restricted it's hard to ever justify in anything but a physical situation. All you have to do to power game FAE is make a tier list from how broad to how restrictive every approach is then allocate your bonuses that way.
>>47779752
My favorite set of approaches is RPG class style JadePunk uses.
>>47779906
Oh? How does that work?
>>47778271
>If you have refresh 3, it is currently the final stretch of the session, and you are sitting at 0 fate points, why would you ever accept a compel, let alone self-compel?
Because it's interesting?
But then, I'm that kind of player.
>>47780149
That's the thing though, you basically have to be that kind of player in order for Fate to work at all.
Fate is not a game for everyone, and absolutely not a game for people who think so much about what is mechanically optimal.
This isn't nessecarily a good thing.
>>47780212
>Fate is not a game for everyone, and absolutely not a game for people who think so much about what is mechanically optimal.
Yep. And this is the reason why I actually like Fate over more mechanically deep games. I don't enjoy figuring out what is mechanically optimal. I don't like the, "Why would you make a monk? Everyone KNOWS monks aren't viable without these supplements..." mentality.
Frankly, my favorite game I've ever played has been Fiasco and that's almost pure group storytelling outside of the necessity to have a scene end in a certain fashion.
>>47780381
Problem is while in theory that should be a good thing, it also requires this sort of social contract to work at all. It's not that you can't have that kind of mentality because the rules are strong enough to prevent it, it's that the rules are so fragile the whole game completely falls apart and stops working completely if you do.
This isn't a good thing, be it Pathfinder or Fate of your game requires that kind of social contract in order to work at all it's poorly designed.
>>47779930
>>47779930
>The Aristocrat influences and socializes. Aristocrats are adept at fitting in at a
party, negotiating treaties and intimidating a Triad thug to stand down by virtue of
their authority or overwhelming presence.
>The Engineer builds and sabotages. Engineers are gifted with advanced technical expertise, able to perform jade refining processes, build clockwork devices or steam engines, and sabotage machinery
>The Explorer evades and navigates. Whether it’s behind the yoke of an airship, hiking the Fuksao Mountain range, or navigating the streets of Kausao City, Explorers are masters of their terrain.
>The Fighter attacks and maneuvers. Either as members of a formal military or focusing on personal combat, Fighters are trained in the use of a wide-range of weaponry and combative techniques.
>The Scholar thinks and discovers. Interpreting the world around you, recalling knowledge, and gathering relevant information are all part and parcel of what it means to be a Scholar.
>The Scoundrel sneaks and deceives. A master of lies and infiltration, a Scoundrel can sneak past guards, come up with a good cover story, and commit acts of crime.
There's the quick blurbs from the book.
>>47780149
>why would you ever accept a compel
Because you literally HAVE to if you don't have any points to decline with
>>47781878
>Because you literally HAVE to if you don't have any points to decline with
Shit mechanic.
>>47781971
Why?
>>47781994
Compels costing FP to refuse will forever be retarded.
>>47781994
>>47782025
I can see the reasoning why some would consider it retarded, because there's no neutral outcome. You either reward the player for playing along or you punish them for rejecting your input into the narrative. It's a mechanic that says "do this or else."
It'd be far less retarded if they could simply turn the compel down and then pay a fate point to turn the compel around on the GM.
>>47767652
Because telling players that they should intentionally gimp themselves is a terrible game design choice because of its farther reaching consequences for gamemasters.
Trying to run a coherent game for people who are literally rewarded for playing in a self-sabotaging manner is stupidly difficult. Even presuming the game system actually manages to pull the whole reward feature off in such a way as to be worth the magnitude of the player's fuckup (Which it never does, causing smart players to look for "acceptable losses" through which to extract meta currency, and not bother doing it with "important stuff, since they're worth the same amount, leading us to a near-identical situation; players ultimately acting in their best self interest while minimizing their losses), as a game master, you are now dealing with a party that will actively be trying to sabotage their own chances at success, which is far more difficult to deal with no matter how you slice it. Any GM who has played one of these wretched systems and claimed to not have had to deal with campaign-threatening calamity because a player judged a meta token more worthwhile than the lives of both himself and his party is lying through his fucking teeth.
I really want this "fuck yourself over for a meta token" meme to stop. It makes any responsible GM's job utterly maddening.
![tenra-full[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/OQZt3NE.jpg "tenra-full[1].jpg")
>>47777943
>+ it's probably the best "anime RPG" there is, even better than ones that try to specifically be that
But no.
>>47782253
>I really want this "fuck yourself over for a meta token" meme to stop.
I want this "I want this meme to stop" meme to stop.
>>47782281
I guess I should say "best not-actually-from-Japan anime RPG," but you are correct there.
>>47782443
>>47782510
>anyone who disagrees with me is shitposting
>>47770738
Risus has a similar approach to character building, but incidentally can have death spirals.
Fighting to the death in Risus is a bad idea for this reason--which isn't a downside in itself, just let it be known so the players actually display some self preservation. Be mindful of what's at stake before you start shit.
Marvel Heroic is similar to Fate in that it has the same fiction-first goals for interpretation and adjudication of details and abilities. It's actually got a fair number of similarities in the details: It has the equivalent of aspects that even reward plot-fueling currency when working against you, and it has something similar to Fate's stunts that set your character's abilities apart from someone else's, which may or may not require a 'plot point' to activate.
>>47772814
So you're... mad that they want disabled people to feel more included in your hobby?
I legitimately can't think of a reason to have that position that doesn't involve you being a spiteful asshole.
>>47774596
kek
>>47783755
I think the idea is it's really transparent pandering. It shouldn't be necessary to have to publish a "Fate: Handicapped Heroes" splat to make disabled people feel more included in the hobby.
All it will do is make people with disabilities feel more alienated by singling them out (something they tend to hate) and they only people they'll be getting their brownie points from are the overprivilaged middle class tumblrites.
>>47784047
i'm a total lefty inclusive SJW and even I think a 'Fate for Handicapped People' is dumb.
If you are disabled, physically or mentally, you have dealt with it. You know how to cope and interact with society enough to buy an RPG. And so you possess the intelligence to make an appropriate character.
Yes, being disabled sucks. You should be congratulated on still making things as normal as they can be. You don't need something that ephemeral.
Plenty of informative answers itt, thanks a lot people.
>>47766897
>Trying to gimp themselves to pick up bonuses
Players don't get the option to do this. The DM has to make it known he is compelling them.
>>47784507
>Players don't get the option to do this.
You know "self compel" is a thing, right?
>>47784507
"If you’re in a situation where having or being around a certain aspect means your character’s life is more dramatic or complicated, anyone can compel the aspect. You can even compel it on yourself—that’s called a self-compel. Compels are the most common way for players to earn more fate points."
Literally the first fucking sentence under "compelling aspects."
>>47768803
>>47771988
Aren't you two supposed to be arguing in /wodg/?
>>47783755
What is stopping a disable person from playing a kind of game where you can literally pretend to be anything you want? Should there be a separate book/supplement for third-world people like myself so I can feel more included in the hobby?
Not trying to the derail the thread, and I'm sure you mean well, but the modern Western safe space/political correctness/inclusivity method for dealing with social and cultural diversity is horribly misguided and ultimately accomplishes nothing. It reeks of middle/upper class people trying to assuage their (misplaced) guilt by giving concessions to those worse off in the most condescending way possible.
/rant.
>>47784680
>middle/upper class people trying to assuage their (misplaced) guilt by giving concessions to those worse off in the most condescending way possible.
Congratulations, you've summed up the modern social justice movement perfectly.
>>47782080
I just think it'd be nice if the GM offered--not demanded--a compel event. It could be rejected if the player A.) thinks it's un-fun or B.) doesn't feel any hunger for FP.
Giving the player ideas can't be a bad thing, at the least.
In fairness, compels are the part of Fate which I have yet to fully use properly.
>>47785676
>I just think it'd be nice if the GM offered--not demanded--a compel event. It could be rejected if the player A.) thinks it's un-fun or B.) doesn't feel any hunger for FP.
That's the way it SHOULD work, but the rules are written so that any compel by the GM is a demand, whether the GM likes it or not.
Of course you can easily houserule it, but the ability to houserule a problem doesn't mean the problem didn't exist in the first place.
>>47785756
>>47785676
Some research shows that's how it works in Strands of Fate.
>>47785781
Strands is really an underrated Fate clone. It's kind of looked down on by most of the Fate community because the authors of Fate Core spent a lot of time shitting all over it because it plays a lot more like a "traditional" RPG than Core and Accelerated's floaty mother-may-I bullshit, but it's way more intuitive in a lot of ways.
>>47785816
Very good to know, since I've been hacking up Fate myself.
>>47783755
It's a terribly misguided approach at best and condescending and estranging at worst. It would probably offend most handicapped people I can think of more than it would help them.
>>47779752
Fucking
"Cleverly"
Cleverly sprint up a fucking wall and cleverly shoot a located gas tank and cleverly dodge a fist
Skills, Skill Modes, Professions, Aspects--
whatever, just don't use the Approaches because some nigger makes OP-as-fuck Ozymandias-wannabe
Anyone heard of Fantaji? It's a FATE clone but it's a bit different in structure
>>47786836
This is where your GM needs to stop being a fucking retard and lay down the law.
Being smart doesn't save you from getting lamped in the jaw, being fast does. Being smart won't help move that heavy boulder, either. Crank up that difficulty or flat out deny that approach.
If a player's all "HURR BUT WHAT IF I'M A SUPERGENIUS WHO KNOWS EVERYTHING SOMEONE'S GOING TO DO" remind him knowing it'll happen isn't the same as being able to stop it, and that Watchmen would've been a very different tale if Laurie double-tapped.
>>47785816
tell me about strands of fate
>>47788229
tell us about it
>>47782281
Tell us about this one please?.
Anyone ever use this? I think there is hacking potential
>>47789471
Strands actually came out before Fate Core, so it has some wonky bits that Core set out to improve, but also makes its own attempts at improving things.
As said, it plays a lot more like a traditional RPG, with things like skill checks for success/failure existing instead of doing mental gymnastics to justify how a check is somehow an Overcome action against some bullshit aspect that doesn't need to exist, and point-buy character creation with advantages and disadvantages of varying levels of power depending on what kind of game you're going for.
It's a lot easier for people who have never played Fate but are coming in from traditional RPGs to wrap their heads around.
Instead of stunts you have said advantages and disadvantages built with a pool of points, and they range from "Mundane but extraordinary" to "phenomenal cosmic powers" in both style and power. They're also neatly categorized by power level so GMs can say "this is a street level supers game, so no powers above tier X from the book."
And it also has point based equipment and vehicle construction rules.
The Evil Hat faggots shat on it a lot because it didn't fit THEIR vision of how Fate should work (and they probably saw it as competition since Core was just coming out when Strands was released), so a lot of the Fate community got turned away from it because they're pretentious faggots, just parroting Evil Hat's criticisms without ever even playing it.
>>47768803
I kinda wonder how Fate might function if Free Invocations and Boosts faded with time?
Idea 1: All FIs on one Aspect downgrade together
> Succeed with Style on Create Advantage roll
> Aspect has 2 Free Invocations
> Player has one turn to use both FIs
> If one turn passes both FIs become Boosts
> Player has one turn to use these 2 Boosts
> If another turn passes these 2 Boosts are gone
> The Aspect remains if appropriate
Idea 2: Free Invocations and Boosts fade one at a time
> Succeed with Style with Create Advantage
> Player has 2 Free Invocations
> If Player uses neither FI in one turn then one of them becomes a Boost
> If Player uses neither the FI or the Boost in one turn then the Boost is gone and the FI becomes a Boost
> If Player does not use the remaining Boost in one turn then the Boost is also gone
> The Aspect remains as appropriate
I am the only who thinks there too much Aspects using in Fate Core?
>>47794095
How so?
>>47794148
Everything is a fucking Aspect. Character have 3 to 5 Aspects. Scenes have Aspects. Adversaries have Aspects.
And so on.
>>47794181
I had the same problem with FATE. How the fuck are you supposed to remember the character + scene + NPC + temporary aspects that are in play constantly?
I kept forgetting aspects in the middle of play, and it made for very not-smooth gameplay.
>>47794181
>>47794487
Ryan Macklin, one of the lead writers of Fate, decries aspect bloat here:
http://ryanmacklin.com/2013/11/fate-misconceptions-and-aspect-spamming/
Also as mentioned above, Ryan Macklin advises killing the "create an advantage" invocation spiral by introducing a fifth action, discover:
http://ryanmacklin.com/2014/10/fate-the-discover-action/
>>47794181
Copypasta:
Aspects are about spending Fate Points to Invoke them or earning Fate Points to Compel them, right?
Wrong.
This is how Aspects actually work:
> 1) Aspects are always true
> 2) Aspects give permissions
> 3) Aspects are clearly phrased
> 4) Aspects move the adventure forward.
To illustrate why those are the pillars of all good Aspects, let's assume the opposite of each.
> An Aspect is not true
Why give a character Aspects like "Super-Strong," "Billionaire Industrialist," or "Student of Wizardry" if your character is not super-strong, a billionaire industrialist, or a student of wizardry? Why would you give your character Aspects that they could never Invoke or be Compelled for if they aren't true and therefore could never move the adventure forward because they are irrelevant?
> An Aspect doesn't grant permissions
If I have a "Billionaire Industrialist" my character had better 1) have a net worth in the billions, 2) have the various perks that come with being so wealthy, and 3) know a thing or two about business and the industry that he or she makes money from. Those things and more should be implied and agreed upon when the GM signs off on it. If I get none of those things then why would I have an Aspect that says I do? The Aspect is no longer true. How do I Invoke or Compel it if I don't even have what it says?
> Aspects are not clear
What good is an Aspect that no one understands? How is anyone supposed to know what's true about your character if we don't understand how you derive those truths from your phraseology? How can we trust that you get certain permissions or not others if you vaguely word it? How does anyone know when to Invoke or Compel your bad Aspect? How are they supposed to use it?
> Aspects don't move the story forward
Why would you sink Fate Points into an Aspect that accomplishes nothing? Why would you ever get a Compel if nothing that matters to anyone or anything gets complicated as a result of it?
1/2
>>47794487
Cont'd
Fate is not about the Fate Points. The Fate Points are an abstraction that facilitates the interplay of Aspects.
When I Create Advantage, I'm establishing new truths that grant new permissions and which move the adventure forward.
When I Attack, the end result is that my opponents have Consequences which are... Aspects. A Broken Arm is a new truth about one's character which affects what they can do; what they are permitted to do. It presents new opportunities to advance the adventure if that character's Broken Arm is exploited for good or bad.
When I Defend, I am trying to prevent a new truth from emerging.
And when I Overcome, I am eliminating the truths and permissions that stand in my character's way, which only moves the adventure further forward.
For my allies are the Aspects. And powerful allies they are. Gameplay creates them, makes them grow. Their energy surrounds us and binds us as player-characters. Narrative beings are they, not this crude matter. You must feel the Aspects around you. Here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere! Yes, even between the land and the ship.
>>47794883
>>47794899
What a pretentious twat.
That doesn't address the issue of aspect bloat at all, and just uses a lot of flowery speech to explain what we already know.
>>47783500
>Anyone who mindlessly memes and acts like his shitpost disagreement is anything but a shitpost is a shitposter
Correct.
>>47772618
>What the fuck I thought Heroquest was bronze age fantasy (Glorantha and all that) until I googled it just now.
It is. There are two editions. First edition HeroQuest had Glorantha and was basically RuneQuest with a different system, for reasons. Second edition HeroQuest was basically a generic system.
I like it quite a bit as well. It deals with scaling well, it deals with bonuses/penalties well, and has a good method of generating characters and skills. The only problems I have are the narrative progression (which assumes a specific curve and I don't know if it works otherwise) and the XP system isn't that great.
Definitely worth checking out anyways, in my opinion.
>>47795495
> Aspect bloat
> what we already know
You don't get Aspects.
>>47795943
It's definitely on my "To Play" list.
>>47796110
>Delusion is real
>>47794181
>>47794487
You keep forgetting them because you keep trying to give them cool sounding names and phrases instead of cutting to the chase.
Also, keeping track of Aspects isn't hard. It's keeping track of the Free Invocations that is confusing.
>>47792352
It's a system designed for 1-shots set in a science fantasy setting.
Any more detail you should read for yourself. I'll link a previous post I've made about it.
https://desustorage.org/tg/thread/44222166/#44260697
To briefly relate it to this conversation, I think it's meta token system is way fucking better than PCs because it doesn't try to make them step outside the character and act against their own character's interests. Even taken at the most blatantly minmaxy gameplay style, the Karma system is literally a powergaming resistant story engine that helps forge an interesting and evolving narrative no matter the rationale of its players. It's incredible, and it's a far better system than making a player step outside their character's purely to decide if shooting themselves in the foot is worth some benny point.
Games that force you to choose between optimal play and interesting are gay. Games that unify optimal and interesting play are where it's fucking at.
>>47796158
Let's try the Socratic method.
Explain Aspects for the class.
>>47796241
Color me interested.
Okay but genuinely what system should I use if I want to run a kitchen sink fantasy type game, but have a playgroup that also does like it when it's gamey but not too gamey (we actually are fine with D&D but a little less would be cool), but I don't really have the time to spend forever editing the rules.
>>47796565
Try this. It provides a guide to translating 3.PF characters over to Fate. Might serve as a good bridge. Just beware that Fate does not play the same as d20 of course.
>>47796207
>ou keep forgetting them because you keep trying to give them cool sounding names and phrases instead of cutting to the chase.
The fucking book say instead of you using something easy to remember like "Fucking Barbarian" or "Op is a Faggot" for naming your Aspect you need to choose something "unique" like "TransGender Queer How Digits on C#" and "Born Under a TPM Murderhoboing Moon".
And thing only gets worse, because instead of having rules to trivial bullshit like falling damage or fucking fire the book says "use an Aspect, they solves everything!", "Narrative is EVERYTHING" and other lazy bullshits.
Because the designer is a lazy hipster faggot. So, fuck you.
>>47765261
All the rolls are the same thing. The game world feels like it's made out of cardboard because skills are the only thing that matter. Throwing a rock is the same as shooting a gun.
Play GURPS instead.
>>47797164
>Throwing a rock is the same as shooting a gun.
Weapon and Armor Values do a lot to alleviate this.
>>47798977
Nah, they're often zero sum unless used properly.
I still think of it in terms of permissions...the kind of consequences that a rock can cause are very different than the kinds that a gun can. And they also get differing reactions from NPCs and PCs. Or they should.
>>47799023
>unless used properly.
You refuted your own refute.
>>47794181
>>47794487
Well, DnD has a lot of numbers. Is it really that different? (serious question)
>>47796985
[Citation Needed]
>>47767667
>Because it rewards performing an action repetitively for a mechanical bonus
We can make the same argument about good stats in ANY game. A high strength encourages fighters to attack repetitively, a high intelligence encourages wizards to cast spells repetitively, et cetera.
>>47800577
Read the fucking core book
>>47801030
Give a page number, faggatron.
>>47794899
>>47794883
At this point it's not even a game, it's a hypothetical committee activity.
You are presenting concepts to a chairperson for approval.
>>47788229
What's so good about Fantaji? The preview on DriveThruRPG sounds like inane bullshit.
>>47802436
And FATE isn't?
>>47794181
I'd imagine the people who like FATE like it /because/ everything is handled under just one universal mechanic.
>>47797164
I'd prefer to think throwing a rock is in the same category as chucking up a fistful of sand: create advantage.
Most actions short of things that can injure are overcome/CA, really.
>>47801030
> I haven't read the core book
>>47802610
Those peole have shit taste.
>>47803416
A fine opinion on the matter of other people's opinions, m'anon.
>>47798977
I think this is a step in right direction, but I'd prefer to make something where weapons have strengths and weaknesses, not just "more damage".
>>47797164
>The game world feels like it's made out of cardboard because skills are the only thing that matter. Throwing a rock is the same as shooting a gun.
Holy shit, that's fucking wrong.
Aspects are everything, broseph. A rock doesn't do the same thing as a gun, because fictionally (as realistically) a rock and gun are not the same. And FATE is based around fiction.
Out of curiosity, do you also go to DW threads and tell them how shit their game is too? You remind me of someone....
>>47796985
>The fucking book say instead of you....
Stop right there.
The book says to use what works best for your group. It says that aspects should be usable both positively and negatively, and that's it.
The last part is important. Every aspect should be compel-able.
>And thing only gets worse, because instead of having rules to trivial bullshit like falling damage or fucking fire the book says "use an Aspect, they solves everything!"
If a character falls off a flying blimp and you don't know how to calculate how much damage they take when they hit the ground, you're retarded.
Trivial things don't need rules. That's what a GM is for in the first place. Making judgment calls for the minor scenarios.
>>47803766
>>47804333
Fatefags are the worst
>>47804518
>Discussing facts is hard! Can I go back to just making baseless complaints?
>>47804518
Because they are right and you wrong?
>>47804518
Yeah, Fate is too hard! Let's go back to Dungeon World, where ALL THE RULES ARE ON THE CHARACTER SHEET.
after reading this thread i will stay with my dnd
>>47804518
I know edition wars and "My system is better than your system, faggot" are a staple of /tg/ stuff but holy shit is the discussion in this thread awful.
Even when it's not summer, Fate threads have this nasty habit of bringing out the absolute worst in people. Like, I really like Fate, but it's got quite a few faults which keep me from using it as my go-to system. But holy shit anon, people are not automatically terrible just because they like a system you don't.
>>47808726
To be fair it was pretty civil up until that guy showed up.
>>47808824
The best parts of the Fate threads are the solutions for those who need more crunch out of Fate and the explanations to the book's poorer wording of rules.
Fun system, but written in a dumbass-huge book that wanks around trying to explain things nonlinearly.
>>47808726
In other systems you can discuss builds or long-established setting lore.
In fate threads there is no strategy or legacy world so there is nothing to talk about other than complaining.
You could rattle off aspects of old games but who would care about some arbitrary things from a game you never played in.
>>47808955
Well, correct
That's why, given the fact it's a dramatist toolkit system instead of a game, it's better for questions like, "how would you guys execute X"... which is what the G+ group does, most of the time.
>>47809031
This.
Your options for conversation come down to telling your favorite story of events in a setting (which really doesn't showcase the mechanics, and could be done without even mentioning the system), discussing interpretation (answering questions on how to do specific things), or complaints. There's really not much to discuss with the system... it works.
>>47796241
No one cares.
>>47809149
Except, you know, the guy who asked.
>>47809851
FATEfags are notoriously touchy and defensive, don't mind him.
+ Good advantage/disadvantage mechanics
+ You can play some unusual stuff without need to read 3 books of GURPS X
- Somewhat simplistic game mechanics (one roll type for everything, only 4 types of things on char sheet)
- Requires some system mastery from GMso that characters won't bash through everything using "Create advantage" move
>>47772990
Trying to solve things with top skill is present in any system that has skills. Bashing the door, lockpicking or bribing guard? I look at my sheet to see which skill is higher.
But 3 top skills (4/3/3 on default starting powerlevel) are usually not nearly enough to cover ALL the situations.
>>47773271
>>i am strong
>>i am fast
>>i am intelligent
Have fun when you run out of fate points with your non-compellable aspects. Also, rules state that at least one aspect is to be primarly a flaw.
>>47772990
The +5 skill cap is a very generous cap. I avoid it, personally, in a like-minded response to your criticism. I'd prefer a slightly wider set of skills per character but with less "height".
One way to increase the problem-solving procedure, as I've established, is to give certain Overcome and Create Advantage attempts face higher opposition, whereas the "efficient" solution is rated lower.
>>47774439
Tell me you wrenched them out of 3.5e
I need a heavy chortle
>>47782080
>because there's no neutral outcome.
Good neutral outcomes are shit, actions should cause progress positive or negative.
>>47788840
>Being smart doesn't save you from getting lamped in the jaw
It's called a feint
>Being smart won't help move that heavy boulder, either.
Basic physics and a lever will do exactly that.
>>47814898
I don't think you quite get what the post was talking about.
There's no "neutral outcome" in the sense the player is either rewarded or punished. Not the character, not the narrative, the player.
>>47814810
nah we used to play Donjon and rule-lite systems, 5e was the first "heavy" game we played and its the one we use more, i have play 3.5 though
>>47814932
And that's why Clever is a god-stat.
>>47816946
fuck that stat
Almost every remarkable thing humans have ever done stems from our ability to process information and act in advance.
Confirmed tier-list from Ryan Macklin:
Elder God-tier: Clever
Bretty Gud-tier: Quick
Mediocre-tier: Forceful, Careful
Abortion-tier: Flashy, Sneaky
>>47820011
Where is this tier list from?
>>47820158
My figurative ass, actually
>>47814932
>It's called a feint
doesn't matter if you can see it coming if you can't move in time
Having played a campaign using this system I can honestly say that:
I have no fucking clue as to how the authors intended aspects to be used.
We used aspects in two ways:
1. Justifying the use of a FATE point
2. GM bribes
What the fuck are the point of aspects? They felt completely arbitrary and clunky despite the book making them seem like the central mechanic of the game.
Can someone explain how aspects are supposed to work?
>>47821304
>doesn't matter if you can see it coming if you can't move in time
You don't know what a feint is, do you?
>>47821994
Aspects are probably the most misunderstood part of the system, and people often end up using them wrong and having the system not work, because they spam them or make aspects out of things that really don't need to be.
Basically, aspects are meant to explain quickly why something is important to the story. Because Fate is very much a game about the narrative. It's meant to emulate fictional stories, mostly the pulpy adventurous kind by default. Aspects are almost meant to be the "cell" of fiction.
If you think of movies or books, you can probably reduce the problems, characters, and situations down to aspects that can easily lead to the story that happened in that work.
As far as I can tell, the reasoning for aspects is that it fits this idea more than the traditional way RPGs give bonuses and leverage the mechanics, with tables of situational bonuses and penalties. The reason getting a bonus has to be tied to an aspect is because the game works off the Theory of Narrative Causality, that things happen because the story needs them to. The example I've given is that when someone is writing a book, they don't put the protagonist in a situation and then look at all the factors and decide what the most likely outcome is.
Instead, they decide which things happen to matter, and then choose to make the story go that way. Fate points represent your control over the story of the campaign, instead of being arbitrary mechanical bonus tokens like fate points in Dark Heresy, or Inspiration in 5th edition D&D. Aspects are there to make sure their game effect always has some story justification.
Hopefully that helped, and wasn't just a bunch of rambling.
>>47822341
>The example I've given is that when someone is writing a book, they don't put the protagonist in a situation and then look at all the factors and decide what the most likely outcome is.
This is what some people do, actually.
