Is Rick Chaotic Evil "done right"?
He's not just running around killing hoardes of babies and rubbing his hands together because evil.
However, he completely rejects anyone's authority other than his own, values his personal freedom above the safety of others, and is prone to changing his mind on a whim.
As for evil, regularly engages in felony, murder, arson, arms dealing, smuggling, pretty much everything.
Despite all of it, Rick is still very much human, has friends, can sit down and drink a beer and have a conversation with someone without sawing their head off and drink their blood. I think this is one of the few good portrayals of how Chaotic Evil can still be very much normalized and function (albeit with extreme friction) in a party.
>>47762870
>values his personal freedom above the safety of others
Except for his family. Rick has shown that he cares about Summer, Morty and Beth more then himself, even if he tried to keep it hidden.
>>47762870
I would argue that Rick is Chaotic Neutral rather than evil- as you say he rejects authority and values his freedom, but it's pretty clear that he cares at least somewhat for some of the people around him.His surrender at the end of season 2 for the sake of the familywas a selfless act. We don't know what went on in his past, but it's pretty clear he was involved in a large conflict with the current galactic powers that be. I think it likely this is a firefly-esque scenario of independence vs galactic domination.
He does a lot of evil shit, but it's generally as a form of revenge than pure "for the evil of it".
>>47762870
No.
i would argue true neutral.
>>47763021
Yeah cn not ce.
He's out for himself, not out to purposefully cause pain and suffering.
>>47763002
>>47763021
In my opinion someone can have loved ones and still be evil. I think it depends more on how you treat people you don't have a personal connection to.
>>47762870
>still using rigid DnD alignment this late in 2016
When will people realize characters hardly ever conform to one alignment all the time?
>>47763021
>>47763046
>>47763050
By D&D standards Rick is *very* much evil. By his own view of pragmatism and good/evil, Rick is not.
But you can't just murder people wholesale for profit and claim that you're being neutral. Too many examples of him killing for greed and not in self defense, or for revenge.
>>47763148
Yeah, as much as he tries to be a good guy, Morty telling Summer "First race war, huh?" is kind of proof that Rick (and by extension, Morty) get into some really fucked-up shit.
>>47763002
He only cares about them once they start really facing the consequences of his reckless actions. If he doesn't see them get hurt or think that their pain matters, he doesn't care.
>>47763021
He's so pragmatic and has a large-picture view, that he doesn't see his actions as evil compared to what would happen if he didn't do what he did. But he is CE.
>>47763148
Yeah, by a lot of definitions Rick is extremely evil and selfish/self-centered. Do you guys remember when Rick destroyed two entire universes (mini-verses, whatever) just so that a third one would effectively function as a car battery for his spaceship.
It may not be causing pain and suffering for no other purpose than that he enjoys the pain of suffering, but it is callousness and a complete disregard for other sentient life on a scale that (at least in gaming terms) would be very hard to describe as anything other than evil.
>>47762870
D&D alignments only "work" within the game.
They are not for general application to all media.
Fuck they don't even work in D&D...
Oh well.
He shows why alignments are retarded, he is chaotic good half the time and chaotic evil the other half.
hes not chaotic neutral because that implies something totally different.
just stop using alignments all together and your good
>>47763332
>I don't understand alignment.
That's nice. Why don't you go run off, and leave the actual discussion to the big boys, hmm?
>>47762870
Rick isn't exactly evil though.
He's more like Chaotic Neutral with an extreme bend to dickish.
>>47763148
Also, giving an antimatter gun to a hitman for arcade money.
>>47763496
He's a mass murderer who's enslaved multiple civilizations and literally out-deviled Satan.
He is, literally, worse than Hitler.
>>47763496
See
>>47763504
Rick is by all standards but his own evil. Him having friends and caring for his family do not absolve him of his evil actions, it only makes him a three dimensional character.
>>47763553
Even by Rick's own standards he's a bad guy. He admits it when he sacrificed himself to save Morty from the time paradox. Just most of the time he tries to avoid responsibility for his actions by drinking or through glib responses.
>>47763504
Wasn't his own justification that the hitman would get the gun anyway, no matter if he did anything or not? That sounds neutral to me - he's not against or for the consequences of his actions. He doesn't want the target's death per se, but he doesnt' care to stop it.
>>47763599
His drinking is less avoiding facing what he's done and more to forget all his lost. His just past the point of giving a fuck about the mayhem he causes, and that's what makes him interesting to me.
>>47763790
We're talking DnD metrics here, so no, that's pretty squarely evil.
Still say cn, mainly because he purposefully chooses not to be one of the herd, he chooses the actions available to him that will look after himself and companions. He doesn't look at the situation and go what is the worst thing o can do to these people ever, or how can I help these people, he's all riles are for the dumb, I don't subscribe to either I'm going to just live and do it my way as fuck it you only get one consciousness, fuck all those true neutral rickshaw trying to just exist and be all Ricky; I'm motherfucking Rick!
>>47763834
So basically the only way to be evil is to have literally no other desires but the pain and suffering of other people?
Can't wait till season 3 jumps the shark, Rick ends up like House, moral compass everyone, voices the writers petty frustrations and mewling fucknuts on the internet make dank memes about how much they love him because he gets it.
>>47763490
>>I don't understand alignment.
lol
In D&D there are "planes" of good , law, chaos, whatever.
In other cartoons obviously they don't have those planes, so they can't be "aligned" to them.
Fucking served.
>>47763834
Rick is still evil. Just because a genocidal maniac shrugs instead of laughing at his deeds, doesn't make him less evil.
>>47763021
He's killed an entire universe as a temporary distraction so he can escape. Doesnt get much more "dnd version of evil" than that.
>>47763790
No being neutral would be more that he doesn't call the authorities on the hitman when he knows he wants to assassinate someone.
Supplying the murder weapon (especially when the murder weapon is quite rare) is definitely an evil act
>>47763834
He does encourage the wanton murder of sentient things for purely personal gain. The very first episode he gets into a shootout with security guards in order to smuggle crystals up Morty's ass.
>>47763332
This.
>>47763890
I would say so, most of his actions are in response to other people/organizations actions. Take selling the gun to Micheal, he knows Michael is going to get a gun some how so he may as well posit on it, he has no moral compunctions about it, he's not going to go assassinate anyone though.
He doesn't care about the world's problems, hence the neutrality of it; he used to be chaotic good most likely, but since the galatic wars just doesn't give a fuck anymore.
Just because he kills things, or by encountering them causes massive death and suffering doesn't make him evil; he doesn't mean to fuck shit up it just happens as a consequence of escape/survival/saving the day.
>>47763972
>The very first episode he gets into a shootout with security guards in order to smuggle crystals up Morty's ass.
Which turned out to be entirely pointless because the seeds dissolved in Morty's ass before he could get them out and presumably make some sort of mind enhancing superscience potion with them.
>>47763988
>I didn't mean to kill all those people, I just needed to in order to get away with hurting people without facing any consequences. It isn't evil!
>>47763002
Caring for no one but your own is classic evil, according to this guy.
...Though I suppose it still might not fit D&D demon cartoon classic evil.
>>47763988
You are running on a model of evil and good in which intention matters more than consequences. The Taliban is lawful good then.
>>47763972
The only problem I have with that argument is that Rick really makes it sound as if the hitman will manage to get an antimatter gun, whether he makes it for him or not. I know the antimatter gun is rare, but it doesn't sound impossible to get if Rick can sell it for only enough for an arcade splurge.
If it were a more common item, like a knife or a regular gun, it wouldn't even be a question: knives can be found or bought just about anywhere.
>>47764030
Can't hold humans up to demon's standards of evil. They got all that instinctual empathy baggage and families and such.
Near everyone justifies their actions, few are evil in their own eyes. Evil lies almost exclusively in the eyes of others.
>>47764077
Melvin Just saw himself as the pimp of all pimps.
>>47763790
He's still providing a professional murderer with a rare weapon so he can take his grandson to an arcade, and it was kind of implied that they'd done business on other occasions as well.
Reminder that Gygax had some kinda fucked up ideas about morality and his system is not remotely a good idea for anything beyond D&D.
>>47764254
/nofunallowed
>>47764254
Gygax had so many shit ideas that just ruined the genre.
>>47764107
>>47764030
Man at first glance I thought that was Ming the Merciless. Was Disappointed it wasn't.
>>47764411
He's not wrong though. As useful as the alignment system can be for identifying a character's tendencies, it is not without its flaws. Gygax was sort of a moral absolutist.
>>47764437
Common mistake. Ming the Merciless would never have been so evil as to turn Ayn Rand into a religion.
>>47763930
judging by the breakdowns the writers have had on social media, i wouldnt be surprised. they're fucking insane
>>47764457
Not saying he's wrong - but Gygax was not a moral absolutist, so much as he was making a game in which good and evil were real, physical forces, rather than human judgements. Makes for a very different world, and a very different set of scales.
After all, only a Sith deals in absolutes.
>>47764484
Oh dear, what were they getting up to?
>>47764484
Fuck, what happened?
I tried to watch Rick and/or Morty but it was too misanthropic. It's liek tehw riter voice actor dude's personal magical realm where he is the cool smart guy and everyone else is a stupid fuck for him to make fun of.
Plus the infinite universes thing removes all value from life.
I don't want to deal with anyone who takes such a grim view on things. But fuck me since it's a super popular show so now a generation of shitheads are going to mimic it and be edgy sociopaths.
>>47764528
It's just a mirror to the human condition bring programmed into people via capitalism.
It's not slavery, they work for each other...
Eh, I'm pretty sure he's neutral evil.
>doesn't give a shit about rules
>out for himself
>doesn't actively go out of his way to cause harm, but if its in his benefit he will
I dunno, I've always read neutral on the chaotic-law axis as being more of a not giving a damn about social constructs like rules propriieties and such while chaotic is more actively subverting them (like the stereotypical "problem with authority" guy whereas neutral is the "eh, whatever, sure thing" until it starts affecting them negatively and then they're like "fuck that").
But that's likely my idiosyncratic read.
>>47764528
Yeah the pilot turned me off forever.
Then I got a second recommendation and watched episode 2, and actually enjoyed it.
It's like the tone between the two episodes shifted from "suffering is funny" to "suffering is unavoidable and you might as well laugh".
And yeah. CE Rick for sure. Character development might drop him down to CN, but his actions are inexcusably CE.
The thing is, he's one of an exclusive club that can INTERACT with an infinite multiverse. You know how people in sandbox RPGs often go berserk for a bit and then load a quick save? He can do that in Real Life.
Plus, infinite multiverse means something particularly nasty.
>EVERY TIME RICK DOES SOMETHING GOOD, IT CREATES A REALITY WHERE HE FAILS AT IT.
Meaning that every "good" act actually dooms countless universes by creating the possibility of his "good" act failing or backfiring.
When you know that every action you make brings suffering to untold billions, how do you motivate yourself to do anything?
>>47763988
>Take selling the gun to Micheal, he knows Michael is going to get a gun some how so he may as well posit on it, he has no moral compunctions about it, he's not going to go assassinate anyone though.
If no-one sold guns or weapons to assassins the costs of assassinations would go up and therefore the number of people willing to use assassins would go down, and assassinations would therefore drop to a lower rate than before.
If only a few people sold arms to assassins the price increase is less still but it's still better than actively helping.
"Someone's going to profit from this act of evil so it might as well be me" is an evil act itself. Selling the bug guy the gun is one step from hiring services as a spotter to murder someone and two steps from pulling the trigger yourself.
It's an evil act.
>>47764623
He was an anti-government terrorist for quite a while though.
>>47763021
I second this.
>>47764645
"One less person doing this evil thing would make the evil thing marginally less straightforward" is the Neutral response.
"I'm not going to do this evil thing and I'll try and prevent you from doing it too" is the Good response. Where you actively go out of your way to prevent harm from coming to innocents.
Which is what Morty did.
ITT people with a very planetary mindset
>>47764648
Doesn't necessarily imply chaotic though, especially if he were working within the framework of a larger organization. Also it's one of those deals where you have to weigh the body of behavior.
That said, I'm not super familiar with the show so I could well be off base.
>>47764030
Anton LaVey is a hack
>>47764645
>If no-one sold guns or weapons to assassins the costs of assassinations would go up and therefore the number of people willing to use assassins would go down, and assassinations would therefore drop to a lower rate than before.
non sequitur
>>47764682
So...Rick, selling the gun to insect guy, and profiting from the murder of others, is an evil act, right?
>>47764645
Michael's target was an omnicidal energy being though, kind of legitimate to kill.
>>47764849
but rick didn't know that when selling him the gun, so it's necessarily not a moral choice he made
Rick has proof that there are infinite alternate universes, and therefore proof that all life is equally worthless.
>>47764920
So? Just because there's no intrinsic meaning to existence, doesn't mean you can't make your own.
>>47764920
this guy gets it
>>47762870
I like that Rick is very much a D&D PC and day to day life is exasperating for him because most people are the equivalent of NPCs.
It would be soul crushing.
>>47763308
>Rick destroyed two entire universes (mini-verses, whatever)
Teenyverses.
>>47765085
Only one of them was a teenyverse.
>>47762870
chaotic neutral
chaotic evil would be if he did all those things for the fun of it. rick only kills people that have wronged him or if he is in danger and he only steals from people if they could survive without it.
>>47765198
>chaotic good is an angel
That doesn't seem right.
>>47763790
His justification was that he would kill his target anyway, but that's all it was, a justification.
At the very least, he didn't need to profit and aid the assassination.
It's not like he knew Fart wanted to destroy the universe, he just wanted pocket change for Blitz and Chitz and most likely had other avenues for that money, but Rick simply doesn't care or even see what Crombopulous Michael was doing as wrong. In his mind, it doesn't matter in the longer run, because nothing really does, and probably just liked the idea that this action might have fucked with the Federation is all.
Also, he literally manipulated and corrupted a hivemind for basically his own pleasure.
That said, while he's not afraid to shed blood and kill (Even his own clones), he's not bloodthirsty either, as shown in the purge episode where he at first wanted to watch the purge for entertainment, but quickly realized that it wasn't something a person watches for entertainment.
Let's also not forget that he doomed the earth of his actual home universe, and rather than fix it, he jumped to reality where another version of him fixed it, and immediately died, then replaced him.
He also IS definitively on the evil end of the spectrum, as we saw in the episode where an even Evil-er version of himwho was actually a Mortyshowed him that he was basically a step away from him on the spectrum of good to evil (The guy between them? SUPER weird).
He's not the MOST evil Rick, but he's pretty damn Evil by the standards of Ricks.
>>47765214
i thought that lawful only meant you follow the laws of men. an angel would do the right thing no matter what the law says
>>47765198
Except that's bullshit.
He didn't need to kill the teenyverse at all. It hadn't wronged him.
>>47765252
but like, what if man has chaotic evil laws dude
>>47765252
>I thought lawful only meant you follow the laws of man
Good lord, no. Lawful means that you adhere to a strict sense of Order. Angels are literally Law incarnate. They were created as a functional hierarchy and cannot deviate from it because God's word is Absolute.
They are literally flying bags of Law.
>>47765267
Then they are lawful evil.
>>47765276
God and angels don't follow laws, they do what is objectively good.
>>47765276
Would that not make them Lawful Neutral?
>>47762870
He's neutral. Chaotic neutral at best.
Good and evil are just for children's stories.
>>47765252
Lawful means that you follow a code of some kind, but which code you follow is less important. Paladins can follow the laws of their god without caring about the laws of man and still be lawful, for instance. Or a person can make their own personal rules and, as long as they remain consistent and stick to them, they can be lawful without necessarily caring about or following anyone else's laws.
That said, not following the laws of man can lead to unnecessary complications and a lot of personal codes can include those laws. So a lot of lawful characters will just follow them out of convenience until the laws conflict.
>>47764920
counterpoint: Quantity doesn't determine worth
>>47765316
>God and angels don't follow laws, they do what is objectively good.
that depends on the setting.
>>47765376
worth is always subjective. There's no such thing as value in the universe.
>>47764000
In that same episode he also drunkenly puled Morty out of bed and was planning to get Morty's crush with them so he could drop a bomb he mae on earth and start humanity fresh with Morty and Jessica as a new Adam and Eve, while also over explaining how he would never make a move on Morty's girl.
hah your so wrong wow, hes so lawful good its funny.
>>47764484
Dan and Justin? Dan has Depression/Anxiety, so he has a kinda of breakdown every once in a while (Happened around the time he was fired from Community as well).
Justin is just a drunken weirdo.
Damned if they don't know how to make an extremely violent and hilarious show with lots of heart.
>>47765459
So? There's a nearly infinite amount of parallel earths.
>>47765525
>There are virtually infinite amounts of people on earth, its okay to just kill one if you feel like it
>>47765402
Which was summed up really neatly with Morty's speech to Summer. The main thrust of which "No one has worth, or purpose, the universe is meaningless, cold, merciless, and miserable, and all you can do is try to impose what meaning you can on it. Come watch TV with your family." Which is either the most or least nihilistic thing I've ever heard, but it's beautiful regardless.
>>47764528
It actually gets better as it goes on. As the show goes on, people keep calling Rick out on his shit and the show takes pains to show that he's a total dick, but the only reason his family keeps him around is because his daughter is super traumatized from being abandoned by him and doesn't want him to leave again.
Many times throughout the show, it's shown that Jerry actually brings up some good points, but he's not very smart, and a complete Jackass, so he gets dismissed out of turn.
Morty is also becoming a dick over time.
But it's a great show, and everyone is very human. Even the aliens.
>>47765558
Yes, basically. Why is life valuable? Find me an answer that doesn't hinge on the notion of a life being unique.
>>47762870
Clearly Egoism done right
>>47765564
It's existentialist, not nihilist.
>>47765317
Only if you assume God isn't good.
...Which is why we have Archons.
>>47764254
Reminder that Gygax's ideas about morality were completely appropriate for the setting in a way that people living in an advanced, safe, prosperous, modern era can't appreciate.
>>47765174
Right. He destroyed the Mini-Verse the Mini-Verse was in.
But not the microverse, because he needs that to run his car.
>>47765572
Because we, as sapient beings, value ourselves by our own selfish desire to remain alive and fear of death. We share that value with other species based on common courtesy from similarity and proximity.
>>47765241
I don't see anything wrong with how he replaced himself in another universe is evil. He was going to die in that universe at that exact time he just did nothing to prevent it, knowing that the universe provides infinite answers to his problems and dilemmas.
>>47765572
There are a lot more things not alive than things alive, and there are a lot more not things than things.
>>47765621
So how does that make morals more than an evolutionary trait that compels us how to act? Morals only apply to people you can benefit from helping, which is why you don't pick up every stranger you see hitchhiking.
Next you'll say that love is more than a chemical addiction to keep mating pairs together long enough to get a kid started.
>>47765459
But that was for the good of humanity anon.
>>47765682
And the only place where value for any of that exists is in the minds of people, thus making it a bit of a tautology. "Life matters because life appreciates itself, as a means to an end"
>>47765558
No which means in one universe he did restart earth with Morty and Samantha? Also in one he cucked Morty and in another he didnt
>>47765572
If for no tother reason that it shows how hollow Rick's philosophy about how freedom is the most important thing and it's wrong for other people to impose their will on others. If he were to drop that bomb, it would not be in defense of his personal liberty, but simply because he just doesn't like how others choose to live their lives. He's okay with killing them and taking away any choice they had at all.
>>47765653
It's more that instead of fixing the the damage he caused, he chose to just leave and avoid any and all consequences, and basically just feels not guilt over the horror he wrought.
>>47765607
They weren't appropriate for any ancient era where that wasn't the case in this reality either.
They are, however, perfectly appropriate for a reality where good and evil have physical manifestations, independent of human judgement, and there are literal gods walking about.
The only crossover would be that there may at one time been more people who believed this world works as his fictional one does.
>>47765753
>basically just feels not guilt over the horror he wrought
Rick is cripplingly suicidal. He even tries, and fails for some reason, in one closing scene.
Rick is a tortured soul.
>>47762870
He's canonically Chaotic Evil.
>>47765722
Probably because he's lived long enough to know that giving people choices never improves anything. He's a super genius, so he doesn't like having idiots impose their will on him.
Did people here not watch the whole show? He was pretty high on the Evil Ranking List that pirateMortydrew up during the whole Council of Ricks episode.
>>47765815
>and fails for some reason,
Literally because the drugs, booze, and sleep deprivation caught up with him and knocked him out seconds before the beam hit. He passed out and fried the crystal.
>>47765851
The crystal exploded, the beam didn't work. His head hit the table afterwards.
>>47765753
See that just proves he's chaotic beutral; fucks up, isn't pleased isn't upset, doesn't feel like he needs to exploit the situation, or solve it so just leaves. Also in all fairness it worked out for "him" multidimensionaly as kronenburger rick and Morty had a place to live normally in.
>>47765850
>He was pretty high on the Evil Ranking List
That Evil Ranking List was pretty likely a crock of shit, since the source was ludicrously biased and unreliable. The Rick we see doesn't actually seem that different from the other Ricks besides being a lot more antisocial and cooperative, which aren't evil traits in and of themselves.
>>47765861
The crystal explodes whenever the ray is fired. Even when he fried the jellybaby to test the ray, it blew a crystal.
>>47763021
If you look at real life people that would slot into the D&D evil alignments, serial killers for instane, many have families, love their families, their communities even.
Evil characters don't have to be baby stabbing, child eating, bedshitting lunatics.
>>47765861
Wrong reach, the crystal blows as that is the power source, lol Ike old camera flashes. He drops his head moments before following his squishy test subject.
>>47762870
He's Chaotic Neutral man, the other evil rick(morty) was chaotic evil
>>47765905
Good and evil are relative to the region.
>>47765843
Yeah, but he sometimes kills idiots who have nothing to do with him and want nothing to do but to live their idiots lives with no idea of who he is just by a consequence of him being a total asshole.
>>47765896
>Even when he fried the jellybaby to test the ray
I really gotta start watching this show.
>>47765948
Another example of neutral behavior is the curing of space aids.
Which is a good thing, which he will profit off, imprisoning a alien, who is also a pedafile, and would eat human beings if able.
Also when they stopped time, he didn't use the opportunity to take over the world, instead he just docked around doing stuff to amuse himself from existence for a moment, like exchanging all the money for cookies
>>47762870
For a D&D I'd be down with accepting that reasoning.
Of course it's important to remember the main reason he gets away with all his bullshit is because he drastically outclasses pretty much everyone else around him.
If he weren't such a badass he's probably lean into neutral and maybe even good.Also, alignments are only retarded if you take them seriously. They can totally be used to help conceptualise a character and spice up a sheet. Not to mention they offer some nice fodder for conversation once you get past the idea that there must be an absolute resolution.Alignments can work if you're not a fucking spaz
>>47765878
Except when he does actively exploits other evil situations for his own gain.
Not saying he does it a lot, because he doesn't. The show mostly revolves around him having adventures and not giving a fuck, and awful things happen around him as a consequence of his actions.
>>47765815
That he is. And it seems like he's doomed to just keep falling into the same patterns of self-centeredness and overwhelming despair, and for all his genius, he struggles to grow even a bit, and holds onto to all his resentments and losses.
It's tragic, and I love watching it.
But he's a pretty goddamn evil, because no matter how much he justifies or explains his actions, it doesn't change those actions or their consequences.
I love this goddamn show, it's so fascinating and stupid at the same time.
>>47766041
How does that make him evil?
"Kills sentients not at the behest of some official?" = evil?
>>47763948
>Fucking served.
C'mon, man, that's as bad as /thread-ing yourself.
>>47766195
Where does mic-dropping yourself fall on that scale?
>>47766081
Yeah, but, do you really think Rick would have any trouble taking over the world if he wanted to? If not this Universe than in another?
For fucks sake, he easily destroyed the entire planet in a half-hearted attempt to get Morty laid, and just blew it off like it was nothing.
>>47766211
It doesn't. Mic-dropping is something you do when you're done, but it has to be done in person, when there's an audience there to react immediately to your doing so.
>>47766126
Going back to the previous argument, in which freedom trumps all and anyone who imposes their will on others and takes away their choice is wrong, then by his own philosophy, he's in the wrong when he is killing sentients with whom he had no quarrel with, and posed literally no threat to him or his family.
Personally, I do believe killing sentient beings, period, is an evil act, but we're doing this based on Rick's own views, and moral relativism is hard to argument, because everyone who argues for it is a stubborn goddamn jackass and will just say "Well, there's no such thing as good or evil, so you're wrong" until you're about ready to shove their hand in a garbage disposal, but need to remind yourself that giving into the anger doesn't gain you anything, and the immediate benefits of said actions will not benefit you beyond a quick feeling of temporary relief and schaudenfreude as they writhe on the ground and screaming that you mangled their hand as they try to block the bleeding and you smile smugly and look down at them crowing "Ah, but there is no inherent wrong or right in the universe, so it doesn't really matter, now does it. Besides, if there's an infinite number of universes, there's an infinite number of versions of yourself who aren't bleeding out on the floor as they grasp their gorey stumps, so it doesn't matter does it?" And you kick them. Again and again, laughing.
... What were we talking about again?
Right. Yes, Rick killing innocent idiots is still evil.
>>47765815
>I kill innocent people but feel bad about it even though I keep doing it wah wah wah can't call me evil
>>47766126
What fucked up world do you live in that killing numerous people at random just because they happened to be there at the wrong time and feeling no remorse for it *isn't* evil?
>>47766267
>Right. Yes, Rick killing innocent idiots is still evil.
So the bombing of hiroshima and nakasaki are evil acts?
I'm not even touching that phil 101 tldr.
>>47766297
The real world. Ever hear of civilian casualties? Every time a drone flies it happens. Are we an evil nation?
Good and evil don't exist in quantifiable terms. They're made up, superficial, regional, completely subjective. What one person considers evil another may not. You can make up boxes to put people into all day long, but don't pretend it means anything.
>>47766333
The whole reason you are even invested in this conversation is because you're making up boxes. "Social constructs don't matter and I must convince people of that" is a fucking box. It's all boxes.
>>47766333
>he doesn't know that the american government is objectively evil
enjoy those burgers and fries
>>47766333
>killing innocents
>not evil
>America
>not evil
Well, your country's foreign policy makes more sense.
>>47766297
>>47766267
Basically, the only reason you think evil exists is because it was beneficial for our species' survival for you to think that. Are you nothing more than a puppet to your evolutionary baggage? To how natural selection threw us together haphazardly?
Is it evil to wash my hands? To kill a fly? To run over countless ants? Notice how we only give a shit about stuff that looks like us?
Gee. It's like we're programmed to think that way. I bet a bird thinks it's "moral" to make a nest.
>>47766368
>>47766355
Go away Europa, You'll never be free like us.
>>47766368
>>47766355
Oh come off it no country or group of people on the planet doesn't live with blood on their hands. That's life.
>>47766354
How is "there is no box" a box to put people in? Other than the "We're just animals programmed to survive, and since we're better in groups, morals evolved out of necessity at the time" box?
>>47766305
Not the guy, but your argument is out of context with the discussion. We're comparing Rick's actions to his own moral code. The whole 'do unto others' thing. Not the killing of civilians as immoral in an absolute sense.
>>47766412
>doesn't live with blood on their hands.
Without, thanks autocorrect.
>>47766418
A person saying that they believe a certain thing doesn't mean they're beholden to it in all their actions. Lots of people compartmentalize that shit, it's a part of his character flaws.
>>47766412
>actively sabotaging foreign governments, killing innocents, causing strive, all to remain in control and to gain profits
enjoy
the
fries
Which episode does Rick implicitly kill civilians? none that I can remember, ep1 they run from the cops who the Spartans shooting, Amish purge planet attacked by blood thirsty crowds.
Rick uses violence as a last resort to preserve his freedom, while not really a good act it's not implicitly evil to kill, hence why did has a middle ground of neutral and isn't black and white.
>>47762870
It sorta seems like it devolves into the second season, but from the start of the first season everything Rick is doing is to try and benefit the growth of humankind. It's just he's become such a jaded, drunken asshole he doesn't really care about anybody, he's just on his mission and fuck everyone else (but not Beth). He doesn't seem to be helping that many people in season 2.
So... Chaotic Good (Drunk)?
>>47766452
They may not be beholden to it, but it doesn't make it less wrong according to their own moral code. I can think stealing is wrong and still steal, I can even continue to think of myself as a good person. That doesn't mean I am. Likewise Rick thinks imposing your morals / authority / will upon unwilling third parties is evil and should be combatted, yet his actions are often evil according his moral code from the point of view of the third party.
>>47766412
>make claim to be the best, most amazing nation in the world, a paragon of morality that needs to spread its ideals all over the world for the good of mankind
>have that as literally your founding creed
>get caught blowing up innocent civilians and destabilising governments
>WELL EVERYONE DOES IT
>still claim you have the moral right to be superior
>>47766531
There's no such thing as absolute righteousness, so there is no objective good or evil. Just opinions.
>>47766515
>but from the start of the first season everything Rick is doing is to try and benefit the growth of humankind
That's pretty bullshit
>>47765316
>God and angels don't follow laws, they do what is objectively good.
In the Abrahamic setting, it is objectively good because might really does make right when you're talking about the almighty. If you try to debate him on the morality of sodomy he just turns you into a burning pillar of salt, wipes away your culture and their entire body of earthly accomplishments in a rain of sulfur, and smites everyone who watched the exchange with boils, all because he doesn't like faggots.
>>47766572
No i know and accept it. There's a cost for everything. We all use products that involve slave labor, all of our countries have slaughtered countless innocents, humanity is just dogshit, that's all.
Is it the HFY people who want to believe in some ideal humanity that doesn't exist? One where only good people exist?
>>47765695
>which is why you don't pick up every stranger you see hitchhiking.
If you're honestly this heartless about your fellow man then there is no explanation you will ever accept for morality. You win the argument. Congrats, I guess.
>>47766601
Oh I see the problem here. You're evil, but don't want to be called evil. It all makes sense.
>I'd own slaves and have no problem with killing innocent people, b-but don't call me evil guys it hurts my feelings.
>>47766601
>No i know and accept it. There's a cost for everything. We all use products that involve slave labor, all of our countries have slaughtered countless innocents, humanity is just dogshit, that's all.
>>47766601
>humanity is just dogshit
You tell yourself this to evade guilt. Just own up to being worse than most of humanity.
>>47764682
Look where trying to do good got them. In that same episode morty's moralizing got 1,000's injured/killed
>>47766639
So nothing you own came from slave labor?
No cell phone?
>>47763948
>Plane of Law
The entire plane is one big game of Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney.
>>47766616
>why you don't pick up every stranger you see hitchhiking.
Because I'm not fond of meth-addled degenerate layabouts threatening to slitting my throat before stealing my wallet and truck, before they slit my throat anyway?
Because it's illegal to have your gun within arm's reach while driving?
>>47766665
And what about your parents HMM??? I BET THOSE EVIL FOLKS HAD THE AUDACITY TO *BUY* THINGS
>>47766601
You're running from the truth by exaggerating it. Every country does terrible things, or has done terrible things, or will do terrible things. People have always done terrible things and probably will never stop. But just because you're waist-deep in blood and shit doesn't mean your only option is to shrug and wait for someone to dump more on your head.
>>47766584
I know, that was already stated. Rick is evil according to his own definition of evil.
In D&D sense he's absolutely CE, but I'm pretty sure that was mostly agreed upon already. Seeing as D&D actually has defined absolute morality.
>>47766639
The truth of this forsaken universe is that reality sucks for humans. We eternally hunger for stuff that is always difficult to achieve, and when we get too much the good becomes bad.
However, to bow to the reality of the world's shittiness is absolute weakness on his part. We are human because we can change the world around us in ways unrivaled by anything in this planet. Is that amazing? Not really. Should you care? FUCK NO
>>47766386
>Basically, the only reason you think evil exists is because it was beneficial for our species' survival for you to think that.
I won't pretend there's a God or a devil, or any such nonsense. That's not what my life is about. And in a way, you're right, this probably did come about because cooperation benefits survival. There is no intrinsic meaning to the universe other than that in which we give it.
This has lead me to believe that, in lieu of extraterrestrial life, all we have, and all we ever really have, is each other. We're social creatures, and no matter how much we rail against our nature, we all need each other.
And if nothing matters, than what is the point in needlessly hurting hurting or killing each other. Why should we value conceptual and imaginary things over the only other creatures that we can be sure are real and, though different, is actually capable of understanding our shared experience?
It's not giving into programming, it's making a choice about the kind of world I want to be a part of, because the only way to absolutely make sure we aren't being influenced by our biological needs and urges is to just off ourselves, as even isolating ourselves and disregarding human contact is still going to end with our urges and needs influencing us, albeit negatively. How is it that any better?
Maybe good and evil are a product of our evolutionary path, which has made us all too aware of it, but that doesn't invalidate them in the least. If anything it bolsters it, because we are not slaves to some outside force imposing it's will on our lives, but it's a choice we make to achieve our own goals and dreams, and we actively benefit, not just as a group, but individually from helping one and other and being "good" to each other.
I see nothing wrong with that.
Takes some fucking responsibility for yourself and what you do, coward.
>>47763490
it's a fair point though. DnD alignment doesn't really map well to real life or a lot of other fiction.
>>47766386
That's a lot of words justifying your chronic virginity. You tip your hand too deeply, and cannot hide the root of your position.
>>47766477
He destroyed two universe. Also it's been a consequence of some his actions, as with the love potion episode.
Also bird person talked a little about how many innocents had die as a result of the things he and Rick have done.
>>47766649
That's true, which means sometimes doing the right thing isn't always the right thing, and it can be so very hard to tell until you reap the consequences. Which is what Morty had to do.
It's part of what makes doing the right thing so difficult.
>>47766477
he destroyed an entire (primitive)civilization in the microverse episode. Sure he wasn't the one that took a hammer to it, but he was the cause.
>>47767022
He literally picked up the Mini-Verse and threw it on the ground, destroying it and killing everyone inside it, and the Teeny-Verse inside it.
He actively murdered two universes to spite his Micro-Verse counterpart.
>>47765558
~8 billion is not "virtually infinite". It's not even "remotely close to infinite".
You would think /tg/ would know a little about the basics of mathematics, but apparently not.
>>47767222
Let's just be real. Math is hard.
>>47762870
I don't think anyone who gets buffed up for the sole purpose of beating up Satan is really that evil.
>>47765589
Nihilism is rooted int he belief that life is meaningless.
>>47763504
>Not wanting an entire afternoon at Blips and Chitz
You're the evil one
>>47767264
That's the thing about bullying Satan. It never looks bad because it's literally Satan.
>>47767556
As evidenced by the fact that C-137 Rick and Morty had a good time and Mr. Poopy Butthole-Universe Rick and Morty had to deal with Fart.
>>47766963
Xenocide is a glory though; Rick is a radical xenos =][= didn't you know?
He is currently on the run from conclave through space and time, them and their damn galatic government.
>>47766333
>The real world. Ever hear of civilian casualties? Every time a drone flies it happens. Are we an evil nation?
Uh, yes, dumbass. Point out a nation that ISN'T evil.
>>47767274
"I am a nihilist! Watch me nihilize! Aahhh!"
>>47766624
>>47766639
Not the guy you're talking at, but presumably you're posting to this board on a device that can use the Internet?
Then you're taking advantage of and benefiting from slave labor.
>>47762870
Pic related is the only correct answer.
>>47768441
The greatest evil, in this universe and all others, is that choice of font and color.
Any moral relativists posting in the thread that have neither conclusively proven the existence of travel between infinite universes or proven that there is no idea so bad or so good that everyone ever would agree it was evil or good, then you need to understand you are just voicing your belief, not fact.
>>47768480
Because it's hard to read or because it's ugly?
>>47768514
Yes.
>>47765376
This realization is about when Rick starts to change.
>>47768497
Evil is a fact?
Please tell me the measure of evil, how many bad boy points do I need to be clad levels of evil?
>>47768683
I said that "evil is not a fact" is not a fact.
One can believe evil is not a fact, but without proof, it's still just a belief.
>>47763050
He enslaved a whole universe.
Just think about that for a moment.
>>47768747
It's not slavery! They do things and buy stuff!
>>47768764
Free-range slavery.
You can have fun from time to time and acquire goods, but when asked "what do you do?" and you reply with your current profession, you're a slave, as you let the job you're doing define your existence.
This entire thread is the reason why Rick is a fantastic CE character.
>engage wholesale in murder, slavery, assault and theft
>do one or two neutral or good things
>Ha ha I can't be evil!
>>47768441
Essentially, he's bizarro doctor who.
>>47768251
No, I'm taking advantage of and benefiting from underpaid and overworked factory workers. It's shoes that are usually more responsible for the whole slave labor shit, and I avoid brands known to be associated with that.
>>47768709
And one can believe evil is a fact, but without proof, it's ALSO still just a belief.
We're all just on two sides of a fence that, paradoxically, leaves us all in the same yard.
>>47768852
With that definition of slavery, 80% of anyone with a job is a slave.
I mean, I'm not going to actually disagree with that assessment, just point it out.
>>47770487
That's the point. People are slaves.
Free-range slaves.
They can have "their houses" (owned by bank on a 30 billion years mortgage)
"their car" (provided by the slave-master aka employer)
Everyone with a job they dislike is a slave.
When job - earning money stops being a gateway to your passion, whatever that may be; building train models, vidya, sex tourism, sports, starts overriding your interests you're a slave.
You have money that you spend solely on not dying in order to continue working.
>>47769004
It's kind of similar to how I think Jack Sparrow makes a good CN character without being completely lolrandum.
Essentially they're pretty similar characters except Jacks good and evil deeds more or less balance out.
I mean, it's swingy, at any point he might be over one way or another, but generally Jack combines moments of sheer self-interest with moments of self-sacrifice, although with limits.
He wont ACTUALLY ever sacrifice himself to save another, although he might sacrifice personal freedom and prospective wealth.
>>47762870
> ctrl f anti-hero
> no results
I, for one, can't wait until the jackboots come out and the goosestepping starts.
Either I'm on their side and get to enjoy the benefits of rampant militarism, or I'm against them and I get to fuck up as many things as I want in the name of freedom from tyranny.
>>47763988
By your logic Hitler wasn't evil, Stalin wasn't evil, most serial killers aren't evil, who the fuck is evil by your logic?
>>47764686
That's not what that means...
When you encounter space, aliens, etc. there are two cognitive paths one can take: Dissonance ("Human's are still important, I still matter") or Acceptance ("My actions bear no consequence, we are a part of a cosmic machine").
The context for that quote says it all:
"Selling a gun to an assassin is as bad as pulling the trigger"
In a world where your actions matter, then yeah, that makes sense. That's a pre-space or 'Planetary' Mindset
In a world where they don't, then you cannot be held responsible for the consequences of your actions.
TLDR: A Planetary Mindset is one in which you are responsibile for the consequences of your actions. A Galactic Mindset is one in which you can only be held responsible for your own actions.
Pretty sure Bender could count as CE.
>>47766584
All our words are just made up, so they mean nothing.
>>47765571
>morty is also becoming a dick over time
how so? is this referencing the purge episode and perhaps the whole "so, first race war, huh?"
>>47770474
>We're all just on two sides of a fence that, paradoxically, leaves us all in the same yard
Except, that those proclaiming that there is no Good or Evil are standing in the yard shouting their beliefs with a false sense of superiority while others, like myself, are not.
>>47773097
>Morty becoming a dick
Well, there is the time he caused the Cronenburg-ing of the entire earth of his home dimension trying to "roofie" the girl he likes.
>You're a little creep Morty
>>47766355
>>47766368
Dune coons aren't people, therefor it isn't murder.
>>47770682
He's an anti-hero, but we're trying to determine his character alignment, scrub. Learn to read threads.
I would honestly argue that he's True Neutral.
>>47763308
>>47765085
Microverses, you fucktards
>>47764437
That's who I thought that was too.
>>47773087
Its not that the words mean nothing it just the only meaning they have is what we attached to them. Different languages have same words that mean different things. Same goes with Morality. He not saying good and evil dont exist, he saying that they are not objective or have any absolute meaning besides what we give them.
Rick is True Neutral. Anyone who claims he's Chaotic anything or Evil anything is just a part of the fascist galaxy thinking they're "the law".
>>47763541
What about Abe Lincler?
>>47765572
lol edgy as fuck kid
>>47780104
Aberdolf Lincler is the only true neutral being.
>>47780870
Or is he?
>>47766386
>Are you nothing more than a puppet to your evolutionary baggage?
So...are you going to starve yourself because you're biologically programmed to want to eat and apparently being a puppet to your evolutionary baggage is bad?
The only reason you're talking to people online is because of evolutionary programming to be social and care what others think.
Adolf Hitler wasn't Chaotic Evil, he was Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil. Therefore that wouldn't cancel out Adolf Lincoln's Lawful Good into True Neutral.
>>47780935
>The only reason you're talking to people online is because you care what others think.
Then what's up with all the shitposting, hatred, and arguing on /tg/?
>>47780950
If we were biologically programmed like other animals we literally would not care at all what anyone else thought or did so we would not even interact on the internet, let alone in real life. If we evolved from bears or snakes other asocial animals we wouldn't be here, we'd be doing our own thing without conversing except to yell GET OUT OF MY TERRITORY I'M DOING MY OWN THING or HEY YOU HAVE COMPATIBLE GENITALS WITH ME WE SHOULD FUCK AND THEN RUN AWAY FROM EACH OTHER. Talking to people and eating food is what we're programmed by evolution to care about as much as anything else.
>>47780936
Lincoln relied on a lot of political gamesmanship and hustling to pass some amendments and fight the Civil War, not to mention unconstitutionally suspended habeas corpus.
That gives us Neutral Evil vs. Neutral Good, which do cancel each other out.
>>47781003
>HEY YOU HAVE COMPATIBLE GENITALS WITH ME WE SHOULD FUCK AND THEN RUN AWAY FROM EACH OTHER
I bet this would work great as a pickup line.
>>47781020
>Lincoln relied on a lot of political gamesmanship and hustling to pass some amendments and fight the Civil War
Isn't this lawful though? Gaming the law system is still lawful because you went to the trouble rather than outright ignoring or breaking the law.
>>47780936
Abradolf Lincler was only supposed to be "a morally neutral super-leader" according to Rick, AKA, neutral on the good-evil spectrum. Didn't work in any case, as he just came out as a "lame weird loser."
>>47780054
>Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.
>"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient.
Hmm. The Chaotic fits, but the Evil is a bit of a stretch.
>People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.
That sounds closer, but I feel like he generally falls in between the two.
>A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn't strive to protect others' freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it.
Okay, maybe Rick is Chaotic Neutral, by D&D standards, because Chaotic Evil doesn't really fit him.
>A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force.
>>47781003
>>47781033
My wife and I are dying laughing after reading your post. She says that you need to put that on a t-shirt.
>>47781003
>HEY YOU HAVE COMPATIBLE GENITALS WITH ME WE SHOULD FUCK AND THEN RUN AWAY FROM EACH OTHER.
Hello, new Tinder line.
>>47781107
Put a bear as your profile pic.
>>47781049
except that it was shady backdoor shit which stretches the boundaries of what is legal, so not really. There's a limit to how far you can stretch the laws before they start to bleed.
>>47765198
He doesn't usually go out of his way to kill people, but he totally does kill people whenever convenient, and i'm pretty sure he has killed people just for the lulz.
>>47766589
The book of Job covers God's view on morality and God's Self-morality pretty well, imo, for being essentially a Biblival Platonic/Aristotlean play.
>J: God what have I done to deserve this?
>1+2: You must have been an asshole for him to do this
>J: I don't remember being an asshole
>3: God doesn't need a reason to do anything
>God: CLOSE. I HAVE A REASON FOR EVERYTHING, BUT FUCK YOU, I DON'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN SHIT TO YOU, CREATION OF MINE
>>47768217
Iceland.
If wiping out a universe so another universe will continue powering your car in something resembling slavery isn't a supremely evil act, then I don't really know what is.
>>47781457
Oo la la, somebody's gonna get laid in college.
He's Chaotic Evil, but definitely a good reason why every Chaotic Evil characters doesn't have to be the Joker.
I'm generally of the opinion that good and evil in the alignment term can exist on a spectrum beyond the three categories. So a person is an absolute saint and a dude that helps out at his neighborhood food drive are both likely "good". This means however that evil can range from hitler to "selfish dick".
Rick is closer to the Selfish dick side of things, but his selfishness and dickery has definitely had him commit evil acts. I would say that his chaotic side definitely defines him to a greater degree, but the guy is almost wholly unconcerned with who gets hurt as a result of his actions in a way that is undoubtedly chaotic evil.
Granted there's still the issue that Rick and Morty's multiverse is so nihilistic to a degree where it is debatable whether or not good or evil can truly be said to have a place in it, but from the perspective of a moral universe, one cannot casually destroy two universes with sentient beings living upon them and claim moral neutrality. (Particularly given that his intentions were as petty as, "continue having a planet of laborers continue to produce electricity for my car.")
Evil Rick/Morty picked out the main Rick because he was the second most evil.
>>47782077
Third most. The second guy was weird.
>>47781122
Good idea.
>>47782038
Well, to be fair, he threatened one, and what shis face destroyed the other. Honestly, if we take that out of the equation, he leans closer to chaotic neutral. Personally, I think he's chaotic neutral, with chaotic evil tendencies.
>>47766060
You really do.
I say yes.
To those arguing about his "love" for his family.
Do you really think that Chaotic Evil people can't love some people?
I could totally see two orcs, or two vampires falling in love. I don't see why "loving" automatically means that you are not evil.
>>47782651
No, Rick Smashed the Mini-Verse, which contained the Teeny-verse as soon as the three of them were out. He presumed Steven Colbert's character would have destroyed the universe with him in it, but he was horrified by Rick and called him a monster for what he had done.
He basically did it for no reason, other than to spite him, or even just ruin their source of infinite energy.
>>47781100
>>47762870
The first-person evidence we have plants Rick pretty strongly as CE; he may be CN due to backstory and whatnot not on the show, but by and large, it's Rick and his own vs. the world.
This is far from the only way to do it, but yes, you could totally play Rick and get away with it in a party that's morally loose, but intolerant of mustache-twirling.
...I'm pretty sure that's what the Squanchy/Bird-person/Rick trio is bUT ANYWAY
>>47762870
Yeah, he is. But since /tg/ is full of autists who want to argue for the sake of arguing you'll likely get this slew of dissent.
>>47762870
I'd say that Bender from Futurama is a better example.
Even when he shows affection for people, we see that's all purely about how they make HIM feel. If they left him and went to heaven, he would follow them there and deny them that just so he could have them around.
And even then, he still exploits them when convenient.
And both Zapp Brannigan and Monty Burns are classic Neutral and Lawful Evil.
>>47763790
>Wasn't his own justification that the hitman would get the gun anyway, no matter if he did anything or not? That sounds neutral to me - he's not against or for the consequences of his actions. He doesn't want the target's death per se, but he doesnt' care to stop it.
You're right, anon. I'm going to start selling guns to cartels, ISIS, and gangs. I mean, they'll get guns anyway, so it's not like I'm really hurting anyone.
>>47765241
>he's not bloodthirsty either, as shown in the purge episode where he at first wanted to watch the purge for entertainment, but quickly realized that it wasn't something a person watches for entertainment.
Hey Anon, want to go to Syria or Iraq and watch civilians get brutally slaughtered for shits and giggles?
Why are you looking at me like that? It's not bloodthirsty! It's perfectly fine!
>>47781003
>GET OUT OF MY TERRITORY I'M DOING MY OWN THING or HEY YOU HAVE COMPATIBLE GENITALS WITH ME WE SHOULD FUCK AND THEN RUN AWAY FROM EACH OTHER
This is the best thing to come out of an alignment thread.
>>47763002
Yeah, he cares so much about his family that while manipulatively allowing his daughter with abandonment issues- which he caused- to let him walk all over her, he drags her son, his grandson, a child, around the universe into countless horrifically dangerous situations- which in many universes gets said grandson killed, obviously- just so he can use Morty as a picnic shield against his plethora of enemies, including many governments who want him for treason and murder charges and will shoot him and anyone with him on sight.
Yeah, Rick's swell.
