>Previous Thread: >>47641808
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>Question
Why not run a plane-hopping adventure using all the new planes of existence, Emanation Realms, and Irises in Mage 2e?
>>47660496
Goddamn Moros.
Would Doctor Thrax from C&C Generals: Zero Hour be a Moros with Life or a Thyrsus with Matter?
Let us break Fate 2's Exceptional Luck and show just how badly it and Fate's entire "hex"/"boon" subsystem need to be revised by the upcoming errata and/or FAQ. We can use it to gain tremendous bonuses to important rolls as a reflexive action, costing 0 Mana and 0 Willpower.
According to DaveB in recent /tg/ threads:
1. Fate 1's Quantum Flux should not work on spellcasting: >>47571191
2. Fate 2's Exceptional Luck costs Mana in order for it to grant a bonus beyond +5: >>47579868
3. If you are casting magic under time constraints and/or pressure and fail, you take a cumulative -1 penalty on subsequent attempts. If you are under neither time constraints nor pressure, you must use the "down and dirty spellcasting" rules, which prevents you from using Yantra bonuses or spell factors: >>47572307, >>47571978, >>47572307, and >>47578204
Page 111 of Mage 2e says, "The penalties to spellcasting can exceed the normal –5 penalty cap to dice pools. In cases where the penalty would reduce the dice pool beyond 0 — and thereby a chance die — by an additional –5 even after including bonuses from Yantras, the spell is too complex for the mage to cast and it automatically fails." This should not be an issue if the final pool is -5.
As per page 115, an exceptional success on a spellcasting roll can recharge 1 Willpower, refund all Mana spent on the spell, and regain 1 Mana on top of that.
The rule concerning spell stacking in page 118 concerns "multiple spells [affecting] the same aspect of the character," which does not prevent a single spell from buffing the dice pool for the same spell about to be recast.
Page 119 tells us that "a mage can draw upon one Yantra as a reflexive action when casting a spell."
>>47660601
According to page 134, a single hex/boon can have its Potency split up to cover multiple effects. However, this is still a single hex, just like the example with "a Potency 4 hex allows the mage to levy a penalty on the subject's next two actions, as well as apply the Blinded and Leg Wrack Tilts" shows us. Likewise, "boons that affect the same skill do not combine their effects (only the highest bonus counts)," but this should not be a problem if we are relying on only one boon and are not actually trying to stack numerical bonuses together.
Page 213 states that a Willpower point can be spent once per action.
This trick requires a minimum of Gnosis 3 and Fate 2, and a Rote for Fate 2's Exceptional Luck. Since we are pushing this to the limit, however, let us assume a 0 XP mage with Gnosis 3, Fate 3, a Rote for Fate 2's Exceptional Luck, 5 dots in that Rote's Skill (let us call this the Rote Skill from henceforth), and an Order specialty in the Rote Skill.
Let us get to work during a scene with time constraints and/or pressure.
Step #1: Cast Exceptional Luck with a Mudra Yantra. Two Reaches for casting it as a reflexive action for 1 Mana, and two Reaches to have it affect spellcasting. -4 spell factor for +2 Potency.
Dice pool: Gnosis 3 + Fate 3 + Mudra 6 - spell factors 4 = 8, for a ~96% chance of success.
Result: Potency 5 Exceptional Luck lasting for a turn. Allocated to 9-again or chance-die-to-regular-die to the next dice roll, a +2 dice bonus to the next two actions using Rote Skill, Informed (Rote Skill), and Steadfast.
>>47660607
Step #2: Cast Exceptional Luck with a Mudra Yantra. Two Reaches for casting it as a reflexive action for 1 Mana, and two Reaches to have it affect spellcasting. Spend Willpower. -22 spell factor for +11 Potency, spending 1 Mana for that as well.
Dice pool: Gnosis 3 + Fate 3 + Mudra 6 + previous Exceptional Luck 2 + Willpower 3 - spell factors 22 = -5. This becomes a regular die roll with the previous Exceptional Luck's boon, which then becomes an automatic success as Steadfast resolves itself, which then becomes an exceptional success as Informed (Rote Skill) resolves itself.
The exceptional success restores 1 Willpower, waives the Mana costs for this casting, and replenishes 1 Mana, which means that the character has recouped all Mana and Willpower expenditures.
Result: Potency 14 Exceptional Luck lasting for a turn. This can be allocated to whatever we wish, although thanks to having spent 2 Reaches, it always affects spellcasting rolls.
Dismiss the previous Exceptional Luck as a reflexive action.
So, as a reflexive action costing 0 Mana and 0 Willpower, we have managed to throw up a Potency 14 Exceptional Luck, which we can use to gain all manner of dice bonuses and Conditions, lasting for a turn.
Since we spent +2 Reach, this does apply to spellcasting, meaning we can perform the same trick with a Rote for an automatic exceptional success despite taking -30 or so of spell factors. (Sadly, it will have to be a spell that does not cost Mana, as we are at our Mana/turn limit.)
However, as a variant, we can perform this trick as a self-repeating (though not infinite) loop. Suppose the scene we are in is under time constraints and/or pressure, but with enough leeway to give us several turns of preparation time. What can we do in a span of two turns (six seconds)?
>>47660613
Step #1 (turn one): Cast Exceptional Luck with a Mudra Yantra. Two Reaches for casting it as a reflexive action for 1 Mana, and two Reaches to have it affect spellcasting. -4 spell factor for +2 Potency.
Dice pool: Gnosis 3 + Fate 3 + Mudra 6 - spell factor 4 = 8.
Result: Potency 5 Exceptional Luck lasting for a turn. Allocated to 9-again or chance-die-to-regular-die to the next dice roll, a +2 dice bonus to the next two actions using Rote Skill, Informed (Rote Skill), and Steadfast.
Step #2 (turn one): Cast Exceptional Luck with a Mudra Yantra. Two Reaches for casting it as a reflexive action for 1 Mana, and two Reaches to have it affect spellcasting. Spend Willpower. -22 spell factor for +10 Potency and +1 Duration (two turns), spending 1 Mana.
Dice pool: Gnosis 3 + Fate 3 + Mudra 6 + previous Exceptional Luck 2 + Willpower 3 - spell factors 22 = -5. Automatic exceptional success, recharge Willpower/Mana.
Result: Potency 13 Exceptional Luck lasting for two turns. Allocated to 9-again or chance-die-to-regular-die to the next dice roll, a +10 dice bonus to the next twelve actions using Rote Skill, Informed (Rote Skill), and Steadfast.
Dismiss the previous Exceptional Luck as a reflexive action.
Step #3 (turn one): A no-Mana instant action.
Step #4 (turn two): Cast Exceptional Luck with a Mudra Yantra. Two Reaches for casting it as a reflexive action for 1 Mana, and two Reaches to have it affect spellcasting. Spend Willpower. -30 spell factor for +14 Potency and +1 Duration (two turns), spending 1 Mana.
Dice Pool: Gnosis 3 + Fate 3 + Mudra 6 + previous Exceptional Luck 10 + Willpower 3 - spell factors 30 = -5. Automatic exceptional success, recharge Willpower/Mana.
Result: Potency 17 Exceptional Luck lasting for two turns. Allocated to 9-again or chance-die-to-regular-die to the next dice roll, a +14 dice bonus to the next twelve actions using Rote Skill, Informed (Rote Skill), and Steadfast.
Dismiss the previous Exceptional Luck as a reflexive action.
>>47660616
Step #5 (turn two): Cast Exceptional Luck with a Mudra Yantra. One Reach for instant action casting, two Reaches to have it affect spellcasting, and one Reach for Advanced Duration. Spend Willpower. -34 spell factor for +17 Potency, spending 1 Mana.
Dice Pool: Gnosis 3 + Fate 3 + Mudra 6 + previous Exceptional Luck 14 + Willpower 3 - spell factors 34 = -5. Automatic exceptional success, recharge Willpower/Mana.
Result: Potency 20 Exceptional Luck lasting for an *hour*. This can be allocated to whatever pleases us, and remember, it affects spellcasting.
Dismiss the previous Exceptional Luck as a reflexive action.
With a few more turns for preparation time, we can push this higher and higher until we can hit Potency somewhere in the mid-20s.
Exceptional Luck and the "hex"/"boon" subsystem need to be revised as part of the errata and/or FAQ.
>Trying to run Vanilla flavor VtM
>Drafting shit-tons of vampires and mortals with zig zagging agendas
>Resisting the urge to shit things up with wizards and woofmen
What's the appropriate degree of Lupines and Magi to include in a Vampite chronicle before it becomes crossover shit. One-and-dones to keep them on their toes?
>>47660601
>>47660607
>>47660613
>>47660616
I guess that asking a question about converting Command and Conquer characters to CofD was pretty pointless, huh?
>>47660601
>>47660607
>>47660613
>>47660616
>>47660623
Help me! I'm drowning in jargon!
>Wisdom represents the control a mage has over her magic.
Can you boost dice pools related to Wisdom with Prime?
>>47660718
Why?
>>47660730
Because it doesn't fit under its purview?
>>47660637
Moros, probably even without Life. You don't need it to create poisonous chemical agents.
>>47660737
>Prime
>Purview: Magic, the Supernal World, Nimbus, truth, Yantras, Mana, Hallows, tass, resonance, revelation
>Purview: Magic
>>47660576
I'd say Thyrsus would be more thematic.
>>47660613
>>47660616
>>47660623
P.S. This latter multi-turn variant is also ideal for recharging Mana and Willpower; a character can go from low Mana and no Willpower to full Mana and full Willpower.
>>47660576
>>47660637
"Disease" falls squarely within the purview of Life. There are multiple ways to go about this: a Thyrsus with a Matter Legacy who crafts biological warfare materials, a Thyrsus with a Prime Legacy or an Obrimos with a Life Legacy who imbues items with Life disiease spells, or a Moros with a Life Legacy who compliments disease with the "enervation" purview of Death and the alchemy of Matter.
>>47660702
Seeing how Fate's boons (e.g. via Exceptional Luck) can directly boost rolls to prevent Wisdom degeneration and rolls to help contain Paradox, and how Time 2's Veil of Moments somehow staves off Paradox Conditions, it does not seem unthinkable that Prime could be used to affect Wisdom- and Paradox-related rolls.
Prime certainly needs all the help it can get in making the most of its purview elements (of which "truths" is probably the most powerful), given its relatively underwhelming state.
>>47660751
Wisdom isn't Magic.
Plus Prime can't control Magic like other spells can.
If it could, it could hijack someone's spells with Ruling, and modify them with Patterning.
>>47660782
Wisdom is control over Magic, so technically Ruling or Patterning of Prime should be able to affect Wisdom. But I -think- that there was a caveat that you can't save yourself from Wisdom degeneration via magical means, like you could in 1e. So if I'm not mistaken, we're shit outta luck.
>>47660812
Wisdom is your own control over your Magic.
You can have the strongest, greatest, most intricate spell in the world, and fuck up horribly because you're the most unWise person alive.
You can touch that Magic, fuck with it, hang it up in a time-bubble to throw at someone later, or wind it up into a ball and throw it back into the Supernal.
But you can't use your influence over Magic to enhance your control over it. Because Wisdom isn't Magic.
Also it'd be overpowered as fuck and defeat the purpose of Wisdom.
>>47660855
>Also it'd be overpowered as fuck and defeat the purpose of Wisdom.
Which is exactly what Fate 2's Exception Luck can already accomplish through a simple boon.
>Grant a dice bonus equal to Potency on certain actions (usually a single Skill) for a number of rolls equal to the Potency of the spell during its Duration. Multiple boons cannot grant their bonus to the same action; only the highest bonus counts. The subject’s player chooses which of his rolls are affected by this boon before rolling the dice.
>>47660873
Checking for Degeneration isn't an action. It's a roll.
>>47660601
>>47660607
>>47660613
>>47660616
>>47660623
There is a point to be made here regarding Informed specifically applying to "Skill rolls." However:
1. There is no actual definition of "Skill roll" anywhere in the Chronicles of Darkness core rulebook or Mage 2e. As far as I can tell, if a roll brings in a Skill in some fashion, then it is a Skill roll.
2. We are spending +2 Reach to force the boon to affect spellcasting anyway.
3. Fate's hexes/boons allow you to craft custom Conditions, so you could feasibly craft a Condition that duplicates Informed but applies to a single Arcanum (page 289 gives an example of a Condition that grants a -5 to +5 modifier to an Arcanum, which means that directly Arcanum-modifying Conditions are possible). After all, the third bullet point of boons says, "Grant a number of beneficial Conditions (such as Charmed, Informed, Inspired, or Steadfast)," which means those Conditions do not comprise an exhaustive list.
>>47660920
I will concede that halfway. It seems the RAW here is murky. On one hand:
>Note that the dice pool depends on the action; it doesn’t depend on the mage’s Wisdom.
On the other hand, since an Act of Hubris itself is an action that can involve its own dice roll (e.g. firing a gun or casting a spell), it could be said that the degeneration is a separate and discrete process, which is not an action.
The first reading treats degeneration as an action eligible for a Fate boon's raw bonus option, while the second does not.
However, what *does* work regardless of the above is using a Fate boon to gain the Steadfast Condition.
>STEADFAST
>Your character is confident and resolved. When you’ve failed a roll, you may choose to resolve this Condition to instead treat the action as if you’d rolled a single success. If the roll is a chance die, you may choose to resolve this Condition and roll a single regular die instead.
>Resolution: Your character’s confidence carries him through and the worst is avoided; the Condition is resolved as described above.
>Beat: n/a
This does not require an action, and so should work with a degeneration roll or a roll to contain Paradox.
>>47660922
Also:
4. The Shadow Name Merit in page 104 of Mage 2e specifically mentions "mundane skill rolls," which means there can be magical skill rolls.
>>47661020
Yep... That'd do it.
However thankfully it's also available to Mind and other such condition-granting Arcana, if you're inclined to permit it...
And to ice off this disgusting cheesecake, in doing do, you get an Arcane beat from having tested the limits of your hubris.
>>47661070
Page 126 tells us:
>Ruling (••) spells can create most non-Persistent, mundane Conditions.
Likewise, one of the options in page 115 for an exceptional success on spellcasting is:
>A Condition which will give Arcane Beats when resolved, on either the mage or her subject.
Thus, it behooves any mage to prepare for Acts of Hubris by casting a spell in such a way to grant them the Steadfast condition.
Since Acts of Hubris can be mundane, "self-mutilating acts" risk degeneration at Wisdom 4-7, and there is no scene-based limit on the amount of Arcane Experiences that can be gained from risking degeneration; a mage could make themselves Steadfast, mutilate their own bodies/minds/destinies (mutilating destinies is mentioned in page 20), risk degeneration, automatically succeed, reap an Arcane Beat from it, heal up, and repeat the process.
This is surely not working as intended, is it?
>>47661202
Also, if the spell to create the Steadfast Condition was an exceptional success, you gain a Beat from that the first time during the scene you resolve it anyway.
Acts of Hubris are merely riskless learning experiences for a canny mage.
>>47661020
>you may choose to resolve this Condition to instead treat the action as if you’d rolled a single success
>treat the action
>action
I thought that in this very same post you admitted that:
>degeneration is a separate and discrete process, which is not an action
>>47661268
We are running into even murkier RAW in that case, because the trigger for Steadfast is "When you've failed a roll," which does not require an action, yet it then goes on to talk about "the action" as if all rolls stem from an action.
I truly would not know what would occur if Steadfast was to be applied to a roll whose status as "an action" is ambiguous.
>>47661268
Read that post you're quoting again. Two different interpretations.
>>47661268
>>47661283
>>47661292
Further reading into "actions" tells me that some rolls provoke "reflexive actions" even without explicitly stating such. Page 21 of the core Chronicles of Darkness rulebook says:
>reflexive action — An instinctual task that takes no appreciable time, such as reacting to surprise or noticing something out of the corner of your eye. Performing a reflexive action does not prevent a character from performing another action within a turn.
>Resistance — Characters can resist others’ attempts to socially sway them, physically grapple them or even mentally dominate them. Whenever applying such resistance requires a character’s full attention, it is performed as a contested action, but more often it is a reflexive action, allowing the target to also perform an action that turn.
Resisting something seems to always use an action, so every single ability that provokes a resistance roll is forcing the target to use a reflexive action, even if the ability itself does not mention a reflexive action.
Whether or not this applies to degeneration rolls is still vague, and whether or not the Steadfast Condition can only be triggered by an "action" is even more nebulous.
>>47660601
>>47660607
>>47660613
>>47660616
>>47660623
Stemming from all of this, I have an inkling that it might just be possible to create an infinite loop using a Rote for Fate 2's Exceptional Luck and a Rote for Mind 3's Enhance Skill. Such would entail constantly raising the Potency for both Exceptional Luck and Enhance Skill while skirting around any Mana costs through exceptional successes, in such a way as to gain arbitrarily high bonuses from Exceptional Luck while boosting a single Skill arbitrarily high as well.
Fate truly seems like the least carefully-written out of the Arcana.
Is it just me, or is Mind 3 absurdly broken because of Summon Goetia?
Fighting some werewolves? Summon Father Wolf from the Temenos, and watch as hilarity ensues!
Dealing with some mortal Hunters? Summon Yukari Yakumo, and get her to send them to Gensokyo! Even if she's only Rank 3, that's still enough for Influence (Boundaries) 3, which is still enough for her to do the ridiculous bullshit she's capable of in Touhou canon.
And that's leaving aside things like summoning Iron Man and getting him to build you some power armor, or summoning Darth Vader and getting him to build you a lightsaber or some sentient robots.
>>47661828
Anything related to ghosts, Goetia, or spirits in Mage 2e is far more "mother may I?" than any other spell, because you are limited to working with whatever the ST gives you. I have covered this with respect to the Spirit Arcanum here: >>47624996
Mind 3's Goetic Summons is an analogue for Spirit 3's Spirit Summons, with arguably greater restrictions. Goetia natively dwell in the Astral Realms as per pages 247-249 of Mage 2e, and unlike spirits, they have no easy means of reaching the Fallen World. It is a very rare occurrence to simply have Goetia in the vicinity in Twilight, so a Mind mage will have to turn to summoning Goetia from "a place from which she could meditate into the Astral."
Even if a mage is in such a place, they have to spend +1 Reach for Goetia from their own mind (which is limited in the Goetia it can produce), and +2 Reach for Goetia from the general "collective consciousness." This costs Mana unlike Spirit Summons, and the precise statistics of any given Goetia are purely up for the ST to decide; even if you do receive a Goetia of character from popular culture, there is no guarantee it will have appreciable raw numbers to back itself up.
The +1/+2/+3 Reach option for Goetic Summons is unclear on how it interacts with Astral Adept, seeing how it specifically calls for "a place," but even if it did work with that Merit, 3 Experiences is a large price in a game wherein Arcana cost only 4 Experiences and Gnosis is priced at merely 5.
>>47661828
It's "balanced" by the rules for mundane powered armor utterly lacking. It was discussed at length last thread.
Also Father Wolf from the temenos (or, probably, Dreamtime) would probably side with the werewolves. You're a lot better off summoning the Loyal Guard-Dog goetia.
In 1e, goetia summons were harder than relevant spirit equivalents and you couldn't have them affecting the real world for the most part without conjunctional Spirit 3 to weave them an ephemeral body.
In 2e -- not so much.
touhoufag is the mage of Mage; he bends reality over his knee like a toy but when the creators of reality notice they shut down everything
>>47661945
>In 1e, goetia summons were harder than relevant spirit equivalents and you couldn't have them affecting the real world for the most part without conjunctional Spirit 3 to weave them an ephemeral body.
This was not the case. Page 51 of 1e Summoners page gave the Mind Arcanum (the single most overpowered Arcanum of 1e by a wide stretch) a copy of all Spirit spells for the purpose of Astral entities: "Lastly, while Astral summonings may be, mechanically, identical to spirits, they are not affected by the Spirit Arcanum. Instead, a mage who wishes to control, bind, or otherwise influence such an entity substitutes the Mind Arcanum at an equivalent dot level."
>In 2e -- not so much.
Now *this* is rather murky territory. A large portion of the spells of Spirit contain an "Add Death X or Mind X to affect ghosts or Goetia respectively" provision, which seems to imply that such ghost/Goetia-affecting spells require Spirit and either Death or Mind.
However, ghosts fall well within Death's purview, and Mind likewise has "Goetia" as a purview element, so why would Death and Mind *not* be able to cast ghost/Goetia-specific versions of various Spirit spells? Indeed, they do have some spells for exactly such things.
Truly, this is confusing. The most sensible interpretation I can come up with is that Spirit contains many "Add Death X or Mind X" upgrades so as to allow a Spirit mage to cast spells that simultaneously affect ghosts, Goetia, and spirits so as to be kinder on the action economy and on spell control slots.
>>47662025
Didn't you need shrines of resonant objects to summon Archetypes and the like?
I might be misremembering things.
I will have to sleep very soon.
>>47661828
>>47661917
>>47662025
Depending on how daimons (from pages 92-96 of 1e Astral Realms) are translated into Mage 2e, they could quite possibly be the best option for Goetic Summons. They dwell in the Oneiros, and they have duplicates of the mage's own Arcana and can use them... but not to affect anything outside of Astral Space.
If Mage 2e lets a daimon summoned into the Fallen World use its Arcana to affect the Fallen World, then a mage could summon their own daimon to gain their very own spellcasting partner with their own actions each turn. If not, then too bad.
>>47662082
I do not recall such a stipulation from 1e Summoners.
Let us revisit an old spell: Space 3's Ban. DaveB has confirmed here >>47571888 that Ban is *supposed* to be able to perfectly entrap any target without world-walking abilities, no Withstand allowed.
>Ban (Space •••)
>Practice: Weaving
>Primary Factor: Duration
>Suggested Rote Skills: Intimidation, Science, Stealth
>By means of this spell, the mage inverts an area of space, such that nothing inside the space can get out and nothing outside the space can get in. Try to step in and you find yourself on the far side, carried in a single step. Try to get out and you’re just stepping right back in again. Magic that manipulates space, like a teleportation power or the ability to step from one world to another, provokes a Clash of Wills to allow ingress or egress.
>Even light and air can’t pass through: From the outside, the space appears to “lens” as the observer approaches it, as light jumps directly across the Ban. From inside, it’s an island of light in a vast sea of darkness.
>Add Any Arcanum ••: Either exclude one or more phenomena under the Arcanum’s purview from the spell (for example, to let air or light through) or create a Ban that only prohibits phenomena under that Arcanum’s purview.
>Since We Know You’re Thinking It…
>The average adult human being at rest consumes about one cubic foot of breathable air every four minutes. Have fun.
However, is there anything stopping the spell from simply bisecting someone in half, no Withstand allowed either? That probably should not be the case.
>>47661945
>It's "balanced" by the rules for mundane powered armor utterly lacking. It was discussed at length last thread.
There were rules for it in 1e's Armory: Reloaded book. I don't think they'd be very difficult to port. Judging by the tables in the corebooks, you just add on a point of the relevant armor type (Ballistic for modern armors, General for archaic armors) to the 1e stuff for a 2e statblock.
So, a suit of power armor using 2e rules would be Rating 5/9, Strength 2, Defense -3, Speed -5, Cost N/A, completely negates all damage from small arms fire (Damage + AP less than eight), -2 to Initiative, -4 to Brawl and Weaponry rolls, -3 penalty to all actions if using a suit not personally tailored for the character.
Why is this general getting so rulesy in the past 8 days?
>>47662420
Because 2hu
>>47662348
>However, is there anything stopping the spell from simply bisecting someone in half, no Withstand allowed either? That probably should not be the case.
Supernal magical logic: you can't target half of an object. Each person is their own Supernal "thing" in their own right, not just a collection of molecules.
>>47662112
>Depending on how daimons (from pages 92-96 of 1e Astral Realms) are translated into Mage 2e, they could quite possibly be the best option for Goetic Summons.
Or you could summon Yukari Yakumo, and she uses Influence (Boundaries) 3 to control the boundary between Past and Present to turn back time, to control the boundary between Reality and Fantasy to send people to Gensokyo (or any other fictional realm, for that matter) or to turn a series of events the Mage has experienced into just a dream they had, between Life and Death to bring the dead back to life, et cetera. Sure, it might cost her three Essence each time she does, but given how OP her conceptual abilities are, that's probably more than worth it for whatever Mage that summoned her.
>>47662420
Because a new edition of Mage came out, and it's always been easily the most mechanically involved WoD game around.
>>47662420
Autism mostly.
Based on some comments from the last thread:
The ultimate problem with "If the ST is good and/or a real man, they will know to reject this thing" is that sometimes you just don't know until it's too late. Normally this can be resolved in a session or two, but sometimes these problems don't show up until well into the campaign. Players fall ass backwards into busted builds, the ST didn't eyeball the wording of that one rule so well. The social net can be a great balancing tool for a game, but when it fails, it can fail spectacularly, especially in less socially tight/healthy groups.
OPP games assume a strong social net as a second balancing filter. That's how it's been since nearly the very beginnng. It's not going to change. 90% of the time, it works. But that doesn't make the people who notice certain rules imbalances invalid. It doesn't mean that the rules have to be hyperspecific either. Rules are blueprints. Even the most detailed blueprint may have errors that can be smoothed out through the skill of the builder, but should make as precise blueprints as they can, because the builder could be a hardened construction worker or a weekend warrior trying to build a grill.
>>47662452
You're affecting space , not objects, so that logic doesn't work.
>>47662811
"Space" in the Supernal sense is not the same as "Space" in the sense that Fallen Physics treats it. Supernal Space isn't a medium, its the measurement of the relationship between things. A being in the Supernal sense is a symbol, and you can't use a Space symbol to "bisect" a Matter or Life symbol.
>>47662348
Even if we assume you were able to manipulate the effect to bisect something, which as >>47662452 says can't be done trivially, ban describes its boundary as a warp, rather than a forcefield. It stretches space impossibly thin around the boundary rather than severing it.
Resultingly, bisecting an object with this would never do any permanent damage intrinsically, though would nonetheless probably do horrible fucking things to a person.
However, we gain some clues with its nature as an 'inversion' of space. Depending on the object and how much of it is in or out, this will probably force the object to one side of the ban as it manifests, if it is a notionally 'mobile' object. The floor for instance, is still fine even after you remove the ban.
>>47662845
So what's distance then - Matter?
>>47662860
No, "Distance" is a relationship, and thus covered by Space.
But you can't create a "distance" within an object/being because said object/being is, from the Supernal's perspective, an object in and of itself; changing it into two separate objects that could have "distance" between them would require Matter or Life.
>>47662845
There are Supernal symbols for specific cells, though. So you can do it with Space 3 Life 2. Make a place impassable for nerve cells and watch your enemies rip out their nervous systems.
>>47663103
>Make a place impassable for nerve cells and watch your enemies rip out their nervous systems.
So could you use Death to animate the dissociated cells afterwards?
>>47660738
Actually I would include Life considering that Thrax undergoes repeated facial surgery in order to stay hidden. Life would make this easier.
>>47663103
It wouldn't make their nerve cells jump right out of their body. It'd just make them hit the barrier and stop moving, push back against the other tissues in the body, and then cause the entire body part in question to go up in agony and force them to recoil away from barrier.
>>47662890
Well, you can remove limbs simply by inflicting the Arm Wrack or Leg Wrack tilts with an attack that does Lethal or Aggravated damage, and all of the Arcana are capable of that.
>>47662420
>>47662460
The new mage the awakening seems really complex. Is it still simpler than mage the ascension?
>>47663449
Neurosurgery is simpler than mage the ascension
>>47663377
What if you drooped the person through the barrier vertically with Space?
>Five uninterrupted posts in a row
>Quibbling that the book doesn't define "skill rolls"
>Arguing what constitutes "an action" in game terms
No, he shouldn't get a blog at all. That would be silly.
>>47662395
>>47661945
Is a game really "lacking" when the thing in question is unnecessary?
>>47662809
The problem--and my argument--is that many of these aren't actually meaningful imbalances as far as the designers are concerned. Devoting your entire character life to chaining Beats through self-mutilation is not something that is going to happen in a story.
That's the problem I have. These are extreme cases that require intentionally breaking the game. There are very few things in WoD that are stumbling into power builds, and all of those are easily fixed. None of these will come up. Why worry about them when there isn't infinite time and infinite money and infinite effort to devote to things? Everything Touhou has said is something that's already been said (especially by him), and is at the outlandish end of the spectrum. It's not something that a group is going to notice, and even if they do they probably won't use these "exploits" in the same way that your average Elder Scrolls playthrough isn't going to do buggy Alchemy or Enchanting loops.
>>47663528
>That would be silly.
Yes on second thoughts, lets not go to tumblr, tis a silly place.
>>47663538
Funny story, actually, despite everyone characterizing me as an SJW tumblrtard, the only reason I have a Tumblr in the first place is because it's not blocked by filters, so I could post links to it. I originally used Blog spot.
Frankly a Wikidot might be more appropriate. I'm sure Ads would love to be able to crossreference things.
>>47663572
But you are a self admitted SJW. So I mean....
>>47663449
It's more... concise I guess? Like everything is nice and consistent compared to 1e. But its way more complicated just in terms of "What is the least amount of factors I need to consider to do a thing".
So I'm thinking I want to run a Mage 2e game about the PCs being tasked to craft a bitchin construct to duke it out with some kind of Seer equivalent in the Astral realms. IE something that is more than JUST a golem, ideally utilising several arcana assembled separately, like say imbued items hooked up to a ghost inside of a group ritual cast golem shell or something.
How does everyone think, in general, the 'crafting' rules have held up in 2e?
Imbue Item seems... simpler now at least. Matter is much the same as ever. But I've never really had a good chance to see how a good 1e Mage BUILT things. Obviously a master of spirit could just create a suitable spirit, but can that spirit be made into the "solve all problems, punch all godzillas" toolbox needed?
>>47663528
>Is a game really "lacking" when the thing in question is unnecessary?
Is it? Again, Arrows canonically create magitech combat bodies for their fallen heroes to inhabit.
Free Council explicitly blends magic and technology as long as it works, and, in 1e, had eternal batteries (although they were poorly worded). So does Pantechnicon, if for a more sinister purpose.
Why should this implication of Mages having magic not be explored?
(Besides, "I can be Iron Man now!" is totally a thing a Free Council nerd somewhere would realize upon awakening as a Mage, purely from a character perspective.)
>>47663919
>Arrows canonically create magitech combat bodies for their fallen heroes to inhabit.
EVEN IN DEATH I STILL SERVE!
>>47663528
>There are very few things in WoD that are stumbling into power builds,
So many mage builds, for a start. Anyone with fighting style against someone without a fighting style. Combat Marksmanship.
>>47664000
>taking a fighting style is stumbling onto power build
You don't understand the argument, so you should probably not get involved.
>>47663919
>(Besides, "I can be Iron Man now!" is totally a thing a Free Council nerd somewhere would realize upon awakening as a Mage, purely from a character perspective.)
This can even be construed as an extension of the "humanity is magical" principle. Humanity created an idea, a Mage used his magic to back it up by calling the Supernal to do stuff in line with that idea.
As Below, So Above!
Besides, Mages could do all sorts of awesome life-changing shit WITHOUT it being for a combat purpose:
● Hone yourself up to Mind 5+ and think up a new drug or meta-material to weaken the hold of the Raptor and the Chancellor on the material world by a fraction of a degree;
● Use Alter Integrity several hundred/thousand times (yes, it is a major investment, good thing that Mages are oftentimes Obsessed about something) on a bundle of string long enough to reach the cosmos, then build a space elevator around it;
● Hone your linguistics skill to a superhuman degree and develop a meme-language you cannot intentionally lie in;
And more besides.
Yes, I posit that we, in fact, -need- guidelines about developing new stuff as a function of Supernal power. Not all Mages are content to scooby-doo around — some of them would seek Mysteries inherent in the deep workings of the Fallen World instead, and this is the part of Awakening that most fascinates me.
>>47663919
>So does Pantechnicon,
No they don't
They don't exist
It's Panopticon
>Pan = All
>Opti = Seeing
>Con = Group/Association
They're literally the All-Seeing Eye.
>>47663948
>>47664075
Pantechnicon and Panopticon are two different things. Pantechnicon is the -second- Matter ministry, which uses technology in furtherance of the Lie.
>>47663919
>Free Council explicitly blends magic and technology as long as it works
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ6TuxmgJN0
Because Lets face it, Aperture Science could be very easily converted into a Mage Group without much trouble.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt6iTwVIiMM
>>47663919
>>47664045
Look, I get that it is perfectly viable for that kind of thing to exist in the setting. I would not want it to be focused on in the core book. I don't like magical power armour. I don't want the Technocracy or Sons of Ether or Void Engineers. I don't want Mage to be Genius.
I feel that when you start getting into "I created this robot with magic and now it's out there roboting the fuck out of things because it's not Supernal" is when you start getting into Mage: The Ascension. I already have to just mentally ignore the fact that Mages should have come up with germ theory a billion years ago.
>>47664000
Taking the option that says "you become good at THING" and being good at THING is not stumbling into a power build. I'm talking about "Oh, wait, I just realized that unleashes a plague of soullessness because the developers didn't realize how these two powers could be used. We should probably say that doesn't work".
>>47664045
>string long enough to reach the cosmos, then build a space elevator around it;
Until a sleeper notices it and the entire thing implodes, or the spell becomes vulgar because you're doing something insane with it.
>Mind 5 Drug Development
That's how you get assassins, anon. Or Ochementa.
>>47664154
>or the spell becomes vulgar because you're doing something insane with it.
Or Luna eats it.
>>47664142
>is not stumbling into a power build
It is when you can accidentally break the game without trying. nWoD mage is absolutely lousy with that sort of thing. Normally you have to try to make a power build.
>>47664174
Or the cable doesn't actually lead to space.
Of course, assuming space is an actual thing and you don't run into a crystal sphere or something.
>>47664175
What are you considering breaking the game?
>>47664191
But enough of that, how do we make combustible Lemons? Life+Forces?
>>47664142
>. I already have to just mentally ignore the fact that Mages should have come up with germ theory a billion years ago.
I had a kinda-hacky solution in a game set in 1341 that I ran.
It basically boiled down to "The Tower implicitly protects the Mage from obtaining information via Knowing and Unveiling that he cannot understand or may hurt his mind". (A part of the back story of the party Thyrsus was that he developed a Knowing spell that willingly rescinded this protection, allowing him to learn the sum total of the information encoded in a living pattern, even if he immediately forgot a huge chunk of it — also triggering an automatic breaking point. He almost went insane when trying to read the structure of a common ant and suddenly understanding its full cellular composition and getting several terabytes of ant DNA crammed into his mind)
But this is not an official solution, is rather inelegant, and can be twisted into super-massive research ANYWAY if your mind is strong enough. Especially in 2e where Mages can't breaking-point.
> Look, I get that it is perfectly viable for that kind of thing to exist in the setting. I would not want it to be focused on in the core book
I am not saying that it should be analyzed in-depth in the core-book — I realize that word-count constraints are a thing. But it would make a cool thing to add to Signs of Sorcery, or Free Council 2E or whatever.
>I don't like magical power armour.
Do you like normal enchanted magical armor? Enhanced items and the such? I am not quibbling, just generally curious.
> I don't want the Technocracy or Sons of Ether or Void Engineers.
What about Imagineers, Cryptologoi (the idea of the meme-language came from there, desu) or Threnodists?
>>47664210
Starting level characters requiring GM shields to stop them turning the entire WoD Happy for several days, would be a good start. Rendering skills more or less useless by way of Mind is fairly plebeian, but considering you buff your rotes at the same time, it's a fairly easy way to get pseudo ultimate pools.
Maybe it's just shitty design and not game breaking, but you're constantly running into things that make you wonder if they really expected that.
>>47664223
Just life. They combust into thousands of bees.
But yeah, forces would be the easy shoe in. Of course, if it was more of a soul sucking, or flesh amortising lemon, it'd be death. You'd trip balls before your pattern unraveled if you used prime. Hey, that'd be neat. Have a mana channeling spell imbued on it so the next sleeper that eats one dies because their pattern gets overloaded with mana they're not designed to take.
You could always just take a regular lemon and brute force a fire spirit or something into it, with spirit.
>>47664237
Way too many moving parts.
It's simple.
Germs are part of the Lie. The reality of disease is way more mystical. Same with most scientific truths revealed through Knowing.
>Don't like Magic Power Armour
Not that anon, but Mage is urban fantasy. Power armour iron man style kinda crosses the theme boundary.
>>47664263
And these all acts of Hubris. Sour, yellow hubris.
>>47664154
>Until a sleeper notices it and the entire thing implodes, or the spell becomes vulgar because you're doing something insane with it.
But Alter Integrity is Lasting. It won't implode the same way Life-healed wounds won't.
>Or Luna eats it.
That's why you would need a Spirit master to run politics. Still doesn't invalidate the core concept.
>Of course, assuming space is an actual thing and you don't run into a crystal sphere or something.
You can theoretically teleport to Mars with Space 3 and a Curiosity marsian landscape photo as a sympathy yantra.
>>47664289
>Not that anon, but Mage is urban fantasy. Power armour iron man style kinda crosses the theme boundary.
And magitech dreadnoughts don't?
>>47664308
Magic doesn't work outside of Earth's atmosphere.
>>47664308
>But Alter Integrity is Lasting
You're making a length of string into something with a supernatural level of resilience. You're off the reservation as far as effects are concerned.
>Core Concept
Your character is not the first one to have thought of this. It's just as likely you have a seer notice that someone, in the future, is about to seriously fuck with things and do something to stop it. Or you DO accomplish it, and the paradox eats you.
>theoretically teleport to Mars
From a distance PoV, yes, you could travel very far distances. But that's the 3d way of looking at it. Hell, Mars might as well be a spirit realm we can only just perceive through our head meat spheres, it's not actually physically out there.
>>47664320
A golem with a soul bound into it might work. If you ran the power armour as some sort of Eldar Exarch sort of suit, it might fly. Iron Man, not so much.
>>47664350
That's Shadowrun.
Also
>implying atmosphere is a thing
>>47664350
So bring some Atmosphere with yourself or co-locate there instead of teleporting. Would necessitate Space 4, but hardly a problem.
Where do you take that from? Is it a specifically 2e thing? Because one of 1e sample spells specifically had a chance to teleport things to the cosmos.
>>47664237
I don't mind magically enchanted armour, or even using magic to enhance technology. It's when you start getting into overt obvious territory that it becomes too much for me. Like the other anon said, I want to keep my Urbfan strictly urban fantasy.
I agree that it would be fitting in Signs of Sorcery, along with better Alchemy rules.
>>47664239
Rendering the entire WoD Happy for a few days is basically impossible, and definitely impossible to "stumble into". It requires you go very much out of your way and abuse a system to perform. That Mind can enhance skills is pretty clearly intended. I'm pretty sure it's also intended that it can enhance Rotes, though I wouldn't allow that in my game. Creating an infinite feedback loop so that your Rote is getting +40 dice from your skill is also not "stumbling into" something game breaking, it requires you to very explicitly go out of your way.
Which, honestly, I'm fine with. Most of the time those won't even be feasible in a real game because of narrative time constraints, and if for some reason you do decide to join a game to play a character who will ignore the actual game just to fiddle with some particular spell, chances are you'll just get ignored by the plot because you're not being involved. It's on par with "what if I want to play a Mage that doesn't go after Mysteries?"
>>47664403
It's not just Shadowrun. Dave has said spells don't work off world.
>>47664403
>Hell, Mars might as well be a spirit realm we can only just perceive through our head meat spheres, it's not actually physically out there.
That was how it was in oMage. In nMage, as far as I know, Mars is physically there.
Players are wandering into a nest of spooky spider spirits next session. I've never ran anything involving spirits before. What sort of things can the spirits reasonably do? What about in terms of attacking?
>>47664447
>Rendering the entire WoD Happy for a few days is basically impossible, and definitely impossible to "stumble into"
Not even slightly impossible. Spell factors are broken as fuck. A starting level mage with a few rotes and mind 3, space 2, could do it.
The traditional retort would be that something big and nasty from the magic world turns up at your hovel and kicks your ass, but the problem is still there, systemically.
>clearly intended
Not having 20 in a given stat and skill, giving you a rote skill pool that'd put an master to shame, isn't.
>explicitly go out of your way
You cast the spell as a ritual, then you cast the other spell as a ritual. Using the spell as explicitly described in one of the most basic methods gets it.
That's the problem with rituals as well. Shifting the potency to an exponential curve on hits helps a lot.
>pretty sure it's intended you can't enhance Rotes
You'd think that, but that would imply that WW could find their asses with both hands. We eventually home ruled a 'magic can't beget magic' rule. You can't affect your magic pools/supernal soul's efficiency with magic, for the most part. So no snowballing mind/life and rotes.
>chances are you'll just get ignored by the plot
Shitty GMing, particularly considering most of it isn't that hard. We accidentally a building downtown once before we looked at the ritual rules.
We were planning on faking an assassination of a vampire, so we figure (using what we had, arcanum wise, being a starter level party), we could turn the water in the fire suppression system to petrol, and then levitate a molotov cocktail in through a window. Fire starts, the water sprays, and whoops, it's all petrol and the office catches fire. Of course, even a starting level matter mage doing a full ritual ends up with enough power to turn every drop of water in the block into petrol. So we accidentally a downtown office block. And that crossed Arson off the list of crimes we hadn't yet committed.
>>47664444
I take it from Dave flat out stating it.
>>47660631
Whatever you do, keep them confined to powers equivalent to those the vampires have (unless being OP relative to the vampires is the entire point).
>>47664499
Just about anything, really. Domains are really goddamn broad as far as the GM's concerned.
They're spider spirits, so in addition to force, finesse, and resistance stats, they'll have domains relevant for spider spirits.
Maybe they weave astral webs, that ensnare thoughts? Maybe they drain mana out of people? Maybe they cocoon smaller spirits and turn them into other spider spirit eggs? Maybe they have magic spirit eyes and only go after people with certain types of auras. Maybe they want to kidnap your spirit mage and use her to force open a locus so that they can go places?
>>47663619
Imbue Item has become totally useless, since you cannot make items better than what you can cast as a usual spell, AND they always at least take 1 mana per use, which is too much in the 2e paradigm unless the item does something you cannot due to not having a rote or the Arcana needed or something.
Crafting rules are now ultimately a lot, lot, LOT less useful than 1e. Of course, in 1e they were at times hilariously broken, but now they are well... Mostly not worth the expenditure.
>>47664447
>Dave has said spells don't work off world.
B-but muh Pocket Dimension...
>>47662348
>However, is there anything stopping the spell from simply bisecting someone in half, no Withstand allowed either? That probably should not be the case.
That'd be aggravated damage, so Space 5. Because The Lie.
>>47664657
I could have sworn he said its works just fine.
Damn my player planed to send an enemy to the moon.
>>47664621
They're useful because you can share them with the party.
>>47664686
No shit.
How are they useful to -you- ?
>>47664657>>47664685
Now that I learned it, I have no idea what the fuck.
Luna (and more importantly, Lunes) are at least partially a part of the Fallen World.
So the Fallen World does extend to at least Moon's orbit.
So what the fuck, then? I think it's some sort of a hacky "STAY ON EARTH YE BASTARDS" fix.
Which, of course, is utterly bullshit because you still can shift to like half a dozen mystical realms. But Mars is apparently a no-no.
Oh well, there goes my idea of a Martian ruined-temple chronicle drawing heavily from Burroughs. Thanks, Dave.
>>47663528
>Why worry about them when there isn't infinite time and infinite money and infinite effort to devote to things?
The problem is the implications of your argument, not necessarily that the argument is or isn't valid. Throwing a blanket "this isn't a problem" over everything obfuscates some real, important problems to the text. Yes, Touhou throws an avalanche of problems of varying urgency with a lot of words, but for whatever small little quirk he's found, he's also found some problems that Dave will attempt to address. Touhou and the people with him are not talking about keeping it in playtesting forever and ever, they're talking about clearer, tighter rules to minimize the ST having to do guesswork about what is and isn't OK for their game. They are arguing that no, for Mage it isn't as minimal as it could be, and you may not agree with that argument, but it's a valid argument.
I don't appreciate you trying to drive the conversation to some out of the way blog just because you don't like it or find it a threat to your pet conversations.
>>47664743
>>47664657
>>47664447
Does anyone have proof that dave said this? Because I asked before and he remained silent last I remember.
>>47664499
Most important question: have you read the Ephemeral Rules in the CofD core (or your chosen 2e splat) yet?
>>47664578
>Not even slightly impossible. Spell factors are broken as fuck. A starting level mage with a few rotes and mind 3, space 2, could do it.
You're referencing something from 1e, it is not possible to cover the entire planet in Spell factors, and there are about a hundred other off hand reasons it's nonsensical. Most importantly, though, it's far from "stumbling into" something, since it requires infinite time and preparation and effort, something that is increasingly rare. "If you craft a ridiculous scenario that only works in hypothetical" doesn't mean something is broken.
>You can't affect your magic pools/supernal soul's efficiency with magic, for the most part. So no snowballing mind/life and rotes.
Actually, I said "I'm pretty sure it's intended that you CAN", though I wouldn't allow it, or would require spending +2 Reach or something.
>So we accidentally a downtown office block
Sounds like you intentionally chose to turn as much water as you could into petrol. Although I'd certainly rule in my own game that if you're going to do something like that you'd need to be sensory range viewing the majority of the water and aware of how it moves through the pipes, as opposed to cracking open one pipe and somehow turning aaaaall of it into gasoline.
Also, it's not shitty GMing to ignore someone who ignores the plot.
>>47660631
This is oWoD, but just stat them using Vampire powers. I think at least a few oWoD books actually did that.
>>47664657
The pocket dimension still counts as being on the planet Earth.
>>47664743
You can do whatever you want, it's your game. But yes, it's probably a hacky "stay on Earth" fix. Demon doesn't bother with it, and the interchapter fiction from Demon STG has an angel way out in space.
>>47664772
I was being slightly unfairly facetious with the last comment >>47664743 here due to being rather bitter about the whole shebang.
I would endeavor to ask him once he shows up again. But if I don't, please ask him too, just so we know.
>>47664758
>Throwing a blanket "this isn't a problem" over everything obfuscates some real, important problems to the text.
But my argument is to focus on THOSE. The problems he's found that Dave will attempt to address have already been brought up. More importantly, I feel that leaving much of the guesswork up to the ST is a core part of the system. Any system, really, I mean, "they don't let the GM do their thing" is one of the reasons people hate Pathfinder Society and other Organized Play events.
Also, it's not a conversation, it's a monologue.
>>47664817
Hey that Angel doing the important job of making sure Earth not hit with asteroids.
>>47664817
>The pocket dimension still counts as being on the planet Earth.
No.
>The Pocket Dimension is divorced from physical reality; unless the mage chooses to anchor the realm to a point in the world
>>47664499
>>47664619
>Spider thing, spider thing
>Feeds itself by spider-ing
>Spins a web, any size
>Nabs essence just like flies
>Look Out!
>Here comes the Spider thing
>Is it strong? Listen whore,
>It's rank is motherfucking four!
>Can it swing, from a thread?
>Take a look overhead
>Hey, there
>There goes the Spider thing
>In the chill of night
>At the scene of a crime
>Like a streak of light
>Runs away just in time
>Spider thing, spider thing
>Hungry neighborhood Spider thing
>Wealth and fame it will ignore
>It just prefers a lot of gore
>To it, wolves are a great big bang up
>Wherever there's a hang up
>You'll find the Spider thing!I tried
>>47664901
Are you intentionally being dense, or...?
Yes, it's divorced from reality. But for the purposes of this conversation, it still counts as being part of the planet Earth, the same way that the Shadow/Underworld/Hedge/Astral are. It's not some far off point in space. You can create a new hole and crawl into it, but you cannot travel to the Moon.
>>47664940
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUtziaZlDeEYou did good.
>>47664840
But he didn't find all the problems yet, anon. IIRC he's like halfway down the Arcana list.
Stat me /tg/
>>47665193
10/10, that's the only stat you need.
>>47665193
I have no idea who that is.
>>47665193
Size/Type: Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 5d10+25 (52 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+14
Attack: Claw +9 melee (1d6+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d6+5) and bite +4 melee (1d8+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Scent
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 12, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Listen +8, Spot +8
Feats: Alertness, Track
Environment: Temperate forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3-8)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 6-8 HD (Large); 9-15 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —
>>47664743
You can totally go to Mars - do it through the Astral. The 1e Astral Realms book even mentions this as a way to do Planetary Romance-esque adventures.
>>47664840
>More importantly, I feel that leaving much of the guesswork up to the ST is a core part of the system. Any system, really,
And here's where people are going to react poorly to your game philosophy if they disagree. "The GM will do most of the guesswork" has been the rallying cry of the poor designer over many years, hiding behind consumer agency to justify the faults with their work. The GM altering the game to their liking is something that everyone can agree on, but crossing the line to the point where the designer themselves will lean on that as a crutch? That's not going to sit well with people, and it's not going to draw them to your philosophy.
You bring up organized play, but those are a unified series of adventures for people who agree to come together to play in a single setting, even if they don't know each other personally. It's going to seem much more limiting, because that's what happens when large groups of people want to play under one ruleset. That's very different from the situation that we're talking about, where groups play in a mostly isolated state and with tighter social contracts. Games for these groups certainly don't need the rigid tightness of organized play, but rules that lean too much on that social contract can be disastrous without firm foundations.
Your philosophy is valid, but you're always going to get hard push-back when it comes to a game with as many moving parts as CofD. You claim that he's already gone through all the problems, but even until Dave acknowledged those problems, you were still trying to shut down the entire conversation. You keep talking about how you want to talk about the real problems, but can't seem to come up with any. It's OK to admit that the two of you are never going to agree and disengage. Dave will pick and choose what he wants to work with, Touhou will go play with his own system, and everyone will make their own minds about what to do.
>>47665260
Learn yourself some history: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8Sfrhj5IP4
>Blacula, Dracula's soul brother, deadlier even than he!
>>47665334
But that's Astral Mars, not actual, rock-and-red-sand in-the-sky mortal-visible Mars.
While it'd be cool as well, it's not exactly the same.
>>47665431
Unless you find an Iris inside the Astral reflection of an ancient Atlantian temple...
>>47665431
In fact, the idea I was going to use built off the Astral (because I love the astral) and would have had parts of the temple in the Astral and parts in the Material, because it was Astral-sunk and got shattered during the Celestial Ladder's fall.
>>47665422
So a Ventrue with Majesty then?
>>47665522
And can survive on real-world Mars because your magical ways of saving yourself don't, apparently, work outside the Earth's atmosphere and you can't take things with you to the Temenos that can be taken back out.
In fact, what happens when you pass that Iris? Your waking body is still on Earth, do you effectively Astral Project a-la Mind 4 or what?
>>47665163
Even if he was going in order, Time is literally the last fucking Arcanum.
>>47665384
But we're not talking about poor design here. Especially for things like Mystery Cult, we're talking about design that does exactly what it's intended to, even though allowing for that allows for shenanigans if you treat RAW as GOD. These are rules that shouldn't have rigid tightness. If we treat everything as if it needed to be up to snuff for organized play simply because you can't fall back on the social contract as "an excuse", then suddenly games lose a lot of their flexibility.
Also, my problem is mainly that even though it's been explained to him that certain things (like Mystery Cult) are clearly left open so that the group can decide what is or isn't acceptable, Adslahnit keeps treating it as if RAW is GOD and anyone can chain merits. In his world, the ST *must* obey the rules exactly as written. Anyone who has ever been an ST would know that doesn't work.
>>47665564
fix: can't
>>47665541
Pretty much, Blacula's a Lord to a T. He was even an African prince in life.
Hey, I heard Mage 2e is totally broken if your ST is retarded and never says no to anything, is this true? How could OP release such a thing?
>>47665334
>>47665431
>>47665522
>>47665531
>join Thrice-Great legacy
>buy Merit "Celestial Name (Mars)" at any rate
>????
>profit
>>47665813
Well, at the current level the ST needs to say no to a such huge amount of things that it invalidates the integrity of the system. If the ST would say no to half+ of your endeavors possible under the new system, there is no point where creativity is rewarded.
At that point one might just play a freeform or something.
>>47664817
>infinite time and effort
More like a day.
>majority of the water
Sympathetic connection to the reservoir.
>intended that you can
Yeah, exactly why it needed a house rule.
>Also, it's not shitty GMing to ignore someone who ignores the plot.
Unless they're doing something to specifically further a character goal or deal with a plot problem. Which is likely, one way or another.
>>47665608
>In his world, the ST *must* obey the rules exactly as written. Anyone who has ever been an ST would know that doesn't work.
And again, here's why your argument isn't landing with these people: You're assuming that the ST will make the right choices with these rules when there may not even be a realization that there is a choice involved. There are certainly rules where this is fine and dandy, but when these rules mix with more rigid rules in a 400+ rules document, things get murky. You claim to have a design approach where you assume that "players are idiots" or something like that, and yet you expect their common sense to mesh with yours? Every game is someone's first.
This is less about what Touhou says at this point and more about your basic counter-argument, and what it means for game design as a whole. You're arguing against "Raw is god", but coming at it from an equally dangerous position of "Just use your common sense". While Touhou's position can encourage inflexibility and rules lawyering, yours can encourage elitism and laziness.
>>47665849
>Well, at the current level the ST needs to say no to a such huge amount of things that it invalidates the integrity of the system.
Not really. "Freezing your timeline won't keep you from being handcuffed" or "no, I don't feel it's appropriate for you to take that merit only to give you another merit that you'll use for another merit" isn't really invalidating the integrity of the system. Also, Mage is always going to be a game where the ST is going to have to say no to ridiculous endeavours. That's the inherent downside to a system like Creative Thaumaturgy.
>>47665925
Can you even have a sympathetic connection between objects? Also, if you consider that a "house rule" and some kind of a deal breaker--and, again, nothing in the system said you had to do what you did--then that's your own fault, not the system's.
>>47665978
I'm not encouraging elitism or laziness.
Look, let's look at this from a different perspective. What do YOU think would be a reasonable solution? How would you 'fix' Mystery Cult or this Time spell?
>>47665849
> If the ST would say no to half+ of your endeavors possible under the new system, there is no point where creativity is rewarded.
This reminds me a GM who only let the players use rote spells from books.
>>47665992
>Can you even have a sympathetic connection between objects
Why wouldn't you? Everything has a mystic identity. Spirit magic is pretty much contingent on that fact.
>said you have to do it
Yes, I suppose a crappy system could work on the honour system that you do nothing that might expose it's faults.
That's squarely back into 'GM house rules it' territory.
>>47660631
In my anarch vtm story I have basically every splat running around plus an entirely new an supernatural being type running around without them causing any large amount of issues.
Keep things in perspective, not every mage or werewolf are going to be absolute shit stompers, there are going to be a lot of average joes or even more pathetic running about.
The local changelings own and conspire in a single posh nightclub in the center of the city.
Most of the local mages just exploded due to meta plot reasons which is known in the media as explosive or violent ebola, the surviving ones are lieing really low out of fear.
The werewolves are rather short handed only having around 20 or so city wide split between the glass walkers and the bone gnawers. their numbers were kulled by a huge sabat movement, and they were pulled out of the fire by the local Anarch movement which as of now has lead to a relatively stable alliance. there is also a news corporation owned by Corax
There are a few koijin in the city allied to a rival Anarch group trying to make a hostile take over of the city, but they are few and far between.
The sabat were almost entirely purged from the city over the past decade or so, their last stronghold which was a cold war era bomb shelter in a nearby mountain was taken over by a rogue Tzim Methuselah who migrated from mexico at some point presumably. he in turn made some sort of quazi revinant family based off of pigmys to do his bidding
There is a Cam knight order passing through which helped purged the last of the sabat and have no outstanding issues with the Anarch leadership at this point in time.
Pentex just bought huge portions of the citys realstate and is attempting to turn the city into a new headquarters for them, currently my players are focused on them in particular.
And to top it all off an entirely new group of human based supernatural beings has started to show up, much to every ones confusion including
>>47666076
That is horrible. You are perfectly capable that way to break most anything, but it sucks out most of the fun.
>>47665564
I dunno lol, make something up.I had a game where a player escaped from a Guardian prison cell by meditating his way into the Astral (the prison was a Demesne) and going to a Wending that the Cabal had discovered in a previous adventure to re-enter the Material.
I had him pop out in a normal, physical body - in fact, with all wounds healed. Once he went back to bust the rest of the Cabal out, he opened the cell his body was still in - and immediately found his mind snapping back into a near-death, no-food-or-drink for several days body laying on a cot in the cell, with the other body winking out of existence.
>>47665992
>"Freezing your timeline won't keep you from being handcuffed"
Yes it will, if you stutter a second forwards or backwards whenever someone attempts to handcuff you. This is an Imago for Veil of Moments that is totally reasonable. Possibly even keyed off Larceny.
>>47666183
RESULTS! THIS TRUE MANS WORLD ONLY CARES ABOUT THE RESULTS!
>>47666211
Excuse me?
>>47665978
Thank you, you've put into writing a lot of what I could not effectively formulate.
>>47666228
>Excuse me?
It's a reference to Jojos Bizarre Adventure, the main antagonist of Part 5 had a Stand that could skip time forwards 10 seconds (I think), and an antagonist from Part 7 had a Stand that could rewind time by exactly 6 seconds.
>>47666096
I don't think Sympathy works the way that you think it does, and, no, I mean that literally nothing said you had to transmute literally all of the water on the city block into gasoline just because you had that capability. You set the spell factors, not the game. You change the Duration, you changed the Area. You would have had to use Advanced Spell Factors to effect that much water. In fact, I don't even know how you did it in the first place, considering you claimed it was something you could do at starting level, but Transubstantiation is a four dot spell.
It sounds less like you stumbled into something broken and more that you didn't even use the rules as they were written in the first place.
>>47666183
>>47666211
By that same logic, though, you could argue that with that imago you can avoid damage by stuttering back to before it happened. It also explicitly says it doesn't undo things, it just stops the progression of time. It's only a Shielding spell, not Ruling or Patterning or something. Even if you allow that to grant a bonus or something, that doesn't really handle the "ALL CONDITIONS AND TILTS" arguments. It doesn't stop damage from attacks, so why should it stop damage from environmental tilts like an earthquake? Why would it let you keep seeing fine in the dark, or heavy fog or rain? Why would it let you walk through knee deep snow without issue?
Also, worth noting, for a lot of Rotes, I would be stricter on what they can and can't do based on the Mudra used. Something keyed off of Larceny wouldn't let you get punchier or things like that.
>>47666287
Fucking King Crimson.
>>47666300
Can the Imago for my spells be 'it just works'?
>>47666318
No, but I'd accept "It just fucking works".
In case any of you don't know, Paradox sent a Cease and Desist to the Subnet site for WoD rules. Other sites showcasing WoD mechanics are also following suit.
My God, Carmilla was right. Martin Ericsson really is an evil dickweed.
I don't know which is worse, the fact that the subnet is gone for good, or that Carmilla is right about something for once in his life.
I don't want to live on this planet anymore.
>>47665978
Im not that anon but I think the main point is that there will never be a perfect system with flawless balance and crystal clear rules, and so accepting that fact rather than fruitlessly fighting against it can lead to better design.
So yes GM's will probably end up making bad calls, but even if the devs devoted thousands of pages to the rules nothing would change, those games would still have flaws. The question then becomes exactly what level of depth and explanation is necessary.
>>47666296
In that case the handcuffs will become clock-blocked and stuck the moment someone touches them to you with hostile intent?
Apparently the Supernal can see intent, as per Words of Fire and the debacle therein.
>Not really. "Freezing your timeline won't keep you from being handcuffed" or "no, I don't feel it's appropriate for you to take that merit only to give you another merit that you'll use for another merit" isn't really invalidating the integrity of the system. Also, Mage is always going to be a game where the ST is going to have to say no to ridiculous endeavours. That's the inherent downside to a system like Creative Thaumaturgy.
I wasn't actually speaking about -those-. I was speaking about shit like Shifting Sands being able to time-travel you back two scenes without a paradox risk, or Chaos Mastery being a grab bag and horrifyingly overpowered. The ones you talked about are a lot easier dealt with.
>>47666358
Mage Farnsworth when?
>>47666362
Nirvana fallacy all up in this bitch.
>>47666358
>Other sites showcasing WoD mechanics are also following suit.
like what?
>>47666382
If using Ascension, I could see Farnsworth in either the Sons of Ether or the Technocracy, as for Awakening, not sure.
>>47666504
Not sure which ones, but the rumor is that a lot of people are taking down their WoD material offline so they don't get legal threats from Paradox. This sort of thing happens when a company breaks out the lawyers.
>>47666358
We all already know that. It IS worth noting that with US trademark and copyright law being what it is, they kind of have to. However, it's also true that it quite possibly would have been protected under Fair Use laws. Worth noting, CoDIndex is likely to stay up.
>>47666368
>In that case the handcuffs will become clock-blocked and stuck the moment someone touches them to you with hostile intent?
No more so than you being unable to dress yourself when under Veil of Moments. It's just your physical being. It doesn't even give you a Jack Harkness like stasis effect (though I could see a more powerful spell doing that).
Also, I agree that things like Chaos Mastery are bad. The reason we shouldn't harp on about THAT is that it's already getting fixed so there's no point in acting like it's stuck in stone and How Things Are. I'd never defend Chaos Mastery other than "no you can't repeatedly treat the same spell as dealing damage multiple times"
Can we talk about something other than Mage 2e? It can even be oWoD for all I care. I'm just sick of having to sift through a whole thread of nothing but Mage 2e arguments.
>>47666555
Fair point, I just heard the news having been out of the loop for a while. My younger brother graduated high school, so I've been busy with that.
Once I found out the subnet was shut down, I was legit shocked.
>>47666530
>Not sure which ones, but the rumor is that a lot of people are taking down their WoD material offline so they don't get legal threats from Paradox.
and where'd you hear this rumor?
subnet was basically just open piracy, paradox hasn't done anything against anyone else
>>47666433
Except you're the one making a fallacy, particularly the strawman. No one is saying that if you can't get perfection you shouldn't try. People (mostly me) are saying that many of the things in question are written as clearly as they need to be and at the most would need some "the particular limits are up to the ST" or changing the phrasing to use words like "perhaps" that are more implicit on the fact that they're left up to the individual group or situation.
For instance,
>While this spell is active, the subject becomes immune to things that worsen with time. She will not bleed out from her wounds, and poison and toxins effectively halt their duration, as does the progression of disease. New Conditions and Tilts cannot be imposed on the subject while the spell remains in effect. Supernatural powers that impose effects provoke a Clash of Wills.
Could be reworded as
>While this spell is active, the subject becomes immune to things that worsen with time. She will not bleed out from her wounds, poisons and toxins stop effecting her, and disease stops progressing. This may prevent new Conditions or Tilts from being imposed on the subject, though Supernatural powers provoke a Clash of Wills.
Fundamentally the same power, just rewritten in a way that makes it more implicit that you have to use your judgement.
>>47666530
I'm worried what it means for homebrew. I was already a bit worried about Geist 2e Homebrew Boogaloo.
>>47666585
I get that. 1 in 10,000 and all. It's just that it's come up like five times in two threads.
Let's just go ahead and say it....
Paradox Interactive are a bunch of assholes and CofD is better than oWoD or whatever the fuck One World of Darkness will be.
>>47666602
>I'm worried what it means for homebrew. I was already a bit worried about Geist 2e Homebrew Boogaloo.
does your homebrew contain entire published books posted online? does your geist 2e homebrew have every section for every clan taken from books verbatim and publsihed online with it?
>>47666517
I mean I can see him being a member of either Mysterium or the Free Council, but the Path he would Awaken to is the difficult bit.
>>47666602
Except that's litearlly what he said, fuckface.
>Can't ever get perfect rules, so you shouldn't try.
Perhaps try reading, dumbass.
>Im not that anon but I think the main point is that there will never be a perfect system with flawless balance and crystal clear rules, and so accepting that fact rather than fruitlessly fighting against it can lead to better design.
Read, nigga, read. I know you hate it so much, and can't but help and start flailing and screaming and posting and posting and posting about how I'm so fucking wrong, but I don't really much care, particularly when you can't even be fucking bothered to read.
>>47666564
Sure thing, you a fan of werewolf tge forsaken?
Cause I want to try an turn the merit below into a pack merit.
>>47666719
Why don't you try reading? He was talking about the player, not the publisher.
He's saying that as players you will never encounter the perfect system (or else it would be the only system). So create your homebrew based on the perceived flaws, because constantly harassing people isn't solving anything.
>>47666602
That's actually assuming you are, in fact, right, and the spell isn't meant to be a hard block to all tilts and conditions.
And if it's mostly JUST YOU saying something's clear enough, mayhap that's a good indication that no, it's not actually clear enough. You know what they say, if everyone's an asshole but you...
>>47666626
Your attempts at trolling are sad and pathetic. We have been through this song and dance before.
>>47666745
The fact that you miss the point this hard is really fucking embarrassing.
>>47666771
Really?
What's the point? Spamming 4chan? Getting people to know Mage is flawed (as if they didn't already know)? Advice on how to make a really powerful luck loop with an acanthus?
>>47666759
Who said I was trolling? I am legit pissed at Paradox for shutting down the Subnet (granted, they were well within their legal right to do so, but what does that mean for WoD homebrews?) and I always preferred the more down-to-earth CofD to the more grandiose oWoD.
>>47666811
>but what does that mean for WoD homebrews?
literally nothing
subnet wasn't a homebrew, it was the opposite, it gave you the RAW
>>47666296
Changing liquids is a 2 dot spell.
>don't think
You can think what you like, that's the genius of Mage. The writers didn't know, so the players can figure it out for themselves. Beyond that, the idea of objects having a mystic presence is well founded within the setting. And you don't need advanced spell factors, just potency. Not for that spell.
Camilla here, I was biding my time for the furor to die down over Martin Ericsson's latest exercise in utter douchebaggery so I could say I told you so....
Also, this song is dedicated to Aspel, 2hu, HentaiLARP-chan, and all the other little fishes on /wodg/ that shit up the threads as bad as, if not worse than me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sEMRAoMhf0
Except atamajakki. I actually like him. Even if he doesn't like me.
>>47666855
I know that, but it could set a precedence for Paradox to go after homebrews. That is the issue here.
>>47666921
>I know that, but it could set a precedence for Paradox to go after homebrews. That is the issue here.
it actually couldn't
they're protecting their already published property
homebrew isn't their already published property
that's like saying by protecting my copyright for this microsoft art I drew, no one can draw anymore
I know it's hard, especially for you, but don't be a whiny idiot. If you weren't so fat you'd be like chicken little.
Camilla once again, and I'd like to say I'm so sick of this thread. Between the shitposting and the rampant sperging over Mage 2e and Touhou, I'm out. And unlike Aspel or others who make empty promises, I intend to actually take my leave of absence and escape this rampant stupidity. So I will have me a drink of pic related and then take a nap. See ya later.
I'll be back when the quality of these threads improve. And I'll be a lot more civil next time. Sorry for this bullshit.
>>47666433
Nope. That would be true if i was saying 'its impossible to make a perfect system might as well just stop making RPG's period'
That why i pointed out at the end that there has to be balance between clear raw rules and GM discretion since neither can do everything on its own
>>47667006
See you on the forums.
>>47666969
Fair point. Legally you are correct, but I have heard of companies doing stupid things like go after homebrew material. So you never know.
Either way, it's old news, let's just sit down, shut up, and go back to actually discussing CofD games we will probably never actually play.
>>47667037
You too. Now, time for some vodka and a nice nap.
>>47667044
>we will probably never actually play.
Speak for yourself, just because your experience with gaming doesn't extend beyond ERP and writing half-assed homebrew so you can troll people into talking to you doesn't mean other people are as crippled by sub sandwiches.
Can we just start a new thread? It's clear this one has gone to shit.
Has anyone considered splitting Mage: The Awakening into its own general thread?
>>47666719
Is your ridiculous hateboner for me making you dumber?
>>47666747
I sincerely doubt it's meant to hard block all Tilts and Conditions, since many of them would be physically unreasonable given the actual effect of the spell. It's also not just me.
>>47666867
... Shaping doesn't allow you to change water into gasoline.
Shaping doesn't even require more Potency.
"Size" is a spell factor.
Transubstantiating all of the water in the entire neighborhood would require an outrageously high Size factor.
-8 to -8 and a Reach for Advanced Scale, depending on how you want to judge it.
You then need to increase Duration to make it last long enough, which would probably require Reaching to Advanced, unless you were going to set the sprinklers off immediately while in the building.
Sympathy is emotional connections, which an object can't have with another object
You literally didn't even use the rules right. Either that or you're talking about 1e, which is so irrelevant to this discussion that I don't give a shit to look that up.
>>47667204
2hufag will follow you. There is no escape from it.
>>47667044
Actually posting your Geist updates on the Onyxpath forums should be enough to protect you.
>>47666018
YOU'RE not encouraging elitism or laziness, it's your philosophy and its conclusions that do so, without a proper counterbalance. I'm not talking about what would be a solution to this game, I'm talking about the high level approaches to making games that this whole thing boils down to, and why your argument fails to convince people who are listening to Touhou. You keep throwing your responses without seeming to understand why they feel this way.
>>47666362
"Your game will never be perfect" isn't much of an argument because...yes, of course. No one asks for a perfect game when they make criticism, they're asking for what they would see as a better game. It should still be a designer's top priority to create the best game possible, even understanding that their creation will not be perfect. This means it has to be both a good entertainment product (it must hook you into its world and tone) and a good instruction manual (its rules must be clear, and you must understand what you're accomplishing with them in regards to the setting and player/GM action).
You are completely right about determining the level of depth and explanation necessary due to the realities of writing books, except....
>More importantly, I feel that leaving much of the guesswork up to the ST is a core part of the system. Any system, really,
This isn't a case by case situation of determining what should be in-depth and what shouldn't be in-depth (which DaveB and his crew did with Mage 2e, to various responses), this is a blanket assumption of the entire state of game design, and that's the problem. It's the same problem with Touhou recommending PbtA games to an audience who might just enjoy the level of crunch and simluationism/narrativism blend that CofD's system provides. It comes off as a very "one size fits all" approach, which are the most faulty approaches of all.
This is why they're never, ever going to agree, but that's OK.
>>47666969
Actually, I believe resources like that are protected under Fair Use. It's essentially a reference. It doesn't even provide enough information to play the game.
>especially for you
I know you assume everyone who says something you don't agree with is me, but that's not Aspel.
I'm actually aware of how copyrights and trademarks work. I'm also aware that in many cases it doesn't matter if they have legal basis, they can still go after things anyway. Chances are you can't stand up to them in court, so you're going to back down, even if you're legally in the clear.
>>47667006
>And unlike Aspel or others who make empty promises
I never promise to leave. I promise not to. You're the king of empty promises. I have a screenshot saved somewhere of you saying you'd never be back. That's from like two years ago.
>>47666737
How do you mean? Like having a group of spirits be loyal to a pack as opposed to a person?
>>47667304
>YOU'RE not encouraging elitism or laziness, it's your philosophy and its conclusions that do so, without a proper counterbalance
That's a ridiculous argument. My philosophy is that as long as things are clear, it's golden. Things don't need to be super strict, and groups should decide their own limits. If anything, that requires more work, because you can't rely on wordswordswords to describe the limitations.
Touhou also does seem to be asking for a perfect game.
As an aside, considering I'm being very lax, it's sort of silly that you're saying my philosophy is "one size fits all".
>>47667360
Well original its from the chronicles guide "to isolate".
What im thinking of doing is have the merit work as a Spirit Choir that the Pack totems has under its control.
So far the best way I can think to limit it is to have the Prerequisites be.
Totem Spirit Rank at the Merit rating.
>>47667304
>"Your game will never be perfect"
Thats not what i was trying to say, but it probably came off as that. What i was trying to say basically had to do with this
>its rules must be clear, and you must understand what you're accomplishing with them in regards to the setting and player/GM action
Putting more and more effort into making perfect clear rules has diminishing returns after a certain point. As well pushing it to far can result in stuff like F.T.A.L. I came into this recently so i dont know what this debate started over, so that particular issue may or may not be one that could be made clearer. You're right about there not being a blanket right way to do things
>>47667308
We just all wish you would leave, Doug.
>>47667642
When are you going to just fuck?
>>47667642
Speak for yourself I actually like Aspel.
>>47664298
We've already covered that Acts of Hubris get BTFO by Steadfast earlier.
>>47667892
We've also covered that your ST is a spineless baby
>>47668008
Not him, but "the GM will fix it" is no justification for shittily written rules.
You can patchjob a system all you want, but that just means that not enough attention was paid to the system in the first place.
Upside though, this is prior to the first errata.
So given that we're catching all this stuff, things are looking up.
>>47667308
>I promise to never leave, but I'll constantly try to get other people to
And you wonder why people can you a fucking faggot.
>>47668008
Why the fuck shouldn't Steadfast cover it, my little faggot? Do you have an actual reason other then MUH FEELS?
>>47668069
>>47668114
Do you have a justification for why you should be able to completely ignore a subsystem other than "rules don't say I can't"?
>>47668096
I have as much power to get him to leave as you have for getting me to leave.
>>47665431
>>47665334
The Astral contains several versions of Mars in the Temenos and the true reflection of Mars beyond Dreaming Earth. It's a long walk, though.
>>47668151
So yes, you have no fucking argument as to why the condition shouldn't work how the condition works.
>>47668151
>Do you have a justification for why you should be able to completely ignore a subsystem other than "rules don't say I can't"?
It's not ignoring a subsystem, it's mitigation of its effects given prior planning, not especially useful in a pinch.
If you want, you could say that casting Steadfast in preparation for an Act of Hubris is an act of Hubris as well for higher Wisdom characters, being an attempt to escape responsibility for your actions.
Plus if I'm honest, the onus should be on the guy saying "I'm going to ignore the rules".
>>47668182
>The Astral contains several versions of Mars
The Astral contains EVERY version of Mars.
Just like how it contains every representation of Starbucks.
Or the holocaust.
>>47667378
>My philosophy is that as long as things are clear, it's golden.
And that players are stupid and if an ST makes a bad call, even if it's possible that the rules could be interpreted that way, they're a bad GM, or maybe just a pussy. You try to appear easy going with the way you interpret game design, but the conclusions of your philosophy inevitably manifest itself. Your desire for looser rules has a streak of disdain for other players in it, just as Touhou's desire for tighter rules comes with a streak of disdain for its developers. You can't see a system that wouldn't benefit from a looser ruleset, which makes it pretty one size fits all.
>>47667570
I'd agree with you there. This is basically an argument between two people and their approach to RAW/RAI discrepancy, coming at it from two very hardline stances, both with valid arguments but with unfortunate implications without nuance. FATAL's problem is less RAW/RAI discrepancy and more that no matter how they're written or intended, they're just really bad at what they do.
>>47667642
I don't want anyone to leave, even if I never agree with them. Cut this weird stalker crap.
>>47668200
>>47668207
My argument is that it allows you to completely ignore Wisdom loss. I don't care if it's a rule, I don't work by "it doesn't say it can't". If I'm the Storyteller, I get to arbitrarily decide what does and doesn't fly, and I feel that other Storytellers would also rule that you can't use Steadfast for a Wisdom roll.
If you want to instead rule that intentionally making yourself Steadfast to avoid Hubris is an act of Hubris, fine. That's a valid response. Maybe I'd go with that. But I'm going to interpret the rules in whichever way is most conducive to actually running a fucking game.
>>47668242
>And that players are stupid and if an ST makes a bad call, even if it's possible that the rules could be interpreted that way, they're a bad GM, or maybe just a pussy
No. Only if the group is making calls simply because it's RAW. I've said repeatedly (in this very post) that if you go with something that works for your group that I'm not going to say that's wrong. But if you argue that the ST *has* to listen to you and *must* run the game as is written? Yes, they're kind of a pussy for buying into that. Or you've browbeat them to the point that they gave in, in which cases you're a shitty player and they should kick you.
Did the Open Dev Blog post about the Ashwood Abbey get purged or something? I can't find it. Another post links to it, but it goes nowhere.
>>47668338
>If I'm the Storyteller, I get to arbitrarily decide what does and doesn't fly, and I feel that other Storytellers would also rule that you can't use Steadfast for a Wisdom roll.
And that's fine man, and it's honestly what I'd try and do were I GMing.
However it IS still a departure from the rules, and all I want to do is draw attention to it, so that the devs fucking fix it so I don't have to depart from the rules.
And if they don't, well then I've just got my "trying to escape consequences is Hubris" caveat.
>>47668242
>just as Touhou's desire for tighter rules comes with a streak of disdain for its developers
[citation needed]
>>47668415
Yeah, seriously. Asking the devs to put the work in for good rules isn't fucking disdain, it's asking for them to actually do their fucking jobs.
>>47668384
But like I keep saying, I don't care about departure from the rules. I don't need to be told that I can veto things. I want to focus on where rules are actually unclear. I want things that need to be fixed to be fixed. Like the fact that Firearms now never get penalized by defense, even at close range.
>>47668433
>>47668415
He wants them to go above and beyond and spell out every little detail. He also was condescending to Dave for everyone to see.
>>47668460
Aspel, shut the fuck up, that wasn't aimed at you. We know you suck dev dick at every chance, and saying anything that's not holy adoration is being condescending.
>>47668496
Disagreeing with you doesn't mean someone is sucking dev dick. Shouldn't you be over in the Pathfinder or 7th Sea thread complaining that everyone is a shill?
For fucks sake I literally just pointed out a stupid mechanic! Are you illiterate now as well?
>>47668496
Devs deserve better treatment than anyone in these threads.
Dave wrote Mage 2e.
All 2hu does is bitch about it. What has he ever done for us? Has he ever made a CofD game?
Dave DID make a Mage 2e game and deserves our utmost respect and good faith.
>>47669033
If you want your cock sucked for writing shit, head on over to RPG.net where you can have your hugbox. Otherwise, fuck off.
>>47669033
Complain about his bitching and lack of respect all you want, I'm like 95% sure 2hu's moderately autistic and can hardly help it.
Plus what he's doing is actually making a better game.
The more aware the debs are of the flaws in their system, the more easily they can fix it.
And even if they don't, that's another area that us GMs are forewarned of to nip in the bud before it becomes a problem.
>>47669138
>Go to some other hugbox and get out of my hugbox!
>>47669182
>And even if they don't, that's another area that us GMs are forewarned of to nip in the bud before it becomes a problem.
Did you really need someone to warn you that Magic lets you get bonuses to dice pools, so you could probably use it to get bigger dice pools for casting magic that lets you get bigger dice pools for casting magic...?
>>47667464
The spirits should also have to be at least one Rank lower than the Totem because I'm not sure an equal Rank spirit would be willing to follow the totem. Or at the very least their should be a limit to it.
Since the spirits would be loyal to the Totem, you should probably have it so you have to roll some dice and occasionally do some stuff for the Totem to see how many spirits you can wrangle into helping you and how strong they are.
>>47669230
I was more meaning the other, more eggregious flaws. Such as Steadfast ignoring Wisdom, and the linking of Status Merits.
Chaining spells to boost your dice pool higher and higher is more easily dealt with as Dave said through application of the Quick & Dirty magic rules.
>>47669182
>moderately
Don't undersell it. Wasn't 2hu banned? We should go back to that.
>>47668433
>>47668415
I'll admit, that's probably me reading too much into Touhou's tone more than anything. "Disdain" was too strong a word, and I apologize.
>>47669276
>Chaining spells to boost your dice pool higher and higher is more easily dealt with as Dave said through application of the Quick & Dirty magic rules.
Except... the trick near the start of the thread works EVERY TURN in a tense scene.
>>47669314
>Wasn't 2hu banned?
He hasn't posted in like 8 hours and 30 mins, but the second last one said he'd need to sleep soon.
So barring some more extended perior of silence.
I would say no.
>>47668355
http://theonyxpath.com/hunter-2e-open-dev-slashers-and-ashwood-abbey/
Monica was considering doing something with Ashwood since Hunter 2e will focus on Slashers as the marquee antagonist.
>>47669334
I neglected to read that one.
2 turns to get a Potency 20 Exceptional Luck based on casting Exceptional Luck 4 times as an Instant and then Reflexive action?
Utterly disgusting. That WILL need the Devs to look at it.
>>47669371
He's crying about how 2hu was banned by nazimod, literally years ago.
>>47669276
I don't even need someone to point out that I can use freebie granting merits to buy more freebies. Almost every character I make has Professional Training 3 to the point that I consider it a part of character creation for everyone to take it at no charge.
>>47669371
He's been permabanned before. He was banned like twice when he was trying to pretend that he wasn't himself, and kept talking about catboys. He was also banned when talking about shota mermaids. He has a tendency to play a ridiculously "anime" character, RP with the same personality he posts with, and rules lawyer every detail. Then when he gets banned, he tries to ask for a third opinion from 4chan that usually results in people telling him that he's autistic and was in the wrong.
>>47669402
Ah, thanks. This one links to it, but seemed to be broken. I know some places the discussion got pretty heated, so I was worried the whole thing was purged instead of pruned.
http://theonyxpath.com/hunter-2e-open-dev-tier-two-compacts-and-globalization/
>>47669433
The steps required are so byzantine that it honestly shouldn't matter. You as a player or group have to actively work towards that. You can't just stumble into it
>>47669484
This was after Nazimod. Unless Nazimod came back. This was only two years ago at most.
>>47669486
I care even less about what Touhou does outside of his posts here than I do about what you post outside of this thread. It's not like bans mean anything.
>>47669433
You can also get a Potency 14 Exceptional Luck as a reflexive action if you don't have any time to spare.
Broken as fuck.
>>47669596
2hu was banned in 2010.
Literally OVER HALF A DECADE AGO.
>>47669674
Jesus fuck, I've been browsing 4chan for almost eight years now. I need to re-examine all my life choices.
>>47669674
Did that whole Colette thing really happen that long ago?
>>47669659
You can if the ST allows it, which requires explaining to the ST the multiple steps that you're taking to do something ridiculous. Tell your ST what Adslahnit explains in those posts. Will they allow that? Would YOU allow that?
This isn't Magic the Gathering. You don't have to follow the programming instructions.
Why do we focus on THIS bullshit instead of actual problems?
Although admittedly most of my actual problems with CofD are in the core, like the fact that guns don't get penalized by Defense at all and the dice permutations are misleading, and a single skill to Defense is a bad idea, and certain rolls should be penalized if you don't have a specialty (riding a motorcycle, 'exotic weapons', etcetera), and Mental Skills should require specialties, and the character creation rules don't give enough Specialties or Merit dots, and...
>>47669783
I've been here since the beginning. Since the Long Long Ago, when the Moot rose from the Ocean of Piss and shat out /b/ onto the Internet. I remember the Habbo Hotel raids and the closing of the pool...
>>47669849
>This isn't Magic the Gathering. You don't have to follow the programming instructions.
Then why play the game in the first place? Why not just set up a Storium game in the setting or something?
>>47669659
I just checked the complete workings.
Fuck that in the eye.
Splitting up Boons is the stupidest thing they could permit.
Basically allowing you to blow all of your Luck in a single turn stacking 9-again atop of Potency bonus, atop of liberally applied Conditions. Using the dice trick to turn the chance die from ludicrously heavy negative modifiers into a normal die, then using a liberal application of Informed to work with a Rote/Spell.
Even with thouse though, Exceptional Luck still requires feedback to amplify its own effects to ludicrous Potency, meaning if you don't spend an entire turn providing at least one loop, then at best you can burn all of your initial Boons in one ludicrous OTHER spell.
>>47669971
"You do not have to follow the 100% letter of the rules" is not the same as "just ignore all of the rules nothing matters lol".
>>47670035
>Splitting up Boons is the stupidest thing they could permit.
Only if you take it to the maximum possible conclusion. They aren't expecting you to have 40 Potency to things. They aren't even expecting you to have 10.
>>47670066
But why would I have to play the game of figuring out which rules to follow and which to not, when I could just go play something where I don't have to do that song and dance?
>>47670035
Informed is hilarious because it works only on Skill rolls.
'Cept there's no such thing as a Skill roll in RAW because Onyx Path cannot into rules.
>>47670066
>Only if you take it to the maximum possible conclusion
Even at Potency 3, you can gain +3 to a spell, a 9-again trick and Informed/Steadfast.
Then with your next spell take the final modifier to -5 (maximum permitted before auto-failure), then use the 9-again to conver that chance die into a singular die, then Informed (or if you don't accept the Rote Mundra = skill roll, Steadfast), to automatically succeed.
Wham, automatic success any any spell cast within the turn at a low, low cost of 1 Mana, to activate the "affects spellcasting" option on Exceptional Luck. Assuming you would otherwise risk it dangerously with a Dice pool of 4, you've just been given a perfect success rate at that spell, with an additional 6 Potency (+3 modifier, taken to -5, initial dice pool 4 = 12, 12/2 = 6).
Plus you're getting that 4 free reach from the Rote, so it's doesn't even trigger Paradox on its own.
It.
Is.
Digusting.
Though admittedly even saying Steadfast/Inspired doesn't work on Magic would be sufficient to break its back.
>>47670193
Allow me to express your point in my own way.
Even in the absolute best case scenario wherein Skill rolls are given a formal definition in such a way that they exclude Mudra Yantras, and Informed's timing is cleared up such that it can never stack with Steadfast, Exceptional Luck is still degenerately powerful.
Consider the following trick, which requires no looping of Exceptional Luck at all, and uses only Steadfast for Conditions. Again, this requires a minimum of Gnosis 3 and Fate 2, and a Rote for Fate 2's Exceptional Luck; but since we are taking this to the logical extreme, let us assume a 0 XP mage with Gnosis 3, Fate 3, a Rote for Fate 2's Exceptional Luck, 5 dots in that Rote's Skill (let us call this the Rote Skill from henceforth), and an Order specialty in the Rote Skill.
Step #1: Cast Exceptional Luck with a Mudra Yantra. Two Reaches for casting it as a reflexive action for 1 Mana, and two Reaches to have it affect spellcasting. -2 spell factor for +1 Potency.
Dice pool: Gnosis 3 + Fate 3 + Mudra 6 - spell factors 2 = 10, for a ~96% chance of success.
Result: Potency 4 Exceptional Luck lasting for a turn. Allocated to 9-again or chance-die-to-regular-die to the next dice roll, a +2 dice bonus to the next two spellcasting actions, and Steadfast.
Step #2: Cast any other instant action spell, availing of the +2 dice bonus from Exceptional Luck. Crank down the dice pool to -5 using spell factors, transform the chance die into a regular die, and roll it, and then resolve Steadfast if it fails.
For the low price of 1 Mana and a reflexive action, you have supercharged your "real" spell and guaranteed its success.
>>47670172
The problem is that people are acting willfully incompetent about these things, like >>47670184.
"I wonder which rolls are skill rolls? It certainly isn't the ones DESCRIBED IN THE SKILLS SECTION".
You're always going to have to figure out which rules to follow and which not to. That's what RPGs are all about.
>>47670193
>>47670324
If you find it "disgusting", DON'T FUCKING ALLOW IT?
This is implicitly a game of fucking "Mother May I?" and you're acting like the answer must always be "yes, of course you may".
>>47670399
>If you find it "disgusting", DON'T FUCKING ALLOW IT?
Or just change it so it doesn't happen. The poster even suggests a fix that could be slipped in easy.
>>47670399
>It certainly isn't the ones DESCRIBED IN THE SKILLS SECTION
But what about when you're adding a Skill to a casting roll?
>>47670399
I know at least 3 GMs who would allow this on the basis that it was in the rules. Not everyone can immediately detect how broken a spell combination is, not even you can apparently since 2hufag repeatedly blows you out of the water when it comes to how far outside of a whiteroom the ridiculous aspects of the rules extend.
Why not have reasonably functional rules that don't require the GM to constantly audit the system mechanics, and instead do their actual fucking job (according to popular consensus) of making a setting and designing shit WITHIN said system, given it is an option?
>casting a spell called Exceptional Luck makes you really lucky!
Gee, who woulda thought that a spell to make you lucky... can make you really really really lucky even for spellcasting?
>>47670575
There's a difference between exceptional luck, and automatically succeeding at a ludicrously difficult spell most masters would struggle with given the most basic proficiency with a spell.
>>47670442
I'm fine with that poster's fix. I'm not fine with "This. Is. Disgusting." That's such a ridiculous statement.
>>47670452
Decide for yourself.I'd actually say no.
>>47670535
It is functional, though. He's also not extending anything out of the white room. This is a white room scenario, and even then his entire argument hinges on an ST allowing shenanigans that are overt. Just because you know bad STs who run games as RAW is God doesn't mean that's the norm.
The consensus is that this system does its job serviceable. That's why we're in a fucking persistent general talking about it, and even making pronouncements about which version does its job the best.
>>47670575
B-but you can always be lucky!
Frankly, other than Steadfast to perfectly cheese things, or an infinite loop, I have zero problems with this.
