>Previous Thread: >>47593588
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>Question
What was the last game you played?
Who's responsible for making Fate and Time's prewritten spells retardedly strong in Mage 2e?
>>47614899
I am.
>>47614644
>Played
V20. I've talked about it a couple times over the past week, I think; I'm playing an 8th Gen Brujah poncy asshole in a group with an 8th Gen Caitiff Private Investigator, a 12 Gen Ventrue Doctor, Caitiff Nurse(whose Domain is the hospital she and the Ventrue work at), and Gangrel(whose Domain is the city block he lives on).
We're playing in Chicago, in the 90s, and my ST is relying heavily on the 1e Chicago By Night book, based on the glancing I did at the wiki and the fact that he wants Tyler to be my Sire(because apparently adding in another 7th Gen to the area would screw up all the politics, and despite her only really fitting in terms of what her Generation is--I had a write-up for how my dude's Embrace went down, and I'm not sure she's really the type to stalk a guy for a few weeks, then step in to offer him the Embrace when he gets stabbed in an alley and left for dead)
>"Played"
Currently running a 2e Mage game, with an Acanthus, Obrimos, and Moros. Last/First session consisted of them meeting each other properly as a Cabal for the first time, then chasing down an android for killing a guy and taking his clothes. The Obrimos and Moros double-teamed him with some Forces and Matter spells to cut his power for a bit, then melt his joints into place so he couldn't move.Next session is gonna start with them walking him into the Obrimos's Sanctum, as the nanobots in his 'blood' start to fix his joints
>>47614899
I think the problem is there isn't a way to make them NOT strong. Fucking with stories is how both of the Arcanum operate by default.
>>47615033
You could start by not letting Exceptional Luck with a rote let you do basically anything.
Or not letting a 3 dot Time spell let your whole damn party go back in time a scene.
>>47615187
I mean, if you're really that badly messed up by the cabal going back a scene, you should probably railroad a little less hard.
I'd see that not as the story being ruined, but improved--instead of kidnapping the Acanthus's sister and throwing her in a cage in his Sanctum, the Seer gets stopped by the entire Cabal appearing from the future.
Or, instead of the Seer killing half the Cabal in the big fight, before he's finally killed, the group has to fight him a second time with half the group size, in order to save their friends.
Sure, it might give you headaches when you consider how the actual time travel affects shit(eg, is there now a duplicate of the cabal running around, because they didn't need to go back in time? The answer is no, because it's the simplest answer. Time also probably won't spazz out if you make contact with your past self, because Magic), but just apply Occam's Razor and you can get through it most of the time.
>>47615033
>Arcanum
Arcana.
>>47615381
Here's your (You)
Does anyone have some good examples from media that illustrate the idea behind tactics? Can be from movies or comics or anything really. The one I most commonly use isparanatural. The part in the dodgeball match where the kids use a bunch of fakes to get the blue eyed kid to jump right into the path of the switch ball is a pretty good example of the silver bullet tactic.
Is it easy for other supernatural beings to see a changeling/geist or is their "magical mind shield" snugger than the others?
>>47615731
A changeling's is very snug, I think it rivals a Demon's cover for "no."
A sin-eater/geist is as obvious as a vampire is; there's nothing physically wrong with them, but anyone who can sense the supernatural/ghosts/dead-magic can sense them uncontested.
>>47615785
Who has the worst magical mind shield then?
>>47615731
>>47615785
Changeling masks can be seen through by ANYONE with magical senses automatically in 2e.
>>47615881
Probably vampires, on account of not having one at all, and having all of their magic be very physical, "real" things.
Even werewolves have Lunacy and can hide in the Shadow.
>>47615881
I'd think Werewolf. Maybe Mummy.
I vaguely remember Vampires being able to smell Werewolves, and a Mage could spot them with Active Life Sight.
Plus, they turn into giant hairy war machines on a semi-regular basis. It doesn't get much less subtle than that.
>>47615731
You'd have to be able to see a Changeling's Soul or have a power that ignores all lies and illusions (like that one Supernatural merit from Vampire) to be able to see a Changeling's mein.
Demons have the best one, if it works right, it shields everything.
>>47615881
Mind Shield? Some groups just plain don't have one.
Protection against detection?
Vampires probably have the worst one, they have to activate it, it takes vitae, only works against powers which detect life signs, and it only works for a short while.
Most other factions are just modified humans, and to be able to see past that to the Supernatural angle, you usually have to see souls, or be on their wavelength.
Does anyone have the Mage Translation Guide? I can't seem to find it in the pastebins or download links.
I'm very curious how Geist works in making their own folklore and roles. Anyone have any online examples or something so I can get a good idea on what to do?
>>47614644
I can't find anyone playing cWoD online!
Where should I go to find a group?
I've tried:
Mythweavers
Onyx Path Forums
And Roll20 Forums
No luck at all.
Anywhere else?
>>47617007
Yeah in the 90's, that's where all the old worlders losers are.
>>47617007
Wait for a VTMB thread on /v/ and ask there, I'm sure one or two would join. I would, but english is not my first language.
>>47617007
http://thefinalcrossroads.com/
>>47617381
Wrong setting for the the poster wants.
>>47617007
You may want to consider oWoD MUSHes, though they're more free form than regular game. I'm honestly surprised there's slim pickings on Roll20 of all places, though.
Worst comes to worst, you might just have to start your own game.
>>47617554
World of Darkness MUSHes are shit, don't touch them
In oWoD/x20 , do 1s subtract successes on damage rolls?
>>47617592
Yeah. And it's unfortunate, because the theory of "mass games" is actually p fucken awesome. The HBO drama: talk, talk, talk, action.
But in reality it's just a bunch of harpy cunts cybering the ST and then acting as a peanut gallery to anybody who actually wants to play the fucking game.
>>47617631
Yes.
>>47617219
Why the OWoD hate?
>>47617381
>>47617280
>>47617554
Thanks for the Suggestions gents, I love /Tg/, Everyone here is always so much more willing to be helpful than anywhere really.
>>47616027
>Vampires probably have the worst one, they have to activate it, it takes vitae, only works against powers which detect life signs, and it only works for a short while.
What? Obfuscation is one of the best powers for avoiding detection in the game. Because of the way it works, you can just go all John Cena on anyone but a Mage with Active Mind Sight up and they'll ignore you.
>>47617878
He was talking Blush of Life, which is the thing ALL vampires have, that lets them seem human, which is what the discussion was about: Seeming human, not necessarily going unnoticed entirely.
>>47616202
unfortunately for you the implementation of that stuff was **FUCKING TERRIBLE.**
That said, check out baroness nerak's "balance of shadows" actual play. It's good.
>>47617798
Isn't it ironic that 4chan is the most helpful place on the Internet and yet it's painted as the epitome of evil?
>>47617999
Oh, my bad.
>>47616202
>>47618043
I absolutely fucking hate the Krewe system. If your Krewe is anything beyond simply a bunch of jackasses who hang out with each other, it gets really fucking stupid.
When you decide to use the Krewe Binding Ceremony, your krewe all undergo a trance and your Geists transsubstantiate into something different, taking on a new Aspect. You thought your geist was one thing? No, the Geist then reveals to you that it was something different the entire time. I often use the example that the Geist reveals that it was Santa Claus the whole time, and that's honestly not too far off. The sample Krewe has their geists become: A future reincarnation of themselves known as Chakravartin who will usher in the ghostpocalypse, a representative of anyone who has ever been martyred for their beliefs known as the Unknown Martyr, and the Marquis de Sade. He claims to have always been the Marquis de Sade, but didn't say anything because it would be boring.
The Krewe Channel also gives them a vision of the SEKRIT TRUTH of the world, something that is never mentioned or cared about elsewhere in the book, much like all of the Krewe features. The sample characters learn that a distant God created the world, and the Underworld is the result of humans using their freedom to sin. Reincarnation exists, but ghosts are trapped and obsessed, and only Geists are enlightened enough. They believe that a generic God wants them to liberate themselves and others from spiritual falsehoods.
It's worth noting that the *characters* have no real say in this, so no matter what the fluff is that your character believes this bullshit. There's not even any sort of explanation of why anyone believes this when it can contradict actual observations, and relies on "well, MY religion is the right one" style bullshit that Geist actively goes against elsewhere. The inability to realize that your Geist isn't a God is literally the mark of one of the antagonists.
>>47618311
On top of this, you can actually run away and rebind with another Krewe, or even just join up with a krewe that already had their revelation--based on the founder's own personal beliefs--and then you get the same revelation and change, only this time the Channel doesn't actually consider your character's thoughts and feelings, so you literally have to be indoctrinated into it like a cult.
Don't even get me started on how the only benefit of this is the Merits, and even then most of them are for Tier 2 or 3 Krewes that I honestly don't think anyone in the history of Geist has ever used, because they're stupid and this book was edited by fucking Scribendi.com.
>>47618255
A man raped and murdered a woman and posted her corpse on /b/, people have repeatedly created hoaxes to trick people into breaking their electronics or inhaling toxic chemicals, and it's the source of one of the most whiny petulant manbaby social movements in recent years. And that's just off the top of my head.
>>47617762
I see. I bring this up because my players are getting very frustrated about rolling well on to-hit, and then having 1s eating their damage. Has anyone ever tried to houserule this? Any good fixes?
>>47618400
>it's the source of one of the most whiny petulant manbaby social movements in recent years
Which movement is that?
>>47618508
The one that must not be named for fear of starting an argument.
>>47618400
>>47618311
You know, you could have just answered the anon's question or ignored it instead of going on the same rant you always do about it. >>47618043 answered it pretty well and actually gave a recommendation for something for the anon to read.
Anyways, I second Balance of Shadows, it's a very good example of how to work with Geist's material in an effective way.
>>47618912
He said it was fucking terrible. I explained why. Not everyone has seen all my posts about Geist's problems before, especially since I haven't mentioned that one in like a year.
>>47618876
GamerGate?
>>47618876
Pretty sure that one was /v/'s doing, though the instigating factor was posted on nearly every nerd-related website in existence so a number of sites could take a share in the responsibility.
So, another Mage/Changeling question: Could a Mage use Exceptional Luck to grant a Boon that boosts Wits+Composure rolls? The book says that it "usually" applies to rolls of a Skill, but there's no Awareness Skill in CoD - that's why formal training in observation is modeled by a Merit instead.
This can be quite important, not just because spotting an enemy ambush can make a difference between life and death, but also because in 2e, Changelings roll Wits+Composure whenever they encounter a Breaking Point, and if they succeed, then they get the Acuity condition (that grants an additional point of Clarity when it Resolves), which means that a Changeling with a friendly Fate Mage will promptly rocket up to Clarity 10 and then stay there more-or-less indefinitely, and that in turn means that they'll be more-or-less immune to hostile Supernal magic as long as they've got Willpower to spend and they know a spell's incoming (which isn't difficult when they can reflexively roll 10 dice to detect magic). "Sure, I've only got Composure 1. What's that, you want to mind control me? Have fun trying to beat a Withstand of 11."
>>47618933
You went into a two post rant because you couldn't just say "it's inconsistent with the themes of Geist and the social structures of Krewes." It's hardly an explanation.
>>47618954
Let's not forget the reality that it would've been a weekend affair if that if the entire Internet hadn't of made a concerted effort to suppress discussion of it entirely, 4chan included.
Setting aside that this kind of behavior makes the ideas correct by default (since there's no dispute of their validity, just their suppression), 4chan was actively part of the campaign to suppress it. Blaming this on 4chan is historically inaccurate.
>>47618255
4chan can be helpful at times. Doesn't change that fact that the majority of threads are just small flamewars.
>>47618976
No touhou pics with your annoying power gaming this time?
>>47618954
Oh, "it" meant 4chan, not necessarily /b/. I mean, /pol/ and /r9k/ are also on this site. And yeah, it's definitely a sentiment that's been brewing for a while, bu-->>47618999 and this is why I dared not speak it's name!
>>47618992
I went into detail about how specifically it is inconsistent. How is that hardly an explanation?
>>47619019
Imageboards are really just a distillation of the internet as a whole, for the most part. They're like forums but faster.
>>47619042
I'm not Touhoufag, just another random poster. That's why I posed it as a question. ;)
I do remember when Touhoufag was posting DnD 4e builds, though, way back when.
>>47618976
You don't add your power/morality stat to Withstand. It's just your attribute.
>>47619150
In 2e, Changelings can add their Clarity to their Resistance Attribute instead of the usual +3 dice to Contest/-2 dice to Resist bonus from spending Willpower, when they're affected by non-Wyrd-based magic (e.g Werewolf Gifts, Mage Spells, Vampire Disciplines, etc.) It's one of the special abilities they get.
>>47619225
>Clarity can also help a changeling resist magic. Any time she could spend Willpower to add to a Contested roll, or subtract from a Resisted roll, her Clarity can replace the normal +3 or -2 it’d confer.
Mage spells are neither Contested or Resisted. They are Withstood.
This does absolutely nothing for a Changeling dealing with a Mage.
>>47619852
Spending Willpower increases the Resistance Attribute (which is the only function by which WP helps resisted rolls), which explicitly helps against Withstanding, so logically their Clarity helps too.
>>47619984
That's up to you and your ST to decide. RAW, there's nothing saying it would, though, and Resisting a roll and Withstanding a spell are entirely different--one subtracts one die per point, the other straight up prevents the spell from happening unless they've got a high enough Potency, which effectively doubles the penalties they'd have to take for it.
Paying 1 WP to make an enemy take an extra -10 on a roll is strong, and harsh, but it doesn't entirely protect you in a lot of cases.
Paying 1 WP to make an enemy have to take a minimum of -12 on their roll, if they're a Master, or a maximum of -22, if they're an Initiate, in order to have ANY chance of affecting you at all, is straight up OP.
TL;DR it doesn't work that way, because adding to your Withstand basically doubles the effect you get out of adding to your Resistance.
>>47616027
Wrong again, Aspel.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2K8R3qXyDyoUTRSemVyb3k1QTA/view
>Fae beings, ensorcelled mortals, and other supernaturals with mystical senses can see through the Mask.
>>47620129
>Paying 1 WP to make an enemy take an extra -10 on a roll is strong, and harsh, but it doesn't entirely protect you in a lot of cases.
>Paying 1 WP to make an enemy have to take a minimum of -12 on their roll, if they're a Master, or a maximum of -22, if they're an Initiate, in order to have ANY chance of affecting you at all, is straight up OP.
What the fuck are you on about? Potency costs -2 to increase. Willpower only costs you -4 by default, and that's assuming you weren't already sitting at more Potency than you needed.
>>47619984
The quibbling RAW rules lawyer argument will be that it increases Withstand, not Resistance, so it's not the same thing. I would say that's dumb.
Although it IS massively protective. Honestly, +Clarity to the roll will probably be downgraded, because that's already pretty fucking strong and nullifies most Contested rolls, and definitely most Resisted rolls.
>>47620180
Uh, a) that wasn't me, b) "mystical senses" are needed, c) I hope that's changed, because honestly one of the things I liked about the Mask is that it prevented anyone from seeing through it besides your splat. Even if mechanically it was only -3. It's not like being a Sleepwalker or avoiding Lunacy.
>>47620216
They're talking about if Changelings add Clarity to Withstand.
>>47620240
>They're talking about if Changelings add Clarity to Withstand.
Yes, in the latter (-12 to -22) case, but that doesn't work out either. Changlings higher than Wyrd 5 will be vanishingly rare, like every other splat elder, so realistically the changeling is only lobbing another -6 on for a total of -10--again, assuming you were already neck and neck with them for Potency, which you probably won't be since you can just target their worst Resistance attribute with the right spell.
>>47620261
>Changlings higher than Wyrd 5 will be vanishingly rare
I don't think I've ever dropped in Morality, and Changelings can regain Clarity for free.
>>47620261
Clarity, m8, not Wyrd.
Changelings can add their Clarity, their Integrity-replacement, to their Resisted and Contested stuff.
You're looking at, on average, probably a +5 to your relevant trait, but he was arguing that a Changeling should be able to add to their Withstand which adds, on average(at Clarity 5), -12 necessary for a 1-dot spell to affect them if they've got 1 dot in their Withstand attribute for the spell. -10 to equal them, an extra -2 to actually have any effect with the spell because of the way Withstand works.
Something that could affect Apparently there's rumors flying around that Tencent, a major Chinese Web and video game company, is looking to purchase Paradox Interactive. While I doubt it might actually happen, I do wonder what'll happen to White Wolf AB in the event that such a buyout occurs. I suppose it'd come down to whether or not Tencent would see it as a useful endeavor.
>>47620326
>Characters may only spend Willpower to increase a Resistance Attribute used for Withstanding if they are aware of a spell being cast upon them.
When Changelings spend Willpower to increase their Resistance Attribute, they add Clarity instead. It's pretty tanky (and I'm not sure it fits with Changelings), but it's kosher.
>>47620503
They're not looking to purchase Paradox, they took out a 5% share in the company's stock. They want to help Paradox break into the Chinese market, same as they do with other companies.
>A long-time fan of Paradox games, Tencent will work to explore opportunities with Paradox to build up the emerging grand strategy, simulation, and story-driven RPG fan bases in China. Tencent has a history of supporting new game genres in China, where it operates globally renowned titles such as League of Legends, Cross-Fire, Dungeon & Fighter, Call of Duty Online, FIFA Online and Need for Speed, as well as many popular locally-developed games. Tencent also has a track record of building strong partnership with game industry leaders, such as Activision Blizzard, Riot Games, CJ Netmarble and Miniclip, via equity investment and support in distribution and operations.
https://www.paradoxinteractive.com/en/paradox-interactive-listing-attracts-tencent-as-fan-and-long-term-investor/
>>47620592
>Resistance Attribute, they add Clarity instead
Sounds pretty bullshit, given how infuriating Withstand is if you're not fishing for Exceptional Successes.
>>47620592
>>47620617
Don't worry, just have the mage go for an exceptional success and they can blow past Withstand.
>>47620744
Which requires a ludicrous dice pool without a Praxis.
Or well, just use spells that don't modify their Pattern, and all their Withstand don't mean dick.
>>47620815
Like Temporal Summons (only has to beat Temporal Sympathy), or Present as Past/Prophecy, or just shit all over their contracts with Fate.
Fate/Time solves everything!
Do you think a Seer and a Diamond Order member could maintain an amicable friendship?
In other words, how tightly is a Seer's collar? I get that many lower ranked members frequently join with the aim of protecting the Unawakened from the various monsters that plague the night. Of course they rarely progress higher or live long, lacking the cuthroat ambition necessary or being pre-emptively culled as a threat to their Superiors.
>>47620902
I'm legitimately surprised Temporal Summoning isn't Withstood or something. I would expect that to be errata'd, since it's a spell that effects another person.
>>47620926
A friend has a game where they went to a Seer's barbecue. He's phenomenally powerful, but afraid of becoming an Archmaster because then the leash really will be too tight. Something like that.
>>47620943
>Temporal Summoning isn't Withstood or something
Unless you only want to manifest Unchanged changes, which are minor to put it lightly, then you need Temporal Sympathy, which incurs Withstand.
>>47620959
Temporal sympathy Withstand isn't bad at all.
You'll need some premade stick figures for the yantra though.
SCION SPOILERS WHEN
>>47620959
Yeah, but I mean the core default effect. It's changing someone. Sure, it's minor, but think about it this way: Someone gets healed. You reverse time so that their wounds are open, then shoot the healer in the face. That's essentially free, as far as Withstand goes.
>>47620979
I really hope that's errata'd to say there's a minimum standard for quality just so that you people quit with that bullshit. At least when Dresden used voodoo on the werewolf he was using a Snoopy as representational Sympathy.
>>47620980
>Neall said the blog post for Callings was supposed to up this weekend
>a decent way int Sunday and still nothing
reeeeee
>>47621021
>sympathy air, the same air they're breathing
>picture of planet earth, where they were born
>blank birth certificate, representing their certificate before it was filled out
>>47621070
Why are all the premade Acanthus spells so fucking cheeky and overly broad?
>>47621095
messing with time and fate isn't an exact science
>>47621095
Because Mages are the best, and Arcadians are the best Mages.
I know it sucks you Awoke as an Obrimos, but someone has to fill the the special needs quota
>>47621134
To be fair, Obrimos are a LOT better if your game is Mage-only (as opposed to herpa derpa crossover everything goes), because then you can dick around with Prime and shit all over other mages.
Then again, isn't dispelling magic a lot worse now?
>>47621149
>Then again, isn't dispelling magic a lot worse now?
Yes.They took everything that made Prime good (counterseplling, dispelling, Mana vacuuming, Phantasms) and stamped on them over and over and over. Then they took the remains, mixed them with shit, threw a terrible Mage Armor ontop and told us to just deal with it.
>>47621149
>>47621160
>Supernal Dispellation, 1e
>no mana
>sensory range
>just have to beat the spell's Potency
>Supernal Dispellation, 2e
>have to spend 2 Reach and 1 Mana to make it a Lasting dispel
>touch range by default
>have to beat Withstand of caster's arcanum dots, or arcanum dots +2 if they used Advanced Potency
Doesn't it feel GREAT to be an Obrimos now?
Fuck this shit, I'm making an Acanthus instead.
>>47621149
You need a dot in all Arcanum the target spell's using, and unless you reach, it merely suppresses the spell.
On the upside, you only need to beat Withstand equal to the Arcanum rating, not the Potency. So if they're using hyper-potency bullshit, you can still break it in half with but a spell.
Consider a Master of Prime who has a Rote in Dispel Magic.
He can quite easily spend 2 of his 5 Reach (and one Mana) to make his Dispel lasting, and tear to shreds every spell he likes, with at most a -2 modifier to beat a Master's own spells.
Though you do still need all those Arcanum...
>>47621160
But, but, but..., Prime is now "truthy!"
>>47621160
>>47621174
Let's not forget that Fate and Time are now the best at recharging Mana/WP at 2/3/4 dots, or Death/Mind/Spirit for Mana at 5 dots.
>>47621174
>touch range by default
Or just cast it as an Aimed spell.
Rolling Gnosis + Athletics/Firearms - Defense.
>>47621202
It sure is helpful that Fate and Time have the best damn Mage Armors around, eh?
Mother of fuck, you know Time mages can be literally ageless with Time 2, right? What the fucking Christ.
>>47621095
>>47621174
I'm reading Dave's Washington DC actual-play right now.
In it the Acanthus characters (both PC and NPC) are invariably the best and most powerful characters. Likewise he has only one major Obrimos NPC and they're a Priest who hates using Prime to create Mana because he sees it as magical vampiism. And when two characters are talking about other Paths they might have liked to have been, a PC says he would like to try being an Obrimos and the NPC responds flatly that he despises them.
Mage 2e is basically Dave re-interpreting Mage to suit his own viewpoint, and unfortunately Dave hates Obrimos and their arcana.
>>47621221
Shut up touhoufag.
Also space give a bonus to defense and with a mana and successfully dodging an attack can redirect it. That to me is the best one.
>>47620979
That's not a sympathetic connection. It has no ties to the target.
>>47621263
Motherfucker if that was Adslahnit you'd know. He is physically incapable of posting without his numerous idiosyncrasies.
Also, Mind can make you flat out give up.
>>47621248
I don't think Dave even wrote the individual Arcana.
>>47621263
You know, the fact that 2hufag is so autistic really works against you here.
If he's posting, he WILL POST a picture. It's a compulsion. So your autistic cries of anyone who is posting something I don't like is him just flat out doesn't work.
>>47621248
Acanthus are good only if you believe 2hu shilling them so hard.
>>47621291
>I don't think Dave even wrote the individual Arcana.
But as the dev he instructed the writers on what he wanted and approved their results.
>>47621263
Space doesn't work on surprise attacks, though I guess that doesn't matter so much for Space.
Fate/Time > Mind/Space > everything else.
>>47621304
Honestly I don't care about Acanthus, I'm an Obrimos lover who is butthurt as fuck about them shitting all over my pet Path. Temporal sympathy is just another avenue of complaint.
>>47621291
Mind is a good one, but its doesn't give defend against guns.
Im not arguing against Mind it's fantastic like most of the Mage Armors.
>>47621291
>Also, Mind can make you flat out give up.
Still have to punch through Withstand for that.
Present as Past/Prophecy though? No Withstand for those. Go up to someone and convince them to do what you want. Works 100% of the time if there's ANY chance they can be convinced.
>>47620617
With a lot of spells you can get around that by casting it as an area of effect thing. So many spells are save or lose anyway that I'm perfectly fine with Changelings being a bit hardier.
Chaos Mastery is going to escape errata/FAQ, isn't it, lads?
>>47621337
No you don't Supernatural can oppose it with a Clash of Wills.
Did you even read any of the armors?
>>47621370
We're not talking about Mage Armors.
We're talking about Time 4 letting you insta-win any Social Maneuvering with no resistance. Dave says that's working as intended.
>>47621387
Firstly the Mind was a responce to my comment of Space armor so yes its about fucking Mind Armor.
Also the Time Spell needs a potency per door. While Mind would need to simply get past Resolve to remove ALL doors. So I think Minds win in that regards as well.
>>47621387
When did Dave ever say that.
>>47621355
Already getting errata'd. It's not Potency+Fate.
>>47621355
Chaos Mastery: When you wanna do literally anything another spell can do.
>>47621355
Dave's already confirmed that it's going to be rewritten entirely.
>>47621327
So ignore Prime and just focus on Forces, then. It's busted as hell. Go and make a Legacy with Life or Matter, and become a superhero that punches bad guys to death or something.
>>47621416
Uh huh, you know Present as Past/Prophecy has MINIMUM Potency 4, right?
>>47621417
>When did Dave ever say that.
A few threads ago.
>>47621429
But I liked Prime. It was my favorite.
And how is Forces "busted as hell"?
>>47621436
Im just pointing out Mind does it better. Of targeting one resistance stat rather then the lower of two + other factors.
Also the mind spell would also have a base potency of 4. So your point was meaningless.
>>47621446
Forces is a hell of a lot more likely to get hit by Dissonance than Fate/Time/Mind/Space, so that's a major limitation.
Forces also has one of the more meh Mage Armors.
>>47621460
But then you're doing LITERAL mind control, and that's no so good because everyone else can detect that with their magical senses, supernaturals often have powers to counter exactly that, and even Fate lets you do a Clash of Wills to counter it.
There's basically no resistance to Present as Past/Prophecy.
>>47621468
I agree, but anon seemed to suggest it was actually good and I wasn't realizing.
Why must Dave kill my hope
>>47621417
Dave's comment about Chaos Mastery and how it's currently fucked up.
http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/47578117/#47579356
>>47621468
And it's attainments at 2 & 4 dots are terrible. Just like Primes for that matter.
>>47621479
Basically, the ONLY ways to detect Present as Past/Prophecy is to have something that specifically detects ALL magic (like Mage Sight).
And AFTER you've gone and hit someone with it, there's no way to detect it at all, because then it's no different from mundane persuasion.
>>47621479
>>47621507
You act like present as past can't be detected or something. While the spell is in effect you gain the benefits. So you need the spell up for it to work. And by God your spell can be knowdeced.
And while yes its not resisted its still has to do more work then the Mind Spell.
I wanna talk about some kindred of the ebony kingdom stuff, what you guys think about the concept in general.
And Abombwe.
I fucking love Abombwe.
>>47621522
You only need Present as Past/Prophecy up for one turn.
>>47621529
Whats the ebony kingdom?
>>47621355
This is my favorite spell
>>47621547
Bunch of nigger vampires I reckon
>>47621547
African vampires, basically, with their own bloodlines working as clans and their own disciplines/some alterations on already existing disciplines.
>>47621584
Alright another question then Owod or CofD?
Because I'm more knowledgeable about CofD.
>>47621446
Invisibility + Control Sound + Kinetic Blow. All Forces 2, and they let you invisibly and silently sneak up behind a dude, and then literally punch his head off.
The potency of its buffs in general rival anything Fate can do; each individual spell is perhaps less flexible, but if you want to literally turn yourself into Superman, then Forces is the way to go. Telekinetic superstrength, invulnerability, superspeed, flight, heat vision, super senses, it's all in there.
>>47621598
Owod
http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Kindred_of_the_Ebony_Kingdom
>>47621387
I guess this is more a problem with the social maneuvering system than anything, but that's stupid because sometimes you can convince someone of something, but you need to badger them over and over again do to laziness or stubbornness.
>>47621608
Kinetic Blow isn't really that good. Primary factor being Potency kinda sucks, and it's not much better than blasting the fuck out of someone with a suppressed firearm.
Helps that firearm suppressors are unrealistically effective in CofD.
>>47621436
When I say "when" I meant give me a citation.
>>47621722
Technically how the spell works is that you run through all possible combinations and find the best one, which allows you to preemptively get through Doors. It's not mind control as people have suggested, it's brute forcing the problem, then choosing the best possible solution like a speedrun. Frankly, I wouldn't allow it to decrease all the Doors, unless there were only a few. Something like "convince them to do something against their morals" would require a lot more than saying the right word.
Also, I like the social maneuvering system and wish it was used for more. That's why I used resisting torture as a Social Maneuver.
>>47621737
>Increased Accuracy: A suppressed firearm travels through a longer barrel and the muzzle crown evens the expulsion of hot gasses that can slightly affect trajectory. In game terms, reduce a suppressed gun’s damage rating by –1 due to the bullet’s subsonic flight, but increase the attack dice pool by +2 when firing at short range.
Daily reminder that the CofD writers think suppressors make guns more accurate.
>>47621771
Citation on Present as Past/Prophecy working as intended here: >>47571857
>>47621290
It's symbolic sympathy
>Symbolic sympathy includes indirect representations of
>the subject — a person’s sympathetic name, drawings,
>caricatures, or posed and costumed photographs.
>>47621782
http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/how-do-suppressors-affect-accuracy/
>Are sound suppressors useful in competition shooting? In some disciplines, and in venues where sound “moderators” are permitted, the answer is “yes”.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/suppressors-what-you-need-to-know/
>Modern Suppressors Are Superior to Older Designs — And May IMPROVE Your Accuracy
Historically, suppressors had rubber baffles that slowed down the bullets and ruined accuracy. Modern suppressors don’t have any of these drawbacks. While you’ll find competing viewpoints as to whether a suppressor-equipped rifle is more inherently accurate than a rifle with a bare muzzle (or muzzle brake), in practice many shooters shoot better with a suppressed rifle due to psychological and physiological factors — call it “shootability”. With less noise, less barrel hop, and less felt recoil — thanks to the suppressor — many shooters can achieve greater accuracy, shot after shot.
I'm not actually sure whether it makes the bullet weaker, though.
>>47621826
A stick figure isn't a symbolic representation of a specific person, it's a generic fucking stick. Otherwise I can draw a dot and say it's a person. THIS PENCIL REPRESENTS THE PERSON.
If there isn't a bare minimum of quality and reasonable common sense connection, then that's fucking useless and you know it.
>>47621959
>A stick figure isn't a symbolic representation of a specific person
It is if it's drawn with intent. Otherwise you'd run into issues of "how well drawn does it have to be" which aren't mentioned.
>>47621967
Sensory range also isn't mentioned, because they assume common sense on the part of the reader. Issues of how well drawn does it have to be are up to the troupe, but "better than a stick figure" is a good rule of thumb. It's a yantra. It's a mnemonic device meant to aid in forming an Imago. A stick figure doesn't help you form an Imago to better visualize a real live person.
>>47621737
Make it a Rote, and Reach for Enhanced Duration, Instant Casting, and two Reach's worth of options (e.g. to apply both the Knocked Down and Stunned Tilts to anyone you punch, or to apply one Tilt and let it apply to held weapons).
And since the Stunned Tilt prevents the victim from acting for one round and halves their Defense, it means that you can pretty consistently stunlock a single target to death as long as you can land a single punch on them after you cast the rote.
That's not the only good buff, either. There's also shit like Forces 3's Turn Momentum (bounce bullets off of your chest like Superman), Forces 3's Velocity Control (gotta go fast), hell, even Forces 1 has a bunch of decent buffs in the form of Kinetic Efficiency and the super-senses spells.
>>47621982
How does a single hair?
It's the thought that counts.
>>47622017
Because a single hair from that literal person is not representative, it's a connection specifically to them. One part of the whole.
>>47621737
The benefit to Kinetic Blow is being a DBZ character.
>>47622008
Kinetic Blow as a rote is still ass because you're going up against lolDefense. Good luck hitting the assholes who stacked Defense.
Turn Momentum takes Time 1 to use against firearms.
>>47622008
>Reach for Enhanced Duration, Instant Casting, and two Reach's worth of options (e.g. to apply both the Knocked Down and Stunned Tilts to anyone you punch, or to apply one Tilt and let it apply to held weapons)
You'll still have only Potency 1 for that, so you need to take penalties.
>>47619852
Mage spells aren't resisted, but there are effects that contest them (like Mind Shields). Spending 1WP to contest spells with Clarity seems reasonable.
>>47622104
Don't forget that Fate 2 gives just as good a mind shield as Mind, if not better, because Acanthus master race, amirite, Dave?
>>47621959
>If there isn't a bare minimum of quality and reasonable common sense connection, then that's fucking useless and you know it.
Is this okay?
>>47622143
Actually, now that I look at it... there IS no fucking "shield yourself from mental control" spell under Mind. You have to creative thaumaturgy that shit up.
Fate DOES get a better "shield yourself from mental control" spell at 2 dots.
What the fuck.
>>47621771
>It's not mind control as people have suggested
Nobody suggested it was mind control, you dumbshit Aspel.
It's BETTER than mind control, because it's not actually mind control.
>>47622143
I... uh. I'm not Dave.
>>47622169
That's exactly what Dave would say if he was trying not to be noticed
>>47622169
Basically just joking about how DaveB is pushing Acanthus and Fate/Time really hard. See >>47621248
>>47622165
There is Mental Shield, but it doesn't cover anything you didn't tell it too. Also, you have to spend Reach for every type of source of mind control.
>>47622174
Oh... then I'm totally Dave. Yeah!
>>47622193
Aha, yeah, that's right.
So let's get this straight, you have to spend a handful of Reaches for a catch-all "shield yourself from mental compulsion," but Fate gets a catch-all "shield yourself from mental compulsion" at 2 dots without Reach?
>>47622104
Mage spells are Withstood, and you Withstand with your Resistance attributes, which can be increased by +2 with a Willpower. Changelings instead add +Clarity.
Crossover is not a priority, honestly, and if you feel it should be different in your game then so be it.
>>47622159
No.
>>47622167
Okay. "No one said this dumb thing, they said this dumber thing". Good job.
We're into the Diplomancer problem, where people are expecting the ST to just allow someone to use mundane convincing to make someone do literally anything. It's not better than mind control. "I tell him to kill himself, then remove all of his Doors with a Time spell" is not better than mind control because that doesn't fucking work, I don't care how many Doors you remove. Meanwhile an actual mind control spell goes "shoot yourself" and they eat a bullet.
>>47622206
It seems so. If it's not errata'd I will face the general direction of Britain and pout indignantly.
>>47622213
Present as Past/Prophecy is great because it's NOT mind control. It's for long-term politics.
Vampires have some badass mind control, but they can't rely on it for politics because it'll get detected by the target or someone else, it's short term, and everyone else gets pissy over it.
Opening Doors though, that's REALLY hard to detect after the fact. It's long term, and nobody can get pissy about it because it's technically just mundane persuasion.
>>47622193
Mind 2e is a mixed bag.
For instance, under Mind 2, spells like Psychic Domination are *very* powerful, but Mind Shield is little more than a barely effective Reach sink (and has Potency as a Primary Factor despite the fact it does absolutely nothing for the spell).
At least Mind is better than Forces and Prime...
>>47622213
>Mage spells are Withstood, and you Withstand with your Resistance attributes, which can be increased by +2 with a Willpower. Changelings instead add +Clarity.
I backtracked and realized I got this completely wrong. Thanks.
>No.
Gasp! I take back my gratitude.
>>47622239
the problem is that you cannot make someone do LITERALLY ANYTHING by opening doors. There are certain situations that people will walk away from.
Social maneuvering requires that the "attacking" party set the stakes. The "defensive" party is completely free to say "no" to the set stakes.
>>47622254
Know Nature, Psychic Domination, and Augment Mind are really good, but the rest of it seems... kinda okayish, I guess?
Still pretty much Fate/Time > Mind/Space > everything else.
>>47622063
>Kinetic Blow as a rote is still ass because you're going up against lolDefense. Good luck hitting the assholes who stacked Defense.
Not if you've made yourself invisible!
>Turn Momentum takes Time 1 to use against firearms.
Yes, and? It's not like it's a big dip, or a weak Arcanum.
>>47622082
Okay, so fairly reasonable (non-minmaxed) starting character. Gnosis 1 + Forces 3 + Rote Mudra 4 + Mantra 2 = 10 dice. Subtract six dice for increased Potency, and you're rolling four dice for the spell, and if you succeed (and you probably will), your hands will hit harder than a two-handed sword, in addition to automatically inflicting fairly nasty Tilts on whoever you hit, which then lets you literally curbstomp them to death as they helplessly lay on the ground.
>>47622265
Is there ANY chance they could be convinced?
Yes: Great! Social Maneuvering is on the table. Use Present as Past/Prophecy to instantly convince them.
No: Well you're still a mage with Time 4 who can go back in time, cast spells back in time, read the future, etc. etc.
>>47622272
Three spells to kill the fuck out of someone vs. one spell to just Ban them with no Withstand.
I think I know what I'm going with.
>>47622282
That's fine, but my point is that it's fundamentally different from mind control.
>>47622267
Don't forget Summon Goetia. You can do shit like summoning Iron Man to teach you how to build a suit of (presumably non-magical) power armor, or summoning the incarnation of humanity's understanding of the Sun to burn a bunch of Vampires to death by using the Sunlight Influence.
>>47622239
Actually a lot of Vampire mind control is long term. There's even a 2e Dominate is really good, and I'm honestly too lazy to look it up, but there's a few Devotions that are good, too. Oh, and that's ignoring blood binding. Like I said, and like >>47622265 reiterates, though, you can't do anything and everything. People are going to still have their limits, even if you go through all 100 scenarios. Also, with a decent potency this would reduce Doors to the point that you only need one roll, so it's far from long term. Standard social maneuvering is more along the lines of buttering people up or hassling them until they say "Yes". That's one of the reasons I say that you shouldn't be able to just bust through ALL of the Doors. Sometimes no matter how well you know the future, you still have to play it out.
>>47622282
It doesn't even say or imply that it's instant. In fact, it implies that you know what to do because in your mind you've played it out. You still have to go through the motions, which means taking as much time as the normal social maneuvering would require. You know that if you talk about his mom he'll like you more, and then when you give him the vodka he'll be willing to budge a little, then you finally ask for the MacGuffin and he likes you well enough that he gives you a bit of information.
To use Madoka as an example, going through and reliving the future to try different things doesn't always work, because sometimes there's no solution.
>>47622323
Bump up Potency to, like, 5 or 6 and you can open up ALL the Doors.
>>47622323
>which means taking as much time as the normal social maneuvering would require
Noooooooooot really, because Social Maneuvering succeeds once you've opened up all Doors, and you're using a spell to just flat out open up all the Doors.
>>47622295
>Three spells to kill the fuck out of someone vs. one spell to just Ban them with no Withstand.
>I think I know what I'm going with.
And if you do that, you're going to be leaving your Signature Nimbus everywhere, while if you're casting spells on yourself, you won't be; your spells are all targeting yourself, so while you yourself will be coated in your Nimbus, your victim won't be.
Then, afterwards, you can light yourself on fire, and destroy all the bits of blood and gore and DNA evidence that are stuck to your hands and clothes.
>>47621446
Personally I just love Gravity control. It's basically an imprecise, extremely powerful telekinesis that can't be withstood. Its only problem is that it's vulgar as fuck.
Can a Blood Potency/Primal Urge/Wyrd 6 + 25 XP vampire/werewolf/changeling stand up to a Gnosis 6 + 25 XP Acanthus mage?
>>47622395
>stand up to a Gnosis 6 mage?
hahaha no
>>47622353
>And if you do that, you're going to be leaving your Signature Nimbus everywhere, while if you're casting spells on yourself, you won't be
Signature Nimbus is worded really, really vaguely. I'm pretty sure you just leave it wherever your spells pass.
>>47614644
The links in the pastebin for the Chronicles of Darkness, Beast, and Dark Eras are no longer working. Could anyone provide the PDFs?
At least CoD?
>>47622438
https://www.sendspace.com/file/umre6o
>>47622395
>Gnosis 6 Acanthus
Not unless the Mage is made horrendously.
Does anyone have the Dark Eras PDF that includes the recent errata?
>>47622395
>>47622404
>>47622458
25 XP is enough to have 5/5/2 in Arcana and a Legacy.
Fate 5, Time 5, Space 2?
>>47622330
>>47622335
The spell does not literally just go "NO DOORS". It allows you to bypass the doors by knowing what is the correct path. And since this is NOT MIND CONTROL as we've all agreed, you have the limits of whatever the situation at hand is.
>The mage causes the future to conform to her expectations, building a hypothetical scenario she can then examine for knowledge about how to alter the future drastically, whether to ensure or avert a specific event.
>By building the hypothetical future around a Social interaction, the mage may reduce the subject’s Doors by Potency, since she has intimate knowledge how each question or interaction might affect the target’s choices.
You know what to say. You still have to say it. And if there's no solution? There's no solution. It isn't magically convincing someone to do what you want, it's knowing what to say to get them there. This is one of those times where mechanics are written in such a way that the Rules as Written very clearly do not cover every single scenario, which is how most social mechanics work in every game, and why they come with caveats for Storytellers to use their best judgement on what they will or won't allow.
>The Storyteller will determine if the goal is reasonable — while a con-artist could convince a rich victim to hand over a large sum of money, he probably can’t convince her to abandon all her wealth, at least not without supernatural powers.
(And keep in mind that Present as Past is not changing THEM, only YOU)
Yes, for a lot of mundane social interaction, using Present as Past will allow you to bypass social maneuvering altogether as you dump 7 Potency and say the right thing. But if you're trying to do something super difficult, I'm not going to allow that. And, again, you still have to go through the motions. If the answer to the hypothetical is "date his sister for two weeks", well, buy some chocolate and look up movie showtimes.
I understand that the Mage 2e core was limited by space, but the game definitely needs a book similar to Mage 20's How Do You Do That or a similar "grimoire," particularly for the very revised Arcana like Prime. I would also love to see alternative Arcana Attainments that could be purchased with XP.
Hopefully, some of the current deficiencies, ambiguities and vagaries will be dealt with in Signs of Sorcery (and the errata and FAQ), but I'm not optimistic since the supplement was mostly written before the new core was even released and subject to fan comment.
>>47622482
>You know what to say. You still have to say it.
Yes, with no fucking Doors to stand in the way.
>And if there's no solution? There's no solution.
See >>47622282
>(And keep in mind that Present as Past is not changing THEM, only YOU)
Which is why there's no Withstand.
>But if you're trying to do something super difficult, I'm not going to allow that.
ST fiat doesn't mean the spell isn't bullshit strong as it's currently written.
>>47622438
https://www.sendspace.com/filegroup/tYcX7JEjC%2BkTQk%2BxTPhSSJ0j8BgNKcbQ
>>47622501
>Which is why there's no Withstand.
I was preempting someone saying that it was magic so you could convince someone to give up their money. This is not the one size fits all scalpel that people are making it out to be. The spell isn't bullshit if you just look at only the RAW in the RAWest way possible and ignore any sort of context and treat it as better than mind control as if you could tell anyone to do anything.
>>47622497
That would definitely be awesome.
>>47622534
>The spell isn't bullshit if you just look at only the RAW in the RAWest way possible and ignore any sort of context and treat it as better than mind control as if you could tell anyone to do anything.
Well maybe Dave should've edited that spell a little better.
>>47622335
But it sometimes doesn't make narrative sense.
>>47622541
dave probably expected people to read the social maneuvering rules which that spell interacts with. if someone does, they'll notice that those rules state that social maneuvering is not mind control, and that whether what you want to accomplish is reasonable is dependent completely on the ST.
You cannot use this spell to make barack obama give you the nuclear launch codes.
>>47622395
A Changeling might stand a chance, since they can make themselves functionally immune to Supernal Magic by spending a Willpower to add their Clarity to their Resistance Trait, so in a straight-up fight, the Changeling stands a pretty good chance, since that's up to 30 dots of Contracts that they get to spend, and when they activate their super-mode, they get an extra six dice from their Wyrd each round to spend however they want, which should help them beat their way through the Mage's Mage Armor.
Of course, that won't help them if the Mage just uses Prophecy to open all of their Doors to convince them to become their minion or something.
>>47622541
>Well maybe Dave should've edited that spell a little better.
Considering just how long Mage 2e was in development, no less the comments from active open development and playtesting, I was shocked and saddened by the extent of the errata and other ambiguities and rules issues.
If Dave had actually included the Arcana, the obvious source of the greatest problems, as part of open development, many of the arguments and dissatisfaction might have been avoided.
If the upcoming FAQ isn't long, detailed and comprehensive, I will be very disappointed.
>>47622570
>s functionally immune to Supernal Magic by spending a Willpower to add their Clarity to their Resistance Trait,
Not all spells need to directly target a subject and are Withstood. Indirect and creative uses of magic are often equally, if not more, effective.
>>47622561
>this spell is really good at what it does
>WELL it cant do EVERYTHING though!
>>47622570
>Of course, that won't help them if the Mage just uses Prophecy to open all of their Doors to convince them to become their minion or something.
That only works if the Mage has a chance to convince the Changeling to be their minion. If the Changeling would never agree do to the current circumstances then that wouldn't work.
>>47622541
>>47622592
I'm sorry that many of the spells are written with the assumption that the reader has basic human competency.
>>47622605
The problem is that people are arguing that it's "better than mind control". It's not. It is good at what it does. But what it does is not bend the world to your will and turn everyone into your sycophant.
>>47622599
True, but not many indirect uses of Fate or Time will help when a pissed-off and Contract-buffed Changeling is in your face and trying to carve you up with their sword.
Also, incidentally, I was reading through the Open Development posts for Hurt Locker, and I discovered this gem in the equipment chapter:
>Binoculars provide magnification over great distances. Normal sight-based perception rolls suffer penalties beyond 100 yards. With binoculars, the viewer can see clearly up to 1000 yards, though she loses clarity beyond 500 yards. For every 100 yards past 500, the viewer suffers a -1 to any sight-based perception rolls, to a maximum of -5 (beyond which the character can't make out any clear details). Night vision binoculars (Availability •••) incur similar penalties starting at 200 yards.
Yes. The description for what "sensory range" means is listed in the *generic equipment book*, rather than the Mage book.
>>47622605
i never said it wasn't extremely, perhaps brokenly robust. The general "potency maps 1-to-1 to effect of the spell" thing is something i'm not altogether satisfied with, though I've yet to see any terrifically bad results with it in the one session of Mage 2E I've actually managed to run.
My only problem is people claiming that it can do things it can't, IE "this spell is better than mind control."
>>47622627
Also, random thought: obviously you can find electronic bugs by using Forces Mage Sight to notice the electronics, but could you find them by using Fate or Space Mage sight by looking for the sympathetic connections between them and the receiving devices?
>>47622561
It's better than mind control in various situations because it's really hard to detect the aftereffects, and it's long term.
>>47622627
>but not many indirect uses of Fate or Time will help when a pissed-off and Contract-buffed Changeling is in your face and trying to carve you up with their sword.
Fate has contracts under its purview and can shit all over Contracts. Fate and Time also have the best Mage Armors by far. They even apply when surprised.
And anyway, Fate and Time have a hell of a lot of indirect spells, like Temporal Summoning.
>>47622599
Not a veteran of WW games but how DO you deal with magic if it can bypass your rolls to resist?
>>47622627
>not many indirect uses of Fate or Time will help when a pissed-off and Contract-buffed Changeling is in your face and trying to carve you up with their sword
Chaos Mastery as currently written.
Temporal Summoning.
Going back in time with Shifting Sands (only 3 dots) and BTFOing the target.
>>47622696
tons o' sleepers around, a friendly mage or swearing service to a magic-eating Abyssal entity.
>>47622696
Nothing. That's why Mages always win
>>47622669
Changeling Contracts are not going to be something you can directly fuck with through Fate, and any of the ones where you can will be subject to Clash of Wills.
>>47622664
I don't know if Space lets you search connections between objects and objects. Fate you could bumble into them, though.
>>47622703
How it's currently written doesn't really matter considering we've already been told that it will be rewritten within a few days.
>>47622708
Chaos Mastery as currently written isn't something that most Sleepers can detect.
Neither is going back in time with Shifting Sands if you slip behind a corner or something.
>>47622718
>Changeling Contracts are not going to be something you can directly fuck with through Fate
Sever Oaths says hello, and that's just ONE of the FIVE functions of that spell.
>>47622719
Fate & Time should have that thing that Demon has where causality/probability warping-shit is always more risky than other things.
>>47622733
You'll notice that all of the "tweaking fate is dangerous" stuff from Mage 1e is completely gone in 2e.
>>47622763
Even the most generous reading of Mage 2e reveals that Dave loves Acanthus and hates Obrimos.
>>47622718
>Changeling Contracts are not going to be something you can directly fuck with through Fate
Bullshit.
That's like saying "mage mind shields protect completely against all influences"
>>47622728
That'd let you sever the Oaths a Changeling sanctified, but a Changeling's Contracts are their basic supernatural powers. It's like saying you can permanently remove a Werewolve's Gifts with Spirit, or a Vampire's Disciplines with Death, or, hell, removing a Mage's Arcana with Prime.
It's just not something that a Mage is capable of doing, at least not without being an Archmaster. Now, you might be able to turn off a particular activation of those abilities, but permanent removal of them is definitely beyond them.
>>47622728
People who go through and intentionally choose to read the most ridiculous things are always the worst.
"Modify or negate an unbroken oath or other supernatural agreement reinforced by the dictates of Fate." Does not mean "you can shut down a Changeling's powers because you're so great at everything". And, frankly, even if it did, we're right back to "a Changeling can add their Clarity to their Resistance Attribute for Withstanding".
>>47622793
That's not at all the same thing. You're literally arguing that you should be able to fuck with someone's powers. Yeah, you can counter shit, but nothing like just blanket turning off all their powers or giving them new ones or whatever it is you people are arguing for this time.
>>47622796
Don't get confused between eliminating a power of a splat and just neutralizing or altering it.
Mages can certain defend against and screw with Werewolf gifts and Vampire disciplines with the appropriate proficiency in the pertinent Arcana, and Changeling contracts are no exception.
Your argument appears more based on game balance than the Mage setting and capabilities of the Arcana.
>>47622817
That's literally what Sever Oaths does though.
>>47622733
Demon points out its more dangerous because the God-Machine pays attention to that sort of stuff, not because it directly poses any threat to the demon. Of course the Machine more than likely goes after mages fucking with causality and probability.
>>47614899
There's a not-broken arcanum that isn't forces?
>>47622835
Then you can turn off a Mage's Arcana with Prime and remove Disciplines with Mind and take away Manifestations with Death, and remove Gifts with Spirit.
>>47622817
My bad I mistook Contracts for Pledges for a second
>>47622817
A mage need not necessarily use Sever Oaths to achieve the desired effect. Sever Oaths is just one of many sample spells demonstrating what is capable at that level of Fate, and affecting Changeling contracts appears well withing the Arcanum's purview at the same dot level.
Where does your favorite Mage permutation fall in this popularity ranking? And why are Mastigos Guardians so popular? Why is the Silver Ladder (or at least the word "thearch") so unpopular?
"Acanthus Arrow": Disqualified because of it covering something else in real life
"Mastigos Arrow": 88 Google hits
"Moros Arrow": 198 Google hits
"Obrimos Arrow": 612 Google hits
"Thyrsus Arrow": 88 Google hits
"Acanthus Guardian": 482 Google hits
"Mastigos Guardian": 1,170 Google hits
"Moros Guardian": 176 Google hits
"Obrimos Guardian": 317 Google hits
"Thyrsus Guardian": 114 Google hits
"Acanthus Libertine": 161 Google hits
"Mastigos Libertine": 28 Google hits
"Moros Libertine": 20 Google hits
"Obrimos Libertine": 44 Google hits
"Thyrsus Libertine": 6 Google hits
"Acanthus Mystagogue": 58 Google hits
"Mastigos Mystagogue": 9 Google hits
"Moros Mystagogue": 135 Google hits
"Obrimos Mystagogue": 327 Google hits
"Thyrsus Mystagogue": 235 Google hits
"Acanthus Thearch": 4 Google hits
"Mastigos Thearch": 2 Google hits
"Moros Thearch": 6 Google hits
"Obrimos Thearch": 7 Google hits
"Thyrsus Thearch": 3 Google hits
>>47622840
If we're going by premade spells, Fate and Time definitely have way better premades than basically anything else. Mind and Space are good contenders though.
Prime's dispellation is kinda ass now.
>>47622844
>you can turn off a Mage's Arcana with Prime and remove Disciplines with Mind and take away Manifestations with Death, and remove Gifts with Spirit.
Yes, although not in a manner you suggest.
>>47622844
Or a Promethean's Transmutations withMatter.
>>47622847
That's possible, yeah.
>>47622851
Only if you're an idiot.
>>47622869
You can counter or suppress them. You can't directly fuck with and alter them. Pretty sure that's still Archmage tier.
>>47622865
creative thaumaturgy: "spells should have a single, clear effect!"
Fate example spells: "heh"
>>47622862
>"Obrimos Mystagogue": 327 Google hits
Nice
Also you should really put Seer instead of Thearch
>>47622873
>u can counter or suppress them. You can't directly fuck with and alter them. Pretty sure that's still Archmage tier.
Exactly, although it's really a distinction without a difference in the heat of combat or similar circumstances.
>>47622873
If a mage with Death/Mind/Spirit can go "lolnope" to a ghost/goetia/spirit's Numina, then a mage with Fate can sure as hell "lolnope" a changeling's Contracts.
>>47622886
Thearchs are the Silver Ladder guys, not the Seers dudes.
>>47622865
>Prime's dispellation is kinda ass now.
No kidding.
I've already houseruled that with the expenditure of a Reach, a mage doesn't need to have all the Arcana of the spell he seeks to dispel.
Did Dave ever indicate which freelances wrote each of the new Arcana?
>>47622837
Mage: I control Time and Fate! Fear me, for I am like unto a god!
Angel: Hey, bro. I work for an actual god, and he's getting pissed off by all the time and probability fuckery. Knock it off.
Mage: Fuck you! Silver Ladder, bitch! Bring it!
God-Machine: *robo-divine smiting*
Mage: I regret nothing! Hubris is a lie! *gets crushed to death under a giant pile of gears*
>>47622908
They were all written by different people, but he approved them
>>47622708
And if you don't have a Mage? Like say, you are a hunter compact?
>>47622920
bring your friends & family to the fight, find an artifact that can disrupt the formation of Imagos or bap your ST on the head for dropping a full-template mage on you guys with no preparation?
>>47622917
>They were all written by different people, but he approved them
The buck definitely stops at Dave as developer, but I'm still curious who wrote what, particularly if the same author(s) who wrote overpowered Fate and Time also wrote underpowered Forces and Prime.
>>47622930
According to my GM, who is really happy Mage came out (It always was his favorite splat), Hunters don't really have any issues with Mages because 'They are just humans, you can shoot them'.
I'm not sure this is going to go well for our campaign. Maybe my priest will be able to find a prayer to negate spells or something because it feels like we are otherwise going to be fucked.
Context: Creepy Necromancer fucker has been stealing corpses to do experiments into the true nature of death and spiritual power. 99.99% sure it's a mage because the GM is gleeful about Mage right now.
>>47622930
>bring your friends & family to the fight
If you know about Paradox, you'll know about Quiescence.
If you know about Quiescnece, you'll know you're exposing your friends and family to mental trauma.
Not exactly the most benevolent move.
How do I politely stop my Tzimisce waifu from turning me inside out?
How would a Mage go about making magical autonomous murder puppets?
>>47622972
Turn yourself inside out first, that way when she does it she'll just be turning you back to normal
>>47622972
>How do I politely stop my Tzimisce waifu from turning me inside out?
Acknowledge the 1990's are long over, and stop playing oWOD Vampire.
>>47622960
I must admit, I'm really not happy with Quiescnece as an idea. Yeah, i know, you wanna keep it hidden. However it kinda really fucks a lot of mortal archetypes that could be around mages.
I'd have much preferred if it was one-off, rather than 'This keeps happening until you give up or have a breakdown'
>>47622979
Well Prime 5 can't do autonomous anymore unless you also have Mind 5, but there's tat if you're a double master.
Life 5 can create autonomous minions
>>47622956
You'll definitely need to do some lorediving to even the playing field. The GM has a point (sort of) in that the mage, unlike say, werewolves does not have an INNATE ability to apply his defense against firearms.
But the mage doesn't really need that and if comes down to a fight, well...he's got lots of stuff he can bust out.
The cell's advantages are going to be in your preparation, in your ability to lead the mage into a confrontation on your own terms(with ample avenues of escape), the fact that all of you are sleepers(?) and anything more specific to your chronicle that you can bring to bear.
Is your GM going to be running with Dissonance and the Sleeping Curse in full effect? That'll add a host of new challenges but might disrupt some of the wizard's carefully-laid magical traps if you do end up having to bust into the lair.
>>47622996
>Life 5 can create autonomous minions
But this will shred your Wisdom
>>47622995
Just get something that gives you an internal power, or make a deal with another Supernatural to temporarily grant you a minor template, and you're good.
You made any friends with "nice" monsters?
>>47623002
>But this will shred your Wisdom
Only if you're high Wisdom.
>>47622995
Sleepwalker's a 1 dot merit.
>>47623001
>Is your GM going to be running with Dissonance and the Sleeping Curse in full effect?
I have no clue. We've been following clues and seen after-effects but not the dude or his magic personally yet.
We have a priest (Me) and a Demon-blooded guy in the group as well as a former SWAT officer and a hacker who watched his best friend get nommed by a vampire over webcam.
>>47622718
Yeah, they are. Sever Oaths will fuck them up, just like Pledges and Demons' Pacts.
Are there any new information about Deviant?
>>47622984
But Metaplot
>>47622913
This made me laugh, thank you.
>>47622979
Minimum Matter 4.
Add Mind/Spirit/Death 3 to give it a Twilight pilot, or Mind 5 for a fully fledged intelligence.
Or you know, just give them VERY simple orders, and micro-manage the shit out of them.
>>47622844
Remove? No. Counter? Yes. Well, you can Counter the Disciplines if they're mental powers, like Nightmare or Majesty.
Numinous Shield lets you counter Gifts. Sever Oaths lets you destroy Demonic Pacts (which is a surefire way to *really* piss a Demon off).
How do I pic related in nWoD?
>>47623027
Demon-blooded is good, he's going to be the only one who actually...remembers confrontations with the spellslinger.
I'd definitely recommend doing some research in-character and seeing if you can find anything that disrupts supernal magic in any capacity. I'd point you to some canon examples but I'm exhausted and nothing's coming off the top of my head.
>>47623060
Why do you hate Obrimos?
>>47622898
'twas need the Arcanum at 1, don't need it at 4 in 1st ed, too. Dispellation has always been a two-step thing.
>>47623069
I'm a Mallus priest. Does that make me immune to it? Or are those holy prayers not enough?
>>47623080
You probably qualify as a sleepwalker, yes. You're not immune to the might of the supernal, much as we all would like to be.
>>47622980
Devious
>>47623080
Do you have an innate power, or does your power come from reading prayers on ancient scrolls or something
>>47623080
Benediction rite are external powers that you call upon, not an internal ability that makes you immune to Quiescence.
