Are Experience Points outdated?
Depends.
XP in a level less system is fine.
XP to gain levels is super outdated, especially when levels take the same amount of XP.
Not enough data for a meaningful answer.
>>47452148
I'm inclined to think the exact opposite. The whole combination of "pick thing to give you extra points/dice, spend advancement points on it alone" really doesn't lend towards a good play experience.
If you're not going to use class/levels, you're better off probably just having a amateur vs professional binary state for raw numbers/dice, and then if you can further improve it, something like nwod fighting merits (but generalized for not just combat) stuff that produces more varied benefits than just getting more points/dice.
>>47452174
>The whole combination of "pick thing to give you extra points/dice, spend advancement points on it alone" really doesn't lend towards a good play experience.
Can you expand on this? I play systems like this more than anything else, and I love it. The degree of customization and the ability to make my character work exactly the way I want to is something I really value, whereas with level based systems I'm forced to compromise and approximate, since the ability to x might be arbitrarily locked behind various values of y and z.
I wouldn't say outdated, but I personally don't like them.
>>47452174
This just sounds like you only played one classless system and called it a day.
Something like RuneQuest is very organic where you can a small incremental improvement on something you know or learn something new like a new skill or spell. You can also increase stats depending on edition, but that is either temporary or not worth it.
personally i'm more of a fan of "level up when you do something cool"
it incentivizes good roleplaying and shaking up the story and makes players feel more accomplished. plus they don't care about grinding and that's nice
>Is tracking progress in RPGs outdated
No
No. Tracking power growth is not outdated in a game where you start out weaker than a house cat and end up being able to summon dragons and teleport to anywhere you want with a wish spell ready as a contingency.
>>47452111
In a system where character power is measured by level and all the characters are expected to advance at the same time, yes. Leveling up after what feels to the DM like a sufficient amount of time or after a notable accomplishment is far superior. In a system where character power is measured in exp and level only determines when you get your new powers, then it's a bit of a necessity.
>>47452111
No.
But discrete, level-based progression is.
>>47452236
>This just sounds like you only played one classless system and called it a day.
RuneQuest is one damn system. Its not the norm. The norm is "spend points on one thing at a time to get higher points in that one thing," which far from being more advanced than class/levels, should be left to gather dust where it belongs, in the nineties at the latest.
What about a system where not only can you use XP for incremental advancements that broaden your abilities, but you can also use the same resource to: Gain temporary bonuses by elaborating on your backstory "I was raised next to a locksmith who made these self-same locks;" gain items of convenience such as money or a stronghold; gain a temporary ability or power, tell the GM to fuck himself on a minor detail, or to reroll?
>>47452297
>>47452316
There are other ways to progress characters aside from XP. "Milestones" are pretty popular, where you level up once you reach a particular part of an adventure. Motivates players to advance the plot without any tedious bookkeeping.
>>47452197
Not only do I not find anything to like about it, I can't even begin to imagine anything to like about it. "Oh boy, I have.. one more point on rolls for this specific thing."
In "pinpoint advancement systems" (lets call classless systems where you advance one thing at a time via XP, which is basically everything-but-Runequest), I have to compromise on EVERYTHING, as if I'm improving in one thing, its stealing progression from *everything else.* In addition, I'm ultimately paying out the nose for... one extra point on something.
The level of grey, generic sameyness fucking kills me, every time. Its hard to find a clearer indication that an RPG system isn't worth my time than pinpoint advancement.
Who is it good for? Its certainly not good for the GM, who, with increasing advancement, has less and less of a central point on which to balance challenges of any sort. Are all players so easily amused that the future of their character advancement being "plus one to this roll" enthuses them?
What's worse, the balance in those systems is absolutely atrocious. You will see stuff that has a tightly defined niche side by side with very general abilities. Computer/Hacking for example, in the same system that might have individual advancement systems for discrete methods of attacking in combat; say, Firearms, Archery, Martial Arts, Brawling, Melee, and Throwing. So you then have a system where something that is binary and pass/fail (does anyone have a Computer skill? Y/N) is balanced on the same axis as a ton of essentially interchangeable skills.
I can see, say, Brawling or MA for places you can't bring a weapon into, or maybe Melee or Throwing due to improvised, and Firearms/Archery for when you can bring a projectile weapon, but their purpose overlaps to an extreme extent and you generally aren't ever going to want to have all of them. Exalted had this problem with the Dawns. Likewise, each character that is good at combat makes the combat easier.
>>47452378
Level-based progression is typically what seperates roleplaying systems from pseudo-freeform "the rules get in the way of play so we largely ignore them" systems.
Not always, but it's the general trend.
>>47452512
>>47452197
And where things get REALLY bad is where you just plain have a skill for magic or something like that, and you wind up with one guy that is boosting his Computer skill (a largely binary, pass/fail affair), a number of guys boosting their combat skill and maybe some other professional skill, and then one guy's boosting his do-everything skill, reminding us that 3.x's problems aren't unique to it, or even to class/level systems.
If you fall too far behind in combat, you basically will probably wind up twiddling your thumbs while waiting for others to do their shit; but you will almost never regret not buying into the Computer skill alongside that other guy.
Hopefully you get the general impression.
>>47452512
>>47452546
Unfortunately, despite you using a lot of words, I'm still finding it kinda hard to get your point. Possibly because you're making a lot of assumptions which aren't actually true. Even in systems where you do raise things point by point, it isn't just a flat number increase, as you'll have opportunities to broaden your capabilities or do different things with them as your points rise. Take Exalted as an example. Sure, you'll spend a lot of XP levelling skills and stats, but doing so also gets you access to interesting new Charms that let you leverage those same skills and stats in different ways.
>>47452477
Metagame mechanics AND stuff that fucks you over by trading permanent advancement for temporary convenience? Sounds rancidly bad.
RPGs with metagame mechanics are really their own animal. Chances are you like them or you don't. There can be no peace between metagamers and roleplayers.
>>47452562
>Implying they're two distinct and separate things
This always amuses me.
>>47452558
Although the Dawn caste instance was so (to illustrate the inherent problem of "why the fuck would I advance four or more weapon/unarmed skills when I can only use one at a time?"), as Exalted has race, class, subclass and an overarching "Essence" stat, it doesn't strike me as pertinent to the conversation.
My players level up when it feels right for them to have leveled up, after a big fight or segment of adventure usually. Sometimes I do track XP at the really early levels though
>>47452579
Generally some people come to the gametable to roleplay (to think from the perspective of the character), some to metagame (to stay in their own perspective). They're fundamentally irreconcilable viewpoints.
>>47452618
Except that seems like a ridiculous false dichotomy. It's perfectly possible to remain aware of the general state of the game, OOC, while still thinking as your character IC. Honestly, the ability to do both has always struck me as a vital skill for any roleplayer. If you can't get into your characters head you're not fun to roleplay with, but if you can't keep the OOC situation in mind then you turn into one of those 'But it's what my character would do!' That Guy's, who uses that to justify any amount of disruptive or unhelpful behaviour.
>>47452477
>>47452562
This is exactly what the Cypher System does.
This is also the system where ranged weapons are objectively better than melee weapons at the same cost, and are more accurate in melee than real melee weapons.
This is also the system where jumping a dozen feet the mundane way is arduously difficult, yet a starting adept-type can use a magical power to jump 100 feet in any direction and safely land... for free, with Intellect Edge 2 from customization.
>>47452658
>This is also the system where ranged weapons are objectively better than melee weapons at the same cost, and are more accurate in melee than real melee weapons.
Source the rule?
Sounds like you're full of shit.
>>47452645
>but if you can't keep the OOC situation in mind then you turn into one of those 'But it's what my character would do!' That Guy's, who uses that to justify any amount of disruptive or unhelpful behaviour.
Now who's engaging in ridiculous false dichotomies? That line of argument could only apply to a narrow band of characters, namely disruptive and unhelpful ones. Just don't make Coldsteel the Hedgehog.
>>47452710
It can apply to any character who is a well rounded and thought out person. If you have a PC who would absolutely never prove an issue if you didn't consider the OOC situation, then they're probably two dimensional and boring.
>>47452645
Your point is correct, so don't use bad comparisons to try and rebut him, >>47452710
was also my first thought.
>>47452690
Here you go.
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/46322799/
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/46672143/
>>47452658
Funny thing is, I have never heard of Cypher before, but I engage in a "once a month RPG challenge" where I read at least one new RPG every month and I'm amazed at how many Babby's First RPGs have the same goddamn flaws and patterns.
There are probably (conservatively) dozens of RPGs this pattern of failings repeats in.
This thread pretty much proves that /tg/ doesn't play the games they masturbate about.
>>47452731
"Normal" PCs generally have issues they absolutely wouldn't cave on, although you know perfectly well that amoral mercenaries and craven connivers are just as good characters as any other type.
What's your point? Sounds far more to me that if a remotely "normal" character runs into something he won't cave into on, then its perfectly reasonable to be "disruptive" about it. The most obvious example is treating prisoners honorably, etc.
>>47452735
>point out bullshit 4chan exaggeration that is obvious on sight
>i dun have prove, here you find and proof for mee
>>47452735
Thanks!
Yeah, the point blank shit reminds me EXACTLY of owod (a whopping -2 to target number for fairly close foes). It was ameliorated by the fact that aggravated damage was mostly brawling in nature, though.
>>47452777
It's exactly situations like those where the ability to compromise based on the OOC situation, IMO, is necessary. It's part of good communication as a group, being able to discuss it with the other players and the GM, to figure out a way you can move forward in line with the characters beliefs, without being overly disruptive to the game.
>>47452512
Okay
>>47452781
He did provide proof, though.
>>47452790
Out of curiousity, is it unrealistic for ranged weapons to be easier to hit with at close range? A bow or crossbow or gun fired right next to someone is going to do terrifying damage with much more ease of aim.
I'm assuming it offends our collective DND-mind?
>>47452111
XP? No.
Levels? Yes.
>>47452820
Nope, he just linked to a repository containing the game.
Proof actually backs up your statements.
"Hey gaiz, I promise it's in their somewhere ;)"
>>47452840
The first link contains the proof for the point blank thing.
Try actually reading.
>>47452799
>It's exactly situations like those where the ability to compromise based on the OOC situation, IMO, is necessary.
See, I find this utterly unsympathetic. Roleplaying isn't all sunshine and roses. Bitter arguments and disputes where different personalities clash can be as entertaining and memorable as any climactic battle.
I have yet to see an OOC dispute on what to do that wouldn't have been better served as an IC one, with the sole exceptions of naggering details of the rules and the mind's eye etc ("can I, in fact, make this shot without taking cover penalties" would typically be a dry IC conversation at best).
>>47452822
Closequarters fighting with guns is pretty bad. I'd imagine its even worse for a crossbow or bow.
>>47452851
No proof, OP posts the same thing, but it's not actually substantiated. A person could get +3 to a single roll but have to throw away their knife? So fucking what.
It even uses a different stat pool that has disadvantages if you focus on it.
If you read that thread you can find multiple rebuttals.
>>47452870
If you had a sword against someone with a drawn longbow, I think you'd feel really shitty next to them...
It's the same for guns, why would you think otherwise?
>>47452111
I played in a game that used XP once. Never trying that again. So much useless bookkeeping for a mechanic that ends up being strictly worse than progression by story milestones.
>>47452822
>Out of curiousity, is it unrealistic for ranged weapons to be easier to hit with at close range?
Considering that its the *only* range at which someone's melee/unarmed capabilities can impact whether the weapon hits, yes, its full retard.
>A bow or crossbow or gun fired right next to someone is going to do terrifying damage with much more ease of aim.
Which is why the preferred weapon of melee combat through history has been the longbow.
>I'm assuming it offends our collective DND-mind?
Not even slightly, its taking a big fat greasy cock to our versimilitude, and rubbing it in our faces that its a turn based game with the other characters frozen in time during yours.
"Backpedal and shoot" tactics are the height of video game nonsense.
>>47452867
Did I imply that it should be all sunshine and roses? I agree that climactic conflicts and disputes between PCs can be amazing parts of an RPG. But they're also things which can derail plotlines and steal the focus from other things. As such, it's best to be pragmatic about it, and to be open to holding off until a lull in the action, for example. It's just basic common sense.
>>47452908
What if I had a sword and shield?
>>47452923
Anon, no offense but it sounds like you're basing your opinions on your 3.5 experience over real life.
Ammo and multiple opponents is a primary factor, but you are showing a serious failure to grasp ranged weapons in close combat.
Just stick to balance and not try and force reality.
>>47452926
Then you'd completely nullify the ranged bonus in cypher system and no longer be able to use the term objectively better which wasn't correct in the first place.
>>47452891
>If you read that thread you can find multiple rebuttals.
All of which have been counter-rebutted.
>It even uses a different stat pool that has disadvantages if you focus on it.
Ahahahahahahahaha... no. Just no. Speed is pretty much 100% better than Might in Cypher, not only because you need to conserve Might in order to NOT DIE in combat, but because Speed covers so much more than Might ever will, because Monte Cook hates those damn jocks.
>>47452924
"Plotlines" aren't a limited resource. If you "spoil the plot" by not sticking to the rails, never fear, there will be another plot after that. Its not a book, video game, or story, and thank God.
In fact, if you don't bother to provide a plot, a plot will magically spring up out of nowhere.
>>47452972
>Wrongly thinks that he can counter-rebut actually-intelligent people.
You are sure proud of your threads.
>>47452926
>>47452970
Using a melee weapon in Cypher is a good way to get yourself killed.
In Cypher, if you want to move more than a few feet and attack, you need to either:
- Succeed on a somewhat difficult roll, or else flop and lose your attempt
- Have a special ability that lets you do this
>>47452981
But can't you see how it could be an issue? If you're all enjoying escalating connected events, suddenly dragging everything sideways on a tangent purely because of your character is a dick move. Hence why discussion with your group is a necessary part of it.
>>47452951
>Anon, no offense but it sounds like you're basing your opinions on your 3.5 experience over real life.
Anon used ad hominem! It wasn't very effective...
>but you are showing a serious failure to grasp ranged weapons in close combat.
Do you have *any* basis to think that stringing arrows and shooting people in melee is going to be effective or practical? And I don't mean shooting people as they charge *into* melee.
>Just stick to balance and not try and force reality.
Realism is also a good reason.
>>47452742
What's the most common flaw-patterns?
>>47452658
Wait, so Jumping is almost exactly comparable to real life for most rolls, but a character in a role-playing game can use one of their supernatural abilities that they picked over other actually useful abilities to jump farther? And it takes up their entire turn?
So? Do you whine about Barbarians rage getting them free damage when rage in real life doesn't?
>>47452995
Cypher is extremely anti-melee. Not only do ranged weapons get a nice bonus for point blank shots, but melee characters closing in require either high-difficulty rolls or a special ability to close the gap.
ACTION: MOVE
As a part of another action, a character can adjust his position—stepping back a few feet while using an ability, sliding over in combat to take on a different opponent to help his friend, pushing through a door he just opened, and so on. This is considered an immediate distance, and a character can move this far as part of another action.
In a combat situation, if a character is in a large melee, he’s usually considered to be next to most other combatants, unless the GM rules that he’s farther away because the melee is especially large or the situation dictates it.
If he’s not in melee but still nearby, he is considered to be a short distance away—usually less than 50 feet (15 m). If he’s farther away than that but still involved in the combat, he is considered to be a long distance away, usually 50 to 100 feet (15 to 30 m). Beyond that distance, only special circumstances, actions, or abilities will allow a character to be involved in an encounter.
In a round, as an action, a character can make a short move. In this case, he is doing nothing but moving up to about 50 feet (15 m). Some terrain or situations will change the distance a character can move, but generally, making a short move is considered to be a difficulty 0 action. No roll is needed; he just gets where he’s going as his action.
>>47453001
>But can't you see how it could be an issue?
I can see how playing a character who is a retarded asshat could be an issue.
I can't see how it could be an issue for a well adjusted and reasonably practical character, as if your character is well adjusted and practical, and runs into something they absolutely won't cave on, then chances are they have a damn good reason.
At this point your perspective sounds to me more like a mysterious riddle. "What will a reasonable person unreasonably fail to compromise on?" Hmmm. What indeed? And why would I want him to compromise on it?
When is a good reason a bad reason? Why is metagaming suddenly the necessary antidote?
Metagaming strikes me as more necessary when you have a purely unreasonable character that doesn't sound too fun to me to begin with (ie. WtA chars, 40k chars, etc).
>>47453048
A character can try to make a long move—up to 100 feet (30 m) or so—in one round. This is a Speed task with a difficulty of 4. As with any action, he can use skills, assets, or Effort to decrease the difficulty. Terrain, obstacles, or other circumstances can increase the difficulty. A successful roll means the character moved the distance safely. Failure means that at some point during the move, he stops or stumbles (the GM determines where this happens).
A character can also try to make a short move and take another (relatively simple) physical action, like make an attack. As with the attempt to make a long move, this is a Speed task with a difficulty of 4, and failure means that the character stops at some point, slipping or stumbling or otherwise getting held up.
>>47453047
For the same ability slot of Far Leap (which can be completely free at character creation with Intellect Edge customization), a character can lower the difficulty of jumping and climbing tasks by 1.
And it still takes up basically their entire turn or more to close the distance because of these exact rules I just posted.
>>47453069
>A character can lower the difficulty of jumping and climbing tasks by 1.
>A character being a different class
>Also being able to always use it, for no points, even when not using full turn on it.
>Ignores all the other available options
Request that you try harder when being deceptive?
>>47453024
Skills rated on the same axis without accounting for versatility and synergy, as per the prior example of how you generally only need one character to pass/fail computer hacking rolls or whatever and tend to not take place in structured time, while, for example, combat does take place in structured time, combat characters complement each other, being shit at combat means you'd better grab a snickers, and combat skills tend to be better or worse than each other rather than better or worse for specific situations. And finally above them tends to be fairly omni-skills like magic.
Pinpoint advancement systems almost always commit this sin, of thinking all skills are created equal.
>>47453047
>Wait, so Jumping is almost exactly comparable to real life for most rolls
Difficulty 7: Formidable (impossible without skills or great effort)
Difficulty 8: Heroic (a task worthy of tales told for years afterward)
Difficulty 9: Immortal (a task worthy of legends that last lifetimes)
Difficulty 10: Impossible (a task that normal humans couldn't consider, but one that doesn't break the laws of physics)
Do you know how Cypher difficulties work?
Difficulty 7 means you need to roll a 21 on a d20.
If you happen to be trained in the task, lower the difficulty by 1. If you are trained, lower the difficulty by 2 instead.
If you spend 3 points from a relevant pool, lower the difficulty by another 1. This is the highest a starting character can go.
So a starting character trained and specialized in jumping, who spends 3 dice points from a pool, lowers a difficulty 7 jump to a difficulty 4 jump... and still needs to roll 12 on a d20 to succeed.
This is for a jump 24 feet long... which requires a 50 foot start... that has to be spread out over two turns.
Sure is a lot of investment for basically nothing.
>>47453098
An adept has Intellect Edge 1.
Customization can make that Intellect Edge 2.
Far Step costs 2 points of Intellect. With Intellect Edge 2, that becomes completely free. Jump 100 feet as an action and land safely.
Everyone else needs to jump through hoops even with skill specialization for the same thing.
>>47452111
Yes and no.
XP is useful when you've got a 'drop in' sort of game, where any number of players can just show up and play- I structured a game like that, what with all the player characters part of a guild doing missions, that kind of thing.
But on a standard game, with a party that travels through adventures, it's a lot better to level the players via milestones.
>>47453048
>>47453069
That's a lot of text about movement, could you explain how this disadvantages melee? It looks as if ranged will get a single shot off, then be in melee. The 4plebs thread above was pretty clear that melee-based abilities tended to be stronger so I'm not fully grasping your point.
>>47453067
The issue is that "reasonable" and "unreasonable" are totally subjective. Whether or not something is reasonable in a given game is up to the group. Therefore: ask them. Yeah, it's "meta" to say "I want to play my character like this, but it's gonna sidetrack the game for a while, is everyone cool with that?" but it's also polite and sensible.
>>47453125
24 feet is an insanely long long-jump for a normal human being.
It is telling that you keep pointing to only the upper three difficulties instead of the accuracy of the lower ones.
>>47453122
Interesting, thank you.
>>47453142
See
>>47453047
The point you can't grasp is the part where a person sacrified other aspects to enhance their magical and imaginary character.
Do you scream when an adept spends their first level on an ability that creates light better than someone with years in torch training?
>>47453156
>The 4plebs thread above was pretty clear that melee-based abilities tended to be stronger so I'm not fully grasping your point.
False.
These are both available to a starting Warrior:
>Pierce (1 Speed point): This is a well-aimed, penetrating ranged attack. You make an attack and inflict 1 additional point of damage if your weapon has a sharp point. Action.
>Thrust (1 Might point): This is a powerful melee stab. You make an attack and inflict 1 additional point of damage if your weapon has a sharp edge or point. Action.
Tier 2 warriors have some nice melee abilities, but they also have this, which is better than all of them, and has a ranged option:
>Skill With Attacks: Choose one type of attack in which you are not already trained: light bashing, light bladed, light ranged, medium bashing, medium bladed, medium ranged, heavy bashing, heavy bladed, or heavy ranged. You are trained in attacks using that type of weapon. You can select this ability multiple times. Each time you select it, you must choose a different type of attack. Enabler.
By tier 3, we go back to mirrored melee vs. ranged equivalents.
>Deadly Aim (3 Speed points): For the next minute, all ranged attacks you make inflict 2 additional points of damage. Action to initiate.
>Fury (3 Might points): For the next minute, all melee attacks you make inflict 2 additional points of damage. Action to initiate.
Ranged is just better in Cypher.
>>47453182
>The issue is that "reasonable" and "unreasonable" are totally subjective.
If I can't figure out what is reasonable, I can't figure out what is reasonable. Can't really do anything about it.
>"I want to play my character like this, but it's gonna sidetrack the game for a while, is everyone cool with that?"
Not going to lie, I would lose respect for anyone who asked that. It strikes me as spineless to ask permission, spineless to cave on behalf of others, and tops it off with the cherry of them setting too extreme of behavior for their character in the first place.
>>47453142
>pleasebegirlpleasebegirlpleasebegirl...
>>47453247
Jesus fucking christ, I hope I never play with a stupid fucker like you. It's a goddamn game. It's meant to be fun. Doublechecking with someone to make sure shit stays fun isn't spineless, you insane freak, it's polite.
>>47453228
Try again.
>Far Step (2 Intellect points): You leap through the air and land some distance away. You can jump up, down, or across to anywhere you choose within long range (100 feet) if you have a clear and unobstructed path to that location. You land safely. Action.
>Physical Skills: You are trained in two skills in which you are not already trained. Choose two of the following: balancing, climbing, jumping, running, or swimming. You can select this ability multiple times. Each time you select it, you must choose two different skills. Enabler.
Both of these are tier 1 abilities. Both are actually available to an adept with skills and knowledge flavor. They cost the exact same slot!
Now why would that adept bother with doing things the mundane way when they could pick up Intellect Edge 2 and Far Leap the much better, magical way that does NOT require a 50 foot running start (which takes up your turn, so the jump has to resolve on your next turn)?
>>47453183
>It is telling that you keep pointing to only the upper three difficulties instead of the accuracy of the lower ones.
Here, have the full jumping table.
Remember the high level difficulty benchmarks.
Difficulty 7: Formidable (impossible without skills or great effort)
Difficulty 8: Heroic (a task worthy of tales told for years afterward)
Difficulty 9: Immortal (a task worthy of legends that last lifetimes)
Difficulty 10: Impossible (a task that normal humans couldn't consider, but one that doesn't break the laws of physics)
>>47453285
Olympic long jump record (for men) is 8.9m, so it would be somewhere between difficulty 9 and 10 on that table. The math they're using is borked.
>>47453280
>Jesus fucking christ, I hope I never play with a stupid fucker like you.
The hurt feelings of a metagamer are delicious nectar.
>It's a goddamn game. It's meant to be fun.
Yes. I find roleplaying games to be fun.
>Doublechecking with someone to make sure shit stays fun isn't spineless
If you have to cave in on a rare central element of your character's personality, and you have a typical, modest set of character personality traits (nothing klingonish, nothing capeshitty, nothing 40kish, etc.), what was the fucking point of having a personality to begin with and how fun is it to invalidate your character?
As you can't even think of a single situation where
your convoluted scenario would apply, I regret to inform you that your riddles have ceased to amuse.
>>47453285
Huh, a difficulty 3 lines up with the average college goer for long jumps.
What is difficulty 3? The average untrained person can do this about 50% of the time?
It looks pretty accurate up until about 7, no wonder you keep pointing that out. Well, any full-retard you want to go, you go.
>>47453365
tl;dr you're an antisocial fuckwit, we get it.
>>47453365
Hey, fuckface, if you can't tell via the differing vernacular, I'm someone new calling you an utter faggot.
Like, seriously. Talking to people isn't. Fucking. Spineless. You dribbling. Retard.
>>47453285
>Why would that adept bother
See
>>47453228
>>47453382
No, you.
>>47452477
So FFG Star Wars, where this is not just a mechanic but the most critical mechanic to playing the game.
>>47453366
Difficulty 3:
>Demanding: Requires full attention; most people have a 50/50 chance to succeed.
So, if you happen to be trained and specialized in jumping and spend 3 points of Might (minus Might Edge), you go down to difficulty 0.
You can get yourself a 50 foot start (takes up basically your entire turn), then on your next turn, automatically jump... 16 feet.
This is for someone trained and specialized in jumping and getting a 50 foot running start. Takes two whole turns.
Meanwhile, the starting adept with Intellect Edge 2 and Far Leap activates that for no cost and automatically jumps 100 feet, landing safely.
>>47453386
>Like, seriously. Talking to people isn't. Fucking. Spineless.
*Asking permission* for you to *roleplay your character* is, indeed, spineless. If someone had to ask for permission to *roleplay his character* I would lose respect for him, and then ask him why he bothered giving his character that personality trait in the first place.
>>47453438
Strawman, fuckface. Not wanting the game to ground to a halt, and talking things over OOC isn't spineless. The other guy is right, you're the sort of game disrupting shitter that'll hide behind "BUT IT'S WHAT MY CHARACTER WOULD DO!" then run to /tg/ and throw a 'tism tantrum when the group turns you out on your ass.
Go suck off a shotgun, faggot.
>>47452606
What I have a problem with is that it heavily depends on the system and type of campaign.
In games like WoD or 40krpgs, having so to spend is a part of it like it is in shadowrun.
Then cases like 3.5 where xp is a resource to use on crafting.
Then you have systems like the new star wars one where, technically, you could organize it where players told the gm what they focused on that arc and he give you what he thinks you deserve. In this case though, the xp reward would just be quicker and have players justify weird skill/talent pick ups.
At the tail ends you have rollmaster, which is a total piece of shit and requires you to hand out xp from things happening in combat as it happens like some shitty mmo.
>>47453047
>AUUGH YOU CAN'T DO THAT IN REAL LIFE
>AUUGH IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IIIIIII CAN'T DO THAT IN REAL LIFE IT'S MAGIC OKAY
Don't shitpost on company time, Jason Bulhman.
>>47453438
from what I understand you'd be asking permission (and the blessing) to change the direction or focus of a campaign, recognizing that you're sharing this campaign (and thus their time and attention) with several others. You're also asking if anybody will be upset at having certain elements in their game.
Not to 'just' 'roleplay your character.'
Or did I miss something?
>>47452111
Exp is a way to fractionalize a level or another abstraction of avatar strength. Such as dark souls using points to level other points. In this way they can be thought of as a funnel converting effort, time and risk into power to confront adversaries in a tense fashion.
Standard exp-to-level systems just treat exp as fractions of levels which are static and riskless. Ultimately this removes tension from adversary confrontation because you're "along for the ride" so to speak. The lack of risk of losing it means players trust that they always move forward at a gradual pace. The tension of not knowing if you're powerful enough to survive from now on is lost.
These are obviously general cases but it helps to break things down to basics.
>>47453235
Hey anon, why are you ignoring that melee gains abilities to attack multiple people and to attack multiple times?
Isn't that at least as good and probably better than ranged?
>>47453285
Olympians who train their whole life and even have a genetic advantage ARE heroic, do you even know the source word for Olympics?
>>47453501
Whoops, meant to reply to >>47453420
>>47453481
>Strawman, fuckface.
I have repeatedly asked for *anyone* to present a scenario where an ordinary, well adjusted, modest character would be even placed into a situation like that, let alone how it would be "fun" for him to go with the flow on that.
So yeah... you can't even think of a situation where it would begin to apply.
>"BUT IT'S WHAT MY CHARACTER WOULD DO!"
20+ years of roleplaying, never have been in a situation even *remotely* close to that. And since nobody can even begin to think of a situation where it'd apply... yeah.
>Go suck off a shotgun, faggot.
Your tears are a fine wine to me.
>>47453504
So like, something along the lines of, "Is it alright if I have my character join the antagonist camp and get personalized adventures" kind of thing? Yeah, I could see that, especially since it may require hours of work for the ST.
>>47453555
Oh, I see.
Kill yourself, Virt.
>>47453420
You're misinterpreting the rules, the jump is part of the movement and takes one turn.
And that 16 feet is them not even having to roll.
And you still haven't read >>47453228
Please read it and stop being retarded. (In the non-4chan way)
>>47453509
>Standard exp-to-level systems just treat exp as fractions of levels which are static and riskless. Ultimately this removes tension from adversary confrontation because you're "along for the ride" so to speak. The lack of risk of losing it means players trust that they always move forward at a gradual pace. The tension of not knowing if you're powerful enough to survive from now on is lost.
What are you even talking about? How is that more "riskless?" Don't resort to "something something Dark Souls" in the response.
>>47453536
>Hey anon, why are you ignoring that melee gains abilities to attack multiple people and to attack multiple times?
You mean this?
Mighty Blow (2 Might points): You strike two foes with a single blow. Make separate attack rolls for each foe, but both attacks count as a single action in a single round. You remain limited by the amount of Effort you can apply on one action. Anything that modifies your attack or damage applies to both of these attacks. Action.
Notice that this is not melee-exclusive. Every other melee- or ranged-exclusive ability spells that out. You can use Mighty Blow with ranged attacks if you want to.
In fact, it works BETTER for Speed-based attacks (melee or ranged) than Might-based attacks (always melee), because if you have both Might Edge and Speed Edge from Extra Edge back in tier 1, you can use both your Might Edge to reduce the cost of Mighty Blow and then your Speed Edge to reduce the cost of spending Effort on one attack.
>>47453581
A swing and a miss.
Intriguing that you consider Virty's slew of snuff enthusiast PCs to be "reasonable and well adjusted" however. Says a lot about you.
>>47453583
My point is, any system where you can do something with an ability or magic that you couldn't do with mundane skills is shit.
>>47453583
>You're misinterpreting the rules, the jump is part of the movement and takes one turn.
I am referring to the short move running start (50 feet), which DOES up take your turn.
What do the rules say about that?
>In a round, as an action, a character can make a short move. In this case, he is doing nothing but moving up to about 50 feet (15 m). Some terrain or situations will change the distance a character can move, but generally, making a short move is considered to be a difficulty 0 action. No roll is needed; he just gets where he’s going as his action.
>A character can try to make a long move—up to 100 feet (30 m) or so—in one round. This is a Speed task with a difficulty of 4. As with any action, he can use skills, assets, or Effort to decrease the difficulty. Terrain, obstacles, or other circumstances can increase the difficulty. A successful roll means the character moved the distance safely. Failure means that at some point during the move, he stops or stumbles (the GM determines where this happens).
>A character can also try to make a short move and take another (relatively simple) physical action, like make an attack. As with the attempt to make a long move, this is a Speed task with a difficulty of 4, and failure means that the character stops at some point, slipping or stumbling or otherwise getting held up.
Feel like trying your luck with a Might roll AND a Speed roll?
>>47453613
Oh, a RAW reading doesn't work. Cypher system was meant for people with basic reading comprehension. This isn't ad hominem, I'm pointing out that you failed to read it.
>>47453624
Oh, cute, you've learned to try and deflect from your own past postings.
Kill yourself, Virt.
>>47453627
Your statement needs more nuance.
>if you can't resurrect dusty bones with mundane skills, its shit
etc.
Taken to its logical conclusion, you would seem to be against any supernatural phenomena that aren't a copy of a normal action (ie. fireball and lightning bolt have pretty mundane analogs, rezzes and teleports not so much).
>>47453668
I guess that's true, fireball is no different than moving farther than a normal ornal human could and is therefore bad.
>>47453658
Its entertaining to see someone so badly shaken that they assume someone to be the bogeyman for... not liking metagaming.
>>47453228
>The point you can't grasp is the part where a person sacrified other aspects to enhance their magical and imaginary character.
his point is that another character can sacrifice the same amount and get much less for it
>>47453555
>20+ years of roleplaying
Ohh, you're one of those OSR faggots who brag about their experience letting them know the one true way to play and speak with absolute authority on all matters. At least I presume you are, that tends to be the only sort who brags about how long they've been playing.
>>47453228
>The point you can't grasp is the part where a person sacrified other aspects to enhance their magical and imaginary character.
And my point (and the point others have made) is that that requires far less investment for far greater a result, and it's justified with
>mumble mumble it's supernatural grumble grumble simulationism only applies to you, who cares about "balance"
>>47453687
It's not less, it's different. So that's not his point because that would be wrong.
>>47452546
You do realize "small incremental investment done shittily" and "large incremental investment done shittily" are the same issue and independent of whether there are levels.
If skills are broken and unbalanced it's not the way you invest XP that is the problem, just like taking a level in 3.pf wizard versus 3.pf rogue is miles apart. At least without levels you can always learn something new and invest more into being useful while with levels ?and classes) you are shit out of luck if you choose poorly.
>>47453692
I started with something past the cutoff for OSR, to be sure.
Also, "one true way to play" my ass, the argument is that all players MUST metagame or they're Virt. Which is... the very definition of a "one true way to play" mindset.
>>47453693
Exactly! It's not fair! You could train in torch-making, and have less light than the guy who did multiple customizations (an optional rule) for an extra edge and spends points from his pools to make light with "magic"
>>47453712
>it's not less
Oh, so you're just baiting, then.
>>47453736
>spend points in x
>or spend points in y
>y is better almost by an order of magnitude by the way
Heh. That'll show those dumb bullies.
>>47453712
>It's not less, it's different.
it's not the same but it's similar enough to make a comparison. one character is clearly getting more bang for their buck.
>>47453736
>multiple customizations (an optional rule) for an extra edge
You mean ONE customization.
Weakness: A weakness is, essentially, the opposite of Edge. If you have a weakness of 1 in Speed, all Speed actions that require you to spend points cost 1 additional point from your Pool. At any time, a player can give his character a weakness in one stat and, in exchange, gain +1 to his Edge in one of the other two stats. So a PC can take a weakness of 1 in Speed to gain +1 to his Might Edge.
Normally, you can have a weakness only in a stat in which you have an Edge of 0. Further, you can’t have more than one weakness, and you can’t have a weakness greater than 1 unless the additional weakness comes from another source (such as a disease or disability arising from actions or conditions in the game).
Every adept wants this ANYWAY.
>>47453728
No, you unbelievable faggot. We're calling you a Virt-tier moron for your braying about how someone's spineless for daring to talk shit out like a fucking adult.
>>47453740
Training in climbing and jumping has different benefits than teleporting along a clear-open path while spending points to do so. If you had 0 points in the pool or weren't Hale you couldn't even do it.
>>47453736
>Optional rule
Holy shit, I didn't even notice Touhou fag was using an Optional rule for the extra edge.
>>47453412
I've been playing FFG lately, but I don't recall anything like that happening.
>>47453767
>Weakness
>More optional rules
>Gimping your abilities in a game that specializes in attacking all three of your pools
Good way to end up dead.
>>47453780
Even without optional rules, you can get Intellect Edge 1 -> Intellect 2 with a 4 XP advancement.
Which, I might remind you, every adept wants anyway? And is required to increase in tier?
>>47453803
Might Weakness -1 and Intellect Edge 2 is very good!
You just have to NOT spend points from your Might pool, which is a good thing because you want to conserve it to absorb hits anyway. A win-win for an adept.
>>47453805
So just pile on even more character investment ment and ignore >>47453803
>>47453713
>are the same issue and independent of whether there are levels.
You're somewhat more likely to get new abilities for hitting Swordsman Level 3 than Melee 3.
>If skills are broken and unbalanced
Whoa whoa whoa, you're jumping from topic to topic. Pinpoint advancement incremental modifiers to bonuses are not some rare fluke for no-level, no-class RPGs, don't you dare pretend that they are.
>like taking a level in 3.pf wizard versus 3.pf rogue is miles apart
Yes, taking a level of 3.x rogue nets you 8+int mod skills and is generally going to be better (even from UMD alone) than a single level of wizard. Rogue vs wizard is an entirely different consideration in 3.5 and PF past the single level as well: level 11 wizard nets a skill cap of 7 in most of the adventure-pertinent skills that a rogue would get at a skill cap of 14, whereas its 11 vs 14 in PF. In general, 3.5 rogue vs wizard is fairly closely matched: generally the wizard is much better, but to a varying degree (featureless flat plains favors the wizard, and the rarer trap filled dungeon + solo adventure favors the rogue). Also, you will note that in 3.x, noncombat skills are quite separate from magic and combat "skills."
That's one reason I like class/level stuff in theory (lets not pretend that, again, 3.x works that great in practice); skills are a part of class/level/etc. but they're not the whole story.
>>47453773
And yet, tragically, you are unable to posit even a
SINGLE SCENARIO where a player should be forced to ASK PERMISSION for what his well adjusted, mild mannered, reasonable character would do (ie., not a 40kish type char, not a Virt-ish type char, not a klingon-ish type char, etcetera).
>>47453805
>>47453818
It's strange that people try and screw themselves with specialization. They focus everything into one thing, then end up trying to swim against current in a running river and drown.
>>47453803
Taking speed and int damage is very normal, but it surprises the fuck out of min-maxers. So does taking normal damage sometimes.
>>47453834
An adept gains MUCH more from going Intellect Edge 1 -> 2 and Might Weakness 1 than a warrior gains from going Might Edge 1 -> 2 and Intellect Weakness 1.
Might is terrible to spend points on because Might is literally your HP in combat.
Right from the books, what do Might, Speed, and Intellect each cover?
>Might defines how strong and durable your character is. The concepts of strength, endurance, constitution, hardiness, and physical prowess are all folded into this one stat.
>Speed describes how fast and physically coordinated your character is. The stat embodies quickness, movement, dexterity, and reflexes. Speed governs such divergent actions as dodging attacks, sneaking around quietly, and throwing a ball accurately. It helps determine whether you can move farther on your turn.
>[Intellect] determines how smart, knowledgeable, and likable your character is. It includes intelligence, wisdom, charisma, education, reasoning, wit, willpower, and charm. Intellect governs solving puzzles, remembering facts, telling convincing lies, and using mental powers.
Intellect covers as much as Might and Speed combined. Cypher could not be any more "jocks drool, nerds rule" if it was trying to. And the nerds are ALSO the socially suave ones in Cypher!
>>47453916
>Taking speed and int damage is very normal
Might damage is more common than any of these because Might damage is what physical attacks from NPCs default to sapping away.
This is why spending points from Might is bad.
>>47453906
Cry more about those spineless people triggering you for talking about shit like adults, faggot.
>>47453943
>a personal preference to not ask for permission to play my own character means I'm triggered by others who do
ok
>>47453942
Might is not literally your hit points, all three pools are. Might is also the pool where it's hardest to take any appreciable damage too.
The problem may be in you, in all the published Cypher settings almost 50% of all enemies, poisons, traps, anything can damage either int or speed.
This is in the rules if you need to read them. Also, lol at the descriptions words being longer so it "covers more things"
Are you guys defending a Monte Cook game's rules?
>>47453996
Yeah, intelligent discussion comes from defending the truth and based on merits, not some internet meme.
>>47453978
No one's said shit about 'asking permission' but you, you utter fucking faggot. It's a strawman you've been pushing this whole goddamn time, because you have literally nothing else.
What literally everyone else has said is talking shit out like adults, to keep games from grinding to a halt or self-destructing.
Take your 20+ years of RP and shove it up your ass, moron. If you can even fit it, I know your head's already up there and it takes a ton of space.
>>47453996
He's basically the father of 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons, one of the best balanced and immersive roleplaying systems ever. Notably, 3rd edition bloomed into the OGL, giving us a wealth of RPGs that aren't just for playing Tolkien medieval fantasy, but also for modernistic, science fiction, and post apocalyptic RPGs as well!
Monte Cook continues this proud tradition with the Cypher rules, which are versatile enough to play in any era, even though they are primarily an extension of Monte Cook's award-winning Numenera role-playing game, an RPG in which billions of years into the dark future of Earth, the human race has finally returned... and the world will never be the same!
>>47454048
What the fuck is that pasta from?
>>47454035
Ok, just so I'm understanding you:
1. If you don't want to metagame, you are a horrendous prick;
2. Because you think there is more than one way to roleplay acceptably, you believe there is only one way to play.
3. The only way to play like an adult is to ask permission to play your own character.
4. Yet nobody can conceive of a single situation where this is necessary for a well adjusted character to have his player ask permission to avoid destroying the game.
Cry more.
>>47453942
Because of the way armor works, you have to have challenges that deal speed and intellect damage. Armor reduces damage dealt to might by a huge amount and it sucks that the adept tends to not be able to access it.
>>47454096
Wow, it's amazing you can get every single point wrong. I'm legitimately impressed at how ignorant and bloodyminded you're capable of being. You must have a lot of practice.
>>47453991
>The problem may be in you, in all the published Cypher settings almost 50% of all enemies, poisons, traps, anything can damage either int or speed.
List of enemies in the Cypher System Rulebook that can deal damage to Speed or Intellect:
Enthraller: Might damage OR Intellect damage
Ghost: Might damage OR Intellect damage
Giant Snake: Might damage OR Speed damage
Giant Spider: Might damage OR Speed damage
Mi-go: Might damage OR Intellect damage
Nuppeppo: Might damage OR Speed damage
Scrap Drone: Might damage OR Speed damage
Shadow Elf: Might damage OR Speed damage 1/6th of the time
Supervillain, Mister Genocide: Might damage OR Speed damage
Tyrannosaurus Rex: Might damage OR Speed damage
Witch: Might damage, Speed damage, OR Intellect damage
NPC, Secret Agent: Might damage OR Speed damage (only sometimes)
List of enemies in the Cypher System Rulebook that can deal damage only to Might:
Blitzer
Chimera
Chronophage
Crazr
Deep One
Deinonychus
Demigod
Demon
Devil
Djinni
Dragon
Dream Sallow
Elemental, Fire
Elemental, Earth
Fallen Angel
Ghoul
Giant
Giant Rat
Goblin
Golem
Grey
Kaiju
Killing White Light
Mechanical Soldier
Mokuren
Neveri
Ogre
Orc
Philethis
Ravage Bear
Replicant
Scrap Drone
Skeleton
Slidikin
Statue, Animate
Supervillain, Anathema
Supervillain, Doctor Dread
Supervillain, Magnetar
Supervillain, Wrath
Vampire
Vampire, Transitional Vampire
Vampire, Vampire Lord
Vat Reject
Wardroid
Wendigo
Werewolf
Xenoparasite
Zhev
Zombie
NPC, Assassin
NPC, Crime Boss
NPC, Detective
NPC, Guard
NPC, Occultist
NPC, Thug
NPC, Wizard, Mighty
So, we have 10 enemies that can damage Speed or Intellect, 2 enemies that can damage Speed or Intellect only sometimes... and 56 who can damage only Might.
>>47454096
what is a 'well-adjusted character'
Is it just a catch-all for "a character that would obviously never conflict with the rest of the party"?
Because if so, of course there won't be a problem. you've already decided not to have any possible conflicts with any other party character - which seems like the kind of metagaming that is being discussed?
This argument seems a bit inane.
>>47454071
Its not pasta, its just a small piece of the smorgasboard of roleplay and adventurous wonder that Monte Cook's game offerings will bring to you. He is the father of the award winning Ivory Tower school of RPG design, guaranteed to be a treat enjoyable to all ages and one of the great visionaries of his time. Stay tuned for Numenera the video game!
Disclaimer: Numenera the video game doesn't actually use any of the RPG rules whatsoever.
>>47454135
>Disclaimer: Numenera the video game doesn't actually use any of the RPG rules whatsoever.
Fucking hell, vidya devs did this shit again? Great, thanks. Not like Numenera has much of a setting, so what we're just getting is "some post^7-apoc game with some 'weirdness.'"? Well, whatever.
>>47454096
Congrats on building an ever bigger strawman, I guess. I'm done wasting time with you, faggot.
I sincerely suggest anyone else do the same, this moron has his head so far up his ass he's seeing the backs of his teeth.
>>47454120
NONE of the types in the Cypher System Rulebook start off with armor. None at all.
A Warrior can take Practiced in Armor, wear light armor for Armor 1 and suffer no penalties, wear medium armor for Armor 2 and suffer effective Speed Weakness 1, or wear heavy armor for Armor 3 and suffer effective Speed Weakness 2.
Speed Weakness is awful to have because Speed rolls are what you default to for physical defense.
An adept can take this.
>Ward: You have a shield of energy around you at all times that helps deflect attacks. You gain +1 to Armor. Enabler.
This is EXACTLY as effective as a warrior taking Practiced in Armor and wearing light armor.
Adepts are no more fragile than warriors. If anything, warriors who use Might are more fragile than adepts because they drain their Might regularly!
>>47454131
Cypher system isn't one of the games 3 published settings. It's a generic rulebook.
>>47454135
You've never actually read the Ivory Tower post, have you? Monte Cuck wasn't the lead designer for Ivory Tower.
Know why he's demonized? Because he apologized for it and brought attention to it while the other designers said nothing.
He's the one who coined the term in a negative light in the first place.
>>47454132
>what is a 'well-adjusted character'
Generally, one that, were they not an adventurer/rebel alliance member/troubleshooter/whatever, would be a productive member of society with fairly normal morals and who is aware that he likely can't save the day if he omits the rest of the party, but isn't going to stomach needless cruelty like torture and the like.
You keep acting like this is unnecessarily subjective, but there's a pretty easy line between PCs that stab things because they basically have to for legitimate self defense and the defense of others, and PCs who, were they not adventurers, would definitely be stabbing people for fun or profit.
Campaigns imploding due to players acting out tend to be the result of characters who are severely mentally ill or alienated.
>>47454248
List of enemies in the Strange core rulebook that can deal damage to Speed or Intellect:
Monitor: Might damage OR Intellect damage
Sirrush: Might damage OR Intellect damage
Variokaryon: Might damage OR Intellect damage
Venom Trooper: Might damage OR Speed damage
List of enemies in the Strange core rulebook that can deal damage only to Might:
Angiophage
Betrayer's Homunculi
Cataclyst Roach
Chaosphere Hierarch
Cypher Eater
Dark Energy Pharaoh
Demon of Lotan
Dlamma
Dragon
Giant
Gnathostome
Golem
Green One
Hydra
Inkling
Jabberwock
Kray
Kro Courser
Marroid
Monitor
Myriand
Nezerek
Qephilim
Qinod Construct
Sark
Shoggoth
Soulshorn
Spirit of Wrath
Spore Worm
Thonik
Umber Wolf
Utricle
Vaxt
Winged Monkey
NPC, Argent
NPC, Guard
NPC, Criminal
NPC, Commander
NPC, Recursor
NPC, Technician
NPC, People of Renown, Cinticus Z
NPC, People of Renown, Professor Moriarty
Final count: 4 enemies that can deal damage to Speed or Intellect, 42 that can deal damage only to Might.
You were saying?
>>47454177
Couldn't think of a single example of his oh so necessary litmus test, so he retreats in shame. Bye.
So much for a one true way to play when you can't even think of one example.
>>47454296
>You've never actually read the Ivory Tower post, have you?
Of course I have, I've read all of the posts on Monte Cook's award winning blog as they're very wise advice regardless of whether or not you're playing fantastic games such as Monte Cook's World of Darkness.
>Know why he's demonized?
Its because there are some players known as "That Guys" who don't understand that in a verisimilitudinous milieu that has "real roleplaying," a character who can bend reality with his mind obviously can't be threatened by a Meat Head jock.
Of course there will always be those who think Q from Star Trek could be stopped by some guy who learned to swing a sword.
>>47453991
>Also, lol at the descriptions words being longer so it "covers more things"
Intellect covers literally everything to do with your mind, from knowledge to perception to social skills to willpower.
Everything to do with your body gets split up between Might and Speed.
Why?
>>47453991
>trying to argue about percentage to Touhou-fag
Nigga, you dumb. He's as autistic about numbers as he is bad about knowing how RPGs actually play outside of theorycrafting.
>>47454559
I would rather have types like Chung and Adslahnit stresstest RPGs than them just be playtested by yesmen, which seems increasingly the rule.
Not to mention everything on the topic of Cypher seems spot on.
>>47453991
>Might is also the pool where it's hardest to take any appreciable damage too.
I refer you to this: >>47454205
Wherein warriors are no more durable than adepts and vice versa, and if anything, are LESS durable if they opt for a Might build.
>>47454601
So wait, if I want to play a sword jock, he has to spend his hit points to use his jock powers?
>>47454597
>Not to mention everything on the topic of Cypher seems spot on.
If you think this, you're retarded. It's all inaccurate.
>>47454597
>Not to mention everything on the topic of Cypher seems spot on.
2/10
>>47454205
>speed weakness
You realize a very small pool reduction is not nearly the same as a Weakness, which is the opposite of edge, right? Terminology matters.
>>47454462
Turns out that what can happen to you, what you can do, and what is. Is a lot more than what is your mind. Our minds are fancy but ultimately nothing when compared to the scope of reality, the universe doesn't care that you are capable of doing math in your head. No offense, I do like your quirks.
>>47454601
1 armor is nothing compared to having 4+ armor in Cypher System. Turns out they end up being MORE durable by a considerable margin just by going up to heavy armor.
>>47454410
This is an interesting post.
>>47454641
So far he's been spot on as far as how mightfags are essentially committing suicide in combat, the probability you will be attacked by might vs anything else (ie. yes, expect might attacks) how they are not actually more durable, how missile weapons are blatantly preferable to melee weapons, and how moving into melee in the middle of combat is outrageously slow.
>>47454630
Yup, and a mage has to spend his hit points, and a rogue has to spend his hit points too.
The only one who gets really good hit point protection is the jock, slightly unbalancing the game in sword jocks favor.
>>47454670
>Turns out that what can happen to you, what you can do, and what is. Is a lot more than what is your mind. Our minds are fancy but ultimately nothing when compared to the scope of reality, the universe doesn't care that you are capable of doing math in your head.
Wow, his post went right over your head.
>>47454683
>Yup, and a mage has to spend his hit points, and a rogue has to spend his hit points too.
What? I thought mage analogs just had to spend Intellect, which is stupendously rare as a damage type?
>The only one who gets really good hit point protection is the jock
Adepts and jocks are the same in that respect.
>>47454680
>outrageously slow
Nope, you can move up to 100 feet a turn, which is ridiculously far. 50 feet at any time. Ranged only shoots 100 feet too... So for any situation that isn't a wide-open plains, it's one turn.
>missile weapons blatantly preferable
Nope, they have ammo, use up a different stat pool that you need to dodge and has less armor, and they can't multi-attack as easily.
>Might will take the most attack
Sword-jocks will have more might, and can take more hits, they'll also probably have more armor, and take less damage to might.
>mightfags essentially committing suicide.
No, yeah, absolutely. It's risk vs reward, but anyone using any points is committing suicide.
>>47454630
You can always make a melee attack using Might or Speed.
"Melee attacks can be Might or Speed actions—player choice. Physical ranged attacks (such as bows and thrown weapons) are almost always Speed actions, but those that come from special abilities are probably Intellect actions. Effects that require touching the target require a melee attack."
Yes, even with a heavy weapon. If you must use a melee weapon, go for a Speed build (although taking Extra Edge for Might Edge 1 and Speed Edge 1 is still useful, because then you can follow up into taking Thrust and use it for free on your Speed-based melee attacks). Why you would want to use a melee weapon when ranged weapons are clearly better and require no arduous movement... well, that is on you.
>>47454670
>You realize a very small pool reduction is not nearly the same as a Weakness, which is the opposite of edge, right? Terminology matters.
You are wrong. Wearing armor DOES impose an effective Speed Weakness.
"Anyone can wear any armor, but it can be taxing. Wearing armor increases the cost of using a level of Effort when attempting a Speed-based action. So if you’re wearing light armor and want to use two levels of Effort on a Speed-based roll to run across difficult terrain, it costs 7 points from your Speed Pool rather than 5 (3 for the first level of Effort, plus 2 for the second level of Effort, plus 1 per level for wearing light armor). Edge reduces the overall cost as normal. If you are not experienced with a certain type of armor but wear it anyway, this cost is further increased by 1. Having experience with a type of armor is called being practiced with the armor."
If anything, this is even WORSE than a Weakness! It costs even more than a Weakness once you get to the second, third, fourth, etc. level!
>>47454710
Damage actually progresses to intellect, every single creature can deal intellect damage.
Since the adept will have a smaller might pool, and there are hefty penalties for emptying one of your three hp pools, they'll feel the burn of might damage more quickly than a sword-jock. It's not the same.
And no, despite adept's being able to get 1 armor, the sword-jock can get 3+, that's not equal.
>>47454744
>the sword-jock can get 3+, that's not equal.
If you want to ruin your speed, defeating the point of the exercise.
>>47454697
You mean, why is something that covers 10x as many things, split up into 2 stats. While something that covers 1/10th is a stat all it's own?
I dunno, explain it in layman's terms.
>>47454764
What?
A. It doesn't ruin your speed, see >>47454742
You can use speed or might for attacks.
And armor is far more valuable than almost anything else.
>>47454770
More accurate to ask why something that is typically 50% or more of your stats is one stat.
In D&D terms, Intellect is 3/6 stats for the price of one, in WoD terms its a whopping 6/9 stats for the price of one.
Not bad.
>>47454742
Armor just lowers your speed pool. Most people think it's straight up unbalanced how good it is.
>>47454811
Man, WoD and DnD are janky as fuck.
>>47454670
>Turns out that what can happen to you, what you can do, and what is. Is a lot more than what is your mind. Our minds are fancy but ultimately nothing when compared to the scope of reality, the universe doesn't care that you are capable of doing math in your head. No offense, I do like your quirks.
The universe does care about being strong-willed, perceiving details in the environment, being a good speaker, being knowledgeable, crafting objects, etc.
>1 armor is nothing compared to having 4+ armor in Cypher System. Turns out they end up being MORE durable by a considerable margin just by going up to heavy armor.
Heavy armor gives you armor 3 and gives you an effective Speed Weakness of 3. That is very bad. That is IF you are trained in heavy armor.
>>47454742
>>47454764
>>47454790
I just realized that armor is EVEN WORSE than I first thought. -1 Speed for light, -2 for medium, -3 for heavy is if you are TRAINED in the armor, as page 184 says. The penalty goes up by another 1 if you are untrained.
So, considering that adepts have this:
>Ward: You have a shield of energy around you at all times that helps deflect attacks. You gain +1 to Armor. Enabler.
Adepts are better at defending themselves than warriors! Adepts have +1 Armor at no cost. Warriors have to take an ability for training in armor, and then when they wear light armor, get Speed Weakness 1 (even worse than an actual Speed Weakness)!
And remember that physical defense defaults to Speed...
>>47454872
>armor 1 is better than armor 3+
Hahahahaha!
Those same attacks that the adept is using his speed pool to defend against, the warrior is taking 0 damage from!
>>47454868
What I find bizarre about White Wolf and D&D is that its Str/Con or Str/Sta vs Dex, when in reality if it was Str+Sta vs Dex and Agi, it'd still be worth it to get either of the latter methinks.
That's before realizing that in many cases in WW and D&D you can use dex to hit, to damage, to saving throws of certain kinds, to initiative, to reducing incoming damage (as in miss chances, or outright reducing the damage in Revised owod and onward), to more useful skills, etcetera.
>>47454855
Try the Cypher System Rulebook's rules for armor.
"Anyone can wear any armor, but it can be taxing. Wearing armor increases the cost of using a level of Effort when attempting a Speed-based action. So if you’re wearing light armor and want to use two levels of Effort on a Speed-based roll to run across difficult terrain, it costs 7 points from your Speed Pool rather than 5 (3 for the first level of Effort, plus 2 for the second level of Effort, plus 1 per level for wearing light armor). Edge reduces the overall cost as normal. If you are not experienced with a certain type of armor but wear it anyway, this cost is further increased by 1. Having experience with a type of armor is called being practiced with the armor."
A warrior with this:
>Practiced in Armor: You can wear armor for long periods of time without tiring and can compensate for slowed reactions from wearing armor. You can wear any kind of armor. You reduce the Speed cost for wearing armor by 1. You start the game with a type of armor of your choice. Enabler.
And light armor has Armor 1 and Speed Super-Weakness 1.
An adept with this:
>Ward: You have a shield of energy around you at all times that helps deflect attacks. You gain +1 to Armor. Enabler.
Has unconditional Armor 1 and does not gain a Speed Super-Weakness.
>>47454903
Warriors can get the ability to have 4 armor base, and ignore any "speed weakness" with any armor no matter what..
Meaning any creature of level 4 or lower (go ahead and look up just how fucking many of all the enemies in every book that is) will do 0 damage to him, and even the higher level ones will do little to no damage.
He won't even have to use his speed to dodge, he just rolls and takes it as a bonus, while the adept is using up his speed and praying for good rolls.
>>47454722
>Drumpf
>>47454744
>Damage actually progresses to intellect, every single creature can deal intellect damage.
Damage defaults to Might first, and having your Might pool drained down to 0 imposes a debuff on you.
>>47454947
>Warriors can get the ability to have 4 armor base, and ignore any "speed weakness" with any armor no matter what..
This is not how the ability in question works.
">Practiced in Armor: You can wear armor for long periods of time without tiring and can compensate for slowed reactions from wearing armor. You can wear any kind of armor. You reduce the Speed cost for wearing armor by 1. You start the game with a type of armor of your choice. Enabler."
"Anyone can wear any armor, but it can be taxing. Wearing armor increases the cost of using a level of Effort when attempting a Speed-based action. So if you’re wearing light armor and want to use two levels of Effort on a Speed-based roll to run across difficult terrain, it costs 7 points from your Speed Pool rather than 5 (3 for the first level of Effort, plus 2 for the second level of Effort, plus 1 per level for wearing light armor). Edge reduces the overall cost as normal. If you are not experienced with a certain type of armor but wear it anyway, this cost is further increased by 1. Having experience with a type of armor is called being practiced with the armor."
A warrior in heavy armor is reducing damage against them by 3, but all of their Speed pool expenditures cost 3 points more.
Remember that trying to move and attack in the same turn is a difficulty 4 roll unless you have a special ability for it.
>>47454947
>(go ahead and look up just how fucking many of all the enemies in every book that is)
That's the majority of enemies, especially when you weight them for how common they are. But there are still bigger monsters. It's strange that the warrior is taking 2 point of might damage from a cyborg T-rex assuming he fails his roll (0 otherwise) while the adept is taking however many speed points he damaged to himself regardless of roll (18+ on d20 to succeed without) + 5 points of might damage if he fails.
>>47454988
Sorry to rain on your parade, Warriors can get >"Mastery in Armor"
Which not only will not cost them any pre-requisite abilities such as Practiced in Armor, but reduces all their speed penalties from armor to 0, no matter what.
Guess what your adept can't get?
Here is another funny thing about physical attacks vs. magical attacks in Cypher. The Cypher System Rulebook tells us:
>Only skills gained through character type abilities or other rare instances allow you to become skilled with attack or defense tasks.
>If you gain a special ability through your type, your focus, or some other aspect of your character, you can choose it in place of a skill and become trained or specialized in that ability. For example, if you have a mind blast, when it’s time to choose a skill to be trained in, you can select your mind blast as your skill. That would reduce the difficulty every time you used it. Each ability you have counts as a separate skill for this purpose. You can’t select “all mind powers” or “all spells” as one skill and become trained or specialized in such a broad category.
In other words, unless you receive an ability that lets you do so, you cannot choose to be trained or specialized in attacks... but you CAN choose to be trained or specialized in mind blasts.
Why?
>>47455035
>Mastery With Armor: The cost reduction from your Practiced in Armor ability improves. When you wear any armor, you reduce the armor’s Speed cost to 0. If you select this ability and you already have the Experienced With Armor ability, replace Experienced With Armor with a different third-tier ability because Mastery With Armor is better. Enabler.
This is a tier 5 ability.
It requires this tier 1 ability as a prerequisite:
>Practiced in Armor: You can wear armor for long periods of time without tiring and can compensate for slowed reactions from wearing armor. You can wear any kind of armor. You reduce the Speed cost for wearing armor by 1. You start the game with a type of armor of your choice. Enabler.
What can tier 5 adepts have as an ability?
>Conjuration (7 Intellect points): You produce, as if from thin air, a level 5 creature of a kind you have previously encountered. The creature remains for one minute and then returns home. While present, the creature acts as you direct, but this requires no action on your part. Action.
or
>Create (7 Intellect points): You create something from nothing. You can create any item you choose that would ordinarily have a difficulty of 5 or lower (using the crafting rules). Once created, the item lasts for a number of hours equal to 6 minus the difficulty to create it. Thus, if you create a motorbike (difficulty 5), it would last for one hour. Action.
or
>Teleportation (6+ Intellect points): You instantaneously transmit yourself to any location that you have seen or been to, no matter the distance, as long as it is on the same world as you. Instead of applying Effort to decrease the difficulty, you can apply Effort to bring other people with you; each level of Effort affects up to three additional targets. You must touch additional targets to teleport them. Action.
Maybe this is just me, but it seems like the adept has a better choice of tools to influence an adventure with here, both in and out of combat...
>>47454947
>Warriors can get the ability to have 4 armor base
3 armor for heavy armor, not 4.
>>47454722
>Nope, you can move up to 100 feet a turn, which is ridiculously far. 50 feet at any time.
This requires a difficulty 4 Speed roll, short of taking the Fleet of Foot ability.
>Nope, they have ammo
Twelve arrows or twelve crossbow bolts in the "fantasy" equipment list cost as much as a burlap sack, a candle, three torches, or a "rusty and worn" knife.
50 rounds in the "modern" equipment list cost as much as a duct tape roll, a flashlight, or a day's worth of trail rations.
50 shots' worth of energy in the "sci fi" equipment list cost the same as a day's worth of survival rations.
>>47455047
Because one is All attacks and the other is an ability which is limited in scope and because of its cost to activate it penalizes edge when spending effort.
Look into your math-autism, know it to be true.
>>47452477
Cipher mechanics do indeed have this, but IMO its pretty cancer. Like, I don't even think that its unreasonable for people to be able to spend tiny amounts of XP on largely transient shit like they have in Cipher, I just think it defeats the notion of XP gauging parity between players if the ability isn't permanent.
Like, I don't think XP should ever be spent to say "This door, being ancient and elven is rotted and easy to break", but it could be "Yeah I made doors for a few years in elfland as a side job" and you PERMANENTLY gain a bonus to breaking any elven door.
Otherwise you trigger this horrid fucking cycle where anyone who burns XP on temporary shit is now behind the 8 ball and needs to burn XP for even more temporary boosts to keep up while the others just get slowly stronger than them.
>>47455229
They get a +1 armor when wearing armor ability.
>>47455124
They replace the tier 1 ability
The adept is spending an insane amount of points (7+) to use those abilities. He is damaging himself to fo those things, while being objectively MUCH more fragile and less good at dealing damage?
Sounds like a good tradeoff.
Not even bringing up Foci which are way more important than type and that warrior has full access too.
>>47455296
Then explain why it takes a tier 2 warrior ability just to pick up:
>Skill With Attacks: Choose one type of attack in which you are not already trained: light bashing, light bladed, light ranged, medium bashing, medium bladed, medium ranged, heavy bashing, heavy bladed, or heavy ranged. You are trained in attacks using that type of weapon. You can select this ability multiple times. Each time you select it, you must choose a different type of attack. Enabler.
This, which is itself limited to only a specific type of weapon.
>>47455350
>Permanently gain bonus to breaking elven doors
That is literally how it is described in Cypher.
Depends on the system
>>47455356
>They get a +1 armor when wearing armor ability.
"Practiced in Armor: You can wear armor for long periods of time without tiring and can compensate for slowed reactions from wearing armor. You can wear any kind of armor. You reduce the Speed cost for wearing armor by 1. You start the game with a type of armor of your choice. Enabler."
Practiced in Armor says no such thing. That would result in Armor 3, not Armor 4.
>They replace the tier 1 ability
"Mastery With Armor: The cost reduction from your Practiced in Armor ability improves. When you wear any armor, you reduce the armor’s Speed cost to 0. If you select this ability and you already have the Experienced With Armor ability, replace Experienced With Armor with a different third-tier ability because Mastery With Armor is better. Enabler."
Mastery With Armor requires Practiced in Armor. Mastery With Armor replaces only Experienced With Armor if you have that.
>The adept is spending an insane amount of points (7+) to use those abilities. He is damaging himself to fo those things, while being objectively MUCH more fragile and less good at dealing damage?
It takes 64 XP to reach tier 5. An adept with 68 XP probably has Intellect Edge 6 (or Intellect Edge 7 if they took Might Weakness 1).
That would make Conjuration and Create free, and significantly lower Teleportation's cost!
Conjuring powerful creatures, creating massive objects from thin air, OR teleporting the party great distances has far more impact on an adventure than wearing armor without speed reductions. Especially when the cost is trivial due to Intellect Edge.
Better question: why does Cypher do 'jocks get good at swording and armoring, magicians get to warp reality' all over again?
>>47455521
Because Monte Cook is a faggot
>>47455521
Because of award winning Ivory Tower (TM) game design, brought to you by Monte Cook, producer of best sellers like Monte Cook's World of Darkness.
>>47452111
Not if used as intended
>>47455356
>Not even bringing up Foci which are way more important than type and that warrior has full access too.
It is curious that you bring foci up, because adepts have access to them as well.
We all know that the single best foci in Cypher from tier 1 is Travels Through Time, because of this:
"Tier 1: Anticipation (1 Intellect point). You look ahead to see how your actions might unfold. You have an asset for the first task you perform before the end of the next round. Enabler."
Using this is free with Intellect Edge 1, which every adept has.
Also, I will concede one thing about equipment in the Cypher System Rulebook.
Equipment is actually SOMEWHAT balanced in a fantasy setting if the sample list of fantasy equipment is taken as gospel, because there, "bows" are two-handed Medium weapons despite being Expensive-price, and anyone with Practiced in Armor can choose Exorbitant-price "elven chainmail" as their armor for medium armor with no Speed reduction.
Then again, by this same logic, anyone entitled to a free weapon could presumably choose an "elven greatbow" or whatnot as a two-handed heavy ranged weapon...
>>47453247
>talking to people and reaching compromise to make a social activity fun for everyone involved and not just yourself is spineless
Today this putrid shithole reached a new low. I always knew it's filled with marginals and social dropouts but this post is in a class of its own
>>47455739
>yet they still can't come up with a single situation in which a well adjusted normal character's player should logically have to ask permission
Stay mad eternally.
>>47452111
>>47455739
Are you actually incapable of understanding human interaction?
What's actually GOOD about Cypher?
>>47457690
It isn't as overwrought and finnicky as 3.5?
>>47455776
>you can't come up with a situation for my strawman! Haha, I win!
>>47456717
Nigga, he ain't the one with brainproblems.
>>47452477
Those are called fate points. With roleplaying.
