What went wrong?
>Efe Ambrose
>No new CB
>Play our star striker out wide to accommodate your pointless signing
Rdgers out
A FUCKING ROCK
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>69508257
>Scottish football
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
for now we laugh
they will win 5-0 at home though
>>69508257
did the leaf dispute come to an end today?
>>69508257
Rangers went to shit. Hopefully when Rangers returns to scottish premier league, both clubs will have the motivation to become the best again.
Irish League confirmed for better than SPL
Did Brendan spend the entire summer working out?
Meanwhile TNS drew with the mighty Apoel Nicosia
Welsh football on the rise??
>>69508375
Rangers are back now.
>>69508407
Hyped for Crusaders destroying FC Kobenhavn tomorrow.
GIBRALTAR, GIBRALTAR
THE ROCK ON WHICH I STAND
MAY YOU BE FOREVER FREE
GIBRALTAR MY HOME LAND
Yes I'm actually from gibraltar
FULL TIME IMPS
U
L
L
T
I
M
E
I
M
P
S
If he mentions the golden word in response to this game I will have an orgasm
>>69508452
A FUCKING POLICEMAN
>>69508436
THAN YOU BASED GIB
>>69508436
Cheers for the wake up call to ensure we get rid of Ambrose
Enjoy losing 5-0 in Glasgow
>>69508469
A FUCKING POSTMAN
lincoln red what
> unironically losing to a team based on a rock
Oh, Brendan, how I wish you were still at Liverpool
>>69508436
Thank you based Gibraltar
Lmao at all the Celtic fans who celebrated when rangers went bust
my, how the semi-mighty have fallen
>>69508481
A FUCKING BRICKIE
What part of Lincoln are you guys from?
I'm from Red Imps
>population of 30000
>more independent than Scotland
>get God tier Spanish genes in our women instead of the shifty ginger one
>blow them out at football too
I am laughing
RED IMPS
Local fans singing BR You are getting sacked in the morning
>>69508543
Are you moor?
Was this Rodgers first game?
>>69508257
I can't tell you how glad I am that this commie, antifa-infested, SJW, muslim loving club lost
everybody who supports teams like celtic, livorno, st pauli, rayo vallecano etc. should be shot
>>69508455
ACTUAL QUOTES FROM BRENNY SHINY TEETH:
>A game that we dominated and had enough chances to score, but sometimes it can happen in games like that, one ball up the pitch and they’re in. We’ve given ourselves a bit of work to do. I saw enough from the game, we created enough to go through. Of course you never want to lose the game. You let the local team have their night, we press on, another week’s training and be better for it. There’s no embarrassment. We never took our chances and they took theirs. The second leg will be different.
even more deluded than when he was at livershit
>>69508436
tybgib
Brenny is seriously a gift from G*d
Hahahaha
They thought it was over when Deila left
Shithouse of a club from top to bottom
Happy 12th lads and remember, big jock knew
implying this wasn't proddies channelling dark magic around their bonfires
>>69508567
Last
>>69508436
Greetings British Clay. Keep the Atlantic safe from evil Commie scums? That's good.
I'd love to go to Gibraltar. Become a footballer.
>>69508436
How are people reacting there over Brexit?
>>69508588
what you got against protestants you catholic cunt?
I know players on my national team ask me anything
>>69508543
You're not more independent than Scotland. You're a British Overseas Territory. You have a bitch boy who decides on your shit.
You're about the same as Scotland.
>>69508436
RARE
A
R
E
>Bodgers
Just fuck my career up
>>69508615
How shit at football must you be not to be playing with them?
>>69508257
So is this worse than >Hibs 0-9 Malmo?
>>69508436
Are you part of the 800?
>>69508618
>You're about the same as Scotland.
Better at football though
>>69508576
AND MORE:
>There’s no panic. We’ve got enough quality here to get through to the next round. It’s a two-legged affair, our objective is to get through. I think the players gave everything that they had. The message (to the fans) is to stay calm. I always felt this qualification phase would be based on the second legs at home and we’ll need their support.
>muh parkhead atmosphere
>>69508612
im a protestant
>>69508644
>>69508570
Based Poland
>>69508644
Scotland scored 12 goals in two games into Gibraltar.
>>69508658
You're an anglican
sick of this anti catholic bigotry itt
This has to be a new low in Scottish football.
Wow.
>mfw Brenny has been cursed by Kek to fail for all eternity
A WEE STONE
should've played the vatican desu familia
>>69508643
Of course I am
>>69508612
Jesus calm down and enjoy this 12th mate
>>69508683
calm down, angus
>>69508655
Jesus, is this for real? I'm not even sure Rangers will need to sign a striker, should be able to walk the league with Waghorn and Miller.
>>69508708
Nice one lad
>>69508685
Only if he's in England. The Anglican church has virtually no presence in Scotland. Most Scottish Churches are presbyterian.
FULL
TIME
POLICEMAN
>>69508720
Don't forget based McKay
>>69508683
We just beat your champions though
With a team full of policemen and customs officers
Blown the Fuck out I'd say
>>69508772
Do you lads learn Spanish over there?
>>69508720
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/football/36775154
and another gem:
>It’s congratulations to them. It’s a good win for them. For us we accept it. Over the course of the two games if we didn’t get through I’d be concerned. We have to put it right in the next game. We’re making no excuses. We’ll be fine for the second game.
Buttannihilated.
>>69508720
Looks like we're signing that Joe Dodoo from Leicester too, he's meant to be pretty good.
WE'LL BE FUCKING SQUARE TO GO LIKE AT HOME YOU FUCKING CUNTS WE'LL SMACK YOUR FUCKING TRAP 5-0
>>69508743
The Anglican church has virtually no presence in England as well.
celtic prefers it when they are the wee team with no expectations.
small team psychology 101
> A FUCKIN POLICEMAN
>THE """"""""""""""""""INDIPENDENT COUNTRY""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" OF SCOTLAND
dad is going to beat my mum when he gets in from the pub tonight
>>69508751
my sides
>>69508772
But your league is literally "IMPSWINLOL" and has been for the last 14 years. It's even more one sided than the SPL.
So you winning isn't really impressive when you're the best of the lot in your country. You'll get twatted in Scotland.
>>69508832
>paddy assfrustration
>>69508832
taking the piss now
>>69508832
>winning isn't really impressive when you're the best of the lot in your country
Love the logic
>>69508832
>not that impressive
>policemen and taxi drivers
>A FUCKING ROCK
oh wow
>>69508832
>losing to full time policemee
>Celtic
>Small club
pick two
>>69508849
>Scotland
>Paddy
No.
>>69508859
Not really, good on them for winning, but 1-0 isn't going to prevent the raping away they're gonna get.
haha did the men not kick the ball right
>>69508826
How did she survive the night of the Scottish cup semi-final?
>Leave Scotland to me
>>69508794
Amazing.
>>69508798
I heard that tonight - pretty promising. Apparently he trained with the squad today.
>>69508832
Gibraltar Red Imps is a semi-pro team. Celtic has no business not beating them by at least 5 goals.
>>69508890
dad remarried
>leltic
>>69508863
Not really. If it was 3-0, sure. Not 1-0 in a two legged system.
>>69508865
>le force meme post
>>69508877
they're part time
>>69508883
"their country" is the size of oban, you obtuse cunt. this is most embarrassing result in the entire history of football.
They're saying this is the worst result in Celtic history.
Thoughts?
why celtic are surely the only team to get beat by a minnow ever
>>69508924
definitely. absolute shambles
Red Imps are worse than the actual Gibraltar national team, right?
>>69508924
Makes Clyde 2-1 Celtic look like a minor defeat.
>>69508832
>full damage control
>>69508924
Super Lincoln go ballistic, Celtic are atrocious
>tfw Rangers fan
Rodgers has no idea how to play with an average to abysmal squad that also has high expectations.
very few managers do
Holy fucking kek I only just saw the score
ABSOLUTE MADMEN
>>69508951
yes
>>69508951
Probably not. They have a bunch of foreign players.
>>69508951
The guy who scored the winner also scored Gibraltar's first ever competitive goal
>AGAINST FUCKING SCOTLAND
>>69508832
Honestly one of the most stupid posts I've ever seen here. Do you actually believe that?
>Celtic beaten by team named after the gayest fantasy creature
>>69508951
national teams are always worse than clubs because squad selection is restricted to nationality
>>69508951
Probably not since the Red Imps do have some Spanish and Portuguese players.
Lincoln Red Imps are worse than Lincoln City though for sure.
>>69508982
Honestly?
I just wanted (You)'s and I hate Scotland.
>>69508618
they have their own flag on 4chan m8
>>69508832
BEAT BY A TEAM OF RED IMPS
>Clive, Liverpool: "Thought the Scottish wanted to stay in Europe."
>>69508998
>I was merely pretending to be a dumb fenian
Nice try seamus
>>69508998
>I-I was only pretending to be retarded
>>69508425
>>69508375
Rangers can never come back, they are being liquidated by BDO.
You're thinking of the 'The Rangers', the club founded in 2012.
>>69509032
Do we get The Celtic now after they got destroyed tonight?
>>69508990
so red imps are better than germany?
>>69509032
>This dumb meme again
>>69509000
And? So does Bermuda, but they're still a British Overseas Territory that is managed by a bitch boy MP in London.
>>69509032
>2-2 (5-4)
What's it like losing against a dead club?
>>69509032
So you lost to a 4 year old team in a cup semi-final? Celtic really are an embarrassment
>>69509039
respective clubs*
>>69509032
>THIS MAD
back to Ireland Sheamus
>>69509026
>>69509030
I advise you to look up Socratic Irony. I know you're uncultured idiots, but Jesus fuck this shit should be basic knowledge.
>>69509032
>it's an educationally sub-normal football fan insisting his deeply limited knowledge of law exceeds that of highly experienced lawyers episode
>celtic lost to le imps XDDDDD
And? You can all fuck off. England loses to Chimps everyday because of all the fucking black niggers and muslim monkeys running about. enjoy your sharia law whilst we go and joint the EU, maybe Gibraltar can come with us and their shitty little tin pot club can become Celtics feeder team. We might even lend them a proper stadium, they only won tonight because of the fucking grass anyway. Absolute dump of a fucking stadium so who gives a shit?
The whole country of Gibraltar has less attendance than Parkhead. The atmosphere will be legendary as we BTFO out this fucking joke of a team and this little shit country. Reminder we beat Barcelona before, so why you think a fucking peninsula of their country has a chance is beyond me. Rodgers is proven as a better tactictian than 99% of the managers in England, really only Mourinho and Guardiola touch him. I have no doubt we will destroy them at home and qualify easily.
>>69509058
Tonights opponents only became semi-pro 3 years ago
>>69509053
they are a new club. can you read
>>69508990
Yeah but if you have a shit-tier league you're not recruiting many foreigners of worth and your best natives get poached. I'd say our NT is better than our best club.
>>69509066
Fucking go on and challenge our statements then ya halfwit
>>69509076
>they only won tonight because of the fucking grass anyway. Absolute dump of a fucking stadium so who gives a shit?
Hello, Brenny.
>>69509063
thank you
>>69509036
Fucking rekt
>>69509084
Its the same club with different ownership.
>>69509076
fake leltic fan
>>69509066
>I advise you to look up Socratic Irony
>>69509089
I did. I said that IMPSWINLOL isn't impressive winning and will get twatted in Scotland. Which is true.
>>69509076
This is too specific to be pasta.
>Lee Casciaro's second-half goal did the damage, the Ministry of Defence police officer outfoxing Efe Ambrose to score.
POLICE BRUTALITY!
>>69508570
>catholic team
>muslim lovers
What
>>69509076
>it's a furious Celtic fan pretends to be an ironic memester posing as a mad Celtic fan to deflect from how mad he really is episode
FULL TIME POLICEMEN
>>69509108
it's literally a different club with the same fans
>>69509066
>Socratic irony
Oh dear. I can smell the desperation from here.
>>69509076
Scotland has been told it cannot join the EU on it's own. Spain and Belgium also said they would veto any attempt for Scotland to join the EU on it's own.
>>69509108
It's not.
It's a different club, with completely separate owners.
If you are a creditor of 'Rangers', try asking 'Rangers' for your money back, then let me know if it's a new club or not.
>>69509076
>>69509137
Its literally not but whatever helps you sleep better.
>>69509120
No, that was the provocative statement said in apparent ignorance in order to make us respond, your challenge to the response is the entire purpose of Socratic irony
Jesus if you're going to bring Socratic irony up at least get it right you pseudo-intellectual shitehawk
wtf I hate football now
>>69508751
>in places like Nottingham, Sheffield and the Manchester City Youth Reserve Team.
>>69509150
Don't worry, he'll let go eventually. The majority of taigs gave up with the forced "zombie" meme when a certain "zombie" team outplayed them a few months ago
>>69508794
If they don't get through he'll be concerned? He'll be fucking sacked
>>69509147
I assume you'll be pushing for football clubs across the world to update their founding date to the time when their representative limited companies were formed?
>>69509181
See >>69508911
>>69508883
Retard. I'm done replying to you.
>>69509150
you pretty dumb. it is in every legal sense a different club witht he same spirit or history or vague notion you want to believe makes it a 'club'
>losing to a team called the fucking Imps
>from GIBRALTAR
>losing to a rock
holy shit i can't laugh hard enough
This sums up the whole evening.
Ah ha ha.
>>69509188
that wasn't a zombie club. it was a new club.
>>69509203
Cool straw man bro.
No-one mentioned that, only you.
>>69509032
>>69509147
They changed from Plc to Ltd
It's fucking nothing
>>69509205
I've enjoyed this. I'd advise you to look up Socratic Irony before bringing it up again though.
A FUCKING ROCK
>>69509207
>in every legal sense except the sense recognised by highly experienced lawyers and judges who were closely involved with the case or intimately familiar with its particulars
But I guess you're right because you're very clever.
>>69509230
rangers weren't a plc
>>69509225
That kit is awful. New Balance in general do wank kits from what I've seen.
>>69509230
lolwut?
This is rangers here : http://www.bdo.co.uk/services/business-restructuring/rfc-2012-plc-formerly-the-rangers-football-club-plc-in-liquidation
It didn't change to anything, it's still a Plc.
Help an ameribro out here
Is this say the equivalent of some once good coach, say Tony La Russa, going to now coach a new team only for said new team to lose in an actually important match against somehow a bunch of single A players?
>Scottish "football"
fucking lmao
>it's a "celtic thread derails into arguing over rangers's legal status" episode
>>69509147
If you are a deluded fan of 'Celtic', try asking 'UEFA', 'FIFA', or 'anyone that matters', then let me know if you're retarded or not
Post Yfw I have a flag on 4chan but Angus doesn't
>>69509252
the law and business recognise it as a different club you dolt . that's how they could come back.
>>69509267
Well, they haven't actually lost yet unfortunately. There's still the second leg, it's just really fucking embarrassing for them.
>>69509280
Why would I need to ask anyone?
Rangers couldn't pay its debts, Rangers went bust, that's it, there's nothing more to it.
The fact that you are confusing the new the 'The Rangers' club with Rangers is your own problem, not mine.
>>69509284
Rare
It's not even like they outplayed Lincoln
>>69509306
But the match ended 0-1 didn't it? Even losing a single game with a pro team like this is embarrassing?
>>69509274
small team upsets are boring. it's happened to literally every team. everyone knows what it's like. you take it and you move on.
and there's nothing 4chan likes better than squabbles about pernickety things like that
>>69509286
They don't, they recognise that a company owning a club is different to said club. I'll dumb it down for you. You own a potato. The Celtic Tiger fails and you become skint, and have to sell off your potato. Seamus now owns your potato. The potato remains a potato.
>>69509258
>>69509264
>Rangers, a football club in Scotland, entered financial difficulties during the late 2000s. The club, trading as The Rangers Football Club PLC, entered administration in February 2012.
>The Rangers Football Club PLC entered liquidation on 31 October 2012.
>Green then successfully applied for membership of the Scottish Football League.
>After obtaining the Scottish Football Association membership of the old company, Rangers (now trading as The Rangers Football Club Ltd) entered the Third Division
>>69509319
>71% possession to Celtic
Lincoln Red Imps on suicide watch
>>69509306
>Team A beats Team B
>Team B doesn't lose
:^)
>plastic paddies
>>69509325
>small team upset
This is far far FAR beyond that. You may as well have lost to a fucking Under-12 team.
>>69509063
Northern Irish and Irish leagues have worse league teams than the national team
>>69509286
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/fifa-insist-rangers-same-football-5752723#y5oF4M6KkO0PbaFO.97
>national and international governing bodies recognise it as the same club
>one of the nation's most experienced lawyers agrees
BUT... DA LAW... DA LAW...
>>69509319
>celtic having this happen to them
P O T T E R Y
>Great Britain still delivering the comedy gold
ayy lmao
>>69509330
club has no legal status only the business matters in this sense.
Are The Imps the new Leicester?
>>69509325
>losing to a club side from the worst UEFA nation
>you take it and you move on.
Is that you, Brenny?
If rangers are able to claim the old trophies then they are the same club
>>69509351
89% possession flipping hell. Has there ever been a higher possession stat in professional football?
>>69509331
Why would a club have to apply for it's own membership?
Do you realise how absolutely nonsensical that sounds to reasonable people?
>Gibraltar population: 30,001
>Celtic Park capacity: 60,832
So which club is the real Wimbledon, MK Dons or AFC?
>>69509349
define "club"
>>69509365
WEAR THE RED
WEAR THE IMP
>>69509394
The Wimbledon
What part of Lincoln Red Imps are you lads from?
>>69509267
It's like the eagles losing to random people if the street
>>69509342
>losing to part time players is the same to losing to 12 yos
no it's not.
it's just a small team upset.
>>69509394
the team in League One next season
>>69509362
Have you asked in a court? Because they disagree.
I'll try a similar argument, try reading. Mars bars are made by Mars incorporated. If something happened to Mars incorporated and they had to sell their assets, they could sell them to Cadburys. The Mars bar would still be a Mars bar.
>>69509337
I worded that badly, he asked if they'd lost in an actually important match.
To which the answer is, not yet. Obviously this defeat is fucking absurd though.
>>69509438
FULL TIME POLICEMEN
>>69509438
>it's just a small team upset.
Losing to Clyde and Caley in the Scottish Cup were small team upsets.
This is significantly worse because it's in European competition.
>>69509314
If it's not your problem you can probably stop bringing it up.
>mfw all this leltic butthurt
On the other hand, I am very pleased at how we've gotten so much recognition over the last couple of years.
>>69509379
It's false
>>69509452
the club isn't their product. the football is the product in our case
>>69509395
I don't need to, nor is it something anyone in this thread is qualified to do, but a leading judge did and the long and short of it is Celtic fans are talking rubbish.
Still, I suppose as a Celtic fan you're bound to develop some sort of antagonism toward the opinions of legal professionals.
>>69509455
>lost in an actually important match
>CL isn't important
If Lincoln score in the away leg, celtic would need to score 3 (three) to progress
>>69509390
That a real stat??
>>69509465
no it's the same thing in a different competition.
>>69509478
Naw the judge was a pyoor mason so he wus
>open BBC Sport
>"Celtic lose to semi-pro side from Gibraltar in Champions League"
>mfw
>Celtic
>>69509452
But fans of Mars bars would no longer walk around trying to convince people that it wasn't made by Cadburys, and was in fact still made by the Mars company.
That would be really stupid, wouldn't it?
>>69509469
Sorry son, the rock is ours.
Anyways, Thanks to your part time team for exposing brenlel rodgkek
>>69509478
I'm not. I agree it's the same club actually. but if people are being antagonistic towards me I'll be antagonistic back. surprise surprise i have little else to throw back at you. the situation and the place just makes me argue with you about this.
>>69509469
What's with the name anyway, I assume that they have some connection with Lincoln City FC or the city of Lincoln?
>>69509382
They were applying for membership of the League not the Association. They retained their Scottish Football Association membership but weren't allowed back in the Premier league so applied for the Football League instead.
Is this very hard to understand
>>69509475
The club is a brand, it produces football, shirts, fucking golf tees and tape measures, and it is ultimately owned by a company - The Rangers Football Club Ltd
>>69509472
Is it?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/celtic/9663926/Stats-How-Celtic-beat-Barcelona-despite-having-just-16-per-cent-possession.html
>>69509520
>the rock is ours
It's literally not
>>69509541
>The Rangers Football Club Ltd
which is different from the one it used to be.
>>69509513
And yet they'd be pretty sure that it's still a Mars bar. The same Mars bar they've grown up eating and loving. I don't think any Rangers fan isn't aware that the company that owns Rangers has changed.
>>69509510
Blimey Leigh Griffiths has let himself go
>>69509536
But Rangers were in the SPL?
The even voted to permit the new club, the 'The Rangers', to take their place.
Why would an SPL club apply to join the then SFL?
>>69509496
Yes
>>69509496
yes
Really Makes you think
>>69509565
Yup. The company is different. The company isn't the club. That's the legal opinion. You can think what you want, but you're factually wrong.
Memeing aside, can The Rangers win the Rainy La Liga next season?
>>69509554
There are differing reports because possession can be calculated differently
>>69509568
And fans of the 'The Rangers' are still watching a team play football, much as fans of Rangers did when they were still an active football club.
I'm not seeing what point you're trying to make here?
>>69509565
celtic sport and athletics club and Celtic FC are different to what they used to be, but I will accept that they're the same club.
Is a warm night in Gibraltar the new windy night in Stoke?
>>69509579
'The Rangers' fell through. The whole "hurr durr" new club" thing might have made sense if that actually happened, but it didn't.
>>69508436
RARE
A
R
E
THANK YOU BASED GIBRALTAR. YOU ROCK!
>>69509605
Yh BBC has it as 66% but Opta has it as 89% hmmm
>>69509613
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC003487
>>69509607
The Mars bar fans aren't now eating something else. It's exactly the same product, you don't have to call it "The New Mars Bar"
>>69509589
I acknowledge the club - history fans etc is the exact same. you act as though company is irrelevant.
>>69509500
Fucking hell I can't believe you're this far in denial.
The scenarios are nowhere near comparable.
Reminder
>>69509618
What part of 'Rangers couldn't pay it's bills, and so was placed into administration and subsequent liquidation' don't you understand or agree with, specifically?
>"""""luck"""""" of the irish
>>69509613
you're just letting dodgy dave away with it you know
will never know why rangers fans have instant respect for anyone who wears a tie and waves their wallet even when there's nothing in it. you'd think after all the turmoil they'd learn something