ITT: We name players (past and present) who were better than Cruyff.
I'll start. George Best.
In 1976, George Best was a shadow of the player who terrified back fours at Manchester United, but the Irishman was still extremely confident in his own abilities. Northern Ireland had a world cup qualifier coming up against Holland and George Best was included in the squad. British Journalist Bill Elliot was travelling with the Irish squad to the stadium. He asked Best, ‘what do you think of Cruyff?’ ‘Outstanding’ he replied. ‘Better than you?’. Best laughed, ‘You’re kidding aren’t you? I’ll tell you what I’ll do tonight… I’ll nutmeg Cruyff the first chance I get.’
This is Bill Elliot’s account of what happened next:
“Five minutes into the game Best received the ball wide on the left. Instead of heading towards goal he turned directly infield, weaved his way past at least three Dutchmen and found his way to Cruyff who was wide right. He took the ball to his opponent, dipped a shoulder twice and slipped it between Cruyff’s feet. As he ran round to collect it and run on he raised his right fist into the air.”
“Only a few of us in the press box knew what this bravado act really meant. Johan Cruyff the best in the world? Are you kidding? Only an idiot would have thought that."
Messi
>>66364693
sounds like a story a drunkard would tell you while laying down in pig shit... wait, he was a drunk piece of shit...
>manure
>>66364693
>muh george pest
>>66364693
>Unquestionable:
Messi
C.Ronaldo
Scholes
Fat Ronaldo
Maradona
Best
Charlton
>Questionable/arguable
Suarez
Henry
Martial
Zidane
Rooney
>>66364693
Great story. A half-pissed, past-it George Best styling all over a fully fit peak Cruyff. Magic.
I wonder how good Best could have been if he actually took the game seriously and didn't turn up to games wasted.
>>66364736
this.
pics or didn't happen
>>66364693
>ITT: We name players (past and present) who were better than Cruyff.
emile heskey
>>66364693
oh look another Britbong who thinks that a drunk winger with a 3 year prime was greater than someone who literally reinvented the game
>>66364807
>not Rashford
>>66364807
>rooney
>Manchester United
literally who
>>66364807
>Martial
kek
>>66364954
como estas get stabbed you spic fuck, nobody has and ever will give a fuck about your burnt skinned opinion you spicy freak
>>66364954
>reinvented the game
cancerlona fags are really deluded
>>66365035
lol did your girlfriend get some big chorizo on a girls holiday in Magaluf? chill out you ugly pasty drunk
>>66364954
>another Britbong
Only United fans claim Best was some sort of GOAT
>>66364954
>reinvented the game
As a player, Best was better, deal with it. He also had more raw talent and ability than Messi or Maradona.
>>66365116
George Best did not have more talent than Messi. He was just cocky as fuck.
t.Norn Irish man
>>66365042
which club has dominated the last 10 years of world football and who started it, Quetzalcoatl?
>>66365176
Yes he did. He was cocky because he could back it up.
I doubt Messi would last 5 minutes with the sort of 'challenges' that defenders were putting in on George Best back then. He would literally finish games bleeding from his legs all over.
>>66365084
>did your girlfriend get some big chorizo on a girls holiday in Magaluf?
you don't have to ask, they all do, and come back for more
>>66364693
What a fantastic story, he could nutmeg an ofensive minded player, this sure proves everything
There has never been a single English man with Cruyff's skill.
>>66365236
>>66365084
>thinking that white girls, or even hispanic/latin girls are attracted to manlets
>people think George Best wasnt good
the man was a legend on and off the field
Are Brits the most delusional people on this board?
Has living on a secluded island for so long fucked with their heads?
>>66365265
George Best was Northern Irish.
>>66365310
aka english
>>66365210
Fucking hate this argument. It's different era. Defenders back then were fucking awful. Literally Conference North tier. THat's why they kicked the shit out of players because they weren't physically or tactically adept.
If Messi played back then he would be scoring about 8 goals a game average.
>>66365265
Bobby Charlton
Bobby Moore
Stanley Mathews
Paul Gascoigne
Bryan Robson
David Beckham
Paul Scholes
Alan Shearer
Michael Owen
Rio Ferdinand
Sol Campbell
Ashley Cole
Steven Gerrard
Wayne Rooney
And in the future?
Kane
Sterling
Rashford
Who knows?
But there are a lot of English players with the ability of Cruyff.
>Player I've never seen was better than the other player I've never seen
>here's an uncited anecdote! Proof!
>Britbong delusion
Face it, you have never nor will ever produce a single world class player. The closest you've come is Michael Owen kek
>>66365337
This. An organised defence is much harder to break down than a physical defence.
>>66365296
george best is the old anthony martial, another ''''''''''world class'''''''''' manure turd
>>66365337
Messi falls over in agony every 10 minutes after being fouled.
In this era, he gets free-kicks, most of which he scores from and smiles as he waves to the fans in celebration.
Back then he'd be told to literally "fuck off" by the referee and the game would continue with Messi being dispossessed yet again. He'd probably be subbed off after 20 minutes or told to stop dribbling.
>>66365357
next level shitposting m8, respect it
>>66365386
The joke's on you, I genuinely believe it.
>>66365383
>Messi falls over in agony every 10 minutes after being fouled.
I suggest you stop making things up
>>66365359
FUCKING DELETE THIS RIGHT NOW
>>66365383
>Messi falls over in agony every 10 minutes after being fouled
you could at least bother watching messi play before commenting
Landon Donovan
Clint Dempsey
Jozy Altidore
>>66365408
>>66365401
I suggest you watch Messi play.
>dribble
>either get past defender or get fouled
>repeat
literally all he does, then the commentator makes some stupid comment to appease retards like you along the lines of "haha oh wow you can't stop that little magician can you? what a player, defenders are resorting to hauling him down because they can't get close to him!!!"
>>66365399
the joke is most certainly not on me m8
>>66365435
>shitpost
>make yourself look like a retard
literally all you do
>>66365435
messi is literally the incarnation of jesus christ
he has absolutely perfect dribbling, passing, and shot accuracy.
he can and does whatever he pleases, and if something goes wrong then somehow the ball still bounces in his favor
he is honestly the GOAT and if you can't see that then you are deluded
but i should've honestly checked your flag before i read your opinion.
discarded tbqh.
i think it's close between Best and Cruyff (based on what i've seen) don't think there's an obvious answer as to who was best
in the modern day the only players i've seen close to either of them are
>c. ronaldo
>messi
>rooney
and for a brief time henry, ronaldinho, zidane, scholes and kaka
but threads like this are dumb, just respect the loss of one of the game's biggest legends
>>66365383
>I have literally never watched Messi play in my life
>full 90 minute games i've seen of Cruyff
0 (zero)
>full 90 minute games i've seen of Best
1 (68 european cup final)
based on that I'd say Best is better but this is based on highlight clips i've seen of both players on youtube
>>66364693
Best was a Hibs cunt
>unironically playing for Hibernian FC
No wonder he turned into a jakey bastard
>>66365435
>dribble
>either get past defender or get fouled
>repeat
so he doesn't fall over in agony every 10 minutes anymore? lel and somehow he manages to always be one of europe's top scorers and playmakers/assists every season
Watch him play before making shit up
>>66365558
Are you retarded?
I didn't say he DOESN'T get success from his antics.That's the whole point you deluded fuckhead. In the 60s he would not have done.
He would have been kicked off the pitch and laughed at for being a weak, manlet cunt with no talent.
>>66364693
Michel
Butragueño
Martin-Vazquez
Chendo
Sanchis
Hierro
Casillas
Del Bosque
Well, no, not Del Bosque
>>66365599
A tactically organised defence is much harder to score against than a bunch of hacking brutes
>>66365599
Well, put George Best in the modern era and he'd be playing non League football within a year.
>>66364693
Michael Laudrup
>>66365633
Source?
>>66365663
Literally no idea what you're going on about.
If George Best played in the modern era with modern sports science, fitness experts and alcohol tests he'd score 6 in every game and would win the Ballon Dor every year for 12 years in a row.
>>66365704
Modern sports science doesn't have a cure for being an alcoholic retard.
>>66364693
Guti
Best is probably the most overrated player of all time, simply because he's British.
>MUH EMPIRE
>MUH ANDY MURRAY
>>66365732
Clubs back then tolerated it. It was even encouraged by some managers.
Doesn't happen in modern football
>>66365751
how does that work when england and scotland both hate norn ireland?
>being this butthurt about andy murray
>>66364693
Suarez
Gerrard
Sterling
>>66365756
He didn't stop drinking when he had to steal to afford alcohol, when he was thrown to jail or when his life was literally in danger after a liver transplant.
What makes you think he'd stop because the manager told him so?
Best is the sport's first meme
was an international level player for a couple of seasons at most and then returned to his #topLAD life
sure, he makes good stories, but as a player he's inferior to Crujiff in every aspect
Charlton will always be the better player
>>66365704
he would be another Cassano
you can't achieve anything today with raw talent alone
>>66364693
Gary Neville
>>66365296
this
>>66365470
>rooney
omg dont know if bait o so fucking delusional
no one in the entire world except the deluded british people will mention rooney
>>66365896
Peak Best was better than peak Croyf.
Croyfts legacy is better though.
>>66366019
Come back when Messi or Cruyff scores a goal like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjWfcIr8JO4
>all these butthurt spics and argies
fuck off
not everything is a british conspiracy you fucking faggots, sometimes people just have opinions different to your own
maybe you're shocked to find out that the hype surrounding cruyff or messi in your own countries, does not match the hype about them in other countries.... WOW.... how about that!?
>>66366098
so what. millions of players score goals like this, im not impressed, and overall rooney abilities are not even close to the best players of history,
rivaldo in barcelona scored an even better goal but not for that goal we will put him at the same level or cruyff messi is ridiculous.even when rivaldo was a tremendous player even better than your overrated rooney. you and all the people here in sp, knows how delusional people of your country are., so argument with you is pointless
>>66366329
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCwxlyN3B0E
>>66366201
you sound the most butthurt in the thread pal, mad that everyone else in the world doesn't think your lush is the greatest player ever to touch a ball?
>>66366098
shinner
>>66366343
Nowhere near as good as Rooney's.
He took a touch.
That was NEARLY, but not quite as good as Berbatov's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tk495J14u78
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BqMIXg1PQs
>>66366329
>Rivaldo
>Better than Rooney
Get a load of this Barca bandwagoner.
>>66364807
>Scholes
Too evident the team you root for.
>>66364693
>couldn't even get Northern Ireland to the World Cup or Euro
I don't rate him one bit.
>defense back then was tougher
Do you cucks not know that the best players simply jumped the tackles? This is something Messi can also do, or he can simply take them with his 100tons of muscular mass like in the Bilbao goal.
On the other hand, defenders back then were simply shit. Not only because individually, kids grew up playing street football and hating defense therefore the "players" in those positions were not even close to the standard that attacking players required, but also collectively the tactical aspects of defending were barely even developed beyond "mark your closest player", therefore defenses were sloppy as 11-man collectives.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZXoE0pWLAs
Look at how far away each player defending is from each other, how much space is afforded to play 1v1 games with nearly 10 meters of space even in the middle of the pitch, how simple-minded most defenders are simply rushing forward trying to tackle the ball off a player who has it dominated instead of waiting and closing space like they do today.
Dribblers had it way, way easier back in the day, because their slight mistakes in ball control and conduction (i'm talking centimeters) were not punished. Nowadays you either dribble like Messi, with the ball glued to your feet, or you won't do shit against organized defense (i.e. outside of fast breaks).
first time I've heard of this literally who george best
El Salvador will rise within three days
>>66365337
He has the ability to score 8 goals a game against those defenders, but that would be difficult to keep up as he'd be permanently on his arse.
Also the pitches were such a state he wouldn't really be able to replicate how good he is anyway.
In fact at his height he would have found it hard to get a game in Europe. I wonder how many goats went under the radar because of no HGH.
>>66367339
>muh hgh
lel still butthurt messi deprived your team of two cl
>>66367339
>Also the pitches were such a state
Did you forget where Messi grew up?
Argentinian and Brazilian players are so good because they spend their entire childhood playing in literal wastelands. They're training with gravity 10x like in Dragon Ball, so when they go to Yuroppe's billiards table fields they just destroy.
>brits
>being relevant at football ever since its inception in 435 BC
kek
>>66367500
My team has never played against Messi and likely never will.
>>66367532
Well exactly. There were no billiards table pitches in Europe back then so what you see on your youtube compilations can't be replicated on a quagmire.
>>66365357
>Rio Ferdinand
goddamn truly a next level of britposting
>>66364693
Lev Yashin
Franz Beckenbauer
Gerd Muller
But Cruyff was great too.
>>66367572
britbongs may be delusional but they won a WC and you didn't phamalam
>>66370538
When even Argentina is siding with us, you know you're fucking wrong
Gracias mi hermano blanco
>>66364831
You could say the same for Maradona, who Cruijff said was superior to him
After this point in the thread you can only name players from the future
Dong Zhouhong
>>66364954
This, only deluded manure fags think best was in the elite of football, nobody else considers him at all the same shit happens with Scholes.
>>66364954
Yet its okay when everyone does it for Ronaldinho
I thought Cruyff was more famous for tactics than playing - not the case?
>>66370767
never heard anybody say ronaldinho is greater than cruyff
>>66370776
Not the case, in the 70s he was part of the orange machine which was a ridiculously stacked Dutch generation that could never win a world cup
>>66370817
People act like he's better than everybody
>>66365296
It's just man yoo twats and trolls.
This drunk potato chewer can't carry Cruyff's bag.
Is paul scholes the most overrated player in the history of football, I honestly think he is, ive seen him mentioned twice in this thread along with players like cryuff, maradona, zidane, messi, ronaldo etc. imo he shouldn't be regarded near these players. I say all this as a united fan
>>66364693
if you can't provide a video of this then fuck off tbph
>>66365035
>you spicy freak
BTFO TBQH SENPAI dont even care about soccer but that shit was funnay
>>66371174
He is highly rated by world class players who played against him. He has lived his entire career under the radar though, simply got on with his football. Great role model.
>>66371515
meh, He's only been in two pfa team of the years though in what, 20 years? I'm not saying he wasn't excellent but i'd rate the likes of lampard, viera, keane and gerrard over him
>>66371411
I also laughed at that
>>66370776
Both, he was the GOAT of the 70s and then one of the best coaches in late 80s, early 90s
>>66371559
Want to know how I know that you are clueless about the sport?
>>66367250
Only person who isn't shitposting.
t. people who've never seen either of them play other than youtube highlight clips
Idiots.
>>66378007
I hate this argumrnt, where if you don't think X player is goat you know nothing about football. Explain yourself, what's your point
>>66367096
Barcelona?
>>66371174
Those players all function because of players like Scholes keeping their heads down and putting in the effort in the middle of the pitch.
>>66379780
t. people who didn't experience World War 2 and have just watched documentaries and youtube clips saying that it was pretty bad.
Idiots.
>>66371559
yeah completely agree. scholes is just a fucking meme, it's fashionable to rate him now that he's retired.
he was just an incredible right foot attached to a wee ginger mong.
kolarov has an unbelievable left foot, doesn't make him a competent footballer does it?
>>66365116
>raw talent
if you use this phrase seriously, please get the fuck out.
>>66365357
>Rppney
>RPPNEY
Rashford is GOAT though
>>66367250
this was an enjoyable post.
>>66382143
How long have you been watching football?
If you look at Scholes playing, when he gets the ball the game appears to slow down. He had an uncanny ability to control the flow of a game for the better of his team. If things got too frantic and people couldn't string passes together, Scholes would get the ball and calm things down.
It was fascinating to watch, but I know kids nowadays only like super_fast_wingers_running and_incredible_high_speed.jpg and can't into appreciating players with super genius level football brains.
>>66364807
where are Vardy and Hendo la
>>66382233
Fucking lol. People always say this about Scholes.
No-one is denying that he was a competent midfielder, who could occasionally play an unreal pass or score a screamer, but nothing elevates him.
People talk about him as if he was a world class player, when he was merely a good one.
Doesn't have the consistency or goalscoring ability of Lampard or Gerrard, the mentality or physicality of Vieira or Keane. They were all just as capable of controlling a game of football as Scholes was.
>>66364693
This video should help settle it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB8IW1-vHuw
tfw you realise some people think best was on the same level as cruyff
>>66382276
>Doesn't have the consistency or goalscoring ability of Lampard or Gerrard
By this reasoning, Gerrard and Lampard were better than Pirlo, Zidane, Xavi and Iniesta too then.
It's almost as if there's more to football than taking 10 penalties a season every season for 10 years..
>the mentality or physicality of Vieira or Keane
This is just wrong. Scholes kicked the shit out of opponents and bossed midfields.
>They were all just as capable of controlling a game of football as Scholes was.
Again, this is just wrong. Nobody controlled games and dictated the tempo as well as Scholes.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and literally every single 'point' you tried to mention is patently wrong.
Scholes was a phenomenal English talent, arguably the greatest English player of all time. Gerrard and Lampard were closer to Carrick level of ability than Scholes for fuck sake.
>>66364693
>Best
>not playing 1982 WC
>>66382433
My point wasn't "Lampard and Gerrard were good because they scored goals". It was that could do everything Scholes could and more besides.
It is painfully obvious that you are a completely blinkered United fan, Scholes was the worst player in United's midfield for years, and you are calling him the best English player of all time.
Funny how everyone conveniently forgets the seasons were he didn't perform. comparing gerrard and lampard to carrick is a disgrace, you have embarrassed yourself.
>>66382233
>but I know kids nowadays only like super_fast_wingers_running and_incredible_high_speed.jpg and can't into appreciating players with super genius level football brains
The funny thing is that Scholes was actually nippy as fuck. Similar to Messi in terms of pace. He rarely needed to be that fast because he was so smart on the ball, but when he had to move he could fucking move... He was always getting to balls that you thought were lost causes or 50/50s that were really 70-30s in the opponents favour and Scholes would somehow, not only get there first, but play a great through ball out wide with his touch.
Also,a lot people tend to ignore his dribbling ability and ball control because the Angry Birds generation are so hung up on step-overs and tricks ala Ronaldo, Robben, Zlatan, Pogba, Neymar etc. etc. that the don't appreciate subtle skill and control.
I'll explain:
>Neymar/Ronaldo/Zlatan etc.
Receives the ball from outside. Controls the ball with his foot and stops it dead. He then looks up. Tilts his head up and sees his opponent (who is now blocking his path). Faints to go left, this throws the defender off balance. Drags the ball to the other side. Does a step-over and goes back the other way. This causes the defender to move their foot out to try to trap the ball but our player is too fast and manages to knock the ball past him. Now he accelerates quickly forward and runs further up the pitch. He then looks up to see where his team-mates are and picks out the best pass.
>Scholes
Before he even receives the pass he is aware of where his opponent is, he doesn't touch the ball at all, instead he takes a step forward and then lets the ball roll past him. This fools the opponent and Scholes, without even touching the ball at all, has gone past his man.
This is the sort of thing Scholes used to do at least 20-30 times in a single game. He didn't NEED to try any step-over, trick bullshit. He did things more effectively.
It's a thing of beauty.
>>66382574
>Before he even receives the pass he is aware of where his opponent is, he doesn't touch the ball at all, instead he takes a step forward and then lets the ball roll past him. This fools the opponent and Scholes, without even touching the ball at all, has gone past his man.
this should be known as 'the scholes turn' in the same way we have 'the cruyff turn'
>>66382509
>It was that could do everything Scholes could and more.
Absolutely not. Nowhere near it. I think what you mean is Scholes could do everything Gerrard or Lampard could do but with more style and a lot more.
>>66382509
Carrick was closer to Lampard and Gerrard (as an overall footballer/midfielder) than Lampard and Gerrard were to Scholes.
Hell, even Scott Parker was better than Gerrard and that was supposedly during Gerrard's 'peak' years.
>>66382615
lol, in an entire career at united, Scholes "stepped up" at the big moment precisely once.
True greats don't settle for competence or "good performances", they grab the game by the scruff of the neck and make themselves a hero. Lampard, Gerrard, Toure do this time and time again, and as I said, Scholes could only manage one "moment" in his entire career.
>>66364693
>George Best
>wasn't the best
literally all gerrard has on scholes is more goals, and that's due to him being liverpool's penalty taker for basically his entire career
if scholes had an extra 7-10 per season from penalties he'd BTFO gerrard's goalscoring record
lampard was a better goalscoring midfielder, but that was it. you don't see xavi, messi and iniesta arguing over who gets to take lampard's shirt home after a game, do you? there's a reason for that...
>>66382693
There's a debate to be had with Gerrard, but there is absolutely no doubt that Lampard was a better player than Scholes.
>>66382667
literally no idea what you're talking about
scholes had 2-3 'moments' in nearly every game he played for 20 years, usually it involved creating chances that weren't finished off or the move was let down by other players
>>66382724
Fucking lol. I'm not talking about 40 yard passes against Charlton. I'm talking having a cup final literally named after you, battering your way through the opposition to win the cup, scoring in those games when everything is on the line. I'm talking about the moments that fans will take with them to the grave.
Scholes was pathetic in the face of these moments, and did nothing, letting his teammates take the burden.
>>66382667
You sound like a right spastic tbqh.
The sort of working class fan that goes to the pub every day after work to chat shit to fellow retards about darts and downs 2-3 pints while thinking nothing of it.
You genuinely don't understand that what Scholes does in an average game in terms of technique, vision, overall impact, influence and control is something Gerrard requires 5-6 games to achieve.
You probably think that Olympiakos goal somehow makes Gerrard a better footballer because it was an important "moment" and you think that makes it more special or something. I bet the "moment" you are referring to with Scholes was his goal against Barcelona when really that was one of his poorer games.
You're an idiot.
>>66382710
0/10
Darren Fletcher was better than Lampard. At least argue in your own weight category m8.
>>66382773
Uh.. United were good enough not to rely on "moments" like this you mong. Scholes was so good that his team usually won comfortably anyway because Scholes controlled and dominated the game in the first place.
>>66382809
Well. You are a bit of a retard aren't you.
United fan but uses "working class" as a pejorative, you are probably from Welwyn Garden City and have never been to a game.
Also you are wrong, anyone can see that Scholes could control a game effortlessly. You are incredibly stupid for thinking he is somehow unique in that just because he happened to do it for the team you watched.
Of course you can guess the moment I'm talking about because it was his only one in his whole career.
>>66382828
So? We are talking about whether or not a player is world class or not. United also lost plenty of games down the years, lost finals, threw away league titles. Imagine how many more trophies they could have won if Scholes had even half of the big moments that Gerrard has.
This is the thing about Scholes, as you say he was "good enough" for a brilliant side, but little more. He kept them ticking along, played a couple of good passes here and there, occasionally scored a screamer. That doesn't qualify you to great status. The greatest players are remembered for moments, not for overall performances.
>>66365544
>miserable scot thinks his opinion matters
>>66382773
>>66382667
>>66382509
>>66382276
not sure if you're trolling or genuinely retarded
scholes/zidane >> xavi > iniesta > laudrup > keane/vieira >>>>>>>pirlo > schweinsteiger >>>>>> pogba/toure/busquets/alonso > gerrard/carrick > fletcher > lampard > parker
19 year old anderson (the fat brazil kid) absolutely dominated and controlled gerrard at anfield in 2007 and 08
is this one of the big "moments" you were talking about? getting bossed by a fat kid in the biggest game of the season in your own back yard?
kek
>>66382928
Always like to give the disabled some of my time every now and then.
That list is legitimately the worst thing I've ever seen. You have no understanding of football whatsoever. I would recommend curling or perhaps bowls.
>>66382893
>We are talking about whether or not a player is world class or not.
Eh.. no we're not. Scholes was objectively world class and arguably THE BEST world class player out of all the world class players to ever play in his position.
>if Scholes had even half of the big moments that Gerrard has.
Scholes had more big moments in one year than Gerrard has had in his entire career.
>The greatest players are remembered for moments, not for overall performances.
Let me translate that for the rest of /sp/
"I have a short attention span and struggle to follow games properly. I'm not interested in the nuances of the game and the smaller details, instead all that matters to me is "big moments" such as 40 yard blooters in cup finals and stuff like that. As I cannot remember Scholes doing this many times, I don't think he was as good as a player I remember doing it on quite a few occasions"
>>66382928
I remember this game well.
Anderson wasn't the only one to do it. Apart from the obvious (Scholes, Keane, Fletcher) I also remember John O'Shea playing CM and bullying Gerrard.
In fact, I think Gerrard had one good game against United in his entire career and that was at Old Trafford when Vidic was sent off for fouling Torres.
>>66382996
he wasn't even good in that one
he just took a penalty (surprise surprise) and the media made the whole game story about him and him kissing the camera
>>66382893
>The greatest players are remembered for moments, not for overall performances
Are you actually serious? The YouTube generation, everyone.
>>66382976
Lol, United fans struggling to remember the details of this "great player's" career.
The man did nothing for his country, literally nothing. But I suppose we are supposed to ignore that with Scholes because... he played for United therefore was the best ever?
Scholes was not consistent at all, he regularly had spells and even seasons of really poor form. This is ignored by reds for some reason.
In the nineties, United's greatest period, he was the fourth best player in their midfield. In the early 2000s, probably Scholes best period (even accounting for his non existent 01/02 campaign) United were awful. United's successful spell in the late 2000s had little to do with Scholes as his appearances and influence dwindled.
Comparing him to the greats is absolutely scandalous, it's a reputation based built entirely on his mates talking shite in the media post retirement.
>>66365357
>Rashford
I can't wait for this meme to end
>>66383076
>Scholes was not consistent at all, he regularly had spells and even seasons of really poor form. This is ignored by reds for some reason.
Probably because Scholes at his worst was still better than Gerrard or Lampard in their peak.
>>66383060
You are an idiot desu. If I mention Maradona the first thing you think of is his World cup in 1986. You don't go "oh yeah he was really good in against Lazio in 1991". The big moments define players. You step up or you crumble, there's a reason some players have incredible records in finals and some don't.
>>66383076
>Comparing him to the greats is absolutely scandalous, it's a reputation based built entirely on his mates talking shite in the media post retirement.
so why don't these same 'mates' (including messi, xavi, iniesta, pep guardiola, mourinho, pirlo, zidane and many other players who have never been in the same team as him) say the same sort of things about beckham, giggs, gary neville, wes brown, nicky butt?
is it just scholes has such an appealing personality?
or maybe, just maybe, you're the one talking shit
>>66383099
hahahaha
Lampard was at his peak for about 10 years, his performances never dipped, and yes, he was better than Scholes. Scholes had the odd good season and a bunch of retarted amnesiac fanboys defending him on the internet.
>>66365357
Scores against a bunch of sewer workers and he's considered englands future goat.
>Brit delusion
>Wew lad.
>>66383118
yes but the reason maradona was great and loved by everyone is that he was also good week in week out
if all maradona did was 86, nobody would even know who he was
if maradona never did 86, people would feel the exact same way about him
>>66383131
Imagine actually thinking these players opinions count for shit. Football players largely know fuck all about football. Loom at some of the "all time xis" they do.
Messi, iniesta etc comment on Scholes because they are asked about Scholes by weird mouth-breathing obsessive British journalists. What do you think they are going to say? "never really rated him actually"? Obviously they are just going to give a diplomatic answer and move on, as they do with every single question levelled at them by the media.
>>66382893
>The greatest players are remembered for moments, not for overall performances.
This has to be bait.
Blümchen?
>>66383183
>Imagine actually thinking these players opinions count for shit. Football players largely know fuck all about football
And you think that YOUR opinion counts for shit? Or that YOU do know about football?
LAUGHING MY FUCKING ASS OFF!!!!!!
HOLY SHIT MY SIDES!!
You actually think you know better than them, don't you?
When Pep Guardiola is asked about Cristiano Ronaldo ahead of the 2009 CL final and he says "Scholes is the player I am more worried about" it says it all.
>>66383165
That's bullshit, 86 is the single greatest set of performances in the history of the competition, his name would have rung out around the world no matter what.
And it's still largely the reason why he is remembered. Most people outside of italy and argentina probably never watched him play a single game at club level.
>>66383118
That was a tournament, not a 'moment'.
>>66383212
Mate, most players don't watch football. They play it every day and make millions a year, why the fuck would they?
>>66383245
And he produced "moments" throughout that tournament that are incredibly memorable.
>>66383229
>86 is the single greatest set of performances in the history of the competition
And? Who gives a fuck? It's one tournament in a summer when many players are exhausted from the season that has just ended.
>>66383229
Yes, and it would be forgotten about 2-6 months later. Not created a legacy that lasts 30 years +
>And it's still largely the reason why he is remembered
No, it's not.
He was the best player in the world before 86. Messi has never done anything in the world cup, but I'm sure you'll remember him in 30 years too. Probably Ronaldo and Scholes too. Exact same thing applies to Maradona.
Paul Scholes is literally taught to the Barcelona youth academy at La Masia. They don't teach Xavi or Iniesta or Zidane. They teach Paul Scholes.
That says it all. This is the greatest coaching/training/education in modern football we're talking about. Where Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta and Messi learned their trade.
Scholes is THEIR God and THEIR idol. Think that's a little more concrete than one-off press quotes, don't you?
>>66383284
Imagine thinking that the opinions of the mainstream are influenced by overall performances. Most people think the largely average Gerrard was world class because he scored in finals. Some people actually think Pele was a good player purely because he looked good at the world cup. No-one other than fans of individual clubs gives a shit how a player plays over the majority of the season, only finals, "big games" and international tournaments influence the common consensus about players.
>>66383313
HAHAHAHAH
Barcelona players making a few remarks about Scholes in press conferences = he is their god and they worship him.
Hate to spoil your fantasy, but no they don't.
Also the way you write about football gives away that you know very little about it - "Paul Scholes is literally taught"
kek, you don't "teach" a player
>>66383313
>believing this bullshit
top keks mate
>none of the Englel players discussed about could perform for their countries
All shit.
>>66383357
>>66383361
Lionel Messi: “At La Masia, his name was mentioned a lot. He’s a teacher here. We are instructed to observe him and what he does in a game."
Andres Iniesta "Paul Scholes is a Living Legend I cannot speak highly enough of him. I get such joy from watching him play. It is he who I try to base my game on. I have learned a lot from watching him play."
Xavi: “In the last 15 to 20 years the best central midfielder that I have seen — the most complete — is Scholes. He is a role model for me"
Pep Guardiola: "Scholes – he is the best midfielder of this generation. I would have loved to have played alongside him. If a young player asked me for advise I would tell him to watch Scholes."
Cesc Fabregas: “Scholes is the one whose level I aspire to. He is undoubtedly the best player in the Premier League.”
>The city of (You)
It's not a coincidence that these players just happen to talk about Scholes. Why don't they talk about Giggs if they were just being 'polite'?
They have singled Scholes out because they literally try to copy him. He is the bench-mark for brilliance.
>>66383660
Nobody cares about International football. I don't even watch it personally.
Maybe the WC semi-final and finals, but that's it. And I don't even watch that because I'm interested in it or excited by it, it's more because it's a huge world event and it'd be dumb to miss it, especially when it's football-related.
And I'm not even English. My dad is German and I was born in Germany. My mum is English and we moved here when I was 3 years old so I feel a strong connection to Germany, stronger than that of England. I have a German passport. So don't give me your "HAHAHA THAT'S JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE ENGLISH AND ENGLAND SUCK, IF ENGLAND WERE GOOD YOU'D THINK DIFFERENTLY" bollocks that gets spouted here.
>>66383998
This. The World Cup is only that big because suddenly every casual fan in the world gets overwhelmed with muh national pride.
It's literally football for women and children
>>66384025
I have no problem with people who like Internationals and think the WC or Euros are important, that's their opinion. It's up to them what they enjoy.
It's when they say dumb things like X player was never good because he didn't win anything for his country.
How the FUCK are players like Ryan Giggs supposed to win anything with Wales? Or George Best win anything with Northern Ireland? His teammates were literally full-time plumbers back then. Literally.
It's fucking stupid. And I see it all the time in Messi/Ronaldo arguments too.
You judge a player not on one game, or on 8 games during the summer, but instead on his CONSISTENCY. Anyone can have a 2-3 month patch of brilliance. Anyone. Even I could win the world cup single-handed given the right amount of luck and circumstance.
It means absolutely fuck all.
Even judging a player on a year long season is pushing it. I'd say you need at least 3-4 years at the highest level to be in with a shout. i.e. to prove it wasn't a fluke.
Fat Ronaldo and Zidane are the two most overrated footballers by far because of this obsession with the World Cup. Not saying they weren't world class, but the legacy these two have based on what is essentially a summer tournament in the off-season is laughable.
>>66384025
>being proud of where you were assigned to be born by chance
should be considered a mental illness tbqh
>>66384106
I don't expect Giggs or Best to win anything with their NT. I'd at least have expected them to be able to qualify for the WC.
Funny thing is NI qualified in 1982 without Best.
>>66383962
>messi: instructed to observe him
>you: Paul Scholes is literally taught to the Barcelona youth academy at La Masia. They don't teach Xavi or Iniesta or Zidane. They teach Paul Scholes. Scholes is THEIR God and THEIR idol.
And the only source for this is a united fan page (red flag flying high) and dailyfail lel
You are such a dumb retarded faggot
Okay you idiots I hate the EPLEL but your arguments against Scholes is pure shit. La Masia and Barca loves him, Zidane loves him, basically the best midfielders rate him and you guys think you know more than them. Seriously?
>>66384170
>I'd at least have expected them to be able to qualify for the WC.
The fuck.. why would you? That's ridiculous.
One player does not make a team, no matter how much Messi/Iniesta memers think that Barcelona's success was down to one or two players.
It takes 11 equally committed and determined footballers with exceptional ability.
Have you also considered that maybe Best didn't give a fuck about Northern Ireland and didn't try at all? That's a possibility.
>>66384330
One quote doesn't mean they love him. Guardiola is prone to ridiculous grandiose statements, despite his genius.
>>66384354
>It takes 11 equally committed and determined footballers with exceptional ability.
And a brilliant manager who knows how to get the most out of said player and the rest of the squad, a top class coaching staff, a great goalkeeping coach. etc.
It's a squad game. The likes of Ferguson and Pep wouldn't have won anything if it wasn't for players like Pedro, Fletcher, Puyol, Wes Brown etc stepping in to supplement the likes of Messi and Ronaldo.
>>66384330
If anyone could be arsed to collate a Purgatory-tier autism list of quotes for Lampard or Gerrard then they could do.
No one is pretending like Scholes wasn't very good, but he was never at some otherworldly level like Man U fans would have you believe. He was a good player in a good team. He was shite for England. He was never the best midfielder in the world and probably wasn't ever the best midfielder in the Prem.
>>66383660
Successive England managers bought into the Gerrard/Lampard hype machine and played Scholes out of position.
All these people saying Scholes is only considered a great because of the media yet spout Stevey-G and Frankie as being better are delusional hypocrites.
>>66384404
its the other way round mate
>>66364807
>Suarez
>Not Neymar
Anata wa baka desu
>>66384372
So let's see
Messi, Iniesta, Xavi and Pep all say basically the exact same thing in separate years in separate interviews and you still think they are just talking nonsense?
It's not a coincidence. That's the core of that 2009-2012 GOAT team right there. Also includes 3 CMs who know exactly what it takes to be a midfielder and arguably the greatest footballer of all time.
>>66384426
What is?
>>66384424
Please actually try and recall events as they happened. Gerrard and Lampard were picked on merit, they were consistent for their clubs so they were picked for England.
Scholes was basically the opposite, going through spells of form when he deserved to nowhere near the team, and when he did play, he was never anything more than average.
>>66384419
He's the best player of all time family. Get over it.
Sure, he doesn't hit the headlines for scoring goals like Messi, Pele or Maradona but his role is more important than what they do. He contributes more to the team and had more talent than all of them.
Stay assblasted. Or don't and just appreciate the fact you were alive at the same time as the GOAT.
>>66384424
>Successive England managers bought into the Gerrard/Lampard hype machine and played Scholes out of position.
Stop this fucking meme, the only time Scholes was played out of position was Euro 2004. He played in the centre at World Cup 98, Euro 00 and World Cup 02 and he wasn't very good.
Still a great player but this >le scholes was wasted for england meme has to die
>>66384442
You speak like players like brown and pedro are special or something. They are not, they are players who have absolutely no talent who are whipped into shape by terrifying managers. The important thing is to have at least one world class gamechanger and a competent manager who can get the rest of the shite to perform.
It is true, the world over, people have no clue about Messi and Iniesta, but the sheer mention of brit meme supreme paul scholesy scholes opens taxi doors the world over.
He might in fact be the best player ever.
>>66384449
>Scholes was basically the opposite, going through spells of form when he deserved to nowhere near the team, and when he did play, he was never anything more than average.
Lampard and Gerrard have never in their careers been better than Scholes.
Sorry but you're fucking delusional and you're the one re-writing history.
Gerrard and Lampard weren't even the best CMs at their clubs for fuck sake.
Alonso shat on Gerrard from a great distance.
Mascherano was Liverpool's second best CM of the past 16 years.
Gerrard was fighting it out with the likes of Lucas for 3rd place.
Makelele was vastly superior to Lampard.
Essien too, miles ahead in terms of ability, shame about his injury issue because he was an absolute beast.
Matic last season was better than any season Lampard has ever had although obviously Lampard was more consistent throughout his career.
You should be arguing about that. Not fucking PAUL SCHOLES. Jesus Christ..
Lampard are Gerrard are more comprable to Carrick or Fletcher than Scholes and that's not a slight on either of Gerrard or Lampard, it's just the reality of the situation.
In my opinion it's
Scholes >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gerrard > Fletcher > Carrick = Lampard
But that's based on peak 2-3 years.
In terms of consistency over their career I'd go with
Scholes >>>>>>>>>>>> Lampard >>> Carrick > Gerrard > Fletcher
>mfw"Cruyff" doesn't even have his own hit record
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XemxPtm70wM
Best pisses all over him
>>66384482
>You speak like players like brown and pedro are special or something.
No, I'm not saying that at all. That's the opposite of what I'm saying.
I'm saying that the likes of Pedro or Wes Brown were crucial for these clubs to be successful. The consistent, reliable, hard-workers who put in 8/10 performances every week. That's what wins titles.
You can't just throw a Messi or a Ronaldo into a group of farmers and win trophies, but that's what /sp/ seems to think.
>who have absolutely no talent
And this is delusional as well. No talent compared to Messi maybe. But these are players in the 90th percentile or higher of professional footballers in terms of ability.
It also doesn't make them any lesser players. You'd have to be a special type of retard to want someone like Robinho over Brown or Pedro. Or Quaresma over Fletcher and Mascherano.
>>66384536
Not even any point arguing with a delusional like yourself. You are blinded by your support of Manchester United. I can recognise the way you think because I thought that way for many years. Whenever I watched my team I would pick up on all the players positive points and knew all of their subtle qualities.
Whenever I watched the opposition, they were the "antagonist", I was willing for them to fuck up, and when they did something good, it could be explained away as "luck" or something,
This is the sort of deviant thinking that leads people to think that Darren Fletcher is better than Frank Lampard.
One day, you might correct your awful way of watching football and obtain a degree of objectivity, but until then, you should stop discussing the sport on non-United boards.
>>66365357
>Sterling
'no'
>>66384482
disagree with this
a team of 11 players who are all 8/10 will comfortably destroy (i mean absolutely batter beyond all doubt) a team of ten 6/10s with one 10/10 regardless of managerial ability
The best the latter can hope for is Chelsea park the bus and hope for the best type tactic. Maybe nick a goal on the break by getting the ball to the 10/10
But the percentages are not with them at all
>>66384591
but my point is that brown, pedro etc are just a bunch of farmers. It's no coincidence that they can look competent under world class managers and then their careers go to shit after they leave. If Bests Northern Ireland had had a decent manager, they would have achieved a lot more than they did, becuse they would be able to elevate the trash that was the rest of the team.
>>66384672
>but my point is that brown, pedro etc are just a bunch of farmers
Okay then, that's why I'm not going to be taking this discussion any further. You're clearly retarded.
Neither of these players 'went to shit' after leaving. They left world class squads (that bossed every game and retained 60-80% possession) where they were among the weakest members and joined far lesser clubs. Obviously they're not going to look as good as they were. They were also past their peak years because obviously the club that sold them sold them.
Peak Pedro and peak Wes Brown would look like monsters for the likes of Newcastle. They'd be so good that they'd be signed up for the likes of Barcelona or United.
Look at Ashley Young. Perfect example.
>>66384672
>If Bests Northern Ireland had had a decent manager, they would have achieved a lot more than they did, becuse they would be able to elevate the trash that was the rest of the team.
Thanks for the most obvious statement ever.
What next? If Manchester United had better manager they'd play better?
If Stoke had better players they'd win more games?
Water is wet?
Grass is green?
>>66384737
How is Ashley Young a perfect example? He was a very good player who joined United after he peaked and the club were too big for him.
Obviously I was exaggerating when I said they were farmers. My point is is that they are average players talent wise, just like Norn Irons players, who were elevated by coaching.
>>66384658
A team of 6/10s is literally about to win the league
>>66384536
Reminder fergie broke the transfer record to buy veron so he could bench scholes
>>66384767
I think the end of that sentence was the important part, managers are there to allow natural talent to flourish and force shitcunts to put in a shift for the team. Even the worst squads on paper can achieve a lot if they have the right manager (a Simeone or Mourinho figure) and some degree of natural talent.
>>66384814
Yep, then later on signed hargreaves and carrick so that he could phase out Scholes. United fans need to understand that Scholes was nothing more than a very good player.
>>66384790
Young is a perfect example of a player who is a squad player at best for United (and some don't even want him as that) but at another club he was their main man, banging in the goals and the club's poster boy.
Hardly a farmer. And hardly 'average' either. He's clearly a great player who just isn't quite on that C. Ronaldo/Rooney/Messi/Robben/Bale tier of elite footballers.
But players like him (And Brown, Pedro, Bojan, Fletcher, Obi Mikel, Welbeck etc. etc.) are the backbone of great teams like Barcelona or United.
>>66364807
>Scholes
Meme is getting old
>>66384858
wew
>>66384814
Reminder that Roy Keane was 30 years old when Veron was signed.
>>66384843
Reminder that Scholes was 32 when Hargreaves was signed.
It's called planning for the future you utter mongs. Ironically enough Scholes outlasted Hargreaves.
Cruyff, Pele, Maradonna.
The order is up for debate the top 3 is not.
>>66384858
But the point is that Young's ability went to waste at United. His role is so limited that it could be filled by a youth player. He has the talent to be a main man, but all he has to do is track back, keep the ball, warm the bench. Ferguson could motivate anyone to do that, and did so throughout his career. Buying players like Young is unnecessary.
>>66384843
>>66384814
This is like saying Barcelona signed Fabregas or Rakitic to replace Iniesta.
i.e. it's not true
>>66384876
>veron and Keane were comparable positionally
wew
>>66384876
Yes because Hargreaves is made out of rice paper.
>>66384888
WHAT!?
Young's 'role' is the exact same role of Giggs. Left wing. Up and down the left flank, taking players on, crossing into the box, cutting inside and scoring goals.
The intention was that he was supposed to replace Giggs.
>>66384895
They literally signed them as Xavi replacements though
>>66384895
because they signed them to replace xavi? lol, not sure what your point is here.
and obviously fabregas was not an adequate replacement for xavi because he is a talentless rat.
>>66384898
CM
Literally the exact same position.
You don't have to replace like-for-like all the time. In fact, there's nobody really comparable to Keane in the past 10 years other than Bastian.
>>66384919
Young wasn't signed in the nineties mate, Giggs was nothing more than a workhorse for the last 10+ years if his career.
>>66384895
Fabregas was bought to replace Xavi
The main difference between that and veron/scholes though was the Xavi was 31 at the time and scholes was 26
>>66384920
>>66384925
No, they didn't.
And nobody knows why they were signed.
Just like nobody knows what plans Ferguson had for Veron or Hargreaves.
You're talking out of your arse.
>>66384933
What the fuck is this? Schweinsteiger is a fucking trash player, vieira is the player that you can compare to Keane.
>>66384933
Laughable argument
>>66384933
You're literally retarded
>>66384935
>Giggs was nothing more than a workhorse for the last 10+ years if his career.
'no'
>>66384940
No he fucking wasn't you spastic. Don't act like you know Barcelona's plans. Veron was more likely to replace Keane who was 30 (if anything) than Scholes who was in his peak.
>>66382854
>tfw someone mentions your home town
>>66384949
>nobody knows why they were signed
fucking kek, Barcelona's transfers aren't handled by the secret police mate
>>66384950
Yeah, United are totally going to replace 34 year old Keane in 2005 with a player who is older than him.
>>66384956
>>66384960
You're laughable and retarded. You speculate with no evidence and pass it on as fact.
Ferguson signed Valencia to replace Cristiano Ronaldo. Are they similar? Are they fuck. He replaced him and it worked perfectly.
>>66384972
hahah I just used it as the standard middle english shithole town where United fans live. Hope I was accurate in that assumption.
>>66384977
Source me the official clubs statement where an official Barcelona representative explicitly states "We have signed Fabregas because we want to replace Xavi"
If you can't do that, fuck off because you have no proof.
>>66384985
I said that he was comparable in style, not that United would sign him.
Also Veron was signed to replace Scholes. At the time Scholes was widely regarded as the weak link in United's famous 4 man midfield, and Veron was similar stylistically to Scholes.
>>66384963
I refuse to believe you watches veron in the 90s and Keane if you honestly believe that frrgie bought him to replace Keane they were completely different players
>>66384986
>this retard has literally been posting ITT all day
ABUs everyone.
>>66385011
>Source me the official clubs statement where an official Barcelona representative explicitly states "We have signed Fabregas because we want to replace Xavi"
Do this for me as well with Scholes and United, I'll wait.
I'll apologise if you can find me a direct quote from a reputable source.
>>66385039
>ywn be this triggered
kek scholes fags on suicide watch
>>66385000
So everything outside of official club statements is false then? I guess we can never hope to learn anything about the game of football.
>>66385011
Veron was not bought to replace Scholes you fucking mong.
Ferguson said in his book it was because they had won the European cup and he wanted to strengthen from a position of power so he went all out to get what he considered to be the best players in the world at the time. No mention of Scholes but he did mention how pissed off he was getting with Keane post 1999 and indicated he was looking at replacements.
tl;dr you're wrong, if anything Veron was to replace Keane
>A 4 man midfield of giggs scholes veron beckham
If you think fergie would actually think that's a good idea kill yourself
>>66385058
Not really, clubs regularly make statements and managers often talk about these things.
"We wanted to sign Bale" - Moyes
"We had agreed to sign Kroos before I was sacked" - Moyes
Or you could use your common sense to work out that Veron was more likely to replace an ageing Keane (31 years old) as opposed to arguably the greatest footballer of all time at the tender age of 26 years.
Retard....
>>66385026
Better that than being a United fan. Enjoy Ryan Giggs being the manager of your club mate.
>>66385072
That literally happened though.
And United won fuck all for 3-4 years and had to endure Kleberson, Liam Miller etc. afterwards.
Reminder that Scholes and Pirlo are the patricians choice for GOATs.
Great artists are never understood in their time. It takes years for simple minds to understand their genius.
>>66385080
>Not denying it and making up some story about how you're bored at work
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HOLY SHIT BTFO
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
ABUS ON SUICIDE WATCH
>>66385074
Might not have occurred to you but he was signed to replace Scholes because Scholes actually wasn't that good.
>>66385087
Agreed m8.
It's the same with defenders
Retards will pick Puyol, Carragher and John Terry. (No talent, no clue, no positional sense just get in the way of the ball)
Patricians will pick Ferdinand, Maldini and Baresi (elite tacticians who rarely even need to make a tackle because of their superior vision and understanding of the game)
>>66385087
or the full 2 seconds it takes when you see Pirlo give a pass that no one else woud give
>>66385090
Yeah mate, really terrified of the club signing midtable players for 20 million and appointing some random sheep shagger as their manager.
>>66385091
Well no, it didn't actually m8 because unlike you I wasn't 4-7 years old at the time and I actually watched the games and could see Scholes was our best player (as Fergie said himself back in 2001).
So no, there was no danger of that thought crossing my mind.
>>66365357
>>66385123
Lmao, Keane and beckham shat all over Scholes.
Remind me of Scholes contributions to United's European campaigns of the late 90s and early 2000s?
>>66385113
I didn't say you were terrified.
But you chose to bring up your level of fear voluntarily... interesting..
I think we both know Mourinho is confirmed.
>>66385168
I remember a lot of needless yellow cards but that's cheeky wee Paul for you the scamp lol he doesn't mean to leave his foot in he just doesn't know how to tackle
>>66385168
>Beckham was better than Scholes
It's time for you to stop posting.
In fact, the time for you to stop posting was way back when you suggested Gerrard or Lampard might be comparable to Scholes.
>>66385186
lmao xDDDDD
>>66385172
>tfw united fans think they are a force
>tfw they think that other fanbases feel anything other than pity for them
wew
We've seen this all before, first liverpool then Arsenal, it will be a few years before it is apparent to you.
If all of these English midfielders are so great, how come they didn't win a world cup or euro?
Checkmate, bongistanis.
