In December 2001, the Broncos were fined $968,000 and lost a third-round pick in the 2002 draft for violations reportedly relating to $29 million in deferred payments to quarterback John Elway and running back Terrell Davis.
Why wasn't this a big deal? They cheated the salary cap in order to keep Elway and Davis, their best 2 players easily. I don't get how this story gets ignored, its one of the biggest cheating scandals in sports history.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28969-2004Sep17.html
It's no spygate or deflategate. Very minor in comparison to the cheatriots.
because le asterisk maymay only applies to good franchises apparently
>>64008197
>pointing a camera at a sideline in front of thousands of people is the same as embezzling money to keep hall of fame players
Cheating is ALWAYS going to be worth it as long as the NFL doesn't void Super Bowls.
The Broncos won back to back Owls violating the salary cap. The Patriots were a dynasty stealing other teams' signals. The Saints won their first championship in their entire existence from Bountygate. All three teams suffered punishments, but they STILL won it all, and the NFL has never said they didn't, so in the end it was all worth it.
>>64008197
>>64008224
No it's worse. Broncos changed a couple numbers. Patriots spied on opponents and stole their playbooks.
<Harold Henderson, the chairman of the Management Council and the NFL's executive vice president of labor relations, confirmed in a written statement released by the league that "the individuals responsible for the violations are no longer with the team" and that the Broncos "have been cooperative throughout the investigation." Henderson did not directly address the issue of whether the club gained a competitive advantage but said the Broncos circumvented the cap to help pay for costs related to the construction of Invesco Field at Mile High.
>>64008225
I feel like people dont count bounty gate enough. When I heard some of the shit they were telling the players to do and I was horrified. Its worse than the Pats or Broncos because it wasnt about cap space or illegal film, it was intentionally hurting players for a bigger pay check. The dirtiest thing you could do T B H
>>64008225
>stealing other teams' signals
not illegal and what they got busted for was filming in the wrong spot where the years before that it was legal to do so from that location
>>64008329
stealing playbooks was a conspiracy meme
only thing that was ever proven in spygate was that the patriots were pointing cameras at the jets sideline in a regular season game in 07. it's actually legal to film the sidelines of the opposing team, so they weren't actually "stealing" anything. you have to be a certain amount of feet away though,and the patriots were not, so got punished.
also, the broncos didn't just "change numbers." they illegally paid two all-stars under the table that would've left otherwise because the broncos wouldn't have been able to afford them
dirty as fuck
>>64008225
This is so true. Losing draft picks and paying a fine is worth winning a Superbowl or two.
>it's been 8 years
>soon to be 9 years
>Pats fans still don't understand why everyone calls them cheaters
>>64008142
Because nobody feels bad for heroes getting paid and circumventing a corrupt and bullshit salary cap
>>64009324
id argue that even those who call them cheaters dont know why they do it. i mean some idiots actually list the tuck rule as them cheating
Actually it was a big deal them, but we didn't have thousands of NFL tv shows on at all times of day back then.
>>64008414
THANK YOU!
>>64008142
Because they paid off people to keep shut
It was a big fuck you mostly to the raiders who were cheated out of back to back afc playoff years possibly afcc and we all know how much of a hard on the league has on fucking the raiders over
There was no social media at that time, the internet was still a baby
I can't believe ball pressure that can't even be proven was taken 100000X more seriously.
oh well im sure the next scandal will be even worse
That was one incident. The Patriots are habitual cheaters
>>64008329
Ever hear of corporate accounting scandals? That sort of thing puts people in prison outside of major sports.
>>64008470
>only thing that was ever proven in spygate
No one knows what was proven because it was an internal NFL investigation and Goodell had everything destroyed
Thats the only reason it's still talked abiut because people can only guess what was documented
>>64008142
the salary cap is so stupid anyway. it's fucking commie tier bullshit. if a team has the money, let them blow it on one player, or however they want to spend it.
>>64013838
Jest fan detected
>a week later
>Patsfags still upset
it was funny at first, but now it's just sad.
>Having a salary cap in the first place
>>64008142
Wow, what bullshit. Dallas had to break up their team because of the salary cap. They should have just cheated like this since their barely get punished and nobody would talk about it ever.
>>64009351
Without the salary cap we'd have five teams dominating with dark horses winning sometimes and then all the stars would ditch.
>>64014271
Then poorer teams need to get more creative with how they build their teams and spend their money.
>>64014356
Or fuck that and let's have a salary cap.
>>64014031
Fuck you.
-Brewersfag
>>64014271
or someone would buy out the shit tier team and spend more money on talent.
>>64014390
The Brewers suck because they're run by retards.
>>64014382
Salary caps are useful for leagues like the MLS to prevent teams from overspending themselves into bankruptcy. Beyond that they're just tools to prevent paying players what they're actually worth.
>>64013307
That one incident was worse than those two scandals combined, fäm.
>>64008224
>misusing the word "embezzling" so egregiously
Your team should lose a pick for that desu.
>>64008414
Goodell pls. Your player suspensions got overturned by a judge because you got caught making this shit up.
Has Brady cheated yet today? Anyone know?
>>64014526
I know it's used by owners to prevent MLB sized contracts but it still helps with parity.
Price just got paid $215,000,000 by Boston.
Could you imagine what an elite QB would get paid? A Billion over 10 years?
>>64014620
I doubt NFL teams could spend like some MLB teams. NFL media contracts are made with the league office so all of it is split evenly between the teams. MLB media contracts are made by the individual teams so they get most, if not all, of that money.
>>64014526
>>64014526
>implying they don't also enforce parity
>>64014716
>owners would never overspend to win every year.
>>64014809
The NFL has had thirteen different teams win the Super Bowl since the Salary Cap was implemented. Thirteen different teams have also won the World Series despite the MLB having no salary cap.
>Enforcing parity
>>64014828
That would less of a gamble in the NFL because the contracts are completely team friendly on top of underpaying their players due to the salary cap. It makes no real sense as to why athletes would focus on football when they could be paid better and more securely in other sports.
David Price just got a $217,000,000 over 7 years contract by the Red Sox.
This is possible because there's no salary cap in the MLB.
Now what if the NFL didn't have a salary cap?
David Price will pitch every 5 games over a 162 game season. A starting QB will start every game over a 16 game season. And theres only 10-15 guys in the NFL that can actually play QB at a high level to win.
So, if there wasn't a hard cap in the NFL and there's only maybe 10 guys in the league that could excel the supply and demand would set their contracts in the high 100s of millions to even over a Billion over 10 years.
>>64015006
It's a different sport. Baseball has five starting pitchers plus a closer and a bullpen.
The NFL has like 10 guys that can excel at QB.
If there's literally only 10 guys that could work a job and multiple companies want those guys wouldn't that job be high paying? Like extremely high paying?
>>64015116
>Implying QBs aren't already getting overpaid
>>64015234
Supply and demand
>>64013594
Eggxactly. Because the public was never able to see the evidence, they're left to their own devices, coming up with ideas that might be worse than what really happened. That said, it's kind of hard to believe Goodell would have gone to such great lengths to bury the evidence forever it was something as trivial as filming from the wrong location. Sure feels like it was trying to cover up something for the integrity of the league.
>>64015263
Players like Dalton are getting paid almost as much as Rodgers despite a clear gulf in talent between the two. Teams are desperate because they don't want to risk downgrading from even their game manager QBs but due to the salary cap they can only pay the actually worthwhile QBs so much before it breaks their cap situation. The system is clearly a broken one when actually elite players are getting paid the same as middling ones.
>>64015407
Yeah, because Starting NFL QBs are so crazy valuable. Much more than a pitching ace in MLB.
>>64009324
What did the Pats do wrong?
>>64015477
>Having this little reading comprehension
>>64015006
The MLB has been around for a lot longer than the NFL, yet virtually the same % of teams in each league have won championships (NFL has more if you count pre-Super Bowl).
Before the NFL cap, 12 different teams won an owl through 28 years. Since the cap, 13 different teams have won one in 21 years, including 7 new teams, most of whom were small market teams who had trouble competing prior to the cap.
From 1984-1995 (soft cap introduced in 94) the owl rotated among 5 large market teams (who were consistently the most profitable and biggest spending teams) in the same conference, all but one of whom won it multiple times.
And look at the Packers, the quintessential small market team. Between the time Vince Lombardi left to the introduction of the salary cap (26 years), they had only 7 winning seasons and 3 playoff appearances. Since the cap was put in place they've been once of the most successful teams in the League.
To say that the salary cap doesn't enforce parity is as ridiculous and, frankly, deceitful as arguing that the world is 10k years old.
>>64015478
They invited time travel by breaking a rule created in 2006 when they won the Super Bowl in 2001, 2003, and 2004.
>>64015531
Dalton deserves that much money though, possibly more when other teams are trying to buy in the off season. Rodgers is worth many more times than dalton.
>>64015581
Invented*
>>64008142
they did this to help pay for their new stadium not competitive advantage on the field
>pats fans can't understand this
>>64015608
Cheating is cheating retard
>>64015407
>but due to the salary cap they can only pay the actually worthwhile QBs so much before it breaks their cap situation.
Congratulations, you just made his point.
>>64015580
There are other ways for small market teams to compete than knee capping the ones at the top. It's not like sabermetrics and moneyball became a thing in baseball for no reason.
>>64015701
His point doesn't even understand what supply and demand is. Supply and demand would imply players like Rodgers being paid significantly more than players like Dalton since the quality of his play is significantly higher. Instead because of what is basically heavy handed market regulation they get paid essentially the same because they play the same position. It inflates the worth of middling talent while significantly deflating the worth of elite talent.
>>64015710
>Oakland paid nothing to their no-name roster
I want you to look at the Oakland rosters and their salaries
>>64015710
>There are other ways for small market teams to compete than knee capping the ones at the top.
Yeah, find a bunch of great players that no one knows about and coach them to a championship in the 15 minutes you have before someone outbids you for them.
>It's not like sabermetrics and moneyball became a thing in baseball for no reason.
Jimmys and Joes, not Xs and Os. Moneyball has never produced a championship for a small market team. The only team to get a championship out of it is one of the biggest market teams in baseball.
>>64015892
>Supply and demand would imply players like Rodgers being paid significantly more than players like Dalton since the quality of his play is significantly higher.
That's literally what he said you fucking sperg.
>It inflates the worth of middling talent
No, it doesn't. The salary cap doesn't create upward salary pressure, the lack of/necessity of/difficulty in finding good QBs does that.
>>64015695
thank you for proving the green text
>>64015897
And Beane has put together good teams together more often than not despite that team being owned by turbo Jews.
>>64015608
That doesn't even make since you retard. Cheating the cap didn't provide them with more money, it gave them a way to spend more on payroll than they were allowed to legally.
>>64008142
>still being this assblasted that the patriots lost to the broncos LAST WEEK
>>64008142
Salary caps are stupid, that's why.
Cheatriots fans still salty over fetting BTFO. Let it go kids.
>>64016233
lol, so explain to me the physics of how paying out MORE money than you are legally allowed to, will actually result in you HAVING more money to spend on your stadium?
Don't worry, I'll wait.
>>64016284
>Broncos 0-3 in owls before cap
>got BTFO 3 times in a period where big market teams dominated and no one else even had a chance
>>64016424
not doing your research for you
>physics
>>64016497
lol, it's not a question of research you mong, it's physically impossible. 2 + 2 =/= 3
>>64016586
hmm i think you are getting physics, accounting and math confused
>>64016657
In this instance, they are all the same.
If you give away 2 of your 7 burgers, you don't suddenly have MORE than you did before, you have LESS. You have 5 burgers where ones you had 7. That is whopping DECREASE or 2 burgers. Now it will be more difficult to raise the 30 burgers you need to pay for stadium upgrades.
>>64016810
no in this case it is accounting you want, not physics.
>>64016922
Accounting doesn't create MORE dollars where once there were none. It can make it appear that way, but claiming that you have 8 burgers when you really only have 5 doesn't magically produce 3 more burgers.
>>64016973
ahh but what if your accountant takes burgers from one pile to give out rather than another. What if that pile was meant for something else. Your burger stand may not be following the fairness in burger selling rules.
Once again however physics is in no way used or broken
>>64008142
Because nobody gives a shit about cheating. See: the Patriots
>>64008142
>We didn't cheat because remember that time someone else cheated?
>Keep salary cap for teams that make playoffs
>give 20-30%salary cap increase for one year to the bottom of the scrap teams (looking at you browns)
there fixed it
prove me wrong senpai
Rationalizin and justifying the cheating : The Patriots fanbase
>>64017078
are you on drugs or high? i'm amazed that your sentences are grammatically correct considering the complete absence of logic in your post.
>>64017424
I'm neither high nor on drugs. Aren't those usually the same thing? If you did not understand my last post, reread it. If this does not help, take a course in accounting. (not home ec high school style)
>>64017078
>what if your accountant takes burgers from one pile to give out rather than another.
Gonna assume this is a question, and that you actually need answered.
>discretionary fund has 5 burgers
>stadium fund has 5 out of the 30 needed
>give out 4 burgers from discretionary fund
>put 1 burger from discretionary fund in stadium fund
>have 6 burgers in stadium fund
>instead of the 10 you would've had if you had used the discretionary fund for the stadium
You haven't helped pay for your stadium, you now have burgers in your stadium fund than you would have otherwise. All you've done is try to cover your tracks.
>>64017729
>now have burgers
now have *FEWER burgers
>>64017729
i've reread >>64017078 like 5 times and i still can't discern a point being made. he's not even making a point that's wrong, he's not making a point at all.
>>64017729
This is why I said I'm not doing the research. I do not know the details of NFL accounting. I am however sure that it's more complex than we would assume.
>>64017797
I apologize if I was unable to give an understandable example of how physics and accounting are fundamentally different. I'm currently working on something that is taking 99% of my attention and so am not putting in the effort to be clear that I normally would.
>pats fans are THIS salty
>>64008225
even this won't be enough. just look at all the shit that goes down at the college level. "oh, team X has to void some wins and lose some scholarships because player Y got a free hamburger from wendys." that shit still goes on CONSTANTLY, and everyone always says "well, that didn't mean player Y was a pro, we still won with the guys on the field."
cheating will be worth it until they actually start redacting team charters or filing federal felony charges. its easier for pro teams than college teams because even if they can't draft, they can trade.
owning an NFL team is the 2nd easiest way to make money in america, behind owning the fucking mint. year long bans and taking away draft picks means literally shit.
>>64017949
>This is why I said I'm not doing the research. I do not know the details of NFL accounting.
lmao there is no research involved, unless you're a troglodyte who needs to research counting. They made off-book payments to players, period. That doesn't "help pay for your stadium" it does the opposite, it leaves you with LESS money to pay for your stadium.
>>64018406
The reason I believe that is not the case is because of the quote given above and that sports talk people in the state I live in have said it was due to stadium accounting issues. I don't live in a Patriot or Bronco state (in fact the local team is in the NFC).
>>64015695
>>64014271
...
>>64008142
'96 to '98
That's why
>>64014356
like literally 3 maybe 4 teams in the entire league are always bad. In baseball and basketball it's 4 teams that win literally every year and the other 26 teams are terrible.
>>64008225
didn't they find out that patriots employees literally would sneak into locker rooms to steal playsheets?
anytime a broncos fan brings up cheating, just link him this
>>64008329
>delusional canadakucks
I bet you think 2 PSI is the difference between losing a playoff game and winning the superbowl
>>64023825
I bet you think 2 PSI is the difference between 75 degrees and 50
;>)
>Rule wasn't in place until 06
>somehow ne are cheating scum
Please explain
>still being salty over last weeks loss
>>64015580
>To say that the salary cap doesn't enforce parity is as ridiculous and, frankly, deceitful as arguing that the world is 10k years old.
don't know about these other guys, but my point is, what the fuck do we care about parity? if they can't afford to pay their players enough to keep competitive then sell out or dissolve the team.
you sound as if parity is the desired product instead of fielding teams that produce the absolute best in their sport.
>>64025885
Yurup soccer leagues are shit desu
>the state of Massachusetts
>still being this fucking salty 1(one) week later
Holy fucking kek
When people retire a lot of things are forgiven and forgot, for example Brett Farve was perhaps the most prolific Packer and went to their rivals, people burned his jersey and were holding up signs calling him a traitor and was boo'd in green bay every time he was on the field.
Couple years later and he goes to Green Bay to retire his number and everyone there treats him like a hero
>>64024797
>>64026099
>stop being so salty
>ignoring what the thread is about
lyl stay patriots obsessed faggits
>>64008199
>good franchises
>back-to-back Owl winners aren't good.
>>64030401
A topic on cheating comes up
Salty pats fans everywhere
>>64008197
Wrong
>>64008199
Correct
>>64008372
So? Like the fucking GM / owner?
> Shannahan, Bowlen
>>64008329
Wrong
>>64009324
they know why, it's just not true. Your eyes are green with jealousy
>>64009470
True
>>64013307
Wrong
>>64013838
> It's ok when we do it, i don't hate cheating, i just hate the patriots
>>64014356
This is beyond retarded. the teams who dominate in the cap would destroy everyone for decades.
>>64014618
are you this gay in real life too, or are you just expressing these fantasies online
>>64015356
> CONSPIRACY!!!! JEWS!!!
>>64015511
Correct
>>64015584
Yup.
>>64015608
>>64016142
> it's ok when someone else does it
Guy, that's called accounting. Are you fucking retarded? That's exactly what accounting fraud looks like.
>>64015892
What is a budget constraint, alex?
>>64016298
By who?
>>64017341
> it's ok when others do it
>>64019595
Illegal memeing
>>64023955
All points were scored in the 2nd half, but i guess that's too inconvenient. Cheating is ok when others do it though. <Carolina in the same season breaking the same rule on camera >
cheating fucks
>>64025885
Parity IS the desired product. Do we talk about games that were 56-7? No we talk about games that were decided on the final play.
>>64008142
I am sensing tons of residual butthurt.
It's okay New England. Today's another day. And Tom Brady is still gay.
>>64008142
Al Davis made a big deal about it.
