How was he so successful even though he used outdated tactics and fielded average players?
Take this this game for example:
https://youtu.be/LuUccSeABLs
He played some championship tier 4-4-2 formation with some of the most average and forgettable players you'll ever see.
>Owen Hargreaves
>Wes Brown
>Ji-sung Park
>Michael Carrick
>Nani
Was he just consistently lucky?
He made people work for 90+ minutes. 99% of football is just to man up and do what you're told
4-4-2 is GOAT fàm
>>64062182
I don't disagree but if this is true, why aren't we constantly seeing lesser teams beating better teams because they work harder? These same players (eg Wes Brown, Ji-sung Park) were absolutely shite when they went to play for other teams, even though they work their socks off just as much as they did at Utd
>>64062183
Yeah if you're a championship side or play in a shit league. No one would dare play a 4-4-2 against barcelona or any other big team, yet if SAF were still manager today, he'd probably still do it and most likely win.
I remember him playing the same formation against rmd in his last season and they btfo real madrid and only lost because of shit refereeing and the post.
>>64062233
Also just to add. That team vs real madrid was just as average as the team against barca. Danny lelbeck even managed to score in one of the games.
He bullied the ref until he could win the game 1-0 with a 90th minute goal
He shagged the queen, that's where the phrase Fergie Time comes from
>>64062233
>I don't disagree but if this is true, why aren't we constantly seeing lesser teams beating better teams because they work harder?
Arsenal 0-2 West Ham
Swansea 2-1 Man Utd
West Brom 2-1 Arsenal
Chelsea 1-2 Palace
City 1-2 West Ham
Newcastle 2-0 Liverpool
You serious, nigger?
>tactics = formation
k
>>64062526
>Chelsea 1-2 Palace
>Not Chelsea 0-1 Bournemouth
>>64062172
haha the URL ends with ABLs
>>64062172
dat messi move at 17:20
>>64062233
>why aren't we constantly seeing lesser teams beating better teams because they work harder?
we do it happens all the time
>>64062552
Your tactics are all based on the formation you play. You don't set your team up in a certain formation for them to just break that formation and play something totally different.
>>64062641
>Your tactics are all based on the formation you play.
it's actually the other way around.
also those pre-match graphics aren't really accurate in showing where a player will spend most of the match.
>>64062233
wes brown didnt work as hard when he left man u and park was just empty. that man gave everything he had on the field so he always has my respect as an ajax man. psv were all over the place in the season he played for them before he retired but he just kept on going.
>>64062679
obviously thee are variations, but players will generally stick to the positions in formation, especially during the defensive phase
>>64062641
>>64062679
You're both wrong and right at the same time.
If you have bad players, you first set up the formation and then choose tactics that normally go well with the formation. Because if your players aren't very fit and very smart, they won't add anything to the team by getting out of position - in fact, the more they stick to the position, the better for the team.
But if you have quality players, you go tactics first, formation second. Because with good players, you know that even if they break the discipline, they'll have someone else to cover for them while they'll be creating neccessary chaos upfront.
Ferguson was never dogmatic in his tactics, he was constanly evolving and keeping up to date with new styles and systems, he was the most adaptable manager ever
because the EPL is an easy league
his CL record shows he was an average manager
he bullied the media and many players
>>64062760
Not really. It was always gk>blooter to winger>wait for fullback overlap>cross into box.
There was nothing special about his style of play and it never evolved. It was basic as fuck. The only thing he changed was from a 442 to a 441 in the last few seasons before he left. Rooney would play behind the main striker instead of alongside them like he did with van nistelrooy
>>64062789
4411*
>>64062726
my point is that other than maybe telling you which players play generally more defensively and which more offensively, there's not a lot to be learned from those tv pre-match graphics.
just as an example compare the average positions of arsenal players in the match against crystal palace (pic) with the average positions in the match against sunderland (http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/34951798), but both times arsenal were playing a 4-2-3-1. also according to skysports sunderland were playing 3-4-3 (http://www.skysports.com/football/arsenal-vs-sland/teams/341327), but in the actualy match borini was pretty much playing as a midfielder rather than as a striker/advanced winger
>>64062747
true, but my point is that pre-match graphics aren't even accurate when it comes to showing what a player's position will be during the match
>>64062814
forgot the pic
>>64062789
But that's not true. He went to a counter-attacking 4-3-3 during United's best period of the last 10 years when he had Ronaldo, Tevez and Rooney tearing shit up
>>64062814
He did play a 4-4-2 against barcelona though with park on the wing. That reason alone should have lost them the game. Imagine wenger doing that, it's a guaranteed loss.
How did he gain the respect of his foreign players when nobody understood what he was saying?
he was able to take average players and make them work their asses off, essentially making them equal to world class players who don't work as hard. Also he was an authoritarian who didn't tolerate laziness.
However you could argue that he was the last of a dying breed, the dictator manager. With subsequent generations of players becoming more and more pampered the only thing that can save this style is a decades-long reputation of success which probably only Wenger still has.
EPL back then was just a one team league
>yanitedwinslol
Just like how buyernliga is now
>buyernwinslol
>>64062836
>He did play a 4-4-2 against barcelona though with park on the wing. That reason alone should have lost them the game.
or formations aren't actually as important as you think they are and what actually matters is what kind of role the players play in that formation
>>64062882
back when? When he started they were mid-table
Fergie is the most underrated tactical manager of all time. Look at how he used Welbeck as a defensive striker against Madrid at the Bernabeu or his tactics with Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez.
He was also the best man manager of all time, which is why he was able to get absolute shit players to play like legends. Look at his last two title winning teams - today's current team is miles better individually but they're nowhere.
I truly believe that if Fergie had this team right now they'd be top of the league, having not lost a game
>>64062876
>a decades-long reputation of success which probably only Wenger still has
>>64062910
memes aside, Wenger is still a legend. It's no small feat to be consistently 3rd or 4th while spending so much less than the opposition.
>>64062909
This is what makes me sad every time Van Gaal goes out to draw 0-0. The league would already be won with Fergie in charge.
>>64062857
I''ve wondered this as well. I'm decent at understanding english yet I understand at most every fifth word he utters. Does he have a translator in the locker room or do people get used to it? Same goes with heavy liverpool accents which I can barely understand.
>>64062857
literally all of them had translators
>>64062930
>>64062939
I think yelling is universally understood.
>>64062916
Man, it's been 11 years since The Invincibles. Wenger was in charge for all this time - and that's more than enough to build yet another dynasty.
Bottom line is: even if he didn't have the money City or Chelsea had, he should've been doing better than 104 months without a single trophy.
>>64062960
>Bottom line is: even if he didn't have the money City or Chelsea had, he should've been doing better than 104 months without a single trophy.
Spoiler Alert: He did. He was just too stubborn to spend it
>>64062960
the FA cup and meme cup are completely useless for the top teams, despite what the BBC says. This means that the only relevant trophies for Arsenal are the Prem and CL. There is no way in hell they can win either while spending 30-50% of what other top teams spend
>>64062782
this is pretty accurate. Ferguson was took a long time to figure out what to do in Europe
>>64062889
You can see from the highlights video that he didn't move from that left side. Maybe to help evra mark messi, but he was still their winger. That means they had pretty much no out ball down that left side since park is fucking shite. He's literally le work hard man with no talent
>>64062978
>the FA cup and meme cup are completely useless for the top teams
They weren't for Fergie...
>>64062978
I can see wenger maybe (put some emphasis on that maybe) winning one more league title before he retires and he'll be replaced by a manager who will win a bunch more trophies based on wengers team and youth development and wenger will get 0 credit.
The media will say that he should have left 10 years ago and glorify the winning successor.
>>64063033
Wenger has more FA cups than Fergie and in much less time. He just doesn't have meme cups. Neither of them matter for their respective teams, not in the last 10-15 years certainly
>>64062978
The FA cup is a complete waste of time unless you are a really small, poor club.
There is no point playing your first team to win a measly few million in prize money if you are in the Cl
It's quite obvious his tactics weren't outdated in the slightest bit
That much success for that long isn't brought on by luck
>>64062233
Because they don't work that hard. Try to make a football player run 16-18 km each training day. None will because they don't have either the heart nor the will, and since they have been lazying around most of their lives their legs wouldn't handle it anyway
>>64062814
arsenal have those kinds of average positions because they dominate possession, where they have a less rigid shape
arsenal like to overload the midfield when they have possession, so all their attack gets jumbled up, but you wouldn't see them all there when they have the ball
compare to the sunderland average positions where the shape looks much more rigid, like a standard 3-4-3, because they were defending most of the game. borini is deeper because arsenal like to overload the left and he was basically pinned back, whereas watmore had acres of space left behind by a maurauding bellerin to exploit, so could basically play as a supporting forward
>>64063063
I wouldn't be so sure
>fergie time
>pressuring referees
>getting 2 of the luckiest goals in 1999 CL final
>>64062978
Is the FA Cup really a waste of time? Seems worth it. It's super old and historical, you can try for the Treble, at the end of the day it's hardware?
Is it really treated as a joke?
>>64062909
>defensive striker
nah, he was definitely playing more as an offensive sweeper
>>64063090
the value of historical prestige means nothing these days. Going for the treble is for teams like Barca and Bayern who are almost guaranteed to win their leagues and to reach at least the CL semis.
>>64063090
Decide for yourself.
Winners in the last 20 years
Arsenal x6
Chelsea x6
United x3
Liverpool x2
City x1
Portsmouth x1
Wigan x1
>>64063082
yes, but my point was that it's stupid to judge football tactics just based on what tv companies choose to show as the formation before the match
>>64063087
Fergie time was proven to be false.
Also Chelsea just get as many decisions in their favour and their 14th!
epl babby
One can only dream of what Fergy could have done with that Arsenal team of 04. Probably won the treble all over again. That and the chelsea teams of 05 and 06 would have suited him well.
>>64063135
>Fergie time was proven to be false.
What?
>>64063231
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20464371
>>64062782
>his CL record shows he was an average manager
>won two CL titles
>two more finals but beaten by GOAT Barca side
How is that average you mong?
>>64063266
he could have won those finals if he wasnt so stubborn. i read his biography and he said he set up his teams to enforce utds playing style on barcelona, which ended up backfiring as barca dominated. you cant just take the game to an opponent like barca, even if you have a talented team like utd did in 09 and 11. he treated the game like it was against chelsea or arsenal in the league.
look at chelsea and inter against that same barca side. instead of going out to play football against barca they set up to defend the whole game and ended up winning by frustrating the opposition and scoring on the counter.
>>64063184
>One can only dream of what Fergy could have done with that Arsenal team of 04
Set them up to endlessly cross from the wings and asked Sol Campbell to foul everything that moved right in front of the referee, I should imagine.
>>64063075
there's no fucking point in making players run 18km every training day, they'll just burn out and go stale
>>64062172
>That unselfish Ronaldo
>>64063527
How does that help you win 13 titles? Sounds like it weould hinder you
>>64063266
>won one on a penalty shoot out (complete luck)
>won the other with last minute goals (complete luck)
certainly wasnt brilliant management
>>64062233
>he'd probably still do it and most likely win
no he wouldnt
he was a fucking flop in europe for 15 years before he swallowed his pride and played 451
>>64063646
2 trophies and 2 other finals is hardly a 'flop' is it? 99% of managers can only dream of that.
if Ferguson was in charge, United would literally walk the league right now
>>64063646
>he was a fucking flop in europe for 15 years before he swallowed his pride and played 451
yet both of his winning finals were won using 4-4-2. he played with 2 out and out strikers in both.
>>64063632
>both goals scored by subs
>not great management
>>64063690
>rooney
>out and out striker
nope
>>64063700
>allowing potential goalscorers only to play for scrap minutes
>luckily they have just enough time to score
>great management
Had he started them, the final would had ended like 9-2. "Great" manager you have there, "great" britain
Roy Keane himself says that Fergushit was overrated and inferior to Brian Clough. I'll take his word over a bunch of pissy manure bandwagoners.
>>64063632
don't forget refball and literally bad luck that knocked them out many times too
>>64063711
You're right, the CL was so much better that year that Finnish Inter won it.
>>64063632
By this logic any final decided by less than 2 goals is luck?
>tfw you realise that Bayern were "lucky" to win the champions league in 2013
>tfw you realise that Chelsea were "lucky" to win the champions league in 2012
>tfw you realise that Milan were "lucky" to win the champions league in 2007
>tfw you realise that Barcelona were "lucky" to win the champions league in 2006
>tfw you realise that Liverpool were "lucky" to win the champions league in 2005
>tfw you realise that Milan were "lucky" to win the champions league in 2003
>tfw you realise that Madrid were "lucky" to win the champions league in 2002
>tfw you realise that Bayern were "lucky" to win the champions league in 2001
>tfw you realise that Madrid were "lucky" to win the champions league in 1998
>tfw you realise that Juventus were "lucky" to win the champions league in 1996
>tfw you realise that Ajax were "lucky" to win the champions league in 1995
>tfw you realise that Germany were "lucky" to win the world cup in 2014
>tfw you realise that Spain were "lucky" to win the world cup in 2010
>tfw you realise that Italy were "lucky" to win the world cup in 2006
>tfw you realise that Liverpool were "lucky" to win all but one of their champions leagues
>it took him 26 years to win only 2 european cups
>mfw
>>64063709
at the time he was.
>>64063748
Fergie in 24 years won more than Shankly and Paisley did in that same time.
Fergie > Shankshit and Paishit combined
4-4-2 suited the players he had at the time. Beckham and Giggs wouldn't have worked in a 4-3-3, and he'd have also had to break up the Yorke/Cole partnership.
>>64063723
They are both way inferior to Bob Paisley. I'm not even a Liverlool fan but that guy was a footballing genius, even more-so than clough.
>>64063749
no he wasnt, ronaldo and rooney played wide roles with tevez through the middle
park clogged the middle with 2 of hargreaves/carrick/scholes for most games
>>64063723
>Fergushit was overrated and inferior to Brian Clough
That's a funny way to spell Bobby Robson, the actual best british manager.
Also Keane is super-butthurt still today, take his opinion with a grain of salt.
>>64063723
Roy Keane is a bitter petty little manchild who has spent his entire post utd career chatting shit about the club who made him a world superstar and multi millionaire because he is so butt flustered about getting the fucking boot, which he deserved by the way
>>64063767
Paisley didn't prove himself anywhere else. He's basically Roberto Di Matteo tier. And I am a Liverpool fan.
>>64063767
he just took over a dominant and vastly superior team which he was already the assistant manager of, nothing impressive about that
>>64063760
paisley won more european cups and won the league at a better ratio m80
>>64063767
Name three matches where Paisley tactically beat the opposition and explain what he did.
>>64063792
liverpool werent dominant tho they had 1 title in like 7 or 8 years before he took over
>>64063795
Purely because he took over an already successful team. Paisley was not even in the top 10 managers ever.
>>64063782
Keane single handedly dragged United to the 99 final in Turin. Fergie should worship the ground he walks on.
>>64063816
going by this logic, and tom, dick or harry can take over a successful team and continue winning. look at moyes when he took over the high scoring, all conquering utd team that fergy left him. going by statistics, that team was fucking beast. they could have broken lelseas goal scoring record and points record if they didnt become complacent at the end.
>>64063090
Fergie killed the FA Cup when Man Utd withdrew from entering it in 99-00.
>>64063848
You need to prove yourself at more than 1 club to be a 'great' manager.
>>64063816
in the 5 years before he took over liverpool won 1 league title, 1 fa cup and 1 uefa cup, they had never won the european cup
stay buttmad paisley is the goat
>>64063818
Fergie had plenty of good players working under him, Roy Keane wasn't even anywhere near the best of them. Big whoop, he had a good game in a champions league match, so did lots of other players who played for Fergie.
>>64063848
Are you comparing that shit team moyes inherited to the Liverpool side that Paisley took over? Top fucking kek.
>>64063874
>Roy Keane wasn't even anywhere near the best of them
kek
>>64062172
don't know but even in FM he'd btfo me with his fucking 4-4-2
fuck
>>64063869
Name three matches where Paisley tactically beat the opposition and explain what he did.
>>64063818
its common knowledge that saf thought patrick vieira was a superior player compared to keane.
keane was just >lehardtackleman. literally nothing special. he would have been average as fuck in any other team
United's collapse after he left is pretty telling of his impact on the team.
>>64063888
I could name 10 players better than Keane off the top of my head from the ferguson era, probably more if I had a real good think about it.
>>64063861
>mfw utd fans pretend scotland is relevant
>>64063906
The fact that Fergie then won the European cup winners cup with a Scottish team shows what a GOAT he was
>>64063901
Back to /arse/. Keane shat all over Vieria.
Fergie deliberately sabotaged United and appointed moyes as his replacement to make his own achievements look better. Yet the manurecuks still suck his shrivelled cock.
>>64062782
If SAF was "average" based on Yurup then Wenger is mediocre
Don't forget about Fergie GOATing it up with Aberdeen, won 3 leagues 5 cups, and the cup winner's cup beating Bayern and Madrid.
>>64063748
The European cup was irrelevant until 1992.
inb4 you try to claim otherwise despite probably being born in 1995 yourself
>>64063885
>shit team
>won the league by 11 points
>>64063920
If Fergie managed to simultaneously win the league and sabotage his team he truly is the GOAT
>>64063922
wonga was a keown babby
>>64063927
hue
>>64063919
you can even google it. he wanted vieira so he could tell keane to fuck off
>>64063901
Vieira was a size babby. He would have been conference tier if not for his size and build.
>>64063929
only reason they won that season was RVP, the rest of the team was painfully average
>>64063748
Ferguson had to figure out how to make British teams win in Europe from scratch. Thanks to the scousers English football had years of catching up to do
>>64063938
>you can google my made up quotes
Nah famalam.
>>64062172
His tactics weren't really outdated for most of the years he managed. 4-4-2 (with box-to-box midfielders and strike partnerships) was the gold standard for a long time, especially in British football.
>tfw we live in a world where both the 4-4-2 and the I-formation are obsolete
>>64063539
That's my point. If they don't have the technique, gaining that extra endurance is the only way to go. Football players average 14/18 km per match in 90 minutes, and you can train further than that to have no problems to run as a workhouse all the match; injuries are not caused by slow aerobic training. The only thing stopping them is mental strength. "Burning out" is not having enough heart to endure it. I go through that training myself even not being a pro. Of course it sucks, it even makes you want to die, and there is no way a normal guy that is winning as much as a first division football player would be motivated enough to do it. You need a great trainer so that players that aren't elite work hard enough to compete with the best. That's why you don't see it often, only in teams with guys like Fergie or Simeone
>>64064035
>>tfw we live in a world where both the 4-4-2 and the I-formation are obsolete
4-4-2 is still used by nearly all teams as a defensive formation, even the big european teams. two banks of four is one of the hardest to break down out of any formation.
many people dont realise it, but these new 4-5-1 and 4-2-3-1 formations are just evolutions of the original 4-4-2/4-4-1-1, so its not totally obsolete, its just slightly outdated but has been refined.
>>64062172
He was an incredible man-manager, much better than overrated Mourinho.
At one point he also made great signings, he build the team of scholes and giggs which were people he really trusted, and brought a really strong core of players, from keane,cantona and stam, to soljskaer, van nistelroy van der saar...
To answer your question in his last years he just knew how to win the league, it's like when you do an exam that you don't really need to know everything, just how to pass the exam, he had the same ability, he just knew how to win the PL, so when his best players retired or got old he went defensive and let Rio and Vidic carry the team, this two alone looked unbeatable for a good chuck of time.
I used to write in a mancunian forum and I still remember saying that if SAF retired United should start forgetting about getting deep in the CL, and it was right. There are things I can't really forgive him, I really wish he had given veron some more time to make it, if he did it for fucking anderson he should have done the same with him, just look at de gea and how he started his spell there, veron was a great player and would have make it there no doubt.
>>64065076
He explains why he didn't stick with veron in his latest book. It's because he would never stick to the formation which was an act of indiscipline for saf.
That's literally what it says in the book.
>>64062930
>translator from fergie to scottish
>translator from scottish to english
>translator from english to players nationality
>>64062172
The crowds were so much better back then. And that was only 7 years ago. Now it's daytrip bandwagoners that sit there in silence. Football is dead
>>64065198
>muh rose tinted glasses
>muh everything was better in my day
Hard to him lucky considering he won a European trophy with a non-Glasgow scottish club
>>64062876
Bullshit. Pep is a dictator. Mou is a dictator. Even fucking Brendan is.
>>64063953
Won a European trophy in his first attempt at United too
>>64063923
Fergie's Aberdeen were also the last team that wasn't Celtic or Rangers to win the SPL.
>>64063906
this coming from an irishman
