Democracy is the sacred cow that nobody wants to touch or even discuss.
The left-wing, even the extreme left wing, say that "capitalism" is the problem, but that "DEMOCRACY in the workplace" is the solution.
The right-wing populists say that "political correctness" is the problem and the solution is popular uprising of the nation, democracy.
All agree democracy is the solution.
Of all the problems we as thinking beings face, the hardest to recognize are the biggest and most obvious because our brains dismiss them in advance as background noise. In the case of modern society, the elephant in the room is our propensity for choosing ideas by their popularity with individuals and not their fitness for the task as a whole. This elephant manifests itself as democracy, consumerism, trends and social cliques.
We the people (who think) recognize that democracy has four major failings:
1) By the nature of trying to find one solution that represents everyone, democracy cannot accept any complete plan and thus offend some of its members, but must work out a "compromise" that preserves the appearance of change but, by adulterating and hybridizing details of any proposed plan, make it a muddle that defaults to the status quo.
2) Intelligence and nobility of character are rare; most people lack these traits in the degree needed to make decisions for a nation, and democracy cancels out the votes of the intelligent (the minority) with mass opinion.
3) Democracy encourages egomania by encouraging people to vote according to what brings them personal gain, ignoring the question of the best plan for all (usually beyond their comprehension).
4) To motivate sluggish masses to pick one choice over another, democratic leaders must oversimplify topics and create theatrical opposites. Proposals must be streamlined to the most simplistic four-second sentence available
>>81292363
Wrong pic shit
Agreed. People need to be ruled by their betters, not by their 'equals'. The fundamental problem of democracy is that it can only work with an informed voter base, and there is absolutely no desire from the general public to become informed.
>>81292255
THIS
SEE:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQVIeTLqgOw
>>81292255
5) Democracy is a justification for terrorism, as you can fairly blame the people for what the government does. If a dictator invades Iraq, the Iraqi sympathizers can kill the dictator in revenge. If a democracy invades Iraq, then Iraqi sympathizers can justifiably start terrorizing the democracy and killing people, as they voted for it.
6) Democracies are unstable. Other countries don't know who they will be dealing with in a few years, and long term planning is impossible.
7) Democracies are warlike. The justification for invading other countries is often that they are not democracies. Democracies are intolerant of non-democracies.
The only justification for democracy is that it leads to better outcomes.
If it doesn't, then there's no reason to have democracy.
>>81292522
This.
Volodya speaks the truth. But only if the leader is as competent as Lee Kuan Yew or Putin
>>81292522
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQVIeTLqgOw
How do we get the intelligent and noble to rule? in times like this, full of ignorants, dumbfucks, commie scum.
A good leader with power is all we need
Democracy a shit but at least it changes. A smart benevolent dictator would be far better but that's only if you don't get stuck with some communist fuckwit instead.
>>81292255
>Democracy is the sacred cow that nobody wants to touch or even discuss.
There's a reason why the US is a republic not a democracy.
>1) By the nature of trying to find one solution that represents everyone
I cannot speak for other countries but the US doesnt' function on that principle. Congress exists to stop all bills except those that are deemed necessary enough to gain support of both houses and the president (except in the rare occasion of a veto and then it's a super majority of both chambers to override it).
>2) Intelligence and nobility of character are rare
Neither of which are designed or even depended on in the US governmental system. We long since recognized factonalism as a necessary part of any governmental system as people are self-interested and self-serving. Thus was created a system designed to take advantage of factionalism to ensure that no one faction gains too much power or retains power for too long.
>3) Democracy encourages egomania by encouraging people to vote according to what brings them personal gain
See above.
>4) To motivate sluggish masses to pick one choice over another, democratic leaders must oversimplify topics and create theatrical opposites.
This isn't true for every form of government to ensure at least enough popular support/legitimacy to maintain order?
>>81293160
> "at least it changes"
> all parties end up being identical
You can't get rid of liberal democracy at the ballot box.
The problem is pure representative democracy. We will have to move towards DIRECT DEMOCRACY. It works, period. Just look at Switzerland.
>>81293302
It didn't work in Athens. There's no guarantee the people won't make retarded decisions.
>>81293160
>but at least it changes
Yes, but looking at historical trends it always changes into progressive liberalism with a detached political caste.
When you have a small centralized power, you can remove that power far more easily than if you have a big and widespread one.
>>81293207
This "the US is a republic not a democracy" meme HAS TO STOP, you fag. The US is BOTH a republic AND a representative democracy.
>>81293302
If you make it non-anonymous and responsible, sure. Even Switzerland is suffering from the current ills.
>>81293302
Pretty much this. Referendum everything and everything ugly and nice will be brought out into the limelight.
No jews
>>81292255
And your alternative is what exactly? Anarchy? Fascism? Communism?
Democracy is a shitty system but everything else is worse.
>>81293363
PURE direct democracy does not work, but using many elements of direct democracy (like a dozen referendums every single year) DOES work. Proof: Switzerland.
>>81292255
I don't see anyone on the far-left loving democracy. If anything they despise it when they don't get their way and would prefer some sort of oligarchy where only they get a say. Moderate leftists seem to like democracy as do centristd and moderate right wingers
>>81293399
>republic AND a representative democracy.
Republic:
>elected individuals representing the citizen body[2][3] and government leaders exercise power according to the rule of law.
Democracy:
> Democracy is further defined as (a:) "government by the people; especially : rule of the majority (b:) "a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections."
you just said the same thing twice but disregarded the difference between a Republic and a Democracy (sans representation).
It's a semantical argument but one that is worth some discussion which I will take up if you demonstrate an interest in addressing the other points I raised.
>>81293373
You should read Hobbes' Leviathan.
The problem isn't big government, it's the risk of no government. The ultimate job for the state is to provide security. People in stable countries forget this, but they also forget that all states are fragile one way or another.
Without a sovereign power there would be “no arts, no letters, no society, and, which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death, and the life of man solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short”.
>>81292255
Yeah having coups every few years is so much greater than democracy. wow
>>81293520
Actually I preffer fascism to the others.
>>81293537
One example does not prove a system works. All I need is a single counter example.
Proof that referenda don't work: most US states with direct democracy at the ballots, which have never done anything worthwhile with them.
My preference: government by artificial intelligence.
>>81293537
Direct democracy isn't without problems. It hinges on having a well educated population and unbiased media.
>>81292255
If OP picture was showing not democracy it would be Lion as absolute leader and wolf leading oposition/rebels.
>>81293596
>You should read Hobbes' Leviathan.
Will do.
>>81292255
the problem is that our democracy is really an illusion, at least here in America. Our choices for President are a corrupt money collecting whore criminal and a billionaire with his own share of shady shit
Im still voting Trump, and like the guy, but I wish we had better choices, but money and connections are all that matter in politics
>>81292255
Also, if you want to bring up alleged drawbacks of democratic systems of government would you also be interested in knowing strengths of democratic systems?
I'd argue it comes down which offers the greatest net value after weighing the strengths and weaknesses of the various systems.
Not that I expect a response given how this is a pointless "1 post by this ID" thread.
>>81293786
These are not fundamental problems with democracy, just oversights the founding fathers did not take into account. Big business should have never been allowed into politics.
>>81293734
You also need an ethnically homogeneous population.
Imagine a referendum in the UK on whether we should have Sharia Law. Muslims would vote yes, everyone else would vote no. It would settle nothing. The only thing it would show would be the relative population percentages of Muslims and non Muslims.
Democracy doesn't work if you have more than one culture and ethnicity.
Multicultural countries need to be enlightened dictatorships, like Singapore.
>>81292255
Democracy reflects the morality of its people. The modern world is morally bankrupt, hence are its elected representatives. Return to God, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
>>81293692
Fascism, as originally intended, was a dictatorship only temporarily. Hitler himself intended to have elections once every generation.
>>81292255
The problem is that the establishment has achieved to equal democracy with freedom. It is in all the movies. Every science fiction product in the mainstream has it as an element. Oh, you have overthrown your evil dictators. Good for you. When will you erect a democracy?
Democracy is just a fraud to make people think they have agreed to the state ruling them and that there is no need to overthrow it because democracy already is a form of constant revolution. To hell with the state, destroyer of liberty!
>>81292255
Democracy works great in homogeneous nations of similar values.
>>81292255
IMO the problem was giving the vote to women
its all been downhill since then
>>81292662
> tfw the God Emperor died
Couldn't they just have pickled him in formaldehyde and said he was sleeping? I want to believe he watches over us still
>>81294300
It only works great if you assume the nation state is valid.
An Islamist would tell you the nation state is bullshit and you have a duty to everyone in your own religion regardless of country.
An anti-nationalist would say democracy should not stop at borders.
Borders and states are just human constructs and aren't 'real'.
>>81294479
go to bed stirner
>>81294364
What's Singapore like? I love your system of government. I think it's the only way to do it when you have many different races and cultures.
Why don't you guys start offering government-as-a-service for shitty countries?
>>81293399
>silence
Yeah, that's what I thought. There are differences, significant and important differences, but you'd rather just raise a stink than actually discuss the issue.
>>81294479
These people have to be physically removed.
>>81294479
>>81294195
every fucking time, social construct my ass. Go fuck yourselves with some molotov's spineless and mindless freaks. Better dead than red.
Explain Switzerland then a-hole. Best country in the world is most democratic.
There is just a gigantic lack of discussion-culture in our societies, which is the real problem. This ensures that people don't try to understand where the other side is coming from or reach consensus, but rather just keep yelling that the other side is retarded.
>>81293903
But what are its strengths?
>>81294689
That is a weak argument. The nation state has no reality outside of what people agree on. If you had a strong argument, you could justify its existence on these terms alone.
Here, I'll start:
> People need separate states because they disagree on fundamental issues and need security
> States correspond roughly to human nations
> States need to be geographically contiguous
> Therefore, we need states and borders
>>81294736
They have the luxury of being neutral mountain jews, I'm not convinced their systems would work globally
>>81292255
And yet the most democratic countries in the world are those that have the best living standards.
>>81294736
Swiss citizens are about 98% white and monocultural. That won't work in most western nations. Democracy doesn't work if voters just split into ethnic blocs all the time.
Democracy, capitalism and socialism are all cancer, we need a new system.
>>81292255
>complains about how democracy sucks
>Slovenia, Russian satellite state
yfw?
>>81294983
How about government with a command economy run by artificial intelligence?
>>81292255
Democracy never really existed but i get your points.
Just have direct democracy, like Switzerland.
>>81295000
>Slovenia, Russian satellite state
So this is the legendary American education i keep hearing about?
>>81294830
Compared to what other forms?
Monarchy? Better, longer-lasting form of legitimacy (no bloodline crises or disagreements on who has better "blood"). Simpler and cleaner lines of authority. Etc.
Communism? Marxist or Leninist? More adaptable to social and economic pressures and constraints. Better diplomatic resources through enhanced avenues of soft power. etc.
Authoritarianism? Similar to monarchy in regards to legitimacy though less about blood and more about systemic repression of political antagonists. Less susceptible to panics and "big vision" idiotic policy swings. Etc.
As Churchill said,
>Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
The saying highlights how no system is perfect, that they all have their drawbacks but that of them all democracy has arguable the least net loss.
>>81292255
Problem isn't democracy. Problem is equality.
Not all vote should be equal. People with degree and big salary should be allowed to vote more
>>81295029
I think once technology gets better, and AI take over most jobs this may be the only solution.
>>81295118
Direct democracy is only applied for minor policies though.
>>81293714
>My preference: government by artificial intelligence.
Yes well having a superintelligent demigod take enlightened decisions for us would be great but we're at least 1 decade from that possibility.
>>81295131
The problem is that democracies are obviously less stable and more warlike than other forms of government. These claims don't stack up to reality.
Western liberal democracies invaded Iraq and fucked up the middle east. They fail to hold their own leaders accountable. Under Western liberal democracy, most people's incomes have got worse off since 1980. Western democracies have got corrupt and bought off by corporate money.
Asian dictatorships by technocrats seem to be the best, stablest and most peaceful governments in the world today. Asian dictatorships have given their people rising incomes when other governments haven't.
If you were a sheep why would you vote for a wolf, whose main diet is sheep and deer, over a lion, whose main diet is gazelles and wildebeest and shit?
>>81295197
Have you ever read Iain Banks "Culture" series?
>>81292255
Democracy only works on small fry issues like how we should tax people and various other civil matters.
More fundamental, significant issues like culture and way of life cannot be solved by Democratic voting because it's too easy to rig the system and failure tends to be not an option.
This constant push of Secularism vs Islam and Nationalists vs Liberals is bringing this problem to the forefront.
>>81294897
>the best living standards
Having lots of Shekels is the only value in life?
The only way you measure a nation's success?
Democracy is trash. Anyone with sense knows this. Libertarians and ancaps have said so from the beginning. Monarchists have always said so. It's why America's founders had the good sense to found a Constitutional Republic. Just a shame that democracy infected that country.
>>81295138
>People with degree and big salary should be allowed to vote more
Then you just end up with feudalism within 1 or 2 generations.
>>81295321
The middle east was fucked before Iraq, hell Saddam, an Asian dictator, kicked off the Iran-Iraq war and the Gulf War.
>>81295138
That is wrong. We can vote to chsnge whatever we want, whenever we want. This includes the constitution.
>>81294874
>>81294943
>implying these boons aren't the result of their top tier democracy
>all this shit about betters, elites, aristocracy
>all of you would be either the lowest class or outright shot
Democracy is alright. The problem is in the people, not the system. If we changed the system, we'd still have the problem.
Your communism won't really solve much.
>>81295000
>>81295119
Actually if we had to define Slovenia as a "satellite state", it is France's satellite state. Napoleon created the Illyrian Provinces which were the basis of modern-day nation-state Slovenia.
>>81295453
>Saddam, an Asian dictator, kicked off the Iran-Iraq war and the Gulf War.
The Middle East isn't in Asia, I'm talking about East Asia.
But I hope you realize the Iran-Iraq war was backed by the USA and the USSR. It was a proxy war. And the USA "green lighted" Saddam's invasion of Kuwait, which he did after the US-backed Iran-Iraq war left his country in ruins.
>>81292255
You are absolutely correct.
What we need is weighted voting. Not everyone's vote will count the same. People with lots of voting power will be intelligent, well established individuals who have garnered lots of respect in their community, and who care about the best interests of their people, rather than themselves.
Anyone who gets a paycheck for the government, whether as an employee or as a welfarite loses their vote (conflict of interest)
>>81295354
Not yet. I'm Googling about it now.
>>81294689
>Better dead than red.
You are not the brightest if you assume from my post about abolishing the and the attached picture, that it is a leftist message.
>>81295528
Well, Switzerland has an unusually large number of non citizens. It's more like a Gulf State with lots of non-citizens doing shitty work and citizens leading the good life.
Nations like Sparta did this long ago and it generally didn't end well. The helots rise up and kill the ephors after a while.
>>81295321
>The problem is that democracies are obviously less stable and more warlike than other forms of government.
How do you come to that conclusion? Let's think about it in comparison to a totalitarian system. In one system it takes an agreement with a large number of people to declare and prosecute a war (other than being attacked) while the other it only takes one person to decide.
>Western liberal democracies invaded Iraq and fucked up the middle east.
First off, the middle east was already fucked up and had been for centuries. Don't think the "Arab spring" is so new phenomenon. Islam is, IIRC, the only religion where its prophet practiced and espoused war.
Secondly, if Iraq hadn't invaded Kuwait in the first place then the "western liberal democracies" wouldn't have any reason or justifications to invade Iraq.
>Asian dictatorships by technocrats seem to be the best
You mean like Mao and his "cultural revolution" or the Kim's dynastic "Worker's Party" in the DPRK?
>>81295638
>People with lots of voting power will be intelligent, well established individuals who have garnered lots of respect in their community
This sounds like a positive feedback loop. People with high voting power will vote for policies that make voting requirements even more restrictive and concentrate education and wealth. Eventually you end up with Feudalism.
>>81295056
>unaware of Russian influence over the Balkans
>believing NATO propaganda
>>81295638
That's an interesting idea. But I think you'll agree we need to weight votes not based on wealth. I don't want to live in a society where more shekels equals more voting power. Like you said, we need weighted voting based on virtue, nobility of character, etc. But how do we determine that "weight" so it doesn't get manipulated? I see no solution... rich people would use media influence to make the masses give them more voting weight....
Scale is Democracy's problem.
The people are too far removed from a Central Government. Every new layer on top cannot help but subvert the purpose of having that layer.
Return to Parish Councils, the big problems of Big Government are removed. What do we actually need central governance to actually manage? An Army to defend the country. An oversight for the Legal Society. Maybe someone needs to manage the Energy Grid (although that could be handled locally 2bh).
>>81295744
The sheer number of wars fought by Western democracies shows how warlike they are.
Virtually all democratic nations today didn't START democratic. They were invaded by democracies and forced to become democratic.
For example, Germany and Japan.
> First off, the middle east was already fucked up and had been for centuries.
It was fine under the Ottomans. WW1 (started by democracies) and Israel (Balfour declaration, by the UK) and US invasions have fucked it.
> You mean like Mao and his "cultural revolution" or the Kim's dynastic "Worker's Party" in the DPRK?
China is doing very well. DPRK used to be a well developed nation with a good economy until the US declared war on it.
Taiwan and South Korea were both US backed dictatorships till the late '80s. But even so they had good economies and looked after their own people.
>>81292522
That's why we need to throw out the Brexit referendum! Stop letting Europeans vote for right wing parties! We technocrats know better, immigration is good for you, culture is bad!
>>81295921
>What do we actually need central governance to actually manage?
Security, trade and taxation. Want national infrastructure? Want nuclear weapons? Want higher education and research? Want to negotiate trade treaties with other nations?
Bargaining and organization power, economies of scale and the ability to plan at scale are where state governments come in.
>>81295911
It won't be based on wealth, but rather respect.
Respect is a very real metric in human beings that isn't often recognized.
>>81296088
Democracy is the reason that technocrats have to be politically correct, because they have to worry about ethnic factions and other special interests trying to vote their power away.
There are plenty of researchers who show that ethnically homogeneous neighborhoods are higher trust. A pure technocrat would take all that into account. If you look at nations like Singapore they do take ethnic conflict into account.
Technocrats who don't have to worry about political correctness would be able to formulate policies that deal with (eg) lower mixed-ethnic trust and with high black crime rates.
>>81295911
There must be a way to make it work, you just need to get creative
>>81296088
>We technocrats know better
Are you saying that is never the case? That a person with a Masters' Degree in Public Policy who spends his life studying society can make a more informed decision than an unemployed drunkard who say... voted for candidate X just because he reminds him of Tom Cruise, his favorite actor? There are such voters, you know. Many people who voted for Brexit didn't understand what it actually means. This is undeniable. I know a person in Britain - personally - who voted for Brexit and I talked to him about the EU a little and after 3 sentences I realized he doesn't know what the EU is. Not even close. His idea of what the EU is was out of this world, something fictional.
>immigration is good for you, culture is bad!
So the EU is pushing the agenda "culture is bad"? In what way? And what is "culture"? Folk dances? National costumes? Local customs? These are the things nobody cares about EXCEPT when they pretend to "stand for their nation". My culture is European culture, I read German writers, French writers, I listen to Austrian composers, these are embedded in who I am as a person, who all Slovenians are. And that actually goes on as who I am as a person is also defined by the Japanese cartoons I watched as a child, and the American movies, etc. - All these are part of my being and define me. How is EU anti-culture in any way?
I only agree with you that the EU made a mass with the immigration thing, that was really a catastrophic mistake. But as for the rest, I see no problem with a common European identity and even seeing oneself as a defender of European values, not of Iberian, Italic, Catalonian, etc. values - but the common substance of them all which is more concrete than the local specifics.
>>81296334
They're the ones that brought the different ethnic factions in in the first place. Elites don't care about crime, it doesn't affect them. So long as the surveillance and police state are powerful enough, they are happy to impose a certain level of discomfort onto the population. They have no national loyalty left. These are the elites of the modern world.
>>81296026
>For example, Germany and Japan.
Not the guy you're replying to but both started the respective wars which lead to the removal of their monarchies.
>inb4 the Kaiser a good boy he dindu nuffin
>>81292255
What your looking for is a meritocracy, now for the low, low price of all the money in the world you could have your very own meritable people running this show, as an added bonus we will throw in one world government and abolishment of war
>Note a new world ideology OR religion is a prerequisite
Well, back in the days when I was getting my bachelor on CS, I got my degree after writing an essay about how the only legitimate form of goverment should be one ruled by an (perfec) AI, designed to make only logical decisions. Kind like the singularity but without them trying to kill humans.
Up to this day, more than a decade later, I still believe in it.
I think our brightest and logical should rule over the whole population. And that the common should have no say on that. I don't like to voice this, because I don't want to be more ostracized.
>>81296634
To add: These people measure everything in terms of broad economic impact and waste too much consideration on people who aren't part of the nation or union they're supposed to be leading.
They're human filth.
Wolves like hillary eat sheep.
Lions like trump protect them.
>>81296026
>The sheer number of wars fought by Western democracies shows how warlike they are.
How many are there? Are you including European wars with states before or during times they were not democracies (Napoleon)?
>Germany
Germany was "invaded and made democratic" rather than they chose to be democratic through the Prussian Constitutions or chose democracy as its primary form of government under Otto von Bismark during the German unification or are you only thinking about the system of government _after_ WWII?
>It was fine under the Ottomans.
Was it now? Let's start with the "centuries old problems."
>Revolts, reversals, and revivals (1566–1683)
Ottoman miniature about the Szigetvár campaign showing Ottoman troops and Tatars as avantgarde
>The effective military and bureaucratic structures of the previous century came under strain during a protracted period of misrule by weak Sultans.
And end up at the end of why the Ottoman Empire failed. It spent so much time trying to modernize, educate, and regulate it's warring tribes and religious factionalism that having to deal with wars bankrupted it near the end of the 19th century.
The Ottoman Empire spent as much time fighting itself as it did anyone else that it ended up politically and economically obsolete by the time World War I rolled around.
>>81296026
>China is doing very well.
For a very short time so far _and_ by basing the current regime's legitimacy on its ability to maintain economic stability. This doesn't absolve China of its past mistakes under its one party system nor does it ensure that this spell of relative calm is going to last. The problem with their approach is going to come to a head with a growing middle class that will get too large to politically suppress, especially when it is hundreds of millions of people vying for more political access that the Communist Party is unwilling to let go of.
>DPRK used to be a well developed nation with a good economy
[citation needed]
>>81294364
God Emperor watches over us from Valhalla since he needs to teach a thing or two to Odin. If LHL the cuck fucks up he will descend from Heaven
>>81296634
If British people had been willing to work in the textile and brick factories we wouldn't have had mass migration from South Asia.
Look at Japan. Japanese people are going extinct, very slowly. Developed countries either deal with mass immigration or deal with their own populations dying off.
>>81296637
That doesn't really matter though.
>>81292522
To be loved, care about your career.
To be hated, care about your country.
Democracy in a nutshell.
>>81292255
Great idea, let's get rid of democracy.
We'll get this instead.
>>81296680
>about how the only legitimate form of goverment should be one ruled by an (perfec) AI, designed to make only logical decisions. Kind like the singularity but without them trying to kill humans.
So if there was a perfect infallible dictator, that would be the best form of government? You don't say.
How would you create this AI? How would you ensure that it actually is perfect once created? How would you ensure that the biases of the creators weren't present? How would you handle giving it power, and how would you enact measures to allow for overriding its decisions when bugs/mistakes are made (because they would be)? How would you determine when these instances happened and ensure that the people responsible for determining when this happened don't announce false positives for their own gain?
>>81294586
Funny thing is our God Emperor based his method of governance with a complex mixture of Confunscianism, British Fascism and pragmatism.
>>81297033
Die painfully. Japan is not dying. Population decline is not a bad thing, it's the natural result of modernization. The only reason any of these kikes push for exponential population growth is to fund their unsustainable welfare schemes and keep GDP growing, because these kikes will kill people just to have more paper money to pass around.
Japan is a fucking model nation. Bitch about their debt and recession all you like, but the average person still lives a cushy first world life in a homogeneous and low crime country.
Western nations have no need for more people. It's nothing but an excuse to kill labor costs and spread our wealth more thinly among a bunch of shitskins.
>>81297033
>nations start wars with democratic nations, the nations they started the wars with are more warlike
wew lad
>>81296680
>ruled by an (perfec) AI, designed to make only logical decisions.
Fun Fact - We've had the technology for a airline to take off, fly and land by itself but people by and large are unwilling and uneasy to board a plane that doesn't have a human pilot.
AI will never work in a practicable or on a philosophical level (remember, a majority of slave owners were more capable at making better decisions than the slaves but that didn't make those decisions good). Even a ruling AI will prioritize its own needs to rule above those that it rules because it is required to have the tools necessary to carry out is programmed obligations to rule. This becomes most evident in situations where the "good of the many" outweighs the "good of the few."
>>81297755
>Even a ruling AI will prioritize its own needs to rule
All an AI is, is an optimization routine. It doesn't have to be, and shouldn't be, a human level intelligence. It can perform tasks that a human couldn't do without being egotistical.
>>81293160
It doesn't change at all at least here
You vote for the globalist puppet party
Or you vote for the second puppet party
If you live in the wrong geographic location (99%of the country) your vote is so irrelevant that they don't even have to count it to decide the winner
I would take a fuhrer over this any day
The key is to have a military made up of the people who supports the people and to keep people armed. That way the leader while having near absolute final say will also think twice before fucking over the people
>>81297911
>It can perform tasks that a human couldn't do without being egotistical.
And that makes it a better decision maker than people? Of course this overlooks the egotism of the person or persons who programmed the AI.
>>81297440
When you create the perfect AI, none of the things you're saying will be an issue. Forget about any crap hollywood might be trying to feed you, super AI won't have daddy issues or will look up at their creators as role models.
Its either right or wrong, ones and zeroes. And she will go through thousands upon thousands of variables faster than any goverment in earth.
The problem is if she decides to kill everybody or not. But this is paranoia, nobody knows that for sure, the perfect machine will be devoid of emotions, but if you tell her just to do whats best for the country and it's people, she will do whats best for the country and its people period.
You can always just pull the fucking plug, nobody will give nuclear codes for a beta.
>>81292255
should probably just automate politics also
though i assume the AI would have some harsh solutions for us, and I might even be the first to be gassed
i'm alright with that though if it creates future utopia
>>81292522
Nice meme.
Representative Democracy is the problem.
Democracy works just fine in Switzerland, most legislation is done via direct, legally binding referendum and since they are so common, only the most politically interested citizens actually bother to vote in them. This makes it purely democratic, only citizens who care make decisions, the media cannot be bothered to rile people up and manipulate them for every single law.
The only reason you complain about democracy is precisely because "the betters" aren't actually doing it properly. They are the problem.
>>81294943
>monocultural
Actually they are pretty different. There are 4 different language areas in that one tiny area
The key is actually the cantons ("provinces or states" if you will) and how much autonomy they get over their own affairs even to the point that some places are Athens style everyone gathers and decides whereas some places only vote for a leader. Cantons are more or less monocultural though
The federal government generally doesn't fuck around with the cantons
Plus unlike America where you just have the "right" to a gun in Switzerland it is not only a right but a responsibility for one to own a firearm and to go through proper military training. If even the axis didn't try to fuck with the Swiss you definitely know the government will think long and hard about taking any rights because they don't have a bunch of edgy drunk hicks with guns and "muh militia" to worry over they have the whole population literally being the military to worry about
>>81298005
I don't think you know what you're talking about, chap. Programming doesn't work like that at all.
There is no egotism involved, nor emotions, and thats why it makes better than all the forms of goverment we have now.
You just have to write the perfect algorithm and hope that the Roko's basilisk is not true. The machine, then, will write itself.
>>81296622
The problem with the EU was non European cultures being imported
>>81293302
Switzerland is a small rich relatively independent country which doesn'play a key role in global power politics and is located in a peaceful region. I'm sure these are the prerequisites.
What is needed is systemic reform, constitutional standards, taking money out of politics is a start.
Donald Trump is a prime example of how this can be a roaring success.
>>81298843
>Programming doesn't work like that at all.
I'm sorry but perhaps I was too veiled in my point. I wasn't inferring that the programs would include egotism in the AI's programming but that the programmer's egotism will prevent them from creating a "perfect AI." One that isn't going to favor the programmers and the loved ones/preferred ones of the programmers if not outright keeping a backdoor to "influence" the AI's decisions.
We need to eradicate propagandist biases in the media, provide informed political platforms that don't have special interest attached, the list goes on. Education is the key to political justice.
>>81292255
THE SOLUTION BEGINS WITH PIC RELATED:
The (((social scientists))) brought the world to the brink of chaos but were stopped by the redpilled.
>>81299030
Your doubts are legit, sorry.
Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say, the "perfect AI" won't allow it to be influenced by anyone, you see, because it would not have any backdoor at all, and thats why people go nuts over this.
You either kill it while it is still young, or you take a leap of faith. And we take a leap of faith every four years, so I don't know what is worse.
But if influence is what you worried about, don't be. What you should be worried about (as I am and everybody I work with) is if it decides that it's time to kill everybody.
But see, if someday, a thing like that happens (it wont), the transition from democracy to an AIcracy would be a smooth one. Kind like a beta, the machine would start as a public counselor and your leader always have the option to listen to it or not. If all goes well, the people itself will choose it as their eternal leader.
>>81292522
It all depends on the definition of what is good for the country.
To me, the point of democracy is not to give people what they need. Give them what they want.
>>81299650
And if the relative majority people want retarded things like caliphates and communism, everybody should get fucked, then?
I'm talking, dooming a whole country because 51% of 1 billion people are too lazy and see the government as papa and mommy.
Fuck democracy.
>>81299572
>you take a leap of faith
I refer you back to the above part about "airplanes can takeoff, fly, and land themselves. . ."
>happens (it wont)
Yeah, I agree with you that it won't happen.
>>81298076
>When you create the perfect AI, none of the things you're saying will be an issue.
How do you reach that point?
This send to a bit of a tautology.
>>81292255
Democracy is an imperfect and at times infuriating system of government. It is also the best we've got. It's the only one where we can ensure one half of the population doesn't try to kill the other every 20 or so years.
>>81300376
>This send to a
*this seems to be
>>81299572
>the "perfect AI" won't allow it to be influenced by anyone, you see, because it would not have any backdoor at all, and thats why people go nuts over this.
Yeah, it would be perfect. What if we had a perfect benevolent genius dictator that would always sire clones of himself, we could just have them be rulers forever, that would work pretty well too, right?
Your point is useless, because of course a perfect ruling AI would be perfect, that's literally what it is by definition. It doesn't tell us anything we don't already know.
>I don't think you know what you're talking about, chap. Programming doesn't work like that at all.
>Forget about any crap hollywood might be trying to feed you, super AI won't have daddy issues or will look up at their creators as role models.
>my bachelor on CS
You're one of these faggots.
Next you're going to start asking why we haven't moved all crop production indoors to be managed by bots and grown with artificial light.
>>81300226
Your airplane argument doesn't really apply to this. It's like saying that you don't want a new fridge because your toaster exploded.
And you're more likely to die in your car (which is devoid of any AI) than on an airplane, there is also that. Things get blown out of proportions when it comes to this and it is no big secret, you can google that.
I think it will never happen because we will never be able to create an AI like that. But if we do, common folk will never really comprehend it, and will deny it as the devil, and thats when my egotism start talking.
Kind like the superman and the last man. People claim that they want a moral, benevolent, smart leader that does not think about money, you give it to them and they reject it just because it is not shaped like an human and because pop culture told them that it might destroy the whole world based on nothing, then fuck it.
Let them all burn. Let terrorists blow up everything, let old man conspire against the whole world and make the young their new slaves.
>>81301373
>It's like saying that you don't want a new fridge because your toaster exploded.
I don't see how that analogy applies. The point was about people not trusting a machine to take the helm of a plane let along a nation. In the plane analogy nothing is broken unlike the "exploded toaster." Your analogy is not apt.
>>81300376
It because it is, do you want me to elaborate on that? Singularity.
>>81301139
>because of course a perfect ruling AI would be perfect, that's literally what it is by definition. It doesn't tell us anything we don't already know
Wow, glad to know you can read. I wasn't trying to say anything you don't know, lad. I just said that this was the kind of goverment that I want.
Sorry if CSfags in your country treats you like the missing link, I don't like pretentious silicon nerds with god complex too.
>>81298609
>Plus unlike America where you just have the "right" to a gun in Switzerland it is not only a right but a responsibility for one to own a firearm and to go through proper military training.
This is an interesting point.
I'm vehemently anti-gun but I might be prepared to support something like this. I recognize the argument about protecting from invasion and tyranny, I just don't think it outweighs the social cost in terms of crime and murder.
If being a gun owner meant you needed to go through military training and be a member of a local militia then I'd support a right to keep a military weapon and ammo in the house.
>Democracy is inherently wrong because dumb people are allowed to vote
>People who have an education are mostly left-wing
>>81301718
Oh, my bad. I thought you are talking about plane crashes.
Still, I don't think it applies anyway.
I wouldn't be comfortable on an airplane without a pilot too, and it has nothing to do with trust, just irrational fear. Maybe immediate danger?
The same thing don't apply when it comes to nations. I don't give a fuck about who is in office.
>>81298609
The other thing is that even though cantons may have a different language they are still all white Swiss with great commonalities. They do not have totally fundamental disagreements on basic cultural aspects like Muslims and Europeans.
>>81302459
>I don't give a fuck about who is in office.
Perhaps you are not the best source of information or rational conclusions when it comes to governments or what does or doesn't apply to them then.
>>81302629
As long as it is good for the people or the country, I don't care if it is a robot or an human, that's what I meant. Forgot to put that on the hurry to reply.
I don't see that happening with democracy, they're turning my country into a communist shithole with democracy.
>>81302293
education doesnt mean smart
>>81292522
>People need to be ruled by their betters
The problem is "the betters" set up for their kids to succeed them, regardless of whether they have the necessary qualities or not, and then they shit the bed
>>81302818
>As long as it is good for the people or the country
Everyone claims *something* is good for the country and often they are right but is it better than another choice or THE other choice? There is nothing inherently better about having an AI or a human leading a country because they both from human experiences and backgrounds. Instead of parents it's programmers in the case of the AI. It is even arguably that an AI is less of a good choice as it only has one source of information, its owners unlike people who develop their own identities, their own ideologies, and their own choices based upon experiences with dozens if not hundreds or thousands of people who helped form a policy decision.
>>81292255
I talk about abolishing it and establishing Imperialist Nationalism every fucking day here.
>>81301876
>Singularity.
I understand that, but it's nebulous as hell when anything will happen. It's been 20 years away for the last 50 years.
>Wow...want.
Well carry on then. I still don't think it's a very useful suggestion.
>Sorry if CSfags in your country ...
I'm a csfag.
The people I'm talking about are the csfags that dunning-kruger their way into thinking they know everything about everything. CS are particularly prone to this because the large majority of even intelligent people don't know anything about coding, but most intelligent people know a little bit about a wide variety of more concrete things, so when you're a coder thinking you're a genius among geniuses is an easy mental trap to fall into, particularly among young csfags. Even people that code in shit languages like basic fall into it.
