There is only ONE, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
That is the Orthodox Church, founded by Christ, which the gates of hell shall not prevail against.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0J2eDPIjU
This is an Orthodox pastebin that addresses the questions of Catholics and atheists and Muslims and Jews and Protestants and liberals, along with a reading list that provides links: http://pastebin.com/bN1ujq2x
Praise to Kek.
>>81244106
really makes you stink
>The holiest Apostolic Church
Fuck off
There is no denomination that hasn't been tainted
>>81246003
The Orthodox Church is not a denomination of the Church, it is the Church.
"Denominations", as they are called, are hetrodoxy.
>>81244106
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A6BfyhFSVQ
Luke 1:46-55
>>81248321
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4w11kN1lsQ
>>81248763
You're on
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT4hXR5UiVE
>>81244106
There's an Eastern Orthodox Church down the street. Considering visiting. Can you give me a bit more basic views? I literally have no clue about them aside from the traditional approach but I sure as hell am not joining any of the 39 Baptist churches around here.
Will they welcome a former Presbyterian?
>>81249298
Ours priests sound like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUEZR0gj8vM
>>81249654
The entire time?
>>81249298
We're basically like Catholics used to be like before Vatican II
The Church is the Supreme and Absolute authority in interpreting and disseminating scripture
>>81249801
Most of the time absolutely everting is sung
Spoken word is just for the occasional "Biblical words of advice" usually at the end of the service
>>81244106
Jesus started no church. The bible explicitly states that jesus said where two or more believers gather there also is the lord. Jesus was all about taking the power away from the synagogues. Why the fuck would he build new ones?
God exists. But religion is evil.
>>81249880
You're not doing a good job telling me about your church.
What's a typical service like? Are there sermons like in most Protestant Churches?
>>81250172
everything*
>>81249298
We're the Church Christ founded, we welcome all who are sincere
Our basic views that distinguish us from Protestants include veneration of saints, belief that communion is a real physical communion with Christ, the importance of confession, and several other things.
We are distinguished from Catholics in not seeing Peter's chair as the rock (rather Peter himself), in believing fasting to be very important, and believing you understand God through mystical experience of him as opposed to rational inquiry, along with several other things.
Service-wise, we are extremely traditional, our music generally has no instruments or polyphony, and our artwork is ancient or at least Medieval.
>>81250172
What are they singing exactly? Scripture?
>>81250217
It's sung. Everything
It's basically Medieval to the core in that sense (which is pretty based in my opinion)
>>81244106
What made you drop tripfag?
But just for you to know going to fap to the picture in your post, would've never even thought about doing such a thing - but I just wanted you to know that it is your fault.
>>81250217
There are sermons, we call them homilies. They typically occupy a small portion of the service though. Most of the service is worship and prayer to God, with incense (believe in praying with all five senses) and hymns all that.
Here is what a service sounds like (Coptic rite): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9zP59_98s8
>>81250357
Scripture, praises, the usual
You won't catch an Orthodox priest using plain spoken word unless it's at the end of the Service and he wants to conclude it with some advice
PRAY THE ROSARY
Orthofags please post lectures, sermons about orthodoxy.
>>81244106
Also you must be literally retarded to believe such "paranormal" claims in the video.
Demons physically manifesting as mythological beings, paranormal events and such.
Even Buddhism has less magic bullshit in it.
And in eastern orthodoxy literally all the magic and paranormal stuff happen to old senile people in caves or desert after decades of living alone.
And usually people just believe the stories never seek the truth.
>>81250357
No, it's called Liturgy. There are two readings from Scripture in the service, but most of the Liturgy is stuff like hymns and praises and asking for things, although Scriptural quotes and allusions are peppered throughout.
Here is Liturgy (Greek Rite): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYg5D6gpe98
>>81250856
*înclină fedora*
>>81250558
What in the fuck.....
Why can't there just be a normal fucking sect of Christianity where you just learn about scripture?
Ever single Church has some silly fucking gimmick.
With the non-denominations it's being hip! and modern!
With most Methodist and Baptists it's the fucking SERIES of scriptures. Get ready to spend weeks dissecting a part of the Bible with autistic detail!
With the Catholics its APPEASEMENT the mini-series.
I don't even know why I bother. I'm just going to go back to reading my Bible.
>>81250835
this, tell us more.
I am currently going to an evangelist Church but am dissatisfied. The people there are backwards, mostly read the Old Testament as the literal word of God despite its conflicts with the Word of Christ and believe that God talks to them through voices in their heads. I kid you not.
>>81244106
>orthodox church was founded by Jesus
>started during medieval times, most tradition is based in medieval services
Catholics have way more of a claim to being the church founded by Jesus, and even their claim is somewhat poor (Peter never was officially affiliated with the Christians in Rome).
>>81251141
Suit yourself m8
>>81250989
Yea I'm sure you beleive all autists on Christian forums claiming to have a personal relation with saints and seeing them vividly in visions 'n shit.
Literally angels coming down and doing paranormal shit that is never observed.
Remember how Byzantines claimed that the door at Hagia Sophia was made from the remains of Noah Arch.
Or that his axe, alongside the baskets Jesus feed people with were buried down at the column Constantine made.
There are lots of retarded, purely invented stories from Byzantines time that orthodox people still hang to.
There are orthodox saints that were either kings or generals and murdered tens of thousands of people.
>>81250835
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mEcCTo9r9M
>>81251685
I'm sure that hobbo that lives in mountains, secluded from society and let go of life problems just to waste time - is suited to explain others what Christ meant.
>>81244106
>schismatics acting like it
seek a priest, confess, come into the Holy Mother Church, we will receive you well
>>81251141
Because Liturgy is about WORSHIP. It's not just about listening to someone read.
Orthodox convert in Texas checking in.
cliffs...
-You'll walk in and be amazed at the beauty of the church, you will never have witnessed anything of the sort in your life
-The service will sound like a musical at first
-Services can be in different languages since the Orthodox churches in the West are originally missions from Eastern European countries who continue to worship in their native language
-There are many rituals that you won't understand at first
-lots of making the sign of the cross
-The liturgy (service) is pretty much the same EVERY Sunday at EVERY parish with a few minor changes such as the homily given by the priest. That's the beauty of the church
-A lot of fasting throughout the year
-Almost every church has a bookstore with books written by the Saints, monks, and other stories that were written over a thousand years before any of the Protestant crap even started
>which the gates of hell shall not prevail against.
Your current pope seems to prove the opposite.
>>81251227
There's a pastebin in the OP
>>81251858
*înclină și mai tare fedora*
Martyress Drosida possibly Traian emperor daughter ( Byzantines claim )
Before death she applied a form of self-baptism.. ( 100% non dogmatic ) and she died by suicide.
She's considered a saint.
>>81252135
Orthodox aren't Roman Catholics, you silly goose. We're not in communion with Francis
26th of June, 2016
On immigration
>Such an important aspect of modern life like mass migration is not left unattended. Unlike the Catholic approach that unduly favors migrants, particularly in Europe, the Orthodox notices the negative nature of the process, as well as the fact that it leads to confrontation of different identities and value systems. In addition, the Orthodox Church propose to look at the roots of this phenomenon. The reason for the migration is the liberal, hedonistic ideology bleeding the peoples of Europe and the interests of the capitalist elite, who need a cheap and disenfranchised workforce:
>Attempts by indigenous people of the rich countries to stop the migration flow are futile, because come in conflict with greed of their own elites who are interested in the low-wage workforce.
On usury
> The only alternative to the global fictitious liberal economy can only be a real Christian economy.
>Business expectations in lending, often ghostly becomes more profitable than the production of tangible goods. In this regard, it must be remembered about the moral ambiguity of the situation, when money is "make" new money without the application of human labor. Declaring credit sphere to be the main engine of the economy, its predominance over the real economic sector comes into conflict with the moral principles, reveled by God condemning usury.
>>81252197
>autism intensifies.
At least I'm not an heretic cuck like you who claims to read the bible often and believe in no Church - because he's a lone wolf in this game.
>>81252221
Envious much?
>>81244106
"THE CHURCH" IS A SEMITIC PRIMITIVE RELIGION
"THE CHURCH" DESTROYED TRADITIONAL EUROPEAN PRACTICES OF WORSHIP
"THE CHURCH" TELLS YOU TO BE A FUCKING KEK. TURN THE OTHER CHEEK. LOVE WHORES
"THE CHURCH" IS A HAVEN FOR HOMOSEXUALS WHO MOLEST THE SONS YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO PROTECT
BURN THE CHURCHES
HAIL ODIN
DEUS VULT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAetDRkTcxo
come home white man
>>81252221
Martyrs don't need an official baptism, and never have (provided they can't attain one for practical reasons). Their death as a martyr is considered a "baptism of blood".
>>81252353
At least I believe in the Bible..
>>81252473
Get a life you're literally only every time I check /pol/
be it 3 am 6 am - any time during day, you're online.
What are you even doing in UK, being a vegetable? Stealing copper - but that's improbable it would imply movement, which you clearly don't do.
>>81252601
Show me where in bible Jesus said that. Not what some crazy bearded hobbo told you after he convinced you 12 legions of angels showed to him in a vision last night.
>>81252679
You have to be online at least as much as I am to notice it
Filioque a shit!
OG Nicene Creed 4 life
>>81252601
+ it's ironical there are barely any married saints in orthodox calendar.
Just mountain hobbos that are sanctified by other mountain hobbos.
And the ones that were married had no kids.
>>81252926
I spent few hours till late with friends - until cops fucked our day up and then I couldn't sleep after finding what happened in Turkey.
And pretty much a similar story other times, I barely spend any time here.
>>81252967
>+ it's ironical there are barely any married saints in orthodox calendar.
Everyone in the old orders (othro, catholic) were fags. Most still are. Fuck them
>>81250624
>ROSARY
You mean Greek prayer beads?
Fucking Romans stealing everything from us.
Almost as bad as the Turks.
>>81252477
tfw like the concept of paganism but realize it's just another religion and probably doesn't even resemble the original belief system
>>81253092
>I spent few hours till late with friends - until cops fucked our day up
You must have done something really bad
>>81244106
>provided Q&A for atheists
>did not show existence of the god
Sure this Jesus cunt might have existed, who gives a shit, provide me evidence of the God existing your prehistoric cunt
>>81252477
>>81253164
Catholicism has much of the pagan wisdom without the stupid shit like the wicker man and pissing on the doorstep to keep the evil spirits away
>>81253330
Literally nothing, cops are retards - this country suck. They even claimed they saw us stuff alcohol in car because they were approaching, and it's funny since not only that there was no alcohol - none of us drinks, just drugs.
I'm an Arian, I don't believe many occurrences of God in the Old Testament to be God the Almighty Father, I think the New Testament has been corrupted and that the many of the miracles attributed to Christ in the Gospel didn't really happen and are related to an ancient practice of attributing many supernatural miracles to "special" men (and thus God must be told to do the MOST miracles). I believe Christians should think for themselves, that heresy doesn't really exist because many truths have been tainted or corrupted.
But I believe Jesus was the Son of God, that His Word is the only path to salvation and reconnection with God in Heaven, and that He was resurrected in some form three days after death. I believe we should be most concerned about living out the Word of Christ and not about silly distinctions and details that we will never prove either way in our worldly lives.
I am most concerned about worshiping God in a pleasant manner for both His Glory and as a reminder to myself of His greatness, and meeting like minded people.
Where do I belong /pol/?
>>81253574
Drugs are bad for you mate
Your relativistic lack of principles is making you seek an escapist hedonistic lifestyle as replacement
You'll always be addicted to something until you finally mature out of your atheism
>>81244106
>Catholic
nice meme
>>81244106
cant we all get along?, join as brothers, rise as one and fight the real enemy...the heretic protestants and anglicans plus the other meme-tier forms of "christianity"
>>81253975
No drugs are actually good - considering we are bio machines and it's not purely magic that occurs in our head, chemical interactions in our brain yield real results.
Such as bliss from cannabis, pure joy from MDMA, euphoria and sensation of oneness from LSD.
You're dumb if you thing drugs are used to fill anything, there are such cases no doubt - the main reason we use them is to add more to mundane experience, to enhance the field of experiences we went trough.
You have that amazing brain, use it or lose it.
I'm sharing hedonistic principles, I'm detached from society standards - I just blend in sine it's the rational thing to do.
I do not prefer carnal pleasures, over intellectual satisfactions.
>your atheism
Nowhere I said I was atheist, you're just making shit up.
Also I think you have to read about dopamine, you can be addicted to anything - this is the human machine.
Your for example - you're addicted from reading the bible, dopamine conditions that, not some spiritual force.
>>81244106
> which the gates of hell shall not prevail against.
You realize this means Peter will besiege hell, yes? It does not mean Peter will be fruitlessly hunted by a metaphorical fortification across plains and steppes.
>>81254778
>the real enemy
>protestants and anglicans
>not muslims
I'm watching this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvcvLykW5Jk
>>81254787
Is the physical world all that there is?
>>81255196
>>81255196
Jesus said that you have an soul that survives post biological death. And that there's a full - life a complete existence in soul once it breaks from the chains of the body-machine.
>>81255196
>>81254787
Zi-mi si in romana daca vrei
>>81255033
first we have to purge our own faith of the heretics, just then we will have the moral resolve to take on the mohamedians, the holy crusade will be glorious then, we shall not share the holy land with the lap dogs of the Jews
>>81255558
What do you believe?
>>81244106
What do you think about Jews finding this religion as blasphemy?
>>81244106
>http://pastebin.com/bN1ujq2x
My question is not answered there.
Early Christianity as described by the Bible is identical to what we would, today, call an end of the world cult.
1. Claims world is ending imminently (1 John 2:18, Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:28, Matthew 24:34)
2. Wants you to sell or give away your belongings ( Luke 14:33, Matthew 19:21, Luke 18:22)
3. Wants you to cut off family who interfere, and leave your home/job to follow him (Matt. 10:35-37, Luke 14:26, Matthew 19:29)
4. Unverifiable reward if you believe (Heaven, i.e. the carrot)
5. Unverifiable punishment if you disbelieve (Hell, i.e. the stick)
6. Sabotages the critical thinking faculties you might otherwise use to remove it (Proverbs 3:5, 2 Corinthians 5:7, Proverbs 14:12, Proverbs 28:26)
7. Invisible trickster character who fabricates apparent evidence to the contrary in order to lead you astray from the true path
8. Targets children and the emotionally/financially vulnerable for recruitment (sunday schools, youth group, teacher led prayer, prison ministries, third world missions)
Presumably you recognize this is how Islam and Mormonism began, founded by and centered around Muhammad and Joseph Smith, respectively.
But Muslims cannot see that from the inside. It is only obvious to you because you're not a Muslim. Likewise with Mormons and Mormonism. You are in the same situation they are but can't see that from within Catholicism as it is deliberately designed to prevent that realization.
>"But he performed miracles!"
Only according to the Bible. They are not recorded in any other text from that period. Muhammad also performed many purported miracles according to the Qur'an, but you recognize this does not prove Islam is true.
>"But Christ fulfilled the messianic prophesies of the Torah!"
No he didn't. This is something you were led to believe, but never investigated yourself: http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html
>>81255724
Nothing really.
I just know that aprox 1980 years ago, Jesus walked earth, had some apostles - but mainly one event occurred that shacked humanity - He physically rose from the dead.
What's there left to say? Just meditate on that.... while everyone is having theories, and interpretations. That event genuinely occurred - He rose from death.
He told Apostles that there's going to be this Holy Spirit to aid them - and there was and they left us the eyewitness in text for all generations to know the words of that person which rose from the dead...
The church genuinely left by Him, I agree that there are services that must come trough priest and there must be order maintained.
But all the mysticism, the bonus structures, the earthly glory - just unnecessary things that no one asked Him if it's ok.
People went so retarded after the events to interpret the Holy Spirit as something which impersonally and mechanically can be summoned. And lots of retarded shit I bet you're well aware of.
The canons themselves are good - but very flexible.
>>81255558
I have to sleep mate, but before you go to sleep bookmark this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKX-QtEo2fI
Ai grija de tine.
>>81255558
First problem with that: Why haven't scientists detected the soul?
>"Because they are using material instruments. The soul is immaterial."
Oh okay, but then if the material and immaterial are noninteractive, how does the soul interact with the brain/body in such a way as to control it?
Second problem:
...If memories are stored as patterns of neuronal connections
http://www.livescience.com/32798-how-are-memories-stored-in-the-brain.html
...And emotions are neurochemical reactions
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-05/aps-lai053105.php
...and personality, i.e. how you react differently from another person to the same thing because of different past experiences, is neurological
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/100622142601.htm
Then what does the soul do? Or, if neuroscience is wrong about everything, and the soul does all of the things above, then what do we need brains for? If our soul includes none of what makes us distinctly who we are, how can it be said that anybody goes to an afterlife?
>>81256541
I have to confess - Nu eram serios cu primele remarci, si sunt rautacios intentionat sa agit oamenii. In special pe Constantine - care ma scoate din sarite - iubesc ortodoxia, dar aia autentica ca stil de viata, nu toate bizantismele astea absurde.
>>81244106
>>81244106
>There is only ONE, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Nah
“The impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true . . . The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Volume 14, page 299.
“There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 295.
In a letter dated June 29, 2008, to presidents of Catholic bishops’ conferences, the Vatican stated: “In recent years the practice has crept in of pronouncing the God of Israel’s proper name.” The letter gives this pointed direction: “The name of God . . . is neither to be used or pronounced"
(Jeremiah 23:27) They are thinking of making my people forget my name by means of their dreams that they keep relating each one to the other, just as their fathers forgot my name by means of Ba′al.
1 Tim 4:2,3 - by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; 3forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.
It's kind of hard to take you seriously about that when your own sources disagree with you.
>>81256718
Soul doesn't physically exist - it's just the will of God manifested.
Rather soul itself is not purely a Christian concept - rather adopted from paganism.
You in your structure, you're the soul with brain and everything - if you continue to exist post death - ti's not because anything in your survive rather, that's the power of God and the domain of his expressed omnipotence without bounds and laws.
This is the main impression you get from reading the gospels and epistles, and soul itself is not described and it's presented mostly as the superior part of psyche.
>>81256462
It's good that you believe in God mate
Take it easy on the scientism and the drugs
And on the pride. Pride is the worst sin of all
Take care!
>>81257018
>You in your structure, you're the soul with brain and everything - if you continue to exist post death - ti's not because anything in your survive rather, that's the power of God and the domain of his expressed omnipotence without bounds and laws.
Why can't we detect this process happening at death?
>>81256769
A, scuze. Credeam ca esti ateu. E greu sa-ti dai seama din prima
Hai sa mergem la somn ca nu-i bine cu noptile albe
>>81257193
There is no process, no change - your body dies - your synapses slowly decompose.
If there's continuation - it goes as a miracle from God not a given fundamental mechanism of how we work.
Imagine as what makes you now - what generates the idea of you - it's interactions from complex organic matter. When the matter is damaged or dead - you're no longer generated in the form God organized.
In death that form is persevered but no longer comes from the body - rather comes from the will of God for you to exist - you as the person.
Main thing is that the biological body will be restored and you will continue to be generated by matter again after second coming of Christ.
>>81257414
Literalmente nu pot sa dorm, mi-e frica sa nu ma trezesc intr-o lume si mai fututa.
Dar somn usor.
>>81256718
I like to think that the soul is like numbers.
When you have an arrangement of things like, say, coins on a table, you can say that there are "seven coins" on the table.
When you take the coins from the table and scatter them, the "coin" part of the existance is gone. But "seven" is not. "Seven" wasn't created or destroyed. It was always there and was briefly given a physical form within the universe by an arrangement of things. Numbers are strange because they don't seem to be real. Yet you can study them and make them behave in predictable ways. They aren't subject to decay or entropy because they don't exist in the universe, but they do have a reality to them.
The existance of numbers prove that there are things out there that aren't part of the universe, but exist anyway.
The soul is like that because it isn't part of the physical universe. It's only given a representation from a physical arrangement of brain matter and chemicals.
Our qualia feels very real, yet apart from the universe. Just like numberss
>>81257913
Lumea e fututa. Dar tu nu fi ca lumea
Ne-auzim
The one thing i really like about orthodoxy is how they don't try to bullshit their way through reason and use logic to justify believing in fairy tales like the catholics do.
Reason and faith both go their independent ways instead of being in constant confrontation, which ultimately is bringing the fall of religiousness in the west.
>>81258660
1 THESSALONIANS 5:23:
May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely. May your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
psyhè = spirit
pneuma = soul
nóos = mind, speaking, intelligence, rationality ( superior part of pneuma and the detail of psyhè )
all three in opossition with sárx ( flesh or better said matter ) and soma ( body ) the organized form of sárx
So in biblical terms - soul is the base of effects the vita principle, spirit being the superior aspect, which is able to put in contact the Holy Spirit and become its abode.
^ more used in Rm 1 9
Pneuma is the superior part of psyhè
So indeed we talk about the mind generating faculties - which together form the soul, so the soul is the product of some faculties - and that soul has a superior part which is the spiritual key.
QUI EX PATRE FILIOQUE PROCEDIT.
>>81257809
>If there's continuation - it goes as a miracle from God not a given fundamental mechanism of how we work.
Then there is a process. You just said there is no process a moment ago.
> it's interactions from complex organic matter. When the matter is damaged or dead - you're no longer generated in the form God organized.
God did not organize that. I formed in my mother's womb. We already know how that process works and it isn't supernatural.
>In death that form is persevered but no longer comes from the body - rather comes from the will of God for you to exist - you as the person.
There is no evidence for this.
>Main thing is that the biological body will be restored and you will continue to be generated by matter again after second coming of Christ.
No it won't. Christ was a cult leader, like Muhammad and Joseph Smith. That is why he did not return within the timeframe he indicated many times in scripture.
While he does stipulate that nobody can know the day or the hour (i.e. with precision) that does not stop him from stating in several places that his return would occur while some alive then had not yet died of old age, and before his followers had finished fleeing through all the towns of Israel.
Everywhere it is spoken of, it is in immediate terms, with urges not to go on living as if there is a future. Paul's advice not to marry for instance, and Jesus' statement in John that the antichrists he predicted would arrive to herald the end times were already among them.
>>81259814
When I sad effects - I meant the headquarters of affections, of emotions as Paul used it but Mark also used it the word the describe the subject of mental states. 14, 34
He said to them, “My soul is extremely sorrowful, even to death. Stay here, and keep
watch.”
So psyhè is the soul tl;dr which Peter used to describe the whole personality: 1 Peter 1, 22; 2, 1
It is as I tried to describe it to this guy >>81257809
God made our bodies very complex so that they produce this psyhè which is in his image.
>>81258660
>The soul is like that because it isn't part of the physical universe. It's only given a representation from a physical arrangement of brain matter and chemicals.
But any arrangement of matter is part of the physical universe.
>The existance of numbers prove that there are things out there that aren't part of the universe, but exist anyway.
As patterns of neuronal connections in our brains.
>>81260548
It's not a process since it's not material and has nothing to do with this world.
Get it?
You can't call something which doesn't exist and couldn't exist in this world a process.
Literally what I told you is based on how Apostles used to describe the soul and what words they used it - take it or leave it.
>>81260743
>It's not a process since it's not material and has nothing to do with this world.
How do you know it exists then? Your brain is material. Your senses are material. For humans to learn something exists, it has to interact with their senses/brain.
>Literally what I told you is based on how Apostles used to describe the soul and what words they used it - take it or leave it.
Whether or not I believe you, the claim remains unsupported by any evidence.
>>81260548
>No it won't.
You're free to believe what you want.
Jesus Christ just literally rose from the dead, a dead man waked full of life like before death - and in the set of teachings he left - the ressurection is mentioned and described.
Even if you want to do compared religion there's a huuuuuuge difference between Muhhamed, Jospeh Smith and Jesus.
>>81260961
We only know of anything that's beyond material trough what Jesus said, no other way. And what His apostles comprehended trough Holy Spirit - which is divine presence in matter.
There is room for creative subjective opinions - but truth is everything is just revelation from God ( Jesus ).
>Excluding other believes of Christ
>Not Satan
Mmmmmmm
>>81260994
>Jesus Christ just literally rose from the dead, a dead man waked full of life like before death - and in the set of teachings he left - the ressurection is mentioned and described.
Only according to the Bible, a book written by his followers to convert people.
According to the Qur'an, Muhammad once split the Moon in half by pointing at it, then rejoined the halves.
>Even if you want to do compared religion there's a huuuuuuge difference between Muhhamed, Jospeh Smith and Jesus.
Yeah, Mormonism was recent enough that we have surviving contemporary accounts from non-Mormons about what Joseph Smith was actually like. Christianity is old enough that no contemporary non-Christians accounts exist of what Jesus was like.
>>81261207
>We only know of anything that's beyond material trough what Jesus said, no other way.
So, the same way we know about Xenu and body Thetans, through L. Ron Hubbard.
>but truth is everything is just revelation from God ( Jesus ).
No, not according to Muslims. According to them, Muhammad's revelations take precedence.
>>81261403
No once forces you to believe, and If I would argument why I believe - it would be hard to be genuine - because my belief has some ages and the rationaments some of them that I went trough are long gone.
It wouls also mean I try to convert you - or force you in any way, faith comes trough hearing about it.
Check textual crtic and much more tools that enable a scientific research in the field, make your own journey - I was never a charismatic person so I would fail miserably.
Even If I have good ideas or arguments - I wouldn't be able to back them up my formulations which would persuade you so no point to do it.
You could take the gospels and prospect them for answers, they won't tell you a different story than the things as they are.
>>81261531
700 ad does no precede 70 ad, look into textual criticism. Theological aspects you'll only find them when lecturing scriptures.
Look into - political, social context. Look into the history of Judaism prior to Christianity and so on take a critical look at that.
>>81244106
Nothing holy about an illogical circlejerk.
>apostolic succession is valid because tradition establishes it is
>tradition is valid because church authorities affirm it to be
>church authorities are valid because of apostolic succession
Kek.
When I met my fiancee she was atheist and I was agnostic, I'm now Christian and she's a deist. I'm waiting to go to an Orthodox church until after we're married so it won't be as much of a problem, am I a piece of shit for doing that?
Leaving her is out of the question, if I hadn't met her I'd still be agnostic, incredibly anti-semitic, gender issues etc, and I'm convinced that the only way she'll ever come to Christ is through me. We live on opposite sides of the country and met on omegle, pulled each other out of a very dark period in our lives, it wasn't coincidence that we met. I love her too much.
Just a general question but why were miracles more common during ancient and medieval times compared to now where they are needed more than ever?
Note: Im not saying there are no miracles fullstop
>>81262360
>why were miracles more common during ancient and medieval times
You're assuming they were.
its true non-orthodox christians are a meme
>burning people alive (christ never said this)
>secret police torturers (also never mentioned by christ)
>vatican: 90% politics, 9% economy, 1% sexual frustration (eternal damnation is too good for you heretics I swear)
>crusading (ok this was based, first crusade was called by the orthodox church anyway so we cool, dont think christ preached crusading tho)
>confessions, money services, no monks, no monasteries, casual as fuck, more of a family experience than following the way of the christ
anyway christian values are kinda too soft, they tolerate weakness too much..
>>81262037
>700 ad does no precede 70 ad, look into textual criticism. Theological aspects you'll only find them when lecturing scriptures.
Muslims have an apologetic for that.
>Look into - political, social context. Look into the history of Judaism prior to Christianity and so on take a critical look at that.
I know a cult when I see it. You are in a cult.
>>81261869
>No once forces you to believe,
??? I never said that
>nd If I would argument why I believe - it would be hard to be genuine - because my belief has some ages and the rationaments some of them that I went trough are long gone.
Is this human language
>Check textual crtic and much more tools that enable a scientific research in the field, make your own journey - I was never a charismatic person so I would fail miserably.
If I were to tell you that there's a Nigerian prince who has promised to send me three million dollars if I first send him the $100,000 transfer fee, would you believe it's legit?
What if I told you I had lots of persuasive arguments for you to read? What if there were millions of people who believed in this prince, all patiently awaiting their fortune?
Even if it wasn't specifically a Nigerian prince but the structure of the scam remained the same you would be able to recognize it for what it is, yes?
>>81261531
Also you have to understand that there was no scientific method during Jesus revelation so take it in the context of that time.
I gave you an example of approach where I gave the base meaning for the Greek terms apostles used in their writings - take the original text and look into meaning of words, use a good dictionary.
If you see a word there - it might had a different meaning and use back then that the generally accepted one today.
>>81250383
Sounds lame. Why do you have to sing it? Is the good news of The Lord too boring for you people?
>>81262563
I would definitely now answer back to that email if I thought it was a scam and had my reasons - but you keep responding back to me.
And I'm not evangelizing or preaching - it consumes too much energy - you know for every decision making, attempt to remember things chemicals in brain are consumed and I was already sleep deprived so I'm not at my prime.
My personal belief is that Jesus physically rose from the dead, that's where it stops I did not tell you any theological system or tried to explain you how miracles work or what Godhood is.
And dude if you have energy it doesn't meant I have also the energy and capacity to respond to every lien back - as I explained I'm very tired, let's write less and keep it more simple please.
>christianity
>>81262563
You also claim to have the capacity to observe the underlying structure of a scam and apply to any aspect of life - that's not how the scientific method works. It's a hypothesis you propose and it can be easily argued why it fails.
Correlation does not imply causation.
>>81262451
>You're assuming they were.
Well based off of saints and their descriptions there certainly was. Likewise their mircales were things like healing by touch, talking/controlling animals, levitation ect. Meanwhile in modern times its things like "praying to a deceased nun" then later on having a remission in cancer treatment
>>81262891
there's literally nothing more boring and soulless than Protestant services, unless you're talking traditional Lutheran/Episcopal or something similar
>>81262453
Isnt that kind of hypocritical to rag on the Catholics for preaching practices that Catholics did which werent said by Christ whilst excusing your own church when it does it?
>>81263222
I don't why you'd believe anything manipulative dogmatists tell you - if you read the personal writings of catholic missionaries you come up against to many who blatantly compromise their beliefs in order to "convert" indigenous populations.
>>81263435
>
orthodox church never did this
if a 1st century christian entered a 21st orthodox church, he'd instantly recognize the sermon, where everything stands, where the doors are, the icons, everything
if a 1st century christian entered a non-orthodox church in 21st century he wouldnt know what the fuck is going on or who to are all these guys praying to
not even to mention blond jesus and all other heresies lmao
>>81263648
Well what sources would you consider valid when it comes to assessing miracles?
>>81263832
>if a 1st century christian entered a 21st orthodox church, he'd instantly recognize the sermon, where everything stands, where the doors are, the icons, everything
if a 1st century christian entered a non-orthodox church in 21st century he wouldnt know what the fuck is going on or who to are all these guys praying to
You still havent answered the question, why is it ok for your Church to do things that Christ did not say but not for Catholics?
>>81260570
So does the psyhè retain our physical form after death?
>>81263850
I don't know what happened, and I can't know what happened until God tells me what did or else I find some way to jettison myself into the past. I'm perfectly satisfied being honest and simply saying "maybe it happened, maybe it didn't". I tend to believe they didn't more than that they did, because I distrust anyone who utilizes dogma in trying to convince people, but how I feel is ultimately irrelevant to anything other than how I feel.
>>81264020
proofs needed man, i have no clue what are you talking about, fucking hell even sermons are held in old greek the same way jesus preached them when he got here
>>81264231
So really under your metric any religion is valid if the person feels that God is speaking to them?
>>81264503
Feelings are irrelevant, and I didn't say anything about validity at all. How someone feels is - to repeat - irrelevant to the truth. Either A or not-A. A proposition is either true or false. "Saints" either performed miracles or they didn't. Nothing whatsoever to do with validity - those are tautological truths.
>>81264453
Jesus never spoke of Crusades
Jesus never spoke of blessing weapons of War
Jesus never spoke about how doctrine is to be defined, interperated and distributed
Jesus never spoke on the energies essence distinction
Jesus never spoke on how the Church is to be administered if at all
Jesus never spoke about the selection criteria of church members laity and clergy
Jesus never spoke on the hypostatic union between his human and divine aspects
ect.
What will happen in Church if I go? Am I aloud to just sit in the corner and watch I don't know what to possibly expect.
What happens in a normal Orthodox Church service?
>>81264726
>Feelings are irrelevant, and I didn't say anything about validity at all. How someone feels is - to repeat - irrelevant to the truth. Either A or not-A. A proposition is either true or false. "Saints" either performed miracles or they didn't. Nothing whatsoever to do with validity - those are tautological truths.
You say they are irrelevant however they are the only criteria for truth you present in these matters.
I put my trust in Christ, not in a church. I may go to church, but religions that thrive on minor differences dividing, conquering, and fighting among each other don't interest me. It's my relationship with God through Jesus Christ that I consider important.
>>81265188
By "in these matters", I'm going to mean you assume Christianity and not the logical tautologies I just presented you, since those are necessarily a priori true.
And if that's what you mean - show me where I've presented a criteria of truth dependent on feels. Quote me please.
>>81265482
>By "in these matters", I'm going to mean you assume Christianity and not the logical tautologies I just presented you, since those are necessarily a priori true.
And if that's what you mean - show me where I've presented a criteria of truth dependent on feels. Quote me please.
"I can't know what happened until God tells me what did or else I find some way to jettison myself into the past"
>>81264029
It would have no form. We just know that there's existence for it after death until resurrection.
>>81265434
Just go to Church to confess and take Eucharist. The blood and body of God, services which Jesus left on earth.
Anything political or supplementary that church does is irrelevant and it just comes from humans - and it's safe to ignore it.
>>81265057
>all the church implications
orthodox church is a continuation of Pavle's church, the first church, founded by Isus (lmao who the hell calls the guy jeezaz?), all administration is done just because of geography, all priests still study the same old language
orthodox's never crusaded
patriarch can only bless a defensive war, read the bible
father, son, and holy spirit are three faces of God, seriously reading the bible would be a good idea if you wanna discuss it....
>>81265663
That criterion isn't feels. That criterion is what virtually anyone accepts - if I experience it I can generally be confident it's true or if God (actually does) reveal to me the truth, then obviously I simply have the truth. What about those is feels? Aussie are you OK?
>>81265886
the Bible NEVER even hints at the trinity
>>81266391
>>81265886
>patriarch can only bless a defensive war, read the bible
Nowhere in the bible it says what clergy can do - other than putting their hands over people and let them confess their sins then forgive them under authority of Holy Spirit.
Technically other functions clergy has is part of tradition.
Which was kept until 1054 universally then took two independent forms.
The orthodox Church which preserved the dogmatic aspects as they were until then.
And the Catholic church which just also kept everything the same with changing some aspects of it and further developing it over time. Also developing the tradition based on some apocrypha texts.
The way church interprets it - if the priests blesses a Church - it's not becuase Apsotles told the clergy they trained - that they could do that, rather it's explained like this: some priests / monks wrote the prayer after a life of service in Church - the prayer invites God to help, it\'s up to God if He listens and does anything.
It's not mechanical. The priest can bless a war, but it's up to God if He'll assist it and most likely He won't because we know what God preached as a human being ( Jesus ).
>>81266391
for fucks sake even the old jew scripture talks about holy trinity, why the fuck do you make a cross, with 3 fingers, in the name of the father, and son, and the holy spirit?
lmao you heretics are hilarious
>>81265976
>or if God (actually does) reveal to me the truth, then obviously I simply have the truth
how would you know if I am God and tell you the truth
>>81244106
I grew up in the Orthodox church...
Religion is all nice and shit, but you gotta understand that Jesus didn't intend to get crucified when he turned himself in... He expected to be released because there was no real evidence against him..
He was killed much too early. Had he been released like He expected, He would have built up more power and become much more militant as He gained power.
It's unfortunate He died so early... It really, unfortunately, turned the religion He pioneered into a much more "cucked" type of mentality, and makes followers very vulnerable to being abused and taken advantage of...
The religion is ok, just know that it breeds apathy and a lack of empowerment. I really wish a more militant version of Christianity was formed. The whole "turn the other cheek" and "love thy neighbor" stuff doesn't work when you're fighting someone who doesn't give a fuck about your non-violence and will only take advantage of it to empower themselves and conquer you....
>>81266743
Protestants don't do that. The Jewish scripture does not hint at that, and Jesus failed to fulfill virtually all messianic prophecies.
>>81265886
You miss the point none of those things are based on Jesus words. You grant your specific church the sole right to interperate them as an assumption yet fail to understand how that is no different than the Catholics.
The Church Fathers and the selection of them is *not* based on the words of Jesus.
>That criterion isn't feels. That criterion is what virtually anyone accepts - if I experience it I can generally be confident it's true or if God (actually does) reveal to me the truth, then obviously I simply have the truth.
Sorry buts extreemly feel heavy right there, appealing to the majority to define the truth and then acting as though you have the capacity to accurately know the difference between experiencing Divine Revelation, demonic interfereance or simply some purely material phenomena.
Your "general confidence" are no more than your feelings, and provide a critera that could confirm anything from islam to crystal magic
>>81265976
>>81266010
>talk
>not pray
U had uno trabajo faggoto
>>81253848
>>Where do I belong /pol/?
in hell
Just saying, if the Catholic Church isn't the one true religion, please explain why God keeps allowing Muslims to carry out terrorist attacks in Protestant countries.
>>81266937
The mentality is great, however you gotta step up when you realize that most other people don't have the same "love they neighbor" and "turn the other cheek" mentality that you do... and when that happens you have to be ready to fight to bring people back to that level...
Someone's gotta say enough is enough. If you don't love thy neighbor be ready to get put down cuz homie don't play that.
Nothing really makes the Eastern Orthodoxy any more "orthodox" than the others which have Apostolic Succession. There are three branches to the "true Church" : The Anglicans, the Catholics, and the Orthodox. All three have Apostolic Succession, tracing their bishops all the way back to the apostles. There is no reason to say "b-but WE are the one, true Church because we say so." when many churches say so. Instead, you must look at the way your church dates back to the Apostles. If there is no true connection to the Apostles, and Jesus, then your church is not true.
>>81267074
>if I watch something happen I feel fairly confident it happened
>feels
>if God *ACTUALLY* (as in factually as in truthfully) reveals the truth AKA: the facts AKA: the reality of what has occurred at any time state to someone, someone *actually* then knows the truth (a priori true)
>feels
Are you OK?
Appealing to the majority? I don't reference *anyone* other than myself or God. Aussie do you need help?
>>81267305
>France
>Protestant
Really?
>>81267305
Christianity was stopped short of its potential. Jesus died prematurely...
Mohammad preached a peaceful ideology when he had no power... when he gained power it became much more violent...
Jesus died when He didn't have a lot of power yet. Had he been released he would have gained more power and probably become more militant...
If Christianity had a chance to age I guarantee it would have become more violent towards people who felt they could take advantage of the peaceful, loving message Christianity spread.
>>81266391
Except it does few examples I remember now... there are many more:
Ephesians 2 18
Through him, we both have access to the Father in one Spirit.
1 CORINTHIANS 12 - 4 5 6
Now, there are various kinds of gifts, but it is the same Spirit. There are various kinds of service, and the same Lord. There are various kinds of works, but it is the same God who works all things in all.
Ephesians 1 6 12 14
praise of his glory 3 times 6 to Father, 12 to Son 14 to Holy Spirit.
Matthew 28, 19
Go therefore and make disciples of all
nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
>>81250835
>>81251227
Go on ancientfaith.com and look up the Fr. Thomas Hopko podcasts
>>81266743
The cross you do with fingers has nothing to do with scriptures, actually Christians for centuries never done that gesture.
In old testament- especially Pentateuch Trinity is implied but not obvious.
Knowledge about trinity came as revelation from Jesus himself, he introduced the concept if you want - He wanted us to know that God is in eternity three Persons.
>>81267688
those aren't Jewish scripture
>>81266937
Okay.
>look at any of the SEVEN major Crusades.
>Thirty Years' War.
Perhaps look at any of the battles in the Old Testament.
Matthew 10:34
No purpose to say that we are completely peaceful. Many of the saints were warriors.
>>81267571
>Appealing to the majority? I don't reference *anyone* other than myself or God.
"That criterion is what virtually anyone accepts"
Are you sure you are doing alright?
>if God *ACTUALLY* (as in factually as in truthfully) reveals the truth AKA: the facts AKA: the reality of what has occurred at any time state to someone, someone *actually* then knows the truth (a priori true)
The "feels" lies in the certainty you have when it comes to your ability to judge when the requirement of "*actually*" is met. Notice how to accept your ability to determine what actually is an when A=A we have to arbitrarily discount others?
people actually fall for ortodox meme kek.
>>81267974
What of all the instances in the Old Testament where it says that NOTHING can be added, that God does not change, that the law does not change, and that anyone who teaches differently should be put to death?
>>81267914
I'm glad they were able to think outside the box... I agree that many people died for their religion... just look at the white army, HOWEVER, the entire religion, and what I was taught in the church was not the same message...
If you can embrace the orthodox values and still have the impetus to fight for your beliefs, that is great. Most of the people I saw in the church were very pacified.
>>81268224
Nothing was changed or added, Jesus did not write anything - He came to fulfill the law.
The Pentateuch and prophets talk about Him.
God did not change indeed - before He created the world He was the same.
Just like Jesus said - "before Abraham I am".
>>81267979
That's not part of the argument. It's a side note for the sheep so they can be baited by sophistry. Are you ok there?
I don't say I have certainty in my capability to judge the truth. I say "if the truth was actually revealed to me I would know the truth". You can balk at the spookiness of what "revealing" actually entails, but I'm employing it as "make known". So if something is made known to me, I know it. That's simply true - to be made to know something entails that one then knows that something. Aussie?
>>81253848
Overall you suffer from contradictory thinking. How can you trust the bible as a source to tell you that Christ is the Son of God, but not trust it as a source that he preformed miracles?
How can you doubt the words of the Bible, but beleive that >His word is the only path to salvation and reconnection with God in heaven.
Are you aware that the translations of the bible we have now are more accurate then most of history, and match up with the oldest surviving manuscripts of the NT books? How do you believe the truth has been corrupted?
>>81267914
I don't think there is anything that noble about pure martyrdom.
>>81267914
Many of the saints are saints because kings - backed the theological ideas of some priests with his army.
And if one of their friends died he could just declare him a saint.
t. Byzantine empire.
>>81268367
I am not Orthodox. I am an Anglo-Catholic.
Many religious figures have endorsed war in the past.
>>81268420
since when is "fulfill" synonymous with "abolish"?
Here's one prophecy Jesus did actually fulfill:
>Deuteronomy
>13 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
>2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
>3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
>4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
>5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
I want so badly to believe that Jesus is the Messiah and to believe in Orthodoxy, but it's a losing battle for me.
>>81256418
>My question is not answered there.
That's because you don't have a question in mind, you just came to spam your copy pasta.
>>81268475
You guys realize that Saturday is the day of the sabbath. Why hold service on Sunday ( pagan day)
Any fellow Anglo-Catholics here?
Not a very common thing in the Christian community.
>>81268914
Sunday is the day of the Resurrection, derp
>>81268998
I used to be an Anglo-Catholic, but I converted because ceremony is just cosmetics when you allow things like female ordination and gay marriage
>>81268914
Most people have work off on Sunday.
Do you want most people to not have the chance to worship in a blessed place?
>>81268763
You must be insane to believe the oral tradition was kept intact after Babylonian captivity and other events - it was mostly just rabbinical invention + we don't know if Moses actually passed down an oral tradition, clearly he could explain people some verses better but that's it.
So taking the structure of Pentateuch as it is - including prophets such as Isaiah then indeed Jesus literally fulfilled it.
Indeed His disciples abolished the rabbinic customs.
>>81268914
>>81265886
>Pavle's Church
I thought he wasn't allowed to bring friends.
>>81267717
can confirm good for question about orthodoxy, but nothing along the lines of RECLAIM CONSTANTINOPLE
>>81268914
To not confuse us with Satanic Talmudists.
>>81268763
You can still love your God with all your heart and soul... when the time comes you just have to take up arms to defend Him.
Seriously, you can't just turn the other cheek to keep in line with Christ's teachings and allow yourself to be slaughtered when it comes to it.
We have to fight for our culture, our religion and our peaceful way of life. Not everybody is cut out for it, but I hope you are.
>>81244106
What would it take for me to get you to come to terms with the western church?
>>81269108
There are specific Anglo-Catholic Parishes run by the Vatican which cater to the former Anglican / Anglo-Catholic audience.
Just look up the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter.
Doesn't have any of that liberal stuff.
>>81244106
>And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. 4And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
>>81268475
>That's not part of the argument. It's a side note for the sheep so they can be baited by sophistry.
Actually its kinda foundational as its an attempt to justify your foundational assumptions.
Its kind of like how the materialism/immaterialism argument is not directly an argument about communism however it has huge implications for its foundations.
>I don't say I have certainty in my capability to judge the truth. I say "if the truth was actually revealed to me I would know the truth". You can balk at the spookiness of what "revealing" actually entails, but I'm employing it as "make known". So if something is made known to me, I know it.
Its not the revelation part in having a go as much as the confidence you have in being able to know the truth value of it beyond it merely being an experiance.
>That's simply true - to be made to know something entails that one then knows that something
See before, this statement applies very well to identifying if one has experianced a sensation or not but falls apart once you move beyond that and try and distinguish between for instance "experiencing Divine Revelation, demonic interfereance or simply some purely material phenomena"
To use a no religious example look at the concept of luck and how people can ascribe it many ways to objects (pennies and horse shoes) to practices (doing something on a certain day with a 7 in it for instance). Now people in these cases using your reasoning can certainly say things like I won at races or got that promotion however that reasoning doesnt really demonstrate proof of thier objects or practices causing that to happen or playing a role in it.
>>81269599
wrong pic
>>81268674
How did you come to be an Anglo Catholic over Catholicism itself or Athiesm?
>>81269343
Orthodox have the same thing.
>>81244106
Hail Satan.
>>81263326
Never been to a roman catholic church then
>>81269789
>Actually its kinda foundational
Because saying "That criterion is what virtually anyone accepts" somehow implies anything other than "That criterion is what virtually anyone accepts". It would be an appeal to consensus if what had been said "x is right/more likely right/wrong/more likely wrong *BECAUSE* that is what virtually everyone accepts", but that's not what was said. Instead, all that was said was a descriptive statement - "That criterion is what virtually anyone accepts".
Aussie daijobu?
>>81269331
Renounce Vatican II, for starters.
>>81268857
That isn't an answer either. You don't have one, do you.
>>81269599
Thing is that I don't understand why some people interpret it as the moment when languages were invented - that's absurd, as the original verb used in Hebrew: syg-héo: to overthrown, to turn inside, to arouse ( in the sense to disturb water by shaking yeast )
It means means that literal presence of God made them not understand each other for the moment being.
translates as confound.
>>81270117
Just out of curiosity is that your repsonse to my entire post or just the points in those first two lines?
>founded by christ
>hundreds of years after his death
>by the people who killed him
okay lol. lets ignore the denominations that predate Constantine's pagan Frankenstein by centuries. FYI Islam is much closer to early Christianity than Nicene Christianity.
>>81270291
First two lines, since I want that addressed before I talk about the rest so as not to juggle things~
>>81267513
>here are three branches to the "true Church" : The Anglicans, the Catholics, and the Orthodox.
Not quite, most of the Anglican church is descended from puritan and calvinist heresy bullshit. They're mixed with real Christians, but mixing one part of shit with one part of honey only makes two parts shit. (Hence gay marriage, female 'priests', etc.)
>>81269168
Fuuuuck it's hard to argue this when I'm drunk lol. I still disagree. Jesus failed on too many prophecies, and many that he supposedly fulfilled aren't even messianic prophecies, only mistranslations in the Septuagint. Even if Jesus WAS the Messiah, there are tons of things that he (and Paul) said implying that we're to keep Mosaic law. The verses that Orthodox/Catholic use to justify their theology are such far stretches it's almost entirely unbelievable. As far as I see it history and scripture are not on the Church's side, the only thing they have is holy tradition. Of course if I disregard tradition then there's not much reason to believe Judaism, since it all evolved out of semitic polytheism.
>>81270202
because context
>>81270424
Allrighty
>Because saying "That criterion is what virtually anyone accepts" somehow implies anything other than "That criterion is what virtually anyone accepts". It would be an appeal to consensus if what had been said "x is right/more likely right/wrong/more likely wrong *BECAUSE* that is what virtually everyone accepts", but that's not what was said. Instead, all that was said was a descriptive statement - "That criterion is what virtually anyone accepts"
Given that the statement follows directly after your argument and before your other one it heavily implies an appeal to popularity regarding your axioms. Reread the post that it came in again I can accept you not wanting it to be read that way but its the clearest reading of it.
>>81269884
Well, I was a Protestant early on. (not my choice)
I was baptized 9 days after my birth as a Lutheran and I was raised as a Baptist.
(I never cared for either of those two denominations.)
During my youth, for some reason, I turned to Atheism. It gave me no answers, which led me back to Christianity.
I argued with my parents about Apostolic Succession and how I didn't want to be a member of a church of heresy. I settled with the next best thing, an Episcopal Church that my cousins and their family went to.
I fell in love with it.
I was one of the more conservative members and I still respected the Pope's authority, unlike most of the goers there.
Which led me to Anglo-Catholicism.
I still respect Anglican stuff like the "Book of Common Prayer" and their style of liturgy, and I desire to stick with it. Therefore I am an Anglo-Catholic.
I still like that Episcopal Church, I just respect the Pope more than the other people there.
>>81270833
>heavily implies
Implying unimplied implications~
I said exactly why that statement was there explicitly, and you ignored it in favor of your intuition and feels~
>That's not part of the argument. It's a side note for the sheep so they can be baited by sophistry
That's hardly charitable to someone's argument my Aussie nakama.
Daijobu yo?
>mistranslations in the Septuagint.
This is what Jewish scholars also suggested, except we now have DSS to confirm that Septuagint ( 2nd century BC translation of Hebrew text ) - is using the same tradition the DSS used - DSS being also 1 century earlier to Christ.
It would be rational to either implyg that Jewish rabi either altered the text to block out implications that sent to Jesus or rather shit really got fucked up in these parts...
But again where it is written " impaled " in LXX and MT scholars claimed that LXX is altered - it is also " imapled " in DSS.
And tell me why the fuck would an official translation from the high priest would be corrupted? Especially when until Christ it was loved and used by everyone.
Guess keep waiting for a president Messiah as you expect, a warrior Messiah.
LXX - is not catholic/orthodox it is kept by Orthodox tradition ( Catholics use Vulgate which is based on MT ) - but it's a Jewish piece of work, so a Jewish tradition.
It covered the Church side during Jesus times, it still covers Jesus side today.
>>81270131
As long as all Orthodox faiths will agree to practice mass in Greek (I know that Vatican II wasn't all about getting away from Latin, but I think you understand my point).
How did the recent Orthodox council go? Are the agreements made still valid if the bishop that represents a third of your followers didn't bother showing up?
See how silly infighting can lead towards unnecessary conflict?
The "filioque clause" mistransliterates and is best left out altogether. Having leavened vs unleavened bread should be up to the local bishop. At a minimum, Roman and Orthodox Catholics should at least be able to break bread together again.
>>81270314
>lets ignore the denominations that predate Constantine's pagan Frankenstein by centuries
Yeah? Name one.
>>81271164
>Implying unimplied implications~
you see why they should just be killed
all of them are useless goblins
>>81271174
This is meant to be a response to:
>>81270615
>>81271164
>I said exactly why that statement was there explicitly, and you ignored it in favor of your intuition and feels~
I reread your other posts and see your point now, I saw it as "cant" instead of "can" I didnt think you would want to mislead people deliberately.
>>81271592
* with respect to your apparent appeal to populism not the other parts
>>81271291
>How did the recent Orthodox council go?
There was no council.
>Are the agreements made still valid if the bishop that represents a third of your followers didn't bother showing up?
No.
>See how silly infighting can lead towards unnecessary conflict?
It's not infighting, it's how the Church works -- collegially.
>The "filioque clause" mistransliterates and is best left out altogether. Having leavened vs unleavened bread should be up to the local bishop. At a minimum, Roman and Orthodox Catholics should at least be able to break bread together again.
The differences between Orthodox and Catholic are not doctrinal; Catholics are orthodox in doctrine and matters of faith.
The differences are canonical, namely, the idea of Papal primacy.
So where do Christians get the idea of church and that having "the church" is needed.
Like all the silly things people came up with through out time must be what Jesus wanted right? That all the sermons and gimmicks are somehow even related to the word that was spouted long ago.
>>81271058
>respecting the pedo in the dagon hat
>>81271592
It's not misleading to anyone who's not an idiot. And idiots deserve to be mislead - me throwing the statement out there only affects idiots who think that the fact that other people believe something might be grounds for making a judgment about the truth value of that something.
That's not saying I'm deliberately misleading anyone though. I said a descriptively seemingly true statement - people can take it how they want. They can also suffer from their illogical dumb-fuckery until they correct themselves if they think of it wrongly.
>>81271058
So arent you still worried about the being a heretic thing?
Catholicism and Orthodoxy seem to be unbeatable in the Succession area
>>81271781
They go even deeper - theologically.
+ there's a difference of nuance: we see the official position of Catholic church in many matters.
The observatory claimed aliens could be real and if they are they're part of God plan ( try to comprehend the theological implications of this trough Mosaic-Jesus narrative )
Pope claimed that explaining biological life on earth trough impersonal process of evolution trough natural selection, a process with no meaning and no intervention is also from Gods plan ( try to comprehend the theological implications of this trough Mosaic-Jesus narrative )
Let;s not forget indulgences ( buying salvation, getting rids of sin trough monetary compensation ), inquisition, crusades ... that's just a tiny bit of it all happened post 1054 - so post great schism.
>>81272027
>It's not misleading to anyone who's not an idiot. And idiots deserve to be mislead - me throwing the statement out there only affects idiots who think that the fact that other people believe something might be grounds for making a judgment about the truth value of that something.
Given the mixed bag of /pol/ can you honestly say that its unreasonable to believe that someone making a post like yours could have been sincere in that way.
Now that weve fixed that issue what of the more substanive part of my other post.
>>81271848
Church is the concept - the ideea of every Christian being a part of an invisible organism, each being like an organ and Christ being the head of this organism.
The building, the clothes, the full text of liturgy are man made constructs, to aid, to help, to enjoy the life and serve God.
The first Eucharistic services were done in caves, in basements, in various rooms, on streets.
It's more of an timeless community, but each member received the same catechism - agrees on same dogmatic truth and is like one.
>>81271174
I'll read up on DSS
>>81271592
Back to the rest now:
>as the confidence you have in being able to know the truth value of it beyond it merely being an experiance
I assume God exists and that God makes the world uniform and trustable in believing my experience corresponds to truth. Within my axiomatic framework, I can have certainty. Are my axioms necessarily true. No, but they might be true, and I'll be assuming they're true.
>>81244106
Q: how can you look at Mormonism or Jehova's Witnesses and recognize what the deal is there but not realize you are in the same kind of thing, just older?
>>81272499
Isaiah is preserved well:
http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah
>>81252477
>the Church is a heaven for homosexuals
Pic related is but one example of pagan gods being degenerate as fuck.
>>81271291
>As long as all Orthodox faiths will agree to practice mass in Greek (I know that Vatican II wasn't all about getting away from Latin, but I think you understand my point).
That's never been our practice, Liturgy and Scripture is always in native tongue. If we were going for original language, it would be Aramaic or Hebrew
>How did the recent Orthodox council go? Are the agreements made still valid if the bishop that represents a third of your followers didn't bother showing up?
No. It was a stupid display of micro-poppery (patriarchs acting as if they are each a pope of their own church). It's meaningless, a council requires a ton of bishops, not just patriarchs and their squads. Patriarchs are no better than regular bishops except for being the chairmen, so to speak. The council is just non-binding declarations not worth the paper they were written on.
>See how silly infighting can lead towards unnecessary conflict?
The conflict is necessary because we aren't a Church of fourteen Romish Popes.
>>81271781
Papal supremacy is a Latin dogma. Not just a canon
>>81272586
>I assume God exists and that God makes the world uniform and trustable in believing my experience corresponds to truth. Are my axioms necessarily true. No, but they might be true, and I'll be assuming they're true.
So what would it take for you to reconsider these axioms or not assume them to be true?
>>81269789
>See... phenomena"
I'm not trying to lay out a criteria for how one might distinguish in my statements at all. I'm saying if I were made to know the truth (revelation) then I would know the truth. How someone may be made to know the truth and *absolutely know for a fact that such is the case* is a different question.
>>81268476
I believe that He performed miracles, perhaps many miracles, but there doesn't seem to be many reasons for the Gospel to spend so much time discussing miracles outside of trying to prove to readers of the ancient world, who were aware of ancient stories and ancient prophets, that this man was God. I don't believe that Elijah just floated off on a chariot of fire one day, for instance. But there was competition against stories like that in order to "prove" divinity.
I believe that Christ's word and message is actually pretty simple, and God has imbued us with the longing for it and the capability to easily accept it. Overall the teachings of Christ are very short, an average man who is incapable of faith healing lepers is not left with many parables to live his life upon. But it awakens our conscience and gives us reason to follow it. And should we feel lost, we can always read the stories again and look for guidance, as while the parables are few, they are extremely adaptable and powerful.
>Are you aware that the translations
No I'm not, how old are these manuscripts? I'm not saying the Word of Christ is completely corrupted, but rather it is probably quite likely some stories have been left out and some words shuffled around. For us to call it the literal word of God is a bit silly given it's a human invention.
Overall I don't feel my thinking is contradictory.
>>81271781
>There was no council.
Says Russia...
What was that "Pan Orthodox Council" that happened after decades of preparation?
>It's not infighting, it's how the Church works -- collegially.
Could the same thing be said of Roman and Orthodox Christians?
>>81272177
>The observatory claimed aliens could be real and if they are they're part of God plan ( try to comprehend the theological implications of this trough Mosaic-Jesus narrative)
This point was made well after the counter-reformation (which also did away with most of the other things you stated) and is not counter to the creation/savior belief. When was the last inquisition or crusade? Or Simony for that matter?
>>81272929
>h. How someone may be made to know the truth and *absolutely know for a fact that such is the case* is a different question.
That seems to be the core one though when it comes to how one should approach ethics and religion.
>>81244106
Oh go fuck this original nonsense. Even Jesus preached to avoid those that bear ill fruit, especially those that called themselves the original or closest to 'the law'. If a tree is becoming sick and bears only bad fruit, it will surely be struck down and used for kindling for it will produce only bad fruit or no fruit at all.
There is only truth with in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and those that are truly faithful will know who are part of the faith in the Trinity.
>>81273261
It doesn't, given (religion exists) yet as far as I'm aware no one has been able to perfectly overcome rigorous epistemological skepticism. Religious core beliefs function out of axiomatic commitments - "God exists" followed by "God has x" qualities etc.
>>81273192
So you would just imply that
1054 - 1563 was the only period in which Catholic Church was still in truth - although it had the anathema of Orthodox Church.
In this time frame we still include indulgences, inquisition, crusades.
The evolution and alien parts are obviously past catholic-reformation, since both theories are modern in origin.
>>81244106
>muh heterodoxy
>muh tradition
>>81273535
> Religious core beliefs function out of axiomatic commitments - "God exists" followed by "God has x" qualities etc
Not necessarily - it can be an innate human behavior, tendency.
You should read Stanislav Grof.
>>81270150
Niger, what is the question?
>>81272697
> If we were going for original language, it would be Aramaic or Hebrew
No, it would be Greek per the own Apostles' writings.
Why are you so much against Vatican II then?'
>Micro-poppery
and over 50 years in the making and it wasn't universally challenged?'
If Eastern Catholic and Western Orthodox Churches exist, then surely the faiths should be close enough to be able to share communion?
>>81273535
>as far as I'm aware
>>81273838
You do not intuitively believe in God, with all His specific commandments, His specific interactions with everyone in the past, and all the qualities specifically attributed to Him. That just doesn't fly my senpai.
>>81273915
Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew would most likely be the correct, as it is likely all 3 languages were spoken, given the time period. Roman as well, due to Israel being a part of the Roman Empire as well.
>>81273915
>If Eastern Catholic and Western Orthodox Churches exist, then surely the faiths should be close enough to be able to share communion?
It's like arguing to early church fathers that since Gnostic cult exist there should be communion.
After all they had the same root.
>>81273917
You tell me how anyone has ever done it or else where that don't function out of arbitrary axiomatic presuppositions - enlighten me with your intelligence ;^)
>>81274068
His specific commandments might be His confessions to us, considering His omnipotence and the dialogue He had with us as Jesus - we conclude that He is much aware of our incapability.
So pretty much the commandments themselves are confessions of life in God, what God can't be rather - since no one can tell you what God is.
But you intuitively can have mystical revelation, by chance or by spiritual order - more people could share the spiritual revelation hence share the specific commandments implied by the revelation.
When God spoke with Moses - it was in front of whole nation, thousands of humans witnessed the thunder-like voice coming from mountain.
>>81256418
>Claims world is ending imminently (1 John 2:18, Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:28, Matthew 24:34)
It does not that part is about the end of the jews
the end of the jews is comming soon
>Wants you to sell or give away your belongings
if your belongings (being rich) turns you in to a piece of shit you should get rid of it yes
>>81273915
>No, it would be Greek per the own Apostles' writings.
The Apostles wrote in Greek because...guess what? So the people they were writing to could understand it. Because Greeks couldn't speak Hebrew or Aramaic.They didn't write in it so it would become a frozen language that other peoples couldn't understand. Do you think they would not want the Liturgy in Latin so Latins could understand it?
>Why are you so much against Vatican II then?'
Because it recognized the baptism of Protestants and affirmed the dogma of 'anonymous Christian", among other issues, such as
Here are some issues
>The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
-Nostra aetate
>But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.
-Lumen gentium
>>81274480
This sort of thing could be done, due to Vatican II
>On 6 May 2001 he became the first Catholic pope to enter and pray in a mosque, namely the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus, Syria. Respectfully removing his shoes, he entered the former Byzantine era Christian church dedicated to John the Baptist, who is also revered as a prophet of Islam. He gave a speech including the statement: "For all the times that Muslims and Christians have offended one another, we need to seek forgiveness from the Almighty and to offer each other forgiveness."[92] He kissed the Qur'an in Syria, an act that made him popular among Muslims but that disturbed many Catholics.[186]
>>81274344
You don't know them intuitively though. You discover them a posteriori. And if that's the case, you run into the exact same problems as anyone else in regard to rigorous epistemological skepticism, given the experience by which you come to that data falls into the skeptical pit.
>>81274214
I just think it don't I
I don't presuppose anything
I just want it and I get it
>>81244106
>christ
>founding any churches himself
>>81274480
The apostles wrote in greek because they didnt know hebrew.
They were hellenised jews
>>81273632
No. My implications were different.
>>8127457
For now between me and you
>And if that's the case, you run into the exact same problems as anyone else in regard to rigorous epistemological skepticism, given the experience by which you come to that data falls into the skeptical pit.
is a straw man.
Elaborate. If you indeed want to have a productive dialogue about what you try to defend.
>>81274974
They weren't, maybe you thought so.
>This point was made well after the counter-reformation (which also did away with most of the other things you stated) and is not counter to the creation/savior belief. When was the last inquisition or crusade? Or Simony for that matter?
>>81274082
Very true, those were the dominant languages in the region at the time. If I remember correctly, weren't the gospels were written in Greek though? I know that at least one of them was written for that audience, but I can't remember what language they were originally written in.
