Why is /pol/ so afraid of this man? He is red pilled as fuck and whenever he challenges the /pol/ hivemind they just call it Russian propaganda or point out that he used to be a National Bolshevik. He is this generation's Evola, our new Guenon. He actually wants to develop a new political theory instead of just be some fascist LARPer. He is pro-Putin, pro-Trump, pro-Brexit, pro-traditionalism, pro-Orthodoxy, what's not to like? Can /pol/ not handle the red pill?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOWIoMtIvDQ
>>79872055
he is the definition of a larper
>>79872055
White nationalists resent his views of Eurasianism. I think he general views of multipolarity are hard to argue against. I also think he is broadly right about his sea vs. land empire theory, and Atlanticism. I also actually agree with his indictments of fascism (as well as liberalism and communism), and race-limited political frameworks, as they are in line with Evolian-like concepts like "spiritual component" of race.
Ultimately, if you are a pure racial nationalist, you are going to diverge from Dugin at some point.
>>79872292
We on /pol/ are afraid of him because he can make LARPing real.
We already went through a bumpy Berenstain dimensional overlap crisis. This guy's prescription will bring too much chaos to a world already ripping at the seams.
He's just too good.
>>79872055
He's very anti-American in the sense of being against having the United States act as a hyperpower to which everyone else is submitted though.
>>79872540
By Eurasianism he generally seems to imply being more tolerant of conquered minorities in Russia while Russians get out of their demographic slump (to avoid losing Russian territory)
>>79872764
Well he is against American hegemony, but aren't we all? I mean there is a reason /pol/ leans towards isolationism and against Zionist foreign policy.
>>79872764
You can reasonably read into his position, and take into account demographic and historical realities of Russian civilization, but the fact is that he explicitly rejects race as the necessary foundation of a country.
I actually agree with him when you take into account the additional concept of multipolarity and dasein. To strip it of PoliSci speak, it basically means different civilizations are based on different principles and thrive under different circumstances. It may very well be true that Europe Proper SHOULD be defined by racial nations, and to say that Russia shouldn't be does not necessarily mean one has to deny that ethnonationalism is right for Western Europe.
The point of focus for everyone should be the concept of multipolarity. It's the codification of anti-globalism and anti-universalist ideologies like liberalism.
>>79872055
>Chaos sign
he's okay, honestly, but 4th political theory was sloppy writing
his main theses, we should brainstorm something new before action and america is really bad are definitely true
>>79873314
>>79872764
>>79872055
This guy isn't just against "American hegemony," he's against keeping out muslim immigrants, against whites in general (in his own words) and wants the white race to be bred out of existence.
He's VERY strongly anti-white, and unlike most other loony leftists, he's OPENLY about it.
He's just for "muh tradition," and it doesn't matter what sort of traditionalism it is; he's 100% for the Islamification of Europe because its a more "traditional" culture.
He is a new hitler https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KuRmiXjAgg
>>79872055
>why does /pol/ do this????
>i thought you guys were kewl
Fuck these shill threads
>>79873314
I'd say hegemony in general, not just American hegemony.
>>79873360
He hasn't rejected race, he just sees it in a different way that /pol/ does. He sees it as important, but not as EVERYTHING. As an example of racism in his book, he uses the Nazi plans to exterminate Russians as an example, so it's more nuanced than "HE LOVES SHITSKINS AND WANTS THEM TO BREED WITH RUSSIANS"
>>79873687
You should read his book before saying stupid things
Insane old faggot, mixes esoteric and outdated political ideas. Faps to midslimes, Mongols and other chinks.
Muh beard, hates science would ban chemistry, talks shit about the white race hates, West not because of leftcucks, is anti-racist, many other shit.
>>79872055
isreali nationalists support those same things.
i don't hate isreali nationalists who will keep their noses out of the us.
same with this long haired faggot.
race exists
>>79872055
>He actually wants to develop a new political theory instead of just be some fascist LARPer.
Have you actually read his book about the fourth political theory? I admit he has an interesting view on some issues but he doesn't believe in the freedom of a person. He writes it is all derived from politics and you know what? That is exactly the shit liberals today proclaim too.
>>79873988
>You should read his book before saying stupid things
Alexander Dugin's own words suffice. If someone says they are for the end of the white race and that it is both impossible and immoral to prevent us from being race mixed into extinction, I shall take him at his word.
> so it's more nuanced than "HE LOVES SHITSKINS AND WANTS THEM TO BREED WITH RUSSIANS"
But that's his dream. He also stated that if Russia backed off in Ukraine, then it would mean the right wing would rise in Europe, that LGBTQIAP+++++ rights would suffer, muslim immigrants would be pushed out, etc. -- and that that's why Russia has to take Ukraine and probably keep going.
Why should I listen to a man who's dream is the end of white people?
>>79872055
4/pol/, generally speaking, is too stupid and normie-friendly to appreciate Dugin. Or they've never heard of him. Or they see a few quotes of his and dismiss him without understanding how those quotes fit into his larger message. Cripplechan seems to like him.
>>79872055
Literally who
>>79874603
There's also that in general /pol/ tends to be pro white and anti muslim immigration, while Dugin is anti white and pro muslim immigration.
>>79872055
why i didnt even heard of him
>pushes eurasian union which is ussr 2.0
ah
>>79874400
>>79874784
>Why should I listen to a man who's dream is the end of white people?
>WAAAH WHY SHOULD I READ SOMEONE'S BOOK SINCE THIS ONE OUT-OF-CONTEXT QUOTE SEEMS TO INDICATE SOMETHING I DISAPPROVE OF
Fuck off
>>79874603
If you like to periodically make jokes or shitpost, cripplechan is shit because they'll instantly give you a 4-week ban. I've even had effortposts of mine deleted because I was 4-week banned for "replying to a shill thread." That was the last straw for me
Ivan mutts always wanted to be race purists but couldn't because 1/3 of russian inhabitants are non white.
https://youtu.be/GqQcZwf-i4A
>>79874358
"Freedom is the greatest value of the Fourth Political Theory, since it coincides with its centre and its dynamic, energetic core. The difference is that this freedom is conceived as human freedom, not as freedom for the individual — as the freedom given by ethnocentrism and the freedom of Dasein, the freedom of culture and the freedom of society, and the freedom for any form of subjectivity except for that of an individual. Moving in the opposite direction, European thought long ago came to a different conclusion: 'man (as an individual) is a prison without walls' (Jean-Paul Sartre); that is to say, the freedom of an individual is a prison. In order to attain true freedom, we must go beyond the limits of the individual. In this sense, the Fourth Political Theory is a theory of liberation, of going beyond the prison walls into the outside world, which begins where the jurisdiction of individual identity ends."
>>79875078
>When “White nationalists” reaffirm Tradition and the ancient culture of the European peoples, they are right. But when they attack immigrants, Muslims or the nationalists of other countries based on historical conflicts; or when they defend the United States, Atlanticism, liberalism or modernity; or when they consider the White race (the one which produced modernity in its essential features) as being the highest and other races as inferior, I disagree with them completely.
>If “identitarians” really love their identity, they should ally themselves with the Eurasianists, alongside the traditionalists and the enemies of capitalism belonging to any people, religion, culture or political camp. Being anti-Communist, anti-Muslim, anti-Eastern, pro-American or Atlanticist today means to belong to the other side.
He also supports the hard core leftist political party Syriza in Greece, which wants open borders and amnesty for all illegals.
>>79875351
The state is always above the common Ivan.
This is a classic communist idea.
>>79875464
You have to place this inside a Russian context and then see which principles he refers to that could apply to other countries
>>79875464
You see, you can't just take a whole paragraph out of context. You have to read all the book to get the hidden message.
>>79875798
Yes, yes. It is mandatory to drink a bottle of vodka before you start reading.
Then you'll understand everything.
>>79875798
He is specifically talking about the right wing in Western Europe and America though, not in Russia.
I fully understand his position that Islam is a part of Russia (I don't sympathize with it in the least but its out of my sphere of interest).
No wonder he supports organizations that call for open borders in Europe and America.
>>79876051
>I fully understand his position that Islam is a part of Russia
This is communist double talk.
A tumor can be part of your body.
>>79876281
>>79876034
>>79875857
>>79875536
>a wild butthurt gypsie appear.
Even moldova is doing better than you.
Since they are communists.
>>79875464
All he's saying is that he is against white supremacy in the strict sense of the phrase and that globalist capitalism is destructive towards traditional civilization.
He goes on to say "There is only one enemy: the global, liberal capitalist order supported by North American hegemony (which is also directed against the genuine American identity)."
So he is for the true American identity, the traditional American way of life, American sovereignty. What he is saying is that if American white nationalists value those things and support the globalist order they are contradicting themselves.
>He also supports the hard core leftist political party Syriza in Greece
And he supports Golden Dawn as well.
>>79876051
You sound ideological about this so I know I'm wasting my time here
>>79872055
Male equivalent of a coalburner.
>>79875536
"Society's needs come before the individual's needs." - Hitler
>>79876445
The siberian mongrel is going full shill
>>79876798
Hitler was a socialist
>>79876507
>All he's saying is that he is against white supremacy in the strict sense of the phrase and that globalist capitalism is destructive towards traditional civilization.
Yet he's a dedicated shill for the same open border policies the globalists adore, and is definitely against "white supremacy" in the form of closed borders and rejection of Islam. He doesn't c
>So he is for the true American identity, the traditional American way of life, American sovereignty.
Not really. He doesn't believe in nations, nor individual freedom, nor borders, and loves to describe America as a nation of immigrants, and that immigrants are behind basically every good idea America ever had. I'm browsing Open Revolt now, let me know if you want citations.
>>79876553
No, not wanting his dream of a mongrelized open borders world ruled by what is in his opinion Eurasian fascism isn't "ideology," its just not being suicidal.
>>79872055
Well, he is crazy.
there's witchcraft in this thread and it is years too early
>>79872055
Dugin is what a cultured /pol/lack should aspire to be once they grow out of their edgy "gas everyone who isn't white" phase. They miss the forest for the trees. It's a shame that the only traditionalist movement in the west is spearheaded by that fat faggot Heimbach.
>>79877120
Doesn't mean he's wrong though.
Based
>I consider the “White nationalists” allies when they refuse modernity, the global oligarchy and liberal-capitalism, in other words everything that is killing all ethnic cultures and traditions. The modern political order is essentially globalist and based entirely on the primacy of individual identity in opposition to community. It is the worst order that has ever existed and it should be totally destroyed. When “White nationalists” reaffirm Tradition and the ancient culture of the European peoples, they are right. But when they attack immigrants, Muslims or the nationalists of other countries based on historical conflicts; or when they defend the United States, Atlanticism, liberalism or modernity; or when they consider the White race (the one which produced modernity in its essential features) as being the highest and other races as inferior, I disagree with them completely.
>More than this, I can’t defend Whites when they are in opposition to non-Whites because, being White and Indo-European myself, I recognize the differences of other ethnic groups as being a natural thing, and do not believe in any hierarchy among peoples, because there is not and cannot be any common, universal measure by which to measure and compare the various forms of ethnic societies or their value systems. I am proud to be Russian exactly as Americans, Africans, Arabs or Chinese are proud to be what they are. It is our right and our dignity to affirm our identity, not in opposition to each other but such as it is: without resentment against others or feelings of self-pity.
cont
>>79877597
>I can’t defend the concept of the nation, because the idea of the “nation” is a bourgeois concept concocted as a part of modernity in order to destroy traditional societies (empires) and religions, and to replace them with artificial pseudo-communities based on the notion of individualism. All of that is wrong. The concept of the nation is now being destroyed by the same forces that created it, back during the first stage of modernity. The nations have already fulfilled their mission of destroying any organic and spiritual identity, and now the capitalists are liquidating the instrument they used to achieve this in favor of direct globalization. We need to attack capitalism as the absolute enemy which was responsible for the creation of the nation as a simulacrum of traditional society, and which was also responsible for its destruction. The reasons behind the present catastrophe lie deep in the ideological and philosophical basis of the modern world. In the beginning, modernity was White and national; in the end, it has become global. So White nationalists need to choose which camp they want to be in: that of Tradition, which includes their own Indo-European tradition, or that of modernity. Atlanticism, liberalism, and individualism are all forms of absolute evil for the Indo-European identity, since they are incompatible with it.
>>79876919
>He doesn't believe in nations
He's a traditionalist, the traditional ideal is the empire. The rise of nationalism after the French Revolution came at the expense of monarchy and empire.
>>79877300
>wanting borders and preserving your nation is the same as "gas all nonwhites"
>>79877300
There is more to nationalism then just the country its self. If you believe that you are as deluded as the shitty GOP
>>79873364
>>79877775
I'm aware that that's what he considers himself. Just pointing out the nonsense of saying he's "pro America."
>>79877880
>it doesn't have a dick
>>79877793
You have to gas them. They're not going to voluntarily leave.
>>79877775
You cant have a tradition if your country is replaced by different race of people
>>79872055
He is just uniting all anti-american moviments and is creating a theory to justify aggression against USA, he is a Russia intelectual puppet.
Check out http://debateolavodugin.blogspot.com.br/
>>79872540
>sea vs land empire
this goes deeper than anything else really.
look up the Tribe of Dan in the bible.... the sea people. Jews who rejected their God early on and went to conquer the world by ship.
this same tribe is the ruling class of America and the Anglosphere.
>>79877892
He's very pro Trump. He's very anti "Americanism" (secularism, globalism, etc.)
>>79877980
>>79872055
He's good but he's not the end-all and be-all. He is also guilty of the Russian philosoph trap, getting lost in his own talk.
>>79875226
Go steal some horse, you dirty gypsy
>>79872055
Fuck this guy
>>79877892
1. We distinguish between two different things: the American people and the American political elite. We sincerely love the first and we profoundly hate the second.
2. The American people has its own traditions, habits, values, ideals, options and beliefs that are their own. These grant to everybody the right to be different, to choose freely, to be what one wants to be and can be or become. It is wonderful feature. It gives strength and pride, self-esteem and assurance. We Russians admire that.
3. But the American political elite, above all on an international level, are and act quite contrary to these values. They insist on conformity and regard the American way of life as something universal and obligatory. They deny other people the right to difference, they impose on everybody the standards of so called “democracy”, “liberalism”, “human rights” and so on that have in many cases nothing to do with the set of values shared by the non-Western or simply not North-American society. It is an obvious contradiction with inner ideals and standards of America. Nationally the right to difference is assured, internationally it is denied. So we think that something is wrong with the American political elite and their double standards. Where habits became the norms and contradictions are taken for logic. We cannot understand it, nor can we accept it: it seems that the American political elite is not American at all.
4. So here is the contradiction: the American people are essentially good, but the American elite is essentially bad. What we feel regarding the American elite should not be applied to the American people and vise versa.
>>79878211
You ate all the horses.
Tonight you're eating horse dick.
>>79878360
Jews did all of those things, not whites
>>79877793
Find me a quote where he is for open borders otherwise stop lying.
>>79878132
I don't get this.
is Trump not the ultimate Americanist?
He's socially liberal, never goes after faggots or anything else really, he himself is a serial adulterer, and his very slogan is all about pushing civic "american nationalism" and ESPECIALLY secularism.
How does Dugin accept that Trump is so secular
>>79878138
Hm that's pretty vile. I guess I'm going to pore over this image and listen to Cradle of Filth now.
I first learned about Dugin when I saw him in some TV program. He was saying that in traditional Russian society, a beard was a symbol of a man's worth. He then stressed that everyone without a beard was considered a fag and visibly approved of it. I decided I didn't want to watch any further.
Anyway, I heard he's pretty close to the state… Also heard that he was a professor MGU until some students protested against it. Personally, I don't take his views seriously—they're too leftist.
>>79878592
See that's true.. in TRADITIONAL RUSSIAN SOCIETY.
Dugin does not want to enforce this globally on other cultures.
He believes all cultures should preserve their traditions.
>>79878360
>planetary anti-white pogroms
so they're gonna turn us into superjews, awesome.
>>79878511
Ssshh
>>79878138
>>79877880
>>79877980
I think it's PURGIN' TIME.
>>79872055
>Why is /pol/ so
>whenever he challenges the /pol/
>they just call it
Never heard of him. Not going to start following him just because of you, either. I've never even heard his name and if I ever do learn about him through word-of-mouth and not through some retarded advertising, maybe I'll return with an opinion.
I'm very active on 4chan and moderately active on TRS, and my friends get around too. I've literally never seen this guy in my fucking life. /pol/ does not have a relationship with this man, only some well-informed posters who are already in his circles do. I am not, and I don't think many people are.
>>79872055
If I click on this link and there is some kind of song, music or soundtrack I will quit immediately and call all of you a bunch of low IQ retards.
>>79879041
>I'm very active on 4chan and moderately active on TRS
You're a low information normie, and you're wrong. You obviously haven't been here very long. You also obviously only read/watch mainstream YouTube celeb talking heads, and circle-jerk alt-right rags. Otherwise you would have at least HEARD of Dugin.
>>79872055
>An East Slav
>Thinking he's Eurasian
>Wants Russia to occupy Funland and most of Eastern Europe
Yeah, no thank you.
>>79879041
He was in the US news briefly when he endorsed Trump and liberals used it against Trump because Dugin is considered a fascist in the West and an endorsement by a fascist means Trump is a fascist.
>>79879325
I've been on 4chan for about ten years and I don't watch anyone of note on Youtube. This is my primary source of information and I've never heard his name ever. Strictly speaking I haven't been on /pol/ that long, only since Dorner, but I get fed a lot of news and philosophy through chat groups and my close friends who are on different sites.
This man is not notable.
>>79877348
Fuck off, cuck. Pic related is the world as envisioned by Alexander Dugin. If you're behind that then you have to hang.
Dugin is simply a Russian imperialist who seeks to turn rightists in the West into the same kind of useful idiots as the leftists wete for the Soviet Union. He does this by concocting a phony system of pseudo-traditionalism that appeals to rightists on a superficial level.
>>79878360
…And I assumed he was a die-hard Russian nationalist.
>>79878743
He isn't very different from bluepill.
So I assume he's anti-Anglo-Saxon/catholic/protestant; so in other words, he pretty much against the same thing as jews. No wonder he supports immigration and open borders in America.
He also conveniently pretends Russians aren't white/Christian; that Russian Empire and USSR never oppressed anyone, didn't have networks of puppet states and didn't bury millions of their own citizens.
I understand his closed border/traditionalist society ideas; but they are mixed with some really dangerous stuff into some really fucked up ideology, and he really does sound out of his damn mind. I remind you that he's rumored to have been pretty close to Russian elites; what the actual fuck? He sounds like a guy who could have gassed millions of white Americans if he had a chance.
Mr. Dugin's speech at the event "American Liberalism Must be Destroyed" held at Texas A&M on 29 April 2015.
>>79879471
>He was in the US news briefly
gee whiz
But thanks for the heads up anyway. It doesn't surprise me at all that a Russian or anyone outside of mainstream US politics would support Trump. No one (informed) who isn't being paid supports his opposition. It's not much of a choice.
>>79879595
>not notable
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics
I don't even agree with Dugin, but you need to read more, and stop restricting yourself to middle-brow, pop-right, culture war shit. It's not good enough to just be against SJWism, and for white identity. That shit is entry level frustration, and requires no serious history or philosophy to arrive at.
Even something mildly high brow like Jonathan Bowden is preferable to 99% of the shit that's regularly on pol. Be honest, have you watched every single one of Bowden's speeches and lectures?
>>79879763
YUGE
>>79879595
>This man is not notable
I'D NEVER HEARD OF YOU
NOBODY IN EUROPE HAS EVER HEARD OF YOU
>>79879732
Check out his textbook on geopolitics, he pretty much lays it out in there.
>>79879595
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFI6fg8NITg
>>79878360
Wtf I hate Russians now.
>>79872055
>whenever he challenges the /pol/ hivemind they just call it Russian propaganda
>>79879732
>Dugin is simply a Russian imperialist who seeks to turn rightists in the West into the same kind of useful idiots
Hmm
>>79880069
>middle-brow, pop-right, culture war shit
>implying i devote any energy to this
Let's review the thread, shall we?
>Why is /pol/ so afraid of this man?
Your response:
>Even something mildly high brow like Jonathan Bowden is preferable to 99% of the shit that's regularly on pol. Be honest, have you watched every single one of Bowden's speeches and lectures?
Or in other words "no, /pol/ doesn't know him." You're confused about what my point is. /pol/ has no relationship with this Dugin man.
>>79875351
This is exactly the shit I mean. Dugin like many Russian intellectuals around these days has no respect for the individual and only wants bigger institutions to control society. I agree with him on the stupidity of nationalism and how much better the religious clusters were before, but that isn't where he wants to go. He just wants to undo all the philosophical development we have gone through in the past and replace it with a new form of state. But that one is much better because it is colorblind!
>>79880460
If you listen to TRS and consider it anything more than entertainment, then you do.
>>79880460
There has been several dozen Dugin and Eurasianism threads over the last few years, especially after Fourth Political Theory was publish in English in 2012. You were simply busy with other topics if you didn't notice them.
>>79879595
try reading some intellectual stuff like counter-currents.com and theoccidentalobserver.com.
>>79872055
Is that a Chaosphere?
>>79879762
>No wonder he supports immigration and open borders in America.
[citation needed]
>>79880676
>If you listen to TRS and consider it anything more than entertainment, then you do.
Oh look, you're putting words in my mouth. Really look at what you just wrote: you made a decision for me. Without me taking a position, you found one yourself.
Do I view TRS for entertainment or for news? Doesn't matter, you already decided for me. You're a real philosopher, you know that?
>>79881002
It's a mediocre news site too, and it's op-eds are generally not of high intellectual rigor. >>79880801 gave you two better alternatives.
>>79880622
Individualism is why we have trannies and all these other degenerates in this post-modern secular shit hole.
>>79879717
You retard. Even I can color up a map in a way I would like it to be in an ideal world without actually proposing action to make it all so. breaking up China and most of Europe like that for one is completely implausible.
>>79881277
No, that is the consequence of progressivism. That is why every time somebody comes up with an idea to tell people where they should go you should say: "Fuck you, I'll do what I want."
>>79880622
Based German speaking truth.
>>79875351
"Of course we are for liberty. I want to liberate you from your own thought. We are going to liberate you from your needs and make you do what society wants from you"
Gee thanks Mr. Dugin, I thought Stalin purges, guns before butter policies and 1991 fall of Soviet Union proved that left didn't work, and that it's the left that is killing Sweden nowadays. Didn't realize how wrong I was!
To hell with individual freedom! It's the most horrible thing to have happened to world, right? If you disobey society traditions, you've made a thoughtcrime and should be punished. Sounds great! Definitely looking forward to this bright future!
…But seriously, living in the same country with Dugin makes me sick inside.
>>79881196
>It's a mediocre news site too
Oh look, you're putting words in my mouth. Again.
You're a fucking mess. You don't care about convincing me, you're just yelling at me. I can tell you're mad because you keep making up reasons to complain that aren't based on anything I ever said.
>>79880460
>I've never heard of him therefore /pol/ has never heard of him despite everyone ITT having on strong opinion on the man
Why don't you fuck off then you dumb alt-right fag
>>79881277
I've never seen someone fully integrate a believe in hierarchy with a belief in individualism as construed by liberalism. People inevitably believe in one to the exclusion of the other.
>>79881545
Whether you view it for entertainment or news, you're wasting your time. And no, I don't give a shit about convincing you. You don't even have the intellectual curiosity to have an action discussion about Dugin. You simply dismiss the premise of the thread because YOU haven't heard of him. You're no use to anyone.
>>79875536
Learn to differentiate between State and government, illiterate fuck.
>>79880801
Good links. I dislike Greg Johnson at counter currents, but he has written some interesting stuff. The writers at Occidental Observer are excellent. If you speak French or German they post articles in those languages as well. The Occidental Observer article called, I believe, "The Universality of Antisemitism" gave me my first real red pills. It was sourced, well-written, and covered subjects (like the Jewish trashing of Argentina's economy) which I had never even heard of, despite regularly following alternative media.
>>79881775
Have you considered suicide? I'm not "alt-right," whatever that means.
>>79872540
Can you give a run down of this sea vs land empire theory?
>>79881443
Progressivism comes from individualism though. Progressivism is basically "Ok, now that we've freed the people from religion, tradition, and hierarchy and made everyone equal, how do we take it even farther?"
>>79881796
There's serious cognitive dissonance because the Internet itself is the most anti-hierarchy medium conceivable.
Just by using it for so long people are conditioned to see individualism as the only acceptable ideal simply becasue they're trapped in the Internet and addicted to the sense of security and non-accountability a place like a chan provides.
>>79882190
the ultimate irony is the Internet is the ULTIMATE form of anti-tradition. There's no hierarchy at all, and it's inherently egalitarian.
This is really why it's so hard for people to break out of the liberal trance. The technology itself is entrenched in it. Most of us should have been peasants working the fields, not middle class office cucks with the right to shitpost in front of screens. But nobody can comprehend this and even the ones that do can't DO anything about it.
Dugin himself opposes its very existence for a reason.
>>79882469
It's a double edged sword. The internet made Brexit happen and memed Trump into the nomination.
>>79882190
How so?
It's the leftists who emphasize collectivism, society-before-individual policies. That's why Marcuse inspired SJW movement that screams about current year is called New Left.
The Right mostly puts individual needs over society's needs. That's what Dugin actually rejects fiercely.
>>79872055
>He is converting students through university programs
>YOU MONSTER
>Americans do the same thing but backwards
>BLM! SO TOLERANT!
Russia and America are so different, yet very much the same.
>>79882729
>implying Trump isn't the ultimate Zionist pawn
they're all controlled opposition m8. Trump is an even more extreme Jew lover than Hillary, and also a friend of the Clintons and possibly a pedophile too.
>>79882740
>It's the leftists who emphasize collectivism, society-before-individual policies
It's this kind of logic that makes people erroneously paint guys like Ron Paul and other libertarians as being "far right". Dugin calls this "liberal capitalism" which is what it is. Fascists are collectivists. National Socialists are collectivists. Collectivism is not inherently left or right.
>>79882052
Sea cultures are always at war with land cultures. Great Britain, and the US are sea cultures. Russia and China are land cultures. Sea cultures are rootless, sustained by cosmopoliticanism and prone to universalism as they try to incorporate far away lands into their empires. Land cultures are rooted (think: blood and soil, though he doesn't use that language), and sustained by tradition.
>>79883250
>Collectivism is not inherently left or right.
ALL liberals thing otherwise. Not all leftists are against collectivism, but everyone who is against collectivism in principle is a leftist in the historical sense--a Whig.
>>79882469
>Most of us should have been peasants working the fields, not middle class office cucks with the right to shitpost in front of screen
Who are you to say we "should have been" something else? The world is better without toiling in the fields all day, and you and I would both be unable to participate in this conversation if we were busy picking turnips.
Do you not feel that your life matters?
Why do you hate yourself?
>>79883250
I still don't get how Dugin likes Trump.
Trump besides his foreign policy is extremely , decadently liberal socially. He's an individualist egomaniac. I guess this is mostly because at least Trump isn't anti-Russian and would let Russia become more traditional even if America never does
>>79882190
I guess I could tackle your thought when you would have put it the other way around, but how did progressivism lead to individualism? We should not forget that progressivism has been a driving force in political thought and it's a collectivist idea through and through because progressivism means fleshing out a world that than has to be achieved.
>>79883251
Does Dugin want all sea cultures to be destroyed? or just leave the land cultures alone?
Don't forget though, by using a site like 4chan you're supporting liberalism (whig views) simply by seeing the Internet as a good thing at all
>>79872055
because he's an enemy of the West?
I mean even when he's right about western decadence.
>>79883441
Nobody's life matters in industrial society.
Most people's lives DID Matter in feudal society, down to every last peasant.
So yes, if I was picking turnips with my wife and kids in a village I'd be happier
>>79883392
Do you hold the position that leftists are wrong about literally everything? Because you could say the same thing about a lot of ideas /pol/ has come to embrace, such as protectionism in trade.
Dugin on lefties: "The problem with the Left is different. It is good when it opposes the capitalist order, but it lacks a spiritual dimension. The Left usually represents itself as an alternative path to modernization, and in doing so it also opposes organic values, traditions and religion, just as liberalism does.
I would be happy to see Left-wing identitarians who defend social justice while attacking capitalism on one hand, and who embrace spiritual Tradition and attack modernity on the other. "
>>79879717
Nothing wrong with this map.
>>79872598
>Berenstain
You misspelled Berenstein
>>79882740
(Modernity(Left---Right))
Left and right come from the French Revolution. They're BOTH contextualized within the broader umbrella of Liberalism. When you get to the boundary of Conservative Liberalism, you reach the "far right", traditionalism, perennialism--the primordial truths of the pre-modern world, which all reject individualism and freedom as even meaningful terms. It's an entirely different political conception to step outside the boundaries of Liberalism. The contemporary right, libertarians, anarcho-capitalists, ALL of them, are Liberals in a historical sense.
>>79883590
It's hard to say. I don't recall an explicit statement one way or the other. He does however see land empires as intrinsically defensive warfighters, so I doubt he envisioned as invasion of the Atlanticists.
>>79883821
Yes. Literally everything.
>>79878360
What the fuck? How can someone be this ignorant about the Jews? What he's talking about is Jewish culture and behavior, not white.
>>79883783
>Nobody's Life Matters ©
>>79883251
that's not a very accurate observation, considering that during the british empire the anglo aristocracy valued british soil above all and most colonies were just means to an end.
the same goes for america - how is american traditionalism not built on the ethos of american land and the hard work by the settlers to make it inhabitable. also the us has no foreign territory russians on the other hand constantly seek to justify how all the different races/ethnicities/religious groups etc. are part of the russian state etc
>>79884042
also russia to this day is very expansionist
>>79884042
How do you reconcile tradiionalism with the ways modern technology is inevitably destroying it?
Do you see a way forward without realizing that we have to abandon things like the Internet, or at least heavily change them (places like anon chans wouldn't exist for sure)?
Also, what does one born into a sea culture do? Should they become traitors to their culture's inherent evilness and join a land culture?
>>79882190
Individualism and progressivism are directly contradictory. Anyone who tries to apply both is going to be constantly confused. They believe simultaneously that people should be different in every way, but never better or worse. Any real decision-making just makes people shut down, and they rely on authorities to make all moral decisions instead.
I don't think it's fair to say just because they developed together, they are necessarily conjoined. If anything it shows that this was an intentional choice and people's values are muddled and confused. It's not a surprise that these people are constantly anxious in the absence of authority.
The proximity of these two ideas isn't a good indicator of their pedigree. Their relationship is artificial. Modernism tells people that all beliefs or actions ever tried are automatically wrong and inferior, unless an authority tells them otherwise. I don't think very many people seriously believe in progressivism or individualism. If they did, they would not be able to reflect on their beliefs ever without abandoning them, since it doesn't make any sense.
This is just a result of people being fed information they don't want because they don't really care about philosophy or politics. It's tailor-made for normies. Do you know any serious writers not funded by a government organization that genuinely believes in these things? Of course not, it's just Jewish garbage. You're not supposed to think about it, just accept it.
I don't think it's fair to talk about these like legitimate beliefs as they are not meant to be examined, and nothing in real life reflects them. Try to remember that people who you view as "uneducated dumb rightists" are mostly talking to and about these subjects, which fundamentally are non-starters.
People you might call "leftists" are recognized as extreme ring-wing Nazis by the majority of Westerners. If you spend too much time studying philosophy you will forget what the average person is like.
>>79883503
Individualism is what killed monarchy, it's what frees children from the religion of their parents. It's what killed the noble class and the aristocracy. It's what killed the chivalric order, it's what freed the slaves. It's what frees people from traditional gender roles.
Individualism is the idea that one can opt out of every single one of the circumstances God has given them.
>>79884109
It doesn't really matter that much anymore. They've managed to make their ways also those of many "whites" in general. Their positions and behavior are indistinguishable from the feminists, social liberals and the like in the West. Also many in the so called "international elite" are just formerly goys who were formerly national elites in their own countries. Today you really can't trust many people to be "red pilled" at all in the West, even those that share some of your ideals, simply because the brainwashing starts from pre-school.
>>79884384
Technology isn't as big of a threat as you think. China is the most right wing government on the planet right now. It is ruled by an absolute authority, and the central principal of modern China is "don't question the legitimacy of The Party's authority". It's an absolute monarchy with The Party instead of an Emperor. It's not accidentally also the most successful capitalist country in the world.
I have no problem with individualism as a personal matter, but it should have NOTHING to do with people's conceptions of legitimate authority and government. The Party legitimately controls China because The Party controls China. Democracy, popular consent, human rights, these are all bullshit made up to try to invent a better way than the only way that power actually works.
>>79877597
There are always hierarchies in nature. For someone who seems like such a natural traditionalist you'd think he'd realize that. We will always make value judgements based on the particulars of the world we live in, we can infer relative values of all things based on both subjective and objective criteria.
Just because a human doesn't have any more intrinsic objective value than a rock doesn't mean I won't or shouldn't value a human more than a rock. This guy is a turbo autismo and you retards calling him based are either too dumb or autistic yourselves to see why.
>>79884798
>Individualism is what killed monarchy, it's what frees children from the religion of their parents.
No, because then the Catholic Church would have never spread then. Why? Because its message was individualistic and in the end it also was what supported monarchies. However monarchies powers vanished because the Christian message allowed the individual to marry outside his familia.
>It's what killed the noble class and the aristocracy.
And John Adams himself believed there to be a natural aristocracy. It doesn't need titles but the recognition of the people around it to knight it and that is what individualism serves.
>It's what frees people from traditional gender roles.
>Individualism is the idea that one can opt out of every single one of the circumstances God has given them.
I don't know what that means. Mothers are still birthing children on our side of the pond so what are you on about?
It's fucking hilarious seeing people that have gone so far down the rabbit hole that they view the feudal system as an ideal to strive towards.
>The only way to prevent "degeneracy" is to become 12th century Europe or the PRC
Fuck I'm now a #FeudalFusilier.
>>79883392
That's backwards, Conservativess are individualists. Liberals are collectivists. A collectivist doesn't understand agency because his single mother can't teach him what she doesn't know. End of story.
>>79887247
It's what we had before emancipation of the jews in the French revolution. Worked well enough or at least preserved the various different European people for quite a long time.
>>79887247
>Fuck I'm now a #FeudalFusilier.
flows off the tongue so nicely too
>>79887768
The real issue is how it would ever be able to come back in the age of the Internet, let alone in a rootless place like America
>>79887247
there's a reason why fantasy literature is so popular even among liberals.
because deep down they long for a society like that, which is now only the domain of storybooks and D&D
>>79887247
Actually, (non-Christian) feudalism has very little moralism inherent. An absolute monarch does not need to enforce moral codes beyond the questioning of the legitimacy of his rule. There's not need to propagandize or brainwash the masses with ideological education so long as they understand who is in power. As long as they respect that, they can otherwise do pretty much what they please.
>>79887467
You are only thinking on the context of modernism, but even Edmund Burke, the original conservative, argued profusely against individualism as espoused by Payne. Burke pointed out that we are all born into pre-existing webs of association--family, tribe, village, nation--and that the left sought too much as they try to "liberate" people from all prior associations and limitations, which Burke argued with exactly the things that make us human and define the human condition.
Burke, arguing against individualism, or perhas "hyper"individualism, said that the left wants to to abdicated humanity from itself, which is the same as wanting to destroy itself.
I suggest Evola, Nietzche, Schmidt, Carlyle, or even the memoirs of Lee Kuan Yew, if you want to understand why the language of the modern left/right split is hopelessly bound up in erroneous Liberal assumptions, which you probably take for granted, and don't even thing of as ideologies.
>>79888205
Actually, (non-Christian) feudalism has very little moralism inherent. An absolute monarch does not need to enforce moral codes beyond the questioning of the legitimacy of his rule.
I like Kunheldt-Leddihn.
He's a good one for redpilling former libertarians
>>79888205
Another question I do wonder is what is your stance on mass literacy?
Is it best to keep most people illiterate? I seriously sometimes come to believe that yes, it is, and the masses really are best off not even needing to know how to read. What's the worth in literacy for people who's social role doesn't even require it. All the best works were made in a society where literacy was for the few, not everyone.
Of course this is pretty much insane to revert from given the state of technology, where literacy is a survival skill.
>>79887768
>>79888172
Boy I sure long for the course of my life being dictated by the clan patriarch, or for my village to be razed to make way for the Duke's sheep.
Your argument is that humans are cattle and should be treated as such. I wonder who benefits from such a mindset.
>>79887247
FUCK. That's it. I'm now a #NormieNuke
>>79888742
It's best for your population to produce as much economic value as possible. Illiterate peasants do not have as much economic value as literate peasants. What's important is that people are not deluded with ideologies that tell them they have a "right" to overthrow authorities in the name of equality. It's only in the west that we associate economic freedom with political freedom. Singapore proved that they need not be linked. China is proving it again. Besides, it's always the minor nobles that stir the most trouble in feudal states--Liberalism was invented by the gentry, not by the peasants.
The problem in the west is we have 300 years of people believing in lies about popular consent, the general good, individual sovereignty, and all kinds of made up nonsense designed, just like Marxism, to destabilize stable authorities so that lower ranking people in the hierarchy could get more for themselves than they would otherwise have. It would take a miracle to rewind the average westerner to a Hobbesian mentality. Lucky for the East Asians, absolute authority is much more recent in their cultural memories, which is why they will have an easier time in the coming centuries.
Westerners, liberal and conservative alike, are going to fight, perhaps to their ultimate destruction, against viable forms of government. Hopefully it won't take complete conquest by Islam to snap westerners out of their love affair with Liberalism and democracy.
>>79889730
It's not the right to overthrow the government that I'm most fond of, it's the right not to get fucking killed due to the whims of some lord or the machinations of a faceless bureaucracy.
I'm quite fond of not having my daughter being taken as a concubine or having my second son pulped due to my class making too many babies.
>>79889730
how is it possible to have a middle-class with economic freedom without them promoting subversive ideas of political freedom?
For example I think China is perhaps doing so well because not only are they absolutist politically, but their culture (confucianism etc) has inherently also been against economic freedom to the extreme of considering any kind of merchant the lowest social class.
But now even most "peasants" politically, are essentially merchants economically (think all the tech industry, small business owners etc)
>>79872055
What did he mean by this?
>>79889730
I'd also add that Singapore has a rapidly declining population as it's essentially mostly home to the elite/gentry from other countries. Economically it's strong but socially it's decaying
>>79890131
And how does democracy prevent the government from making your daughter a whore, and drafting your second son to die in a war? At least a King has an interest in his property increasing, not decreasing in value. I'd trust the worst king over the best DMV worker any day.
>>79890253
You kill merchants to try to challenge government authority. You make it illegal to advocate the other-throw of the government, or even the mere devolution of power. Also, the world will probably never return to such a hegemonic state that Europe was singularly in when it became to experiment with popular movements. You don't overthrow the government when there are foreign soldiers at the gates. A multipolar world means people will have to think seriously about their security again, instead of day dream and eat lotuses while fantasizing about alternative forms of government.
There are only two political ideologies in reality: Order and Chaos.
>>79880069
>Jonathan Bowden
Bowden was surprisingly smart.
>>79887247
How is this any more LARPy and weird than socialist utopians and communists that have retarded abstract models of flat social organisation? Commie vegan hippy feminist communes are the leftist equivalent of traditionalism i.e escaping capitalism. The good part about tradition though is that it works.
>>79880622
>colorblind
>not delusionnal
>>79890432
forgot picture
>>79891564
It's only LARPy when people insist that modern authoritarian regimes should somehow 1:1 recreate medieval forms of authority. This would literally require a warlord, some army general, conquering territory by force, and declaring himself king by right. That's probably not going to happen. China imo currently has the most viable authoritarian system. It would be LARPy and stupid of them to try to reinstitute the seat of the Emperor just because The Party isn't as mythical and sexy as ancient Chinese power structures.
>>79891089
What's your take on Trump and such?
Trump seems on one hand like something closer to a monarch but on the other hand, his support comes from disenfranchised lower and middle classes, who see him as "overthrowing an establishment" thus the same liberal attitude nonetheless. Dugin supports him but I really wonder why. I guess simply because of his promise to not be aggressive toward Russia.
>>79872055
>why is /pol/ so afraid of this man?
I have absolutely no idea who that is
>>79891089
And what if it suddenly becomes more profitable or necessary for """"the greater good"""" to commit atrocities on the populus?
And what if the the king is just a fucking nutter? decides that everyone in (x) category is a heathen/counter-revolutionary/traitor?
After all, since we are naught but cattle for our divine masters, we should embrace being killed?
I read an interview in which he said that Poland should disappear .... and baltics and other eastern european countries
>>79891917
Read the thread, m8. He's an author and political philosopher. Loves Julius Evola and Rene Guenon. He has also been called the "man of thought" behind the "man of action" (Putin). He has a lot of influence in the Kremlin. Neocons hate him.
>>79872055
teat
>>79891906
Trump is an 19th century liberal, which is better than a 20th and 21th century liberal. He's not an authoritarian. He's not a traditionalist.
>>79891945
There's not such thing as "the greater good". That concept is what modernists use to justify fucking the population for this reason or that reason. Absolute authorities need not be any more cruel than the typical corporate CEO to his employees. Corporations are absolute monarchies, with a central oversight committee (just like the PRC btw), and they're nowhere near as craven as the average democratic bureaucracy.
>>79891945
Simple test: would you rather work for a fortune 500, or a government agency? Which do you think would suck the life out of you faster?
>>79892576
But in your own words, the PRC is a from of govt we should strive towards. It's literally a giant bureaucracy, the DMV as government.
Corporations don't kill people due to them not being the ruling power. In a corporate state we would see things run for absolute efficiency. Slum full of vagabonds? kill em all and build your new complex. I understand if that is what you are going for then go for it, just don't expect the moral high ground, other than from a utilitarian perspective.
>>79891945
Kek. You are aware that our modern governments have done precisely this time and time again? We dropped nuclear weapons on Japan, killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, for "the greater good." MKUltra tortured American citizens and no one has ever been held accountable for it. Our governments have pushed us into wars the people didn't want - often using propaganda organs to manufacture consent. I don't need to mention what the Bolsheviks and later Stalin did to their people. Plus ça change.
>>79892247
The guy seems to be some kind of authoritarian russian nationalist who longs for the death of his personal Jew, aka "the west".
>>79893357
But under your ideology, killing the cattle is the right of the ruler, while in the current political climate these things are at least known to be shitty, it's not as if people say "oh its okay the president nuked texas those guys were secessionists and it's his right to do as he wishes"
>>79893142
I never claimed any moral high-ground. That would be a rhetorical trick.I care about what works, and what minimizes chaos. Chaos is always more violent than order--trying to manage chaos, doubly so.
Also, in practice, the PRC is much more like a corporation than a bureaucracy. The central committee is small enough to work like a board, and the Secretary like a CEO now that they no longer enforce an official state ideology (the declared communism to no longer be the doctrinal basis of the Party). Even monarchies had civil services. Simply having state employees does not mean you're a bureaucracy. Would you argue that all Corporations are bureaucracies? I think the defining characteristic of a bureaucracy is that real power is held by the apparatchiks, not the directors. The directors hold real power in China.
If this thread has proven anything its that the Fourth Political Theory provokes some very interesting and important topics for discussion.
>>79893142
Also, I don't think PRC style government would work in the west because we're do dedicated to enforcing universalist ideologies, and we demand the appearance of popular consent. Any authoritarian system in the west would inevitably become an indoctrination camp to spread some version of liberalism.
The Chinese had a different starting point, and the modernist equalitarianism of Marxism was the aberration. They're simply returning to their natural hierarchies. The west on the other hand is so far gone that it would default to state enforced equality, and progress (as defined by whomever was in control).
>>79892247
Isn't he one of those "nations are imagined" communities people? So disintegrating those nations and absorbing them into an empire where the real eastern euro organic communities can coalesce into their own spaces sounds a good idea from his point of view no?
