I am asking this from an neutral viewpoint:
Why is capitalism better than socialism?
(I just found this picture and thought it would be fitting. It does not reflect my viewpoint.)
>>79779332
Socialism is a paper tiger, Capitalism is an iron rabbit. It's all psychological really, having the high tax cut from your checks is very demotivating. But when you get your checks and it only has a minor cut you feel a lot better about spending your money.
You don't feel like building something big because you won't make that much more anyway, the more you make the more they take.
It's all about the hivemind really, 315,000 million people all spending their money how they want is much better for the world than a select few rats *cough* I mean politicians spending everyone's money for them
Why is air better than water? You need to be a little more specific if you want (You)s.
>>79779332
In a socialist system, there is almost no incentive to accomplish anything innovative. No incentive to make new tech or medicine. What for? You'll only get a little more money for tonnes more risk.
Name one Socialist country that isn't complete shit.
>inb4 HURR NORDIC COUNTRIES ARE SOCIALIST BECAUSE THEY HAVE WELFARE
They are both shitty enlightenment systems.
>>79780613
Well...
...huh.
>>79779332
Socialism is an invention of the jews and is pushed by the jews religiously in order to create a slave class dependent on the state
Capitalism is an invention of the white man and is embraced by non-parasites
>>79779332
Implicit in all socialist systems, Communism included, is that the collective of people is more important than the individual. This reasoning provides the justification for reducing human rights and intruding on peoples' decisions - they don't matter, the nation matters. It results in an unwillingness to work, to innovate, to create, because whatever you produce will be gathered by the "people" - the government - and redistributed. Your industry and labor belongs to other people, and you in fact belong to other people.
By contrast, Capitalism treats people as individuals and guarantees that the product of their labor and creativity will belong exclusively to them, not to others. It turns out that people are far more motivated to work and think when they know whatever they create will benefit them greatly. Then, they can exchange their creations with others through the medium of trade, enriching everyone.
Where people naturally get offended by this is that, in pure capitalism, some people do get wealthier than others. It turns out there are people who are inherently smarter, more attractive, more athletic, and luckier than others. That means the distribution of wealth will be uneven. Even so, the overall wealth of every member of society under capitalism is enormously better than the same under socialism.
Would you like to know more?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQrrJmlrhNs
>>79781089
Well, shit, if you got more I'm up to read.
>>79779332
Capitalism is the most "free" marketing style. It follow very closely to "You're the master of your fate", the risk is of course, just as you have the chance of making big bucks, you have a good chance of failing as well. It's all about gambling and risk assessment.
Socialism is all about "security over freedom", you won't theoretically starve on the street for failing a business venture, but you won't succeed either because most of your money will be given to the government via high taxes. Socialism and communism are incredibly limited because you can only be what the government wants you to be, there's no space for self thoughts because that would be selfish and harmful to the masses.
As a Taiwanese chinklet, we're more than aware of the rising communist meme around the world. If you publicly support communism in Taiwan, don't be surprise when people lynch you on the street. Only those that have never seen communism before would support it.
The best part about all this is that most people that support communism / socialism are leftist "artist", music student, gender study, humanities, and other waste of time. These are the people that dies first in a socialistic society as they provide no intrinsic values, they're only here because capitalism allowed them to exist.
>>79780613
>>79780613
B-BUT
THATS NOT REAL COMMUNISMMMMM!
>>79781238
>If you publicly support communism in Taiwan, don't be surprise when people lynch you on the street.
This is good, if only we had the same mindset
>>79779332
I make joke to make easier to understand. Please read in broken russian accent for full effect.
In communist Russia, you wait on breadline.
In capitalist pig dog america, bread line waits on you.
It's not perfect system comrade, corruption is everywhere.
But life is generally better in a capitalist country, as there always seems to be excess that spills over from the top.
Maybe not a fair amount, but enough to live comfortably.
Pair that with the chance to better yourself, and become rich pig dog yourself. And things aren't so bad.
Unless you keep electing retards into office, who strip your rights, and make you slaves.
>>79781159
Sure.
This might be better as a question and answer thing, but the root of it is this:
Let's say that you have some apple seeds and an idea to plant an orchard. Why would or wouldn't you?
Well, let's say you plant this orchard, exercising all your labor and time, and then after it's done and apples start to grow, the tribe shows up and says: "You need to help those in need, so we are taking your apples for the common good." This leaves you with a tiny fraction of the apples you planted. Would you still have gone through all the work? Probably not.
Now, let's say you plant the orchard and also build a fence around it. Now, the fruit grows and people show up but, instead of taking it, they pay you for the apples. Or they trade oranges and pears for it. Would you plant it now/ Of course you would. Even better, the knowledge you used to create that orchard can be used by others to plant pear and orange orchards, and now all of society is better off. Naturally, the orchard owners are richer than the people who gather the fruit from the trees, but even the workers have access to fruit they did not have before.
Which society would you like to live in?
https://youtu.be/rPILhiTJv7E
>>79779332
Havana looks comfy in that pic desu. I would hate Hon Kong because I'm an aspie shut-in.
>>79781159
Here's a rider's digest version of Yaron's longwinded explanation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AndrSAkaSw
>>79779332
its not just that "capitalism is better than socialism", baka
theres more than that, capitalism needs to work towards a strong national-export oriented industry and without strong institutions and education its moot anyways
>>79780613
>>79781316
>>79779332
Scenario 1: Guy is really bad at managing the industry is in charge of. Industry fails, government dumps good money after bad to try and revive it. Death spiral ensues.
Scenario 2: Guy1 is really bad at managing the industry he is in charge of. Guy2 is very good at managing the industry. Guy1's industry fails, Guy2's industry grows and eventually takes over.
Socialism attempts to put people "with good moral fiber" in charge of making the economy grow.
Capitalism puts people who have been proven to be good at making the economy grow in charge of making the economy grow.
>>79782009
The Soviet Union fell because of fudge pops
>>79782009
This was in a Randalls in Houston.
>>79782068
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOBFMMbUFI8
>>79782009
>socialism: everyone makes enough money to buy the goods at the grocery store
>capitalism: no one can afford the goods in the grocery store because the CEOs and the big central government take all of the money in the form of high salary and high taxes
Socialism wins bub.
>>79782360
You are literally shitposting from a computer a capitalist invented, which has been reduced in price from many thousands of dollars to only a couple of hundred, and you say that people can't afford food.
Here's a (you)
>>79782360
>socialism: everyone makes enough money to buy the goods at the grocery store
> goods at the grocery store
>>79782360
>implying there'd be goods at the grocery store
>>79779332
Redundancy. Capitalism, or more correctly the free market, has more redundancy than a system where everything is centralized into the government. In the free market, a bad harvest isn't too bad because there's always more suppliers to choose from. In a socialist economy, you're hoping that the government will never screw up. Ever. Because if it does, there's no other recourse.
>>79782360
Socialists can't afford to fill their stores with goods because they are taxed to death
Capitalists have full stores because they made a profit on the goods sold and kept said profit
>>79782360
Look at all this food people can afford in a socialist utopia
>Socialism is state spending or equal pay
Uh, but i guess retards will never learn...
But arguing agaisnt socialism here on /pol/ is a moot point, because it ends up in a complete circlejerk. Try to go to socialist forums to learn more
>>79782724
I know. The shelves are empty. Everyone bought all of the food instead of letting it sit on the shelves.
>>79782753
fuck off lefty pol
>>79782724
>Venezuela
>Socialist
>>79779332
Socialism is good if it's restricted to the people who is contributing to it, ie. NATIONAL SOCIALISM.
>>79782832
Just for you then ;)
>>79782949
>doesn't know what national socialism is
>>79782360
Just curious. what do you think Billionaires even do with their money? Sure sometimes you have an idiot who stumbles backwards into their fortune and spends it all on Baseball teams and Space Programs (in other words a lot of people are making money off this idiot), but most of the time they use their money in order to grow their influence over the market. In other words they spend their money employing people.
>>79779332
Try figuring out what to do with the countless amounts of resources and their multiple uses from a top down perspective.
>>79782805
are you for fucking real?
>>79782753
/pol/ doesn't like having their views challenged. see >>79782832
also i got perambanned from cripple /pol/ for disagreeing with someone. lmfao.
>>79782753
Yeah, yeah, it's about state or collective ownership of the means of production and all.
Thing is that when you remove market competition that way, you remove the incentives to provide goods and services, and do so efficiently. When a company has political protection and state backing like that, why would they try to serve customers? They don't have to. Same reason why you get poor customer service from the government in any country, or any company that has a monopolistic position.
>>79779332
here's the tldr
>>79783087
>Venezuela suffers from frequent blackouts
>It must be because they are so rich, they use more power now!
>>79783241
Must be all those free Plasma TVs.
>>79783179
>Thing is that when you remove market competition that way, you remove the incentives to provide goods and services, and do so efficiently. When a company has political protection and state backing like that, why would they try to serve customers? They don't have to. Same reason why you get poor customer service from the government in any country, or any company that has a monopolistic position.
kek, So people no longer are hungry in a socialist society?
>when you remove market competition that way, you remove the incentives to provide goods and services
source?
>>79783019
I do. But thank you for your concern.
Capitalism has produced so much wealth that the biggest health problem for people living in poverty is obesity. Meanwhile in socialist paradises people are fighting in the streets over dog meat and toilet paper.
>>79783397
So why in the world do you think Nazi germany had anything to do with Socialsim?
>>79783471
I bet you can't even name me 3 socialist societies
>>79782805
This is a very well written joke
Socialism breeds incredible corruption and destroys incentive to produce.
>>79779332
Capitalism is more natural. Products and services tend to flow faster from the source to the needy. Businesses have to be constantly improving to compete so the economy runs more efficiently. (If I understood correctly).
>>79783765
Because capitalist societies are not corrupt at all
>>79783810
Not at all, in the nature (tribal human societies) the spoils of the hunt are distributed by everyone, the tribe land is not owned privately, everyone works towards common goals...
>>79779332
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1621575896
>>79783994
Corruption is handled better in a Capitalist country where competition mitigates its effects than a socialist country where power is concentrated in an oligarchy of party elite
>>79783524
Because they did a socialism reform in terms of Öffa.
>>79784170
>socialist country where power is concentrated in an oligarchy of party elite
Source?
> Capitalist country where competition mitigates its effects
Because there aren't oligarchies in capitalist nations. When will you start to actually arguing instead of spouting memes
>>79784260
And in what way is that socialism?
>>79784316
>Source?
every socialist country to ever exist
>Because there aren't oligarchies in capitalist nations. When will you start to actually arguing instead of spouting memes
There are oligarchies in the United States and we recognize that they do more harm than good
>>79782360
How would CEOs make money if nobody can afford to buy their products???
There is an incentive in capitalism to keep your product affordable to the masses. That incentive is income.
>>79784489
>every socialist country to ever exist
Like?
>There are oligarchies in the United States and we recognize that they do more harm than good
So what makes you think oligarchies are a problem of socialism when they exist in capitalism?
>>79784458
They spread wealth (to öffa) and created work by proxy (nationalistic work) to people.
Also: It's nationalistic SOCIALISM you twerk.
>>79784527
>How would CEOs make money if nobody can afford to buy their products???
Exporting
>>79784624
Is progressive taxation socialism?
>>79784615
>Like?
USSR, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, China, North Korea
>So what makes you think oligarchies are a problem of socialism when they exist in capitalism?
Oligarchies are not inherent in capitalism
In socialism the state is the oligarchy
>>79779332
>Why is capitalism
>better than socialism?
Because kikes hijacked eternal socialism, every good society in history was socialist.
>>79784624
>Sweden yes
>>79781050
Socialism isn't a Jewish invention, Socialism is nature.
>>79785050
>Socialism is nature
Equality is not nature
Nature would be inequality and social hierarchy
>>79784876
>North Korea
>Socialist
>China
>Anything other then a mad man in charge of a country
>Vietnam
>Socialist
top kek
I don't know Laos, but i think there aren't any socialist who do not denounce Pol Pot regime
>USSR, Cuba
Under a very broad definition, maybe
>Oligarchies are not inherent in capitalism
Any capitalist regime who do not have a oligarchy?
>In socialism the state is the oligarchy
And in capitalism it isn't because?
>>79784749
But I thought that nobody could afford to buy their product..........
>>79785147
And socialism is not total equality you dumb dumb
>>79785147
Retard, socialism has nothing to do with Marxist "equality" it has to do with the well being of the group above the individual bullshit, laws are socialism, rights to the people is socialism etc..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS4pmfLWiz8
More pay, more rights, more power, more respect to the people.
>>79785230
Other rich countries do. And depending on the product, the market does not need to be large, and inflated prices are beneficial.
Capitalism is the economic expression of a political system founded in the principles of individual liberty and property rights.
Do you want to have liberty? Do you want to own property? Or do you want to be a slave?
>>79785392
>Another neo-nazi thinking germany was anything remotely similar with socialism
>>79785467
Have the freedom to be paid 10cents for eternity.
>>79785467
>Capitalism is the economic expression of a political system founded in the principles of individual liberty and property rights.
source?
>dat appeal to emotion
>>79785555
>I can tolerate your marxist socialism
>you can't tolerate my true socialism
Just kill yourself.
>>79779332
Capitalism: The natural tendency of people to exchange goods to their own benefit.
Socialism: Heavy handed centralization of power in which the elite take other people's stuff and hand it out as they see fit.
They aren't particularly exclusive.
>>79785627
>source
Do you even speak English? Christ, why do people bother talking to you?
>>79785555
I do not call myself nazi, I am a national socialist.
>>79779332
Capitalism operates within the bounds of reality.
Socialism tries to impose itself as the new reality, and directly counters reality in several ways, such as requiring people to both sacrifice their lives for the common good and yet still be ready and able to work the next day.
>>79785627
if you say source one more time to something you can easily google...you are going to win a first class trip on pinochet airlines
>>79785555
If someone calls themselves National Socialist but violates these rules he isn't anything to me.
1: We do not seek any enemies in the world, and our revolution does not go against the interests of any nation.
2: We do not seek to destroy nations.
3: We do not hate other races as a default.
4: We seek out friendship and alliances all through out the world.
5: We are bound to help the peoples struggle for racial freedom and racial sovereignty.
6: We do not tolerate Marxism therefore Marxism must be exterminated.
7: We demand racial purity as the first priority of states within our control.
8: We do not seek war although we do not fear war, we only wish for rationality and respect for our will to be maintained.
9: We do not tolerate anyone going against the interests of our goals and truths.
10: We do not tolerate hatred without jury to fellow comrades.
11: We do not tolerate the unauthorized to tell us what we can or can't do.
12: We do not tolerate warmongers, and criminals.
13: We do not tolerate anyone breaking these rules.
National Socialist international constitution for unity of National Socialist nations
>>79785985
What the fuck are you talking about.
>>79780008
fpbp
>>79786091
Shh, he doesn't understand that socialism is even more mundane than capitalism
>>79780263
Progress leads to degeneracy
Case 1: USA
>>79785008
No, it's was a plan to escape the jewish-made currency system, which makes wealth by interest to the bankers and not to the people.
>>79780613
nazi germany was breddy gud lad
>>79785807
>Capitalism: The natural tendency of people to exchange goods to their own benefit.
And what m akes you think that people can't exchange goods in a socialist society?
>>79785994
source?
>>79786052
>We do not tolerate warmongers
Hahha, the irony
>>79779332
I just want to say that that picture of Hong Kong in 2010 looks fucking cool
>>79780263
A socialist economy increases positive innovation.
>>79786198
Nothing more mundane than the vain desire to control everything, right? At least for a socialist.
>>79786393
>A socialist economy
What is this?
>>79786500
What are you talking about, national socialists care about the true rights of the people.
>>79786500
>Nothing more mundane than the vain desire to control everything
And capitalists don't want to control everything?
These things come too early
As we make technological advancements
And automation fills nearly all jobs
And robots are perfected
We have to change the way we think, the idea that you have to work in society to earn your house, food, etc.
Things will change, theres no way to avoid it, robots & automation will cause some sort of new system to emerge
>>79786529
a bunch of people starving in a ditch
>>79786225
No, Jews lead to that. We were free market and capitalistic far longer than the 1960s hippy Jew commie revolution
>>79786225
Liberalism leads to degeneracy.
>>79786592
why did you change your trip you pinko faggot
>>79786529
Pay decided by the state, mandatory vacations, work towards giving everyone houses, work towards giving everyone farms, work towards giving everyone guns, work towards giving everyone means of production etc..
Capitalism is simply the freedom for capital to exploit.
>>79786620
this
>>79786641
>ebin maymay
>>79786374
The fact that socialism requires that the government control all means of production. Trading of goods and services on an individual level must be banned to accomplish this.
>>79786734
The constant strawmna was getting tiring. This one suits me well, but doesn't give me that much (You)'s
>>79786643
>capitalistic
USA was Socialist, aka We the people.
>>79780613
Dumbass. You're living in one.
>>79782360
>He can't afford beans and rice from Walmart on a minimum wage job after taxes
lmao
>>79786918
>he fell for the low standards and "deserve" for easy work
>>79779332
the Nordic countries seem fine
they are democratic socialist tho, it's not socialism
>>79786643
Pre 60's capitalism was great. The reason it was great was that the rich were heavily taxed and therefore monopolies were harder to obtain. Taxing the rich makes better capitalism, not communism
>>79786768
>Pay decided by the state, mandatory vacations, work towards giving everyone houses, work towards giving everyone farms
This is what the nazis tried to do, but failed
But that is still far away from socialism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
>>79786776
>The fact that socialism requires that the government control all means of production.
Nope, that is state capitalism/state socialism.
Socialism is when the workers own the means of production
>>79786776
The fact that socialism requires that the government control all means of production
Who told you that?
>>79786592
Nope! In fact, controlling everything is the fastest way to render a business completely uncompetitive. Control only the things vital to the product, and let other individuals handle everything else however they want. You can't even comprehend such delegation, can you?
>>79779332
>>79786768
Actually, no. Socialism is State ownership of the means of production. What you've described all exist in Capitalist economies, and most were pioneered by Capitalists. Socialism is not "being nice," it's the government confiscating control of industry from the people who own it.
>>79787066
>Nope, that is state capitalism/state socialism.
>Socialism is when the workers own the means of production
>workers own the means of production
you don't even know what that means
>>79787066
>I decide what is socialism
>inc 50 varients which all where anti nationalists as roots and differed in every economic way possible
Fuck off.
>>79787098
>In fact, controlling everything is the fastest way to render a business completely uncompetitive
Are you stupid? If you control everything you can deny competitors acess to raw materials
>>79787111
> Socialism is State ownership of the means of production
No, workers own the means of production
>>79779332
There are no price signals for central planners to use to determine the scarcity of resources since there are no market pressures. Therefore, resources aren't allocated efficiently and often lead to shortages. Also, capitalism necessarily relies on the mutual benefit of voluntary exchange. If you don't stand to benefit, you won't waste your time with buying/selling something. So in essence, in order to prosper, you have to be the best at servicing other people's needs.
>>79787185
So enlighten me
>>79787219
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
I'm not making anything up
>>79787104
right after nafta was signed. this really makes you think
>>79783994
Sorry, I didn't mean natural like in primitive, I meant "natural" like in "the most thermodinamically likely/stable state for a system".
Of course,human society is a lot more complex, which leads me to add, that socialists have had very good ideas that, integrated into a hybrid economy model, have done everyone good (like, workers have better conditions, which makes them happier and in turn more productive).
Probably socialism to some degree is the best system for humanity right now, but you should stay away from full Communism, like history has proven again and again.
>>79787385
>wikipedia decides it
>>79786302
>nazi germany
>socialist
oh boy am i laffen
>>79779332
Under socialism put V1, V2, and ME262.
Under capitalism put 150 smoldering Sherman tanks and 1 smoldering Panther.
>>79787573
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS4pmfLWiz8
Soviet Union wasn't socialist if Germany wasn't socialist.
>>79787424
>Probably socialism to some degree is the best system for humanity right now
Not yet, but when automation kicks in much more seriously
>>79787459
>Wikipedia does not have sources
I bet you never read a scientific paper or anything similar. How is highschool Clettus?
>I bet you never read a scientific paper
It's the nazi guy, of course he never read anything worthwhile
>>79787573
>implying it wasnt
You're a special kind of retard, aren't you?
>>79787665
>Soviet Union wasn't socialist
In a strict definition, no, USSR wasnt socialist
>>79787798
Then Socialism has never been tried :/
>>79787796
>He doesn't know what the night of long knives was
>>79787573
Moron. NSDAP- National Socialistische Arbeiderspartei.
Look up the Nazis social policies- real fucking leftists.
>>79787798
I am still National Socialist under my own definition of Socialism.
>>79787846
Tito Yugo was a nice example desu.
>>79787066
> that's state capitalism
We have an honest-to-dumbass Patrick Star here. No point in any further discussion, enjoy your inevitable decline to eating grass and dirt.
>>79787907
All workers held the means of production?
anybody got the .gif of patrick star saying venezuela is not real socialism
>>79787898
Ok then
>>79787991
Yugos said to me that yes, actual workers had relative control over the means of production. How actually that is true i dunno, i asked for literature, but he didn't knew anything in english
>>79788172
yes, first replies
>>79779332
Well lets use HDI as a metric. Pick some remaining socialist countries, and compare against populations of similar size in capitalist countries. What do you find?
There's not many left to do that with, however. Most have hybridized and have moved to reasonably open markets and personal ownership eg businesses and property. This should also tell you something.
Have a look at this to see how I personally see the "benefits" of Socialist economies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGCz6xxiw
As far as living under the system, well it's hard to say since I didn't have to but starving etc aside here's a Soviet story about getting a car in the bloc:
http://hooniverse.com/2011/12/28/buying-a-brand-new-car-in-the-communist-ussr/
Worlds apart when I contrast with obtaining my first car (one of 4 at our place) by working in the school holidays picking fruit when I was 16. Bought her for a few thousand.
>>79788172
I don't have that retarded as fuck definition of "workers owning the means of production" as socialism, my definition of socialism the the common good above the individual good, and all the resources of the state are used to develop the people.
>>79788218
He forgot to mention the huge debt Yugoslavia accumulated
>>79779332
because in order to maximize utility, a country needs to allocate its resources efficiently, or there will be a dead weight loss
>>79787991
Yep, and then they discovered that "hell is other people." When all of a demographic controls something, it really means the government controls it. Government is literally what a group of people decide to do together, after all, and the most powerful, popular, and ruthless voice always gets to lead it, one way or another.
>>79779332
Capitalism respects human rights. Socialism does not.
>>79786903
>Canada
>not complete shit
>>79788298
>Well lets use HDI as a metric. Pick some remaining socialist countries
Well, Cuba has the highest HDI (or top 5, i don't remember) in the caribean.
>>79788410
LOL
And I'm not even a socialist.
>>79788410
Capitalism is simply the ability to generate profit at any cost, it is counterproductive to the rights of people.
Socialism in my definition is for rights of the people above profit.
>>79787896
je kan het niet eens goed in het duits schrijven. waarom zou ik luisteren naar een mongool?
>>79787796
>(((az))) quotes
schöne quelle
>>79787665
nothing in this is socialist ya dingdong
you're all retards for thinking national socialism means socialism
>>79783594
Venezuela Cuba USSR North Korea
Not many exist because societies run on socialism fail.
>>79787628
Ns isnt socialism fucktard
The s was added to make plebs comfortable.
>>79785050
Survival of the fittest is nature you fucking moron.
>>79788647
retard, Germany was more socialist than USSR or Yugo.
>>79788498
Nordic countries are basically best in everything though...
THEY ARE ALSO WHITE THOUGH, SO....
>>79780613
USSR in its heydey wasn't terrible, but their shit economy let them down
>>79788651
the well being of the ant colony is nature, common good above individual.
>>79782360
Socialism was proven to be mathematically and axiomatically impossible 100 years ago.
https://mises.org/library/socialism-economic-and-sociological-analysis
Tl;dr : You end up with shortages if you don't let prices freely fluctuate. Prices & profits act as a signal sent by consumers to producers in order to calibrate production quantities and desires. Without profit, you wind up with a Venezuela type situation with shortages everywhere and a starving public.
>>79779332
Philosophically, Is a man not entitled to the sweat on their brow? Why shouldn't I have the right to work harder and gain more?
In practice, a free market simply functions more efficiently than socialism.
>>79788775
we are not ants, retard
>socialism is good if people are white
>capitalism is good if people are not white
Why don't socialists just make their own communities?
Why don't you start your own enterprises? Your own co-ops, your own cities?
Why seize le means of production? Why so violent?
You realize I wouldn't have a problem with you, if it wasn't for the lack of pluralist sentiment? I'm happy to coexist, if possible. But you make it impossible.
>>79780659
Fuck off, Reactionary Swine
>>79788815
Philosophically, Is a man not entitled to the sweat on their brow? Why shouldn't I have the right to work harder and gain more?
Socialism doesn't take away the right for you to gain more.
>>79783524
>what is national SOCIALIST workers party of Germany
>>79788847
not at all-- look how shitty Greece is. Or Argentina.
Socialism is impossible (mathematically/economically) and immoral, regardless of race.
>>79781050
It was devised by Jews because Jews were marginalised throughout history. The people who opposed Jews were ,by mere coincidence, right wing. Thus, the Jews constructed an antithesis in the mid 19th century.
Keep in mind, the majority of commie jews back then advocated fro the destruction of the Jews as a race, merging them with the common citizenry.
>>79788334
>debt is a thing exclusive to socialist countries
source?
>>79788622
>North Korea
>Venezuela
lol
>>79789060
debt is a thing exclusive to countries that spend their budget on social welfare programs
>>79788864
>Why don't you start your own enterprises? Your own co-ops, your own cities?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
>>79788947
What is the democratic republic of Korea?
>>79788927
Depends what sort of socialism we're discussing here.
>>79787390
And Havana is the capital of a country under a trade embargo since the 50s. Trading does wonders developing a country.
>>79789318
Cuba trades with the rest of the free world
not an argument
>>79782360
>>79789233
>debt is a thing exclusive to countries that spend their budget on social welfare programs
No, i had debts to my friends, and i didn0t had a social welfare program
>>79789417
you are not a country
>>79781050
Socialism is Hitler's creation, capitalism and usury is pure kike.
Kill yourself, whether you are an idiot or a shill. Seriously, Hitler would gas your fucking ass.
>>79786888
Waste of trips
WE THE PEOPLE as in government, not control of goods.
>>79779332
Look at the results. Neither is an ideal system, but capitalism has done us (particularly the United States) very well so far and seems to be the best path forward for the time being. When countries try to change it and introduce something like socialism, it never succeeds and only hurts the country. I hold out hope that technological developments will one day make Hitler's dream a reality, and to me capitalism is the best means for achieving that end.
>>79788647
You're a fucking neocon idiot brainwashed by bootlicking capitalist kikesuckers.
Kill yourself, you kike puppet.
>>79789534
gas yourself parasite
>>79789147
This meme never gets old. Keep on hoping for your sociaist utopia. Maybe when nation states start having fewer than 50 members you'll get your wish.
>>79789288
I am aware that co-ops exist. My question is: What are you still bitching about? Why do you still advocate for government force? Why don't all of you go and make your own Mondragon Corporation and your own communities etc etc?
>>79779332
Socialism (collectivism) is a power vacuum so oligarchies form, corruption is rife and turf wars ensue.
Socialism = stagnation, failure and death.
Capitalism is freedom.
Capitalism will eventually break away from being captured and exploited by oligarchies and corruption as we move towards more decentralized forms of technology.
>>79789719
Fuck your jew mother, you fucking idiot kkk tier southern trashbag. You're a disgrace to the white race.
Fucking jew lover.
>>79789288
Not an argument
>>79789462
Then what is your doubt? Japan is a capitalist country and as a debt of over 200% of it's annual GDP
>>79789740
I'm not. I'm just trying to dispel some myths people have of socialism
>>79789921
ok shlomo
>>79782890
> implying the socialist party that dominates venezuela is less qualified to identify their socialism than you.
socialism ALWAYS results in venezuela (or cuba or NoKo, or china, or russia, or east germany, etc etc...)
the apparatchiks have plenty of luxuries, the peasants starve
every fucking time.
>>79789940
>>79781597
isn't it just crazy dawg how a whole apple tree jsut comes from a tiny ass lil seeed lmao
i mean look at the size of the thing heheheh
>>79789901
You are a fucking moron.
Tell me, why did socialist Germany emerged from the Great Depression as the strongest economy in Europe?
How did they go from destitute to 50 years ahead of the allies in less than a decade?
You're a fucking idiot, and I suggest you stop letting the jew tell you that debt is a health base for an economy.
I would blow your brains out myself if you weren't on that shithole rock at the asshole of the earth.
>>79790018
>> implying the socialist party that dominates venezuela is less qualified to identify their socialism than you.
Not me. Everyone outside of america knows Venezuela is not socialist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
Read a little of the above link, and then tell me how Venezuela fits in
>>79788766
No.
The only """""socialist""""*** country that had good quality of life was Yugoslavia.
>>79783994
39 posts all the same
> "that wasnt real socialism"
> scoff, but provide no counterpoint
> demand evidence, then refuse to accept evidence
> prepare your next "that wasnt real socialism" post
>>79790195
Germany wasn't socialist
>>79789901
Except that's not how the free market economy of which capitalism creates works. Capitalism prefers centralization and economies of scale to make things more efficient and more productive. Capitalism will always move towards the most efficient and effective way to do things of which include: mass economies, interconnected economies, centralization, outsourcing, and economies of scale.
Anyone who says that capitalism moves towards de-centralization and local markets is a retard that doesn't understand how capitalist markets work, or an an-cap (which are the same thing teebeeech)
>>79790195
>why did socialist Germany emerged from the Great Depression as the strongest economy in Europe?
meme
>How did they go from destitute to 50 years ahead of the allies in less than a decade?
Absolutely meme. Britain was ahead of germany in everything, mate.
>>79780008
This is why taxing the dumb poor with their disposable income is the worst idea. Raise the no tax bracket all the way to 50-70k depending on the cost of living in your country.
You can even make the money back with tariffs, because they'll spend like stupid.
But yeah, hit the nail:
>demotivating
Socialism literally disincentivises success, it literally persuades you to be mediocre. It's the system of people without the confidence that they can succeed. Society must accept some natural eugenics.
Capitalism with a priority to the poor is purely about competition, the strong and intelligent have the most to gain, but in this political climate they're the first to be silenced and will be told they're not high enough in the oppression Olympics to qualify for an opinion.
>>79790195
Get a clue you brainless marxist fuckwit.
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=984
>>79790344
>> demand evidence, then refuse to accept evidence
what evidence?
>>79785392
you really are retarded.
socialism is defined by it's State Collectivism
The State makes most decisions for you
The State owns EVERYTHING including the people
The State is always right
The State doesnt tolerate dissent or conflicting viewpoints
The State ensures your "co-operation" with slave labour camps "re-education" and the threat of violent death if you resist The State's demands
The State is run by ONE PARTY, no other political parties or opinions allowed.
this is particularly true ofr "National Socialists" (like stalin mussolini and hitler) who demand all who fall under their control adhere to their very narrow form of marxism to the exclusion of all else.
>>79790347
Your mom's pussy is red communist.
An entire Panzer Army couldn't plug her Fulda gap.
>>79790195
>Marxists claiming Nazi success
What what what?
That's nationalism, when you're effected by a global crisis that actually has little to do with your own nation, protectionism and nationalism become incredibly sane policies.
>>79790167
I guess you could say
irmyt
>>79780008
FPBP
>>79790881
no.
>>79779332
Capitalism is the basic law of reality.
Socialism is nonsense.
>>79790385
Shill detected.
You may as well say the sky is redoing.
You are not worthy of human interaction, which is why you dwell in your mom's basement.
>>79787066
you really are deluded.
socialism is defined by The State
you are talking about Communism
unfortunately you cant get to Communism without going through the spanking machine of The Authoritarian Socialist State and The Dictatorship Of The Proletariat
read ANYTHING by marx then you will realize how utterly retarded you are.
>>79790418
>I have no arguement, much like my ancestor criminals in front of the English magistrate before they got fucked off to abbo island
Great story m8.
>>79787385
> wikipedia
> written by various assholes like you who never read marx, but have lots of opinions on marx's ideas
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/
read this and then you might realize how utterly WRONG your post-modern re-interpretations of marxism are
>>79780263
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Russian_innovation#.C2.A0Soviet_Union
>>79787573
eat a dick aquafresh.
nazi germany WAS socialist
The State "nationalized" every industry and put party apparatchiks in charge of them
Example: herman georing was in charge of ALL industries throughout germany, and that fat fuck had never run a business in his life.
goering's ONLY qualification was being hitler's buddy and loyal dogsbody.
>>79790386
Which is a reason why I personally find tax regimes such as the negative tax income are perhaps the better arrangement you can have if you MUST have an income tax.
Making your currency have demurrage is a better approach to the same problem without the need of a massive tax collecting agency that makes everyone hate you, but that has it's own administrative nightmares.
Increasing the velocity of money is the one monetary policy one should support.
>>79790239
according to Das Kapital, venezuela IS socialist.
wikipedia can say anything any asshole writes in it.
dont try to lecture me, you dont even know the difference between collective communism and authoritarian socialism
>>79781089
>people are generally better off under capitalism than under socialism
Go to Haiti or the Philippines and tell them that.
>capitalism gives labor product and creativity to working people
Not true. The product of labor goes to those who own the means of production, e.g. factory owners.
>you belong to other people under socialism
That's bullshit and you know it.
>>79791059
> no
so why dont you explain what socialism is then?
perhaps all the various attempts to make it work, simply failed because they lacked your brilliant insight.
share with us how socialism is NOT authoritarian state control of "the means of production" and single party rule.
>>79790358
But that's wrong. The fact that there is some centralization doesn't mean it's a crux of the nature of capitalism, but rather one of the many ways business adapt to regulations.
For the ur example, consider Standard Oil. Standard Oil was, and perhaps remains, the largest company to have ever existed, having presence in pretty much every crook and cranny that someone might have used oil. Using that logic, Standard Oil should have absorbed all it's competitors and destroyed all local competitors, which none of that happened. In fact, before it got disbanded, Standard Oil was facing more competitors than it did when the business began, and despite its enormous economy of scales it could not kill them off, or make offers which made it worth selling. Similar things happened, with railroads, steel, car manufacturing, and many, many other industrial fields in the USA, were a large competitor did, at times, arrive but if left free of regulation and restrains in competiton, more not less competitors would begin to appear to fulfill whatever niche, market, or local condition the larger animal is unwilling to fulfill.
That's the beauty of capitalism, all paths will be taken and if a business field isn't, you have a good indication there's some government intervention from behaving like it has when there were less.
>>79779332
Any rational person supports a mixed economic policy that keeps both extremes out of the loop.
>>79789299
>>79788927
Not really, all socialism demand you sacrifice part of the value of your sweat in favour of others who are unable, unwilling, or unskilled at it.
That's the core of socialism, setting restraints upon how much you can be worth so that others benefit from the excess worth involved, regardless of how truly deserving they are of it.
>Only those that have never seen communism before would support it.
I guess that's why millions of former Soviets and Yugoslavs long for the old days.
>leftist "artists"
>musicians
>le ebin gender studies meme students
>humanities
>wastes of time
wew lad
>they die first
>implying even the fucking USSR didn't have advanced artistic and cultural circles
>>79792126
> haiti
a country full of ignorant niggers, run by one autocratic kleptocracy after another
they couldnt succeed under ANY economic system
> the pillipeens
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
40 years of the autocratic kleptocracy of marcos, and 80 years of constant islamo-marxist insurgency is not the problem, it's capitalism's failure
clearly capitalism sucks if Pete next door drives a nice car to his job at an accountancy firm, while you ride around in a beat up 85 corrolla to buy crack with your welfare check.
>>79781597
Socialism isn't necessarily about 99% of something being taken away. It's about (in your example) the orchard workers themselves having control of the orchard and their working conditions and pay.
>>79792178
Protip: you can't.
>>79782360
>b-b-but n-n-nobody ever misses out in capitalist dreamland! they must deserve it for being lazy fucks!! commie!11!!!!!
>>79792405
early US was as pure capitalist as it comes, and we didn't even have federal income tax until the early 1900s
things worked out pretty well
>>79781767
Thanks for the videos and explanations.
>>79792405
>Rational people are the ones that agree with my opinion that a mixed economic policy that keeps both extremes out of the loop is best
FTFY. Eat shit and compromise.
>>79791897
Negative income tax has some interesting aspects, it's much more refined than basic income, but the first step is to stop taxing the poorest people.
>Increasing the velocity of money is the one monetary policy one should support.
Absolutely, which is why I wouldn't touch middle class tax as they typically invest instead of spend. You're essentially taxing banks, investment and real estate at that stage, which isn't great but is a non issue against monetary velocity.
>demurrage
This wouldn't sell in Australian politics and has already failed labor. That's why tariffs are necessary, on paper you argue you gain what you lose, because so little tax is raised from low earners. In reality, the insanity of their disposable income will mean the tax raised from tariffs will be higher than "predicted."
It's a policy that sounds good when you're campaigning and turns out even better.
>>79792701
>orchard workers themselves having control of the orchard and their working conditions and pay.
They'd have that if they were the ones who raised the funding and supplies necessary to create the orchard.
Why aren't the orchard's owners entitled to the fruit of their labor that went into creating the orchard in the first place?
Why don't the workers use their labor to run their own orchard?
Why do communists and socialists always approach economic scenarios as if they were in a vaccum?
>>79780263
This is not true, 1) there would be government grants in almost any version of socialism, 2) if you make a firm to sell your innovation you'd also benefit from it, 3) the greatest innovations don't usually come from people trying to make a profit.
>>79780613
Rojava.
>>79781050
>implying Germany wouldn't have been better off if Luxembourg won
wew
>>79783471
>muh (mixed-market dependent on oil) Venezuela!!!1!!11!!!!!
>implying that malnutrition and obesity can't coexist
>>79793474
>the greatest innovations don't usually come from people trying to make a profit.
>>79783765
>incredible corruption
The three most corrupt politicians in human history were staunchly anti-leftist despots backed by the USA and Britain.
>>79793047
>Negative income tax has some interesting aspects, it's much more refined than basic income, but the first step is to stop taxing the poorest people.
Which is something I agree with, the income tax should really not touch anyone who is currently unable to hire a tax manager, and a tax system should be so simple and straightforward, the position of tax manager shouldn't exist in the first place.
>Absolutely, which is why I wouldn't touch middle class tax as they typically invest instead of spend. You're essentially taxing banks, investment and real estate at that stage, which isn't great but is a non issue against monetary velocity.
Eh, there's a reason I don't like income tax: even if you raise the level of taxes to only touch them so they feel tax grants to investments will be a better choice, it still hits the low middle class much harder than the high middle class, where as forcing spending or investing will adjust to whatever economic level better.
>This wouldn't sell in Australian politics and has already failed labor.
First, let me say I agree, small, reasonable tariffs with no protectionist intent (aka, not for specific products or the such) is indeed one of the better "taxes" to have, with the issues of compliance and it's ultimately regressive nature being important to remember. That said, what do you mean demurrage failed Labour?
>>79793446
I do have to admit that if people were taught more about cooperatives, money management, and the such, everyone but rentseekers, but you are right, there's no justification for saying "that man didn't provide labour to the orchard, so he doesn't deserve anthing, screw the fact he paid for it."
>>79793642
>Venezuela
>mixed-market
Pick one.
>>79781974
hahaha epic meme le upboat XDD
>>79792405
Socialism isn't anything a government does.
>>79792884
That's just because we had a general labor shortage that made capitalists pay employees according to how much profit was made.
>>79792126
> means of production
A fucking Tablet and printer are now means of production....the outcome of the trade is defined by the voluntary interactions of both parties according to their time preference and subjective values.
As Thomas Sowell would say wealth isn't created until workers and employers reconcile their conflicting claims.
>>79785203
>inb4 LE NO TROO SGOTSMAN XDDDDDD
There are people on this board who think there's no difference between Pol Pot and fucking Salvador Allende.
>>79793745
... I am trying to think who is more corrupt than Mugabe, the hole in one wonder, and Chavez.
>>79793977
One got enough power to kill people while the other one just got enough power to starve them?
>>79786776
>state
>not workers
>>79781089
What utter bullshit
>>79781159
Capitalists hierarchies require that individuals give themselves up to their firms or their states. Read Rousseau or Stirner or Bookchin, there is a long tradition of libertarian/individualist socialist thinkers.
pic related.
>>79782360
>Free market doesn't cater to people that don't understand what goods, supplies, needs, demands, and profits are.
Nobody is that stupid. You DON'T need a government to moderate all money and everything else that happens. The government is literally, 100%, as trustworthy as everyone else.
Would you believe a farmer that claims he can do any snowboardingtrick without failure, even though he has never snowboarded, or read about snowboarding?
Would you trust your government to tell you how to spend your money, aka your things; money you rightfully own, and earned? Would you trust a government worker to do your job as well your own? Do you trust that the government will always use your tax money honestly, and how they promised they would?
What do the farmer and the government official have in common? They're both 100% human. Human is flawed.
Go watch the Stanford prison study by Philip zimbardo, and see how the average homosapiens act when they have a role that has control. It's natural for people to be that way.
Socialism and communism was written before modern psychology and many other educational discoveries. It's an outdated idea. Even theoretically, psychology proves communism to be incorrect. It doesn't even work on paper.
