Alright, Capitalism has clearly run it's course. Jews now control most of the modern world. Time to give Communism another shot.
>B-but muh purges
There's literally nothing wrong with purges
>But C-communism doesn't work :,(
But capitalism does? Who told you that, the bought and paid for public officials?
>But m-muh surplus super markets
If you really think 30 brands of breakfast cereal is worth your dignatiy as a worker, you deserve to be purged
Thread Theme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U06jlgpMtQs
>>79764817
>Communism works
When will you idiots learn?
The problem is not capitalism. The problem is social market economy with high taxes and a big state. It goes against the laws of nature and free market capitalism
>>79765218
>The Free Market Meme
Literally retarded
>>79765380
Just because they're without a state doesn't mean they're without, religion, a constitution and a king with limited powers. Your system has millions and millions and millions of inevitable problems that can never be solved, while my system has potential to work without any problems whatsoever
>>79765851
>Not regulating business
>No inevitable problems
Alrighty, friend. Forget the fact that Marx predicted the political-economic environment of the US today like 150 years ago. Purely coincidental!
>>79765218
Neo-liberal are really deluded.
It's gonna work, it just almost killed every european nation so we need more liberalism to solve the problem.j
Sound just like soviet btw
>>79764817
>muh Jews
Jews are only in banking and in the media, most capitalists are whites, Chinese, Europeans, etc.
Communism goes against humanity. It turns people into ants, it's inhuman and can't work. It's a scourge that must be eradicated.
>>79766189
This, marx is a utopian fag but a very good economist with engels who make law today about capitalism flaw
>>79766498
>Listening to Greece about the economy
kek
>Jews are only in banking
It's a blanket term for shady douchbags running the world into the ground for financial gain
>Communism ain't natural
You realize all economic systems are unnatural, right? Bartering wasn't a think until pretty far into history. It was mostly credit based borrowing of random shit. "Like, hey can I borrow your shears?" "Sure, but only if I can borrow your bucket later"
>>79766189
>>79766283
If you have a totalitarian bolshevik Jew regime that controls all the banks, media, governments and universities in the west and uses all of their powers to intentionally subvert and disintegrate the west from within then you can't say that that system represents capitalism, just like I can't say that the soviet union represents communism because it doesn't. The soviet union was a socialist state.
>>79764817
Marxists like you should be lit on fire so that people can roast marshmallows.
Some form of robo communism is inevitable once robots replace everybody. Probably not before that.
Capitalism basically destroys itself in a mad dash to decrease labor prices while forgetting that it needs people to work to sustain itself and it's profit margins.
>>79764817
>But capitalism does? Who told you that, the bought and paid for public officials?
The personal computer you're using does. North Korea doesn't have those. Bernie forgot to tell you that, didn't he?
>>79765023
I had to go through like three different web browsers just to find one that wasn't cucking me with seizure inducing flashing white pages because of programming errors.
Because the internet is SATURATED with contradicting programming from multiple sources all centered around making a profit.
Half owned by the same God damn corporate entity that is Microsoft. Just thinking about all the chaos and the commotion of what goes into something so simple as browsing the internet and posting on this shit place but bombarded with bourgeois jewry makes me want to vomit.
And that's not even bringing moderators into the equation. The modern feudalism.
Why don't communists and socialists buy stocks?
It's literally owning the means of production.
>>79767242
North Korea does have computers you fucking idiot. In fact their internet is much more constructive being a centralized nationstate internet. Far easier to maintain, regulate, and no God damn felon moderators.
You'd be so lucky as to be North Korean. And if they weren't being cucked with embargos they'd already have robot waifus.
Oh, but this is not true communism/socialism/whatever twist you leftist fucks give to a failed system.
How about using some common sense to solve the problems instead of going to extremes?
>>79767298
If you want a better internet, capitalism allows you to create a better internet and make money while doing so. Communism does not allow anyone to do any of that
>>79767097
>"We've finally driven labor prices down to 0, they're essentially slaves! Now we jsut sit back and enjoy pure prof- Wait... No one is buying anything, why not?!"
Every time
>>79767066
>A leaf
>>79767035
I'm not saying Capitalism is inherently flawed, but it certainly seems to have destroyed my country.
>>79764817
>now we will finally build true communism, all tries before was a big mistake
>>79767543
Those computers are used by government employees for government purposes. The average citizen has never seen one in his life. Hence why I said "personal computers", Pablo.
Trusting a mooching neet like Marx really makes me wonder how stupid people are.
>>79764817
>But capitalism does?
The reason why you're allowed to run your stupid commie mouth on a machine that's connected to a network of servers is because of capitalism, retard.
>>79764817
>TIME
>TO
>GIVE
>COMMUNISM
>ANOTHER
>SHOT
I think you meant time to shoot communists
>>79767543
Yeah, I'm pretty sure your average NK citizen has access to internet.
Here, and in the rest of shithole South America, even the poorest of all have access to internet.
Go do communism on your own time in your own nation.
Fact of the matter is that even in America you have the freedom to self incorporate and donate all your money to a communist charity. You can be free of taxes and do it all your way.
Millions of decared communists and they can't make this work. Even when they are free to exclude unproductive members, they can't keep so much as a tribe running.
>>79767589
>>79764817
>Time to give Communism another shot.
Can't wait to start giving free helicopter rides to some fuckheads
>It is 2016 and you are still able to see baby communists get btfo.
conflicted feel, but mostly positive.
>>79768047
Instant save
>>79764817
>implying communists aren't just as jewey
>>79764817
>94,000,000 dead
>lol we'll just try harder next time
>>79767761
Read this post then read it again and then read it again until you really understand it >>79765218
Jews abusing their totalitarian powers in a social market economy just to plunder the state in their sick tax funded industries like the military industry, the refugee industry, the welfare industry and all the other atrophic parasite industries, that's what destroyed your country, not capitalism. Get it through your head you stupid self loathing, kikedefending commie shitfag.
>>79764817
I'm holding out for a kingdom of ends.
Kant has wisdom.
>>79768047
It's not real socialism.
>>79766498
Seriously i can't understand /pol/ on this subject.
On only ~200 years capitalism killed every single western nation, what do you want now
>>79767035
No it's not just jew.
I don't know for every country but in france this happened when DeGaulle died(degaulle was "authoritarian" ""far-right""leader who rule for some years with some communist make the nuclear project, spatial project(france was the third nation to go to space)he make executed people who wolrk with nazi, give independance to algeria afr the french military victory overs rebels because he didn't want to have 20 millions french algerian, try to stop american influence in france...etc...etc)
A lliberal started to do measure like massive immigration because it was the economic interest of france, it indeed make the country more rich.
He do that because he was a capitalist and capitalism is a marxist neologism who design a form of goverment were the increase of wealth is the main political subject.
If you are a capitalist you already put the nation and the people beside economic interest and it's the logic who kill the west today.
They are not crazy they just think economy is the more important thing and thris no need of subvertion to come to this logic
![659839a51ccbcea4e0098d5876c2298f[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/rhFhBst.png "659839a51ccbcea4e0098d5876c2298f[1].png")
>>79766283
Good job avoiding his point.
>>79768231
Leftists saying that the solutions for all the problems is more leftism is like a alcoholic drinking to stop the hangover
They are going to lose their liver at some point
let's create a new socioeconomic system with leftist ideas.
marxism is pretty overrate and isn't the only way to make a better world by achieving a better life quality for the majority of the people
>>79764817
>other socialist regimes were not socialist enough so lets try my special flavor of socialism i promise it will work this time guys ;_;
I've got nothing against small, justified, surgical purges.
You know, mostly involving free helicopter rides. That's right, you leftist fucking shit! They're free! They're completely free for anyone that deserves them!
>>79768063
See, this guy gets it.
They're absolutely free! In order to protect egalitarianism, each individual is only allotted one (1) free helicopter ride, though. Unfortunate, but you'll understand, right?
>he thinks that private property isn't the very staple of a free society
grow up kid
what we need is a true free market and a move away from collectivist shit like public healthcare, centralized governance, high taxes, bloated state departments, and get rid of lall the useless laws which prevent people expressing themselves. lassiez faire capitalism is the doctrine of innovators, who wish to create jobs themselves and benefit those who help achieve their ideas.
communism is the doctrine of lazy idiots who just want to either be told what to do or tell everyone else what to do for the rest of their lives, with little room for individuality or innovation. it has led to genocide and social discourse almost everywhere which it has been implemented, and the only reason capitalism is failing is because communists have all the money because politicians are in their pockets
>>79767761
The US stopped being capitalist more than half a century ago, you fucking idiot. The welfare state, income tax, and government regulated economy are straight out of the communist manifesto.
BTW, cooperatives (essentially what a socialist wants), are perfectly compatible with a free market. Just get the fuck out of my property.
>>79768661
>By Venezuelan
No wonder why your country is literally teh definition of a distopia
>>79764817
That anthem is so great
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sowpvuK-co8
>>79764817
Real capitalism has never been tried! It has always been socialism controlled markets!
>>79768542
I answered more here>>79768535
But i can resume my point, for me capitalism no matter what you try to put in place to avoid degenracy is by essence a generate system because it put peoplean nation beside the economy it bring a logic who can't controlled and it's what history show us, except for japan but it's just 70 years old and they will go nationalist before the degeneracy
It's easier for jews to weasle their way into one business (and they get the government for free too) than it is to weasle their way into multiple businesses and the government. Add to the fact that they have to not piss of said businesses too. There is a reason the US took so long to be corrupted while the USSR was corrupt from the start.
While the non corrupt businesses fled to Europe or America with their money too.
>>79768047
noice
>>79764817
>C-capitalism is so terrible, I can own anything mankind has ever dreamt of, b-but still everything is shit because I'm a looser!
>S-sure under Communism people murder one another over a piece of bread, b-but capitalism isn't much better, I swear!
Capitalism is fucking great, even the crony capitalism we have
People who piss and whine about capitalism only do so because they're too retarded to make the system work for them. The first rule of capitalism: there is no room for the weak.
>>79768743
Britanon is right.
>>79769191
Fra:ce wasn't capitalist during degaulle mandat and curiously it wasn't so hard to live here
>KC Green thinks he invented the joke but Pinochet was living it in the 70s
OP is clearly a Capitalist who's trolling.
sage goes in all fields
>>79764817
Jews invented communism
>>79769292
Look this guy who take a pic with his iphone.
He make enough money to live comfortably, capitalism is the rule of the strongest, what a great man
I will donate use of my entire arcade game collection to the first socialist arcade.
No coin in, no cover charge for shareholders and free admission to anyone on some kind of food assistance. The arcade must be open at least 8 hours per day, 6 days per week.
To this day, nobody can turn autonomous entertainment machines into something that can pay rent. Somehow, this same group of people can be expected to run a country.
>>79768743
good post
>Communism doesn't work
When will this Jewish meme die?
>>79767298
>complains about competing programming standards
>complains about Microsoft having a dominant market share
Why can't socialists even maintain a coherent thought for half a second? Microsoft monopolizing the entire software market is LITERALLY what you're asking for (only replace "Microsoft" with "Amerisoft").
>>79769839
>
what did he mean by this?
>>79769996
when it works
>>79764817
>>79764817
Capitalism isn't failed the problem is just fucking neoliberalism
>>79768743
France is more free than ever and shittier than ever
Before the 70's we were still a massive power with a lot of influence and amongst the most innovative nation in the world.
Company were privatised media were really controlled by the state, abortion was forbiden, divorcing was really hard, they was a obligatary military service, more tax, etc etc
>>79767685
R A R E F L A G
A R E F L A G
R E F L A G
E F L A G
F L A G
L A G
A G
G
>>79767685
It's already extreme so going back to the common sens is a extreme will
>>79764817
I'll only be a communist when they stop glorifying Hard Work
Read Russell's "In Praise of Idleness"
Communists should support full automation, not back breaking work for the "proletariat", so we can all enjoy free time
I mean really, why would anyone want to work?
>>79770690
kys
>>79770273
neoliberalism is just "muh pure capitalism" but on a world stage. Sounds like capitalism to me
>>79770881
Here neoliberalism meant privatization of state companies (handed over to friends of the government of course) plus state-enforced monopolies of said companies. A joke of a "free market"
>>79770831
>Implying modern communism would mean a purely agrarian society
That's silly. I imagine more of a purely automated labor force. The only actual "jobs" remaining will be in the government, designing/maintaining the automatons, and various craft/artistic endeavors. Everyone else will just be on the gobment cheese.
tl;dr: I agree
>>79764817
>let's be communist because we dislike Jews
Didn't do a lot of thinking there, did ya?
>>79770877
lol
>>79771142
>>79771142
>Muh real free market
>Muh we never try free market
>Muh everybody will be happy under free market
Two post later
>kek he think sovuet weren't communskt
>he think it wasn't communsim
Autistic liberal
>>79771233
That's what I mean, I'm not talking about agrarianism, though I do want to see a more green world, the godawful Soviet cities make me eyes bleed. I guess you could me a techno-socialist. It's just a lot of the time, I see some communists advocating that work is a necessity and Stalin dindu nuffin by working people to death.
>>79764817
>There's literally nothing wrong with purges
Cant argue with that.
Seriously though, spouting this kind of shit on the 4th of all times, you are a disgrace to a great nation.
>>79764817
> Communism works meme
> Communism never tried correctly before meme
> Giving a one party state power over intimate areas of private citizens doesn't necessarily lead to purges meme
Look, just go get a job, climb the career ladder by working well, raise a family, get your children more opportunities by giving them a good education and be happy you never experienced communism back in the day when it was cool. My parents and grandparents told me about Yoloswagia back in the day, it was intolerable for anybody with an actual, valuable skill. You are not stupid, quit the cult while you are young.
Just gas the kikes you fucking retards
>>79769996
Jews invented communism for those they take over.
>>79769676
I only see degeneracy in socialism to be honest. Single mothers popping kids like there's no tomorrow to get some of that welfare money, state incentives to live the Greek-style NEET life, tax money that goes to fill the pockets of 100 politicians that do the work of a single man, or to pay the salaries of a professor teaching in useless carreers like Gender Studies.
You would see degeneracy in a free market, but at least it would be privately funded; instead we get a system where we're forced to subsidize the mistakes of others.
>>79771500
What the hell are you talking about, you frog-eating retard
>>79770690
not even rare
stahp
>>79771782
You are not european so of course you can't know what it is do to see a 600 years church with a tag on it!, or seeing t place were the kings of france rest surrounded by muslim and niggrs
This happened because of liberalism not socialism or communism, and i'm not socialist or communist but nationalist
>>79772540
No, this is because you have a system that attracts and subsidizes shitty immigrants and that prevents you from defending your property against them.
>>79771682
Those 20th century attempts were admittedly shitty. Leninism is a load of authoritarian bullshit.
OP is a faggot.
Communism never works.
>B-b-but it wasnt real communism!
>Need another chance!
>DIDN DU NUFIN!
Sod off.
/thread
>>79772967
Is there any other way to get to communism? To begin with, you need so seize the means of production and purge the bourgeoisie. How are you going to achieve that without violence and totalitarianism?
I tell you, don't fall for this rubbish. It's a cult, very similar to Islam btw, and goes contrary to everything that made the west superior and nice to live in.
>>79764817
>Communism fails
>capitalism is seen as having some downsides for some
hurr let's do communism again guys
let's replace what we think doesn't work with something we know didn't work
>>79772925
No this argument clearly don't work.
People come to work not getting welfare that's why today with the french unemployement people who can very easily and are almost forced by th gov to take french nationality(calais) refuse and prefer stay in shitty camp hoping to go in england where they can have a work more easily because of more liberal law
Our immigration come from a liberal president who bring millions of immigrant to make a bigger interior market and low wages and it's good for the economy that's proven.
Your pic is all of why liberal are totaly blind to the history, the fact is, it never happened, people can't choose that because there is always a part of the population who want to become richer, that's natural
>>79765023
>When will you idiots learn?
They don't, that's why their commies
>>79768535
>capitalism ruined the west in 200 years
Communism ruined every country it touched much faster
>>79773420
>I tell you, don't fall for this rubbish. It's a cult
exactly, the biggest cult mankind has ever seen. It's leaking into the west now at a terrifying rate. All memes aside, Social Justice and blind progressivism is a product and agent of the cult of communism and it needs to be stamped out soon if the west is to survive.
>hey capitalism is not working because the jews rule it, so we need communism, a jew invention!
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.530857
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3plO343bID8
>>79774039
Last time i check all ex-communist are still white with when all other white country become brown or black
>>79773326
Relevant flag.
Btw how is it you have internet over there? Isn't electricity rationed yet?
>>79774617
0 blackouts in Caracas, maduro lifting up the rationing today supposedly in the rest of the country.
Postin via mobile network though, main isp is still fucking banned, fuck you moot.
>>79774244
Go check out Russia then. The white Russians are not having children because Communism fucked up the economy so bad. The ones reproducing are the Muslims, who will be a majority in about 5 years.
>>79774734
Stay safe over there - one day you'll be free of the commies I hope.
>>79764817
>>79764817
We need to purge the academics. China was correct in purging the universities.
>>79774871
Communism always implodes, sooner or later ill be free.
Cheers.
>>79774747
Tartar are russian, russia always be a multi-ethnic nation just look a map.
But indeed russia has been strongly subverted by the usa because of eltsin
>>79764817
>>79775030
If you survive.
>>79764817
Communism won't ever work because humans are naturally selfish.
Only people who don't see themselves as selfish are for Communism.
>>79774747
And a bad economy increase the birth rate.
I don't think nigeria or ivory coast are amazingly rich
>>79775030
holy shit Venezuela
how do you even survive there?
>>79775102
So ais the west true capitalism?
>>79764817
they Jews still win in communism yo dolt. They elites in any form of society will always win
>>79773365
Source of text?
>>79775384
Pasta & ketchup m8.
God bless heinz.
>>79775251
They are mostly Muslim as well. The insane breeding is cultural, not dependent on wealth. Christians don't reproduce like the muzzies because they are taught that you should value life, they usually consider the circumstances they'll have children in and abstain if they know it will fail.
Also, if you havn't noticed, communism promotes civilization destroying bs. such as gender equality, equality of outcome at any cost and dependency on the good will of the state. If you want a healthy society you need competition to get people to perform as best as they can, not coddle them like some degenerate children.
>>79775219
>Communism won't ever work because humans are naturally selfish
Communism won't work even with perfectly moral people because it has a massive problem relying information.
Communism/socialism are quite literally impossible
Nearly 100 years and Commies still Haven't addressed this issue which has since been vindicated by History
https://mises.org/library/end-socialism-and-calculation-debate-revisited
>>79775909
>ommunism promotes civilization destroying bs. such as gender equality
Oh come on, feminism happened in capitalist society not communist for one reason feminism is a consequence of consumerism you need more buyer so you"free" women from children(abortion, birth rate etc) and husband(divorce sexual liberation)
I don't care if it's also a communist , the reality the fact are like that, feminism is a capitalist creation, and it was lead only by rich (((woman)))
>lf you want a healthy society you need competition to get people to perform as best as they can, not coddle them like some degenerate children.
You know under auguste at rome 20& of the roman population have welfare(and itas very very expensive) but it was the beggining of a golden age for rome.
We can't see this phenomen you describe in the history, nation compete between each other never people in fact
>>79765218
>>79765023
>Venezuela has communism
lmao, educate yourself bucko
http://unitedchans.org/socialism-has-never-worked/
>>79777184
Communism is a dead stinking pig.
Socialism is a dead stinking pig with lipstick.
>>79776055
Who is Oskar Lange?
Kill yourself kike.
>>79777503
and capitalism is a jewish tranny in lipstick
>>79771782
>socialism is a welfare state
stop posting anytime
>>79775219
If people were perfectly moral, people would realize that it is rude and unfair to take from others and would have respect for private property, leading them to capitalism. Additionally, if people were perfectly moral, they would use some of their extra funds to help those who are truly legitimately disadvantaged.
There is still no need for communism.
>>79764817
Venezuela
Better question: Why don't you just go to Cuba and stop bothering us?
>>79777503
It's alive and well in Rojava
Remember when everyone was equal , and everyone worked for the greater good of everyone else and how good that was?
>>79777734
>state control of these means of production for the production of these specific goods and services like social security and public healthcare is arbitrarily not socialism, but a welfare state system
>however, the state control of these other arbitrary means of production IS socialism
Inb4
>state control is not socialism
Fuck off.
>>79777796
>implying private property isn't already theft
>implying wage labor isn't just institutional theft
pls anon
>>79777944
>>>79764817 (OP)
>Venezuela
/Thread
>>79778228
State control isn't socialism. State control is worker ownership of the means of production. If workers don't control the state when it controls the means of production then its not socialism.
I'll link this again.
http://unitedchans.org/socialism-has-never-worked/
>>79777184
>B..but that's not real communism
Every time with these retards.
>>79778087
Yes, that is in fact the entire meaning of the free market. I have something you want and you want something I have, we both trade and we're both happier for it because we value the other person's object more than our own.
>The Jews are behind Capitalism, so we need Communism to stop them.
Good goyim.
>>79778239
>not knowing what theft means
Communism hasn't worked because we haven't had the right leader
>Why should we try again?
Because it's 2016
>>79778368
OP you know you're fucking retarded when a Venezuelan calls you out for supporting communism.
You're probably fresh off the boat from reddit or your liberal university campus so who can blame you.
>>79778441
I literally establish what is real socialism in the link. Go fuck yourself.
>>79778424
You know an economic system is shit when everyone has a fucking different definition.
See
>>79768047
>>79778664
Except your link is just as brazenly stupid and incorrect as you are.
Back to square one commie.
>>79778500
Theft is taking what belongs to someone else. If workers really owned the products of their own labor in capitalism then they would negotiate prices for the commodities they make not their wages.
>>79764817
Capitalism works really well, it's just that earth has become too small for us. I'm not talking about population mind you.
Communism, or any system that takes personal property by force, is to be rejected. It would be different on a voluntary basis, but that would never work in reality.
>>79778789
Damn, going full retard I see.
>>79778741
>it's not really capitalism it's crony capitalism!
also
>implying I'm from tumblr
>>79778960
meant for
>>79778720
![uiMYHbQ[2].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ycnefhw.jpg "uiMYHbQ[2].jpg")
>>79775219
>Only people who don't see themselves as selfish are for Communism.
in my experience, these types of people are the most selfish of all. their entire worldview based on the immutable truth of their cause. there is no room for any other thinking than their own and if you dare to speak against it or for the merit of something else you immediately become Hitler
>>79778424
It is impossible to go from big government to smaller government. Governments will do everything in their power to make the transition take as long as possible, such as embezzle funds so your taxes never come back to you, using public schools to brainwash people, or since it's the government simply crush and disappear and censor anyone who challenges the government.
>>79778741
>nah u wrong cuz ur stupid
ok kid
>>79764817
>muh capitalism is better
>muh communism is better
You're missing the weak link. People are naturally selfish, so neither system works. It's human nature.
And say you were in the position to 'fix' mankind so that society works perfectly without corruption? Congrats you now have a race of dull robotic soulless people.
An unwinnable situation.
>>79778919
Then what is theft? And what is property, if not just something arbitrarily determined by a government?
Hey OP.
>>79767066
Suharto pls
>>79779088
That's why you don't make state control your starting point. Start by making municipalities the center of political power so that ordinary people can actually control the state.
See here: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/murray-bookchin-libertarian-municipalism-an-overview
>>79779105
Capitalism has a great check against greed and uncontrolled growth of power: Competition. If a competitor tries to be greedy and raise the prices massively or exploit someone, the other competitor will simply be kind or slightly reduce prices and take all the market share, which disincentivizes greed.
For instance, if two companies are selling chips at 1$ and one of them raises the price to 2$, whoever raised the price goes bankrupt immediately, which makes prices over time adjust to the equilibrium point where prices can't go any lower without the owner making a loss.
>>79778960
>I-I'ts not really state control! It's the workers'!
Okay, I'll bite.
Who are these workers? How do they control the means of production?
And why is Venezuela not a True Socialist Country, in spite of the officials having been elected by the people, which includes workers?
>>79779095
I'm not going to sit here with some NEET fresh from uni who has zero real world experience and try to explain to them how communism is a pipe dream - sorry buddy.
>>79779473
Why even have governments? Why not just skip the bullshit that comes with any size of government and just abolish the government?
>>79779488
>muh competition
Can you even into political economy? When you have capital accumulation like in capitalism people with massive amounts of capital will do everything in their power to make things less competitive.
>>79767374
No it's not.
>>79767242
>le Bernie wants DPRK 2.0 meme
>>79764817
>Communism
Get the fuck out of here you JIDF shill
>>79779633
Such as...
>>79767732
Good luck getting into the modern market while being cucked by big businesses.
>le communism has no innovation meme
Look up the number of inventions in the USSR.
>>79779506
>Who are these workers?
People who work in firms.
>Who are these workers?
They vote on how to run their firms as well as the broader economic activity.
>And why is Venezuela not a True Socialist Country, in spite of the officials having been elected by the people, which includes workers?
Decisions are not decided by the workers, but by """representatives"""" and bureaucrats.
This quote by Rousseau comes to mind:
>The people of England regards itself as free; but it is grossly mistaken; it is free only during the election of members of parliament. As soon as they are elected, slavery overtakes it, and it is nothing.
>>79779596
The usual reasons, security mostly.
>>79767964
Tell that to citizens of despotic right-wing regimes.
>>79779928
>They vote on how to run their firms as well as the broader economic activity.
They can vote with their legs and wallet.
>>79779906
... yeah all those great inventions while 95% of the population waited outside in the snow 10 days at a time for last months beet rations... such a glorious utopia.
>>79768047
hahahaha le epic strawman meme that omits 99% of the situation is le epicccc XDDDDD!!!!1!111!!!!!!!!!
>>79779847
Banks controlling the fed, big pharma writing drug legislation.
>>79768063
Hello Suharto.
>>79780139
>the fed
Government institution.
>drug legislation.
Government institution.
>>79780032
It's but an opinion poll. Capitalists rarely do what people would actually want them to.
>>79771233
Friedman said it best: "...my friend told me 'we can implement socialism once everyone has a house and two servants.' - 'Even the servants?' I ask. 'Yes, even the servants.' "
As long as you fuckwit don't come up with a plan, no one will listen to you.
>>79780248
>implying the same thing wouldn't happen without a state
>implying we're not living in capitalism right now
>>79767995
>the poorest in SA have Internet
Definitely not true. Many areas still don't have electricity.
That photo is misleading if you think North Korea has no infrastructure. The photo is taken at night, when electricity has to be conserved.
>Domino Theory
>installing dictators in SA because gommunism
>War on Drugs
>War on Terror
>Operation Gladio/B
>neoliberals which are just conservatives lite
It's hard being a socialist, /pol/.
>>79780286
We have a plan.
https://s3.jacobinmag.com/issues/jacobin-abcs.pdf
>>79779928
>People who work in firms.
Okay. Do people that work in a pencil-producing firm have a say in the decisions regarding the means of production in other firms, like a steel-producing firm? Why or why not?
>They vote on how to run their firms as well as the broader economic activity.
So people having voted politicians to run their firms as well as the broader economic activity is not socialism, but people voting directly IS socialism...
>>79774244
> Muh race
Slavshits aren't aryan and venezuela is crumbling. They aren't white. Was Cambodia white? China?
>>79778424
This is filed with shit. The section on Chile is filled with literal and factual lies. Fucking commies, they have to lie to themselves to pretend they are not idiots. Fucking shit.
>>79768231
>if you can be tied to le 100 billion by arbitrary terms you're literally the same thing even if you're actually different in practice
>>79780253
Capitalists have to do what people want them to do or else they don't get revenue.
Your wages too low? Your workers leave, you lose all your revenue.
Did something terribly immoral? Shareholders drop you, customers boycott you, you lose revenue.
Your products sucked? Nobody will buy from you, you can't pay employees, your business burns.
Made a very poor investment? Your money goes to the bank which then loans it to your soon to be replacement.
Etc.
This is the opposite of taxes, where governments get paid whether they help people or not because if you don't pay, you get jailed.
>>79775395
Yes. There are many similar systems tried by the different countries, but as long as no one comes up with something better, capitalism will pursue.
>>79768690
>all arbitrarily lumped things are the same even if they're not
>>79780496
>Okay. Do people that work in a pencil-producing firm have a say in the decisions regarding the means of production in other firms, like a steel-producing firm? Why or why not?
Only in an indirect way through the state, and only as citizens of the state. But unless something goes wrong, it's likely most firms will have autonomy for the most part.
>So people having voted politicians to run their firms as well as the broader economic activity is not socialism, but people voting directly IS socialism..
Politicians don't run non-coop firms in Venezuela, bureaucrats or capitalists do. But basically, yes. The will of the people cannot be represented by anyone but the people. Basically, read Rousseau.
>>79780648
Not even capitalists like capitalism because their end-game is always a monopoly.
>>79770047
Communists think their ideology can cover the needs of a nation.
Yet, they can't even establish their own libraries, arcades, cinema, automats, or any other business that is highly automated and simple.
Given the chance to profit they all choose profit. Anyone willing to give it away free makes an arcade too shitty to be worth a tiny admission fee.
>>79768891
You should check out a capitalist wonderland like Haiti.
>>79780826
>Only in an indirect way through the state, and only as citizens of the state. But unless something goes wrong, it's likely most firms will have autonomy for the most part.
Autonomy implies property rights. The system you're proposing is called a cooperative, perfectly compatible in a free market.
>>79764817
The fact that you are even able to say "another shot" tells me that this is shit b8 that belongs in the toilet m8.
>>79769191
Nice strawman
>>79764817
>Guys, guys, you know how having a bloated bureaucracy and corrupt cronyism is destroying society?
>What if we create an advanced state of cronyism with even MORE potential for corruption and exploitation of workers through state ownership? Oh! And we could make the bureaucracy bigger too! Isn't this an awesome idea?
>>79780253
If a capitalist doesn't provide me with the goods and services I desire, I won't give him my money. That's why I don't have an iPhone or a skateboard. I buy what I actually want. So does everyone else. And with my money I can influence the future of the products I want. If I want more hardware, I can buy more hardware and create a demand. hopefully someone will satisfy me with supply and take my green paper.
>>79780343
Yeah well even if Novartis had an insane 5 years and bought every single place where the herbs for their medicine are used, they still had to
>Be insanely good at every other business for a very long time
>Have EVERY person selling those herb fields agree to selling them(monopolies in the making are very easy to detect so you could just be denied and lose your revenue again)
>Still have to give money to the herb field owners
While in socialism, it's pretty much
>Write on a piece of paper with some ink that Novartis now owns all herb fields
and it's done. So it's almost strictly easier to have a monopoly under government than under capitalism.
>>79780379
>The fact that they have to ration electricity isn't a massive argument against you
>>79773365
Another strawman. Who's to say democratic socialism can't be in a parliamentary or federal system?
>>79777521
A failure regarding this argument.
If you actually read shit debunking your stupidity you wouldn't say such stupid shit
>>79780477
Red letters and comics for extra edgy meme magic.
Also: No 20 bullet points on what to change effectively. Just bullshit talk about how capitalists abuse and exploit people. If they charge too much money, people won't buy it or competition will rise to make money themselves. If they exploit their workers, people will just quit and get another job elsewhere. Businesses actually compete for the best workers. Germany didn't have a minimum wage up till 2014 and the big bad wageslavery didn't happen. The spiral isn't real. People still got jobs for 7 to 8 € per hour.
>>79781075
>Get proven wrong
>"N..nice strawman"
>>79781532
Why stop at parliament or federal? Why not have it on a local level in cooperatives or on a semi-local level in FACTORIES. All perfectly feasible and functioning, but you don't also drag people in who do not want to be part of socialism.
>>79764817
>public officials are corrupt because of capitalism
>we need to give them even more power and control than what they already have
Fuck off back to plebbit
>>79767964
Internet was made by the government you stupid faggot.
>>79782327
>citation needed
>implying communism and government are the same
>implying a communist government can innovate
This whole thread is just shitty b8 anyways.
>>79766189
>150
That's all? Adam smith, 220+ years ago. Check mate.
>>79764817
Socialism has never worked, and that's a matter of historical fact.
I have my problems with Capitalism too, but until we can find a better system it's the best we got.
>>79780648
But you forget it goes both ways. Capitalists using mass media, advertisement and other means can control what people want, what people expect, and how people look at things.
>This is the opposite of taxes, where governments get paid whether they help people or not because if you don't pay, you get jailed.
Firms get paid whether you actually find utility in their products or not.
>>79767995
China looks fine to me.
>>79781061
Personal property is different from private property. And yes co-ops exist in the free market, but so long as capitalist property laws exist they will not become the dominant mode of production regardless of their merits.
>>79764817
Please stop spreading your degeneracy. Move to China if you want that shit.
>>79764817
>ctrl+f "fascism"
>0 results
I'm disappointed in you, /pol/.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Position
>>79783129
>Personal property is different from private property
How so?
>but so long as capitalist property laws exist they will not become the dominant mode of production regardless of their merits.
What are these capitalist property laws?
>>79781114
But what you want is also influenced by capitalists, they control mass media, they spend billions on advertising, they change the culture. They make it a duty to find utility in their commodities. It's a fucked up system.
>>79782639
Someone just got smacked in the lips with The Wealth of Nations.
>>79780379
Man, are you under effects os alchool or drugs?
>>79781162
>Be insanely good at every other business for a very long time
No, thanks to copyright and patent laws around drugs they only had to get lucky a couple of times.
>and it's done. So it's almost strictly easier to have a monopoly under government than under capitalism
>what is market socialism
I do support communism and I think Venezuela would do better if USA stopped interfering in our politics. They sabotage our market and blame always our government in the mass media.
We were doing better than anyone till oil prices collapse. Now we are developing a new economy based in chinese socialism. It is better for us now, we have as much gold as oil and everything will be ok soon and our country will be better than any other country in the world.
>>79764817
How about we give national socialism another shot?
>>79779681
Yes, it is
>>79783527
ULTIMATE BAIT
Or chavista scum
>>79764817
hey idiot who do you think spread communism in the early 1900s?
>>79783532
>Tfw you will never get to wear a black SS uniform
>>79781772
Nice to know you didn't actually read it.
Here's something a little more condensed. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2012/12/the-red-and-the-black/
But regardless, prices are actually rather sticky and perfect competition has never existed. And since there is pretty much always a labor surplus no matter what job the average worker gets they'll always be exploited.
>Germany didn't have a minimum wage up till 2014 and the big bad wageslavery didn't happen
Germany also has unions and work councils.
>>79768063
you'll be first for stealing mi General's meme of helicopter riding.
Faggot.
>>79783286
>How so?
Personal property is for personal use. Private property can be something you never use, like the means of produciton.
>What are these capitalist property laws?
You can own firms without working in them. Workers and municipalities don't have the right of first refusal.
>>79783756
demuestra lo contrario, coñoetumadre
Comeback of strasserism fucking when?
>>79783962
Of course I don't read a manifesto in triple digits.
> Always a labor surplus
Unemployment is pretty stable currently. If a programmer thinks "shit, there are too many programmers!", he can open a business, employ all those other programmers for low cost, since there is a labor surplus and make a lot of money. But there isn't a labor surplus. It's this ridiculous notion that there are crazy flaws in the system and every capitalist can find a way to use this supposed flaws to make a big profit, but somehow, somehow it isn't that easy.
You can't just hire women, because you have to pay them 23% less. The wage gap is a stupid myth and if it weren't, someone could easily exploit it for his profits. But: Suprise, suprise, no one did it, because there is no wage gap. Same with: An employer can just drive down wages more and more. Bullshit. Life isn't that easy.
If I don't like an offer, I don't take the job. This notion that the employer and the employee shouldn't make a contract, because some third party knows what's best for both is the thing that annoys me. You are not smarter than everyone else, not everyone disagreeing with you is just a mindless sheeple person.
>>79784562
Ande a hacer la colita pa la bolsita del clap y deja de defender al gobierno que te tiene mamandote un guevo en 4chan, sapodiablo
>>79784149
>Personal property is for personal use. Private property can be something you never use, like the means of produciton.
These definitions are unsatisfactory because they only explain what I can do with them, not what they are. They are also very ambiguous. If I work at home, and if we subscribe to these "personal property" and "private property", I am using my home as personal property, but at the same time it is a means of production. I use the floor of my home to stand; without it I could not work. I also use the computer to work, or the tools inside it. I might also own a factory, and live there.
No, things are much simpler when we just deal with private properties. No need to overcomplicate it with this.
>You can own firms without working in them. Workers and municipalities don't have the right of first refusal.
Yes, of course I can. If people weren't okay with this they would do something else. If I have people working in them for me, it all came through a voluntary transaction.
>>79784918
>Unemployment is pretty stable currently.
Yes, and it always exists and must exist for capitalism to work.
>You can't just hire women, because you have to pay them 23% less.
I never brought up the wage gap, but this was a thing that used to happen.
>This notion that the employer and the employee shouldn't make a contract, because some third party knows what's best for both is the thing that annoys me
In socialism there is no employer and no third party because the worker is the employer. They make their money by selling whatever they produce. Capitalists didn't get where they are just by being better or smarter in some way, if capitalism was a true meritocracy it would have ended a century ago. Can you imagine how pissed off poor and unemployed people would be if they actually deserved to be where they are?
>>79785248
>If I work at home, and if we subscribe to these "personal property" and "private property", I am using my home as personal property, but at the same time it is a means of production. I use the floor of my home to stand; without it I could not work. I also use the computer to work, or the tools inside it. I might also own a factory, and live there.
This is exactly the point, whoever is using the means of production should own it, when there is pure private property this is not always the case. But when there is pure personal property this IS always the case.
>If I have people working in them for me, it all came through a voluntary transaction.
This is pure ideology, if a voluntary transaction was all that made capitalism go round then it wouldn't make certain commodities illegal like heroin or nuclear weapons. What is sellable is determined by the state, we simply don't want people to sell wage labor since we'd be better off if we didn't. For the same reason we shouldn't commodify the human soul.
>>79786402
That's why I'm for free markets. Governments should only defend property rights and fuck off from everything else.
>>79787030
But then who decides property rights? This is the big issue.
>>79764817
>Jews now control most of the modern world.
so we should just give them the rest?
>>79787431
They have come to be through a very long process of mutual agreements and violent engagements.
>>79764817
Jews run communism, dummy. Even more so then they can be said to run capitalism.
Are you forgetting who (((Marx))) really was?
>>79764817
You're welcome to try. Given how it panned out last time, I don't think it's going to end well.
>>79787733
In that case, there is nothing illegitimate about workers seizing the means of production by force if that's the logic.
>>79787815
Socialism existed before Marx and was primarily advocated for on christian grounds.
>>79788106
>In that case, there is nothing illegitimate about workers seizing the means of production by force if that's the logic.
There is. It's theft. Dare you to do it and you will end up dead.
>>79788245
>There is. It's theft. Dare you to do it and you will end up dead.
I'm only going by the other's anon's logic. Without the state, violence is the only legitimacy for property.
>>79788388
>violence is the only legitimacy for property.
Only if you dare violate it.
>Without the state
Violence.
>>79788106
>>79788388
That would be illegitimate according to law, immoral according to some ethical principles. Not denying it has happened in the past, though. I don't know about you, but it is likely I'm currently occupying land that previously belonged to an Indian tribe. What is done is done.
There are ways of acquiring land peacefully. In the past, people peacefully acquired land through homesteading (maybe in your Alaska people keep doing). You worked the land, then that land was yours. Another way would be to buy it from someone else.
Property rights are more than just pieces of land. Property rights are the boundaries that allow peaceful transactions between people.
>>79785780
> but this was a thing that used to happen.
Until some people said "fuck it, fuck sexism" and employed women, having lower costs, thus higher profits, thus could drive down their prices and beat out competition, which they did and thus they proved, that hiring based on merits works best.
> Yes, and it always exists and must exist for capitalism to work.
It takes to time to find the right job/the right employee. In the end work is there to be productive, so looking for it might take some time. Long term unemployment is indeed a problem, but you can't magically make these people productive. You can give them a job, like ...cleaning the street, but it probably won't be worth anyone's money. Keeping them busy for the sake of it isn't going to change them.
> In socialism there is no employer and no third party because the worker is the employer.
My argument was a slap at the wageslavery argument, but I'll take your response:
A fundamental problem is how to grow or even form a business. If I get government to give me a building and machinery, everyone would do so. If everyone is entitled to it, it will take some time, in Eastern Germany everyone was entitled to a car and was on a 17 year wait list. So: I have to find a group of people (or be on my own) that get a building and machinery to open up a business. Now, I went through all that shit to get all these things and now I need more people to make everything run. Can I just invite them? Can they just join my business. Can I fire them if they employ themselves? Can they just overrule me, sell all the stuff and destroy the business for some quick extra money?
It's just so much easier in capitalism.
> Capitalists didn't get where they are just by being better or smarter in some way, if capitalism was a true meritocracy it would have ended a century ago.
Bill Gates and Steve Jobs made a lot of money by being pretty smart and selling pretty good things.
Why would it have ended a century ago?
>>79788640
>Only if you dare violate it.
Violate the law?
>Violence
Hm?
>>79788680
> immoral according to some ethical principles. Not denying it has happened in the past, though. I don't know about you, but it is likely I'm currently occupying land that previously belonged to an Indian tribe. What is done is done.
And if there was violent revolution that'll be history too at some point.
>Property rights are more than just pieces of land. Property rights are the boundaries that allow peaceful transactions between people.
True, and they aren't fixed in stone. They are determined by the political economy. See: copyright law.
>>79789170
>Violate the law?
Yes
>Violence
The state uses violence to enforce the law, yet you said without the state violence is the only legitimacy of property
>>79789170
>And if there was violent revolution that'll be history too at some point.
You are talking about a future possibility, not a past that already happened. Don't cry over spilled milk, yet try to avoid more milk being spilled over.
>>79788773
>Until some people said "fuck it, fuck sexism" and employed women, having lower costs, thus higher profits, thus could drive down their prices and beat out competition, which they did and thus they proved, that hiring based on merits works best.
Actually that didn't happen. Non-discrimination laws were passed first.
>It takes to time to find the right job/the right employee.
We're on 4chan, don't tell me you've forgotten about the neets.
>It takes to time to find the right job/the right employee.
>You can give them a job, like ...cleaning the street, but it probably won't be worth anyone's money.
There's a lot of infrastructure we need to rebuild here in the states.
>If I get government to give me a building and machinery, everyone would do so. If everyone is entitled to it, it will take some time, in Eastern Germany everyone was entitled to a car and was on a 17 year wait list.
You'd get a loan, just like you would now. But in socialism you wouldn't be able to sell stocks to private citizens.
>Can I just invite them?
Sure
> Can they just join my business.
Sure
>Can I fire them if they employ themselves?
If they give you that power.
>Can they just overrule me, sell all the stuff and destroy the business for some quick extra money?
Yes, but that wouldn't be in their best interest. And that already happens in capitalism.
http://www.reuters.com/investigates/section/the-cannibalized-company/
>Bill Gates and Steve Jobs made a lot of money by being pretty smart and selling pretty good things.
It's something of a crapshoot. The Walton's don't really do shit for wallmart.
>Why would it have ended a century ago?
I explained why, but coincidentally, the 100 year anniversary of the great depression is in under 15 years.
>>79789424
>Yes
We were referring to the wars and fights that established some of the first property """""rights"""""
>The state uses violence to enforce the law, yet you said without the state violence is the only legitimacy of property
Then violence is the only way either way, then?
>You are talking about a future possibility, not a past that already happened.
Just a matter of perspective.
>Don't cry over spilled milk, yet try to avoid more milk being spilled over.
Some people get a kick out of spilling milk.
>>79790146
> Non-discrimination laws were passed first.
Jim Crow required you to have separated bathrooms and shit.
> You'd get a loan, just like you would now. But in socialism you wouldn't be able to sell stocks to private citizens.
What if I default? Who is backing this?
> Yes, but that wouldn't be in their best interest.
I can bring a hundred of my homies, join a business, force selling everything with a voting majority, live like a champ for a month and do the same thing again next month?
On buybacks: If it destroys so much and makes the companies worthless, people will back out sooner or later, plummeting the stock value. And making the shareholders or rather the board happy is actually the job of the CEO, since he is employed by them.
> The Walton's don't really do shit for wallmart.
Their parents and grandparents built an empire and decided to give it their kids. Of course, the kids are lucky to have great parents, but they still have to employ a CEO that runs the business. They have it easy, but if you want to get rich or want your kids to be rich, you have to build an empire, just like the Waltons.
> the 100 year anniversary of the great depression
Oh man, so many people died in the great depression, I wonder how it can ever compare to the utopia of socialism in USSR.
>>79791833
>Jim Crow required you to have separated bathrooms and shit.
What's your point?
>What if I default? Who is backing this?
Same people as now, depositors and the government.
>I can bring a hundred of my homies, join a business, force selling everything with a voting majority, live like a champ for a month and do the same thing again next month?
No, you'd have to convince the people in the firm to let you in first.
>On buybacks: If it destroys so much and makes the companies worthless, people will back out sooner or later, plummeting the stock value. And making the shareholders or rather the board happy is actually the job of the CEO, since he is employed by them.
Except it's the shareholders who are the ones fighting for the buybacks since it makes them richer in the short term.
>They have it easy, but if you want to get rich or want your kids to be rich, you have to build an empire, just like the Waltons.
They'd have it easy even if they didn't own wallmart anymore. They're already filthy rich, why do we have to make them filthy rich for all of history at the expense of workers.
>Oh man, so many people died in the great depression
Many did actually, but that was hardly the point I was making.
>I wonder how it can ever compare to the utopia of socialism in USSR.
the USSR was essentially a state capitalist system, but it still did a lot more for the russian people than the Czar did. Perhaps Russia wouldn't even be industrialized if it weren't for the USSR. They literally went from a war torn rural backwater to the second superpower of the world.
