I'm arguing with this guy on "skilled immigration". He says that they don't collect welfare and that if it was ended the visas the jobs would be outsourced, we'd lose out on GDP and tax revenue, and that our economy would be worse off.
Redpill me on H1b Visas /pol/
It saturates the labour, most of the money goes to multinational corporations. Supply and demand, wages are kept artificially low meanwhile housing and food goes up.
>>79560099
I don't know much about actual immigration, but I do know that there's no way that Ahmed the economic migrant posing as a refugee is skilled.
>>79560099
literally nothing wrong with skilled, non-muslim, non-indian immigration, as long as it happens in controlled numbers, and for jobs the receiving country actually needs.
>>79560099
"We" do not benefit from GDP increases. Only the wealthy do.
>>79560860
T R I C K L E
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>>79560737
btw to state the obvious, skilled pretty much rules out mexicans
when u realise the people of pol know less about economics than my dog.
skilled immigration is a huge benefit, remember, key word SKILLED.
>import all the skilled labourers/intelligent people from every country and their dosh
>wonder why so countries turn to shit
>>79561088
>>79561122
>import tons of shitskins for 30 years
>wonder why wage stays artificially low
>>79560737
>>import all the skilled labourers/intelligent people from every country and their dosh
>>wonder why so countries turn to shit
A-B-C-D-E-F-G-H1bs include indians and orientals how the fuck do I argue against that, it can also include muslims and africans.
>>79561122
this is fact, everytime some skilled young person leaves a country, the country becomes shittier. but our government literally told us to emigrate, so now we're getting shittier by the day
>>79561088
>skilled immigration is a huge benefit
It devastates a lot of developing countries and cripples a lot of domestic workers.
>>79561342
"islam is incompatible with american society".
"indians poo in the streets"
there, no more visas for muslims or indians
>>79560737
I'm not even sure about that. It is still saturation of market. Our country now is in funny situation, we don't have skilled factory workers, traders and manual laborers. The foreigners don't cut it because of work ethics and language barrier, so our companies have no other option than to raise wages (and how they squeel about it, poor millioners) and a lot of them actually revived programs in coalition with high schools and will train their own workers.
>>79561297
that's the issue, he says the jobs will get outsourced
>>79561088
Australia has a points based immigration system so very little people enter unless they're in the commonweatlh, most people divert themselves away from australia anyways because it's not the most relevant country. America is.
>>79560860
I know but I need an argument against.
Do you have statistics on how this affects other factors, quality of life, infographs?
>>79561342
It's like I said, it only benefits corporations, they have no need to train natives and it keeps the wages low, meanwhile they can sell them product still.
>>79560491
It doesn't benefit you or me in the slightest. Imagine if companies had to train their workers and pay a fair wage. Teenagers slacking? Shiiiit, import jamal and pay him 5 bucks an hour instead of 10. That's what happens here.
(((skilled labour)))
>>79561489
thats why it should happen on moderation
>tfw milliband campaigned based on a promise to bring thousands of foreign nurses, a lot of them portuguese, into the NHS
>>79560099
Stealing the "brightest and best" from other nations will ensure that every 3rd world shithole will always stay a 3rd world shithole.
>>79561542
sounds like you just need to invest in education, senpai
>>79560099
Give me sauce and I will give you my dissertation on immigration and why it is a detriment to any country that is involved.
>>79561653
this is true, minus the stealing part. the people migrate more than willingly. some dream of it.
>>79561497
Send infographs
I can argue the former but the latter is what I'm trying to argue.
>>79560099
Nothing wrong with it, we need people who'll offset all the neets by contributing to the economy
>>79561297
>wage stays artificially low
top kek.
only about 150k-250k H1B visas are issued. The American workforce is about 175-200M. H1B's are just a small drop in the bucket.
>tech/IT company hires a foreign worker on visa and can pay them 20% less than employees with citizenship.
>they work under the ever present threat of visa expiration/deportation if they fail to do their jobs or try to negotiate for a raise.
>they work with the knowledge that they can be replaced from the long line of qualified workers waiting to get visas
>employees with citizenship know this and work with the threat of being replaced by a foreigner who is willing to work for 20% less than them
>they know foreign labor depresses their own salaries and undermines their leverage in negotiation
>despite both sides being used by the corporation, they resent and distrust each other because of the mutual threat each other pose.
The corporation wins both ways and uses their increased profits to lobby for more H1b visas under the guise of "diversity" and "inclusion".
Tell him that skilled migration leads to a brain drain the third world that will doom those regions to suffering without end. Tell him that skilled migration is actually extremely racist and designed to keep most of the world in a state of ignorance.
>>79561835
And yes, that's a trap. If you wouldn't tap that you're the faggot not me.
>>79561705
Why don't you just send it?
>>79561566
He's not a liberal/leftie he's capitalist but not protectionist. He's arguing from a "free market perspective" and I pretend to be "fiscally conservative". He says the corporations will just outsource the job and that the government will lose tax revenue and that the market will lose value.
>all this talk of visas and skilled labor
go to london, every supermarket is staffed with pakis and indians, where's the british workers senpais
>>79561088
The only benefit it has over outsourcing is that they spend wages in your country.
>>79562140
Those Indians/Pakistanis have been in the country for generations.
>>79561017
Horse and sparrow economics didn't work.
>>79562156
>implying many of them don't send money back overseas
>>79561974
>mfw I'm going to be a skilled immigrant in your country.
Stop making me feel bad, not my fault Rhodesia's dead. ;_;
What am I supposed to do ? The country i grew up in is gone ?
>>79562202
really? and they still working supermarkets? what was the point of migrating then
>>79560099
Skilled immigration?
Are you fucking for real?
I know that pol is 99% full on plebs, who have never seen a university from the inside, but have to know that the US literally imports the best scientists and engineers from all over the world.
Any uni/research institution is filled with skilled immigrants from LOO, Mexico, Japan, China etc.
How do you think the US can still innovate despite ABSOLUTE HORSESHIT education?
By importing talent.
Lesson is over kids. Back to cuck-posting.
>>79561920
Again the argument here is that if we end them they'll be deported and the jobs will either be outsourced to Canada or Mexico, you guys are saying the same shit I've been saying. The issue with IT is that infrastructure matters a lot less than human capital. The jobs are easily outsourced or moved to neighboring countries this will lose us money.
>>79560099
If we take all the doctors, engineers, and scientists from the third world, they will never advance. (And due to regression to the mean, their children will likely be dumb again)
For our country it's good one for generation, and bad for the rest.
For the country they're coming from, it's bad.
Our own population is enough for our land. It's what our infrastructure is built for, anyway.
>>79562093
>skilled labour
>writing shitty code and flipping burgers
cmon now
>>79562337
Thats literally what the US does son.
>>79561653
we're not at all stealing the "best and brightest" anyways
even the best from a shithole are still shit
>>79560099
>the GDP argument
Holy fuck, who gives a shit? We live in a country with finite resources. I'd rather be richer myself, with a smaller GDP, than poorer, but with a higher GDP. Smaller pie, bigger slice, I'm good. Fuck you, Pablo, Wang, and *click noises*
>>79562282
Pretty much. They came when the UK had an "open-door" immigration policy after the breakup of the Commonwealth. The UK imported cheap labor to work in factories, and they stuck around. After the industries died they started working in supermarkets
>>79562413
That's why we are voting a immigration reform president
>>79562413
I didn't say we didn't. I meant we shouldn't.
>>79561489
I don't care if it ruins other countries. It's not enough that we succeed, others must fail.
Drain their brains. Do it.
>>79562140
I think britpakis are native born, they dont have strong accents and are liquor store owners calling for sharia law.
I'm talking about the US, I don't really care about how it is in the EU because you guys are like 90%+ white. In the US we already have three times as many minorities as a proportion of our population.
>>79562255
Why don't you go to Europe instead?
>>79562294
Easy for you to say because nobody speaks German and immigrates to Austria outside Europe. Your only problem is unskilled refugees who cant speak the language and theres like a total of ten thousand for your whole country.
Our country is 60% white, even germany is over 95% white.
For you it's easy, for us it isnt.
>>79562227
My point was more that there is no realistic benefit. Outsourcing is a huge problem and this is only slightly better.
>>79562337
That's not how it works, It implies that free breeding in the original immigrant population occurs. If a Mexican with an IQ of 120 marries another Mexican with an IQ of 120 they'll have smart kids. Usually immigrating groups tend to be self selecting with respect to intelligence i.e only the smartest make it here and breed with the smartest. That's how the 3rd gen Iranians here are super smart
>>79562738
Not only that, they are still outsourcing and they are "insourcing" workers. How does this benefit the average worker at all?
>>79562658
Regression to the mean, comrade. Skilled workers will help us for one generation, but their children will likely revert back to the average IQ of wherever they came from, and they'll be stuck here with us.
Why is /pol/ so against even skilled migration? Only the host country benefits.
>>79560099
http://cis.org/all-employment-growth-since-2000-went-to-immigrants
/thread
>>79562294
Lol good meme. Thinking loos are beyond anything other than poo technology
>>79562391
I agree. But I can't use that in an aargument, portugal has some good arguments on labor saturation.
>>79562527
He's saying that "skilled immigrants earn more" and that they raise per capita GDP.
Technically, this is true.
Problem is that it's twisted because they're taking our jobs.
>>79562607
We're talking about America not Pakistan here.
>>79562710
B-but Straya's the closest thing to Rhodesia left. Also I like the weather it's way better than my native Scotland/Ireland.
I'd go to South if it were still White friendly, I don't want to lose my cultural identity (White African) ;_;
>>79562898
>White countries benefit from non-Whites
Nice meme.
>>79563032
I don't know enough about economics I'm afraid. From personal experience there is no benefit other than more minimum wagers. Most of our doctors come from uk or germany.
Sure as fuck ain't getting brown scientists.
>>79562779
>two smart mexicans WILL make a smart mexican child
Not true, friend. It's always possible, but it generally tends towards the average of their race.
Two dumb asian parents will usually have their offspring tend towards the asian average, which would be higher.
>>79562837
It doesn' the argument is that if they insource we gain tax revenue and GDP boost from the multiplier (they spend their money in the US, the money in turn creates American jobs)
A pajeet, a yugo, a chink, or an achmed working here for 200k for facebook is likely to spend that money here and settle here.
>>79562898
Found the non-white.
>>79562779 Read
>>79562887
>>79563032
That anon talked about supermarkets in the UK.
>>79563081
stop being racist.
>>79563187
>less wage, less taxes, more drain on supply
It only benefits corporations, it doesn't create more jobs, you gotta be kidding. Look at my country, we are fucked.
>>79562908
>>79562898
>>79563018
>http://cis.org/all-employment-growth-since-2000-went-to-immigrants
Listen, I don't care about poor skilled.
I care about high skilled as I mentioned.
The issue here is he's arguing if the jobs are taken away they wil be outsourced.
I'm asking how to argue with that.
I've said this for the tenth time.
>>79563156
>What is natural selection
Regression to the mean only functions under the premise that immigrant groups breed freely with their original population, It doesn't account for a bottle neck. I read up on it extensively. It's not inherently tied to race rather the IQ of the parents.
It works both ways , genetic expression is intrinsically bound to the parents selection pressures
If 2 IQ 60 Asians breed they'll have IQ 60 kids.
>>79563428
They aren't importing highskilled labour, that's the point.
>>79560860
capitalists benefit. laborers do not. if you have assets, you benefit. if you are a laborer, the value of your labor goes down. importing foreigners benefits only the wealthy (well and the foreigners perhaps).
>>79562093
Capitalists always forget that someone has to buy their shit, and that someone is rather small part of world population, located in western world. If they drive down buyer potential, who will buy their crap? The imported guy that they pay a third of wage? I think not.
>>79562093
Have him read this article about "free trade". Also, pic related. It is not conservative at all. H1B's are a part of this bs ideology. If he is religious, ask him if stock prices are our god.
http://dianawest.net/Home/tabid/36/EntryId/3202/What-Is-a-Conservative-What-Defines-the-GOP.aspx
>>79562093
Because everyone here arguing against it is correct. The best kind of correct. Not only are families in the U.S. having children & swelling the population, but jobs have been moved overseas or being filled by Visa workers. When politicians announce they created new jobs, those jobs go to foreigner Visa workers. Immigration does nothing to boost economic growth or create jobs, it creates a big burden on the country since the majority of refugees & government sanctioned immigrants get welfare and stay on it.
Everyone considered a tinfoil hat wearer years ago on this was right about it - its about ensuring the left gains more power through votes in the important states that matter. Its to generate hate between the people, so the politicians can use each conflict, no matter how small, to push more laws that bolster government power. In some immigration situations, politicians were paid either in favors, board positions for themselves and/or family, or money to push immigration for some foreign leader/country.
It is nothing but a giant plan to drain the country by foreign rulers, politicians, and corporate moguls. Personally, I see the idea of moving the jobs overseas years ago the first step in creating a globalist-run union. Take away the work so people have to rely on the government & begin the process of removing their right to defend themselves, disarming them & preventing people from standing up against a union from happening/United States being dissolved, then removing 1st amendment rights (SOPA and shit, remember?) so they can't even organize to protest or stop what is happening.
All while putting the ideas in the heads of those weak-willed & minded who just want to be a part of something to get loud & actually give up their rights & call for more government. Then the politicians use this noise generated by a minority to push laws because "the people say so, see?"
If people don't stand ASAP, America will be a memory.
They should allow h1b in whatever numbers are necessary but tax them so foreign workers are 25% more expensive. Then businesses will only hire foreigners as a last resort or for exceptional talent.
>>79563626
>evolution happens over one generation
>>79563156
>>79563626
How do you think Ashkenazi's got their 115 IQ's. Even with European admixture they still average around 33% Semitic genes, that should've lowered the IQ below ours but they self selected. Of course now they're close to their genetic ceiling than we are so we have the potential to out select them
>>79563626
>Zimbabwean education
>>79563927
or just do what they already do and pay them lower wages
>>79563931
>What is selective breeding 2 black Labradors fuck, they have one golden lab, which grows up and fucks a golden lab which gives birth to a litter of mostly golden labs.
>Le recessive genes concentration based on selection pressures
IQ is quite responsive, it's raised by an average of average parents IQ (60% of mothers) +0.8 per generation.
>>79564146
The wages are reported for tax purposes, there could be a government tax on foreign workers and a stipulation they can't be paid x% less than the average of the other employees at their position so they will always be more expensive.
>>79564075
It's 3AM here, Let's see you do this at 3AM. Also I got an distinction in biology @ college
>>79564075
Is that an insult ? We have a pretty good private education system
>>79560099
I lost my job to a bunch of h1b visa monkeys. Hardware engineer job outsourced to India last month. Tell that shit bag to come over my house and talk to me about it. I will educate the shit out of the faggot
>>79564359
sounds like gommunism
>>79562887
If they're European it doesn't matter. Make them assimilate and we're good.
>>79560099
Besides rational economic arguments, if you are arguing with an emotional dipshit use the braindrain argument.
"America is taking the best and brightest from developing countries to meet their needs, making it even harder for 2nd or 3rd world countries to improve. How will things get better for the poor poor non-americans if we keep taking their most driven, intelligent members of society?"
>>79564414
>Also I got an distinction in biology @ college
jungle degrees are not relevant
they're roughly equivalent to a high school diplioma in civilization m8
>>79562056
>this is what fags in Zimbabwe actually believe
>>79564703
IGCSE you moron
I'm not black
>>79564359
or we could just not import foreigners. why do people think this is not an option? the problem our nation has with not being able to fill skilled technical job openingsmand needing to import workers is a failure of higher education that should be addressed.
>>79564884
>IGCSE
that's literally high school material though
>>79560099
They drive down wages by inflating the labor market. The only people that benefit are the big businesses and banks.
>>79565121
>What are A-Levels
>>79565315
not a real university education that's for sure
>>79560099
I never met a worker from USA on h1b worth it. They are slow and not very bright and always lie on their resumes. I contract IT work there, companies waste their money on these guys while the skilled workers find better pay. Then the whole project is slowed down no matter how well the management is.
>>79560099
>He says that they don't collect welfare and that if it was ended the visas the jobs would be outsourced, we'd lose out on GDP and tax revenue, and that our economy would be worse off.
They're already out sourced, tell those kikes to fuck off.
>>79560491
I work at an engineering firm. I would say that about 3/4 of the people I work with were not born in Canada. It was hard as hell to get a job, took months of applying and interviewing (and that's with interning experience and a decent gpa). The lack of STEM degrees is a meme. Multinationals just don't want to train people. It takes years before someone who is moderately specialized in the engineering field can do the job without over sight. They would rather pick from a global pot of experienced individuals than provide on the job training to a recently graduated engineer. Companies don't care that they are destroying the opportunities of the next generation.
>>79564414
Thanks Zimbabwe guy.
Interesting info.
>>79565489
No shit, I'm 2 years into my degree in Straya. That's what happens when you're 20 and White in a 3rd world shithole.
>>79565584
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
You're welcome bru :^)
>>79560737
>non-indian immigration
Nothing wrong with Indians from higher castes.
The brown as poop pajeets we don't want but the lighter skinned ones are good. Funny that a Portugese should say that actually, as Goa, which was formerly Portuguese and is mostly catholic, is one of the few places in India where I would accept "skilled" immigration from.
>>79561342
Why are people butthurt about skilled people "taking muh jobs?"
It's your own damn fault if you chose to major in transgender studies instead of STEM. Now you have no job. Why do you think so many Starbucks employees are black?
>>79565929
Yes, I am.
I do recall reading IQ is like .6 to .8 heritable. Seems about right.
>>79562282
Being a pet dog in the west is better than being an Indian in India.
>>79565932
>Goa
isn't that the biggest collections of hippies and degenerates east of Germany?
>>79560099
His argument hinges on the idea that there are more jobs than citizens are willing to do. I'm sure you can point to unemployment statistics to prove him wrong.
>>79566004
Interestingly enough IQ's more inheritable through the maternal line for some reason. I guess it might have something to do with female IQ's concentrating around the mean. That's why I'm a sapio-sexual ;) (Scottish girls only though, Not racist just proud of my heritage)
>>79565534
businesses dont have the time to train lazy millenials who can only do math and write papers about phony bullshit. they have no job skills out of college except fucking math. the colleges are shit and they cost a fortune. that is the root of the problem. look for where all the progressives hide and you will find the heart of any problem.
>>79566345
>Interestingly enough IQ's more inheritable through the maternal line for some reason.
Fug. My dad was the genius one though.
Any idea, how much more do women cluster around the mean than man?
>>79563855
Completely free immigration would work if we abolished all welfare
>>79566266
I don't know a single Goan living here who does not have a STEM or medicine degree and does not work insanely hard at the top of their field.
Admittedly, I know about 5 Goans.
>>79566565
>lolbertarians are this cucked
>>79566565
no immigration would work with or without welfare.
>>79566622
thinking on it it's probably the other way around
with Brits and Americans being the degenerates in Goa not the Goans in Britain and America
>>79560099
How to get a professional (degree) job in a first world country:
>Move to a third world country.( Do not give up citizenship.)
>Apply for a work visa.
>Get job.
>Move back to original country.
>Employers think you're an immigrant.
>profit.
>>79566539
I can't recall the specific point correlation but I do know men tend to be more polarized i.e they fluctuate to and cluster around the extremes (very high to very low)
For every 25 guys with an IQ of 160 there's 1 woman. If I remember correctly (I probably don't but it was something like that)
I think it's because men are twice as selected for in comparison to women. This is though to be mainly because we were hunters in a high risk environment. (Mfw men literally created humanity while women sat back and spread their legs for the strongest invading tribes)
You can google search the study
>>79567290
Thanks again, Zimbabwe Molyneux.
>>79560099
If we end it, then China develops better technology and a better space program. We don't want that.
>>79562710
>USA
>60% white
When is this meme going to end?
H1B visas are used to destroy the ability of tech workers to guarantee a living wage. Tech companies use them to make engineers as cheap or cheaper than fast food workers, and to discriminate against older, more experienced workers.
Unlike the American Medical Association which lobbies for restrictions on who can practice medicine in the USA, or the Bar Association that restricts the practice of law to citizens, or any of the other professional rights organizations that protect their workers without the unfortunate nomenclature of "UNION", the Tech workers never formed professional associations to protect their industry, and were too cucked by their dogma to form a union.
As for outsourcing to other countries, they already do, but you cannot outsource Networks without subjecting them to foreign laws, so instead Silicon Valley makes illegal hiring restrictions (such as no headhunting and non-disclosure agreements), and lobbies for H1B visa workers to flood the market.
Welcome to Free Trade: The Bullshit Edition. Where trade is free for those with the money, and trade is slavery for those without.
Not only are the H1b visas a problem but lack of pay increases in corporations are a major problem as well.
If I work diligently and loyally for a company for five years, they hire me and train me up to be qualified, but only give me a 3% wage increase a year adjusted for inflation.
However, another company will offer me a 10-30% wage increase if I transfer there with the skills I learned with my parent company.
So my parent company trains me but then cuts me off at the knees by only giving me a salary increase of 3%.
It's goddamn retarded. If a company is going to train someone, at least pay them enough with salary increases or bonuses to mitigate transfer to another company.
Its as if companies want people smart enough to work for them well, but then expect them to be naive enough to only accept a 3% wage increase.
fucking retarded.
>>79567854
Do you know how many spics we have now?
>>79568157
Nigger the us is easily over 70% white IN SPITE OF all the illegals
Maybe not in commieforina
>>79567467
K-den :^)
"Zimbabwe Molyneux" lol
I think women also tend to congregate around the mean because there social position is contingent upon the group, fitting in with a clique ( Being of a average intellect would make that easier). Whereas historically men compete against one another over limited resources so we'd select for anything that gives us the edge/advantage.
Female strategy is to play it safe and be average (And spread their legs for the victor), Men however must be exceptional to survive and procreate.
Nice conversation, See you around m8 =^)
I need to get some shut-eye
>>79563984
Over centuries.
>>79560099
Immigration can present a security issue in regards to the "Diaspora effect", and we have to be very conscientious of the "political" backgrounds of people that we bring in in large numbers.
i'm actually going to go counter-current here and say that refugee resettlement from disparate parts of the world of very small minority communities is okay, if they are "politically independent" of large blocs of hostile people.
For instance, Yazidi's and Karen would be probably much better than allowing huge numbers of regular migration flows from powerful countries.
>>79560099
>He says that they don't collect welfare
They don't collect unemployment and poverty benefits. They are eligible for social security and other benefits though. Also they and their families consume public services. Once they establish themselves here they can act as sponsors for family members who are not "skilled".
>if it was ended the visas the jobs would be outsourced,
Not true; creating the same jobs in their home countries would be impossible due to local conditions (corruption, poverty, lack of infrastructure), that's why they want to come here in the first place. The more likely result would be that the work would go undone, or be done at a higher cost.
>we'd lose out on GDP and tax revenue, and that our economy would be worse off.
Only true if they are not displacing or holding down the wages of workers in this country, which they tend to do. As that's the case, they tend to keep tax receipts down and do harm to the economy by suppressing other people's income.
>Redpill me on H1b Visas
The main thing to remember about HB1s is that they trap workers with a particular employer. Until/unless he gets permanent residency a visa holder must work for his sponsor or leave the country. This is a massive advantage for the employer wand helps keep wages down and hours long.
>>79560099
>I'm arguing with a guy...
Ask him why he thinks GDP is so valuable.
