So my friends are of the opinion that wanting out of the EU is just based on xenophobia. Not being British or living in the UK means I don't give a fuck about how many migrants live there. But the anti democratic nature of the organization is really fucking frightening considering how powerful they could become as a super state.
Somebody post sources of valid reasons why they're undemocratic that don't mention muh immigrants at all.
https://gavinsblog.com/2005/05/eu-just-wont-take-no-for-an-answer/
I found this thing which damn near gave me a heart attack to think that it's not a panel out of a comic book but a real live person in control of hundreds of millions of people.
stop posting hot wheels for your stupid nazi rants.
>>78957869
I don't get any of these memes but thanks for the bump.
>>78957802
>anti democratic nature of the organization
Not this shit again. Go read a book on EU law. Or go read Wikipedia, that's up to you. Just stop talking out of your ass.
just look at greece, the worst rape since nanking and it's directly because the EU doesn't give a shit about its member states
>>78958260
>ask country to vote on something
>they vote no
>tell them to vote on it again
Is that how democracy works? Keep holding elections until they pick the "right" choice?
Guess I've just got brain problems.
>>78958531
When the fuck did the EU ask for another referendum? They said they would respect the outcome of this one and asked for the breakup with the UK to be quick and swift. Only sore losers and idiots who didn't know the implications of their vote want another one.
>>78958990
Not on brexit.
A KEK
OH WHEELS
AHAHAHAHA
>>78957802
A British guy on CNN put it well. He said that the EU said they would get 100,000 immigrants but they got 300,000 and Britain just couldn't handle that, logistically. That means they have to make room in all their governmental services, education, healthcare, etc for people and they actually planned for SOME but got way more than they could reasonable even take care of.
Basically it's not that the British don't want to help, they just can't and it's unfair to ask them too.
Are you xenophobic for not wanting a hundred random strangers living in your house when you are struggling to feed yourself and your family? That's what's going on a national scale.
>>78959324
So? Pro-EU national governments chose to ignore or repeat those referendums. There is no EU bogeyman out to get us. Our governments and heads of state ARE the EU. You don't like it? Vote for UKIP. Or the Front National. All it takes is a government majority against the EU and the particular country that elected it would leave. The right of secession is granted to every member-state.
>>78960338
That's the thing. The national government makes the people vote again. Those heads of state are part of the commission and in all likelihood get a kickback for towing the line. The president doesn't need to be the one ignoring the people directly but the fact that the chains of the organization do so make it undemocratic. Literally ignoring the vote or demanding people vote properly is not democracy.
>>78957802
Do you know why the proposed constitution wasn't ratified? It was due to the referendums. Jesus you Americans are dumb.
>you got that near heart attack from your burgers
>>78960835
Seeing all the commotion about UK's vote, I can say politicians should ignore the rabble, especially in a non-binding referendum, and do what's best for the country and not what gets Farage's limp dick hard.
>>78961376
>muh benevolent dictatorship
You're beyond help, Hanz.
>>78958531
That's how it works in 2016.
>>78958531
Another dumb American. You act as if nothing was re-negotiated but just put to a vote again 'until they liked it'.
>>78961376
This will legitimate the brexit voters to defend the vote with violence.
>>78960835
You elect a government because you know that there is no way the people can run the country by themselves. They are given the chance to choose the general direction it will take by way of elections, but in the end the governments will do things that may be against their will, but still in the population's best interest. Joigning the EU is (or was, before the eurocrisis and the refugee crisis) in most countries best interest. Overriding referendums is understandable when you have this in mind.
>>78961819
Well, you're an ignorant idiot who's afraid of something he doesn't understand; see your dumb posts about 're-voting until they like the outcome'. It's almost as if you don't know how your own country's law making process works and that you're incapable of transferring that knowledge to the EU stuff.
>>78962114
"We the people"
You will literally never understand that government is meant to be the will of the people. Going against that is not kosher.
>>78961819
>having an issue with "do what's best for the country"
nice one, zteve.
i fully support the brexit but jesus christ, cameron and his goons were betting absolutely everything on it not happening and now theyre trying to stall article 50 as long as possible
>>78962085
In your fantasy world perhaps, but not in reality.
>>78961376
>>78962271
>>78962387
*sigh*
Guess we better dust off the old posters and sharpen the spoons.
Third times the charm, Fritz.
Are Germans manlets? Because they don't seem to learn.
>>78962396
Uhm no, if the politicians ignore the vote and dont do the brexit means that the UK is not a democracy but a dictatorship.
I hope the second gun powder plot is successful
>>78962114
The refugee "crisis" is not a crisis to the EU's leaders. The crisis is that people are complaining about it and wanting to leave.
The ethnic displacement of Europeans is one of the key goals of the EU. You can't separate them.
>>78962387
If the people vote 100% to mass suicide and the leaders ignore that vote because it's "what's best" it's a fucking dictatorship. I don't give a shit if it's what's best. Who defines best interest? Follow the will of the people. That's your job as an elected official. How long will a benevolent dictator be benevolent? Germans really never learn.
>>78961376
the problem with jerry is that he is always an authoritarian bootlicker, even in a system where he is getting cucked thoroughly
>>78962351
Americans in general have a different approach to democracy. In most of Europe we see it as representative democracy (not we the people, but we the people through our elected officials, who happen to know best). And let's be realistic here: the majority of people is not equiped to make informed and sensible decisions for the betterment of the country as a whole.
>>78957802
It's absolutely not. I'm not xenophobic at all; I just don't want to see my country enveloped into a federal European superstate where the elected body is the weakest and least powerful.
>>78963038
That's not how we see democracy though. Remember, Americans have essentially British style democracy with an elected king.
>>78963021
That's what I don't get.
You speak to Germans about questioning rules and it's like your suddenly speaking a language they don't understand.
>"You mean I can have something happen to me OTHER than getting fucked in the ass?"
"Yes, Fritz, that's exactly what I'm sayi
"YOU LIE, ENGLISHMAN"
>>78962994
This.
Germans don't understand it though because they love to be sheeple and somebody's subject because they can't even imagine what freedom of speech is.
>>78963079
That's what I'm asking for solid sources on. Disregard the paid German shills.
>>78963394
>paid
>>78962850
What /pol/ will never understand is that no one in their right mind will ever publicly admit to be against refugees. Not if they want to be respected. Because there is an established caveat that we must help those in need at every cost. And that's what Germany and the EU are doing. The problem is that what's right is not always what's necessary. Taking in refugees is right in theory, but not what we should be doing for the future social cohesian and peace of the continent. The refugee crisis is, first and foremost, a PR crisis.
>>78963643
*enslaved
>>78957802
The latest one is the document leaked by the polish reporters. There have been threads about it here in /pol/.
France and Germany deciding the future of EU behind everyone elses backs. Wasn't EU supposed to be about all EU members working together towards common goal? if so, why are Germany and France doing this without anyone else? Do they not trust their partners in the EU? We elect people to do work like this but Germany and France decide to ignore the democratic institution that is supposed to deal with these issues. Why elect representatives at all when they just end up as puppets with no real power?
>>78963194
Probably a more continental point of view, but americans, especially conservative americans, are anti-government in a way I've never seen or heard of in Europe.
>>78963394
You already got the advice to go stop talking out yer ass and read a book instead.
You don't seem to comprehend your own democracy, yet you want to rail about the EU's processes which aren't much different.
Are you just trying to reinforce your stupidity and ignorance by collecting 'heart stopping' articles from 10 years ago?
>>78957802
>>78964051
Why do you like the EU's dick in your mouth so much, fellowhans?
>>78963668
I'd say first and foremost it's hundreds of thousands of real people knocking on your EU door.
>>78957802
I mainly want out because of corruption.
EU is also completely incompetent, as shown with the way they handled the Greek and immigrant crisis.
>>78963965
We aren't anti government. We're anti big government. The country was founded on the idea of government for the people. We broke off from Europe because we didn't think our voices were being heard. Government programs and legislation are fine if they can avoid fucking with your every day life. Leaders are fine when they are accountable to the people. From what I've seen of EU leadership, they are none of those.
>>78957802
They ignored the Dutch vote.
http://www.dutchnews.nl/features/2016/01/83847/
They ignored the greek vote
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/19/greek-people-austerity-eu-greece-economic-crisis-democracy
It's literally written in their treaty, they can ignore referendums, they can ignore democracy & what people vote for.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2200026/EU-Constitution-author-says-referendums-can-be-ignored.html
They also ignored the Irish & made them vote again. They ignored a french referendum too.
>>78959324
The referendum done in the Netherlands just this year needs to be added to the list. They voted no but the result was ignored.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-netherlands-eu-ukraine-idUSKCN0X70SJ
>>78963668
Helping those in need doesn't mean you let them into your country en masse. I'm ashamed to share a country with you fucking cucks, every time there's an election I'm reminded that everyone here is an idiot and this country will literally never get out of the gutter. Then you tax people like me more and fuck up the economy further.
Fucking die. So many good people worked to make this country and now it's left to you absolute retards to run it into the ground.
>>78957802
Democracy, independence, sovereignty and nation.
Imagine if America were in a North American Union with Mexico and Canada but bankrolled by America, with the parliament in Puerto Rico gerrymandered so that America has the lowest per capita representation, the legislative, executive and judiciary an unelected, unaccountable, untransparent, unremoveable cabal, they want to disband your army and replace it with their own, they also want South America to accede, and free movement of peoples, but of course everyone moves to America because it's the best. Oh and they import endless millions upon millions of muslims into the middle of the cities. Does that sound like a vote winner to you?
>>78964051
>EU's processes which aren't much different.
EU is completely different from USA.
>>78963940
What, member states cannot craft proposals anymore and not have them public until they think they're presentable?
Basic idiocy abounds in these threads, it's ridiculous.
>>78964462
>They voted no but the result was ignored.
No, it's too early to tell.
>>78964051
>American democracy:
>vote in a congressman for your district and two senators
>each state gets two senators and a proportional amount of congressmen in relation to population
>vote in a president every four years
Every person in this chain is accountable to the people and can be voted out easily if they do some shit you don't approve of.
The only non elected officials are cabinet members and supreme court justices. But scotus only preservers interpretation of the law. They don't right it.
On top of that states can and regularly do tell the federal government to fuck off on certain regulation. See marijuana and abortion.
>>78964423
A few more ignored referenda than that.
>>78964078
Everyone forgets the V.A.T fiasco
The EU rules dictate our VAT rates must be 15-20%
When the tories wanted to lower taxes on green power the EU over ruled.
We are not allowed to encourage alternative energy because of the EU
>>78964566
You are allowed to do that but it goes against the spirit of the European Union. If you are pro- EU you should be worried about mingling like this since it breeds distrust towards EU. Also no need for ad hominem.
>>78964260
And how to deal with these people is a matter of public image: do we want to send them back like that meanie Hitler would ? Or do we open our arms like Mother Teresa? It's as simple as that for the masses that learn about the world from their facebook feeds.
>>78964566
It's time to stop the apologetics for the EU and start lurking more reddit. It's over.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3662827/Has-Britain-avoided-European-superstate-France-Germany-draw-plans-morph-EU-countries-one-control-members-armies-economies.html
>>78964915
*write
>>78964915
Now reverse everything there and you have the EU.
>>78964465
Did you read my post? I didn't say we should let them in. I said letting them in was a matter of PR, the public image of countries and of the EU as a whole. It doesn't matter if it's not the right thing (and letting these people in en masse is not) as long as it LOOKS like the right thing. That's how you stay in power.
>>78965576
Except the EU never wanted to let them in, it just happened.
>>78964462
Even your own linked article says you're talking out of your ass, so what the hell is your problem?
>Dutch vote in non binding referendum with low turnout against Ukraine deal
>Dutch PM says they cannot move forward and agree with it
>EU process on hold due to the Dutch rrferendum's outcome
>EU waiting for Dutch to make suggestions
Somehow this is undemocratic? You people are retards who lack basic reading comprehension yet think they can talk about the EU.
It's just ridiculously annoying how you morons threaten to bring down a great achievement for Europe due to your incompetence and mental deficiencies.
>>78965576
>That's how you stay in power.
Just like how the full brunt of the media/political apparatus squeezed Britain to intimidate them into staying and yet failed entirely, right? No. You're just a cuck who licks the boots of other cucks.
>as long as it LOOKS like the right thing
To whom, you little bitch? Keep gobbling up the media's bullshit that everyone wants to get fucked over by "refugees."
I sincerely hope you, and all people like you, die.
>>78965083
Well in our case it was mainly dumb Austria dumping them on us and our generous asylum laws. Apart from your PR line of reasoning there's also human rights and common decency, something racists don't seem to have in the first place.
>>78965993
>I sincerely hope you, and all people like you, die.
That's pretty rude.
>>78965831
The EU is a disgusting, weak, mediocre, nation-wrecking, indefensible tyranny. What the fuck is wrong with you. Just fuck off.
>>78965993
WTF, are you literally retarded? I just said I was against letting these people in. I explained why this was happening: the vast majority of people pity the migrants and the governments and the EU, wanting to keep the support of the people, obliged. It's not right, but it LOOKS right, and that's what the masses care about. Go fuck tourself and learn how to read.
>>78965031
It's like you're saying that not having 24/7 unfiltered access to politicians notebooks and thoughts is a no no.
>>78966291
>human rights and common decency, something racists don't seem to have in the first place
Agreed. Just because I am against letting them in Europe doesn't mean I want them starving to death in Turkey or drowning in the Mediterranean. There are other, more effective ways of helping them, like financing refugee camps with living conditions in the Middle East.
>>78966480
So tyrannical they want you to fuck off asap due to your dumb out vote. Truly evil.
*schemes*
>>78958531
>>78966969
They only want to rush article 50 to strengthen their own negotiation position.
It is truly evil.
>>78966969
How did you escape. Get back in your oven.
>>78967218
Rush? Sure, and why wouldn't they? Cameron and others have talked about leaving _for years_ and made the referendum basically their election ticket. Now that they see the UK will be worse off and has to face a huge legal and negotiation clusterfuck their spineless politicians don't want to own their dumb actions and slogans. They're pathetic, unprofessional people who are holding a vast economic zone hostage for an innerpolitical heap of shit - yet again. Of course the EU is fed up with this behaviour and want to return to stability asap.
>>78968187
>Now that they see the UK will be worse off and has to face a huge legal and negotiation clusterfuck their spineless politicians don't want to own their dumb actions and slogans. They're pathetic, unprofessional people who are holding a vast economic zone hostage for an innerpolitical heap of shit - yet again. Of course the EU is fed up with this behaviour and want to return to stability asap.
Swap UK with EU and you have the reality. The revolting bile you spew is proof we did the right thing.
>>78966944
Which is essentially what the Turkey deal's about, but don't bother telling hicks on pol. It's much comfier to repeat headlines from Breitbart than to actually reflect on reality.
>>78968187
>why wouldn't they?
Because mutual economic prosperity is more important than Europhile butthurt.
Luckily our politicians get that, and have already declared to back Britain.
>>78957802
>wanting out of the EU is just based on xenophobia
Get new friends.
>>78968518
Yes, the Turkey deal is good.
Too bad the EU fucked it up by turning it into a clusterfuck of dozens of interlinked sub-deals.
>>78968515
The EU doesn't even have to renegotiate anything with the UK and could default to default tariff regulations.
Face it, none of your pathetic Brexiteers want to own this pile of shit you voted for. Why else wouldn't they invoke article 50, other than being unprepared, unconvinced of it being a good thing or just plain incompetent?
>>78968518
>ficki ficki
We don't want to be in the same open borders state as Turkey ahmed.
>>78967141
>people vote for A
>leaders give them B or make them vote again
That's not democracy.
>>78968645
That's why Merkel says the same, yet I can fully understand the EU top brass wanting them to fuck off already, after years of UK mimimi and special treatment while threatening to leave anyway. Then they vote and they seemingly don't have any plans for the shit they threatened for years.
>>78969073
Politicians don't matter anymore ahmed. The people have spoken.
https://next.ft.com/content/7b06dadc-323e-11e6-bda0-04585c31b153
>>78969559
>the EU isn't specifically designed to concentrate power, finance and industry in Germany
>>78969559
I think that they weren't prepared to leave because they really didn't think that it would happen.
I mean just look at the numbers 52 vs 48 it could have gone either way.
>>78969674
I heavily doubt you have an FT subscription so why do you link to that? Because a UKIP muppet did?
>>78965015
Also all the complete faggots complaining about the "tampon tax" last year should have voted leave. EU meant that we couldn't change which products had VAT and which didn't.
>>78970418
What's your point other than they're incompetent? It sounds like you're saying political parties shouldn't have programs and baseline plans because god know how the vote turns out.
I voted out because I don't want to live in a federal Europe. I don't want decisions that affect me being made by people who are unelected and who aren't accountable for their actions.
Heres how a friend of mine worded it:
28 people are chosen by the EU council. The EU council consists of heads of state. Whoever the EU Council votes for (you have no say), then goes to EU parliament to vote on (you have no say). What you have in essence is pretty much how the Pope gets elected - by buying votes.
http://ec.europa.eu/about/index_en.htm
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/european-council/
Once those 28 people are elected, they are free to propose all the laws they want. If they wanted to, they could propose laws that ban religion, or ban lifestyle choices or literally anything they wanted. Now you obviously don't see this sort of thing, its far more subtle - its mostly little things like banning the way a certain cheese is made because it makes x country unable to compete.
Its unlikely MEPs are going to go against what their countries representative has proposed, and other than that lobbyists are allowed to pay MEPs and even commissioners to vote in a certain way. This is how its worked on national government for a long time and people widely know this, however on an international scale its incredibly dangerous. Not only that! But if a bill is blocked by parliament, the commission can just keep sending it down! Again and again until it passes.
But forget even that for second. This is a system where "influence" is a big deal. Why do you think that is? Its because going against that influence has serious repercussions. You end up living in a system where the laws in your country are decided upon by others for their own benefit. The only way the EU could ever work, is by literally enslaving poorer countries, which is what we've already seen happen.
To make it a bit clearer:
EU Council = Heads of State
EU Commission = 28 people chosen by Heads of State
EU Parliament = Like 700 people voted for by local governments (UK has 8 representatives i think)
>>78957802
Tell them to ask the EU these questions. They will get rekt.
>How much power do you have?
>Where did you get this power?
>Who are you accountable to?
>How do we kick you out?
The truth is, you can't actually give an answer to these questions.
>>78966969
If our out vote is so dumb, why is half of Europe now wanting out? Also, why is the EU so scared of other countries leaving? Surely if the vote was dumb, no other country will want to run the risk of leaving the union.
>>78971022
Your friend is completely wrong.
The EU commission isn't elected at all.
No voting goes on.
They are picked through backroom negotiations.
Also the council is made up of heads of government (ie: prime ministers), not heads of state (Kings and Queens).
>>78970449
And? It has to be agreed upon by all states if you want to fly a 0% VAT. It wasn't 'the EU's fault. Plus, all member states agree on the VAT issue, especially in regards to hygiene products. It's a discussion which pops up every now and then in Germany, like why a VAT for horse stuff is lower than for basic necessities.
>>78970692
Being incompetent is the problem, you are right.
The government like the people is so split that they can only make compromises.
Like not cutting immigration. I myself hope that they don't compromise on leaving the EU.
>>78971623
Over here VAT on rabbit food is lower than VAT on guinea pig food.
But the EU has nothing to do with that, we're just silly like that.
>>78971570
The head of state holds the ultimate position of sovereignty. In the UK, sovereignty is held by parliament.
>>78971485
A gaggle of loud mouthed populists equates to 14 member states 'wanting out' in your world? No wonder you prop up that 'I voted out' in front of you as if it was a good thing.
Why would the EU want to lose any of its members? It's like asking why the _United_ Kingdom wouldn't want to lose a member state.
>>78971022
>they could propose laws that ban religion, or ban lifestyle choices or literally anything they wanted
False. There is a European Union Charter of Fundamental Rights that every EU institution and member-state must abide by. Your rights are very much protected. There are also limitations on the areas within which the EU may act. I sugest you read the Treaties.
>EU Parliament = Like 700 people voted for by local governments (UK has 8 representatives i think)
False. The citizens of the EU directly elect the members of the European Parliament.
>Not only that! But if a bill is blocked by parliament, the commission can just keep sending it down! Again and again until it passes.
What do you think is going to happen? The EU Parliament will go "This is too much! I just cannot handle the pressure and stress anymore!" and just approve anything the Comission wans?
>>78972319
It's cute you think that, but your Queen is your head of state.
>>78972441
So with one breath you say there's no chance of member states leaving, with the second breath you say there is a genuine danger of the EU losing member states. Jesus, Hans, make up your mind, proving you wrong is very difficult if you hold two opposite positions simultaneously.
>>78972319
Yeah and in the EU it's the member states. Why the hell do you think the UK could get special treatment if the EU was this evil tyrannical monster of your fantasies?
>>78972491
>There are also limitations on the areas within which the EU may act.
Hardly.
Not having clear limits is a major issue with the EU.
The US constitution is way better at that.
>>78972491
I don't get why this stupid 'argument' of 'sending the proposal again' is being repeated.
How are laws made in the UK? Introduced in lower house, checked by upper and send back if adjustments are need and so on, if I am not mistaken. Same in most democratic governments I guess. How horrible.
>>78972759
Only on a technicality. If she ever tried to take over she'd just be hung. She only exists for ceremonys sake.
>>78957802
am i the only one that sees the shadow of a person pushing the wheelchair ...but there is no person?
>>78973046
There are many. You have exclusive powers (EU only territory), concurring powers (both EU and member-states) and subsidiary powers (powers the EU can grant itself, within very strict and formal guidelines, to achieve a goal in a area in which the treaties have given it power to do so). The use of subsidiary powers are not very common.
>>78973674
Head of state is a mostly ceremonial job.
>>78973548
The difference in national government is that the people who can propose and repeal the laws are elected representatives, whereas those who can veto are appointed. Doing it that way is correct, otherwise your elected representatives are completely unable to influence laws already in place, which is basically just crazy.
>>78972957
As seen in your country, stupid decisions can be carried to the top by stupid people. I don't see 14 member states on the verge of leaving, that was your silly claim. I do see retards like le pen or wilders trying to be a farage though.
>>78973766
Name 3 things the EU could never meddle in.
>>78957802
Anyone noticed a guys shadow is pushing him?
>>78957802
These retards need to just look up "federalism". Jesus H Christ.
>>78973548
Most people seem to not understand the difference between the power to PROPOSE legislation and the power to APPROVE legislation. If there was an anti-EU majority at the European Parliament there would be a 4 or 5 year lockout period with no legislation being passed at all.
>>78973919
Because you're all too much a bunch of bitches.
>>78973892
What part of a EU ratification process and its procedures gives you trouble? Hint: the elected representatives of a state do the ratifying. Just because you don't like your own elected officials' voting behaviour doesn't mean the EU is eeeviil.
>>78974141
No, that is Cameron's shadow stabbing him in his back.
>>78973919
>>78973548
>>78973022
>>78972441
>>78971623
>>78970692
>>78970431
This was the correct decision ahmed. Mfw there's nothing you can do about it.
>>78974335
>our prime minister
>elected
>>78972491
Voter turnout for european parliamentary elections is constantly lower than turnout in national elections for member states. That's because the european parliament doesn't have any real power. It's the only parliament in the world that doesn't have the power to propose new legislation or repeal current legislation.
The ability to propose new laws resides with the European Commission, which is unelected.
>>78974335
Man, you really are a slippery fucker aren't you. I never said anything about having a problem with the ratification process, I never said I didn't like how my elected officials voted, and I never even said that elected representatives didn't ratify (in fact, I specifically said they do).
How about a yes or no answer to this one: do you think elected representatives should have the power to propose legislation? I'm sure you'll be able to worm your way out of the question, but give it a go.
>>78974068
Nonsense question. I don't have the powers memorized by heart. But the Treaties are online and you can read them. Everything not mentioned is your answer. I can give you one or two examples: 1. immigration policy from outside EU territory (yes, the UK being flooded with muslims and africans is entirely their own fault); 2. the rules pertaining to citizenship (ius soli or ius sanguini); etc.
>>78973919
So if it's only a few stupid people, why the fuck is everyone getting so concerned about a potential Next, Frexit, Dexit and Swexit?
>>78957802
Why is the shadow pushing him
>>78957802
At a certain point trying to reason with someone is a lost cause.
A simple 'fuck off' is usually the only recourse.
There's nothing wrong with xeno"phobia" but there are hundreds of PC reasons to leave
>>78974335
>elected officials somehow found time to write literally hundreds of thousands of items of legislation
You can stop lying now ahmed. It's over. Mfw the EU is a dead man walking.
>>78974778
>1. immigration policy from outside EU territory
LOL, they are currently working on exactly that.
Specifically forcing Eastern Europe to take in a share of the migrants.
>>78963668
>established caveat that we must help those in need at every cost
a caveat for suicide
how do we fix the youth, is the question the UK should be working on
>>78963278
What do you expect from a people that need laughter schools?
>>78974830
He's being 'helped' along by shadowy, unelected bureaucrats.
>>78974568
>Voter turnout for european parliamentary elections is constantly lower than turnout in national elections for member states.
True, but not the EU's fault.
>The ability to propose new laws resides with the European Commission, which is unelected.
The Commission is elected by the Parliament, which is elected by the people. Each member-state has their own commisioner (so, 28 in total) chosen by the national government to represent the country.
>The ability to propose new laws resides with the European Commission
True for the ordinary legislative procedure. But there are special legislative procedures in which this doesn't happen.
>>78957802
The European Commission is evil stuff. The EU deserves to be destroyed for that alone.
>>78975302
All that is non-binding. Only cucked countries like Portugal willingly accept their quotas. Asylum rules are all decided at national level.
>>78974825
Look at the markets, they don't like populists causing a ruckus. Look at the Ukraine visa thing and a poor turnout with populists winning blocking the political process because of 1 out of 28 states. People, especially gullible and uneducated, can of course have an effect.
>>78974335
>he doesn't know that multistage voting has great abuse potential to deny voters will
>>78958260
Yes tuga, EU is indeed very democratic :)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/03/eu-to-fine-countries-that-refuse-refugee-quota/
>>78975302
God forbid a supranational body is working on solving a prploblem which puts unequal pressure on a few states affected by the refugees due to their border location!
>>78974830
Obviously you never watched any of the announcements. It's not a shadow pushing him, it's Schaeuble rolling off stage while another is at the lectern leaning into it, you morons.
>>78976102
>refugee crisis
>crisis
No one expects things to run smoothly when there are grave problems that need imediate addressing.
>>78975357
Why, by denying them to potentially work in 27 other states with little hurdles to take, of course!
>>78976539
Invisible jews
>>78976198
>>78976539
>>78976792
>ficki ficki
Behave yourself ahmed.
>>78976198
>The EU literally takes control of a member states borders without its consent
>''Lol it's just solving a problem chillax bro''
The EU did jack shit to mitigate the crisis. And instead of pleading its member states to temporarily deal with the issue on their own, they turned into a power move and forced the shit on the few countries that weren't affected.
>>78976102
How horrible to have members who are far away from the borders (or just let them be on their way like some border states) where the refugees come in to actually pay and share in the problem.
>>78975357
>how do we fix the youth, is the question the UK should be working on
People must be taught to think with their heads, not their hearts. But that's not going to happen anytime soon.
>>78976973
There were (and still are) literally millions of people marching to Europe. We need a unified strategy to solve the problem, not each one on their own.
>>78975763
>True, but not the EU's fault.
How is it not the EU's fault when its parliament doesn't have the powers and rights of a parliament.
>The Commission is elected by the Parliament, which is elected by the people.
No, it's not. It's nominated by the Council of Ministers. The parliament only ''elects'' the president of the commission
>Each member-state has their own commisioner (so, 28 in total) chosen by the national government to represent the country.
Lol. Never mind the Commission members have to take an oath to specifically represent the EU, not their respective nations. But I'm sure they're just pretending.
>True for the ordinary legislative procedure. But there are special legislative procedures in which this doesn't happen.
Not good enough.
>>78975763
>The Commission is elected by the Parliament, which is elected by the people.
Yes, all 42% of them at the last election (2014). So, that's a commission that's appointed by a parliament that over half of european voters didn't vote for. You can hardly call that legitimate government.
Are you the recipient of some kind of E.U. assistance fund? You seem to be shilling pretty hard in defence of the European project.
>>78976973
You mean like the refugees were more or less forced on Germany? I mean sure, let's just accumulate them in rich Greece. Let them deal with the problem alone. Or super rich Hungary. I mean, why be member of a solidary union, right?
I wanna see your face if a million Russians suddenly squat in your cities. Surely you wouldn't want something like a distribution of them to other members to dampen the pressure you are experiencing, right?
>>78977125
You're misrepresenting it as a matter of fairness, when actually it is completely unfair. This is neat to what we fought our revolution over, this maximally invasive policy that was imposed without any representation.
>>78957802
meantime in the US...
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/02/obama-administration-and-un-announce-global-police-force-to-fight-extremism-in-u-s/
Obama Administration and UN Announce Global Police Force to Fight ‘Extremism’ In U.S.
by Pamela Geller2 Oct 2015
Loretta Lynch announced at the United Nations that her office would be working in several American cities to form what she called the Strong Cities Network (SCN), a law enforcement initiative that would encompass the globe.
This amounts to nothing less than the overriding of American laws, up to and including the United States Constitution, in favor of United Nations laws that would henceforth be implemented in the United States itself – without any consultation of Congress at all.
>>78977720
>an oath to work for all member states in a union you are part of and a supranational body instead of putting the demands of a single member first
>this is somehow bad
>>78977811
>You mean like the refugees were more or less forced on Germany? I mean sure, let's just accumulate them in rich Greece. Let them deal with the problem alone. Or super rich Hungary. I mean, why be member of a solidary union, right?
I don't give a shit where you accumulate them to. You respect a sovereign nations borders and immigration laws, period. You're gonna have to shill harder faggot.
>I wanna see your face if a million Russians suddenly squat in your cities. Surely you wouldn't want something like a distribution of them to other members to dampen the pressure you are experiencing, right?
Funny you should mention that since we had the exact threat of that happening back in the early 90s when the USSR dissolved. You know what we did? Mobilized the fucking army. But I'm guessing local decision making and actual border control is a strange concept to a federalist loser like yourself.
>>78977720
>How is it not the EU's fault when its parliament doesn't have the powers and rights of a parliament.
I was talking about voter turnout, not parliamentary powers.
>No, it's not. It's nominated by the Council of Ministers. The parliament only ''elects'' the president of the commission
"Following the election of the President [...] each Commissioner is nominated by their member state in consultation with the Commission President [...]. The President's team is then subject to hearings at the European Parliament which will question them and then vote on their suitability as a whole. If members of the team are found to be too inappropriate, the President must then reshuffle the team or request a new candidate from the member state or risk the whole Commission being voted down.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission#College
>Lol. Never mind the Commission members have to take an oath to specifically represent the EU, not their respective nations. But I'm sure they're just pretending.
Each country chooses someone who is in their best interest, naturally. But formally the commissioners work in the interest of the EU.
>Not good enough.
Not an argument, just your opinion.
>>78977962
Do the southern border states of your country deal with illegal immigration from Mexico solely financed out of their own pockets?
Maybe Trumpf should propose to let those states build the wall out of their own pockets.
>>78977125
>>78977811
>>78978159
>t. ahmed
Why should I bother reading what you say? We already left the EU. It is irrelevant to us now. The EU is now the enemy and we will help our Continental brothers follow us out. Your squalid globalist fantasies are dead. EU fanboys are BORING.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/682339/Brexit-spreads-across-Europe-Italy-France-Holland-Denmark-all-call-for-referendums
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-faces-brexit-contagion-as-populist-parties-across-europe-call/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36615879
>>78977764
To be fair, low voter turnout is your fault, and your fault only. It is considerably higher in other countries.
>>78957802
t. 60% man
>>78958990
>>78959324
>>78960338
>gets called out on your bullshit
>'so'
0.06
>>78978146
>by lying Pamela
Gee.
>>78977764
The people's desinterest in politics cannot be used as an argument to invalidate a democratically elected institution.
>>78965831
>bring down a great avhievement for europe
Stop being a cuck. The EUis trying to strip autonomy from its member states and you are busy arguing technicalities. There's going to be fucking outrage over this on an international scale and the euro will collapse.
>>78977764
>re you the recipient of some kind of E.U. assistance fund? You seem to be shilling pretty hard in defence of the European project.
No, I just study EU Law and happen to know what I'm talking about.
>>78978598
BORING.
>>78978670
>t. little englander
>>78978588
It's almost as if they think they vote for every member on any advisory committee or whatever in the realm of actual governing, or that they don't get the people in the EU in those positions were elected somewhere down the line in EU member states by the people.
>>78978588
The parliament only gives a vote of confidence for the Commission and its president. They're not elected if there's no election being held.
>Not an argument, just your opinion
Yeah funny how those work in politics. Made the damn Brits leave the union.
>Each country chooses someone who is in their best interest, naturally. But formally the commissioners work in the interest of the EU.
Not an argument, just an opinion.
.
EU law is above national law. Isn't that enough?
>>78978912
Little Englanders just destroyed the one ring to rule them all. How does that make you feel?
>>78978755
1. OP never mentioned the other referendums.
2. There was no bullshit to be called on.
3. Sod off.
3.
>>78978877
So that's why your posts are pretty much copy and paste high school level sophistry.
>>78978877
You sound like it. My cousin did it too. Must be interesting yet frustrating. Especially when you see all this dumb shit being reurgitated here.
>>78978765
>democratically elected institution
>EU
>mfw
We want our democratically elected representatives to form the legislature and executive directly. WHAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS. Anything else is tyranny.
Destroying the EU is best for everyone. Should've never expanded beyond trade, but greedy politicians decided to bring in millions of muslims and destroy nations.
Xenophobia is fine. There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to restrict immigration and being discriminatory in the acceptance process. If you operate from the position that liberals are right and you must not look "xenophobic," you've already lost.
Even King Jew Soros knows it's over for the EU. They cannot survive without one of the big four contributors given how many countries depended on the UK to help push their own interests.
>>78979372
BORING.
>>78978765
Completely wrong. Low voter turnout is consistently used to judge the legitimacy of a government.
>>78979500
Well then don't come crying when you don't the same treatment as before.
What have you done today to get your spineless stalling politicians to get a move on in regards to article fiddy?
>>78979033
"The EU is undemocratic" is one of the most ignorant statements made in this board (and the reason why, among other things, I have no respect whatsoever for the Leave campaigners). No one here seems to understand the concept of indirect, representative democracy. And when you present them with cold, hard facts they just yell "FREEDOM". There is nothing worse than willful ignorance.
>>78962114
>You elect a government because you know that there is no way the people can run the country by themselves
if you accept this then why even have the citizens vote period. Just go full dictatorship.
Is UKIP left wing eurosceptic?
>>78978700
>It is considerably higher in other countries.
42% is the combined percentage of voter turnout for all the member states.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/elections2014-results/en/election-results-2014.html
>low voter turnout is your fault, and your fault only.
Low voter turnout is the result of apathy towards european politics. People are apathetic because they know that IF they do vote, they are electing an MEP to a parliament that doesn't have any real power and so, by extension neither do they.
The E.U. referendum is an example of what happens when people do feel like their vote will make a difference. Turnout was 72%
>>78957802
That article from 2005
>>78979064
>The parliament only gives a vote of confidence for the Commission and its president. They're not elected if there's no election being held.
Indirect democracy. That's how it works.
>>78979891
So what it did to Greece was democratic?
The Lisbon treaty was democratic?
having 3 presidents that are not elected by the people of Europe is democratic?
having an entire commission not elected by the people of Europe is democratic?
Go fuck yourself before you cuck yourself, you cork nigger.
>>78979769
The only tears I will be crying are tears of triumphant jubilation.
I've spent the last four months arguing in all four corners of the internet why the EU is a bad thing. People like you would not listen, proving that the EU cannot be reformed, thus adding yet another reason to why we had to leave. Thankfully the people who matter did listen and this argument is now DEAD in the UK. We will win the debate with the Dutch, Swedish, Danish, French and Italians when the time comes too. Then it will just be you, your Eastern European parasites and the ficki fickis. Do you like the sound of that future ahmed?
>>78957802
I'm of the opinion that it's because the same leaders that covered up the Paki rape gang in Rotherham, and is still silencing any discussion of the ones in Derby, Oxford, Bristol, and Telford, used their authority to order their subjects to vote Remain. Or Else.
The peasants are revolting, and the modern aristocracy of celebrity princesses just can't understand why.
>>78979891
You mean like this moron below you?
>>78980033
I'm going to bed, have fun and good luck with your studies!
>>78980269
Did things that happened eleven years ago stop existing? Is the man that said it not in power anymore?
>>78979891
People get kind of upset because as soon as anyone brings up something like a referendum on this or that, faggots like you, or EU-representatives just snigger and say that it wouldn't mean anything because it conflicts with EU law/treaty/whatever. Surely you can understand how that will in the long run give people the impression that it's an undemocratic institution.
>>78979083
1. The EU literally could not exist without the power to impose its law on member-states.
2. The EU did not setal that bit of sovereignty. The member-states gave it away because they wanted to join the EU. Fair deal.
3. EU law is not above a member-state's constitution.
>>78979891
>indirect, representative democracy
The problem is that we do understand it. AND WE DON'T FUCKING WANT IT.
>>78979891
>"The EU is undemocratic" is one of the most ignorant statements made in this board (and the reason why, among other things, I have no respect whatsoever for the Leave campaigners).
Undemocratic is a matter of perspective. Multilayer voting is a bastard child of representative democracy, especially when there's absolutely no reason why for the system to be such.
>No one here seems to understand the concept of indirect, representative democracy.
I think they can understand the basics. It's the EU's own fault if it wants to bloat its own executive and legislative branches.
>And when you present them with cold, hard facts they just yell "FREEDOM". There is nothing worse than willful ignorance.
The cold hard facts are that the Commission isn't elected, as there has not been, nor will there be, an actual ELECTION.
My advise to you is, since you're studying EU law, either start advocating for a more transparent political system or start considering employment elsewhere.
>>78980414
>I shitpost on the internet about things I have no clue about
You're a real hero.
>>78979312
kek okay m8 you know best
>>78980712
>2. The EU did not setal that bit of sovereignty. The member-states gave it away because they wanted to join the EU. Fair deal.
>3. EU law is not above a member-state's constitution.
These two are lies. The first one is true.
>>78979891
>indirect, representative democracy.
because it literally is just a pacifier for the population. Its authoritarian control without totalitarian efficiency you cuck.
>>78979891
The EU literally has an unelected body (EU commission) that has the right to initiate legislation. What's the fucking point of having a parliament if they have to ask for permission to pass legislation? If that's not undemocratic, I don't know what is.
>>78980325
Call it whatever you want, it's not an election. Which you originally claimed it to be.
Step your game up, son.
>>78979891
Democracy means people in power out can be elected OUT. By your definition of democracy People's Republic of China is democratic just because they have indirect, representative method of voting people in.
There's no point, your friends are brainwashed. No amount of information from you will change that, you'll just tire yourself out trying to de-brainwash them.
Just accuse them of swallowing propaganda without chewing, make them prove to you it's racism, just piss them off, trigger them as hard as you can, have fun with it.
>>78979372
It's a lost battle. I've done this several times before and it's always square one with every new post. Frustrating when you think all it takes is reading fucking Wikipedia.
>>78961878
indeed
>>78980798
I understand more than you since you seem to think the EU is a good thing. I influenced thousands of minds over the past four months with rhetoric. You are turning more and more away. You defeat yourself.
>>78979500
I was talking about the Parliament. What's not democratic about the EU Parliament?
>>78981014
>I can't win a debate
>it must be because the other guys didn't read wikipedia like me
>>78980955
Posting your relic of a queen is rhetoric in England? No wonder it voted out, why with Boris and his flashy £350 bus n all.
>>78981211
The same thing as the USSR House of Representatives. It doesn't form the legislature or executive.
>>78981014
You could always take up professional shilling instead of doing it only part time.
>>78957802
My area got 70 million pounds in funding from fundingfromthe eu .
All the people running it was corrupt. 70 million pounds paid for a thousand houses to get knocked down. And a very small buissness park with cheap rates for the very same buisness people who recieved the funding. The locals? A few got Minnimum wage apprenticeships and minimum wage jobs. Fucking stinks
>>78980516
Thanks germanbro. Nice to find someone with a functioning brain in here.
>>78981528
>pounds in funding from fundingfromthe eu .
did u just have a seizure?
>>78981014
>It's a lost battle.
Because people don't agree with you?
>>78980335
Greece was literally bankrupt. You cannot expect to receive billions in loans and still be the one to set the rules. I'm not even going to answer the rest of your questions, that's enough idiocy for today.
Go fuck yourself paki.
>>78981861
it's in its mess because of the fucking euro.
If it had its own currency it could atleast devalue the euro and not go into horrible recession.
How can you not be a eurosceptic at this point? The EU is a failed state.
>>78981363
I graduated in English from the Times number one rated university in the homeland of English. Trust me, if I want someone to think a certain way, I know what to write. Whether I'm right or wrong is irrelevant. Only winning matters.
and now, instead of frexit, itxit, holxit, czexit, huxit, fixit, what about to make a single simpler task:
EUXIT
(exit EU from Europe, keep Europe and it's national states and traditions... both cannot survive, either will survive Europe with it's roots and it's people, or will survive EU and it's new imported light-brown non-nation of Caglieri plan...)
>>78980644
>faggots like you
Never once I said the referendum should be ignored. They made their own bed, they should lie in it. How would it conflict with EU law if the treaties grant every contry the right of secession? Any jewish tricks, as of today, have come from the Leave campaign.
>>78981528
Yeah, better still, where did that money come from?
>It was us.
>>78982108
McDonald's University?
>>78981861
If they don't accept the rules then you don't give them loans, that's how it should have been done. Now the Greek government has mandate to ignore paying back because the citizenry never agreed to the terms. Good luck.
>>78959764
Even Americans get it unlike mainlanders, """socialists""" and """intellectuals"""
>>78980731
Then go write a groundbreaking new theory and revolutionize the field of political science for centuries to come. Until then, we're stuck with what we have now.
>>78958260
t. Shillberto Barbostein
>>78981530
Your brain functioning is inhibited by brainwashing. You aren't intelligent. You're a mindless drone for a corpse of an ideology. One that is permanently dead in this country, and hopefully soon in America too when we get Trump elected.
>>78982379
I don't need to. We will have British parliamentary democracy till the end of time and it will serve us perfectly well.
>>78968187
fuck off you spinelass cuck I hope bomber harris comes back from the dead and does a fucking dresden on the entirety of germany
>>78958531
Last one was intentionally "advisory" and not legally binding. A number of caveats are in there too regarding the decision making process.
Can't see them going back on it now but might explain the delay in pressing the article 50 exit button.
>>78982285
Durham.
>>78980766
>Multilayer voting is a bastard child of representative democracy, especially when there's absolutely no reason why for the system to be such.
I completely agree with you. But there are people here saying the EU is literally a fascist organization. Idiots, pure and simple.
>My advise to you is, since you're studying EU law, either start advocating for a more transparent political system or start considering employment elsewhere.
I am pro-EU, against a European Federation. And yes, the problem of transparency is a very big one and I've been hearing it for years. Every insider knows it and they've been trying to find ways to become closer to the population for a very long time.
>>78977651
They should be marching to the other durka countries.
>>78963038
Well the majority got the Brexit vote right when all the elites wanted Remain to win.
>>78982201
I was talking about referendums in general. As soon as someone suggests taking a topic to a referendum in Sweden, it gets shot down before it can even get there because "wouldn't matter, EU laws" and as you can imagine, this gives people a pretty shitty view about how democratic the EU is. You could blame it on politicians and pundits just pointing to the EU so it's "out of their hands" or whatever, but it has a real effect on swaying people to the EU-sceptic side.
>>78982895
>fascist
Ctrl-F "fascist". One result. Can you make even one post without lying Mr Strawman?
>>78982895
It is fascist. It is a top down hierarchy with no input from the bottom and no government accountability.
>>78980806
How is number 2 a lie? No one forced you at gunpoint to join the EU.
And number 3 also true for the simple fact that prior to joining the EU, most member-states adapted their constitutions.
>>78982895
>I completely agree with you. But there are people here saying the EU is literally a fascist organization. Idiots, pure and simple.
I ctrl-f'd ''fascist'', and besides you, there literally aren't.
>I am pro-EU, against a European Federation. And yes, the problem of transparency is a very big one and I've been hearing it for years. Every insider knows it and they've been trying to find ways to become closer to the population for a very long time.
Every outsider knows it too I'm afraid. A fact with which you seem to have a hard time coping with.
>>78963668
If the people coming in were actual refugees from ACTUAL SYRIA I would agree, but the fact is Syrians are a minority among asylum seekers, nobody knows what is going on beyond "Quick, save all the brown people!".
Then you get called racist for trying to filter these people and worrying about a horde of military aged males coming from 3rd world war zones rife with terrorism.
>>78962114
>>78962351
Will of the people
In our Countries the government is seperated into 3 branches to stop the Legislator and Executive from denying the will of the people. The Constitution in both countries spells it out pretty simple, ... chosen by the people, don't be tyrannical, gov hasn't got those power's...
The EU is a dictator state if it has the power to ignore the will or choice of the people. Your Constitution is worthless if your advocating decisions to evade a vote as good.
>>78982895
>I am pro-EU, against a European Federation.
Your delusions will soon be shown for what they are if you think the EU can be reformed. It is designed with one purpose: federalisation. Whatever they call it, that is de facto what you will end up with. A federal state with Turkey at one end and Libyan Italy at the other.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/683739/EU-referendum-German-French-European-superstate-Brexit
It's undemocratic because all the important stuff that people want to vote for (like immigration) have been written into laws without any democratic input. You cant tell Britain that it doesn't matter how many times they vote to lower immigration numbers it will never happen, and then bang on about how democratic they are. They will let you vote on shit you don't about though. I'm sure elected representatives get a say in stationery orders and crap like that
>>78980902
Member-states choose their commissionary, EU Parliament approves. Indirect democracy.
The Parliament does not ask permission to pass legislation. The Commission proposes legislation, and the Parliament analyses it and decides if it should be approved or not.
>>78964325
Couldn't have said it better myself
>>78980929
>confusing election by parliament with approval by parliament is a capital sin
Maybe if I weren't so
>>78983293
>How is number 2 a lie? No one forced you at gunpoint to join the EU.
The British people were polled in 1975 about whether they wanted to join the EEA. Since then treaty after treaty has been railroaded through by stealth until we have ended up with what we have now.
>And number 3 also true for the simple fact that prior to joining the EU, most member-states adapted their constitutions.
Firstly, we don't want or need our contitution adapted. Secondly, if the Portuguese parliament passes a law that goes against EU directives or treaties, can it or can it not enforce that law? For example, if it wants to shut its borders to free movement of people. Or if it wants to deport a terrorist, which takes precedence: your own supreme court or the ECJ?
>>78983662
Yes, the members are appointed by the governments of the nation-states. They are essentially unelected bureaucrats. The fact that they have the power to propose legislation is completely absurd and undemocratic.
>>78980999
Can you organize an election and vote your president out? By your defenition, there is no democracy in the US.
>>78983662
>Indirect democracy.
That's not democracy any more than the DPRK is democratic.
>>78984115
What? US presidents can be voted out of office.
>>78964566
>39 posts by this ID
Sorry Mama Merkel, but the UK doesn't wanna house any more of your adopted Muslim migrants.
>>78983831
I never said it was a capital sin. I said it was false, which it was. The Commission isn't elected. Not by the people, not by parliament.
I'm gonna have to give your teacher a call if you're getting rekt this bad by a mongolian meme enthusiast posting buck naked at 3AM local time.
>>78984115
The American president is directly elected by the people. You cannot compare it to the EU.
>>78982431
whats this whole t. meme?
I leave for 6 months and now everyone is posting this shit everywhere.
>>78984115
The people can demand their representative vote to impeach the president. If they don't follow that vote we can vote against them in the next election and put in somebody that will. On top of that we actually vote for our president unlike the EU president so any reason to vote them out would be because they've failed their position.
