A few things about the EU Referendum are confusing me.
Firstly, I believe in open borders. No-one seems to agree with me on this, and even I accept that for the next few hundred years perhaps, it isn't a viable option.
So for now, we have borders. But in the EU, we cannot restrict movement. This means our "quota" is quickly filled with EU migrants, so non-EU migrants find it very hard to move here and are sometimes unfairly deported.
Blah, blah, blah, we've heard this argument before from the Leave camp.
But my question is this - why are Remain voters unwilling to listen to/unable to understand this argument?
I understand that there are plenty of stupid Leave voters who (incorrectly) think that leaving will "stop dem bloody immigrants!", but why do otherwise well-educated and intelligent remain supporters ignore this argument?
Leaving the EU is the closest we'll get to no borders, so my reason for voting leave is the exact opposite of "racism", it is to remove our racist/xenophobic immigration policy. If you support and believe in immigration (I believe it is the most important thing about the human race) then you would obviously vote leave right?
But remain voters don't seem to get this. Why?
Is it stupidity? Is it inability to admit they're wrong? Choice-supportive bias?
This issue applies to other areas of the debate too, but this is the most obvious example.
I guess no-one gives a shit then.
Might vote Remain after all.
>>78042281
>Firstly, I believe in open borders.
Well... to each his own.
>Leaving the EU is the closest we'll get to no borders
Arguable. You conflate two issues. The one is the "racism" to prefer EU migration over non-EU migration and the other is the Schengen, the actual no-border thing. Ofc you are not part of the Schengen agreement but only take part in the freedom of movement of the EU itself. And this allows for immigration already to a large degree (even if you don't have a job immediately); it's effectively an open-border policy.
Also, I'm not so sure if all the remain voters are actually so keen on immigration. It's probably a lot of virtue signaling and PC conformity.
>>78043631
Don't slam the door on you're way out Mr well-educated and intelligent.
>>78042281
>If you support and believe in immigration (I believe it is the most important thing about the human race)
>I believe it is the most important thing about the human race
I know that's not what your thread is about, but aren't you exaggerating there a lot? Why would immigration be so fundamentally important?! In modern times it has been mostly destructive.
>>78044910
"your" not "you're". And I'm saying I'm voting Leave you fucking idiot.
>>78042281
>But my question is this - why are Remain voters unwilling to listen to/unable to understand this argument?
Remain voters are not thinking or reasoning, they are simply either:
1) Scared
2) Thinking remain = status quo (not full steam ahead EU and elimination of national identities/culture)
3) They think the idea of the EU is good, therefore things it implements must be good.
"Leavers" by their very nature question what they are brainwas^H^H^H told, and consider practicalities and unintended consequences, not just the "moral character" of the EU project.
>>78044654
You understand though that we removed Tier 1 visas largely because of increased EU immigration, making it much harder for non-EU nationals to move here?
That's all I'm saying. It "levels the playing field" so to speak if we leave.
You've come up with a genius point about remain voters not being too keen on immigration either there. Can't believe I didn't think of that! I think you've hit the nail on the head there my friend.
>>78044917
Yes, I should start a "no borders" thread separately, but in brief, all human progress has been made due to immigration. Otherwise we'd all still be fucking about in sub-Saharan Africa.
>>78045243
Don't blame him, it's probably the 20-odd years of grade inflation and ruined state education system.
>>78045503
You're probably right there to an extend.
Like I say though, while a lot of Remain voters do fit that description, a lot don't.
A lot DO question what they are told and consider the pros and cons. They just can't seem to be able to see past some aspects.
>>78045618
>all human progress has been made due to immigration
Explain to me why this mean immigration is desirable for me, in the country I am currently living in.
I would argue that competition for food, resources, and mates has also spurred most of human achievement, this doesnt mean I should be happy about someone stealing my property, eating the food from my fridge, or kidnapping my girlfriend, whether or not it "advances the society" or not.
>>78042281
>Firstly, I believe in open borders.
go back to fucking twitter and gas yourself you filthy traitor
>>78045965
We should probably save this for another thread, but this is my "joker" I play whenever I mention this.
It always goes like this:
>Me: I believe in open borders
>Friend: Why? People will just come over an expect free housing and food and state benefits, how will we cope with that?
>Me: I never said anything about paying for them.
That's the crux of it - open borders does NOT equal free fucking handouts.
>>78045774
Of the 100% of remain voters, I would guess that:
20% are "hardened" Europhiles, they honestly, honestly think the EU has the right plan.
50% aren't sure what to vote for... and remain feels safer that leave
30% are afraid, they probably don't understand world trade, the economy, geopolitics, and have been scared into voting to remain.
>>78046482
I agree. If there are no benefits, no safety net, then market forces can work their magic. No jobs? Then after the first 1000 people starve on the streets, the next 1000 will re-consider staying in the UK, and the 1000 after that wont bother coming here. The problem is that Europe, and the UK in particular has a safety-net set very very high. Healthcare, schooling, welfare, disability benefits, not to mention the various good works done by charities. This is undoubtedly a huge pull for the immigrant, if only it was warmer here they would be even more of them.
Meanwhile it is an observable fact that we cannot cope with these newcomers. Schools, NHS, cultural differences, every aspect.
>>78046513
>Remain voters are not thinking or reasoning
>Majority of scientists, top economists, EU law experts, educational institutions have supported remain
>not thinking or reasoning
Okay m8
>>78047244
The scientists/economists/etc would be the 20%.
Some genuinely believe the EU is working, some also have vested interests. I'm dead against conspiracy theories, but if your job/income relies on the UK remaining in the EU, you're not exactly going to campaign for leave are you?
>>78045618
>You understand though that we removed Tier 1 visas largely because of increased EU immigration, making it much harder for non-EU nationals to move here?
Yes, I understand that, you prick. That's what your thread is about.
You still haven't explained why you think remain voters are honest about their stance on immigration. You know how public debate works.
>>78046960
I don't think it would even be 1000.
Places like Bulgaria seem to manage just fine. Medical insurance up front, and you're good to go.
As for "cultural differences" and crimes committed by migrants - these are irrelevant. FGM, sexual abuse, assault, etc are still illegal. We have laws in place to deal with this anyway.
>>78042281
>I believe in open borders
>clearly never come into contact with muslim immigrants
>>78048481
I'm simply not understanding your question.
I'm saying Remain voters AREN'T honest about immigration.
They either know leaving is much fairer for immigrants but are unwilling to change their mind. Or, they secretly want less immigration but can't say it publicly as it's not "PC".
>>78048786
I have, and what does that have to do with anything?
Being a hardline extremist Muslim who plans terrorist plots, preaches hate, abuses his wife, mutilates his daughters genitals, and is part of a pedophile ring, is still illegal in the UK.
The police and courts need to be less worried about causing "offence" and arrest these fucks.
Also worth noting that the vast majority of Muslims in the UK aren't like this at all, and most were also born here. They're as British as me and you, you fucking idiot.
>>78047244
I am talking about the general public, not the politicians and those card carrying members of the remain campaign.
What about the negative effects of the EU? Lets go crazy for an instant...what if the EU somehow caused the price of milk to go up to £10 per pint. You think that Richard Branson would feel that? What about a top economist? What about a lawyer living in a leafy surrey village, when he's not in his London apartment.
I am in my 40s, I own a business, employ people, we mostly work with UK firms but do some business in Europe and expect to do more in the future. I have been fortunate enough to work in Japan and the US, Israel, and the UK. For my business it would probably benefit us to remain, but I'm voting leave. Why? Because its not all about money.
Oh, and although politicians like to make out that EU membership somehow magically makes it "easy to trade", I can tell you this is a meme. Even inside the EU the road is paved with bureaucratic landmines. Dont take my word for it though, look at the catastrophe that is EU VAT:
https://blog.mythic-beasts.com/2014/12/19/the-eu-vat-mess-again/
>>78048676
>As for "cultural differences" and crimes committed by migrants - these are irrelevant. FGM, sexual abuse, assault, etc are still illegal. We have laws in place to deal with this anyway.
When barbaric and uncivilised people come into your country, they will do barbaric and uncivilised things. Incase you hadnt noticed, our "Dixon of Dock Green" force of bobbies are not equipped-for or used-to dealing with these newcomers. I would much rather these crimes do not become commonplace at all.
>>78042281
>I believe in open borders
mate just stop..if you really still believe this...just vote remain..there is no saving you
>>78049051
no i mean living near a muslim area and coming into contact with people that dont see you as a fellow brit
people that have no intention of integrating unlike every other form of immigrant
>>78049485
What a treat! Sriracha!
>>78049051
I dont think you appreciate that Islam is not merely a religion, in the normal sense people use the word in the UK.
It is a complete system for living. Economic, legal, military, societal, and yes...religious. This makes it incompatible with western secular democracy, hence we are having all these problems with muslims choosing to run their own state-within-a-state and all which that entails.
Although everyone is an individual (good, bad, in-between), you cant make policy on an individual basis.
>>78049357
>>78049602
>>78050007
But this isn't reason to stop them coming in.
Tell them they're perfectly welcome, but if they want to start Sharia, they can get fucked.
>>78049108
Amen brother.
>>78048841
>I'm simply not understanding your question.
I didn't ask a question. I gave an attempt of a very simple explanation.
>I'm saying Remain voters AREN'T honest about immigration.
No, you didn't. In your OP you were listing
>stupidity
>unreasonableness
>Choice-supportive bias
Admittedly, later you were being a sarcastic dick on exactly that argument.
>They either know leaving is much fairer for immigrants but are unwilling to change their mind.
That's where you have to give us some more information. What's their reaction when confronted with your argument?
>Or, they secretly want less immigration but can't say it publicly as it's not "PC".
Simplest answer. Occam's razor.
>>78042281
>firstly I believe in open borders
Stopped reading after that.
Sage in EV ER Y field.
My main reason for leaning towards Remain: Leave camp don't have a fucking plan...
It's always "something will come along", "it will be alright", "common sense will prevail" etc nothing concrete. And whenever asked about any detail about what would have after a Brexit it get deflected into an argument about how bad the EU is.
Hell even the Scots had a bloody 650 page White Paper in their referendum. Where is the post-Brexit plan?
>>78050632
I'm quite sure everyone does believe in open borders. Just that we disagree on the time and global political climate.
>>78046482
So what about the massive devaluation of labour?
>>78050289
>Tell them they're perfectly welcome, but if they want to start Sharia, they can get fucked.
Sadly you are several decades too late. Roy Jenkins, British home secretary and architect of British multiculturalism, decided that people that come here no-longer needed to integrate.
What he didnt realise at the time, is that the core values of our democracy would be threatened by his decision.
If you can find the time... you should see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf6Kol0GCOw
...and the rest of that series.
>>78051128
>So what about the massive devaluation of labour?
Cling time to your belief that "labor" has worth... hint... the robots are coming... physical labor will worth almost nothing in 20 years
>>78048467
Perhaps not, but I'm loathe to believe that the aforementioned groups support remain solely because of their jobs/income either. Do you think they're going to have trouble getting work?
>>78049108
I agree, it's not just about money. Likewise I agree that there are negative aspects to the EU.
That being said, things aren't going to magically get better if we leave either, and nobody knows what will happen if we do. There's an entire country's worth of law to rewrite, which cannot be handled by elected officials alone and will have to be devolved to our own government, hardly the most effective, efficient nor ethical of bodies. We'll have to renegotiate any trade agreements that we made originally via the EU, which - as it turns out - is most, if not all of them. We'll likely have to pay the same amount and jump through the same hoops just to access the EU single market again (along with all that entails, including free movement within the EU).
But there is no plan. No exit strategy. Just the platitude that "everything will be alright" and "we'll be able to stand on our own two feet" and "we'll all feel half an inch taller". Well no, sorry. That's not good enough. Not worth risking an entire country's future on.
>>78050412
I was offering those things as possible suggestions. Like you say, it was half sarcastic, but I think choice supportive bias is the main reason.
When I ask them, they won't answer. Change the subject, or just ignore it, give a half-hearted/defeated "hmm, yeah I suppose" then quickly move on.
>>78051035
I read the 650 page Scottish referendum doc, it was the single most underwhelming document I think I have ever read. I was amazed Scots voted "out" in such numbers, I can only assume most of them never read the doc.
On the matter of our present EU referendum, is it not within "Leave's" influence to describe what Britain will go on to do, as "Leave" are not a party anyone can vote-for in the general election. Indeed, it may be that (though unlikely) none of the prominent "Leavers" for a part of any future government or have the ability to influence or decide any post-EU strategy.
I also note that the EU itself produces no prospectus, and in-fact closely guards its future plans, taking all measures to ensure that the general public do not come to learn of them.
>>78051737
His argument is still valid. He didn't restrict immigration to physical labour. Could as well devalue the good jobs. Just saying.
>>78051035
Not sure you're right there, but not sure you're wrong either so will have to concede.
Bear in mind that the Leave camp is largely being led by Boris and Gove, with Farage bringing up the rear.
No matter what the result, Boris is likely to be the next PM, with Gove standing beside him.
Farage and UKIP are likely to be the third or possibly second biggest party at the next election too.
Like them or hate them, we're fucking stuck with them anyway.
>>78051737
The burger is right on that, robots, AI, and the continued subsumption of once-physical things (CDs etc) into the digital economy will be an existential crisis for many. Just wait until 3D printing is done in the home.
Add to this the problem of private and sovereign debt, shortages of food and space, the end of antibiotics, and its going to be an interesting 25 years.
However, I still think immigration must be carefully managed if it is to benefit all (including immigrants). We are not digging canals any more, we have no need for 10000 young men with strong backs and a work ethic, we simply arent running that kind of an economy any more.
>>78051128
Expand on this?
You're free to move about the EU or United States and work where you so choose - some areas are richer, some poorer as a result.
If free movement of labour means cheaper labour, so be it. You're not "entitled" to anything. Life's tough. If someone is willing to do your job just as well for half the wage, that's your problem. And anyway, as the cost of labour drops, so does the cost of living.
I never said this would be a utopia, just that it would be fair. Bringing it back to the EU, this is where experiments like this fail. They go in with good intentions (free movement of trade and people, even a single currency had good intentions), but then people get greedy and politicians want to make it a perfect world where everyone is equal and the wealth is shared. That's why the EU is fucked.
>>78042281
>Firstly, I believe in open borders
Stopped reading here.
GTFO of my /pol
>>78051047
Why not go all the way. Open front doors.
>>78053333
The problem is society isn't a level playing field.
I have a highly skilled specialist job requiring degrees and many years of experience (which I have put in) I can work just about anywhere in the world and have done on 3 continents. I have little or nothing to fear (job wise) from immigrants. However 90% of the rest of Bongland are not in my situation.
As people who pay for their country through taxes (and therefore pay for the EU), you are going to have a hard time convincing them that uncontrolled immigration of people who can do their job, but who will work at a fraction of their price, is something they should vote for.
Should not the priority of the national government be the protection of (and increase in) standard of living for its peoples? How does my government allowing-in cheaper foreign workers help my standard of living? How does me having less disposable income help me spend more money on goods and services here in the UK in our own internal market?
You see that is one thing often politicians forget. Corporation tax is small and easily made smaller. Income tax is not. If your countrymen have less earnings they pay less tax. They also spend less money with businesses. You must replace this "lost" revenue as a government somehow, export-lead recovery? Where have we heard that before? "Bicycles for negroes?". How about even more borrowing?
>>78042281
> colonialism is bad m'kay
> open borders is good m'kay
> the world is overpopulated. This is bad m'kay
> we need to let more people inhabit a small island. It worked really well for Easter Island XD lol
What could possibly go wrong with open borders. It's the right thing to do you racist cis shitlords! Reeeeee
